August 6, 2025 • 51 mins
What if your biggest breakdown wasn’t failure—but the clarity you’ve been avoiding?
Clay Moffat built a 7-figure coaching business, lost it all chasing the wrong thing, and then—with his vision failing and no backup plan—wrote a book in 21 days that changed everything. This episode isn’t about blindness; it’s about finally seeing the truth: how trust gets hijacked, how self-betrayal sneaks in, and what to do about it. This isn’t mindset fluff—Clay brings the raw truth backed by neuroscience and lived experience. This episode is with Clay Moffat.
Clay Moffat is a Navy vet turned performance strategist who coached billionaires, fighters, and founders. After losing a 7-figure business and going legally blind, he wrote The Trust Trap in 21 days. Now used in $100M+ companies, it’s a raw guide to reclaiming clarity, authority, and trust. Clay isn’t here to inspire, he’s here to provoke transformation and break people out of their own traps.
Find out more about Clay by visiting: https://trusttrapbook.com
If you’re ready to stop outsourcing your power and start living with radical responsibility, grab a copy of The Trust Trap at trusttrapbook.com. Clay’s no-BS guide helps readers decode betrayal, break toxic patterns, and rebuild inner authority. It’s raw, research-backed, and designed to disrupt your excuses—and your limits.
🔑Rob Z Wentz is a Leadership Communication Expert. Rob teaches, trains, and develops people and organizations to become exceptional communicators and leaders. With Rob, leaders find clarity, take action, and succeed with integrity, making them “the expert” in their industry.
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Discover everything about Rob Z 📲 Linktr.ee/RobZWentz
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🔑Rob is also a Christian entrepreneur, founder of The Unstuck Movement (on all social & podcast platforms), best-selling author, social media marketer and strategist, award-winning radio personality, speaker, and influencer. For over 20 years Rob has been leading people to communicate at a higher level.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:21):
None. Hey, welcome back to the unstuck
movement. As always, I'm your host, Rob Z.
This platform was created to find true testimonies of
breakthrough. So to give you a real personal
example in your life that breakthrough is possible no
matter where you're stuck. Today we have an incredible
guest with us on the show. Clay Moffatt is with us.
(00:44):
And we're talking Truss traps, you know, self betrayal, the
burnout that comes from trying to be a high performer, nervous
system hacks, clarity over comfort, and so many other
incredible topics. And Clay, I want to start off
right off the back, 'cause that this idol, this, the title of
this episode is set around expectations and how
expectations can really screw upour life and what we expect to
(01:08):
happen. You know, 'cause things don't
always play out the way we feel like they should.
So you advise people to detach from their expectations, but
what specific actionable things can we do, mental exercises we
can put in play that if we applythese on a daily basis in our
life, can help us detach from those ingrained expectations
(01:28):
that we have? So The thing is, we're going to
get there eventually. You might as well dive straight
into trust. So I think that's probably the
most useful expectation that I can help shatter for people and
then rebuild into a useful frame.
And the way the world looks at trust is that I trust you to
(01:49):
meet my expectations, which is just short sighted and for lack
of a better word, stupid. You can always trust someone to
meet their own expectations. Likewise, you can always trust
yourself to go for your expectations.
So instead of trying to think, assume, or deliver that
(02:10):
someone's going to meet yours, assume they're going to meet
theirs, assume that you're goingto meet yours, and look for the
alignment of the two. And then you know that you can
trust the relationship for as long that alignment exists.
Not because they're evil, Not because they're selfish, not for
any other reason other than human beings are self-serving
creatures. We always do something as long
as it has a benefit for us. That doesn't make us evil.
(02:31):
That doesn't make us part of some demonic cult.
It just makes us human beings and we do these things.
And you can do things for yourself that are going to
massively benefit a little bit. Like, you do the show, you feel
good when you do the show. You like putting on shows, you
like helping people, but you feel good doing it.
If you felt like absolute dog for doing this, you're
(02:54):
disciplined to do, it wouldn't last that long.
You wouldn't keep showing up. And it's not a bad thing to feel
good helping other people and it's not a bad thing to get
something out of it. So I think that's possibly one
of the biggest expectations thatI would argue the majority of
people don't understand. And I would say that the the
misguided view of trust is one of the biggest things that sets
(03:16):
them up for failure. So the daily practice or the
daily strategy, a word that I'm going to steal from you, the
technology that you can use, it's just simply asking a
question, right? And paying attention to a
question. And the question is what is the
incentive that's driving this other person's behaviour?
Now, at at first, when you startthis, you're really going to be
(03:40):
like clutching at straws and like pulling from thin air.
But as you start to unpack the non verbal behaviour and start
to unpack the substructure of their language, which you can do
through training and processes and like understanding, you can
start to create narratives that are very visual and very, very
accurate. And so when you start to pull
apart their incentives, then youstart looking, OK, does that
(04:03):
incentive lead to a positive outcome for me?
OK. And then now you're just
checking, OK, are we still in alignment?
Do we still have alignment? Do we still have alignment?
And recognizing that trust isn'tthis permanent thing that's
going to last forever, that it is a process and processes ebb
and flow and they shift. And as long as you're paying
(04:25):
attention to the fact that the process happens, then you don't
get stuck in what I call the trust trap.
And you start being able to, which is like, my whole thing
about the whole book is being able to get to a point where you
can trust everyone. And I literally mean everyone
and come from a place where you're not getting betrayed,
you're not getting screwed over,you're not having all these
mistakes happen because you're looking at the world from more
(04:46):
objective point of view where you're taking the ownership and
you're not being the victim. I love that that's really good
and it's really important because this can it can be very
hard to step into every situation and pre set up
yourself, right, Like I don't every situation I go into, I'm
(05:07):
not setting back and preparing myself, although I things would
be a lot better if I did it mostlikely instead of just diving in
sometimes. But the fact that you said, you
know, expect other people, trustthat other people are going to
live from their expectations andtrust that you're going to live
from your expectations and understanding that that is the
(05:28):
reality of things. And that's how that that's how
it is in every situation that you walk into.
Holding that as like an example is really, really good, really
powerful and being able to navigate that on a daily, daily
basis, man that that's such powerful, actionable, practical
information that we can use. So, so let's say we, we need to
(05:51):
make new expectations, realisticexpectations.
And you've already touched on this a little bit here, but I
want to go a little bit deeper. What steps can people take to to
bring realistic expectations into their relationships, into
their business dealings so that when I get up in the morning, I
know this person that I'm going to talk to has their own
expectations of what's going to happen.
(06:11):
I know I have mine and I'm trying not to force mine on over
on to them and expect them to dosomething that that I want to
have happen. Is there a new way of a new way
of forming that, a new way of looking at that, making that
more realistic? It depends on the context, as
(06:32):
you already know, like context is king and it changes the
dynamic very, very quickly. And context can change just for
a simple fact of someone else walking into the room.
The context shifts, right or even changing the space where
you're at, the context shifts. So the context is going to
definitely play an an important part in that.
Having said that, the way to bring it to the forefront of
(06:53):
your reality is going to take repetition.
It it's, it's not something thatwe do by default.
By default we resort to the heuristics that everyone
associates with the word habits.And habits are basically mental
shortcuts to conserve energy. And so your default, because I
get a lot of Flack for saying this, you are built to survive.
(07:17):
From an evolutionary standpoint,we were not built to thrive.
We weren't. We were built to appropriate.
We were built to go from this standpoint.
That's why the brain is a energyconservation machine.
It's trying to conserve as much energy as possible, and it does
that by creating mental shortcuts.
We know it's habits. This is why as soon as you get
to the point where someone feelsfamiliar, where someone feels
(07:39):
safe, you lock them in. You create this mental
representation which becomes permanent until it gets
shattered and you're getting these red flags popping up.
And so the way to do it is to pay attention to the signals
that are being presented to you and not to argue with yourself
and go, oh, no, you know what? That would never happen.
(07:59):
Jeff's a great guy. Jeff would never do that to us.
Jeff brilliant. Like we've known Jeff for years.
Jeff can't do these things. Well, that is you arguing with
yourself. You're not accepting the
information that's being printed.
Now, it doesn't mean that Jeff is trying to screw you over.
And it doesn't mean that every, everyone or anyone is trying to
screw you over. And coming from a frame of
(08:22):
reference where you realise everyone, including you,
including me, is acting in theirown best interests, then you
realise it's never really about screening of net to say that
there are psychopaths and sociopaths and narcissists that
really don't have the intention to make you feel good.
But that's not 90% of the world.90% of the world are so busy
(08:44):
with what's going on inside their own head, and we are too.
So the reality check is to take pause and to listen for when
you're getting feedback. And the best way to start doing
it is to start creating a very deep and firm sense of self
trust. And that self trust comes from
(09:08):
you doing what you said you're going to do when you're going to
do it, you keeping your word andyou being the same person on
camera and off camera. So there's no leakage, right?
You are the same here and you'rethe same there.
If you come on camera and you'recharismatic and great and lovely
and friendly and just a really nice person.
And then you get off camera and you know, this just psychopath
(09:30):
that doesn't want to talk to anyone.
Well, there's two different things.
And, and the, the leakage is going to start coming out.
So the more you can create a, a,a consistency between the
baseline of who you are everywhere, yeah, the more
you're going to be able to base your reality into the moment
because you're not going to try to put up the facade, which
(09:51):
means you can pay attention to what's really going on.
Great point, man. You can't pay attention to
what's really going on when you're at an internal conflict
with yourself trying to figure out who you are and who you're
supposed to be in a situation that's really good right here.
This guy over here recovering people pleaser, Which made made
(10:12):
me sort of a chameleon in my life, right?
And so being a chameleon can be a good thing because I, I can
blend in a lot of situations. I can connect to a lot of
different people in many different ways 'cause I can kind
of bend to how they are. But it also has left me in a
state of confusion at times. Who am I right, Because I will
shape shift into scenarios so that I, I feel and it's all
(10:36):
about me, right? Trying to feel accepted.
So hearing that is, is like, yes.
And then the word I was hearing,which is my #1 value integrity.
I was hearing you say integrity,right?
The doing the things you say you're gonna do be the same
person on and off camera. And I'm just sharing this cause
it's, it's, this is really good.I come from the world of, of
(10:56):
radio. So I spent 20 years in radio
broadcasting. And one of the most interesting,
interesting things about radio that I found over the years is
almost all radio DJs are damagedin some sort of way, in the
sense that we go on the air and have this like over the top
persona get off the air and our life's a nightmare.
We're depressed. We're, we're, we have, we have
addiction issues, We have all, all this stuff.
(11:18):
And I always found it really interesting that the, the better
a DJ was like, and it's, it's I'm sure this is not true across
the board, but it definitely from my perspective was pretty
true. The more talented they were on
the radio, the more of a train wreck they were in real life.
And I don't know, I don't know what the disconnect was there.
(11:38):
It's just like something about the industry and the people who
go into it. So you saying what you just said
is like, right, man, if if you can't.
And this is what I struggled with a lot of my life, trusting
myself because I would be two different people, the person I
felt like I needed to be and then the person that I actually
was and talk about it's a crisis.
(11:59):
You, you experience crisis in that I just said a lot of
information right there. So I want, I want to get your
response to that. But before we do, I have to say
a little bit more. I got to welcome people to the
show. The unstuck movement was created
to help you find breakthrough inyour life.
So I want this episode, this example of breakthrough to be a,
a, a prime example that breakthrough is possible for
you. We're sponsored by the connected
(12:20):
leaders Academy. Check out connected
leadersacademy.com and also the Pro Podcaster Academy at
robzwentz.com today with us. We've already been talking to
him, he's an amazing guy. Clay Moffett helps high
performers break cycles of self sabotage and reclaim trust in
themselves without fluff or therapy speak.
His raw neuroscience backed approach provokes clarity,
(12:43):
transformation and accountability at the deepest
level. So me sharing what I just
shared. Are you a recovering people
pleaser? Did you have trouble trusting
yourself in the past? What led you to this being your
thing? So before we get into that, I
just want to quickly dial in on something that you said and you
(13:04):
said that being a chameleon can be a good thing, but it can it
also comes with it's caveats, right?
Because then you kind of lose track of who you are.
I would push back on that a little.
And I would say that when you have a deep sense of self and a
deep understanding of yourself, it becomes the biggest asset
that you've got. Because what it means is you're
not. If you look at it from the
(13:25):
frames you're trying to please people, then yeah, it becomes
this thing that is subservient and you're trying to please
everyone else. When you look at it from the
point of view that you're tryingto help people get what they
want, and it comes from a place of, well, this is going to be
the best thing to help them get what they want.
And I'm in the business of helping people get what they
want. So this is just a skill.
(13:47):
This is a superpower because there are some people that are
so rigid in what they do. And as you start to really
unpack the layers of who you are, Rob, you start to get this
amazing thing that you can be flexible in this specific
context to help this person and lose absolutely nothing of who
you are as a person. And recognize that this is just
(14:09):
an extension of how you can showup to help people as opposed to
a shift in your identity. And they're two very different
things. Yes.
And that's, so that's, that's a great way of putting that
because as I've grown in this, Iknow that the more secure I am,
the more I trust myself, the higher my integrity I can still,
(14:31):
it's like I, I, I, I compare it to good leather.
Good leather is super bendable, but never breaks, right?
So you can bend to anybody, but you don't lose track of yourself
when you're in people pleasing mode.
You bend to everybody and totally lose yourself because
you're insecure, right? That's like an insecure
attachment compared to a secure attachment.
And so the more I build that secure attachment, the more I
(14:52):
can bend without totally losing myself in that.
That's really good. Thank you for that.
What? So what about you was that, was
that your story? How did this end up being what
you do? No man, no.
This ended up being what I do because I was a victim for like
(15:12):
1st 27 years of my life. And that's that was never an
easy thing to admit. It's it's never at the promise.
It's still not a fun thing to admit.
Now it it's good because I realized I've moved past it, but
it's it's not a fun thing to go.Yeah, you know what?
I was a victim. I didn't even know if it was 27
years of my life. I blamed everyone else for my
problems of blame this person for not getting promotion.
I blame that person for trying to screw me over and getting
(15:33):
kicked out of the Navy when the only thing that was happening
was I was a irresponsible, B reckless, C insecure and four,
putting on a show with this false bravado.
I was telling the world how amazing I was.
And it, it came tumbling down because the only common
denominator between me not getting what I want in every
(15:55):
facet of my life, whether it wasschool, whether it was work,
whether it was going to a new profession, whether it was the
women that I deserve to get, youknow, whatever junk I was
telling myself was me. And so I was like, you know
what? This person screwed me up and
this person did this. So you know what?
I'm going to go and I'm going tostudy language.
I'm going to make these people like keep their word to me.
(16:16):
That's how I got into this. It had nothing to do with
helping anyone else. It had nothing to do with like,
I'm going to help people. I'm going to help myself.
No, I was a victim till the bitter end.
I was dragging and screaming myself.
I was like, you know what peopleare going to do what I tell them
to do. There's going to be like
something I learned. And after a couple of years of
doing that, I discovered NLP andhypnosis and I went on a couple
(16:42):
of trainings and I had drastic shifts on those trainings, like
massive. And I came back and people saw
the change. They're like, oh, what did you
learn? So I started just like messing
around with them and they were so pumped about the change that
I helped them with and they, they felt different.
Their thoughts were clear, they felt the best they'd ever had
that they're recharged, they're ready to go again, they're re
(17:02):
inspired to take on life, they're motivated to try new
things. And I was like, wow, this is
really, I feel really good feeling this.
And it just kind of spawned out of that.
It was, it was never an intention.
I never had any desire to go down this path, but I seemed to
have a different approach. Have you ever done Jordan
(17:23):
Peterson's Big 5? So his personality assessment.
No, I haven't. So there's like 5 key
characteristics and I'm going tomess up what they are some.
Is that is that something you can take?
Do you take that online? Do you find?
Where do you find that at it's. Going to be another.
Question. Oh, don't.
Yeah, right. You don't need to.
I'll, I'll find it. Don't worry about it.
(17:44):
I mean, I'll dig it up. Go ahead, I'll dig on.
I'll get you. Carry on.
There's these certain characteristics and one of them
is compassion. And basically you're rated and
you go through all this questionnaire and you you rate
yourself and out of a room of 100, you get a percentile of
what you're in. And I was in, I always forget
how it works with percentiles, but I'm pretty sure I was in the
(18:05):
99th percentile, which means like out of a room of 199,
people were more compassionate than me.
And people were like, how the hell can you be a coach when you
don't have any compassion? I said it's pretty simple.
I do have compassion. It's just I care more about your
results. And if I focus on your feelings
(18:26):
all the time, I'm focusing on the same thing that keeping you
stuck because your emotions are keeping you stuck.
So I ignore them. OK, that's great that you're
feeling that and like, let's focus on what we really need to
do here. Let's focus on the
transformation these have. Let's focus on this that's.
Really, really good, by the way.I mean that.
That's so good, man. You care.
(18:47):
You're compassionate about results.
You're not compassionate about letting somebody stay where they
are, stuck in their emotions. You're compassionate in the
sense that you want to see them change.
That's really good. Yeah, you could.
You could also argue when I first got started, it was all
about ego, right? Yeah, sure.
I, I I. You're also winning.
Got the results and I had to exactly, you know, like, yeah,
I'm gonna yeah, get this and this is gonna be great.
(19:09):
And so there was that element. And then as I've evolved and as
I've gone down processes, so like I've done, I watched the
ceremonies. I've done multiple psilocybin
meditations and trips. I accidentally took like 1000
micrograms of LSD because I drank the wrong bottle that was
(19:30):
in the fridge. It was supposed to be for a
ceremony I was doing and then disappeared for 12 hours to, you
know, come back as a completely changed human being.
It was a very interesting experience, but I've done all
this work and gone through and had these processes and it's
it's allowed me to understand myself that actually that might
actually be the Jordan Pearson thing.
I think it might be understandmyself.com and don't
(19:52):
ask me why that's just come in, but I'm pretty sure that's what
is something around that one. And by going through this
process and you can go through aself authoring process, you can
go through this understand myself, you go through this big
person, you start to come and have a look at how you can fit
in the world, why you're having these roadblocks, how you can
start to shift these things. And it's a very self driven
process that can be extremely useful.
(20:13):
And it was extremely useful for me at the time of life that I've
been doing things. So I've just been going through
certain elements, right? I didn't have a bad childhood.
I had the standard run the mill childhood.
I was an 80s kid, was born in the 80s, right?
I played outside most of my life.
We were like the first kids to get the home consoles, right,
(20:33):
you know? But we still went to arcades, we
played outside, we used to come in after dark, we covered in
bruises and stuff like this. We were playing on the street,
throwing sand bricks at each other, like doing stupid thing
that boys do. And it was like a typical run of
childhood back then. Dads went to work, mum stayed at
home. My dad was a hotel manager, so I
never saw him. I didn't get to see him and
(20:55):
really get to hang out with him until I was like 15.
And I've said before I don't blame my parents for anything.
So we're clear. But I think not having my dad
around might have been. It's the only thing that comes
through as to why I went so far off the rails that I didn't
really have a male mentor to like, show me how to go through
(21:15):
the ropes. But I don't necessarily
subscribe, but that is what it is.
It's the only thing I can think of.
Like there's no massive sensitizing event as to why I
just went so far off the rails. Like I just don't know.
And I've done a lot of work myself.
I've worked with therapists, I've worked with cursed, I've
worked with hypnotists. Like I've done a lot of things
and nothing's ever really come up.
It's like, oh, this is the thingand this is the thing.
(21:37):
And you know, I had a really cool childhood.
I've got 2 loving parents. They're still married, they're
still together. I've got a really good brother
who we're exceptionally close now.
We fought tooth and nail. Like, I tried killing him.
Literally. I was chasing him down the
street with a butcher's cleaver,trying to chop him up because he
turned. I was in the shower and this son
(21:57):
of a gun man, I was in the shower having a great time, and
he just went to the tap and turned on the cold water.
And so that sucked all the cold water.
So I got all this scalding hot water all over me in the shower,
burning. So I started screaming, going
crazy. He bolted out the front door.
I bolted out after him. You know, I was running down the
street in a towel chasing you. It's my parents are coming down
the road. Like, what the hell is going on?
(22:19):
Needless to say, yeah, that's. I wouldn't.
Yeah, just just some sibling stuff, right?
Just some simple sibling rivalry.
Rivalry. Simple sibling, non-toxic
behaviour you. Know well, that's funny, man.
My, my what my wife and her sister, they used to threaten
each other with the kitchen knives and now they're they're
best of friends too, right? So don't worry about it.
(22:41):
I wanted to ask you because you said you're trying to, trying to
figure out why, right? And I, I, I came to a point
during therapy and I, my, my wife and I do counselling with a
lady that's been really helpful.But I don't go to individual
therapy anymore, but I do have acoach and I, I came over to this
point of some at some point in time.
(23:02):
It was like, it doesn't actuallymatter why because I can just
focus on, it's like you said, being compassionate about
getting results, right? I've switched my thinking to
like what it would be beneficialfor me not to just wonder why
and like, I have to figure this out.
No, just set a goal for the future, set a vision for the
future and that'll pull me out of whatever I'm in.
(23:24):
And I see you shaking your head.So you subscribe to that notion
as well. A. 100% So a lot of people say
do you know of a gentleman by the name of Eagle Ledhosky?
Did you say Eagle Edhosky? Igor Igor Ledhosky.
So no, I didn't say eagle then Eagle.
(23:48):
No, I never heard of him really.Good dude.
He's a conversational hypnotist.He's, he did a hypnosis training
Academy and I was when I first started out because I was
working with fighters. He's into martial arts.
I ended up being on his podcast.It was like the first thing I
did and I was way too green to be going on a podcast at that
stage, but it went anyway. Idiot move.
Anyway, when I was on his podcast, I still remember to
(24:10):
this day, he's like, oh, so you're a wounded healer?
And my reaction was like, what are you talking about, you crazy
fool? Like, no, I'm not a wounded
healer. Like I didn't go down this path
to like go and heal. Like I'm, I'm not like wounded
and it was just interesting thathe would label that archetype on
me. I'm like, OK, so now I need to
go dig to see if I am this like just to see if there's any
(24:32):
relevance to it because I'm always interested in what other
people can see. Maybe they see something I
don't. And so that's why I went down
the path of why for a while. And let me rephrase, it wasn't
even why. It was more of how how did I
manage to get so far off the railings because and that's
(24:53):
actually resurfaced now because I've got 7 going on 8 year old
stepdaughter and I now have a 3 1/2 going on 4 technically 14
year old son, right? You know, he just like knows
everything he tells what to do. So for me, the how was super
important because I want to be as available to my kids in a way
(25:21):
that for the best way possible, I create the best place and the
best platform for them to know they've got the support to know
that. I mean, I can pick up on it.
I can start seeing things. I've done a lot of training in
this. So I'll be able to see when
things are going, but more so tosee like, hey, like was there
something that started to call me there?
And like, how could I do it differently and how could I show
(25:43):
up and how could I correct it? And so to look at that from more
of an analysis point of view, I was like, what's the processes
and the mechanisms I can put in place?
And so that was more like the massive drive.
The the why was just, it was just so confusing to me that I
managed to get so derailed off of something that to me it.
(26:06):
Have you seen the movie Dodgeball?
Yeah. Right, unlike Average Joe
Gymnasium, I'm not trying to show you this fancy shop there
like 'cause I was like, I'm justthis average guy.
I've got nothing really spectacular.
I'm nothing special. I'm a special snowflake in a
snowstorm with a million other special snowflakes.
Like we're all special snowflakes.
(26:27):
So yes, I'm special, but so is everyone else.
And we've all got different qualities and different
strengths. And it was just, for me, it was
more fascinating to understand how the brain went down that
path, what triggered certain things.
I go like, oh, cool, So what? Maybe I could apply this and
maybe this could go here. I'm just fascinated with how it
worked. And that was more the driving
factor behind that. Yeah, that's as a I'm the very
(26:51):
theoretical person, I totally can understand that.
It's like why, how, knowing the theory behind it and I, you can
get lost in that too, right? You can get lost in wondering
why and never take action. So you've got to find a healthy
balance of those two things. We're going to take a break real
quick. When we come back though, I want
to talk about people's intuition, right?
(27:14):
So how do we have a clear connection between our intuition
and our ability to truly recognize misaligning signals
and how we get that wrong? We'll talk about that in one
minute. Are you struggling to make
consistent, valuable content foryourself?
Do you want to have an efficientand effective way to create
(27:35):
content that attracts the peoplethat you want to connect with in
life, the people you want to build relationships with in
business? Do you want to be the go to
authority at what you do, at what you're great at?
Would it be helpful for you if you had a platform that connects
you to incredible people in yourindustry?
The kind of platform that gets you leads and lands you clients
without you having to beat down anybody door or blow up
(27:56):
anybody's inbox? Whether you're already creating
content or you're desiring to start and it's something that's
been kind of burning inside of you for a while, I urge you and
encourage you to check out the Pro Podcaster Academy.
Get started right now. Join the wait list at
robzwentz.com. Hi, my name is Jose Escobar and
I'm the founder and CEO of the Connected Leaders Academy.
(28:18):
We're a growing tribe, a community of entrepreneurs all
over the world, globally. If you're an entrepreneur and
you're looking to grow personally and professionally,
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never before Join the connected leaders Academy today.
(28:41):
Check me out on Instagram and onFacebook The at symbol Jasco 25.
We look forward to having you join us.
Take care. So Clay, loving this
conversation. It's really good, really
important too. This stuff's really important
and I always, we started talkingeven before we started talking.
I was thinking of the expressionwhen somebody shows you who they
(29:05):
are, believe them. So I was putting that in with
the whole concept of trust. What are your thoughts on that
statement? When somebody shows you who they
are, believe them. What does that mean to you?
How do you apply that? So words can be filtered, the
body can't, not completely. You can be trained and you can
(29:29):
be trained to beat lie detector tests.
You can be trained to do certainelements, I guess possible, but
there's always tells if you pay attention to what's happening.
And so there are movements that would indicate high stress.
There are movements that would indicate deception.
There's linguistic patterns thatwould also indicate deception.
(29:50):
When you get amalgamation of allof those coming together, then
you start to get a very visceralfeedback system happening where
you can start to decipher like someone is telling you, yeah
man, everything's all good. Like we're solid, no problem.
But their body language is slightly off, their tone is
shifted, and there's just certain elements that are
(30:12):
stacking up that are very different to their baseline.
The deviated from their baselineof how they normally show up.
And you will get that. You'll get that as like a gut
check. Now to give you an example of
how you could figure this out, funnily enough, I got asked this
question really recently. So it's it seems to be the thing
that a lot of people want to know.
(30:34):
Is there a food that no matter where it was served from, I mean
no matter where, no matter it was served on a gold plated
dish, you would not touch it? Sure, probably sardines.
All right, cool. So I want you to imagine that
(30:54):
we're out to a restaurant, right?
And then the waiter comes over to you and says, OK, Rob, thank
you for coming. We've got this perfect special
for you. It's on the House.
Here is the most exquisite flavoured sardines you're ever
going to have. And he puts those sardines down
in front of you. What happens inside of you as
(31:16):
you see the sardines on the plate in front of you, right
that what just happened internally?
What am I supposed to do here? You know, that's what happened
internally is like, I'm not going to eat this.
How do I get how do I get out ofthis without hurting this guy's
feelings? That's.
(31:36):
What internally happened in yourthoughts?
What internally happened in terms of your Physiology?
Because you actually started to tense up and you had a little
tension in your chest. Yeah, I kind of like, I probably
shrunk down a little. Bit too like, exactly.
Yeah. So that is a no from your
nervous system. It's saying this is a no deal.
(31:58):
We don't want this. We're not interested in this.
So you can start tuning into certain things like that and
start seeing that your body is telling you no.
Like this is no good for us. We don't want this.
And it's picking up on things that are out of your conscious
awareness. Similarly, let's say that no
matter where you were, there wasa food that if you assert that
(32:18):
you're going to eat it every single time, what would it be?
Watermelon. There you go.
Right. That was very right.
OK. You're even feeling it right
now. Oh, yeah.
OK, let's let's go serve. Me, I just had some before the
podcast. I was.
Eating Oh, there you go. I'm.
Like, yeah, it's on. It's on the brain.
So when you think about diving into like, the most luscious,
(32:39):
delicious watermelon you've everhad and having it served up in,
I don't know, some fancy new waythat you've never had before,
but it's delicious, how does that respond in the body?
Yeah, man, I'm excited. Like, let's go.
Right. And where do you feel that?
Where did I feel it? Yeah.
(32:59):
I guess kind of in my it was kind of in my chest and like my
upper and my shoulders. And what was happening like if
you were to describe it to me soI could do the.
Same. Oh, man.
Yeah. Again, I got a little, I got a
little tingly, you know, I got alittle bit like a jolt, like,
oh, that's exciting, you know? So then that is an internal yes.
Yeah. So you can start paying
attention to that kind of thing to see, OK, this is a yes for
(33:21):
me, this is a no for me. And you can start really paying
attention and you'll see that those signals that they're
subtle, but they're there. And the more you attune to them,
the more you'll start to connectwith what people call intuition.
But it's really just like your body showing you sensors that
are things that it deems are good for you and it is deeming
as bad for you. And so let's say you're going
(33:41):
down a deal and then you start getting like, this feels off,
right? You're checking in to see if
it's that same sensation that, you know, you get these
beautiful sightings, Rob, just imagine right here, all for you,
right? You're getting that It's like
that same thing, like, OK, pay attention.
When you get that signal, it means pay attention.
(34:04):
It doesn't mean it's a bad deal.It doesn't mean it's the worst
thing in the world. It means pay attention.
Stop trusting what's in your head about who this person is,
what this deal is supposed to be.
It's attention to the reality ofeverything that's being
presented to you right now. That's a really good point too.
That's, that's super helpful because in those moments, well,
(34:28):
number one, if I, if I want to say no, you know, it's, it's if
your body's telling you no to, to act on that immediately,
because I was thinking, as you were saying that right there was
a, a recent situation where I was a job opportunity was
presented to me. That was exactly what I wanted
and I felt really good about it until I processed it more,
(34:50):
understood how much I was going to get paid for doing this job.
And it I was not anywhere near what I need to get paid to do
the job for the hours it's goingto require.
But everything in me was saying,yes, do it because it aligned so
much with who I am. But then that one factor was
like, well, yeah, but that doesn't make sense right now.
(35:10):
That wouldn't work. So in the moment, if I would
have acted, I would have just said yes and then been like, oh,
crap, now what have I done? Now I have to go back and to
tell them no because the pay is not right or whatever.
So yes, paying attention. Great point.
So whenever and whenever you feel that something is off, make
(35:33):
sure that you pay attention. So not necessarily reacting
right away, but pay attention towhat is said and also pay
attention to what you continue to feel throughout that.
Yep. Absolutely.
So give me an example for yourself.
I just so I can get a better understanding, wrap my head
around it more in a practical sense for you.
How? How has this played out?
(35:54):
So when I was developing, I developed an app called Riff
Moyer 2019. And so we're clear, it tanks.
Man, I never even got to the final products.
I tanked over just over 3/4 of $1,000,000.
It's not not my proudest moment in business, but, you know, some
(36:15):
people get like a dog with a bone and they just don't want to
let go. I want to see the vision
through. And so I put everything into it.
It came to the point where I hadto cut it off because I was down
to my last 20 grand. And I had to, you know, keep
surviving and supporting my family.
And you've got no money. I'm in Thailand.
There's no safety and there's nonothing.
What are you going to do? So I'd kill it.
(36:36):
And so I regrouped and went a different way.
But throughout that process, I hired an expert who was an
acquaintance. A friend is a bit of a stretch,
but he's an acquaintance. He's a nice guy.
And we had an agreement and it was a handshake agreement.
And he was going to steal the team and project manage the
(36:56):
development for me. And we were going to build this
app together. And I was going to test the
Android version. He was going to test the iOS
version and then we got to two weeks out to launch time.
We got on call with Devout and I'm like, OK, what's going on?
We're missing so much here. Like no, no, no.
Like we've done all the back end.
We're just missing the front end.
I didn't know my backside from my front side when it comes to
app development, so I had no idea what was missing and what
(37:18):
was going on, but it just didn'tseem right.
I'm like, oh, OK, so I completely overwrote it.
I'm like, oh, they said it's OK,so it must be OK.
And like my body's screaming, wake up, man, wake up.
This is not right. Anyway, we get to launch day and
it's like a complete disaster that you can't launch the app.
I've got to tell everyone who's already paid like they'll people
that pre sold on the idea. I had like over 300 applications
(37:42):
for it, ended up putting throughlike I vetted everyone, put
through like 120 people on the program and it was like huge.
I was like, I'm doing really well.
This is great. It's going to be such a great
thing. Like I'm really putting this
thing together. Anyway, come to find out that
there is no iOS app. I'm like, what?
I thought you were testing it like, well, no, like it didn't
(38:05):
really happen. Like, So what have you been
doing? So now I'm like, OK, is it the
development team that's messing me about or is it the project
manager? Now I don't know.
I'll give the development team the benefit of the doubt because
the project manager literally told me he was doing this thing
and he didn't do that thing. So I'm like, OK, we can figure
it out, it'll be fine. How wrong I was.
(38:28):
So there I continued with this development team and they just
carried on missing deadlines andtelling me certain things and,
you know, tell them porcupines and lies and all the drama just
carried on unfolding. And so it got to a point where
it came to a head and I said, look, this is not acceptable.
You guys are not acceptable. You haven't delivered on your
end. I paid you more than what you
asked for. We're not continuing like, I'm
(38:48):
done. This deal's off.
Oh, no, Sir, we can still do. We can do this.
We'll work for him. Like, I don't want it, man.
Like, this is not, we're six months behind schedule.
You told me you could build it in four months.
So not only could you not build it in four months, you couldn't
build it in eight months becausewe're six months behind
schedule. We're done.
Like this is just not happening.And I then went and hired
(39:10):
another team. I did the hiring, I hired the
project manager. I vetted everyone.
It was good, but they started putting some shady stuff because
it was all remote. I didn't really get to see
anyone. I couldn't really track the
code. I didn't have a technical expert
anymore. And so I set myself up to fail
that way third time round, whichis the last year's effort.
(39:33):
I hired all my own team. I hired my own technical
director that reported directly to me who I was paying, who
would tell me exactly what's going on and was running the
team and everything was firing. And I wish I'd started that way
because I was burning through around about 40 grand a month.
And yeah, after 5 1/2 months, I just had to kill it because I
(39:53):
just didn't like, we were so close to cracking it.
But I, I'd run out of cash. I'd killed my marketing budget.
I'd been, I twice. I trained up a team, I trained
up customer service. I trained up coaches to like be
live on the app and work. I trained like everything, pay
for their support for three months to get them all trained
up and ready to go. And then the app couldn't launch
(40:14):
and I paid them for like anothermonth or two and then it still
wasn't ready. So I had to fire them.
And then when I reached out to them to come back again, they're
like, looks like, thanks, we appreciate it, but we've got
other jobs now we can't. So I had to go and hire a whole
bunch more people, do it all over again.
And then it all failed again. So it was just.
Oh my man. A mix of signals, you know, and
I didn't pay attention. I wasn't paying attention to the
(40:35):
reality. I was still paying attention to
like, well, this is a trustworthy person.
They're not going to do this like this is.
We've done this and so I was very much victim to that and not
paying attention to the reality of what was happening, present
time and paying attention to like this is the person that I
hired. So this is obviously the same
person that's showing up today. Yeah.
And and you also, you invested all that money and being that
invested that makes it the more time and the more finances are
(41:00):
invested, the harder it is to just disband the whole thing,
right? Yes.
And I think the issue and what eventually came to be true for
me was recognizing that the how wasn't really as important as
the why and the what in that case.
(41:20):
So the app was going to deliver change and it was fantastic when
it worked like it was brilliant and it did exactly what I wanted
to do and the feedback I got wasjust next level.
It was perfect, but I could, thewhole point of me doing this was
to help people change and help like a grander scale of people
change. It's more affordable than
working with me to 1 to 1. So I could just go ahead and
(41:43):
deliver an online cohort programthat builds with most of the
things that has in it, has like 80% of the stuff in there and
deliver like 80% of the results with 20% of the investment and
the effort and everything like that.
And so when I woke up to the fact that I was just kidding
myself to cry and go and do thisthing, I was like, let's just do
what we know how to do. And so I did that.
(42:05):
So if you would have been, you know, hindsight 2020, when would
you have stepped in and what would you have done differently
in the beginning, like right offthe bat?
I wouldn't have even hired that project major.
But even before that, yeah, before that, like not knowing
your technical, not having the technical expertise, but knowing
(42:28):
the impact and change, what would you have go like the whole
way back to the beginning? How would you have approached it
differently listening to, because the intuition tells you
to go towards the app and head in that direction.
The first signs of all this doesn't feel right.
How would you have done it now? Well, the different process
(42:49):
would be I'd go straight for my own team and I wouldn't
outsource to an agency because when both times, while my own
team was more expensive, both times when I went with an
agency, there was no ownership of the agency because like, I'll
just go, I'll just go to anotherproject within my team.
They're not reporting directly with me.
They're reporting to their team and then their team's reporting
(43:10):
to me. So there was no, there was no
connection with the project. When I had my own team, I could
vet them, I could make sure there was a values alignment.
I could make sure they were invested in the project.
I could make sure they were interested in what they were
developing. Do they have an interest in self
development? Were they interested in this
kind of thing? And so when they saw the
project, they were like 100% on board.
Like this is amazing. And they even stayed like, look,
I'll work for you for another two months for free.
(43:31):
I'm like, I can't ask you to do that, man.
That's not OK. You know, like that's how
invested they were. And so the I would go from that
frame of reference, but the mostimportant thing I'd do is I'd
bring on a technical expert thatwould be able to verify what's
going on and just like a fractional CTO.
So I'm sure I did in the end andhave them just verify and check,
(43:53):
OK, what's happening with the code?
Are they actually making progress?
Is this moving in the right direction?
So they're not doing the coding,but they're just checking and
verifying, and they're making upfor my lack of subject matter
expert knowledge. Yeah.
And as you're saying that, it's like finding people that share
in your vision, right? So your own team is going to
share more in the vision than anoutsourced company that has a
(44:16):
bunch of other projects going on, right #1 So a shared vision,
like even if they're not you, they're not going to be able to
see it exactly how you see it, but they're going to be able to
understand that vision and, and follow through better.
And then somebody who mentorship, right?
Somebody who understands something at a deep level,
bringing them in to be the eyes and ears for it.
(44:39):
It's a huge lesson to learn. It's a huge piece of the puzzle
that we miss out on so many times.
That cut costs to expediate things, to speed things up when
usually those sorts of things are short.
Cuts are usually a hindrance in the long run, I don't think in
all cases, but in something likethat it sounds like that was the
case. I got advised by a couple of my
(45:01):
friends who were way more technical than I am, and I told
them that I'm going to build my own team.
They're like, don't do it, just go with an agency because
there's things you're not going to know.
There's unknown knowns, unknown unknowns, and all these other
things that are going to rain down on you.
So just like you're not going toknow what you don't know yet, no
one knows what they don't know. That's the whole point of not
knowing it. Like, OK.
(45:23):
And I would have just listened to myself because in my gut, I
really want to just build my ownteam.
And so I would have started withmy own team two years before I
ended up starting. And I would have started with my
full budget and I likely would have ended up having an app.
Interesting man, great example. Thank you for that.
I appreciate that and this is this conversation's been so
(45:44):
good. We got to wrap it up, but I
really value your time. Clay.
This has been awesome. I want to encourage people to
get your book trust trapbook.com.
Do you want to share a little bit about the book?
So the book is kind of, it's notkind of.
The book is an amalgamation of possibly what I think is one of
the most useful things and useful frames that can stop
(46:06):
people who find themselves in positions where they keep
repeating patterns that leave them in positions of, let's just
say, for lack of a better word, vulnerability.
They leave them exposed, and notin a good way, right?
Sometimes being vulnerable and being vulnerable by choice is a
great thing, but being vulnerable because someone's
(46:26):
taking advantage of you or because you keep falling into
the same pattern because you think that trust means this when
it actually means something completely different.
Well, there's two different things.
There's two different protocols and processes and ways to go
about that so that you can starthaving the results that you want
to have. And in essence, it was written
because I had this like one chance, this one window where I
(46:50):
can make a difference in the world because I was facing
blindness, like permanent darkness with being blind in my
left eye. My right eye started going out
in November last year. And then the surgery that I had
to have was the surgery that took my vision away ultimately
in 2010 in my left eye. And so I was very, very aware,
let's say, that it could go the other way.
(47:11):
And I wouldn't be having this conversation with you today
because I wouldn't be able to see you.
So it would have been a very different process for me.
And so this was the book. It was the thing that I think
could make the most difference. It was the thing that I think
could be used as a tactical manual to show you how to create
self trust. And when you change the way that
(47:33):
you view trust, you change the way that you view the world and
the world views you because it now it's no longer me versus the
world, it's how do I align with the world?
Yeah, that's really good. How do you align with the world?
I, I, I love man that it's such an important topic.
It's such a powerful, less so many powerful lessons to be
(47:54):
learned there. So I encourage everybody to get
that trust. trapbook.com. As we end this thing as I always
do, if say you and I never talk again.
People watching and listening, they never hear from you again.
What is 1 lasting message that you'd love to share to leave
everybody with? If you're on a journey of self
development, if and if not and you haven't started yet, then
(48:19):
this is possibly one of the mostimportant things that I've
learned from me personally. And once you understand this,
you, you understand yourself in a way that just changes how you
show up in the world forever. There's a common thing that
people saying like you're not broken, there's nothing wrong
with you, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
(48:39):
But when most people start theirself development journey,
they're trying to fill some kindof internal void.
I know I was for many years. And they're trying to find this
external thing that's going to fix this internal thing.
And if you start from the premise that you're broken, then
nothing that you do that's goingto come from outside of you is
(49:00):
ever going to fix the thing that's broken internally.
If you, however, come from a premise that there's nothing
actually wrong, literally nothing, and yeah, sure, you may
have ADHD or ADD, you might be slightly depressed at the
moment, you might be burned out.I'm not disputing those things.
What I mean is, as a human being, you're not flawed, right?
(49:25):
You have within you this structure, this mechanism,
foundation that has had all thisconditioning plopped on top of
it. But that core unit of who you
are, that you started within this world, that is not flawed.
And so you're never on a journeyto try and fix yourself.
(49:46):
You're on a journey to just let go of the layers that you've
accepted as yourself that art. Great point.
Much easier said than done right?
A lifelong journey of figuring it out, but very true, man.
Yeah, that is a really good way of looking at it because all the
(50:06):
things, everything that you see is like a curse in your life is
a gift, depending on how you look at it, depending on how you
utilize it. And, and, and learning about
yourself, learning your personality and, and how you are
and who you are starts to see like, oh, OK, well this is, I
act this way because of this. I did this thing because of
these things. And those things aren't, they
(50:28):
don't mean that I'm broken. They just mean that I'm wired a
certain way and I have to. I had to learn how to get back
to my original wiring system is what I hear you saying.
There's so many, so many variables there.
All right, man. Thank you, Clay.
That was awesome. Thank you for the time.
Another incredible true testimony of breakthrough on the
show. Until next time.
This has been the unstuck movement.
(51:16):
Hey awesome brother.
None. Hey, welcome back to the unstuck
movement. As always, I'm your host, Rob Z.
This platform was created to find true testimonies of
breakthrough. So to give you a real personal
example in your life that breakthrough is possible no
matter where you're stuck. Today we have an incredible
guest with us on the show. Clay Moffatt is with us.
(00:44):
And we're talking Truss traps, you know, self betrayal, the
burnout that comes from trying to be a high performer, nervous
system hacks, clarity over comfort, and so many other
incredible topics. And Clay, I want to start off
right off the back, 'cause that this idol, this, the title of
this episode is set around expectations and how
expectations can really screw upour life and what we expect to
(01:08):
happen. You know, 'cause things don't
always play out the way we feel like they should.
So you advise people to detach from their expectations, but
what specific actionable things can we do, mental exercises we
can put in play that if we applythese on a daily basis in our
life, can help us detach from those ingrained expectations
(01:28):
that we have? So The thing is, we're going to
get there eventually. You might as well dive straight
into trust. So I think that's probably the
most useful expectation that I can help shatter for people and
then rebuild into a useful frame.
And the way the world looks at trust is that I trust you to
(01:49):
meet my expectations, which is just short sighted and for lack
of a better word, stupid. You can always trust someone to
meet their own expectations. Likewise, you can always trust
yourself to go for your expectations.
So instead of trying to think, assume, or deliver that
(02:10):
someone's going to meet yours, assume they're going to meet
theirs, assume that you're goingto meet yours, and look for the
alignment of the two. And then you know that you can
trust the relationship for as long that alignment exists.
Not because they're evil, Not because they're selfish, not for
any other reason other than human beings are self-serving
creatures. We always do something as long
as it has a benefit for us. That doesn't make us evil.
(02:31):
That doesn't make us part of some demonic cult.
It just makes us human beings and we do these things.
And you can do things for yourself that are going to
massively benefit a little bit. Like, you do the show, you feel
good when you do the show. You like putting on shows, you
like helping people, but you feel good doing it.
If you felt like absolute dog for doing this, you're
(02:54):
disciplined to do, it wouldn't last that long.
You wouldn't keep showing up. And it's not a bad thing to feel
good helping other people and it's not a bad thing to get
something out of it. So I think that's possibly one
of the biggest expectations thatI would argue the majority of
people don't understand. And I would say that the the
misguided view of trust is one of the biggest things that sets
(03:16):
them up for failure. So the daily practice or the
daily strategy, a word that I'm going to steal from you, the
technology that you can use, it's just simply asking a
question, right? And paying attention to a
question. And the question is what is the
incentive that's driving this other person's behaviour?
Now, at at first, when you startthis, you're really going to be
(03:40):
like clutching at straws and like pulling from thin air.
But as you start to unpack the non verbal behaviour and start
to unpack the substructure of their language, which you can do
through training and processes and like understanding, you can
start to create narratives that are very visual and very, very
accurate. And so when you start to pull
apart their incentives, then youstart looking, OK, does that
(04:03):
incentive lead to a positive outcome for me?
OK. And then now you're just
checking, OK, are we still in alignment?
Do we still have alignment? Do we still have alignment?
And recognizing that trust isn'tthis permanent thing that's
going to last forever, that it is a process and processes ebb
and flow and they shift. And as long as you're paying
(04:25):
attention to the fact that the process happens, then you don't
get stuck in what I call the trust trap.
And you start being able to, which is like, my whole thing
about the whole book is being able to get to a point where you
can trust everyone. And I literally mean everyone
and come from a place where you're not getting betrayed,
you're not getting screwed over,you're not having all these
mistakes happen because you're looking at the world from more
(04:46):
objective point of view where you're taking the ownership and
you're not being the victim. I love that that's really good
and it's really important because this can it can be very
hard to step into every situation and pre set up
yourself, right, Like I don't every situation I go into, I'm
(05:07):
not setting back and preparing myself, although I things would
be a lot better if I did it mostlikely instead of just diving in
sometimes. But the fact that you said, you
know, expect other people, trustthat other people are going to
live from their expectations andtrust that you're going to live
from your expectations and understanding that that is the
(05:28):
reality of things. And that's how that that's how
it is in every situation that you walk into.
Holding that as like an example is really, really good, really
powerful and being able to navigate that on a daily, daily
basis, man that that's such powerful, actionable, practical
information that we can use. So, so let's say we, we need to
(05:51):
make new expectations, realisticexpectations.
And you've already touched on this a little bit here, but I
want to go a little bit deeper. What steps can people take to to
bring realistic expectations into their relationships, into
their business dealings so that when I get up in the morning, I
know this person that I'm going to talk to has their own
expectations of what's going to happen.
(06:11):
I know I have mine and I'm trying not to force mine on over
on to them and expect them to dosomething that that I want to
have happen. Is there a new way of a new way
of forming that, a new way of looking at that, making that
more realistic? It depends on the context, as
(06:32):
you already know, like context is king and it changes the
dynamic very, very quickly. And context can change just for
a simple fact of someone else walking into the room.
The context shifts, right or even changing the space where
you're at, the context shifts. So the context is going to
definitely play an an important part in that.
Having said that, the way to bring it to the forefront of
(06:53):
your reality is going to take repetition.
It it's, it's not something thatwe do by default.
By default we resort to the heuristics that everyone
associates with the word habits.And habits are basically mental
shortcuts to conserve energy. And so your default, because I
get a lot of Flack for saying this, you are built to survive.
(07:17):
From an evolutionary standpoint,we were not built to thrive.
We weren't. We were built to appropriate.
We were built to go from this standpoint.
That's why the brain is a energyconservation machine.
It's trying to conserve as much energy as possible, and it does
that by creating mental shortcuts.
We know it's habits. This is why as soon as you get
to the point where someone feelsfamiliar, where someone feels
(07:39):
safe, you lock them in. You create this mental
representation which becomes permanent until it gets
shattered and you're getting these red flags popping up.
And so the way to do it is to pay attention to the signals
that are being presented to you and not to argue with yourself
and go, oh, no, you know what? That would never happen.
(07:59):
Jeff's a great guy. Jeff would never do that to us.
Jeff brilliant. Like we've known Jeff for years.
Jeff can't do these things. Well, that is you arguing with
yourself. You're not accepting the
information that's being printed.
Now, it doesn't mean that Jeff is trying to screw you over.
And it doesn't mean that every, everyone or anyone is trying to
screw you over. And coming from a frame of
(08:22):
reference where you realise everyone, including you,
including me, is acting in theirown best interests, then you
realise it's never really about screening of net to say that
there are psychopaths and sociopaths and narcissists that
really don't have the intention to make you feel good.
But that's not 90% of the world.90% of the world are so busy
(08:44):
with what's going on inside their own head, and we are too.
So the reality check is to take pause and to listen for when
you're getting feedback. And the best way to start doing
it is to start creating a very deep and firm sense of self
trust. And that self trust comes from
(09:08):
you doing what you said you're going to do when you're going to
do it, you keeping your word andyou being the same person on
camera and off camera. So there's no leakage, right?
You are the same here and you'rethe same there.
If you come on camera and you'recharismatic and great and lovely
and friendly and just a really nice person.
And then you get off camera and you know, this just psychopath
(09:30):
that doesn't want to talk to anyone.
Well, there's two different things.
And, and the, the leakage is going to start coming out.
So the more you can create a, a,a consistency between the
baseline of who you are everywhere, yeah, the more
you're going to be able to base your reality into the moment
because you're not going to try to put up the facade, which
(09:51):
means you can pay attention to what's really going on.
Great point, man. You can't pay attention to
what's really going on when you're at an internal conflict
with yourself trying to figure out who you are and who you're
supposed to be in a situation that's really good right here.
This guy over here recovering people pleaser, Which made made
(10:12):
me sort of a chameleon in my life, right?
And so being a chameleon can be a good thing because I, I can
blend in a lot of situations. I can connect to a lot of
different people in many different ways 'cause I can kind
of bend to how they are. But it also has left me in a
state of confusion at times. Who am I right, Because I will
shape shift into scenarios so that I, I feel and it's all
(10:36):
about me, right? Trying to feel accepted.
So hearing that is, is like, yes.
And then the word I was hearing,which is my #1 value integrity.
I was hearing you say integrity,right?
The doing the things you say you're gonna do be the same
person on and off camera. And I'm just sharing this cause
it's, it's, this is really good.I come from the world of, of
(10:56):
radio. So I spent 20 years in radio
broadcasting. And one of the most interesting,
interesting things about radio that I found over the years is
almost all radio DJs are damagedin some sort of way, in the
sense that we go on the air and have this like over the top
persona get off the air and our life's a nightmare.
We're depressed. We're, we're, we have, we have
addiction issues, We have all, all this stuff.
(11:18):
And I always found it really interesting that the, the better
a DJ was like, and it's, it's I'm sure this is not true across
the board, but it definitely from my perspective was pretty
true. The more talented they were on
the radio, the more of a train wreck they were in real life.
And I don't know, I don't know what the disconnect was there.
(11:38):
It's just like something about the industry and the people who
go into it. So you saying what you just said
is like, right, man, if if you can't.
And this is what I struggled with a lot of my life, trusting
myself because I would be two different people, the person I
felt like I needed to be and then the person that I actually
was and talk about it's a crisis.
(11:59):
You, you experience crisis in that I just said a lot of
information right there. So I want, I want to get your
response to that. But before we do, I have to say
a little bit more. I got to welcome people to the
show. The unstuck movement was created
to help you find breakthrough inyour life.
So I want this episode, this example of breakthrough to be a,
a, a prime example that breakthrough is possible for
you. We're sponsored by the connected
(12:20):
leaders Academy. Check out connected
leadersacademy.com and also the Pro Podcaster Academy at
robzwentz.com today with us. We've already been talking to
him, he's an amazing guy. Clay Moffett helps high
performers break cycles of self sabotage and reclaim trust in
themselves without fluff or therapy speak.
His raw neuroscience backed approach provokes clarity,
(12:43):
transformation and accountability at the deepest
level. So me sharing what I just
shared. Are you a recovering people
pleaser? Did you have trouble trusting
yourself in the past? What led you to this being your
thing? So before we get into that, I
just want to quickly dial in on something that you said and you
(13:04):
said that being a chameleon can be a good thing, but it can it
also comes with it's caveats, right?
Because then you kind of lose track of who you are.
I would push back on that a little.
And I would say that when you have a deep sense of self and a
deep understanding of yourself, it becomes the biggest asset
that you've got. Because what it means is you're
not. If you look at it from the
(13:25):
frames you're trying to please people, then yeah, it becomes
this thing that is subservient and you're trying to please
everyone else. When you look at it from the
point of view that you're tryingto help people get what they
want, and it comes from a place of, well, this is going to be
the best thing to help them get what they want.
And I'm in the business of helping people get what they
want. So this is just a skill.
(13:47):
This is a superpower because there are some people that are
so rigid in what they do. And as you start to really
unpack the layers of who you are, Rob, you start to get this
amazing thing that you can be flexible in this specific
context to help this person and lose absolutely nothing of who
you are as a person. And recognize that this is just
(14:09):
an extension of how you can showup to help people as opposed to
a shift in your identity. And they're two very different
things. Yes.
And that's, so that's, that's a great way of putting that
because as I've grown in this, Iknow that the more secure I am,
the more I trust myself, the higher my integrity I can still,
(14:31):
it's like I, I, I, I compare it to good leather.
Good leather is super bendable, but never breaks, right?
So you can bend to anybody, but you don't lose track of yourself
when you're in people pleasing mode.
You bend to everybody and totally lose yourself because
you're insecure, right? That's like an insecure
attachment compared to a secure attachment.
And so the more I build that secure attachment, the more I
(14:52):
can bend without totally losing myself in that.
That's really good. Thank you for that.
What? So what about you was that, was
that your story? How did this end up being what
you do? No man, no.
This ended up being what I do because I was a victim for like
(15:12):
1st 27 years of my life. And that's that was never an
easy thing to admit. It's it's never at the promise.
It's still not a fun thing to admit.
Now it it's good because I realized I've moved past it, but
it's it's not a fun thing to go.Yeah, you know what?
I was a victim. I didn't even know if it was 27
years of my life. I blamed everyone else for my
problems of blame this person for not getting promotion.
I blame that person for trying to screw me over and getting
(15:33):
kicked out of the Navy when the only thing that was happening
was I was a irresponsible, B reckless, C insecure and four,
putting on a show with this false bravado.
I was telling the world how amazing I was.
And it, it came tumbling down because the only common
denominator between me not getting what I want in every
(15:55):
facet of my life, whether it wasschool, whether it was work,
whether it was going to a new profession, whether it was the
women that I deserve to get, youknow, whatever junk I was
telling myself was me. And so I was like, you know
what? This person screwed me up and
this person did this. So you know what?
I'm going to go and I'm going tostudy language.
I'm going to make these people like keep their word to me.
(16:16):
That's how I got into this. It had nothing to do with
helping anyone else. It had nothing to do with like,
I'm going to help people. I'm going to help myself.
No, I was a victim till the bitter end.
I was dragging and screaming myself.
I was like, you know what peopleare going to do what I tell them
to do. There's going to be like
something I learned. And after a couple of years of
doing that, I discovered NLP andhypnosis and I went on a couple
(16:42):
of trainings and I had drastic shifts on those trainings, like
massive. And I came back and people saw
the change. They're like, oh, what did you
learn? So I started just like messing
around with them and they were so pumped about the change that
I helped them with and they, they felt different.
Their thoughts were clear, they felt the best they'd ever had
that they're recharged, they're ready to go again, they're re
(17:02):
inspired to take on life, they're motivated to try new
things. And I was like, wow, this is
really, I feel really good feeling this.
And it just kind of spawned out of that.
It was, it was never an intention.
I never had any desire to go down this path, but I seemed to
have a different approach. Have you ever done Jordan
(17:23):
Peterson's Big 5? So his personality assessment.
No, I haven't. So there's like 5 key
characteristics and I'm going tomess up what they are some.
Is that is that something you can take?
Do you take that online? Do you find?
Where do you find that at it's. Going to be another.
Question. Oh, don't.
Yeah, right. You don't need to.
I'll, I'll find it. Don't worry about it.
(17:44):
I mean, I'll dig it up. Go ahead, I'll dig on.
I'll get you. Carry on.
There's these certain characteristics and one of them
is compassion. And basically you're rated and
you go through all this questionnaire and you you rate
yourself and out of a room of 100, you get a percentile of
what you're in. And I was in, I always forget
how it works with percentiles, but I'm pretty sure I was in the
(18:05):
99th percentile, which means like out of a room of 199,
people were more compassionate than me.
And people were like, how the hell can you be a coach when you
don't have any compassion? I said it's pretty simple.
I do have compassion. It's just I care more about your
results. And if I focus on your feelings
(18:26):
all the time, I'm focusing on the same thing that keeping you
stuck because your emotions are keeping you stuck.
So I ignore them. OK, that's great that you're
feeling that and like, let's focus on what we really need to
do here. Let's focus on the
transformation these have. Let's focus on this that's.
Really, really good, by the way.I mean that.
That's so good, man. You care.
(18:47):
You're compassionate about results.
You're not compassionate about letting somebody stay where they
are, stuck in their emotions. You're compassionate in the
sense that you want to see them change.
That's really good. Yeah, you could.
You could also argue when I first got started, it was all
about ego, right? Yeah, sure.
I, I I. You're also winning.
Got the results and I had to exactly, you know, like, yeah,
I'm gonna yeah, get this and this is gonna be great.
(19:09):
And so there was that element. And then as I've evolved and as
I've gone down processes, so like I've done, I watched the
ceremonies. I've done multiple psilocybin
meditations and trips. I accidentally took like 1000
micrograms of LSD because I drank the wrong bottle that was
(19:30):
in the fridge. It was supposed to be for a
ceremony I was doing and then disappeared for 12 hours to, you
know, come back as a completely changed human being.
It was a very interesting experience, but I've done all
this work and gone through and had these processes and it's
it's allowed me to understand myself that actually that might
actually be the Jordan Pearson thing.
I think it might be understandmyself.com and don't
(19:52):
ask me why that's just come in, but I'm pretty sure that's what
is something around that one. And by going through this
process and you can go through aself authoring process, you can
go through this understand myself, you go through this big
person, you start to come and have a look at how you can fit
in the world, why you're having these roadblocks, how you can
start to shift these things. And it's a very self driven
process that can be extremely useful.
(20:13):
And it was extremely useful for me at the time of life that I've
been doing things. So I've just been going through
certain elements, right? I didn't have a bad childhood.
I had the standard run the mill childhood.
I was an 80s kid, was born in the 80s, right?
I played outside most of my life.
We were like the first kids to get the home consoles, right,
(20:33):
you know? But we still went to arcades, we
played outside, we used to come in after dark, we covered in
bruises and stuff like this. We were playing on the street,
throwing sand bricks at each other, like doing stupid thing
that boys do. And it was like a typical run of
childhood back then. Dads went to work, mum stayed at
home. My dad was a hotel manager, so I
never saw him. I didn't get to see him and
(20:55):
really get to hang out with him until I was like 15.
And I've said before I don't blame my parents for anything.
So we're clear. But I think not having my dad
around might have been. It's the only thing that comes
through as to why I went so far off the rails that I didn't
really have a male mentor to like, show me how to go through
(21:15):
the ropes. But I don't necessarily
subscribe, but that is what it is.
It's the only thing I can think of.
Like there's no massive sensitizing event as to why I
just went so far off the rails. Like I just don't know.
And I've done a lot of work myself.
I've worked with therapists, I've worked with cursed, I've
worked with hypnotists. Like I've done a lot of things
and nothing's ever really come up.
It's like, oh, this is the thingand this is the thing.
(21:37):
And you know, I had a really cool childhood.
I've got 2 loving parents. They're still married, they're
still together. I've got a really good brother
who we're exceptionally close now.
We fought tooth and nail. Like, I tried killing him.
Literally. I was chasing him down the
street with a butcher's cleaver,trying to chop him up because he
turned. I was in the shower and this son
(21:57):
of a gun man, I was in the shower having a great time, and
he just went to the tap and turned on the cold water.
And so that sucked all the cold water.
So I got all this scalding hot water all over me in the shower,
burning. So I started screaming, going
crazy. He bolted out the front door.
I bolted out after him. You know, I was running down the
street in a towel chasing you. It's my parents are coming down
the road. Like, what the hell is going on?
(22:19):
Needless to say, yeah, that's. I wouldn't.
Yeah, just just some sibling stuff, right?
Just some simple sibling rivalry.
Rivalry. Simple sibling, non-toxic
behaviour you. Know well, that's funny, man.
My, my what my wife and her sister, they used to threaten
each other with the kitchen knives and now they're they're
best of friends too, right? So don't worry about it.
(22:41):
I wanted to ask you because you said you're trying to, trying to
figure out why, right? And I, I, I came to a point
during therapy and I, my, my wife and I do counselling with a
lady that's been really helpful.But I don't go to individual
therapy anymore, but I do have acoach and I, I came over to this
point of some at some point in time.
(23:02):
It was like, it doesn't actuallymatter why because I can just
focus on, it's like you said, being compassionate about
getting results, right? I've switched my thinking to
like what it would be beneficialfor me not to just wonder why
and like, I have to figure this out.
No, just set a goal for the future, set a vision for the
future and that'll pull me out of whatever I'm in.
(23:24):
And I see you shaking your head.So you subscribe to that notion
as well. A. 100% So a lot of people say
do you know of a gentleman by the name of Eagle Ledhosky?
Did you say Eagle Edhosky? Igor Igor Ledhosky.
So no, I didn't say eagle then Eagle.
(23:48):
No, I never heard of him really.Good dude.
He's a conversational hypnotist.He's, he did a hypnosis training
Academy and I was when I first started out because I was
working with fighters. He's into martial arts.
I ended up being on his podcast.It was like the first thing I
did and I was way too green to be going on a podcast at that
stage, but it went anyway. Idiot move.
Anyway, when I was on his podcast, I still remember to
(24:10):
this day, he's like, oh, so you're a wounded healer?
And my reaction was like, what are you talking about, you crazy
fool? Like, no, I'm not a wounded
healer. Like I didn't go down this path
to like go and heal. Like I'm, I'm not like wounded
and it was just interesting thathe would label that archetype on
me. I'm like, OK, so now I need to
go dig to see if I am this like just to see if there's any
(24:32):
relevance to it because I'm always interested in what other
people can see. Maybe they see something I
don't. And so that's why I went down
the path of why for a while. And let me rephrase, it wasn't
even why. It was more of how how did I
manage to get so far off the railings because and that's
(24:53):
actually resurfaced now because I've got 7 going on 8 year old
stepdaughter and I now have a 3 1/2 going on 4 technically 14
year old son, right? You know, he just like knows
everything he tells what to do. So for me, the how was super
important because I want to be as available to my kids in a way
(25:21):
that for the best way possible, I create the best place and the
best platform for them to know they've got the support to know
that. I mean, I can pick up on it.
I can start seeing things. I've done a lot of training in
this. So I'll be able to see when
things are going, but more so tosee like, hey, like was there
something that started to call me there?
And like, how could I do it differently and how could I show
(25:43):
up and how could I correct it? And so to look at that from more
of an analysis point of view, I was like, what's the processes
and the mechanisms I can put in place?
And so that was more like the massive drive.
The the why was just, it was just so confusing to me that I
managed to get so derailed off of something that to me it.
(26:06):
Have you seen the movie Dodgeball?
Yeah. Right, unlike Average Joe
Gymnasium, I'm not trying to show you this fancy shop there
like 'cause I was like, I'm justthis average guy.
I've got nothing really spectacular.
I'm nothing special. I'm a special snowflake in a
snowstorm with a million other special snowflakes.
Like we're all special snowflakes.
(26:27):
So yes, I'm special, but so is everyone else.
And we've all got different qualities and different
strengths. And it was just, for me, it was
more fascinating to understand how the brain went down that
path, what triggered certain things.
I go like, oh, cool, So what? Maybe I could apply this and
maybe this could go here. I'm just fascinated with how it
worked. And that was more the driving
factor behind that. Yeah, that's as a I'm the very
(26:51):
theoretical person, I totally can understand that.
It's like why, how, knowing the theory behind it and I, you can
get lost in that too, right? You can get lost in wondering
why and never take action. So you've got to find a healthy
balance of those two things. We're going to take a break real
quick. When we come back though, I want
to talk about people's intuition, right?
(27:14):
So how do we have a clear connection between our intuition
and our ability to truly recognize misaligning signals
and how we get that wrong? We'll talk about that in one
minute. Are you struggling to make
consistent, valuable content foryourself?
Do you want to have an efficientand effective way to create
(27:35):
content that attracts the peoplethat you want to connect with in
life, the people you want to build relationships with in
business? Do you want to be the go to
authority at what you do, at what you're great at?
Would it be helpful for you if you had a platform that connects
you to incredible people in yourindustry?
The kind of platform that gets you leads and lands you clients
without you having to beat down anybody door or blow up
(27:56):
anybody's inbox? Whether you're already creating
content or you're desiring to start and it's something that's
been kind of burning inside of you for a while, I urge you and
encourage you to check out the Pro Podcaster Academy.
Get started right now. Join the wait list at
robzwentz.com. Hi, my name is Jose Escobar and
I'm the founder and CEO of the Connected Leaders Academy.
(28:18):
We're a growing tribe, a community of entrepreneurs all
over the world, globally. If you're an entrepreneur and
you're looking to grow personally and professionally,
scale your influence, develop your skill sets, move the needle
in your business, more clients, more money, more profit, the
bottom line and of course, grow your circle in your network like
never before Join the connected leaders Academy today.
(28:41):
Check me out on Instagram and onFacebook The at symbol Jasco 25.
We look forward to having you join us.
Take care. So Clay, loving this
conversation. It's really good, really
important too. This stuff's really important
and I always, we started talkingeven before we started talking.
I was thinking of the expressionwhen somebody shows you who they
(29:05):
are, believe them. So I was putting that in with
the whole concept of trust. What are your thoughts on that
statement? When somebody shows you who they
are, believe them. What does that mean to you?
How do you apply that? So words can be filtered, the
body can't, not completely. You can be trained and you can
(29:29):
be trained to beat lie detector tests.
You can be trained to do certainelements, I guess possible, but
there's always tells if you pay attention to what's happening.
And so there are movements that would indicate high stress.
There are movements that would indicate deception.
There's linguistic patterns thatwould also indicate deception.
(29:50):
When you get amalgamation of allof those coming together, then
you start to get a very visceralfeedback system happening where
you can start to decipher like someone is telling you, yeah
man, everything's all good. Like we're solid, no problem.
But their body language is slightly off, their tone is
shifted, and there's just certain elements that are
(30:12):
stacking up that are very different to their baseline.
The deviated from their baselineof how they normally show up.
And you will get that. You'll get that as like a gut
check. Now to give you an example of
how you could figure this out, funnily enough, I got asked this
question really recently. So it's it seems to be the thing
that a lot of people want to know.
(30:34):
Is there a food that no matter where it was served from, I mean
no matter where, no matter it was served on a gold plated
dish, you would not touch it? Sure, probably sardines.
All right, cool. So I want you to imagine that
(30:54):
we're out to a restaurant, right?
And then the waiter comes over to you and says, OK, Rob, thank
you for coming. We've got this perfect special
for you. It's on the House.
Here is the most exquisite flavoured sardines you're ever
going to have. And he puts those sardines down
in front of you. What happens inside of you as
(31:16):
you see the sardines on the plate in front of you, right
that what just happened internally?
What am I supposed to do here? You know, that's what happened
internally is like, I'm not going to eat this.
How do I get how do I get out ofthis without hurting this guy's
feelings? That's.
(31:36):
What internally happened in yourthoughts?
What internally happened in terms of your Physiology?
Because you actually started to tense up and you had a little
tension in your chest. Yeah, I kind of like, I probably
shrunk down a little. Bit too like, exactly.
Yeah. So that is a no from your
nervous system. It's saying this is a no deal.
(31:58):
We don't want this. We're not interested in this.
So you can start tuning into certain things like that and
start seeing that your body is telling you no.
Like this is no good for us. We don't want this.
And it's picking up on things that are out of your conscious
awareness. Similarly, let's say that no
matter where you were, there wasa food that if you assert that
(32:18):
you're going to eat it every single time, what would it be?
Watermelon. There you go.
Right. That was very right.
OK. You're even feeling it right
now. Oh, yeah.
OK, let's let's go serve. Me, I just had some before the
podcast. I was.
Eating Oh, there you go. I'm.
Like, yeah, it's on. It's on the brain.
So when you think about diving into like, the most luscious,
(32:39):
delicious watermelon you've everhad and having it served up in,
I don't know, some fancy new waythat you've never had before,
but it's delicious, how does that respond in the body?
Yeah, man, I'm excited. Like, let's go.
Right. And where do you feel that?
Where did I feel it? Yeah.
(32:59):
I guess kind of in my it was kind of in my chest and like my
upper and my shoulders. And what was happening like if
you were to describe it to me soI could do the.
Same. Oh, man.
Yeah. Again, I got a little, I got a
little tingly, you know, I got alittle bit like a jolt, like,
oh, that's exciting, you know? So then that is an internal yes.
Yeah. So you can start paying
attention to that kind of thing to see, OK, this is a yes for
(33:21):
me, this is a no for me. And you can start really paying
attention and you'll see that those signals that they're
subtle, but they're there. And the more you attune to them,
the more you'll start to connectwith what people call intuition.
But it's really just like your body showing you sensors that
are things that it deems are good for you and it is deeming
as bad for you. And so let's say you're going
(33:41):
down a deal and then you start getting like, this feels off,
right? You're checking in to see if
it's that same sensation that, you know, you get these
beautiful sightings, Rob, just imagine right here, all for you,
right? You're getting that It's like
that same thing, like, OK, pay attention.
When you get that signal, it means pay attention.
(34:04):
It doesn't mean it's a bad deal.It doesn't mean it's the worst
thing in the world. It means pay attention.
Stop trusting what's in your head about who this person is,
what this deal is supposed to be.
It's attention to the reality ofeverything that's being
presented to you right now. That's a really good point too.
That's, that's super helpful because in those moments, well,
(34:28):
number one, if I, if I want to say no, you know, it's, it's if
your body's telling you no to, to act on that immediately,
because I was thinking, as you were saying that right there was
a, a recent situation where I was a job opportunity was
presented to me. That was exactly what I wanted
and I felt really good about it until I processed it more,
(34:50):
understood how much I was going to get paid for doing this job.
And it I was not anywhere near what I need to get paid to do
the job for the hours it's goingto require.
But everything in me was saying,yes, do it because it aligned so
much with who I am. But then that one factor was
like, well, yeah, but that doesn't make sense right now.
(35:10):
That wouldn't work. So in the moment, if I would
have acted, I would have just said yes and then been like, oh,
crap, now what have I done? Now I have to go back and to
tell them no because the pay is not right or whatever.
So yes, paying attention. Great point.
So whenever and whenever you feel that something is off, make
(35:33):
sure that you pay attention. So not necessarily reacting
right away, but pay attention towhat is said and also pay
attention to what you continue to feel throughout that.
Yep. Absolutely.
So give me an example for yourself.
I just so I can get a better understanding, wrap my head
around it more in a practical sense for you.
How? How has this played out?
(35:54):
So when I was developing, I developed an app called Riff
Moyer 2019. And so we're clear, it tanks.
Man, I never even got to the final products.
I tanked over just over 3/4 of $1,000,000.
It's not not my proudest moment in business, but, you know, some
(36:15):
people get like a dog with a bone and they just don't want to
let go. I want to see the vision
through. And so I put everything into it.
It came to the point where I hadto cut it off because I was down
to my last 20 grand. And I had to, you know, keep
surviving and supporting my family.
And you've got no money. I'm in Thailand.
There's no safety and there's nonothing.
What are you going to do? So I'd kill it.
(36:36):
And so I regrouped and went a different way.
But throughout that process, I hired an expert who was an
acquaintance. A friend is a bit of a stretch,
but he's an acquaintance. He's a nice guy.
And we had an agreement and it was a handshake agreement.
And he was going to steal the team and project manage the
(36:56):
development for me. And we were going to build this
app together. And I was going to test the
Android version. He was going to test the iOS
version and then we got to two weeks out to launch time.
We got on call with Devout and I'm like, OK, what's going on?
We're missing so much here. Like no, no, no.
Like we've done all the back end.
We're just missing the front end.
I didn't know my backside from my front side when it comes to
app development, so I had no idea what was missing and what
(37:18):
was going on, but it just didn'tseem right.
I'm like, oh, OK, so I completely overwrote it.
I'm like, oh, they said it's OK,so it must be OK.
And like my body's screaming, wake up, man, wake up.
This is not right. Anyway, we get to launch day and
it's like a complete disaster that you can't launch the app.
I've got to tell everyone who's already paid like they'll people
that pre sold on the idea. I had like over 300 applications
(37:42):
for it, ended up putting throughlike I vetted everyone, put
through like 120 people on the program and it was like huge.
I was like, I'm doing really well.
This is great. It's going to be such a great
thing. Like I'm really putting this
thing together. Anyway, come to find out that
there is no iOS app. I'm like, what?
I thought you were testing it like, well, no, like it didn't
(38:05):
really happen. Like, So what have you been
doing? So now I'm like, OK, is it the
development team that's messing me about or is it the project
manager? Now I don't know.
I'll give the development team the benefit of the doubt because
the project manager literally told me he was doing this thing
and he didn't do that thing. So I'm like, OK, we can figure
it out, it'll be fine. How wrong I was.
(38:28):
So there I continued with this development team and they just
carried on missing deadlines andtelling me certain things and,
you know, tell them porcupines and lies and all the drama just
carried on unfolding. And so it got to a point where
it came to a head and I said, look, this is not acceptable.
You guys are not acceptable. You haven't delivered on your
end. I paid you more than what you
asked for. We're not continuing like, I'm
(38:48):
done. This deal's off.
Oh, no, Sir, we can still do. We can do this.
We'll work for him. Like, I don't want it, man.
Like, this is not, we're six months behind schedule.
You told me you could build it in four months.
So not only could you not build it in four months, you couldn't
build it in eight months becausewe're six months behind
schedule. We're done.
Like this is just not happening.And I then went and hired
(39:10):
another team. I did the hiring, I hired the
project manager. I vetted everyone.
It was good, but they started putting some shady stuff because
it was all remote. I didn't really get to see
anyone. I couldn't really track the
code. I didn't have a technical expert
anymore. And so I set myself up to fail
that way third time round, whichis the last year's effort.
(39:33):
I hired all my own team. I hired my own technical
director that reported directly to me who I was paying, who
would tell me exactly what's going on and was running the
team and everything was firing. And I wish I'd started that way
because I was burning through around about 40 grand a month.
And yeah, after 5 1/2 months, I just had to kill it because I
(39:53):
just didn't like, we were so close to cracking it.
But I, I'd run out of cash. I'd killed my marketing budget.
I'd been, I twice. I trained up a team, I trained
up customer service. I trained up coaches to like be
live on the app and work. I trained like everything, pay
for their support for three months to get them all trained
up and ready to go. And then the app couldn't launch
(40:14):
and I paid them for like anothermonth or two and then it still
wasn't ready. So I had to fire them.
And then when I reached out to them to come back again, they're
like, looks like, thanks, we appreciate it, but we've got
other jobs now we can't. So I had to go and hire a whole
bunch more people, do it all over again.
And then it all failed again. So it was just.
Oh my man. A mix of signals, you know, and
I didn't pay attention. I wasn't paying attention to the
(40:35):
reality. I was still paying attention to
like, well, this is a trustworthy person.
They're not going to do this like this is.
We've done this and so I was very much victim to that and not
paying attention to the reality of what was happening, present
time and paying attention to like this is the person that I
hired. So this is obviously the same
person that's showing up today. Yeah.
And and you also, you invested all that money and being that
invested that makes it the more time and the more finances are
(41:00):
invested, the harder it is to just disband the whole thing,
right? Yes.
And I think the issue and what eventually came to be true for
me was recognizing that the how wasn't really as important as
the why and the what in that case.
(41:20):
So the app was going to deliver change and it was fantastic when
it worked like it was brilliant and it did exactly what I wanted
to do and the feedback I got wasjust next level.
It was perfect, but I could, thewhole point of me doing this was
to help people change and help like a grander scale of people
change. It's more affordable than
working with me to 1 to 1. So I could just go ahead and
(41:43):
deliver an online cohort programthat builds with most of the
things that has in it, has like 80% of the stuff in there and
deliver like 80% of the results with 20% of the investment and
the effort and everything like that.
And so when I woke up to the fact that I was just kidding
myself to cry and go and do thisthing, I was like, let's just do
what we know how to do. And so I did that.
(42:05):
So if you would have been, you know, hindsight 2020, when would
you have stepped in and what would you have done differently
in the beginning, like right offthe bat?
I wouldn't have even hired that project major.
But even before that, yeah, before that, like not knowing
your technical, not having the technical expertise, but knowing
(42:28):
the impact and change, what would you have go like the whole
way back to the beginning? How would you have approached it
differently listening to, because the intuition tells you
to go towards the app and head in that direction.
The first signs of all this doesn't feel right.
How would you have done it now? Well, the different process
(42:49):
would be I'd go straight for my own team and I wouldn't
outsource to an agency because when both times, while my own
team was more expensive, both times when I went with an
agency, there was no ownership of the agency because like, I'll
just go, I'll just go to anotherproject within my team.
They're not reporting directly with me.
They're reporting to their team and then their team's reporting
(43:10):
to me. So there was no, there was no
connection with the project. When I had my own team, I could
vet them, I could make sure there was a values alignment.
I could make sure they were invested in the project.
I could make sure they were interested in what they were
developing. Do they have an interest in self
development? Were they interested in this
kind of thing? And so when they saw the
project, they were like 100% on board.
Like this is amazing. And they even stayed like, look,
I'll work for you for another two months for free.
(43:31):
I'm like, I can't ask you to do that, man.
That's not OK. You know, like that's how
invested they were. And so the I would go from that
frame of reference, but the mostimportant thing I'd do is I'd
bring on a technical expert thatwould be able to verify what's
going on and just like a fractional CTO.
So I'm sure I did in the end andhave them just verify and check,
(43:53):
OK, what's happening with the code?
Are they actually making progress?
Is this moving in the right direction?
So they're not doing the coding,but they're just checking and
verifying, and they're making upfor my lack of subject matter
expert knowledge. Yeah.
And as you're saying that, it's like finding people that share
in your vision, right? So your own team is going to
share more in the vision than anoutsourced company that has a
(44:16):
bunch of other projects going on, right #1 So a shared vision,
like even if they're not you, they're not going to be able to
see it exactly how you see it, but they're going to be able to
understand that vision and, and follow through better.
And then somebody who mentorship, right?
Somebody who understands something at a deep level,
bringing them in to be the eyes and ears for it.
(44:39):
It's a huge lesson to learn. It's a huge piece of the puzzle
that we miss out on so many times.
That cut costs to expediate things, to speed things up when
usually those sorts of things are short.
Cuts are usually a hindrance in the long run, I don't think in
all cases, but in something likethat it sounds like that was the
case. I got advised by a couple of my
(45:01):
friends who were way more technical than I am, and I told
them that I'm going to build my own team.
They're like, don't do it, just go with an agency because
there's things you're not going to know.
There's unknown knowns, unknown unknowns, and all these other
things that are going to rain down on you.
So just like you're not going toknow what you don't know yet, no
one knows what they don't know. That's the whole point of not
knowing it. Like, OK.
(45:23):
And I would have just listened to myself because in my gut, I
really want to just build my ownteam.
And so I would have started withmy own team two years before I
ended up starting. And I would have started with my
full budget and I likely would have ended up having an app.
Interesting man, great example. Thank you for that.
I appreciate that and this is this conversation's been so
(45:44):
good. We got to wrap it up, but I
really value your time. Clay.
This has been awesome. I want to encourage people to
get your book trust trapbook.com.
Do you want to share a little bit about the book?
So the book is kind of, it's notkind of.
The book is an amalgamation of possibly what I think is one of
the most useful things and useful frames that can stop
(46:06):
people who find themselves in positions where they keep
repeating patterns that leave them in positions of, let's just
say, for lack of a better word, vulnerability.
They leave them exposed, and notin a good way, right?
Sometimes being vulnerable and being vulnerable by choice is a
great thing, but being vulnerable because someone's
(46:26):
taking advantage of you or because you keep falling into
the same pattern because you think that trust means this when
it actually means something completely different.
Well, there's two different things.
There's two different protocols and processes and ways to go
about that so that you can starthaving the results that you want
to have. And in essence, it was written
because I had this like one chance, this one window where I
(46:50):
can make a difference in the world because I was facing
blindness, like permanent darkness with being blind in my
left eye. My right eye started going out
in November last year. And then the surgery that I had
to have was the surgery that took my vision away ultimately
in 2010 in my left eye. And so I was very, very aware,
let's say, that it could go the other way.
(47:11):
And I wouldn't be having this conversation with you today
because I wouldn't be able to see you.
So it would have been a very different process for me.
And so this was the book. It was the thing that I think
could make the most difference. It was the thing that I think
could be used as a tactical manual to show you how to create
self trust. And when you change the way that
(47:33):
you view trust, you change the way that you view the world and
the world views you because it now it's no longer me versus the
world, it's how do I align with the world?
Yeah, that's really good. How do you align with the world?
I, I, I love man that it's such an important topic.
It's such a powerful, less so many powerful lessons to be
(47:54):
learned there. So I encourage everybody to get
that trust. trapbook.com. As we end this thing as I always
do, if say you and I never talk again.
People watching and listening, they never hear from you again.
What is 1 lasting message that you'd love to share to leave
everybody with? If you're on a journey of self
development, if and if not and you haven't started yet, then
(48:19):
this is possibly one of the mostimportant things that I've
learned from me personally. And once you understand this,
you, you understand yourself in a way that just changes how you
show up in the world forever. There's a common thing that
people saying like you're not broken, there's nothing wrong
with you, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
(48:39):
But when most people start theirself development journey,
they're trying to fill some kindof internal void.
I know I was for many years. And they're trying to find this
external thing that's going to fix this internal thing.
And if you start from the premise that you're broken, then
nothing that you do that's goingto come from outside of you is
(49:00):
ever going to fix the thing that's broken internally.
If you, however, come from a premise that there's nothing
actually wrong, literally nothing, and yeah, sure, you may
have ADHD or ADD, you might be slightly depressed at the
moment, you might be burned out.I'm not disputing those things.
What I mean is, as a human being, you're not flawed, right?
(49:25):
You have within you this structure, this mechanism,
foundation that has had all thisconditioning plopped on top of
it. But that core unit of who you
are, that you started within this world, that is not flawed.
And so you're never on a journeyto try and fix yourself.
(49:46):
You're on a journey to just let go of the layers that you've
accepted as yourself that art. Great point.
Much easier said than done right?
A lifelong journey of figuring it out, but very true, man.
Yeah, that is a really good way of looking at it because all the
(50:06):
things, everything that you see is like a curse in your life is
a gift, depending on how you look at it, depending on how you
utilize it. And, and, and learning about
yourself, learning your personality and, and how you are
and who you are starts to see like, oh, OK, well this is, I
act this way because of this. I did this thing because of
these things. And those things aren't, they
(50:28):
don't mean that I'm broken. They just mean that I'm wired a
certain way and I have to. I had to learn how to get back
to my original wiring system is what I hear you saying.
There's so many, so many variables there.
All right, man. Thank you, Clay.
That was awesome. Thank you for the time.
Another incredible true testimony of breakthrough on the
show. Until next time.
This has been the unstuck movement.
(51:16):
Hey awesome brother.
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