September 19, 2025 • 40 mins
Daily Practices for a Grounded Life
The Unstuck Movement 🔥 with Malisa Hepner
What if the trauma you’ve carried for years could be transformed into light, connection, and self-acceptance? In this episode, Malisa Hepner shares her powerful journey of overcoming complex PTSD, learning to quiet the noise of trauma, and stepping into authenticity. You’ll walk away with practical tools, soulful reflections, and a renewed belief that healing is possible.
This episode is with Malisa Hepner.
Malisa is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) with extensive experience in therapeutic settings. Malisa’s journey of personal healing has equipped her with unique insights and practical tools that she now shares with others. With a commitment to fostering resilience and empowerment, Malisa leverages her professional expertise and lived experiences to inspire and guide communities toward meaningful change.
Find out more about Malisa Hepner by visiting: https://linktr.ee/Mdhepner
🔑Rob Z Wentz is a Leadership Communication Expert. Rob teaches, trains, and develops people and organizations to become exceptional communicators and leaders. With Rob, leaders find clarity, take action, and succeed with integrity, making them “the expert” in their industry.
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Discover everything about Rob Z 📲 Linktr.ee/RobZWentz
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🔑Rob is also a Christian entrepreneur, founder of The Unstuck Movement (on all social & podcast platforms), best-selling author, social media marketer and strategist, award-winning radio personality, speaker, and influencer. For over 20 years Rob has been leading people to communicate at a higher level.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:25):
Welcome back to the Unstuck movement.
As always, I am your host, Rob Z.
These are always true testimonies of breakthrough.
So you can find breakthrough in your life with whatever you are
going through. Today we have the incredible
Melissa Hepner with us on the show.
We're going to be talking recovering from trauma today,
quieting that noise in your head, building that self
connection, emotional hygiene, imperfection and authenticity.
(00:51):
It's going to be a powerful conversation.
And Melissa, I want to start off, you talk about CPTSDI think
we all know what PTSD is. I've never heard CPTSD so I'm
excited just to understand what that is and also how you realize
that you were living with CPTSD.Well thank you so much for
(01:11):
having me. The C in CPTSD stands for
complex. So the most distinct way for me
to explain that is like a chronic, like ongoing trauma.
And so PTSD really deals with maybe a period of time, like a
short period of time. Like, that's why, you know,
(01:32):
veterans were kind of the first for trauma to be studied in at
least like in a way that the general public was hearing about
it. And the way I heard about it,
'cause I mean, I didn't hear about PTSD until late 90s and it
was only in veterans. And then as the research really
expanded, it uncovered the fact that chronic or complex trauma
(01:56):
is like multiple events, a longer period of time.
However, you would want to understand chronic for yourself.
I don't want to get too specificin that part just because I, I
feel like we have a natural tendency to kind of minimalize
and trivialize our experiences and especially our trauma.
(02:18):
So I mean, for myself, it was really like an entire childhood.
Like there was just not one day that was peaceful in, in 18
years time. And so that's where my complex
trauma really came from. I can't remember what your
second part of that question was.
My second part was how did you remember or how did you realize
(02:40):
that you were were living with it?
Was there something, I, I guess this might be more of a simple
question, I guess, but realizingthat you're you're living with
CPTSDI think that the the big thing, the reason I'm asking
that is we can, like you said, trivial, trivialize our trauma
and not realize the scope of of how we are, why we are the way
(03:04):
that we are. So was there something a moment
or multiple moments? It helps you to realize like
this is really something I need to to handle.
Well, like a lot of trauma survivors, I was internalizing
so much. And when you internalize so
much, you're very reactive. And that's where we see a lot of
this like need for anger management.
(03:25):
And I was really a part of that and very in public freeze or
fond in the middle of a conflict.
But then taking it out on the people who were like the closest
to me. That was the thing that I
carried the most shame about washow quick I would just snap at
somebody, somebody I was close to anyway.
(03:45):
I mean, I messed up a lot of friendships like that just from
and also then hiding in shame from it and not knowing how to
apologize. But I think what really like
made me aware that I wasn't justa crazy person and there was an
actual internal process happening was somewhere around
like 2016. I don't know if you're familiar
(04:06):
with the holistic psychologist. I think her real name is doctor,
doctor Nicola Pera. I think she was getting really
big on Instagram and that was really my my gateway into
understanding complex trauma and, or, or trauma really in
general. And she was just putting out
little info graphics that resonated so deeply with me that
(04:30):
I was like, wait a second. I'm not crazy.
I'm not just mean because I was like raised around a
narcissistic grandma who really just love to break my heart with
the things she said about what anot good person I was because
I've been reactive my whole life.
But I mean, the trauma started in infancy.
(04:51):
So like it was something I carried a lot of shame about.
And those narratives just compounded it over and over and
over. So like to finally see anyone in
this universe talking about thisin a way that meant like, I'm
not a bad person and recovery aspossible because I had tried all
the things that I knew very little.
(05:12):
I had no coping skills whatsoever.
And so the information that I had even from education wasn't
cutting it. And so I thought I'm, I'm just a
bad person. Like this is just who I am and
really just identified really negatively.
And so getting that information was kind of the gateway to like,
OK, I know that there's an internal process that I need to
(05:35):
work with instead of just assuming I'm a bad person.
Yeah, I'm really excited to talkabout this.
There's something I want to you.You.
You made me think of something recently that's happened to me
that gave me some awareness and I want to dive into that here in
a second before we go any further.
So I want to welcome everybody to the show, the unstuck
movement. I created this platform, this
movement because we all get stuck at different places in our
(05:56):
lives and breakthrough is everything.
I'd love to have true testimony to breakthrough, to prove to you
wherever you're at in life, personally, professionally, that
it's possible to find breakthrough.
It is possible. It's necessary that you get
unstuck. We have to keep growing, have
that growth mindset, not that fixed mindset.
And so that's why this platform exists.
We're sponsored by the ConnectedLeaders Academy.
(06:16):
Make sure you check out connected to leadersacademy.com
over 500 heart centered entrepreneurs all over the world
helping each other grow and alsothe pro podcaster Academy.
So if you're somebody who has been wanting to launch a podcast
for a long time, all the nuts and bolts, it just seems way too
complicated for you to do it. I'd love to help you figure out
number one, how to become the goto authority in your industry.
(06:37):
How do you become that go to expert?
How do you create a lasting impact on people's lives and
also create incredible personal and professional connections
through your platform? I want to help you launch that
podcast if you already have one.How do you streamline it, make
it easier to execute, and also how do you monetize it and make
it a real functional, revenue generating part of your
(06:57):
business? You can join the Pro Podcaster
Academy at robzwentz.com. Today With us is Melissa
Heffner, a therapist, podcast host, and speaker who helps
people move beyond trauma, overthinking, and perfectionism.
Through her lived experience andprofessional expertise, she
equips others with tools to livemore grounded, compassionate,
(07:20):
and joyful lives. So I wanted to share Melissa.
Just recently my my wife pointedout to me that sometimes I'll
have like these what seem like way over the top reactions to
things that don't necessarily warrant an over the top
reaction. Usually it's in anger and, and
(07:41):
some sort of like outburst that it seems out of place with the
thing that's happening. And we were talking about this
and I'll be honest with you, it like something clicked for me.
It was like nobody had ever seenme like that before.
Like I'm sure people have seen me do this, but if you weren't
(08:04):
close to me, you probably would never see it.
And her awareness, because she'sa counselor herself, her
awareness of like, I think there's something going on like
in your past that's kind of you're, you're kind of like
stuck in something here that is causing you to have these like
unnecessarily big reactions. So instead of her taking it
personally, she turned it aroundand was like, let's, let's
(08:26):
figure this out, let's work through this.
And I, and I was like, wow, it actually, it brought tears in my
eyes 'cause I was like, I don't,nobody ever saw that before.
They never pointed it out. And so now I'm on the path of
I've been in in therapy in the past, other things, but this is
like a whole new Ave. of like, OK, you're right.
There's something here, some sort of block, some sort of
(08:48):
trigger that I need to work through.
And whenever you said earlier, when we first started there,
when you said about you were I always, you know, getting angry
about something when you were younger, right?
It was like these these big outbursts and and you'd blow up
on people right now, like when you got older, you'd blow up on
people. It made me think, yeah, that's
there's something going on that's causing that to happen.
I just wanted to share that because I felt like that was to
(09:11):
me like, yeah, you're you're kind of confirming this new
onion layer that I'm peeling offof myself.
I just want to dive into that for you.
When, when this started to become a reality and you're
like, OK, there's some things I got to work through.
What were the, what was the process for you in, in, in going
through #1 the awareness and then the, the healing process.
(09:33):
I know that's a, that's a, that's a big question, but kind.
Of, you know, it's really not for me because I had kind of a,
a catalystic event where so I gained this knowledge, the
entryway into trauma in 2017, 1617.
I spent the next like six years or so attempting to regulate my
nervous system 'cause that's theonly information I was really
(09:56):
getting right. But I had no idea how to do
that. And I, like everybody else, was
relying on this finite amount ofself-control and discipline that
we are given in any given 24 hour period.
So it wasn't going well. Not a lot was changing, OK, like
I was becoming more introspective, but that almost
was worse because I'm very good at at self analysis.
(10:20):
Even if I'm doing it incorrectly, I can stay in my
head all day over analyzing stuff.
Same here. Yeah, so that's part of the
problem. Overanalyzing creates tension.
When you are tense, you are agitated.
And when you are agitated, anything external of you is a
threat to your safety. So what happened is I reached
(10:40):
the just the pinnacle of the mental health crisis in October
of 23. Like wanted to die, was making a
plan. I was not well.
And then because I for lots of reasons, set a date that was
further off in the future, I waslike, well, if we're going to
make make it to that date, like something's got to give.
So like at first I was just kindof moving little pieces like I'm
(11:02):
trying to focus on my sleep, I'mfocusing on water.
You know, like you really do have to tend to your physical
needs first. The hierarchy of needs is there
for a reason. So I was trying to do that,
trying to minimize my stress, which wasn't going well either.
So I kind of just started in like creativity that I didn't
really access before. I wasn't great at what I was
(11:24):
doing, but it would at least getme into a flow state.
Quit the job that was being verytoxic for my mental health, gave
up some friends that were toxic for my mental health and then
started my podcast. It was truly my podcast that
saved me because the guests thatI've had on, but the the life
changing, life altering, nothing's ever been the same
since. Information that I got that
(11:44):
really just put me on this path is a lady named Jenny Kempton
was on my show. She works for a guy named Troy
Love in Arizona. He has a counseling agency.
She's one of his therapist. He developed a method called the
Finding Peace method. He wrote a book called the
Finding Peace Workbook. The information that saved me
(12:07):
was a couple of things. 1 He breaks shame down into different
archaeotypes. The crux of my issues was that I
had these narratives that I thought were just me using
negative self talk that were just happening all the time and
and I felt like it was differentparts of my personality
screaming at each other. But the way he breaks it can.
(12:29):
You kind of explain that a little bit like the different
archetypes. Yeah, so there there's this
archetype that the easiest one is the judge, because we all do
this like, you know that you know better, you shouldn't have
done that. So that would come in and then
the royal who it blames everyoneexternal of you so that we don't
have to feel the shame. It protects you from that.
(12:51):
So my judge would come and be like, Melissa, you knew better
because it was always just like,I'm screaming at my kid or my
spouse or whatever, you know, better.
And then the Royals like, yeah, but if they hadn't done that,
then I wouldn't have done that. And then here comes the judge,
like, yeah. But you know, and then there's
the martyr that that one's easy.It's like, you know, well, I
have to or, you know, no one else will do it.
(13:13):
And there is the impotent one, which is just that really deep,
dark, depressing, hopeless guy who's like, I don't know why
you're even trying. It's never going to get better.
And then one that I used a lot. And this is really our shadow of
shame that enables like addictive behaviors, dopamine
seeking, self sabotage. It's called the rebel.
(13:33):
So the rebel is actually what I used the most to absolutely lose
my ever loving mind on people because it was the only way to
get the things inside of my headto shut up.
So the the royal and the judge are fighting with each other.
And then my rebel would come in to be like, shut up.
And then outwardly I'm like, if you, you know, the whole gamut
of cussing at whoever's in frontof me.
(13:55):
And so understanding that helpedme to unravel what the key
narratives that are behind thosereally were, which is like, I'm
too much and not enough. I have the weight of the world
on my shoulders to to help like with nobody to help me carry it.
Like I have all of this. I am alone in my suffering, in
my struggle and at my core I uncovered the fact that I really
(14:22):
did feel like a fundamental F up, but also fundamentally
unlovable. And as I started to unravel
those, I could actually hear theexact like voice of the the the
royal and what it was saying andthe judge and what it was
saying. I thought because I have
(14:43):
schizophrenia in my family, I truly thought I was going
through psychosis before I got this information because it the
IT had gotten that loud. It was just a very loud place to
be. And what this book does is it
teaches you how to externalize all those narratives and give it
a character, give it, give it a personality, whatever, so you
can understand this isn't yourself talk.
(15:03):
This is your programming that you received in childhood.
And then it also broke down attachment wounding a lot better
to where I got to where I understood what was being
triggered when I was triggered. So it's just those basic
attachment wounds, abandonment, rejection, neglect, betrayal,
abuse. But it helped me understand so
much because something that I lived in 24/7 was betrayal and
(15:26):
neglect. Because anytime something
happened and I realized it really was like me creating all
these expectations because I feel like we, we love in the way
that we want to be loved and we're not communicating any of
that. And when we do that, we are
creating a social contract full of expectations between you and
(15:46):
whoever else you are people pleasing with or betraying
yourself for. And in that contract, in my
mind, we, we signed that in blood.
You made a, you made a promise and you better follow through.
So when the expectation is not met, I'm betrayed.
And I, I kind of, you know, thisis where victim consciousness
really comes in, where you startto understand, like, I have
(16:07):
created a life of victimhood because there's a big difference
between saying I feel betrayed and you betrayed me.
Like, it's OK if I feel betrayed.
I have this huge betrayal wound from parents who were incredibly
inconsistent. They were addicts.
They both died. I mean, they abandoned me.
There was all kinds of stuff there.
I'm allowed to be triggered and to experience that trigger, but
(16:31):
I'm not allowed to put that blame on someone else.
And so those were really the twobig pieces that changed
everything for me. Of course, I couldn't regulate.
Before, I didn't know what was causing the dysregulation.
Now I do. So I know exactly what's coming
up and I know what to do with that.
(16:52):
I really like you said you were allowed to feel triggered
because man, that word's just soit's such a buzzword.
It's been for years now in our culture, right and and and
triggered. We look at that as like, I'm
triggered, so something has to happen because I'm triggered.
That has to happen externally, right?
The thing that triggered me externally, something has to
happen to it because I'm triggered.
(17:13):
And I love what you're saying islike I'm you're allowed to feel
triggered. Like the stuff that happened in
the past. And this is, this is so good
because I've thought for years, like, well, this stuff's going
to stop eventually. These, these like you said about
the royal and the different archetypes when you were naming
them, like, Oh yeah, that's whatyou do in your head.
You, you know, you get angry andthen I blame externally and then
(17:34):
I feel some shame and blaming. So I turn the shame, I turn the
blame back onto me. And it's just like this, like
topsy turvy. Pointless.
Perpetual cycle, right? That agitates me, and then I'm
agitated. Yes, that's really good.
When you're agitated again, everything external of you is a
threat to your safety. Yeah.
And so I have to go like retreat, like either working out
(17:56):
was always, always works well for me is like it's like the
mindset shift, something that just like breaks that pattern.
But I know like that can't be this can't be the case all the
time. Like, like there has to be a way
to deal with this. So you just saying that and
being triggered because I would think like, OK, I'm getting
upset about something. This eventually will not happen
anymore. But that's not necessarily true.
(18:17):
This these triggers may always may might always.
They could go away at some point, but they might always pop
up but I don't have to react to them so.
I would say they will happen less frequently, but they will
always be there. Right, 'cause once you feed,
grows. So if you feed, if you get
triggered and you feed, it's gonna grow, but if you don't
feed it, it's not gonna grow. So, So going back to that
(18:40):
statement, I'm allowed to feel triggered.
What happens now that didn't happen before, when you still
still feel triggered? So understanding that I was
overthinking, overanalyzing, being up here, the word embodied
never made sense to me before. But the thing that happens
(19:03):
through all this trauma or just experiences in general, like
even if you're a person who doesn't recognize any traumatic
event in your childhood, nobody,and I mean nobody in Gen.
X or older was taught how to experience feelings.
We were told to rub some dirt onit and walk it off.
We were told to quit crying or we were given something to cry
(19:24):
about, blah, blah, blah. All the little euphemisms that
our parents said we can hold space for the fact that they did
the best they could while also understanding that we were not
taught to walk through emotionaldevelopmental milestones and
neither were they. They didn't have the
information. So I'm not here to like, shame,
or blame anyone, but it is what it is.
And So what we're used to doing is hopping right up here to try
(19:47):
to think through a problem. Life is meant to be experienced,
not thought about. And so when these things come
up, I had to learn. I didn't even realize how much I
lived in my head fighting with someone over something I wish I
had said. Or remorse over something I did
say just non-stop repeating, repeating, repeating.
(20:09):
And I had to learn how to get out of my head and I say into my
heart, into your body, experience the feelings.
So at first I was like, well, I don't even recognize what I'm
ever thinking because that's my constant state, right?
So I had to start cluing in physically and I would like, oh,
if my neck shoulders back are tense, I'm in my head like
(20:31):
that's my go to. Always, always.
I know if I'm tense, I'm in my head about something.
And I'm not saying that never happens still, but it is it is
much less frequently. But what I had to do at first,
none of the traditional grounding methods were working
for me because I could overthinkany of that.
Like if I'm having to sit and look at for five things, I can
(20:51):
point out that didn't work for me because two sides of my brain
were at war with each other likealways.
So what I started with was because I noticed over the
thinking happened more in the car because I'm quiet and you
know, I don't have anyone to talk to or whatever.
And so I, I was driving one day and I was like, oh crap, my back
hurts really bad. That means I'm overthinking.
(21:13):
What was I overthinking about? Oh, OK.
And then I was like, Oh yeah, no, I'm mad again.
And so I started just rapid firenaming things that I could see
in front of me, like the color of the car in front of me, the
color of the license plate, whatthe license plate said.
Only took about 3 or 4 things before I was now not thinking.
I was present in the moment. And then I said, OK, now we know
(21:36):
like out of our head into our heart.
And so I was like, what? What was I thinking about?
What was the feeling? Because I know which wound to
attach it to. And I was like, oh, rejected,
OK, let's feel it. And I was like, and it was the
first time I remember like it. I don't know if you've ever seen
that movie Ghost with Patrick Swayze, like, you know, Whoopi
(21:58):
Goldberg back in the, what, 80s,nineties.
Yeah. It felt like that.
It felt like entering my body for the first time, like in.
And that's the visual that I have too is like when I'm in my
head, I'm jumping out of my bodyand when I'm in my heart, I'm
back in and I'm embodied and I could actually feel.
And if you're not feeding your feelings with thoughts, they,
(22:18):
they move right through you in about 90 seconds.
But I just had to learn how not to.
But you have to get your brain still.
So like I said, the rapid fire naming stuff in front of me,
that really is still a tool I use.
If I, if I'm having trouble, I go straight to that because it's
a way to get very centered and present.
And then I just feel the feelingand, and I didn't used to know
(22:39):
what that meant. And so I had to start with like,
where in my do I feel any sensations in my body because I
did not know how to feel. I truly didn't.
And there's lots and lots of resources out there for
experiencing feelings. So I mean, that's like a whole
topic on itself. But that's what I had to do.
And then now that's the difference.
(22:59):
When I feel all of that coming up, I have to check in with my
physical needs. Did I drink water?
Do I need a nap? I heard someone say like, if you
hate everyone, then you need to eat.
If you feel like everybody hatesyou, you need to sleep.
If you feel like both first takea shower and then take a snack
and then a nap. Because like if there's a
(23:19):
biophysical response to things. And so that's kind of what I do
is I meet my physical needs and then I'm just making sure, like
in my, is this even worth the thought?
Like maybe I do just need to distract myself 'cause I have
hormones, it can make me overthink at any time.
Maybe it's nothing there, you know what I mean?
Well, yeah, 100% no, it's reallygood because I've noticed this
(23:39):
recently that I have a one year old and so I have a lot of
practice of like putting him to sleep.
There's a lot of time of just getting irritated.
Oh yeah. Yeah, Rock.
I rock him for 1/2 an hour, get up and put him down.
He wakes up, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I got to start the process
over again. So what I started doing, that's
(23:59):
kind of going with what you weresaying about like naming the
things in front of you. I just start counting.
I start at 500 and I just count backwards in my head and all the
stuff it, it tries to fight its way through.
This is just, I mean, this is probably just in the past couple
of months that I figured this out and it's been like really
helpful. I use it throughout the day now
(24:20):
if I get agitated or whatever, but it's, it's, it's like, yeah,
we, we don't. Trying to figure out your
thoughts with more thoughts is alosing battle.
At least I found for myself. It's like I just need to the the
counting backwards for me is like I'm present on counting and
(24:40):
I can do stuff while I'm counting it.
I can still do things. And those thoughts just like
dissipate. They just like they just go
away, right? And we and like you said that
then then they can process. I can process them.
They go away. They like go through me.
I'm not repressing them. I'm just, I'm just like getting
away from them, right? I'm not feeding them.
Yeah, because. There's a difference between
(25:02):
like the frustration you feel ina normal everyday thing and
being triggered, like in this big way.
I mean, we're going to get frustrated and there's.
Snow. It's snowball.
It's the snowball effect. Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. Some of it.
Your shame can be triggered whenyou can't put your kid to sleep.
It really can because, well, because I want to be able to do
(25:23):
this. Should I?
Should I? It makes you question if you're
not a person who's really good at trusting yourself.
Should I get angry? Trainers so.
I'll get angry and then I'll start getting upset at myself
for being that's. That's usually the process.
For every I could, I could relate that most things, the
process usually is I get angry at myself because I'm acting a
way that I don't want to act andthat triggers the shame and all
(25:45):
kinds of stuff. Yeah, absolutely.
Whereas like the anger is comingfrom somewhere and it's really
just like your container for frustrations, not big enough.
And that's something you can work on to get it to expand.
Like literally when I first started my podcast, I cried all
(26:05):
the time. Like the earliest episodes, my
voice is hoarse and raw from crying so badly over tech issues
because I had no capacity for frustration.
And I remember one day, because I'm super into astrology and all
of that, and I remember one day I was sitting there and I was, I
was wailing again over a tech issue.
(26:26):
And I was like, all right, I getit.
I get it, I get it. This isn't going to stop until I
quit acting like it's the end ofthe world every time something
small happens. So I literally just like decided
right then and there, like I'm not gonna care.
And I, and I just worked with itlike it was like, OK, so if I'm
(26:47):
a person who doesn't care, what's the next step?
I just work through the problem without making it bigger.
So it's the same thing. Like there doesn't have to be
something super fundamentally wrong because your container for
frustration isn't big. You know, it's just not
something, it's not a muscle youhave really flexed because kids
can bring this shit out. And you more than anything else,
(27:09):
it really shows you you're wounding when you're raising
your own children. But you know, if you can make
decisions like, OK, I'm going topractice this skill of staying
chill in this moment. And that's something even now
I'm really working on with my 11year old.
She's the youngest and she's gotten the worst version of me.
But I just recognize like, oh, Ihave to create that safety
(27:32):
within myself to stay chill whenshe's having her big feelings.
Yes, that's that's very true because that you're, you are the
adult, you're the one in charge here.
So it's things kind of hinge on how you react to things.
I want to pause. We got to pause for the sponsor
real quick. When you come back, though, I'm
curious with the rest of this time we have together.
I want to find out like, so how has this shift in you shifted
(27:54):
the traumas in your past? And, and because I'm sure you
still show up, people in your life still like are, are to have
given you these traumas are still there.
How do you relate differently than now?
How do you relate to old situations now than you did you
know when things were really going wrong?
I'm just curious that journey. We'll talk about that in one
minute. Are you struggling to make
(28:15):
consistent, valuable content foryourself?
Do you want to have an efficientand effective way to create
content that attracts the peoplethat you want to connect with in
life, the people you want to build relationships with in
business? Do you want to be the go to
authority at what you do, at what you're great at?
Would it be helpful for you if you had a platform that connects
you to incredible people in yourindustry?
(28:35):
The kind of platform that gets you leads and lands you clients
without you having to beat down anybody's door or blow up
anybody's inbox? Whether you're already creating
content or you're desiring to start and it's something that's
been kind of burning inside of you for a while, I urge you and
encourage you to check out the Pro Podcaster Academy.
Get started right now. Join the wait list at
(28:56):
robzwentz.com. Hi, my name is Jose Escobar and
I'm the founder and CEO of the Connected Leaders Academy.
We're a growing tribe, a community of entrepreneurs.
All over the world, globally. If you're an entrepreneur and
you're looking to grow personally and professionally,
scale your influence, develop your skill sets, move the needle
(29:17):
in your business, more clients, more money, more profit, the
bottom line and of course, grow your circle and your network
like never before, join the connected leaders Academy today.
Check me out on Instagram and onFacebook.
The at Symbol Jasco 25. We look forward.
To having you join us. Take care, Melissa.
(29:38):
I'm loving this conversation. It's really important to have
these conversations to to minimize these things.
Not saying that the things that happened to you in the past
should be are minimal, but to minimize the grandiosity
sometimes of how we feel and andhow we have to make things.
So the trying to get through this stuff.
The things that triggered you inthe past are the things that are
(30:00):
going to trigger you now. How do those past things that
'cause you trauma, how do you show up differently for them
now? How has it changed how you react
to the things that, you know, used to really make you go
crazy? Yeah.
I mean, as far as like your personal relationships with
people and things like that. Yeah, so, OK, so most, most of
(30:24):
the people I grew up with are dead now.
So there's that. Neither of my parents made it to
40. Yeah.
I mean, it really does. Like, truly my mom, my dad died
when I was 15. My mom died when I was 22.
The grandma who raised me died 10 years ago.
Most of my aunts and uncles are gone.
But even before, I kind of just decided to not be around them.
(30:45):
For me, they're the even the people who are still alive.
I choose separation because there's no relationship that
really can happen because nothing about them has changed.
But what has really changed is like with my husband, I had such
a hard time viewing anything I was going to say from his
(31:07):
perspective. I'm pretty good at seeing things
from other people's perspective.Unfortunately, with that neglect
wound, that really, that's the one that really makes us feel
like we have no one to help us and we're all alone on an island
that was so loud. Between that and betrayal, I
really had a hard time understanding that like his
stress was just as valid as mine.
(31:29):
And so I again, the the victimization of myself has
really decreased. But I would say ultimately
what's really helped me quiet all of that noise and be a more
regulated person is the pressureto be perfect has eliminated
itself. That's really where the work
(31:50):
comes in is I understand that I'm not going to be perfect.
Like I really thought in those early days, I mean, before I
even got the information about the shadows of shame and
whatever, I was doing a lot of future self journaling via the
holistic psychologist. She, you know, really recommends
that and I do too. I think it's great.
(32:12):
But I kept visualizing myself becoming this perpetually
unbothered person like a super Nirvana Buddha enlightened
human. Like I was some monk.
And the reason the monks are so chill is because they don't have
stress. Like they've decided the certain
life, you know, and I would be stressed in that life, but they
(32:34):
like it or whatever. And but it was not until like, I
was doing this I'm, you know, into the astrology woo stuff.
So I was doing an identity audit, which people do even
without astrology, but I do it like around new moons.
And I was writing down kind of who I was and who I wanted to
be. And I was like, well, no, why am
(32:58):
I trying so hard to become this Zen person?
Because I was, I was learning that I really liked this fire in
me. I'm a pretty fiery person.
And I was just kind of learning how to hold it.
Like I didn't want to extinguishit.
I felt for the first time in my life, I knew what to do with it.
And because I was becoming a person who wasn't afraid to
(33:19):
advocate for myself, I've alwaysbeen a pretty good advocate,
advocate for other people, but like to stand in my own
authority. And it felt really good, even if
it was not always in the nicest way, I was at least not people
pleasing anymore. And I was like, wait, those two
things don't really go together.And it was in that moment that
AI realized you are already all the things you're trying to
(33:41):
become. You got some stuff to still like
unbecome a little bit, but like you don't need to change every
last thing about yourself to be healed or to reach some
destination. And that really led me to like a
cycle of understanding that I'm still gonna be messy.
(34:01):
I'm still gonna like, sometimes yell, still gonna cuss at my
kids sometimes. Like, I'm still going to be an
imperfect person. But what I do with that is what
matters. So working on not shaming myself
when I make a mistake, truly cultivating a self love and
compassion for me and an unconditional positive regard.
(34:24):
Because as you work on those things within yourself, you can
then extend that to the people around you.
And so I started to kind of see like, how can I see the me and
them and the them and me? And the more I love myself, the
more I can extend that to others.
And every time I'm upset at someone, I just ask myself, how
do I do that thing too? And I figure that out.
(34:47):
It makes it so much easier because I know what my
motivations are and my intentions, they're not bad.
There's some self protection. There's, you know, some self
sabotage. You know, there's some things
like that. But that's not intentional.
And my intent is never to harm others.
And so I just kind of work with the assumption that that's not
their intent either. There are people who are very
toxic and you don't need to waste your time or energy on
(35:11):
trying to cultivate a relationship.
But the people that I've chosen to be in my life are good
people. They they don't always see their
own shadows and and it's not always my job to point them out,
but I can love them because I love me.
Great way of explaining that that is the yeah, that is so
true is man, people, everybody has their thing.
(35:31):
Just because your thing doesn't look like my thing doesn't mean
that your thing's not as big to you as my thing is to me, right?
It's like it's it's it's really,really true.
And the more we give our, the word I always use is grace.
The more grace we give ourselves, the more we can give
to other people. If I can, if I can cut myself
some slack, I can cut other people's slack.
It becomes so much easier. Oh yeah, because that's what I
(35:54):
realized. Is that like I was holding other
people to this cross of perfection?
Because that's what I was holding myself to.
So that's where that expectationpiece really changed for me too,
is because I was like, well, if I'm going to be OK with me not
being perfect, I kind of got to be OK with them not being
perfect. But you being OK with you not
being perfect automatically makes you OK with other people
(36:17):
not being perfect. It like just happens that way
naturally. Anybody who's being super hard
on somebody else, it's because they're so hard on themselves.
Yes, and perfectionism, sneaky for me, I, I, I find new ways
all the time. And sometimes it's a podcast
guest that will point it out like, well, but that's OK, that
that wasn't perfect. And I'm like, I was expecting
that to be perfect, wasn't I? It still happens every day.
(36:39):
Yeah, it's like you said, it's the the more aware we can become
of what's happening. This is why we need good people.
And I'm like, that's why you need.
I always go back to the the sum total of the five people closest
to you because like when you have really good people around
you, they in a healthy way highlight these things to you.
Just going back to the beginning, my wife highlighting
(37:00):
that to me, you know, now in thepast, she has highlighted that
in ways where she gets she's gotten offended and she probably
still will in the future, right?We all depending on what, what
place we're at at a point in time we get, we react to things
differently. But without her in my life
pointing that out, I would my own awareness.
(37:22):
I don't know if I ever would have seen it.
I mean, I'm 42, I don't, I don'tknow, maybe at 5262 what I have
finally seen what was happening.But she she could see outside of
me to be like, Hey, I think thismight be what's happening.
And so that's that's one of the that's why it's so hard to
change when you have the wrong people around you.
And that's sometimes not easier said than done, but we have a
(37:44):
choice, especially if you're over the age of 18 and you're,
you're out on your own, you can choose.
I'm not going to say the journeyis easy, but it's definitely
necessary, right? This whole journey is it's not
easy, but it is necessary to go through.
Yeah, and you know what, it's a lot easier than all the things
that we do to ourselves to to try to cope, you know?
Yeah, no, no doubt about that. So I want to encourage people to
(38:08):
check you out. Your website empowered with
melissahepner.org, but also yourlink tree out that's in, it's in
the show notes. I'll put it up on here too.
How would you like people to connect with you?
Yeah, just just talk to the people out there.
How can they reach out? What would you like to to do?
I am super active on Instagram so like following me and sending
Adm is super easy. I'm really responsive there.
(38:31):
My link tree is also there so ifif it's you know you, I think my
Instagram is connected to my link tree too.
I try to keep everything on the link tree really current so that
it is easy to kind of get to theresources I'm creating.
But yeah, I like Instagram. It seems to be the the the
format that works best for me right now.
(38:52):
So connecting with me there is great.
And my link tree has all of the resources that I'm offering.
Very cool and I want to thank you for your time.
This is really good information and I just love like just the
process, right? I'm very, I love, I love
practical information. Like practically, this is how
I've done this thing and the change that I've seen.
(39:13):
So I love that you gave us really practical advice.
Let's say you and I never talk again.
Somebody watching or listening, you never hear from them.
You never have a chance to connect with them again.
What lasting message would you want to leave with them?
Honestly, I think I would just re highlight what I said was
such an epiphany for me, which is you don't have to change
every last thing about yourself to be a healthier person or to
(39:35):
be worthy of love and belonging.Like you're, you're already that
and and you are worthy and valuable just because you exist.
And it's just really important to to build that love and
compassion for yourself. That's great advice.
Thank you for your time and the work you've done.
Melissa. Another true testimony of
(39:56):
breakthrough. Until next time.
This has been the unstuck movement.
Welcome back to the Unstuck movement.
As always, I am your host, Rob Z.
These are always true testimonies of breakthrough.
So you can find breakthrough in your life with whatever you are
going through. Today we have the incredible
Melissa Hepner with us on the show.
We're going to be talking recovering from trauma today,
quieting that noise in your head, building that self
connection, emotional hygiene, imperfection and authenticity.
(00:51):
It's going to be a powerful conversation.
And Melissa, I want to start off, you talk about CPTSDI think
we all know what PTSD is. I've never heard CPTSD so I'm
excited just to understand what that is and also how you realize
that you were living with CPTSD.Well thank you so much for
(01:11):
having me. The C in CPTSD stands for
complex. So the most distinct way for me
to explain that is like a chronic, like ongoing trauma.
And so PTSD really deals with maybe a period of time, like a
short period of time. Like, that's why, you know,
(01:32):
veterans were kind of the first for trauma to be studied in at
least like in a way that the general public was hearing about
it. And the way I heard about it,
'cause I mean, I didn't hear about PTSD until late 90s and it
was only in veterans. And then as the research really
expanded, it uncovered the fact that chronic or complex trauma
(01:56):
is like multiple events, a longer period of time.
However, you would want to understand chronic for yourself.
I don't want to get too specificin that part just because I, I
feel like we have a natural tendency to kind of minimalize
and trivialize our experiences and especially our trauma.
(02:18):
So I mean, for myself, it was really like an entire childhood.
Like there was just not one day that was peaceful in, in 18
years time. And so that's where my complex
trauma really came from. I can't remember what your
second part of that question was.
My second part was how did you remember or how did you realize
(02:40):
that you were were living with it?
Was there something, I, I guess this might be more of a simple
question, I guess, but realizingthat you're you're living with
CPTSDI think that the the big thing, the reason I'm asking
that is we can, like you said, trivial, trivialize our trauma
and not realize the scope of of how we are, why we are the way
(03:04):
that we are. So was there something a moment
or multiple moments? It helps you to realize like
this is really something I need to to handle.
Well, like a lot of trauma survivors, I was internalizing
so much. And when you internalize so
much, you're very reactive. And that's where we see a lot of
this like need for anger management.
(03:25):
And I was really a part of that and very in public freeze or
fond in the middle of a conflict.
But then taking it out on the people who were like the closest
to me. That was the thing that I
carried the most shame about washow quick I would just snap at
somebody, somebody I was close to anyway.
(03:45):
I mean, I messed up a lot of friendships like that just from
and also then hiding in shame from it and not knowing how to
apologize. But I think what really like
made me aware that I wasn't justa crazy person and there was an
actual internal process happening was somewhere around
like 2016. I don't know if you're familiar
(04:06):
with the holistic psychologist. I think her real name is doctor,
doctor Nicola Pera. I think she was getting really
big on Instagram and that was really my my gateway into
understanding complex trauma and, or, or trauma really in
general. And she was just putting out
little info graphics that resonated so deeply with me that
(04:30):
I was like, wait a second. I'm not crazy.
I'm not just mean because I was like raised around a
narcissistic grandma who really just love to break my heart with
the things she said about what anot good person I was because
I've been reactive my whole life.
But I mean, the trauma started in infancy.
(04:51):
So like it was something I carried a lot of shame about.
And those narratives just compounded it over and over and
over. So like to finally see anyone in
this universe talking about thisin a way that meant like, I'm
not a bad person and recovery aspossible because I had tried all
the things that I knew very little.
(05:12):
I had no coping skills whatsoever.
And so the information that I had even from education wasn't
cutting it. And so I thought I'm, I'm just a
bad person. Like this is just who I am and
really just identified really negatively.
And so getting that information was kind of the gateway to like,
OK, I know that there's an internal process that I need to
(05:35):
work with instead of just assuming I'm a bad person.
Yeah, I'm really excited to talkabout this.
There's something I want to you.You.
You made me think of something recently that's happened to me
that gave me some awareness and I want to dive into that here in
a second before we go any further.
So I want to welcome everybody to the show, the unstuck
movement. I created this platform, this
movement because we all get stuck at different places in our
(05:56):
lives and breakthrough is everything.
I'd love to have true testimony to breakthrough, to prove to you
wherever you're at in life, personally, professionally, that
it's possible to find breakthrough.
It is possible. It's necessary that you get
unstuck. We have to keep growing, have
that growth mindset, not that fixed mindset.
And so that's why this platform exists.
We're sponsored by the ConnectedLeaders Academy.
(06:16):
Make sure you check out connected to leadersacademy.com
over 500 heart centered entrepreneurs all over the world
helping each other grow and alsothe pro podcaster Academy.
So if you're somebody who has been wanting to launch a podcast
for a long time, all the nuts and bolts, it just seems way too
complicated for you to do it. I'd love to help you figure out
number one, how to become the goto authority in your industry.
(06:37):
How do you become that go to expert?
How do you create a lasting impact on people's lives and
also create incredible personal and professional connections
through your platform? I want to help you launch that
podcast if you already have one.How do you streamline it, make
it easier to execute, and also how do you monetize it and make
it a real functional, revenue generating part of your
(06:57):
business? You can join the Pro Podcaster
Academy at robzwentz.com. Today With us is Melissa
Heffner, a therapist, podcast host, and speaker who helps
people move beyond trauma, overthinking, and perfectionism.
Through her lived experience andprofessional expertise, she
equips others with tools to livemore grounded, compassionate,
(07:20):
and joyful lives. So I wanted to share Melissa.
Just recently my my wife pointedout to me that sometimes I'll
have like these what seem like way over the top reactions to
things that don't necessarily warrant an over the top
reaction. Usually it's in anger and, and
(07:41):
some sort of like outburst that it seems out of place with the
thing that's happening. And we were talking about this
and I'll be honest with you, it like something clicked for me.
It was like nobody had ever seenme like that before.
Like I'm sure people have seen me do this, but if you weren't
(08:04):
close to me, you probably would never see it.
And her awareness, because she'sa counselor herself, her
awareness of like, I think there's something going on like
in your past that's kind of you're, you're kind of like
stuck in something here that is causing you to have these like
unnecessarily big reactions. So instead of her taking it
personally, she turned it aroundand was like, let's, let's
(08:26):
figure this out, let's work through this.
And I, and I was like, wow, it actually, it brought tears in my
eyes 'cause I was like, I don't,nobody ever saw that before.
They never pointed it out. And so now I'm on the path of
I've been in in therapy in the past, other things, but this is
like a whole new Ave. of like, OK, you're right.
There's something here, some sort of block, some sort of
(08:48):
trigger that I need to work through.
And whenever you said earlier, when we first started there,
when you said about you were I always, you know, getting angry
about something when you were younger, right?
It was like these these big outbursts and and you'd blow up
on people right now, like when you got older, you'd blow up on
people. It made me think, yeah, that's
there's something going on that's causing that to happen.
I just wanted to share that because I felt like that was to
(09:11):
me like, yeah, you're you're kind of confirming this new
onion layer that I'm peeling offof myself.
I just want to dive into that for you.
When, when this started to become a reality and you're
like, OK, there's some things I got to work through.
What were the, what was the process for you in, in, in going
through #1 the awareness and then the, the healing process.
(09:33):
I know that's a, that's a, that's a big question, but kind.
Of, you know, it's really not for me because I had kind of a,
a catalystic event where so I gained this knowledge, the
entryway into trauma in 2017, 1617.
I spent the next like six years or so attempting to regulate my
nervous system 'cause that's theonly information I was really
(09:56):
getting right. But I had no idea how to do
that. And I, like everybody else, was
relying on this finite amount ofself-control and discipline that
we are given in any given 24 hour period.
So it wasn't going well. Not a lot was changing, OK, like
I was becoming more introspective, but that almost
was worse because I'm very good at at self analysis.
(10:20):
Even if I'm doing it incorrectly, I can stay in my
head all day over analyzing stuff.
Same here. Yeah, so that's part of the
problem. Overanalyzing creates tension.
When you are tense, you are agitated.
And when you are agitated, anything external of you is a
threat to your safety. So what happened is I reached
(10:40):
the just the pinnacle of the mental health crisis in October
of 23. Like wanted to die, was making a
plan. I was not well.
And then because I for lots of reasons, set a date that was
further off in the future, I waslike, well, if we're going to
make make it to that date, like something's got to give.
So like at first I was just kindof moving little pieces like I'm
(11:02):
trying to focus on my sleep, I'mfocusing on water.
You know, like you really do have to tend to your physical
needs first. The hierarchy of needs is there
for a reason. So I was trying to do that,
trying to minimize my stress, which wasn't going well either.
So I kind of just started in like creativity that I didn't
really access before. I wasn't great at what I was
(11:24):
doing, but it would at least getme into a flow state.
Quit the job that was being verytoxic for my mental health, gave
up some friends that were toxic for my mental health and then
started my podcast. It was truly my podcast that
saved me because the guests thatI've had on, but the the life
changing, life altering, nothing's ever been the same
since. Information that I got that
(11:44):
really just put me on this path is a lady named Jenny Kempton
was on my show. She works for a guy named Troy
Love in Arizona. He has a counseling agency.
She's one of his therapist. He developed a method called the
Finding Peace method. He wrote a book called the
Finding Peace Workbook. The information that saved me
(12:07):
was a couple of things. 1 He breaks shame down into different
archaeotypes. The crux of my issues was that I
had these narratives that I thought were just me using
negative self talk that were just happening all the time and
and I felt like it was differentparts of my personality
screaming at each other. But the way he breaks it can.
(12:29):
You kind of explain that a little bit like the different
archetypes. Yeah, so there there's this
archetype that the easiest one is the judge, because we all do
this like, you know that you know better, you shouldn't have
done that. So that would come in and then
the royal who it blames everyoneexternal of you so that we don't
have to feel the shame. It protects you from that.
(12:51):
So my judge would come and be like, Melissa, you knew better
because it was always just like,I'm screaming at my kid or my
spouse or whatever, you know, better.
And then the Royals like, yeah, but if they hadn't done that,
then I wouldn't have done that. And then here comes the judge,
like, yeah. But you know, and then there's
the martyr that that one's easy.It's like, you know, well, I
have to or, you know, no one else will do it.
(13:13):
And there is the impotent one, which is just that really deep,
dark, depressing, hopeless guy who's like, I don't know why
you're even trying. It's never going to get better.
And then one that I used a lot. And this is really our shadow of
shame that enables like addictive behaviors, dopamine
seeking, self sabotage. It's called the rebel.
(13:33):
So the rebel is actually what I used the most to absolutely lose
my ever loving mind on people because it was the only way to
get the things inside of my headto shut up.
So the the royal and the judge are fighting with each other.
And then my rebel would come in to be like, shut up.
And then outwardly I'm like, if you, you know, the whole gamut
of cussing at whoever's in frontof me.
(13:55):
And so understanding that helpedme to unravel what the key
narratives that are behind thosereally were, which is like, I'm
too much and not enough. I have the weight of the world
on my shoulders to to help like with nobody to help me carry it.
Like I have all of this. I am alone in my suffering, in
my struggle and at my core I uncovered the fact that I really
(14:22):
did feel like a fundamental F up, but also fundamentally
unlovable. And as I started to unravel
those, I could actually hear theexact like voice of the the the
royal and what it was saying andthe judge and what it was
saying. I thought because I have
(14:43):
schizophrenia in my family, I truly thought I was going
through psychosis before I got this information because it the
IT had gotten that loud. It was just a very loud place to
be. And what this book does is it
teaches you how to externalize all those narratives and give it
a character, give it, give it a personality, whatever, so you
can understand this isn't yourself talk.
(15:03):
This is your programming that you received in childhood.
And then it also broke down attachment wounding a lot better
to where I got to where I understood what was being
triggered when I was triggered. So it's just those basic
attachment wounds, abandonment, rejection, neglect, betrayal,
abuse. But it helped me understand so
much because something that I lived in 24/7 was betrayal and
(15:26):
neglect. Because anytime something
happened and I realized it really was like me creating all
these expectations because I feel like we, we love in the way
that we want to be loved and we're not communicating any of
that. And when we do that, we are
creating a social contract full of expectations between you and
(15:46):
whoever else you are people pleasing with or betraying
yourself for. And in that contract, in my
mind, we, we signed that in blood.
You made a, you made a promise and you better follow through.
So when the expectation is not met, I'm betrayed.
And I, I kind of, you know, thisis where victim consciousness
really comes in, where you startto understand, like, I have
(16:07):
created a life of victimhood because there's a big difference
between saying I feel betrayed and you betrayed me.
Like, it's OK if I feel betrayed.
I have this huge betrayal wound from parents who were incredibly
inconsistent. They were addicts.
They both died. I mean, they abandoned me.
There was all kinds of stuff there.
I'm allowed to be triggered and to experience that trigger, but
(16:31):
I'm not allowed to put that blame on someone else.
And so those were really the twobig pieces that changed
everything for me. Of course, I couldn't regulate.
Before, I didn't know what was causing the dysregulation.
Now I do. So I know exactly what's coming
up and I know what to do with that.
(16:52):
I really like you said you were allowed to feel triggered
because man, that word's just soit's such a buzzword.
It's been for years now in our culture, right and and and
triggered. We look at that as like, I'm
triggered, so something has to happen because I'm triggered.
That has to happen externally, right?
The thing that triggered me externally, something has to
happen to it because I'm triggered.
(17:13):
And I love what you're saying islike I'm you're allowed to feel
triggered. Like the stuff that happened in
the past. And this is, this is so good
because I've thought for years, like, well, this stuff's going
to stop eventually. These, these like you said about
the royal and the different archetypes when you were naming
them, like, Oh yeah, that's whatyou do in your head.
You, you know, you get angry andthen I blame externally and then
(17:34):
I feel some shame and blaming. So I turn the shame, I turn the
blame back onto me. And it's just like this, like
topsy turvy. Pointless.
Perpetual cycle, right? That agitates me, and then I'm
agitated. Yes, that's really good.
When you're agitated again, everything external of you is a
threat to your safety. Yeah.
And so I have to go like retreat, like either working out
(17:56):
was always, always works well for me is like it's like the
mindset shift, something that just like breaks that pattern.
But I know like that can't be this can't be the case all the
time. Like, like there has to be a way
to deal with this. So you just saying that and
being triggered because I would think like, OK, I'm getting
upset about something. This eventually will not happen
anymore. But that's not necessarily true.
(18:17):
This these triggers may always may might always.
They could go away at some point, but they might always pop
up but I don't have to react to them so.
I would say they will happen less frequently, but they will
always be there. Right, 'cause once you feed,
grows. So if you feed, if you get
triggered and you feed, it's gonna grow, but if you don't
feed it, it's not gonna grow. So, So going back to that
(18:40):
statement, I'm allowed to feel triggered.
What happens now that didn't happen before, when you still
still feel triggered? So understanding that I was
overthinking, overanalyzing, being up here, the word embodied
never made sense to me before. But the thing that happens
(19:03):
through all this trauma or just experiences in general, like
even if you're a person who doesn't recognize any traumatic
event in your childhood, nobody,and I mean nobody in Gen.
X or older was taught how to experience feelings.
We were told to rub some dirt onit and walk it off.
We were told to quit crying or we were given something to cry
(19:24):
about, blah, blah, blah. All the little euphemisms that
our parents said we can hold space for the fact that they did
the best they could while also understanding that we were not
taught to walk through emotionaldevelopmental milestones and
neither were they. They didn't have the
information. So I'm not here to like, shame,
or blame anyone, but it is what it is.
And So what we're used to doing is hopping right up here to try
(19:47):
to think through a problem. Life is meant to be experienced,
not thought about. And so when these things come
up, I had to learn. I didn't even realize how much I
lived in my head fighting with someone over something I wish I
had said. Or remorse over something I did
say just non-stop repeating, repeating, repeating.
(20:09):
And I had to learn how to get out of my head and I say into my
heart, into your body, experience the feelings.
So at first I was like, well, I don't even recognize what I'm
ever thinking because that's my constant state, right?
So I had to start cluing in physically and I would like, oh,
if my neck shoulders back are tense, I'm in my head like
(20:31):
that's my go to. Always, always.
I know if I'm tense, I'm in my head about something.
And I'm not saying that never happens still, but it is it is
much less frequently. But what I had to do at first,
none of the traditional grounding methods were working
for me because I could overthinkany of that.
Like if I'm having to sit and look at for five things, I can
(20:51):
point out that didn't work for me because two sides of my brain
were at war with each other likealways.
So what I started with was because I noticed over the
thinking happened more in the car because I'm quiet and you
know, I don't have anyone to talk to or whatever.
And so I, I was driving one day and I was like, oh crap, my back
hurts really bad. That means I'm overthinking.
(21:13):
What was I overthinking about? Oh, OK.
And then I was like, Oh yeah, no, I'm mad again.
And so I started just rapid firenaming things that I could see
in front of me, like the color of the car in front of me, the
color of the license plate, whatthe license plate said.
Only took about 3 or 4 things before I was now not thinking.
I was present in the moment. And then I said, OK, now we know
(21:36):
like out of our head into our heart.
And so I was like, what? What was I thinking about?
What was the feeling? Because I know which wound to
attach it to. And I was like, oh, rejected,
OK, let's feel it. And I was like, and it was the
first time I remember like it. I don't know if you've ever seen
that movie Ghost with Patrick Swayze, like, you know, Whoopi
(21:58):
Goldberg back in the, what, 80s,nineties.
Yeah. It felt like that.
It felt like entering my body for the first time, like in.
And that's the visual that I have too is like when I'm in my
head, I'm jumping out of my bodyand when I'm in my heart, I'm
back in and I'm embodied and I could actually feel.
And if you're not feeding your feelings with thoughts, they,
(22:18):
they move right through you in about 90 seconds.
But I just had to learn how not to.
But you have to get your brain still.
So like I said, the rapid fire naming stuff in front of me,
that really is still a tool I use.
If I, if I'm having trouble, I go straight to that because it's
a way to get very centered and present.
And then I just feel the feelingand, and I didn't used to know
(22:39):
what that meant. And so I had to start with like,
where in my do I feel any sensations in my body because I
did not know how to feel. I truly didn't.
And there's lots and lots of resources out there for
experiencing feelings. So I mean, that's like a whole
topic on itself. But that's what I had to do.
And then now that's the difference.
(22:59):
When I feel all of that coming up, I have to check in with my
physical needs. Did I drink water?
Do I need a nap? I heard someone say like, if you
hate everyone, then you need to eat.
If you feel like everybody hatesyou, you need to sleep.
If you feel like both first takea shower and then take a snack
and then a nap. Because like if there's a
(23:19):
biophysical response to things. And so that's kind of what I do
is I meet my physical needs and then I'm just making sure, like
in my, is this even worth the thought?
Like maybe I do just need to distract myself 'cause I have
hormones, it can make me overthink at any time.
Maybe it's nothing there, you know what I mean?
Well, yeah, 100% no, it's reallygood because I've noticed this
(23:39):
recently that I have a one year old and so I have a lot of
practice of like putting him to sleep.
There's a lot of time of just getting irritated.
Oh yeah. Yeah, Rock.
I rock him for 1/2 an hour, get up and put him down.
He wakes up, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I got to start the process
over again. So what I started doing, that's
(23:59):
kind of going with what you weresaying about like naming the
things in front of you. I just start counting.
I start at 500 and I just count backwards in my head and all the
stuff it, it tries to fight its way through.
This is just, I mean, this is probably just in the past couple
of months that I figured this out and it's been like really
helpful. I use it throughout the day now
(24:20):
if I get agitated or whatever, but it's, it's, it's like, yeah,
we, we don't. Trying to figure out your
thoughts with more thoughts is alosing battle.
At least I found for myself. It's like I just need to the the
counting backwards for me is like I'm present on counting and
(24:40):
I can do stuff while I'm counting it.
I can still do things. And those thoughts just like
dissipate. They just like they just go
away, right? And we and like you said that
then then they can process. I can process them.
They go away. They like go through me.
I'm not repressing them. I'm just, I'm just like getting
away from them, right? I'm not feeding them.
Yeah, because. There's a difference between
(25:02):
like the frustration you feel ina normal everyday thing and
being triggered, like in this big way.
I mean, we're going to get frustrated and there's.
Snow. It's snowball.
It's the snowball effect. Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. Some of it.
Your shame can be triggered whenyou can't put your kid to sleep.
It really can because, well, because I want to be able to do
(25:23):
this. Should I?
Should I? It makes you question if you're
not a person who's really good at trusting yourself.
Should I get angry? Trainers so.
I'll get angry and then I'll start getting upset at myself
for being that's. That's usually the process.
For every I could, I could relate that most things, the
process usually is I get angry at myself because I'm acting a
way that I don't want to act andthat triggers the shame and all
(25:45):
kinds of stuff. Yeah, absolutely.
Whereas like the anger is comingfrom somewhere and it's really
just like your container for frustrations, not big enough.
And that's something you can work on to get it to expand.
Like literally when I first started my podcast, I cried all
(26:05):
the time. Like the earliest episodes, my
voice is hoarse and raw from crying so badly over tech issues
because I had no capacity for frustration.
And I remember one day, because I'm super into astrology and all
of that, and I remember one day I was sitting there and I was, I
was wailing again over a tech issue.
(26:26):
And I was like, all right, I getit.
I get it, I get it. This isn't going to stop until I
quit acting like it's the end ofthe world every time something
small happens. So I literally just like decided
right then and there, like I'm not gonna care.
And I, and I just worked with itlike it was like, OK, so if I'm
(26:47):
a person who doesn't care, what's the next step?
I just work through the problem without making it bigger.
So it's the same thing. Like there doesn't have to be
something super fundamentally wrong because your container for
frustration isn't big. You know, it's just not
something, it's not a muscle youhave really flexed because kids
can bring this shit out. And you more than anything else,
(27:09):
it really shows you you're wounding when you're raising
your own children. But you know, if you can make
decisions like, OK, I'm going topractice this skill of staying
chill in this moment. And that's something even now
I'm really working on with my 11year old.
She's the youngest and she's gotten the worst version of me.
But I just recognize like, oh, Ihave to create that safety
(27:32):
within myself to stay chill whenshe's having her big feelings.
Yes, that's that's very true because that you're, you are the
adult, you're the one in charge here.
So it's things kind of hinge on how you react to things.
I want to pause. We got to pause for the sponsor
real quick. When you come back, though, I'm
curious with the rest of this time we have together.
I want to find out like, so how has this shift in you shifted
(27:54):
the traumas in your past? And, and because I'm sure you
still show up, people in your life still like are, are to have
given you these traumas are still there.
How do you relate differently than now?
How do you relate to old situations now than you did you
know when things were really going wrong?
I'm just curious that journey. We'll talk about that in one
minute. Are you struggling to make
(28:15):
consistent, valuable content foryourself?
Do you want to have an efficientand effective way to create
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Would it be helpful for you if you had a platform that connects
you to incredible people in yourindustry?
(28:35):
The kind of platform that gets you leads and lands you clients
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(28:56):
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I'm the founder and CEO of the Connected Leaders Academy.
We're a growing tribe, a community of entrepreneurs.
All over the world, globally. If you're an entrepreneur and
you're looking to grow personally and professionally,
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(29:17):
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To having you join us. Take care, Melissa.
(29:38):
I'm loving this conversation. It's really important to have
these conversations to to minimize these things.
Not saying that the things that happened to you in the past
should be are minimal, but to minimize the grandiosity
sometimes of how we feel and andhow we have to make things.
So the trying to get through this stuff.
The things that triggered you inthe past are the things that are
(30:00):
going to trigger you now. How do those past things that
'cause you trauma, how do you show up differently for them
now? How has it changed how you react
to the things that, you know, used to really make you go
crazy? Yeah.
I mean, as far as like your personal relationships with
people and things like that. Yeah, so, OK, so most, most of
(30:24):
the people I grew up with are dead now.
So there's that. Neither of my parents made it to
40. Yeah.
I mean, it really does. Like, truly my mom, my dad died
when I was 15. My mom died when I was 22.
The grandma who raised me died 10 years ago.
Most of my aunts and uncles are gone.
But even before, I kind of just decided to not be around them.
(30:45):
For me, they're the even the people who are still alive.
I choose separation because there's no relationship that
really can happen because nothing about them has changed.
But what has really changed is like with my husband, I had such
a hard time viewing anything I was going to say from his
(31:07):
perspective. I'm pretty good at seeing things
from other people's perspective.Unfortunately, with that neglect
wound, that really, that's the one that really makes us feel
like we have no one to help us and we're all alone on an island
that was so loud. Between that and betrayal, I
really had a hard time understanding that like his
stress was just as valid as mine.
(31:29):
And so I again, the the victimization of myself has
really decreased. But I would say ultimately
what's really helped me quiet all of that noise and be a more
regulated person is the pressureto be perfect has eliminated
itself. That's really where the work
(31:50):
comes in is I understand that I'm not going to be perfect.
Like I really thought in those early days, I mean, before I
even got the information about the shadows of shame and
whatever, I was doing a lot of future self journaling via the
holistic psychologist. She, you know, really recommends
that and I do too. I think it's great.
(32:12):
But I kept visualizing myself becoming this perpetually
unbothered person like a super Nirvana Buddha enlightened
human. Like I was some monk.
And the reason the monks are so chill is because they don't have
stress. Like they've decided the certain
life, you know, and I would be stressed in that life, but they
(32:34):
like it or whatever. And but it was not until like, I
was doing this I'm, you know, into the astrology woo stuff.
So I was doing an identity audit, which people do even
without astrology, but I do it like around new moons.
And I was writing down kind of who I was and who I wanted to
be. And I was like, well, no, why am
(32:58):
I trying so hard to become this Zen person?
Because I was, I was learning that I really liked this fire in
me. I'm a pretty fiery person.
And I was just kind of learning how to hold it.
Like I didn't want to extinguishit.
I felt for the first time in my life, I knew what to do with it.
And because I was becoming a person who wasn't afraid to
(33:19):
advocate for myself, I've alwaysbeen a pretty good advocate,
advocate for other people, but like to stand in my own
authority. And it felt really good, even if
it was not always in the nicest way, I was at least not people
pleasing anymore. And I was like, wait, those two
things don't really go together.And it was in that moment that
AI realized you are already all the things you're trying to
(33:41):
become. You got some stuff to still like
unbecome a little bit, but like you don't need to change every
last thing about yourself to be healed or to reach some
destination. And that really led me to like a
cycle of understanding that I'm still gonna be messy.
(34:01):
I'm still gonna like, sometimes yell, still gonna cuss at my
kids sometimes. Like, I'm still going to be an
imperfect person. But what I do with that is what
matters. So working on not shaming myself
when I make a mistake, truly cultivating a self love and
compassion for me and an unconditional positive regard.
(34:24):
Because as you work on those things within yourself, you can
then extend that to the people around you.
And so I started to kind of see like, how can I see the me and
them and the them and me? And the more I love myself, the
more I can extend that to others.
And every time I'm upset at someone, I just ask myself, how
do I do that thing too? And I figure that out.
(34:47):
It makes it so much easier because I know what my
motivations are and my intentions, they're not bad.
There's some self protection. There's, you know, some self
sabotage. You know, there's some things
like that. But that's not intentional.
And my intent is never to harm others.
And so I just kind of work with the assumption that that's not
their intent either. There are people who are very
toxic and you don't need to waste your time or energy on
(35:11):
trying to cultivate a relationship.
But the people that I've chosen to be in my life are good
people. They they don't always see their
own shadows and and it's not always my job to point them out,
but I can love them because I love me.
Great way of explaining that that is the yeah, that is so
true is man, people, everybody has their thing.
(35:31):
Just because your thing doesn't look like my thing doesn't mean
that your thing's not as big to you as my thing is to me, right?
It's like it's it's it's really,really true.
And the more we give our, the word I always use is grace.
The more grace we give ourselves, the more we can give
to other people. If I can, if I can cut myself
some slack, I can cut other people's slack.
It becomes so much easier. Oh yeah, because that's what I
(35:54):
realized. Is that like I was holding other
people to this cross of perfection?
Because that's what I was holding myself to.
So that's where that expectationpiece really changed for me too,
is because I was like, well, if I'm going to be OK with me not
being perfect, I kind of got to be OK with them not being
perfect. But you being OK with you not
being perfect automatically makes you OK with other people
(36:17):
not being perfect. It like just happens that way
naturally. Anybody who's being super hard
on somebody else, it's because they're so hard on themselves.
Yes, and perfectionism, sneaky for me, I, I, I find new ways
all the time. And sometimes it's a podcast
guest that will point it out like, well, but that's OK, that
that wasn't perfect. And I'm like, I was expecting
that to be perfect, wasn't I? It still happens every day.
(36:39):
Yeah, it's like you said, it's the the more aware we can become
of what's happening. This is why we need good people.
And I'm like, that's why you need.
I always go back to the the sum total of the five people closest
to you because like when you have really good people around
you, they in a healthy way highlight these things to you.
Just going back to the beginning, my wife highlighting
(37:00):
that to me, you know, now in thepast, she has highlighted that
in ways where she gets she's gotten offended and she probably
still will in the future, right?We all depending on what, what
place we're at at a point in time we get, we react to things
differently. But without her in my life
pointing that out, I would my own awareness.
(37:22):
I don't know if I ever would have seen it.
I mean, I'm 42, I don't, I don'tknow, maybe at 5262 what I have
finally seen what was happening.But she she could see outside of
me to be like, Hey, I think thismight be what's happening.
And so that's that's one of the that's why it's so hard to
change when you have the wrong people around you.
And that's sometimes not easier said than done, but we have a
(37:44):
choice, especially if you're over the age of 18 and you're,
you're out on your own, you can choose.
I'm not going to say the journeyis easy, but it's definitely
necessary, right? This whole journey is it's not
easy, but it is necessary to go through.
Yeah, and you know what, it's a lot easier than all the things
that we do to ourselves to to try to cope, you know?
Yeah, no, no doubt about that. So I want to encourage people to
(38:08):
check you out. Your website empowered with
melissahepner.org, but also yourlink tree out that's in, it's in
the show notes. I'll put it up on here too.
How would you like people to connect with you?
Yeah, just just talk to the people out there.
How can they reach out? What would you like to to do?
I am super active on Instagram so like following me and sending
Adm is super easy. I'm really responsive there.
(38:31):
My link tree is also there so ifif it's you know you, I think my
Instagram is connected to my link tree too.
I try to keep everything on the link tree really current so that
it is easy to kind of get to theresources I'm creating.
But yeah, I like Instagram. It seems to be the the the
format that works best for me right now.
(38:52):
So connecting with me there is great.
And my link tree has all of the resources that I'm offering.
Very cool and I want to thank you for your time.
This is really good information and I just love like just the
process, right? I'm very, I love, I love
practical information. Like practically, this is how
I've done this thing and the change that I've seen.
(39:13):
So I love that you gave us really practical advice.
Let's say you and I never talk again.
Somebody watching or listening, you never hear from them.
You never have a chance to connect with them again.
What lasting message would you want to leave with them?
Honestly, I think I would just re highlight what I said was
such an epiphany for me, which is you don't have to change
every last thing about yourself to be a healthier person or to
(39:35):
be worthy of love and belonging.Like you're, you're already that
and and you are worthy and valuable just because you exist.
And it's just really important to to build that love and
compassion for yourself. That's great advice.
Thank you for your time and the work you've done.
Melissa. Another true testimony of
(39:56):
breakthrough. Until next time.
This has been the unstuck movement.
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