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May 5, 2023 31 mins
Today, Maddy and Julian talk with the amazing John Hodgman who plays Lindsay’s father Tom. He’s maybe more well known as a writer. He’s been a regular contributor to the New York Times Magazine, the Daily Show, and This American Life, and he’s been producing his own podcast since 2010, Judge John Hodgman.

He was also the PC in those Apple commercials where Justin Long is the Mac. You remember those? How could I forget? That’s him! Weird.


They talk about what it’s like acting rather than writing, the zhuzh he came up with later for his line about the serial killer scale from episode 2, and how his own parental advice may or may not have left a lasting impression on his son.


After that, they talk with songwriters and creators Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson-Lopez about the songs in episode 7.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Straw Hut Media.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
That number was definitely like really special for me to shoot.

Speaker 3 (00:07):
Yeah, I remember watching y'all rehearse that number and I
had like I had never heard it. I'd never seen
any of it, and y'all were doing it up on
that stage, and I was like, she gets this, she
gets this character, she gets this whole song like it was.
It was pretty amazing to watch.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
He didn't have that realization until episode seven of eight people.
He was like, Oh, she's she's okay.

Speaker 4 (00:33):
Welcome to the up Here down Low, the official companion
podcast to Who Lose Musical rom Com. Up Here, we're
your hosts, Madison Cross.

Speaker 5 (00:41):
And Juliene Goza, two friends and theater kids.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
You're the Baker to my Baker's.

Speaker 5 (00:45):
Wife, and you're the Roxy to my Velma.

Speaker 4 (00:47):
And we're here to look behind the scenes with cast,
crew and creators on making musical TV Magic.

Speaker 5 (00:53):
Musical TV Magice.

Speaker 4 (00:55):
I told you not to sing.

Speaker 5 (01:05):
It's our second to last episode, so weird. One more
to go, one part more, all.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
Right, Jean Valjean. Today we talk with the amazing John Hodgman,
who plays Lindsay's father Tom. He's maybe more well known
as a writer He's been a regular contributor to The
New York Times magazine, The Daily Show, and This American Life,
and he's been producing his own podcast since twenty ten,
Judge John Hodgman.

Speaker 5 (01:28):
He was also the PC in those Apple commercials where
Justin Long is the mac. You remember those?

Speaker 4 (01:33):
How could I forget?

Speaker 5 (01:34):
That's him?

Speaker 4 (01:36):
We'll talk about what it's like acting rather than writing
the jouge he came up with later for his line
about the Serial Killers scale from episode two and how
his own parental advice may or may not have left
a lasting impression on his son.

Speaker 5 (01:48):
After that, we'll talk with songwriters and creators Bobby Lopez
and Kristin Anderson Lopez about the songs in episode seven.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
But first let's start with a little recap.

Speaker 5 (02:07):
Put on the shoes to tap its time for the
week gap.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
We find ourselves here again.

Speaker 5 (02:17):
We can't keep meeting like this.

Speaker 4 (02:20):
We're going into episode seven. Baggage, Baggage, she got baggage,
that pink little satchel. Honey, There's something in there that
we quickly learn is her ex's mother's wedding dress that
she never gave back. Because we actually haven't really learned
the story of what happened when she left.

Speaker 5 (02:42):
Right, And we also didn't know that she was six
days away from getting married.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
Yeah, we didn't know it was that soon.

Speaker 5 (02:49):
I can't help but judge her a little bit, especially
with the dress. I'm like, that's such chaotic energy, girl,
like leave the dress. Well.

Speaker 4 (02:56):
I think also, that's like what her mom was trying
to later on, tell her, like, you left us here
and you didn't give us anything. We had to pick
up the pieces.

Speaker 5 (03:05):
Right, And so so Lindsay goes back.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
Yeah, but before she goes back, we learned that the
video game that he had worked on is now launching
and they're having a launch party, which means that he's
going to see his ex girlfriend, Fiona, who cheated on him,
And so he's like, I really shouldn't go, and she's like, no,
let's go. I'll go with you. She promises to go
with him, but as she's figuring out that she's got

(03:29):
to get rid of this baggage, she decides she's going
to take the suitcase with the dress back home.

Speaker 5 (03:34):
I think that's also kind of selfish for sure, Like
I'm like, you could figure this out later, go with
your boy to the video game launch?

Speaker 4 (03:40):
Yeah, and it's also causing her to lie.

Speaker 5 (03:43):
Again, Like I'm judging. Lindsay's so hard in this episode.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
I know, I feel bad too, Like I get it,
she's lost and trying to find herself, but there is
just so much lying. It's like, you're living with this
guy's family and you're not going to tell him I
got to go take care of some business.

Speaker 5 (04:00):
That'd be so hurtful.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
Yeah, and of course he's hurt Yeah, like you know,
although granted we haven't even gotten there yet, but yeah.
So she goes home and she well before that, she's
got this great little number that we loved. Please like me,
Please like me, which I can relate to. That feeling
of just like the knowing someone's mad at you is
the worst.

Speaker 5 (04:20):
The worst. It is the worst, especially if it's a breakup.
It's this weird balance of like I'm not saying love me,
please don't, especially if you're the one that today you're like, no, no, no,
don't love me.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
I don't need you to love me, but but I
need you to like me. And I need to make
sure that all of you and your friends and your.

Speaker 5 (04:33):
Family are a huge family.

Speaker 4 (04:34):
Yeah, everybody likes me, And then she gets back, and
so she's so afraid he's going to be mad at her,
but everybody's so happy to see her.

Speaker 5 (04:42):
And it's also syrups night.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
It's like very VERMONTI. They're like in her Yeah, yeah, yeah,
they're like, come in for cider and syrup. Her ex
is something about like, I'm not mad at you at
all because you had that tick of for something about
she's got some sort.

Speaker 5 (05:02):
Of tickborn psychosis.

Speaker 4 (05:04):
Yes, tickborn psychosis. Thank you get line. And it turns
out her mom lied to everyone.

Speaker 5 (05:10):
In town, which I understand.

Speaker 4 (05:13):
I understand it too.

Speaker 5 (05:15):
I would think of a better life.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
I would think of a better lie too.

Speaker 5 (05:18):
It was also really satisfying to see present day mom, yes,
and not like the eighties childhood version of her mom. Yes.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
I really enjoyed seeing her mom.

Speaker 5 (05:27):
And when you see them together, there's like, at one
point you see the mom with like the her image
of her mom. Yeah, And it occurred to me that
was interesting because like the way she's he's her mom
totally different quite who her mom is. No like her
mom's like much more low key and less like oh
like less naive.

Speaker 4 (05:45):
Yes, yes, and her mom also isn't like in her head,
her mom is this voice of saying, your hair looks
weird or whatever, all these different things, and her mom
is more just trying to keep it together and keep
up appearance. Yes, like even with holding telling her daughter but.

Speaker 5 (06:01):
She sts to go to the grocery store.

Speaker 4 (06:02):
Yeah, Like she's just trying to keep it together. She's
not being like, you're an ugly horde her daughter all
the time. But that's the voice that the daughter hears
in her head, which I can relate to. And I
think that a lot of people's voices of their parents
in their heads, like yeah, but they're like way darker
than the reality of it, all right.

Speaker 5 (06:22):
And so it's then this is interesting because like at
first Miguel is like, yeah, what a great opportunity to
like one up Fiona. Yeah, show up with my new
beautiful girlfriend.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (06:34):
And now and now Lindsay's not coming.

Speaker 4 (06:37):
Not only that she's lied, she's lied again, and she's
lied again, which gives him a perfect opportunity to go
to this party, run into Fiona and his old life
and friends and the life that he wanted that is
looking pretty nice right now. Dang. Then back at home,
she finds out that her parents are separating there's some
stuff there. She decides that she wants to be honest

(06:59):
with everyone.

Speaker 5 (07:00):
Even though Ned obviously really wants to believe that she
does have a tickborn psychost.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
Yeah, let the boy live, I know. But she goes
back and tells him the truth. Anna loved the moment
where she goes to hug him and he's like, no,
what are you doing? Yeah, what the fuck are you doing?
But so she decides to be honest, and she's honest
with them first, she's but she needs to be honest

(07:25):
with Miguel, which I guess is what she's attempting to
do when she goes back to New York and he's
having a great time. He's trying to leave. Him and
Fiona are dancing.

Speaker 5 (07:33):
And from there I knew exactly where this one.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
We all knew where it was going. But he's trying
to get out of there a little bit, which is
obviously something that Lindsay didn't see. But she kisses him
right as Lindsay arrives. I mean, going to the next episode,
they're definitely gonna have to get into the shit, But
really it's Lindsay that's gotta be honest here, bro, like

(07:55):
you know. Granted, I don't think he told her that
his ex was going to be there either, though. I
think both of them are trying not to divulge so
much from their past.

Speaker 5 (08:04):
Maybe it's because I'm biased and I'm like a guy,
but I'm like, all right, let's see of this guy
is nearly as hurtful as she is to him, you know, yeah, Miguel, Like,
I'm like, dude, your move.

Speaker 4 (08:17):
But we have been going back and forth where it's
Lindsay Miguel, Lindsay Miguel, and so we just went through
a Lindsay episode.

Speaker 5 (08:22):
Yeah. Oh, also love that the guy that Fiona hooked
up with was named Orson and we.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
Didn't know the whole time. He's like, what the fuck
my name is Borson. I have empathy for Lindsay because
I one hundred percent have baggage from my past and
things that I've gone through that are really difficult to
share with people, and I freak out all the time.
I have a sick mom, and when like dating someone,

(08:48):
it's kind of nerve racking to be like, hey, just
so you know, this is something that I'm currently dealing with, Like,
are you ready to also carry a bit of this
load like that's pretty scary. Yeah, And I get why
she's hesitant to be like, I did this kind of
shitty thing and I don't want you to know about
it because I don't want to identify as that shitty person.

(09:09):
I want you to know this version of me.

Speaker 5 (09:10):
And I hear you with like, let me prepare you
for my mom.

Speaker 4 (09:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (09:14):
With me, I'm like, Okay, she wears a lot of
le may leggings, little booties.

Speaker 4 (09:19):
She's adorable. I think that as much shit as we're
giving Lindsay, it's not stuff that we haven't done ourselves.

Speaker 5 (09:27):
And also like thinking that you're doing something to be
nice and maybe in doing that you end up doing
something else that's insensitive, like her shirking Miguel to talk
to Ned like I do sit like that all the time.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
Yes, I think it's really natural and makes a lot
of sense. The problem is when it's lie after lie
after lie that she's been caught in. Is when it
builds up and it's like, well, how can I trust
you not to lie to me again now that you're
telling me the truth?

Speaker 5 (09:55):
You know what level messiness is this? For you? On
a scale of one to ten.

Speaker 4 (09:58):
This is messy?

Speaker 5 (09:59):
As hell real. Yeah, I'm giving it a seven out
of ten.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
That's I still say that's MESSI as hell.

Speaker 5 (10:04):
Like nine point five's homicide. Homicide.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
I don't think this is like vander Pump gossip shit,
but like I do think this.

Speaker 5 (10:11):
Is pretty musical.

Speaker 4 (10:14):
Yeah, musical vander Pump on ice on ice. I got
some questions you it's time for the.

Speaker 5 (10:28):
I mean you also did some intense choreo. I'm specifically
thinking of the song where you're clinging to the piano.

Speaker 4 (10:34):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
That one I think was the thing he honestly got me. Officially.
The job was after he's saying please like me, because
krist and I both were were like total people pleasers,
and that song really felt like it gave like voice
to that. And I felt like that was really where
I was like, see, I can do this. I was
like standing here acting like a smoking old man that

(10:58):
I can do, like that should not be a problem.
And so and I remember, you know, we just shot
it was a lot. It was all day and they
built that incredible set and had all that cool lighting
and it you know, it was it was I had
like crazy bruises, remember that, I had like welts and
bruises all over my body from like climbing the piano

(11:21):
and you know, falling off and jumping in the thing.
But I was like, I'm giving this my all. It is.
It's so fun to unravel in front of people's eyes,
like truly, and I love Julie Hewitt, my best friend
and makeup artists like making my makeup just like more
and more like psychotic and just like the desperation in
my eyes and nothing going right and just desperately trying
to hold it together and just like being a complete

(11:43):
wreck at the end. That that number was definitely like
really special for me to shoot.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, I remember watching y'all rehearse that number and I
had like I had never heard it. I had never
seen any of it, and y'all we're doing it up
on that stage, and I was like, oh, like, she
gets this, she gets this character, she gets this whole song,
like it was. It was pretty amazing to watch get
Duck to Water, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
He didn't have that realization until episode seven of eight people.
He was like, Oh, she's she's okay.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Like I said, hatred, Yeah, it's a line.

Speaker 5 (12:18):
She's taking that like a.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
I'm like, can we talk that reminds me fucking duck.

Speaker 5 (12:24):
What is he?

Speaker 2 (12:25):
What's he said?

Speaker 6 (12:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (12:27):
What did she better? Walk up? Is that my pussy?

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (12:39):
I call it. Watched a million times.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
It's so good.

Speaker 5 (12:43):
It's so good.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
We're going to take a quick break and when we
come back we'll talk with the hilarious John Hodgman, who
plays Lindsay's dad Tom.

Speaker 5 (13:11):
Well, we know you from comedy, of course, but was
doing a musical something that was ever on your bucket list?
What was your relationship to musicals before signing on for this?

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Well, I don't you know. I have a long history
in the musical theater. I was a pirate in the
chorus of my high school's production of Pirates at Penzance,
and I was good enough at it that when Rob
Crawford had to skip out of our choir trip to
Florida because he was going on college trips, I got
subbed in as the pirate King, got to sing at

(13:39):
Epcot Center before I am the Pirate.

Speaker 5 (13:42):
King, and it.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Is It is a glorious thing to be a pirate king,
to be honest, talk, singing is what I'm a better
at William Shatner's style. But I love musical theater. I've
loved musicals my whole life. And you know, I had
got to know Bobby because I weaseled my way into
his life when Avenue Q was on Broadway and I

(14:05):
interviewed him because I was used to be a journalist
and I was writing for the New York Times magazine
and I was and I just, you know, I loved it,
but it never occurred to me that I would be
invited to do something with all of these incredible theater
talents in New York City. So it was initially very intimidating.
But luckily Bobby and Kristin wrote the songs to my

(14:29):
weaknesses and once I met. You know, the wonderful thing
about stage actors is that there is I won't say
that there's no ego, but it's a different flavor of ego.
We're all carnes, you know, we're all just show folk,
and particularly stage actors. Obviously all every actor is forced

(14:51):
to make themselves vulnerable in order to do the job.
And as a result, what people a lot of people
take as actors eccentricity or vanity or self consciousness, well
it's just part and parcel of making yourself completely emotionally
open to the world all the time. But because you know,
theater kids just love to be on stage. We were

(15:14):
just having the greatest time. We just had the greatest time.

Speaker 4 (15:17):
I love the term Carney. I really identify with it.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, I love being a Carney absolutely.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
So being a successful writer yourself, does that ever impact
your relationship to being like just an actor on a
project when you receive a script or are you just
like ripping it apart or are you trying to get
into the writer's room.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Or no, no, thank you. Being an actor is a
completely different It's a completely different thing to do. And
that's why I love it so much. You know, I
love writing and I love creating worlds. I love writing
jokes and making jokes and telling stories and crafting stories.
But that's a lot of work. If someone else is

(15:58):
willing to do it, please please be my guest. Because
being a creative, you know, a writer, is living a life,
a mediated life. There's what's happening around you, and then
there's you, and then there's your imagination that's constantly churning, churning,
sort of interpreting what you're seeing and seeing if it

(16:19):
can fit into some storyline. Or a narrative. It's very tiring.
Being an actor means being absolutely present and open. It
takes away that mediation and allows you to just experience
life in the moment, which is really wonderful and challenging.
You know, it's meditative, but meditation and being aware of

(16:39):
what's happening around you is and being disciplined in that
is very challenging. So you know, the other thing is
that we had great script you know, like I read
them like I would not change you know, they did
an incredible job writing them. And you know, I think
I threw a little sauce on the line. I think

(17:00):
it's in the second episode. There's a line where I
say about Carlos Miguel's character that he ranks I put
him on a solid something like six point nine on
the potential serial killer scale. And I think it was
written slightly differently, and I pitched it that way. And
then I realized as soon as Stephen Levinson said, yeah,
that's fine, that I had made it infinitely harder for

(17:22):
me to say potential serial skiller, potential serial killer, potential
I should I should have stayed out of it. Honestly,
that's the only time I remember making a nuisance of
myself from a writerly point of view.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
Oh, we love that line.

Speaker 5 (17:39):
Yeah, there was a lot to dissection.

Speaker 4 (17:41):
We immediately were like, oh god, what are the things
that make people on a scale of serial killer? And
I was like, well, yeah, I once went on a
date with someone that had a Japanese floor mattress, and
I just knew that I had to get out of it.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
I honestly, I was. I was a little nervous going
into the first screening because I was thinking back about
that line, and I found myself rehearsing it again in
the shower two days before the screening. That was you know,
like right around premiere time. It's like, we're not going
to film it again. Why am I rehearsing this line again?
And I came up with a little punch up that

(18:14):
I'm going to share with you exclusively for you.

Speaker 4 (18:16):
Oh please.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
We wouldn't have had time in the moment for it anyway.
On my potential serial killer scale, I put him on
about a one point nine, you know, a little Ted
Bundy in the looks department. But I think he's capable
of human empathy.

Speaker 5 (18:29):
That was my punch up.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
My added line, little Ted Bundy, Little Ted Bundy in
the looks, but capable of empathy.

Speaker 5 (18:35):
That's very weird.

Speaker 4 (18:36):
That's how I like him too. That's a great line.
But I'm curious because the Internet has told me your father.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yes, that's true.

Speaker 4 (18:48):
Okay, then the Internet was right with this role that's about.
You know, you're playing the father that's the voice in
Lindsay's head. Does that have any sort of like reflection
for you as a father of like, oh gosh, I'm
going to be this voice in my kid's head.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
I kind of already well. I made peace with that
because one time I did try to give my son
advice when he was very little and he was being uh,
I mean, he was probably nine, I want to say,
and he was at camp and a couple of the
kids were picking on him. And this was in Maine.
We were up in Maine for the summer. And they

(19:26):
came from a different background, and I dare say a
more suburban background. They were not from Maine either. Let's
say they were the rich kids, you know what I
mean they were. They weren't from they were from a
suburb and they were kind of picking on my son
and wasn't feeling very comfortable, and I said, hey, you know,
before you go to camp, why don't you get this shirt,

(19:46):
this T shirt that you that you got at Brooklyn Boulders,
which is a climbing gym here in Gwanas, Brooklyn. And
he got it, and I said, you should wear this
today and if anyone gives you any trouble, you can
remind yourself and you can even say it to them
that you got this shirt on your birthday because you
climbed to the top of the wall by yourself. You

(20:07):
live in New York City, that you live in Brooklyn.
You have a whole life that is your own, and
they don't know anything about you, so they can go
ahead and shut the fuck up. And I was going
great until I said shut the fuck up because I
had just broken a huge step. I'm not Kenny shopson.
I didn't raise my kids saying shut the fuck up
around them all the time, telling customers to fuck off.

(20:30):
And everything that happened in my son's face showed me
like it was going great. Maybe I didn't say shut
the fuck up, or it's like don't give me any shit,
or whatever it was. I said, I think it was shit,
not fuck. I don't know why there's a difference there is,
but either way, as soon as I said that swear word,
the building confidence in my son's face became horror because

(20:51):
Dad's not supposed to swear. Dad's not supposed to swear,
and I already he was going like from his point
of view, was like, I'm already going into a situation
where I don't I don't know what's gonna happen. Kids
are being mean to me, and now my dad is
just tossing dropping s bombs all over the place. The
world is completely unpredictable, you know, like what's going to happen?

(21:12):
So he was terrified. I don't know whether that's something
he carries with him, but it's the sort of thing
I realize, like we do all the time as parents
that just leave ripples forever. And if it's not that,
maybe he doesn't remember that, but there's certainly something that
I did said that let him let him down or
made him nervous. Same with our daughter. And you know,

(21:35):
we're all doing our best, and we can try to
do better, but we're gonna leave impact on people, and
we can hope that it's the good impact that we intend,
but sometimes it's not good impact.

Speaker 5 (21:47):
I find that to be so daunting. I mean, I
don't have any children, but that's one of the things
keeping me from rushing out and making a few. It's
just the impact of my words, you know, God, rushing.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
Out and making a few. God, you men have it's
so easy.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, maybe you should read a book about how babies
are made. It was interesting and up here to remember
that we are Lindsey's thoughts. You know, we are not
independent characters, but everything that we're saying and doing is
representing a memory she has or an extrapolation of what

(22:26):
she feels like her parents might have said in that situation.
And that was an interesting challenge because you know, we
we are an extension of Lindsay's feelings.

Speaker 5 (22:36):
Yeah, it was interesting to see Katie's character come back
as like, you know, an actual person and not just
well right, you know, an idea of that.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Yes, seeing that contrast was really really cool. You know
that seeing Joan in real life compared to the Joan
of Lindsay's imagination really brought home like, yeah, we are
the imprint of actual people. And of course we know
that the real Tom is no longer married or at
least they're separated from each other, so who knows what

(23:06):
weird midlife crisis Tom is going through. I'd love to
see what he's see what kind of car he buys.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
He's surrounded by the daddy just wants to live.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, exactly. You know they're in northern Vermont, so probably
he would get really into fish. I'm talking about the band.

Speaker 5 (23:28):
It's time for another quick break. When we come back,
we talk about the songs in episode seven, Please Like Me,
and the Truth Is with songwriters and creators Kristin Anderson
Lopez and Bobby Lopez. Hold on to your phone.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
It's time to talk about songs.

Speaker 5 (24:10):
Please like Me.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
I want you to like me. I'm not gonna force you.

Speaker 7 (24:16):
I just strongly feel you should. It's true now though
we are through now, I need you to like me
so that I can believe I'm good. La la la
la la la la la.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
La la la la la la la la la la
la like me.

Speaker 4 (24:40):
Episode seven, Please like Me, which is maybe a female
anthem in such a serious way that I just was like, okay,
reading me for filth. This song is like, oh, like the.

Speaker 5 (24:53):
Amount of time of her climbing.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
Up the Yeah, I was, I was well just also
the narrative of it is that she's just like, I
did something bad, but I also really don't want anyone
to not like me, because you know, I want to
people please. Yeah, I'm a horrible person, but I don't
want to you know, and to have it be this
like sort of Liza Minelli Cabaret moment is very apt.

Speaker 6 (25:14):
Please like me, And the truth is we're definitely in
dialogue with each other because I think that, you know,
Lindsay's whole arc, going back to her whole arc, and
maybe the arc of many of us with double X
chromosomes or female identifying, is this idea that we need
to be things for other people. We spend our whole lives,

(25:36):
and it's adaptive. We learn like, oh, you're gonna do
better in school. You're going to feel less alone if
you learn how to read what people want you to
be and you give it to them. But then there's
always this moment that I think, you know, started for me.
I awoke to it in my twenties when I realized
I actually am exhausting myself trying to be everything forever everybody.

(26:01):
At the same time, you know, I still have the
please like me. Programming in my veins and that song
it was like the first song we wrote maybe in
two thousand and six, same tune, but completely different lyrics.
To fit it into this story, Yeah, I went back and.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Checked the day we were rewriting it. It was we
wrote it March two thousand and seven, and we rewrote
it March.

Speaker 6 (26:27):
Twenty twenty two.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Wow, which I think is some kind of record.

Speaker 6 (26:32):
Wow, it just took us thirteen years to finish. But
I think that is It is this drowning feeling of
the more you try to please someone but you're not
in touch with your own authenticity, the harder you'll work
and the more you'll fail. And it's something we all

(26:52):
know as people pleasers. Of those of you were people
pleasers out there. The piano that was also Sonya's, I
did to put to make it like, oh, let's make
it a cabaret and let's let's make a piano where
the because it was hard to crack this one too.
How to bring this one to life in a way
that was doable, in a way that was tangible. And

(27:17):
there was a version with backup singers, but it didn't
work because the backup singers made her feel less alone,
and what you really needed to feel is how alone
you can feel in this drowning moment, and we worked
really hard to get There's that camera moment where she
turns upstage and she goes like, I need you to

(27:39):
like me so that I can believe I'm good, and
there's just like this strip away from one second and
then she goes la la la la la la la
la l l l L. So she, you know, has
this glimpse of this like giant wound that's inside of
her driving this people pleasing, but then right back to
the show and then you know, you can only fight.

Speaker 4 (28:03):
That wound so long.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
You can't.

Speaker 6 (28:06):
You can only dance that fast for so long. And
so that brings us to the next song, which I
think is my favorite song from this whole show, called
The Truth Is.

Speaker 4 (28:21):
But it's.

Speaker 7 (28:25):
You can if you want anything had.

Speaker 5 (28:37):
Patry, you want them to know the true.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Damage true.

Speaker 6 (28:51):
It's something that I found myself quoting so many times
to so many people, and it was based on something
I was dealing with where at the time where somebody
had this story about me that I had done something
with a certain intent that was so not my intent,
but their story.

Speaker 4 (29:12):
Was so.

Speaker 6 (29:14):
They had such conviction that I felt horrible.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
I was like, am I that?

Speaker 5 (29:19):
Am I not?

Speaker 6 (29:20):
And really struggling and almost feeling gas lit, like oh
I am a horrible person and really had to write
this song to tell myself. They're like, no, I get
to define my own truth. I get to define my
own story and my own intention behind something. And yes,
there will be people in your life that will think

(29:43):
that you are bad. There will be people. You can't
get through this life without somebody making up a story
that you're the villain in theirs and if you try
to avoid that. I think even Mother Teresa, especially Mother Teresa,
in some ways it has to deal with that, which
is horrible. She's not with us anymore, so.

Speaker 4 (30:07):
We can talk all this that we want to.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Considering.

Speaker 5 (30:13):
I was raising the Catholic Church. I'm like so squeamish
right now as you guys.

Speaker 6 (30:17):
But anyone who's trying to do good in the world
is going to be cast as a villain in somebody
else's and learning to define your own truth and stand
in it, because unless you can find that truth for yourself,
that foundation for yourself, you have nothing to give the
other person. You're you're lying to them, and it's slippery.

(30:41):
And so if you want to be seen and you
want to have an epic soulmate love story, you have
to learn how to understand your own story and have
your own truth. So that is my sermon for today.

Speaker 5 (30:55):
Gray for the haters, thanks for listening. If you want
to reach out to us and share a moment where
you could have burst into song, email us at up
here at straw hutmedia dot com.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
If you like the show, please rate, review and share
with your friends.

Speaker 5 (31:15):
See you next week.

Speaker 4 (31:22):
Up Here down Low is a straw Hut Media production.
It's hosted by Madison Cross and Julian Goza. The show
it's produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bulls. Our associate
producers are Lydia McMahon, Javier Salas, and Jean Lee. Our
editor is Daniel Ferreira. Big thanks to everyone at Hulu,
including Kristin Anderson, Lopez and Bobby Lopez for their help

(31:42):
putting the show together
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