October 31, 2025 • 43 mins
What happens when unimaginable loss becomes the doorway to spiritual awakening? In this heartfelt and transformative episode, Dave Roberts opens up about the death of his daughter Jeannine — and how her passing led him on a profound journey of healing, forgiveness, and the discovery that love and consciousness transcend death itself. You’ll hear how Dave’s background in psychology, his spiritual experiences, and his work with grieving parents have shaped his message of hope for anyone facing life-altering pain.
This episode is with David J. Roberts.
David J. Roberts, MSW, LMSW, became a parent who experienced the death of a child, when his daughter Jeannine died of cancer on March 1, 2003, at the age of 18. He is a retired addiction professional and an adjunct professor in the psychology child life department at Utica University in Utica, New York. Dave also teaches psychology classes at Pratt Munson School of Art and Design. He is the host of The Teaching Journeys Podcast, which can be found on most podcast platforms.
Dave’s commitment to helping others navigate grief is a result of the challenges that he experienced following the death of his daughter, Jeannine. He has appeared as a guest on several radio and television shows and was part of a panel on BBC’s World Have Your Say, discussing the death of Carrie Fisher.
Find out more about David J. Roberts by visiting The Teaching Journeys Podcast.
Listeners can explore Dave’s book, When The Psychology Professor Met The Minister, to uncover how spiritual experiences and psychology intertwine to create pathways toward healing after profound loss. His story offers guidance for anyone seeking to transform grief into growth and rediscover purpose after tragedy.
🔑Rob Z Wentz is a Leadership Communication Expert. Rob teaches, trains, and develops people and organizations to become exceptional communicators and leaders. With Rob, leaders find clarity, take action, and succeed with integrity, making them “the expert” in their industry.
💻Learn more about LIT Coaching & Schedule a call w/ Rob at LeadImpactTransform.com
Discover everything about Rob Z 📲 Linktr.ee/RobZWentz
🌐Build Your Brand: Join the Pro Podcaster Academy at RobZWentz.com
🔑Rob is also a Christian entrepreneur, founder of The Unstuck Movement (on all social & podcast platforms), best-selling author, social media marketer and strategist, award-winning radio personality, speaker, and influencer. For over 20 years Rob has been leading people to communicate at a higher level.
The Unstuck Movement Is Sponsored By:
The CLA 👏 ConnectedLeadersAcademy.com
📲Contact Jose Escobar
💪The Unstuck Movement: True Testimonies of Breakthrough - Available on all social media and podcast platforms.
Do you want to be featured on incredible podcasts AND find amazing guests to feature on your platform? Join PodMatch - www.joinpodmatch.com/usm
LIT🔥Coaching | Lead, Impact, Transform
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:24):
Welcome back to the Unstuck movement.
Today we are with Dave Roberts on the show talking about the
bridge between psychology and spirit.
I'm really excited to have Dave on today for this conversation.
So just to give you an idea of, of what we're going to talk
about today, we're going to cover spiritual transformation,
life after loss, consciousness and healing, forgiveness and,
(00:47):
and how do we really forgive and, and move forward and grief
and growth. A light hearted episode, right?
Some, some very important topicsto cover.
Dave is a bereaved father, author and professor who turned
his daughter's passing into a powerful mission to help others
heal. His insights blend psychology,
spirituality, and lived experience to guide people
(01:08):
through grief toward peace and renewed purpose.
And Dave, I love to jump in witha question up front.
And, you know, grief is something and grieving is
something that some people neverget through and that it goes on
for the, for the rest of their life and that they don't go
through that grieving process. And it can really torment
people. And I, I know people in my own
personal life that have experienced that and still seem
(01:30):
to be tormented by that process.How can grief become a teacher
rather than a tormentor? Well, first of all, Rob, thank
you for having me on the UnstuckMovement podcast.
I've been looking forward to ourconversation for, for a while
now. So thank you for creating space
for me to share what I've learned about grief with your
(01:51):
audience. But I think the first, the first
requirement for allowing grief to be your teacher is first is
to be open to that. Because typically, as you
mentioned, we're talking about alot of different topics related
to death that many individuals in Western society see as taboo
topics to talk about. They have a very difficult time.
(02:12):
So the first thing is to be ableto reframe and see, see that
even the worst moments in our grief can, can teach us.
For me, grief was a teacher. For me, and this is going up,
I'm going to kind of break this up into early, middle and
perhaps the later phase of grief.
First of all, just as familiarize your audience.
(02:33):
I'm no, I'm no stranger to griefs, no stranger to loss.
I've experienced a dance with death since I've been five years
old. The the loss that really threw
me headlong into the field of dantology or death and dying and
and as a result of the challengewith with that loss helped me
commit to a life of service was the death and I call now the
(02:56):
transition of my daughter Janineto a new existence.
She was 18 years old and when she transitioned on March 1st,
2003 of a very rare form of connective muscle tissue sarcoma
and she transitioned 10 months after giving birth to her first
and only child. So that's the, that's the
(03:16):
framework for which all of this,all of our, the following, you
know, questions and discussion are going to come from.
But for me and really grief, I, I needed to, to allow the, allow
the, the emotions, the, the disconnectedness, the questions,
(03:37):
the what ifs, I needed to, I needed to go through that in
order to first, first of all, embrace that early phase of
grief, but secondly, also to begin to set the framework to
move through grief. All of that stuff was required.
The what ifs, sitting with, you know, my, my darkest moments,
not trying to run away from that, finding moments of joy
(04:00):
within the sadness. All of that taught me that that
we could one, survive even our worst moments.
But secondly, that life isn't all about happiness.
It's about embracing those moments that aren't happy.
And it's about learning from those moments that aren't happy
because that is the key to genuineness.
The the other thing that I allowed grief to, to be a
(04:21):
teacher for me, and this progressed from early to to, I'd
say middle was allowing myself to be open to support from
support groups that that resonated with me, that has
contained parents that also experienced the death of a
child. To be open to talking to other
individuals who were 567 years ahead of, ahead of me in my
(04:44):
journey to see what they did to get there to, to, to read
anything I could get my hands onthat would help me normalize the
grief process and give me some additional tools to work
through. And finally making a decision to
begin to gradually re engage in life and try to, to, to take a
(05:05):
look at the challenges that I had as a result of my, my
daughter's transition and ask myself, what can I do to be of
service to others? Whether it's through my, my
teaching at Utica University, through bereavement support, how
can I turn what had happened to me into some meaningful moments?
And also leaving a legacy in honor of my daughter and with my
(05:26):
daughter in service to others. The final part of this
transformation for me was being open to perspectives that
normally I would not have been open to because of my psychology
and science based belief system.Your pure serendipity.
I met an interfaith minister by the name of Reverend Patty for
(05:46):
Reno. And it also take Rob another
hour to even set up how we even met.
But it was if I kind of qualifies into you, you know, I,
I couldn't make this stuff up. OK, that's what that qualify it
is. But your pure serendipity.
I found myself at her home in Long Island during the weekend
(06:09):
of November 11th, 2010, seven years after my daughter
transitioned, and she facilitated A spiritually
transformative experience that convinced me that not only was
my my daughter's spirit still alive, but that I could learn to
transform the relationship with her so I could create that
continued bond. It also began to plant the seeds
(06:33):
for me, understanding that the survival of consciousness is
real. Could you, could you go a little
bit more into that? I'm, I'm curious, that sounds
incredible and life changing. What was it about, about her?
What was it that, that led you to like have this, this trust in
(06:56):
her? And what, what was that?
What was that experience? What were the the components of
that experience? Well, I think Rob, the trust was
initially built when we first connected over a phone call.
I was in charge of, I was not incharge when I was on the
committee for, for conference planning for a grief conference
that we have going on here in upstate New York.
(07:19):
All registration was done online.
But before she could submit her choices and her billing
information, her computer blacked out.
And we kind of figured that was divine intervention or, or
intervention from a spiritual force in the universe to get us
together. Because had her computer not
not, you know, blacked out, she would have never had to call me
(07:40):
to register over the phone. So we, we talked for about 45
minutes. At the time, she was a volunteer
minister for the Angel of Hope in Long Island.
The Angel of Hope is a statue that's erected so that parents
who have experienced the death of a child can honor their
children at that statue. You know, I told her about
(08:03):
Janine. She told me about a couple of
significant children and death had crossed her path, that she
had developed a connection with that, that their, her, their
deaths moved her, you know, emotionally and, and, and
otherwise. So that's, and we just, we just
made a pact to meet at the conference.
(08:24):
And then when she she we exchanged a hug at the
conference, she whispered in my ear, she said, I think your
daughter sent me a rainbow. Now I'm going to backtrack when
during our conversation, Patty said, do you believe in signs?
And I said, you know, Patty, I've never really gone for that
stuff. I'm science based.
I believe that behavior can onlyunder be under be stood through
(08:48):
our own rational senses. But I said, I think my daughter
did send me a rainbow. Father's Day 2009.
It was a double rainbow and my wife had called me because I was
on my computer doing something called Dave.
Dave, you got to got to see this.
I think your, I think your daughter sent you a rainbow.
There's a big double rainbow in this guy and there's no rain,
(09:10):
nothing. It just appeared and there were
other things that were happeningthat got me to question, you
know, is this science? Is this like, is this some other
type of phenomena that's going on?
I thought there might have been something more even before I met
Patty, but I couldn't reconcile it.
I was maybe afraid to reconcile it, unwilling to reconcile it
(09:32):
with my core beliefs. So.
And as it turns out that a couple of weeks before the
conference, Patty herself saw a double rainbow.
OK. And, and they were so her and
her husband Merkel were so takenby it.
This was a double rainbow acrossRoute 17 in New Jersey.
(09:52):
And there was not a sky. There's not a cloud in the sky,
very similar to my experience. And so they were videotaping it,
taking pictures of it. And all of a sudden she's
sitting on top of her car and she hears a voice in her head
saying, I need you to talk to myfather.
And so she she attended to the voice and said, well, I, I'd be
be happy to. But who is your father?
(10:14):
There's a guy you talked to about the conference.
I did not know this until probably well after the fact.
I didn't know this at all. OK, In the meantime, we're going
to Fast forward to the conference.
And I know I'm jumping all around, but I'm going to try to
make this as condensed as possible.
I'm taking three of our podcastsor three of our, excuse me, our
(10:35):
conference presenters up to the Adirondacks to see the change of
change of leaves in, in the, in scenery in the fall.
And they're having this intense conversation about spirituality.
And I looked up at the sky, saidto no one in particular, I think
it was God or my higher power. I want to be where they are.
And all I wanted was to maybe have more knowledge of
spirituality to get me to that next step.
(10:58):
At the time, my soul, I realizednow my soul is crying for
something that my head couldn't wrap wrap around.
I wanted more of a of a spiritual perspective.
So when I got to Patty's and sheand I had the spiritually
transformative experience, the first thing that happened is
that we're sitting in her livingroom after a workshop that we
(11:20):
attended through a mutual college.
This is at 9:30 at night. She gets out, she assumes the
cross leg position, much like the like a young person would do
and much like my daughter used to do.
And she looked at me and she goes, why don't you listen to
music anymore? That was not her talk.
And that was my daughter talking.
OK. And this whole weekend went like
(11:40):
this. I didn't question a thing, Rob,
because I look back on it. I didn't question it because I
asked for this intention. I, my intention was I wanted
something more. And I not only did I get more
understanding of spirituality, Igot a whole new perspective, not
only from that weekend, but in the subsequent conversations
(12:00):
that we've had over, you know, the, over a 10 year period and
beyond. It's 15 years now into our
relationship, our friendship andwhere we talked about how
psychology and spirituality can integrate to help individuals
transcend challenge, understand their place in the universe,
enhance their relationship with themselves and eventually find
(12:23):
peace with an acceptance with their life being the way it is.
Regardless of the candid cars that were that were dealt in
them. So I got all of this and it
started with the blacked out computer, my intention to the
universe that I wanted somethingmore and and perhaps the most
powerfully spiritual transformative experience I've
(12:45):
ever had in my life. Thank you for sharing that.
I, I'm, I'm curious, you know, I've had many spiritual
experiences myself and some of them have really stuck with me.
I'm curious for yourself and foranybody who's ever, you know,
had a spiritual experience, how do you hold on to, to something
(13:07):
like that and carry it into yourlife?
Right, 'cause I know it can havea profound effect, but how have
you like kind of applied it to your life moving forward?
You said that had him back in what, 2010?
So you know well the fifteen well. 15 years ago, so you're
still still talking about it, It's still had it such a
profound impact. How do you how do you apply it
(13:28):
to your life from then to now? Well, but I, I apply it
particularly in I'll go go one aspect of my life, one probably
one at a time, but by students, OK, I teach death, dying and
bereavement, care of the human spirit at Utica University in
(13:49):
Utica, NY, among other courses. But those two courses pretty
much informed my philosophy. So, you know, we talked about
the spiritual aspects of death. We talked about how holistic
practices and care of the human spirit, like yoga, like
meditation, you know, near we also talked about near death
experiences in both of those classes, how they can shape our
(14:09):
understanding of the world, improve our physical and mental
health, and, you know, just allow us to broaden our
perspective. So for me, that integrative
philosophy drives what I do withteaching.
Now I need to make one thing clear to you and to your to your
audience, Rob, is that just because I have just because I
(14:32):
believe the way I believe and I'm passionate about what I
believe, doesn't mean everybody has to believe the way I
believe. And I tell individuals that I
throw this out there to plant seeds to, to get you to think
about different perspectives andfind your truth within those
perspectives. So I basically just put that out
(14:53):
there for consideration. And if individuals don't find
any truth in what I've said, then they have at least come to
a decision. I tell them that you don't have
to believe how I believe, but I want you to open yourself up to
the possibilities that if we broaden our perspective, we may
not look at life, death or life after death the same.
And so I and I try to prepare mystudents for anything that that
(15:15):
they could come across in working with individuals with
death and dying, and that includes the spiritual aspects.
I love that because real, real quick, I think it's so important
just to know we can't, you can'tforce anything on anybody and
you can't change anybody. But you can plant seeds, like
you said, and that's what you'resupposed to do, right?
(15:35):
If you've had something that transformed you, that had such a
profound impact on you, it is your duty to plant those seeds
because you don't know how. You don't know who's gonna water
the seeds. You don't know who's gonna
harvest the plant. You don't know how that's all
gonna happen. It doesn't matter, right?
Just know that you're you're supposed to plant those seeds.
So I love that. It's such a core concept because
(15:57):
sometimes we can get caught up in, well, why even say anything?
It's not going to make a difference.
Or it can be I have to force this on this person and make
them believe what I'm saying. And those things are irrational
and impossible to do, so just plant the seeds.
Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, and if we can
do that, we establish ourselves as listeners.
And this is what this this experience has also helped me to
(16:19):
do. I've always thought I'd been a
good listener, but I become a better listener.
And once you establish yourself as a non judgmental listener,
where let's say you and I have adifferent philosophy in terms of
what spirituality looks like, well, we can still coexist
because there's many different ways to carve a spiritual path.
There's so many spiritual holistic practices and religions
(16:43):
and cultures. But I can sit and try to
understand how you came to your perception.
So your perspective, you can askme the same question.
And not only are we creating space to embrace difference, but
we're also creating space to listen for similarity.
And if we can do that with each other, I think I, I think we
(17:04):
can, we can see more similarity than we can difference.
And the, the, the thing that I've run into and I've seen this
is like somebody saying, well, my way to grieve is better than
your way to grieve. Well, no, I, I mean, we, we
grieve in a way that makes sensefor us.
It's what can we learn from eachother's respective styles that
we can incorporate into our existing belief systems that can
(17:26):
help us expand our perspective and expand our knowledge and
create greater awareness of ourselves and our relationship
to the world around us and make us better companions to
individuals who are going through challenge.
So how did Janine's passing reshape your understanding of
consciousness? Right.
So you, you had this experience with the rainbow, the double
(17:48):
rainbow, and so did the, the woman that you were speaking
about had this experience with the double rainbow.
And what was what was Janine's, I guess her, her message?
What did you interpret her message was to you, and how has
it changed your perception of consciousness?
Well, I think the message that Iget and I still get, you know,
(18:09):
signs from Janine, I get a lot of signs through numerology.
She transitioned on March 1st. So anytime I say a number 31
where we hear particular song orsongs on the radio that reminded
us of the music we enjoy together, I, I sense her
presence and I, I don't consciously ask for signs
anymore, Rob. I just know it's going to come
because our relationship is so strong.
(18:31):
What I learned about the survival of consciousness is
that love, love, love is transcendent.
Love can exist on any dimension.And I think you know, in my
conversations with Patty, one ofthe things that I've learned
through our conversations is that Janine's transition and
Janine and spirit needed to showme that love is eternal.
(18:53):
Love is going to exist no matterwhat dimension of the world that
our our loved ones are on that if we are open to, to, to, to
connecting through love and through, you know, for open to
open to that love connection that our loved ones are always
going to be with us. I, I've taken also the best
(19:13):
parts of who my daughter is and I've integrated them into my own
self. I tell my students, if you see a
lot of young energy coming out, it's probably my daughter's
influence because and so that keeps me young.
It keeps me energized and it keeps me engaged.
And, you know, it just helps me find peace, you know, amongst,
(19:35):
you know, and, and it's the worst tragedy of my life.
So, and I just realized now thatI can, I can, I can coexist that
love, sadness, sometimes occasional periods of yearning
can coexist and you know, to make us into very genuine,
compassionate human beings. Yeah.
(19:56):
Would would you say that it has increased your capacity for
compassion this this experience?You know, I always thought it
was a compassionate type of an individual, but yeah, more so
it's kind of almost like an advanced sympathy.
I think in a lot of ways, whenever I read about a parent
that I don't even know experiencing A traumatic loss,
it's like, yeah, I'm right therebecause I've been there.
(20:17):
Regardless of cause of death. I, you know, I can bond around
the pain and really the unnaturalness of having to bury
one of your children because oneof the things that I never
thought I'd, I never bargained for in this lifetime where I was
a bury one of my children. I, my children were supposed to
bury me and carry my legacy. They're not the other way
around. So, so, yeah, you know, that's,
(20:39):
that's, you know, that's, you know, kind of some other things
that that has taught me and other things that I have
learned. And the other thing that I have
learned is that we don't have toabandon our core beliefs to make
room for additional ones. We we can make room for
additional beliefs that can meshwith our core belief system, but
we don't have to substitute new beliefs for our old beliefs.
(21:05):
So I've learned about belief expansion as well.
Great. Point I, I recently heard, I
think it was forced Frank, the, the, the Christian music artist
he was talking about, you know, the thing that really tugs at
your heartstring, the thing thatbreaks your heart, like pay
attention to that thing 'cause if you put, you could, you can
(21:26):
put a lot of your energy into that thing in a, in a negative
way that tears you down or in a positive way that builds you up
right? And, and that's kind of where
you should put your focus and attention is on the thing that,
you know, somebody brings it up.It like it breaks your heart to,
to hear about that thing or to, even to, to think about it or
(21:47):
try to talk about it. It's like, man, it brings up so
many emotions. There's a special place there
where you can make a huge difference in the world, right?
Because of, and it might be something that happened to you.
It might just be, I don't know why this thing hits me so, so
hard, but it does. Do you feel like, well, I guess
my question is before Janine's passing and after, how did your,
(22:10):
the conversations that you had, your career approach and your
your outlook at the world changebefore and after?
Well, that's a really good question.
I think before, I think I took alot of things for granted.
You know, I had this very linearreview of how my life was going
to go. I figured I was going to get
married, have raised wonderful kids.
(22:32):
They were going to get married to give me grandchildren, great
grandchildren. I was going to.
I had a career that I enjoyed. I figured after my career, I
retire, settled down and then the universe said, no, this is
this is your plan is not does not align with our plan.
And they threw one of you know, they threw in an immense
(22:52):
challenge my way with the transition of my daughter.
So you know, what I've learned is that I mean, for me is that,
you know, so I took a lot of things for granted.
Now I don't, I wake up every dayand I thank the good Lord for
being me, being able to sit up and take nourishment, being able
to do what I love doing every day and do it, you know, at a,
(23:15):
at a, at a high quality level. And I am thankful for everything
that I have around me now. So I don't take anything for
granted. And Laurie Schwartz and the,
the, the Mitch albums book Tuesdays with Maurie about the
last six months or so. Last year of Maurie Schwartz's
life, Maura Schwartz talked. I think it was, it made.
This may be a Buddhist prophecy or Buddhist teaching that what
(23:39):
if you woke up and there's a little bird on your shoulder
saying that today was going to be the last day of your life?
How would you choose to live it?So what I do now is I, I, I
live, I look every, I wake up every day, picture that bird on
my shoulder whispering in my ear, this is the last day of
your life. What type of legacy do you want
to live? So now I live each day with a
(23:59):
sense of urgency, thinking that may be my last night that I
never lived that way before. I lived as if, well, you know, I
got all kinds of time. But then when you think you have
time, then there is no time. So, you know, and so that,
that's one of the things that has changed with my teaching.
I've become more compassionate. I, I think more, I become more
(24:19):
aware of my students having multiple categories in their
lives, including family tragedies and trauma and, and I
and my death, dying and bereavement class are I'm very
open with my history, especiallywith my daughter's transition.
So that, that, that if they're having some issues with, you
know, either a family that theirillness, they know that if they
can come, we can talk. So it's, I think made me more
(24:43):
well-rounded, made me more awareof the multiple categories of
individuals lives that can impact what they're doing at any
particular time. And when I was working as an
addictions counselor and clinical supervisor, I think
that also impressed upon me the importance of the humanitarian
approach to supervision more so than anything.
(25:05):
It isn't just about performed meeting performance objectives.
It's also about what's going on in that person's life that's
impacting that. And what can I do from a
humanitarian perspective that can allow me to make them more
effective, you know, colleagues and, you know, direct press
service providers in the workplace.
So all of that, all of her, her death is.
(25:27):
And personally, it's just like, you know, I, I, I don't take any
family moments for granted anymore.
Everything is just like it's. I live that as if it could be
the last moment that I will see see my loved ones as well too,
in terms of living every day with kind of a sense of urgency
and a sense of wanting to make amark in all areas of my life.
(25:49):
That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that,
Dave. But I think that that's
something we all can. I mean, I, I pray for, I pray
everybody can have a sense of urgency in their life.
And I mean, unfortunately, it seems like sometimes or a lot of
the times that has to come from some sort of pain or tragedy,
right? But I, I believe that the major
pain brings major breakthrough in your life.
(26:13):
It seems to be the process, not that's the macro and the micro
like it's like everything's likethat, you know, from, from
working out, breaking down your muscles makes them build back
stronger. So we, we have things that break
us down in life. I love the expression rejoice in
the breakdown because the breakthrough is coming right,
Because the bigger the breakdownyou're having you, you, you stay
(26:35):
true and, and hold tight and that a huge breakthrough is on
its way. So I, I, I definitely agree with
that. OK, we gotta pause real quick to
shout out the sponsor of the show.
I'm curious. You said a few minutes ago that
love can exist on any dimension and I, I want to just dive into
(26:55):
that. I'm just curious what your
thoughts are on that. Why do you think that love can't
exist on any dimension? What does that mean?
That might be a super deep question.
I'm just curious on your answer to that.
And we'll keep rocking and rolling here in one minute when
we come back. Are you struggling to make
consistent, valuable content foryourself?
Do you want to have an efficientand effective way to create
(27:15):
content that attracts the peoplethat you want to connect with in
life? The people.
You want to build relationships with in business.
Do you want to be the go to authority at what you do?
At what you're great at. Would it be helpful for you if
you had a platform that connectsyou to incredible people in your
industry? The kind of platform that gets
you leads and lands you clients without you having to beat down
anybody's door or blow up anybody's inbox?
(27:38):
Whether you're already creating content or you're desiring to
start, and it's something that'sbeen kind of burning inside of
you for a while, I urge you and encourage you to check out the
Pro Podcaster Academy. Get started right now.
Join the wait list at robzwentz.com.
Hi, my name is Jose Escobar and I'm the founder and CEO of the
Connected Leaders Academy. We're a growing tribe, a
(28:01):
community of entrepreneurs all over the world, globally.
If you're an entrepreneur and you're looking to grow
personally and professionally, scale your influence, develop
your skill sets, move the needlein your business, more clients,
more money, more profit. The bottom line and of course,
grow your circle and your network like never before Join
the connected leaders Academy today.
(28:22):
Check me out on Instagram and onFacebook The at symbol Jasco 25.
We look forward to having you join us.
Take care. Dave, really enjoying this
conversation. Why do you think it is that that
love can exist on on any dimension?
I find it very interesting when you said that.
So I just wanted to kind of diveinto your thoughts on that.
(28:44):
Well, there, there's two things.Rob 1 is that we're born with
love. We weren't born miserable.
You know, we were born out of pure love and light, whatever,
you know, whatever. I guess the lack of love or, or
you know, the ability not to love or to love unconditionally
is because of, you know, what we've experienced in the human
(29:05):
experience, you know, conflicts in relationships, conflicts with
families, shattered dreams, all of that.
The tracks from our ability to love.
We were born with that. And it's like I remember reading
in one of my one of my favorite books on the afterlife, the
afterlife of Billy Fingers. Is that why do you have to, I'm
paraphrasing this. Why do you have to earn love
(29:26):
when it's something you were born with already?
You know, we were born with thatin other dimensions.
And I've read other accounts of of near death experiences of
individuals who have actually died, have left their bodies and
had their spirits have gone intoanother dimension, which is the
afterlife where they're met by adeceased relative, a wise
spiritual guide. And they're told generally that,
(29:48):
look, you're going to, you're going to learn a lot here, but
we're going to put you back intoyour body because your mission
isn't over on earth. And essentially the message is
we want you to take what you've learned here and apply it for
the betterment of mankind and humankind.
And everybody that's had the account of going to near death
experiences, many of them want to come back because they what
(30:11):
they've encountered is true love, light bliss.
You know, the you know, 2 if your parents got divorced in the
afterlife there they see their souls, they those that human
contract is a thing of the past.There's no anger, there's no
remorse. There's no not remorse, but
there's no anger. There's no why did it get even?
(30:32):
There's no vindictiveness. It's basically all about love
and light because we see each other's souls.
And every time I get a sign frommy daughter or from any of my
other ancestors who have have have predeceased her, I look at
that as a sign of I'm here. I love you.
My love and my light is never going to go away.
(30:53):
It's always going to be here. All you need to do is look for
it. So I think we can, we can
experience love, we experience love here.
We're born with love, and in theafterlife we're reborn with
love. Yeah, the reason I ask that,
it's something I've been really thinking about meditating on a
lot lately. It's like because the
(31:15):
expression, you know, God is love.
It's in the it's in the Bible. We've heard of the million times
and I'm always like, why is God love?
Well, it's impossible to create anything out of anything but
love, right? You can't create something out
of death or hatred. I mean, you can, but it's gonna
be horrible and it's gonna fall apart.
It's not gonna work, right? You can try your best, but it's
not gonna, it's not gonna prosper.
(31:35):
There's not gonna be good fruit coming out of that.
And so I think like, yeah. And then I've, I've read
hundreds and listen to hundreds of near death experiences,
right. And that's a that's a very
common theme is like you pop outof your body and you are in
bliss. You're like, holy cow.
You know, I remember what was his name?
Ramdas famous. I think maybe like a Buddhist
(31:57):
teacher said death is like taking off a tight shoe, which I
always thought was a really funny expression because it's
like, take off a tight shoe. You're like, oh, thank God,
finally out of this thing. And then, yeah.
And then a lot of those, you know, that experiences are like,
oh, you got to go back. Sorry, you got, I mean, like, I
don't want to go back. And then sometimes they have
choices. Like you have a choice.
You can either stay or you can go back.
(32:18):
And very interesting. But I, I think about that a lot.
And it makes sense to me why love has to be.
Why? Why God is love but the creator
is love. Because it'd be impossible to
create anything good out of anything but lovingness.
So I was just curious your thoughts on that.
How do we honor loved ones without holding on to the pain
(32:42):
that comes along with it? Because I, I've thank God not
yet have experienced major loss in my life.
I know we all will at some pointin time, and I guess kind of
like mentally preparing myself for maybe spiritually,
emotionally preparing myself forit.
How do we do that? How do we honor the loved ones
who passed away without holding on to the immense pain that can
(33:03):
come along with that? Yeah, it's basically for me.
I mean, I could start out, you know, just very simply, you
know, you'll, you do things thathonor them, like light a candle,
eat their favorite food during aholiday ceremony, make a
donation in their name, And thenit can basically become a little
bit more advanced where you know, you can.
(33:25):
And I, and I have this activity called pieces of me, which I
I've done at workshops before where I ask individuals to pick
out the characteristics, positive characteristics or come
up with their own that that represent their transitions or
deceased the past on loved one. However they they could conceive
that and ask them, one, how can they make those characteristics
(33:50):
a part of themselves to move through grief?
That's that's kind of more of a grief integration, which is a
lot of a lot of what the grief teachers and coaches are talking
about is integrating our grief. So it's integrating those
qualities. How do we move forward with
those qualities of our loved ones, move through grief with
those qualities so that we're wehave we're we're finding peace
(34:13):
and acceptance, and we're also making a difference in the lives
of our loved ones. You can also do specific things.
I've done this where I burnt incense.
I've I shuffled the favorite playlist of of my daughters, I
did a brief meditative prayer and just asked her to to be a
part of to be a part of that moment with me.
(34:35):
And interestingly enough, I've had times where you know that
when I've done that, I have. I did.
The one in particular, I think it was on her 8th Angel, 8th
Angel versary date of her transition, where actually 2
songs came back, came back-to-back.
They were played randomly, whichrepresented the first concert we
(34:56):
ever went to. Those are by those two artists
which told me that she was present.
The other thing that I did, and this was liberating.
I also believe that we also needto liberate the spirits of our
loved ones. I, I came to this conclusion
about three years later. You know how Rob, how in life we
give our kids permission to growoutside of the hall to find
(35:17):
their own experiences. One of the things I and I talked
to Patty about this, you know, one of the things I haven't done
is give my daughter permission to grow outside of our, our bond
that we continue to share and that I share with her in spirit.
So I did another activity, another banning activity where I
just I said, look, I know you'realways going to be with me.
(35:37):
I know you're going to be here. I know you're going to be here
when I need you or just when youyou want to connect.
But I give you permission to grow out your spirit, to grow
outside of our relationship and just do some the world to people
who need it. That symbolically to me was was
very liberating for me to be able to do that.
It was something that, you know,I, I, there was something that
(36:02):
I, I, I probably did that with her in life just through, by
allowing her to explore her own experience.
But I never did that to her in the afterlife.
So I decided this was, I was going to do that as well too.
And I think for me, it was a very liberating experience and
it was something that I also needed to do.
So all of that I think, and thisis basically how I continue to
(36:25):
honor her through to continue bond through doing things in her
memory. You know, some, there were days
I also she was just like Cucumbermelon, you know, that
was one of her favorite fragrances.
When she had a Cucumbermelon perfume, I would dab it on my
neck because I want to find to feel, you know, close to her.
So those are the things that I kind of do to continue to honor
(36:46):
her, to continue to stay connected to her and to move
forward in grief. And it isn't about forgetting
our loved ones. It's about continuing to
remember them, continuing to honor them and moving through
with them in our grief. And we become not only with my
daughter, but with my other ancestors who have pre deceased
her. They have become partners with
(37:08):
me in the in the the meaningful work that I do moving forward.
It's really good. Thanks for sharing that.
I think that's really it's really important.
I think that I'm, I'm trying to,as you're talking, I'm thinking
of a particular family member who in my life, they lost one of
their children at a young age. And from what I can tell, he
(37:33):
never, he never let himself feelit or accept it.
Right. So it's like anything that would
bring up this is my own perception just because I can
tell that he's he's always kind of stayed stuck in that place.
Anything that would like remind him of his child who passed
(37:56):
away, he would kind of like run away from, he wouldn't embrace
those things. He would avoid them because it
was too painful. And he, I mean, I, I can't even
imagine and I, I don't even wantto pretend like I would even
know what I would be like because I'd be a mess for a
long, long time. So I understand.
But I also hearing what you're saying is like embracing those
(38:19):
things they love the things thatremind you of them, albeit
they're painful. Embrace them and and enjoy them
and see that as that spiritual connection.
It's still there with them. Yeah, that was never the
relationship I envisioned havingwith any of my kids.
But this is the relationship nowthat I need to, you know, to
(38:40):
have and to be at peace with because, you know, I'm all the
yearning in the world is not going to, you know, bring her
back. So basically, I know that I, I
am firmly convinced. I know where she is and I
believe that we will see each other again.
It's going to be a glorious reunion once we do.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I, I, I always think of the book
(39:04):
Heaven is for Real. Colton Burpo, this little kid,
who have you read that book? I've read it and I saw the
movie. His story, that story that got
me that that's such a such a powerful story.
And like, because he talks abouthis, his his mom had had a
miscarriage, right? And he met his unborn brother in
(39:27):
in heaven, right? And it's just like I'm getting
chills talking about it. It's just like, wow, that's,
that's incredible that, that is that, that's reality.
That's real. And embracing that reality is
just it, it brings a sense of peace to me at least.
I don't know about you. It would bring a sense of peace
to me and also convinced me moreand more in the survival of
consciousness because I only theother part of that story is her,
(39:49):
their parents parents, I think her, I think their, her father
was a was his father's a minister too, I believe.
And I think they were both Christian and they didn't
believe in really any of the, you know, afterlife, not the
afterlife stuff, but connection,you know, with our our loved 1
spirit. I think that wasn't in their in
their belief system. But once he said, you know, I
(40:10):
met. I met my brother.
I I met my brother who was was ever actually born.
He told me he he died before he was born.
I mean, if there's a mic, the mother would have dropped it
because she never told him that.And so that that to me, even the
most skeptical individual would have to really, I think, look
into the possibilities. Is there life after death and
(40:32):
does our conscience to survive? And will we see our loved ones
again? I mean, that stuff would be, if
I was still a skeptic about that, that would get me thinking
and get me Explorer. 100% man, this has been so good, Dave.
We could talk forever. I love this conversation.
We have to wrap it up though. I want to thank you for your
time before we sign off, I want to encourage people to to check
(40:54):
out what you're doing. So I want to plug you and
yourself. So your website,
davidrobertsmsw.com. The link also is in the the show
notes, but anything you want to drive people towards, anything
you want to plug before we wrap this thing up?
Yeah, One last thing I want to Iwant to plug is if anybody is
interested in learning more about the spiritually
(41:16):
transformative experience that Ihad with Reverend Patty Farino,
a sampling of our conversations about psychology and
spirituality and the importance of critical thinking for the
present and future generations, I would encourage them to check
out our book on Amazon. It's when the psychology
professor with the minister, thesubtitle being How the woman on
(41:37):
the corner of Hunter and Whittier permanently transformed
1 academics worldview. And that'll give everybody that
we left nothing unsaid in this book.
Everything about my story, my including how the work, what I
did with Janine promoted and really motivated me to do
ancestral healing with my father's decision to leave when
(41:58):
I was young and my mother's decision to overprotect me after
he left. All of that is in there.
And it hopefully for those who decide to purchase it, they'll,
they'll, they'll get a perspective that'll at least get
them thinking. And that's what we want us to
get individuals thinking, you know, and thinking about how can
I expand my core belief systems?What can I do with the
(42:20):
information that's been presented?
Amazing. Well, thank you, Sir.
David robertsmsw.com. Make sure you go there right
now, find out everything about Dave and and pick up that book
for yourself. It's on Amazon.
Thank you, Sir, for your time. I appreciate having you here.
Any parting words? Be gentle with yourself and be
open to what is the the magic ofthe universe.
(42:44):
And there are some things that science can't explain, but
they're real anyway. So Justin, revel in it,
celebrated and being awe of it. Amen.
All right. This has been another true
testimony of breakthrough. Until next time, this is the
unstuck movement.
Welcome back to the Unstuck movement.
Today we are with Dave Roberts on the show talking about the
bridge between psychology and spirit.
I'm really excited to have Dave on today for this conversation.
So just to give you an idea of, of what we're going to talk
about today, we're going to cover spiritual transformation,
life after loss, consciousness and healing, forgiveness and,
(00:47):
and how do we really forgive and, and move forward and grief
and growth. A light hearted episode, right?
Some, some very important topicsto cover.
Dave is a bereaved father, author and professor who turned
his daughter's passing into a powerful mission to help others
heal. His insights blend psychology,
spirituality, and lived experience to guide people
(01:08):
through grief toward peace and renewed purpose.
And Dave, I love to jump in witha question up front.
And, you know, grief is something and grieving is
something that some people neverget through and that it goes on
for the, for the rest of their life and that they don't go
through that grieving process. And it can really torment
people. And I, I know people in my own
personal life that have experienced that and still seem
(01:30):
to be tormented by that process.How can grief become a teacher
rather than a tormentor? Well, first of all, Rob, thank
you for having me on the UnstuckMovement podcast.
I've been looking forward to ourconversation for, for a while
now. So thank you for creating space
for me to share what I've learned about grief with your
(01:51):
audience. But I think the first, the first
requirement for allowing grief to be your teacher is first is
to be open to that. Because typically, as you
mentioned, we're talking about alot of different topics related
to death that many individuals in Western society see as taboo
topics to talk about. They have a very difficult time.
(02:12):
So the first thing is to be ableto reframe and see, see that
even the worst moments in our grief can, can teach us.
For me, grief was a teacher. For me, and this is going up,
I'm going to kind of break this up into early, middle and
perhaps the later phase of grief.
First of all, just as familiarize your audience.
(02:33):
I'm no, I'm no stranger to griefs, no stranger to loss.
I've experienced a dance with death since I've been five years
old. The the loss that really threw
me headlong into the field of dantology or death and dying and
and as a result of the challengewith with that loss helped me
commit to a life of service was the death and I call now the
(02:56):
transition of my daughter Janineto a new existence.
She was 18 years old and when she transitioned on March 1st,
2003 of a very rare form of connective muscle tissue sarcoma
and she transitioned 10 months after giving birth to her first
and only child. So that's the, that's the
(03:16):
framework for which all of this,all of our, the following, you
know, questions and discussion are going to come from.
But for me and really grief, I, I needed to, to allow the, allow
the, the emotions, the, the disconnectedness, the questions,
(03:37):
the what ifs, I needed to, I needed to go through that in
order to first, first of all, embrace that early phase of
grief, but secondly, also to begin to set the framework to
move through grief. All of that stuff was required.
The what ifs, sitting with, you know, my, my darkest moments,
not trying to run away from that, finding moments of joy
(04:00):
within the sadness. All of that taught me that that
we could one, survive even our worst moments.
But secondly, that life isn't all about happiness.
It's about embracing those moments that aren't happy.
And it's about learning from those moments that aren't happy
because that is the key to genuineness.
The the other thing that I allowed grief to, to be a
(04:21):
teacher for me, and this progressed from early to to, I'd
say middle was allowing myself to be open to support from
support groups that that resonated with me, that has
contained parents that also experienced the death of a
child. To be open to talking to other
individuals who were 567 years ahead of, ahead of me in my
(04:44):
journey to see what they did to get there to, to, to read
anything I could get my hands onthat would help me normalize the
grief process and give me some additional tools to work
through. And finally making a decision to
begin to gradually re engage in life and try to, to, to take a
(05:05):
look at the challenges that I had as a result of my, my
daughter's transition and ask myself, what can I do to be of
service to others? Whether it's through my, my
teaching at Utica University, through bereavement support, how
can I turn what had happened to me into some meaningful moments?
And also leaving a legacy in honor of my daughter and with my
(05:26):
daughter in service to others. The final part of this
transformation for me was being open to perspectives that
normally I would not have been open to because of my psychology
and science based belief system.Your pure serendipity.
I met an interfaith minister by the name of Reverend Patty for
(05:46):
Reno. And it also take Rob another
hour to even set up how we even met.
But it was if I kind of qualifies into you, you know, I,
I couldn't make this stuff up. OK, that's what that qualify it
is. But your pure serendipity.
I found myself at her home in Long Island during the weekend
(06:09):
of November 11th, 2010, seven years after my daughter
transitioned, and she facilitated A spiritually
transformative experience that convinced me that not only was
my my daughter's spirit still alive, but that I could learn to
transform the relationship with her so I could create that
continued bond. It also began to plant the seeds
(06:33):
for me, understanding that the survival of consciousness is
real. Could you, could you go a little
bit more into that? I'm, I'm curious, that sounds
incredible and life changing. What was it about, about her?
What was it that, that led you to like have this, this trust in
(06:56):
her? And what, what was that?
What was that experience? What were the the components of
that experience? Well, I think Rob, the trust was
initially built when we first connected over a phone call.
I was in charge of, I was not incharge when I was on the
committee for, for conference planning for a grief conference
that we have going on here in upstate New York.
(07:19):
All registration was done online.
But before she could submit her choices and her billing
information, her computer blacked out.
And we kind of figured that was divine intervention or, or
intervention from a spiritual force in the universe to get us
together. Because had her computer not
not, you know, blacked out, she would have never had to call me
(07:40):
to register over the phone. So we, we talked for about 45
minutes. At the time, she was a volunteer
minister for the Angel of Hope in Long Island.
The Angel of Hope is a statue that's erected so that parents
who have experienced the death of a child can honor their
children at that statue. You know, I told her about
(08:03):
Janine. She told me about a couple of
significant children and death had crossed her path, that she
had developed a connection with that, that their, her, their
deaths moved her, you know, emotionally and, and, and
otherwise. So that's, and we just, we just
made a pact to meet at the conference.
(08:24):
And then when she she we exchanged a hug at the
conference, she whispered in my ear, she said, I think your
daughter sent me a rainbow. Now I'm going to backtrack when
during our conversation, Patty said, do you believe in signs?
And I said, you know, Patty, I've never really gone for that
stuff. I'm science based.
I believe that behavior can onlyunder be under be stood through
(08:48):
our own rational senses. But I said, I think my daughter
did send me a rainbow. Father's Day 2009.
It was a double rainbow and my wife had called me because I was
on my computer doing something called Dave.
Dave, you got to got to see this.
I think your, I think your daughter sent you a rainbow.
There's a big double rainbow in this guy and there's no rain,
(09:10):
nothing. It just appeared and there were
other things that were happeningthat got me to question, you
know, is this science? Is this like, is this some other
type of phenomena that's going on?
I thought there might have been something more even before I met
Patty, but I couldn't reconcile it.
I was maybe afraid to reconcile it, unwilling to reconcile it
(09:32):
with my core beliefs. So.
And as it turns out that a couple of weeks before the
conference, Patty herself saw a double rainbow.
OK. And, and they were so her and
her husband Merkel were so takenby it.
This was a double rainbow acrossRoute 17 in New Jersey.
(09:52):
And there was not a sky. There's not a cloud in the sky,
very similar to my experience. And so they were videotaping it,
taking pictures of it. And all of a sudden she's
sitting on top of her car and she hears a voice in her head
saying, I need you to talk to myfather.
And so she she attended to the voice and said, well, I, I'd be
be happy to. But who is your father?
(10:14):
There's a guy you talked to about the conference.
I did not know this until probably well after the fact.
I didn't know this at all. OK, In the meantime, we're going
to Fast forward to the conference.
And I know I'm jumping all around, but I'm going to try to
make this as condensed as possible.
I'm taking three of our podcastsor three of our, excuse me, our
(10:35):
conference presenters up to the Adirondacks to see the change of
change of leaves in, in the, in scenery in the fall.
And they're having this intense conversation about spirituality.
And I looked up at the sky, saidto no one in particular, I think
it was God or my higher power. I want to be where they are.
And all I wanted was to maybe have more knowledge of
spirituality to get me to that next step.
(10:58):
At the time, my soul, I realizednow my soul is crying for
something that my head couldn't wrap wrap around.
I wanted more of a of a spiritual perspective.
So when I got to Patty's and sheand I had the spiritually
transformative experience, the first thing that happened is
that we're sitting in her livingroom after a workshop that we
(11:20):
attended through a mutual college.
This is at 9:30 at night. She gets out, she assumes the
cross leg position, much like the like a young person would do
and much like my daughter used to do.
And she looked at me and she goes, why don't you listen to
music anymore? That was not her talk.
And that was my daughter talking.
OK. And this whole weekend went like
(11:40):
this. I didn't question a thing, Rob,
because I look back on it. I didn't question it because I
asked for this intention. I, my intention was I wanted
something more. And I not only did I get more
understanding of spirituality, Igot a whole new perspective, not
only from that weekend, but in the subsequent conversations
(12:00):
that we've had over, you know, the, over a 10 year period and
beyond. It's 15 years now into our
relationship, our friendship andwhere we talked about how
psychology and spirituality can integrate to help individuals
transcend challenge, understand their place in the universe,
enhance their relationship with themselves and eventually find
(12:23):
peace with an acceptance with their life being the way it is.
Regardless of the candid cars that were that were dealt in
them. So I got all of this and it
started with the blacked out computer, my intention to the
universe that I wanted somethingmore and and perhaps the most
powerfully spiritual transformative experience I've
(12:45):
ever had in my life. Thank you for sharing that.
I, I'm, I'm curious, you know, I've had many spiritual
experiences myself and some of them have really stuck with me.
I'm curious for yourself and foranybody who's ever, you know,
had a spiritual experience, how do you hold on to, to something
(13:07):
like that and carry it into yourlife?
Right, 'cause I know it can havea profound effect, but how have
you like kind of applied it to your life moving forward?
You said that had him back in what, 2010?
So you know well the fifteen well. 15 years ago, so you're
still still talking about it, It's still had it such a
profound impact. How do you how do you apply it
(13:28):
to your life from then to now? Well, but I, I apply it
particularly in I'll go go one aspect of my life, one probably
one at a time, but by students, OK, I teach death, dying and
bereavement, care of the human spirit at Utica University in
(13:49):
Utica, NY, among other courses. But those two courses pretty
much informed my philosophy. So, you know, we talked about
the spiritual aspects of death. We talked about how holistic
practices and care of the human spirit, like yoga, like
meditation, you know, near we also talked about near death
experiences in both of those classes, how they can shape our
(14:09):
understanding of the world, improve our physical and mental
health, and, you know, just allow us to broaden our
perspective. So for me, that integrative
philosophy drives what I do withteaching.
Now I need to make one thing clear to you and to your to your
audience, Rob, is that just because I have just because I
(14:32):
believe the way I believe and I'm passionate about what I
believe, doesn't mean everybody has to believe the way I
believe. And I tell individuals that I
throw this out there to plant seeds to, to get you to think
about different perspectives andfind your truth within those
perspectives. So I basically just put that out
(14:53):
there for consideration. And if individuals don't find
any truth in what I've said, then they have at least come to
a decision. I tell them that you don't have
to believe how I believe, but I want you to open yourself up to
the possibilities that if we broaden our perspective, we may
not look at life, death or life after death the same.
And so I and I try to prepare mystudents for anything that that
(15:15):
they could come across in working with individuals with
death and dying, and that includes the spiritual aspects.
I love that because real, real quick, I think it's so important
just to know we can't, you can'tforce anything on anybody and
you can't change anybody. But you can plant seeds, like
you said, and that's what you'resupposed to do, right?
(15:35):
If you've had something that transformed you, that had such a
profound impact on you, it is your duty to plant those seeds
because you don't know how. You don't know who's gonna water
the seeds. You don't know who's gonna
harvest the plant. You don't know how that's all
gonna happen. It doesn't matter, right?
Just know that you're you're supposed to plant those seeds.
So I love that. It's such a core concept because
(15:57):
sometimes we can get caught up in, well, why even say anything?
It's not going to make a difference.
Or it can be I have to force this on this person and make
them believe what I'm saying. And those things are irrational
and impossible to do, so just plant the seeds.
Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, and if we can
do that, we establish ourselves as listeners.
And this is what this this experience has also helped me to
(16:19):
do. I've always thought I'd been a
good listener, but I become a better listener.
And once you establish yourself as a non judgmental listener,
where let's say you and I have adifferent philosophy in terms of
what spirituality looks like, well, we can still coexist
because there's many different ways to carve a spiritual path.
There's so many spiritual holistic practices and religions
(16:43):
and cultures. But I can sit and try to
understand how you came to your perception.
So your perspective, you can askme the same question.
And not only are we creating space to embrace difference, but
we're also creating space to listen for similarity.
And if we can do that with each other, I think I, I think we
(17:04):
can, we can see more similarity than we can difference.
And the, the, the thing that I've run into and I've seen this
is like somebody saying, well, my way to grieve is better than
your way to grieve. Well, no, I, I mean, we, we
grieve in a way that makes sensefor us.
It's what can we learn from eachother's respective styles that
we can incorporate into our existing belief systems that can
(17:26):
help us expand our perspective and expand our knowledge and
create greater awareness of ourselves and our relationship
to the world around us and make us better companions to
individuals who are going through challenge.
So how did Janine's passing reshape your understanding of
consciousness? Right.
So you, you had this experience with the rainbow, the double
(17:48):
rainbow, and so did the, the woman that you were speaking
about had this experience with the double rainbow.
And what was what was Janine's, I guess her, her message?
What did you interpret her message was to you, and how has
it changed your perception of consciousness?
Well, I think the message that Iget and I still get, you know,
(18:09):
signs from Janine, I get a lot of signs through numerology.
She transitioned on March 1st. So anytime I say a number 31
where we hear particular song orsongs on the radio that reminded
us of the music we enjoy together, I, I sense her
presence and I, I don't consciously ask for signs
anymore, Rob. I just know it's going to come
because our relationship is so strong.
(18:31):
What I learned about the survival of consciousness is
that love, love, love is transcendent.
Love can exist on any dimension.And I think you know, in my
conversations with Patty, one ofthe things that I've learned
through our conversations is that Janine's transition and
Janine and spirit needed to showme that love is eternal.
(18:53):
Love is going to exist no matterwhat dimension of the world that
our our loved ones are on that if we are open to, to, to, to
connecting through love and through, you know, for open to
open to that love connection that our loved ones are always
going to be with us. I, I've taken also the best
(19:13):
parts of who my daughter is and I've integrated them into my own
self. I tell my students, if you see a
lot of young energy coming out, it's probably my daughter's
influence because and so that keeps me young.
It keeps me energized and it keeps me engaged.
And, you know, it just helps me find peace, you know, amongst,
(19:35):
you know, and, and it's the worst tragedy of my life.
So, and I just realized now thatI can, I can, I can coexist that
love, sadness, sometimes occasional periods of yearning
can coexist and you know, to make us into very genuine,
compassionate human beings. Yeah.
(19:56):
Would would you say that it has increased your capacity for
compassion this this experience?You know, I always thought it
was a compassionate type of an individual, but yeah, more so
it's kind of almost like an advanced sympathy.
I think in a lot of ways, whenever I read about a parent
that I don't even know experiencing A traumatic loss,
it's like, yeah, I'm right therebecause I've been there.
(20:17):
Regardless of cause of death. I, you know, I can bond around
the pain and really the unnaturalness of having to bury
one of your children because oneof the things that I never
thought I'd, I never bargained for in this lifetime where I was
a bury one of my children. I, my children were supposed to
bury me and carry my legacy. They're not the other way
around. So, so, yeah, you know, that's,
(20:39):
that's, you know, that's, you know, kind of some other things
that that has taught me and other things that I have
learned. And the other thing that I have
learned is that we don't have toabandon our core beliefs to make
room for additional ones. We we can make room for
additional beliefs that can meshwith our core belief system, but
we don't have to substitute new beliefs for our old beliefs.
(21:05):
So I've learned about belief expansion as well.
Great. Point I, I recently heard, I
think it was forced Frank, the, the, the Christian music artist
he was talking about, you know, the thing that really tugs at
your heartstring, the thing thatbreaks your heart, like pay
attention to that thing 'cause if you put, you could, you can
(21:26):
put a lot of your energy into that thing in a, in a negative
way that tears you down or in a positive way that builds you up
right? And, and that's kind of where
you should put your focus and attention is on the thing that,
you know, somebody brings it up.It like it breaks your heart to,
to hear about that thing or to, even to, to think about it or
(21:47):
try to talk about it. It's like, man, it brings up so
many emotions. There's a special place there
where you can make a huge difference in the world, right?
Because of, and it might be something that happened to you.
It might just be, I don't know why this thing hits me so, so
hard, but it does. Do you feel like, well, I guess
my question is before Janine's passing and after, how did your,
(22:10):
the conversations that you had, your career approach and your
your outlook at the world changebefore and after?
Well, that's a really good question.
I think before, I think I took alot of things for granted.
You know, I had this very linearreview of how my life was going
to go. I figured I was going to get
married, have raised wonderful kids.
(22:32):
They were going to get married to give me grandchildren, great
grandchildren. I was going to.
I had a career that I enjoyed. I figured after my career, I
retire, settled down and then the universe said, no, this is
this is your plan is not does not align with our plan.
And they threw one of you know, they threw in an immense
(22:52):
challenge my way with the transition of my daughter.
So you know, what I've learned is that I mean, for me is that,
you know, so I took a lot of things for granted.
Now I don't, I wake up every dayand I thank the good Lord for
being me, being able to sit up and take nourishment, being able
to do what I love doing every day and do it, you know, at a,
(23:15):
at a, at a high quality level. And I am thankful for everything
that I have around me now. So I don't take anything for
granted. And Laurie Schwartz and the,
the, the Mitch albums book Tuesdays with Maurie about the
last six months or so. Last year of Maurie Schwartz's
life, Maura Schwartz talked. I think it was, it made.
This may be a Buddhist prophecy or Buddhist teaching that what
(23:39):
if you woke up and there's a little bird on your shoulder
saying that today was going to be the last day of your life?
How would you choose to live it?So what I do now is I, I, I
live, I look every, I wake up every day, picture that bird on
my shoulder whispering in my ear, this is the last day of
your life. What type of legacy do you want
to live? So now I live each day with a
(23:59):
sense of urgency, thinking that may be my last night that I
never lived that way before. I lived as if, well, you know, I
got all kinds of time. But then when you think you have
time, then there is no time. So, you know, and so that,
that's one of the things that has changed with my teaching.
I've become more compassionate. I, I think more, I become more
(24:19):
aware of my students having multiple categories in their
lives, including family tragedies and trauma and, and I
and my death, dying and bereavement class are I'm very
open with my history, especiallywith my daughter's transition.
So that, that, that if they're having some issues with, you
know, either a family that theirillness, they know that if they
can come, we can talk. So it's, I think made me more
(24:43):
well-rounded, made me more awareof the multiple categories of
individuals lives that can impact what they're doing at any
particular time. And when I was working as an
addictions counselor and clinical supervisor, I think
that also impressed upon me the importance of the humanitarian
approach to supervision more so than anything.
(25:05):
It isn't just about performed meeting performance objectives.
It's also about what's going on in that person's life that's
impacting that. And what can I do from a
humanitarian perspective that can allow me to make them more
effective, you know, colleagues and, you know, direct press
service providers in the workplace.
So all of that, all of her, her death is.
(25:27):
And personally, it's just like, you know, I, I, I don't take any
family moments for granted anymore.
Everything is just like it's. I live that as if it could be
the last moment that I will see see my loved ones as well too,
in terms of living every day with kind of a sense of urgency
and a sense of wanting to make amark in all areas of my life.
(25:49):
That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that,
Dave. But I think that that's
something we all can. I mean, I, I pray for, I pray
everybody can have a sense of urgency in their life.
And I mean, unfortunately, it seems like sometimes or a lot of
the times that has to come from some sort of pain or tragedy,
right? But I, I believe that the major
pain brings major breakthrough in your life.
(26:13):
It seems to be the process, not that's the macro and the micro
like it's like everything's likethat, you know, from, from
working out, breaking down your muscles makes them build back
stronger. So we, we have things that break
us down in life. I love the expression rejoice in
the breakdown because the breakthrough is coming right,
Because the bigger the breakdownyou're having you, you, you stay
(26:35):
true and, and hold tight and that a huge breakthrough is on
its way. So I, I, I definitely agree with
that. OK, we gotta pause real quick to
shout out the sponsor of the show.
I'm curious. You said a few minutes ago that
love can exist on any dimension and I, I want to just dive into
(26:55):
that. I'm just curious what your
thoughts are on that. Why do you think that love can't
exist on any dimension? What does that mean?
That might be a super deep question.
I'm just curious on your answer to that.
And we'll keep rocking and rolling here in one minute when
we come back. Are you struggling to make
consistent, valuable content foryourself?
Do you want to have an efficientand effective way to create
(27:15):
content that attracts the peoplethat you want to connect with in
life? The people.
You want to build relationships with in business.
Do you want to be the go to authority at what you do?
At what you're great at. Would it be helpful for you if
you had a platform that connectsyou to incredible people in your
industry? The kind of platform that gets
you leads and lands you clients without you having to beat down
anybody's door or blow up anybody's inbox?
(27:38):
Whether you're already creating content or you're desiring to
start, and it's something that'sbeen kind of burning inside of
you for a while, I urge you and encourage you to check out the
Pro Podcaster Academy. Get started right now.
Join the wait list at robzwentz.com.
Hi, my name is Jose Escobar and I'm the founder and CEO of the
Connected Leaders Academy. We're a growing tribe, a
(28:01):
community of entrepreneurs all over the world, globally.
If you're an entrepreneur and you're looking to grow
personally and professionally, scale your influence, develop
your skill sets, move the needlein your business, more clients,
more money, more profit. The bottom line and of course,
grow your circle and your network like never before Join
the connected leaders Academy today.
(28:22):
Check me out on Instagram and onFacebook The at symbol Jasco 25.
We look forward to having you join us.
Take care. Dave, really enjoying this
conversation. Why do you think it is that that
love can exist on on any dimension?
I find it very interesting when you said that.
So I just wanted to kind of diveinto your thoughts on that.
(28:44):
Well, there, there's two things.Rob 1 is that we're born with
love. We weren't born miserable.
You know, we were born out of pure love and light, whatever,
you know, whatever. I guess the lack of love or, or
you know, the ability not to love or to love unconditionally
is because of, you know, what we've experienced in the human
(29:05):
experience, you know, conflicts in relationships, conflicts with
families, shattered dreams, all of that.
The tracks from our ability to love.
We were born with that. And it's like I remember reading
in one of my one of my favorite books on the afterlife, the
afterlife of Billy Fingers. Is that why do you have to, I'm
paraphrasing this. Why do you have to earn love
(29:26):
when it's something you were born with already?
You know, we were born with thatin other dimensions.
And I've read other accounts of of near death experiences of
individuals who have actually died, have left their bodies and
had their spirits have gone intoanother dimension, which is the
afterlife where they're met by adeceased relative, a wise
spiritual guide. And they're told generally that,
(29:48):
look, you're going to, you're going to learn a lot here, but
we're going to put you back intoyour body because your mission
isn't over on earth. And essentially the message is
we want you to take what you've learned here and apply it for
the betterment of mankind and humankind.
And everybody that's had the account of going to near death
experiences, many of them want to come back because they what
(30:11):
they've encountered is true love, light bliss.
You know, the you know, 2 if your parents got divorced in the
afterlife there they see their souls, they those that human
contract is a thing of the past.There's no anger, there's no
remorse. There's no not remorse, but
there's no anger. There's no why did it get even?
(30:32):
There's no vindictiveness. It's basically all about love
and light because we see each other's souls.
And every time I get a sign frommy daughter or from any of my
other ancestors who have have have predeceased her, I look at
that as a sign of I'm here. I love you.
My love and my light is never going to go away.
(30:53):
It's always going to be here. All you need to do is look for
it. So I think we can, we can
experience love, we experience love here.
We're born with love, and in theafterlife we're reborn with
love. Yeah, the reason I ask that,
it's something I've been really thinking about meditating on a
lot lately. It's like because the
(31:15):
expression, you know, God is love.
It's in the it's in the Bible. We've heard of the million times
and I'm always like, why is God love?
Well, it's impossible to create anything out of anything but
love, right? You can't create something out
of death or hatred. I mean, you can, but it's gonna
be horrible and it's gonna fall apart.
It's not gonna work, right? You can try your best, but it's
not gonna, it's not gonna prosper.
(31:35):
There's not gonna be good fruit coming out of that.
And so I think like, yeah. And then I've, I've read
hundreds and listen to hundreds of near death experiences,
right. And that's a that's a very
common theme is like you pop outof your body and you are in
bliss. You're like, holy cow.
You know, I remember what was his name?
Ramdas famous. I think maybe like a Buddhist
(31:57):
teacher said death is like taking off a tight shoe, which I
always thought was a really funny expression because it's
like, take off a tight shoe. You're like, oh, thank God,
finally out of this thing. And then, yeah.
And then a lot of those, you know, that experiences are like,
oh, you got to go back. Sorry, you got, I mean, like, I
don't want to go back. And then sometimes they have
choices. Like you have a choice.
You can either stay or you can go back.
(32:18):
And very interesting. But I, I think about that a lot.
And it makes sense to me why love has to be.
Why? Why God is love but the creator
is love. Because it'd be impossible to
create anything good out of anything but lovingness.
So I was just curious your thoughts on that.
How do we honor loved ones without holding on to the pain
(32:42):
that comes along with it? Because I, I've thank God not
yet have experienced major loss in my life.
I know we all will at some pointin time, and I guess kind of
like mentally preparing myself for maybe spiritually,
emotionally preparing myself forit.
How do we do that? How do we honor the loved ones
who passed away without holding on to the immense pain that can
(33:03):
come along with that? Yeah, it's basically for me.
I mean, I could start out, you know, just very simply, you
know, you'll, you do things thathonor them, like light a candle,
eat their favorite food during aholiday ceremony, make a
donation in their name, And thenit can basically become a little
bit more advanced where you know, you can.
(33:25):
And I, and I have this activity called pieces of me, which I
I've done at workshops before where I ask individuals to pick
out the characteristics, positive characteristics or come
up with their own that that represent their transitions or
deceased the past on loved one. However they they could conceive
that and ask them, one, how can they make those characteristics
(33:50):
a part of themselves to move through grief?
That's that's kind of more of a grief integration, which is a
lot of a lot of what the grief teachers and coaches are talking
about is integrating our grief. So it's integrating those
qualities. How do we move forward with
those qualities of our loved ones, move through grief with
those qualities so that we're wehave we're we're finding peace
(34:13):
and acceptance, and we're also making a difference in the lives
of our loved ones. You can also do specific things.
I've done this where I burnt incense.
I've I shuffled the favorite playlist of of my daughters, I
did a brief meditative prayer and just asked her to to be a
part of to be a part of that moment with me.
(34:35):
And interestingly enough, I've had times where you know that
when I've done that, I have. I did.
The one in particular, I think it was on her 8th Angel, 8th
Angel versary date of her transition, where actually 2
songs came back, came back-to-back.
They were played randomly, whichrepresented the first concert we
(34:56):
ever went to. Those are by those two artists
which told me that she was present.
The other thing that I did, and this was liberating.
I also believe that we also needto liberate the spirits of our
loved ones. I, I came to this conclusion
about three years later. You know how Rob, how in life we
give our kids permission to growoutside of the hall to find
(35:17):
their own experiences. One of the things I and I talked
to Patty about this, you know, one of the things I haven't done
is give my daughter permission to grow outside of our, our bond
that we continue to share and that I share with her in spirit.
So I did another activity, another banning activity where I
just I said, look, I know you'realways going to be with me.
(35:37):
I know you're going to be here. I know you're going to be here
when I need you or just when youyou want to connect.
But I give you permission to grow out your spirit, to grow
outside of our relationship and just do some the world to people
who need it. That symbolically to me was was
very liberating for me to be able to do that.
It was something that, you know,I, I, there was something that
(36:02):
I, I, I probably did that with her in life just through, by
allowing her to explore her own experience.
But I never did that to her in the afterlife.
So I decided this was, I was going to do that as well too.
And I think for me, it was a very liberating experience and
it was something that I also needed to do.
So all of that I think, and thisis basically how I continue to
(36:25):
honor her through to continue bond through doing things in her
memory. You know, some, there were days
I also she was just like Cucumbermelon, you know, that
was one of her favorite fragrances.
When she had a Cucumbermelon perfume, I would dab it on my
neck because I want to find to feel, you know, close to her.
So those are the things that I kind of do to continue to honor
(36:46):
her, to continue to stay connected to her and to move
forward in grief. And it isn't about forgetting
our loved ones. It's about continuing to
remember them, continuing to honor them and moving through
with them in our grief. And we become not only with my
daughter, but with my other ancestors who have pre deceased
her. They have become partners with
(37:08):
me in the in the the meaningful work that I do moving forward.
It's really good. Thanks for sharing that.
I think that's really it's really important.
I think that I'm, I'm trying to,as you're talking, I'm thinking
of a particular family member who in my life, they lost one of
their children at a young age. And from what I can tell, he
(37:33):
never, he never let himself feelit or accept it.
Right. So it's like anything that would
bring up this is my own perception just because I can
tell that he's he's always kind of stayed stuck in that place.
Anything that would like remind him of his child who passed
(37:56):
away, he would kind of like run away from, he wouldn't embrace
those things. He would avoid them because it
was too painful. And he, I mean, I, I can't even
imagine and I, I don't even wantto pretend like I would even
know what I would be like because I'd be a mess for a
long, long time. So I understand.
But I also hearing what you're saying is like embracing those
(38:19):
things they love the things thatremind you of them, albeit
they're painful. Embrace them and and enjoy them
and see that as that spiritual connection.
It's still there with them. Yeah, that was never the
relationship I envisioned havingwith any of my kids.
But this is the relationship nowthat I need to, you know, to
(38:40):
have and to be at peace with because, you know, I'm all the
yearning in the world is not going to, you know, bring her
back. So basically, I know that I, I
am firmly convinced. I know where she is and I
believe that we will see each other again.
It's going to be a glorious reunion once we do.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I, I, I always think of the book
(39:04):
Heaven is for Real. Colton Burpo, this little kid,
who have you read that book? I've read it and I saw the
movie. His story, that story that got
me that that's such a such a powerful story.
And like, because he talks abouthis, his his mom had had a
miscarriage, right? And he met his unborn brother in
(39:27):
in heaven, right? And it's just like I'm getting
chills talking about it. It's just like, wow, that's,
that's incredible that, that is that, that's reality.
That's real. And embracing that reality is
just it, it brings a sense of peace to me at least.
I don't know about you. It would bring a sense of peace
to me and also convinced me moreand more in the survival of
consciousness because I only theother part of that story is her,
(39:49):
their parents parents, I think her, I think their, her father
was a was his father's a minister too, I believe.
And I think they were both Christian and they didn't
believe in really any of the, you know, afterlife, not the
afterlife stuff, but connection,you know, with our our loved 1
spirit. I think that wasn't in their in
their belief system. But once he said, you know, I
(40:10):
met. I met my brother.
I I met my brother who was was ever actually born.
He told me he he died before he was born.
I mean, if there's a mic, the mother would have dropped it
because she never told him that.And so that that to me, even the
most skeptical individual would have to really, I think, look
into the possibilities. Is there life after death and
(40:32):
does our conscience to survive? And will we see our loved ones
again? I mean, that stuff would be, if
I was still a skeptic about that, that would get me thinking
and get me Explorer. 100% man, this has been so good, Dave.
We could talk forever. I love this conversation.
We have to wrap it up though. I want to thank you for your
time before we sign off, I want to encourage people to to check
(40:54):
out what you're doing. So I want to plug you and
yourself. So your website,
davidrobertsmsw.com. The link also is in the the show
notes, but anything you want to drive people towards, anything
you want to plug before we wrap this thing up?
Yeah, One last thing I want to Iwant to plug is if anybody is
interested in learning more about the spiritually
(41:16):
transformative experience that Ihad with Reverend Patty Farino,
a sampling of our conversations about psychology and
spirituality and the importance of critical thinking for the
present and future generations, I would encourage them to check
out our book on Amazon. It's when the psychology
professor with the minister, thesubtitle being How the woman on
(41:37):
the corner of Hunter and Whittier permanently transformed
1 academics worldview. And that'll give everybody that
we left nothing unsaid in this book.
Everything about my story, my including how the work, what I
did with Janine promoted and really motivated me to do
ancestral healing with my father's decision to leave when
(41:58):
I was young and my mother's decision to overprotect me after
he left. All of that is in there.
And it hopefully for those who decide to purchase it, they'll,
they'll, they'll get a perspective that'll at least get
them thinking. And that's what we want us to
get individuals thinking, you know, and thinking about how can
I expand my core belief systems?What can I do with the
(42:20):
information that's been presented?
Amazing. Well, thank you, Sir.
David robertsmsw.com. Make sure you go there right
now, find out everything about Dave and and pick up that book
for yourself. It's on Amazon.
Thank you, Sir, for your time. I appreciate having you here.
Any parting words? Be gentle with yourself and be
open to what is the the magic ofthe universe.
(42:44):
And there are some things that science can't explain, but
they're real anyway. So Justin, revel in it,
celebrated and being awe of it. Amen.
All right. This has been another true
testimony of breakthrough. Until next time, this is the
unstuck movement.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.