EP 61: Love, Resilience, and Bipolar Disorder: Travis and Sue Best’s Journey of Healing and Hope

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm really glad that in your mood cycle survival
guide it includes who can Ireach out to, because the spouse
cannot be the only person.
It's too heavy, it's way tooheavy, and you know for me to
have people that I can reach outto and say, hey, travis is not
okay.
Can you please reach out to him?
You know we need help.

(00:22):
That is huge.
So thank you for including that.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Hey, welcome to the Upside of Bipolar conversations
on the road to wellness.
I am so excited that youdecided to join me today.
We're a community learning howto live well with bipolar
disorder and we reject that.
The best we can expect islearning how to suffer well with
it.
I'm your host, michelleReitinger of MyUpsideOfDowncom,

(00:50):
where I help people with bipolardisorder use the map to
wellness to live healthy,balanced, productive lives.
Welcome to the conversation.
Hey, welcome to the Upside ofBipolar.
I am your host, michelleReitinger, and I am thrilled.
Today I have some really uniqueguests.

(01:11):
This is Travis and Sue Best,and they are actually part of
the Upsiders Tribe, my program,where I help coach people
through the healing process, andI'm so thrilled that they
volunteered to be on the podcasttoday because I think that
their experience is going to bereally helpful to you.
So, without further ado, whydon't we start with your story,
travis, and then Sue?

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yay.
So, michelle, first of all,thanks for hosting us.
We really appreciate it andhopefully this is helpful.
I was diagnosed with bipolar in2015.
We were married in 2005,December of 05.
And even before diagnosis, likein hindsight, I really didn't

(01:51):
understand this.
But my father doesn't managehis moods like well at all.
I mean, he was diagnosed withbipolar but refused to take
medication.
That's after I was diagnosedand he still, to this day, has
issues managing his mood.
So I lived in hindsight.
What I would say is an abusivechildhood.
I was never physically abused,but was yelled at was words to

(02:16):
her.
I didn't even know that existeduntil Sue and I got married.
So fast forward to us beingmarried, I was even before our
marriage.
I drank a lot.
That's just how I managed life,just really with alcohol, with

(02:39):
alcohol and a lot of pornography, sexual-related stuff.
That's just how I numbed myemotions and how I managed
emotions, and at the time Ididn't realize it's what I was
doing.
That's just the life that I wasliving.
And I have bipolar.
I say have bipolar too.

(03:00):
I don't even like.
Through you I've learned thatbipolar really is just a made up
, made up word to describe alist of symptoms and I like.
And then I remember when youtold me that I confirmed it with
my psychiatrist he's like yep,that's it.
We just created something thathas this list of symptoms.
And when someone has that listof symptoms, that's the

(03:21):
diagnosis, we give it and thatdrives the treatment plan.
And we give you a med and hopethat it works, and if it doesn't
, then we give you another medand finally we find a med that
maybe works, and then when itstops working, we up the dose or
we change your meds.
I mean, it's just like when hehad a really frank conversation
with me, I was just like, wow,this is like they're just

(03:43):
throwing darts at a board andhoping to hit the right thing,
which just makes me so sad foranybody that suffers with mental
illness and suffers in thetraditional route, because I,
when I got medicated, inhindsight I went on Lomictal in
2015.
In hindsight, I went on Lamictalin 2015 and in hindsight, like

(04:08):
at the time, I thought thingswere better.
In hindsight, they were justdifferent.
They really weren't better, butbecause it was different, there
was kind of a season ofadjustment of me like, oh, wow,
this is like.
Oh, my goodness, this pill hashelped me so much and then at
some point it really, reallyreally didn't help.

(04:28):
I mean, I was like I waspre-diagnosis, I was suicidal
and would have.
I remember telling Sue onenight that I would have
committed myself to a middleinstitution if we didn't have
kids, but I didn't want to dothat with kids at home, to a
mental institution if we didn'thave kids, but I didn't want to
do that with kids at home.

(04:48):
And then, on the mictal, therewere times that I was suicidal
and probably would havecommitted myself to a mental
institution if we didn't havekids at home.
So it really didn't.
It didn't change a lot.
It just it was just taking thepill made, made things different
for a little while.
And because it was different,it's like, oh wow, I'm better
now.
But then in hindsight, likethat really was maybe three to

(05:19):
six months before, like thedifferent wore off and like the
same patterns and everythingkind of revolved or came back.
And then I stumbled across youa couple of years ago now, I
think a year and a half ago andthrough the relationship with
you, one year, it's only been ayear, it's only been a year, wow
.
So through the relationshipwith you we got introduced to

(05:40):
True Hope.
I came off of Lamentel this yearit was about a three month
process Came off of Lamentel andwent on to True Hope.
I came off of Lamictal thisyear it was about a three-month
process Came off of Lamictal andwent on to True Hope.
That was a very, very rough itwasn't a rough 90 days.
I would be fine for two weeksand then I would become
extremely unstable for two tofour days and it was a very hard

(06:04):
two to four days and then I'dstabilize for two weeks and then
have a very hard two to fourdays.
And you helped us kind ofrecognize that pattern and once
we realized that pattern, thingsgot easier to manage.
It was still crazy but at leastwe knew it was coming, we knew
what to expect and we had thingsset in place to help manage the

(06:26):
craziness that I would gothrough for two to four days.
When I finally came completelyoff of Lamictal and was on true
hope only it had probably been aweek.
And I look back at my life andI was like, oh my goodness, I've
lived a delusion.
Back at my life and I was like,oh my goodness, I've lived a

(06:48):
delusion.
And really I know that soundsweird because I remember
thinking before this how couldsomebody live a delusion?
What does that even mean?
And then I was like, oh mygoodness, I've lived a delusion
because I thought that Sue wouldrather be married to someone
else other than me.
And that was a belief that Ihad and, pre being on True Hope,

(07:09):
I could have given you 20reasons why it was true.
And anybody that knows Sue andI knows that she loves me to
death.
She's not done anything tocreate that delusion.
But when I was living thatdelusion, I really believed it.
I just, in the core of who Iwas, I thought Sue wanted to be
married to someone else.
And that was kind of the, thelens that I looked at the world

(07:34):
through and and that may seemlike a really small detail, but
like that was my, like that wasmy belief that drove everything.
I mean I could have asked Suelike, hey, I'm thinking about
going and I don't know going anddoing X, y Z, like whatever I'm
doing doesn't matter, but Iwant to go do X, y Z, what do

(07:56):
you think?
And Sue would go ooh, I don'tthink that's a good idea because
of ABC, and she's just being aprotective wife because she
knows that whatever I've saidit's not a good idea.
Well, my lens is like if shewere married to that other guy,
she'd support him.
She would think that him doingthis would be a great idea.
She has an issue with me doingit.
She thinks I'm not good enough.

(08:16):
And there you go away away withthat rabbit.
And that was literally that onebelief touched every part of my
life in ways that is justmind-blowing.
So I came off Lamictal.
Within a week of beingcompletely off of Lamictal, I
was like what was I thinking?

(08:38):
That was a delusion that Ilived.
And it was really freeing torealize that.
And I remember telling like notjust once, but like we just had
lots of conversations aboutthat and it's like, oh my
goodness, I'm so sorry that I'vethat.
I believe this.
I don't know what.
My like don't know what wasgoing on.
It's not true, we're good.

(08:58):
That was in July.
So in late September a littlebump appeared above my left ear
and I went and got it boxed andI found out that I have cancer
and through two misdiagnoses, onthe third diagnosis they got it
correct.
I had stage four melanoma witha tumor above my left ear and

(09:24):
all my lymph nodes on the leftside of my neck and two tumors
in my left lung.
So not a, I guess, pretty scaryprognosis.
I'm in the process of beingtreated for that and we've had
great, great.
The tumors have responded to itreally good.
I know you know us, michelle, Imean the viewers.
You can see there's a tumorthere, but that tumor was like

(09:44):
when it was worse.
You could see it like thisbecause my ear was like pushed
out and you would see the tumor.
It was terrible.
So it's responding great totreatment.
But the reason that's importantor important piece of this
puzzle is, as I've started thetreatment I had to come off of
TrueHelp supplements, not justTrueHelp supplements.
The doctor had me stop anysupplement that I want because

(10:07):
he didn't know how it mayinteract with the immunotherapy
and he didn't want to doanything that could prevent the
immunotherapy from working, eventhough he's an amazing
oncologist, very like he doesstudies on high-dose vitamin C.
You know he's a verycutting-edge oncologist that

(10:28):
understands maybe theprescription route is not always
the way to go, but with my kindof cancer he's like this is
immunotherapy is your best shotand we don't know how it
interacts with any of thesupplements you're on and he
said it's not that I think itwould interact poorly with them,
it's that I don't know.
So in order for you to have thebest shot at saving your life,

(10:52):
you need to come off all of thesupplements.
So now I'm at a point where,literally, I've been off of the
supplements for four weeks Sue'smuch better with details than I
am.
So I've been off of thesupplements for four weeks and
then, because of some sideeffects from the immunotherapy,
I had to change what I'm eating.

(11:14):
Another piece is I had startedeating keto, which definitely
helps.
At least it helped with my moodinstability tremendously, and I
know there's a lot of research.
I think Dr Chris Palmer has alot of research on that.
So, but because of the sideeffects I'm having, I've had to
go to a pretty carb heavy um,carb heavy diet right now, and

(11:36):
that started about a week ago.
I am having some, some symptoms,very specific delusional
symptoms that started thismorning and, like I know, right
now there's symptoms.
I know that it's.
It's just an interestingperspective, having lived a
delusion, come out from underthat and be like, oh my goodness

(11:59):
, I'm so sorry, that's not true.
Like, why did?
I'm sorry that I did anythingto harm you during our marriage
because I've not been a nice guyat times because of my
delusional beliefs.
And then breaking free from thatand now being back in a place
where I can't take thesupplements, I can't eat the
things that I know I need to eatto assist my mental health,

(12:22):
that I know I need to eat to toinsist, my mental health, and
now I'm becoming symptomatic andthis morning I'm laying in bed
and having very similardelusional thoughts I've had in
the past and it's like I'm justlaying there.
I'm like, oh my goodness, thisfeels true right now, even
though I know it's not like I'mat the same moment.
I'm like it feels true and Iknow it's not like I'm at the

(12:44):
same moment, like it feels trueand I know it's not.
So, um, I don't know if maybeSue can give her perspective and
we'll be glad to answer anyquestions that you may have
based off.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
I've got lots of questions, but I want to hear
Sue's story too.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Oh goodness, um, wow, where to begin?
Um, it's a lot, lot.
Mental illness is a lot, and Ithink the thing that is the
hardest about um mental illnessis it's silent and it's not

(13:18):
symptomatic from a visualperspective and because of that,
you feel very alone a lot ofthe time without a good support
system.
Even with a good support system, there are times that I don't
even want to reach out.
I'm just like so weary I don'teven want to reach out when

(13:39):
Travis was diagnosed in 2015,was diagnosed in 2015.
Part of that was because I wasat a point where I was like this
has been 10 years.
It's getting worse.
He'd never been physicallyabusive, but I became fearful
about it.
And between that and then alsogoing, between that and then

(14:09):
also going what are my daughtersgoing to learn if I don't stand
up for us?
And I was very good, I'm veryadaptive so I got very good at
making sure that any of hisanger was on me and our kids as
much as possible.
There's no way you can controlall of it, but as much as
possible I did.
And, um, I was actually talkingwith um a mentor, and was

(14:31):
talking to her, and she was um Iwas talking to her about
growing my business and she'slike well, how many appointments
are you holding?
I'm like, oh, I'm not holdingappointments.
And she goes well, why?
And I'm like, oh, I can't leavemy house.
She's like, well, why can't youleave your house?
I was like I will have kids athome and I need to make sure
that I'm taken care of.
Well, can't your husband takecare of them?

(14:52):
Oh, no, not at all, he canbarely take care of himself.
Like it's a problem.
It's not a little problem, it'sa big problem.
And she said tell me more aboutthat.
And so I started telling hersome of the things that happened
.
And she said well, what do youthink it is?

(15:12):
And my best friend, princess,and I, about a year before,
maybe two years before, when wewere out of town, we were at a
leadership conference.
When we were out of town, wewere at a leadership conference.
I was like I really think he'sbipolar.
And then she goes well, haveyou told him?
I'm like, no, I'm not tellinghim that.
I'm like it's bad enoughalready.

(15:35):
I sure don't need to hearanything else.
So fast forward to thisconversation with my mentor.
And I was talking to her andshe said well, what do you think
it is?
And I said I really think he'sbipolar, because so many things
don't make sense.
And she goes well, have youtold him?
And I was like no absolutely not, I'm like I'm really good at

(15:55):
skirting around stuff, no.
And so, anyway, she said, well,do you think if it's chemical?
He, she said, you know, does hebelieve in medicine?
And I was like, oh yeah, hebelieves in medicine.
And she said, well, do youthink that he would go see
someone if you said can we goand talk to somebody to

(16:17):
eliminate the possibility thatit's chemical?
And I truly believe that Godgave her those words to give to
me.
And I said I don't know, but Ican say that I can't say that.
So, funny enough, we weresupposed to go to a night of
worship that night and insteadwe went to a restaurant and I
can still remember where we weresitting and we were talking and

(16:38):
I just, you know, asked him thequestion.
I told him I was talking to Nanthat day and he said well, what
did y'all talk about?
And I said well, here's one ofthe things.
And she asked if you wouldconsider going to see if it
could be chemical.
And he's like, yeah, I'll go.
Travis said, yeah, I'll go.
And she said something thatreally took me aback.

(17:00):
She said his quality of lifemust be terrible.
Now, i'm'm gonna be honest, Ihad never considered his quality
of life.
Yeah, it's my sucks.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, just like well, because you're in survival mode
constantly, and so when you'rein survival mode, you can't
think outside yourself Likeyou're not.
There's no room for empathy.
You're just trying to surviveand protect your children.
Right, exactly.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
It was 100% about surviving and, yes, and
protecting the girls.
One hundred, yeah, that's it,that was my life.
And so, anyways, it was veryodd because we we rode around
after that and we were justdriving and he's like are you
basically just happy all thetime?
And I'm like, well, yeah, and Iwas feeling real brave that

(17:42):
night.
I was like, yeah, unless I'maround you I'm really happy.
And I was feeling real bravethat night.
I was like, yeah, unless I'maround you I'm really happy.
I'm like, but like it's reallystressful.
And he's like, I don't know whatthat means.
He's like I don't know what itmeans to be happy.
He's like do you, you know, canyou be entertained by anything?
I was like, oh yeah, I was likeI can watch a bug walk across

(18:04):
the floor and find wonder in it.
Like you know, I don't needentertainment, you know.
So, anyways, it was veryinteresting and that kind of
started our journey.
One thing that was veryinteresting when, you know, we
went to see a psychiatrist.
That was recommended, and whenwe were there, travis starts
talking about his childhood andI was like, when we were there,
travis starts talking about hischildhood and I was like, and

(18:25):
I'm sitting there going tell himabout the bad place and, like
his head whipped around, he'slike what bad place?
So it only took about 10minutes of Travis you know him
asking Travis questions andTravis answering to go Okay.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, and she also.
Let's be real, she startedanswering the questions on my
behalf.
The psychiatrist was leaningmore on her than me.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, because he would ask a question and Travis
would say no, and I was like,actually, this is, this is
reality.
And so and I think that'ssomething that's super important
to you If you are strugglingwith a mental illness, do not go
anywhere by yourself.
Just don't, because, you know,let somebody that loves you and

(19:09):
has your best interest at heartjoin you, because if you don't,
if you can't see reality, youcan't communicate reality, and
if you're not communicatingreality, then help cannot be
given in the right way.
So that was really important.
I will tell you, the biggestchange I saw is Maris.

(19:29):
Our daughter was three at thetime.
No, she was four Before that.
She would let Travis not getnear her, she wouldn't talk to
him, she could be sitting besideof him, I could be halfway
across the house and she'd saymom, will you get me some water?
And he's like Maris, I'm righthere beside of you.
She's like, no, I want mom.
So it's like she was very.

(19:50):
But within three weeks of himbeing on a mood stabilizer, she
came crawling in his lap and sothat was something that was like
, okay, we're on the right path,that there's a problem.
That was like, okay, we're onthe right path, that there's a
problem.
And then, as time went on, itwas very obvious that things
were not getting better.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
They were getting worse.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
I think it's nothing short of a miracle that Travis
is still here.
There are many times he walkedout the door and I was like I
really don't know if.
I'll see him again.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's been a lot and I thinkyou know we started on a very,
very deep dive last December ofall things bipolar and we

(20:38):
started looking for resources.
Because when he was diagnosedlike nobody, there's no
resources, because when he wasdiagnosed like nobody, there's
no resources and there's, youknow, there's very A, there's
very few resources, b there arevery few that are good, and C
there are very few that you knoware authentic and that really
give you a true picture, andsome are like oh well, you know,

(21:01):
this is, there are methods, andif you say here that they're
going to work, they're notbecause there's nothing proven.
And you know, I'm just, I'm notthat kind of researcher, I'm a
let me find out all the things.
And thankfully Travis is too.
And so in doing our deep dive,he quickly found you and I think
that is one of the greatestgifts from God ever on his

(21:24):
healing journey, because thatchanged everything.
He started joining you onWednesday nights.
He started doing his mood cyclesurvival.
I love that in your program.
One of my favorite things aboutyour program is you do a
check-in call every single month.
Program is you do a check-incall every single month and I

(21:50):
was included on those, and youknow, just being able to check
in and go how are things goingand have dialogue, that mattered
, was huge, was just absolutelyhuge, and you know.
And then learning about truehope.
Then learning about true hope,I will tell you, there's been

(22:16):
many times that I've wondered if, if I would ever have a spouse
that is, a partner, and so youintroducing him to the resources
that you've created, and thenalso True Hope and helping us
navigate True Hope has meanteverything.

(22:40):
And July 12th was the last timehe took Lamental.
And after that we actually wentaway for the weekend at the end
of August, went to a friend'scabin in the mountains and right
before Helene crazy enough, amonth before Helene happened
Hurricane Helene and justdevastated that area.

(23:01):
But we were in, we were there,and you know you live in
survival mode for so long.
And then you've also got, youknow, 19 years of PTSD on top of
it, and the whole time we'rethere.
I'm like, okay, I'm enjoyingthis, but when is the shoe going
to drop?
Because, because that's thefirst time that we have ever

(23:28):
gone out of town together and hedid not get sick and he did not
get depressed.
It is the first and only tripthat we've had where he was
stable, and so we had about 90solid days of good stability.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
And then it all went to Hades.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Which I do want to add to what Sue said about
mental illness being a solidillness.
We actually talked about itthis morning.
Like I was diagnosed, I wasmisdiagnosed twice.
The second diagnosis they saidthere is no help For cancer.
For cancer, I'm sorry.
Yes, so recently.
The cancer diagnosis Mis, sorry, yes, so recently, the cancer
diagnosis misdiagnosed.
They told me I had squamouscell carcinoma.
Then they said, nevermind,you've got spindle cell neoplasm

(24:11):
, there is no cure, it's veryaggressive.
We're offering you palliativecare to make sure you're as
comfortable as possible.
And then there was three weeksbefore we found out no, I have
melanoma.
After we got another opinion ata different hospital.
But during that three week timeperiod I had accepted like hey,
that that may be my reality, Imight be gone.

(24:33):
They didn't give me a timeframe, but rare, aggressive, no
treatment.
I'm thinking six months.
So I'm thinking I may not seemy next birthday and I'm 46
years old.
And I just kind of dealt withthat like, ok, that might be my
reality and if it is whatever'slike, god may heal me, he may
not, I may be gone in fourmonths.
I don't know and I had.
I've kind of dealt with that soand I'm still like I have

(24:53):
melanoma?
There's no, even though I'veresponded to treatment really,
really well.
That doesn't mean that couldn'tchange in two months.
And so I'm literally right nowin the middle of a very real and
public battle for my life, andthis battle is way easier than
the battle I fought with bipolardisorder.

(25:14):
Like, the bipolar disorderbattle was a thousand times
harder than what I'm goingthrough right now and I know
that sounds real because cancerbecomes a very public fight with
if you share it with anybody.
Everybody's like supportive andoh my goodness, how can I help
any of you share a mentalillness with somebody?

(25:35):
It's people's intentions aregood but they don't know what to
do.
Like, oh my goodness, I'm sosorry you struggled with that.
So let me get back to my lifebecause I don't know what to do.
So it's, I think, especially forsomeone in Sue's shoes, that's,
people like she lives with aperson who's verbally abusing
her on a daily basis and blameit her for everything.

(25:58):
Like any problem I had becameSue's fault.
If she hadn't done X, y, z,this would all be okay with me.
This is her fault and she justlived a very beat down life and
there's just not support.
There's not good support forpeople with mental illness and
there's not good support for theloved ones the husbands, wives,
kids, parents, the loved onesof people that suffer from some

(26:22):
kind of mood instability ormental illness.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
Yeah, and I.
So I'm so excited to talk toyou guys.
There's so much here and I lovethat.
I'm so thankful.
I want to make sure my audienceunderstands I did not approach
you guys to do this.
I would never do that toanybody in my group.
So I don't want people to beafraid like come into the group
and then I'm going to exposeyour life on the podcast.
I'm very grateful that youoffered to do this because I
think that the biggest issuehere that I look at when you

(26:53):
were diagnosed, they werelistening for symptoms.
They weren't listening withcuriosity for what caused the
symptoms to occur in the firstplace.
Right, and when you arestruggling and you talk about
right, and when you arestruggling and you talk about
you know, when you talk aboutalcohol and porn, those are
coping mechanisms.
Your brain was suffering.
You had especially you knowwhen you talk about your

(27:14):
childhood.
When we did our intake witheach other, I asked you I always
ask people tell me your story.
I want to know your story.
And when I asked you aboutchildhood, you said you didn't
remember a lot of your childhoodand I'm like, oh, that's a clue
.
That's actually an indicationthere's probably trauma in your
childhood.
My children have holes in theirmemory.

(27:35):
My son doesn't remember almostany of his childhood and I was
very unstable during hischildhood, and so there was a
lot of.
It's a trauma response for thethe mind to just it
compartmentalizes and then putsit away.
But you have all of the copingmechanisms that are evidence of
that trauma, and so what youwere dealing with and one thing

(27:57):
that you didn't mention that Iwanted I want to just bring up
also is that you were afirefighter, correct, and so you
were going through sleepdeprivation at the same time
relating up up to your diagnosis, correct?

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, I worked shift work for 11 years as a
firefighter, 24 hour shifts, andsometimes I would get two hours
of sleep, sometimes 30 minutes,sometimes eight hours,
depending on the night.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
So we've got like multiple factors here.
So you've got childhood traumathat caused emotional
dysregulation and it's verycommon.
There's two clues actually fromyour childhood.
The fact that your dad gotdiagnosed with bipolar disorder
indicates that there's probablya genetic predisposition to
require higher levels ofmicronutrient support.
That's one of the things thatthe research shows, right?

(28:41):
The other thing is, is that whoknows what your father went
through in his childhood?
There's probablyintergenerational trauma, right,
there's trauma that's gettingpassed down through the
generation.
So if there was any kind oftrauma, you know issues with his
father or his mother or youknow his upbringing that could
have led to emotionaldysregulation for him and then
he passes that on to you becausehe you have a very unstable

(29:04):
childhood, probably a lot of youknow and it's it's interesting
this is not calling your dad outat all, but talking about.
You know, like you said, I wasthe same way with my kids.
I was emotionally and verballyabusive with my children because
I was not well.
So when my children were littleand I didn't do it on purpose,
like I was not consciouslythinking I'm going to, you know,

(29:24):
abuse my children.
I was trying to survive.
That you know.
This was my reality and sothat's.
That was your experience, youknow, with your wife and with
your children.
You were living in your realityand and um, so the, the alcohol
and the porn were copingmechanisms that your brain was
trying to find a way to makeitself feel better, to cope with

(29:44):
.
You know, numb or, and both ofthose are actually numbing
resources, and so when you wentin for help, instead of having
curiosity into the actual sourceof the symptoms there was, the
only thing that was done wastrying to treat the symptoms
with mind altering, psychotropicdrugs, right, and it's kind of

(30:06):
like a fever.
So if you, if somebody isrunning persistent fevers and
they go into the doctor and thedoctor says, oh, you've got
fever disorder, we're going togive you anti inflammatories to
bring the fever down for therest of your life, we'd look at
him like he was crazy, likeyou're no, like why do I have a
fever?
What's going on in my bodythat's causing a fever?
But we don't understand that.
That's the same thing formental illness.

(30:29):
When we're struggling withemotional dysregulation, when
our brains aren't functioning ina healthy way, there needs to
be curiosity about thoseunderlying sources of symptoms,
and I love what you said, travis, about how it was like you just
woke up and recognized that youwere living inside a delusion
for all those years and it's sohard to explain to other people

(30:49):
what that feels like.
It was funny that you had thisone of this very similar
delusion to one that Iexperienced on a regular basis.
I would have nightmares aboutmy husband cheating on me all
the time and I and I.
It felt very real and I was soinsecure and I was constantly
needing validation andreassurance from him, and that
gets old.
Like you get to the point whereyou're like, oh my gosh, like

(31:10):
stop saying that I love you.
I don't want to keep trying toprove to you that I love you.
I'm not interested in thatwoman at work.
I'm not interested.
You know I don't.
I did not do those things thatwere in your dream.
Like, please stop punishing mefor things that I didn't
actually.
So let's talk a little bitabout what it felt like to start

(31:33):
rethinking your what a dot,what the diagnosis actually
meant, because when you firstcame to me, you had actually
already started on keto, rightyes okay, so you had already
found chris palmer's stuff and I.
He has really great informationout there.
But one thing about that isit's just one little tiny piece
of the puzzle, it's not thewhole puzzle, right?

(31:54):
And so you were starting tohave some improvement, right?
Yes, if I remember correctlyI'm trying to remember it has
been about a year, I think soyou had found the keto.
You'd started on the keto whenyou first started in the program
, what you, what, what did itfeel like to have to be
rethinking it Like?

(32:15):
Was that hard to stop thinking?
Or was that kind of a relief?
Because I know, when I, whenyou, the way you talked about
the diagnosis, like you want to,you know there's something
wrong with you, and so there's alittle bit of relief, but also
some apprehension, thinking,okay, what does that mean?
Like, am I going to be sick forthe rest of my life?
Like, am I going to have theseproblems for the rest of my life

(32:35):
?
Or, you know, is there a way toactually make it better?
And you so?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat, about, like, what it felt
like initially and did you haveto come to grips with the
bipolar diagnosis?
And then what was it like whenthat paradigm was challenged?

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, sure I can.
I'd love to talk about that.
But I'd love to talk about oneother thing that you mentioned.
That's my father and childhoodLike and I think this is like
Sue and I were talking thismorning Not only does he have
issues with mood instability,like the experience I had in my
childhood, it was one where hespoke down to me all the time.
I don't remember I'm sure hesaid good things about me.

(33:14):
I don't remember him eversaying anything good about me.
I could list many, many badthings he said about me when I
was 18, like, fast forward, I'man 18 year old kid.
I go in a strip club with afriend and who's there?
My dad's there, still married,my mom they're.
They're now divorced, but notnot because of this, like they

(33:35):
got divorced later in life, andso now my dad and I are bonding
at a strip club and then he hasa conversation with me the next
day like, hey, you don't need totell your mom that, that's like
you know, she doesn't need toknow these things, and that's.
We were kind of bonding overthat.
So the the bar that my dad setfor me and I know this sounds so
weird, but pretty much I'm asuccessful husband.

(33:57):
I don't go to strip clubs and Idon't since, like since we've
been married or since we datedlike that.
I haven't done that, so that, sothat's.
My bar in life is if I'm ahusband that doesn't go to a
strip club.
I've been successful when Sue'sdad dad expresses love to her
mom in a very healthy way.
So I'm working off this bar andher dad has the bar up here and

(34:22):
that creates a like and weliterally just talked about that
, I think, yesterday.
It's like oh, my goodness, thisis like I know I need to
improve.
Don't get me wrong, I'm tryingto be a little funny to prove
the point that like it's mygoodness, this is like, like I
know I need to improve.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm trying to be a little funnyto prove the point that like
it's not just the moodinstability but it's the
behaviors that that created inmy father that made me think it

(34:43):
was normal to just constantlylook at your wife, because I
don't remember him sayinganything nice about my mom ever
like ever.
I don't remember him sayinganything nice about my mom ever
like ever.
So what was norm for me was formy dad to complain about my mom
in front of the kids and to her.
So that became my.
So I think there's thebiological piece, but also just

(35:03):
the kind of learned behavior.
It's like just what is caughtin your childhood.
So then your question like Iknew, probably before I was
diagnosed, I was like ready togo to a mental institution but
didn't want to because I hadkids.
And I think the same thinghappened while I was on meds.

(35:25):
I was at the point where I wasnot okay and I knew I wasn't
okay, like, very specificallylast July this is July of 2024,
july of 2023, I think it was the26th, 27th, 26th.
If I had a gun in my hand, Iwouldn't be here right now.
I had a very, very bad nightand that probably and I was on

(35:52):
the leave of absence from thefire department because I knew
that I could just tell I didn'tneed to be there.
I wasn't sure why or what.
I didn't realize it was thesleep deprivation and the stuff
that I was being exposed to thatwas increasing my mood
instability.
But that was a point where I waslike, oh my goodness,
something's got to change, Idon't know what.

(36:13):
And so then I started probablyin a hypomanic way Googling
everything I could to find outas much as I could about bipolar
, and eventually stumbled acrossyou.
And when I heard about TrueHope, when I heard that you've

(36:36):
been in your own True Hope andin remission, or whatever you
want to call it, not, you don'thave any symptoms of bipolar
disorder and you haven't for, Ithink, what 15 years, is that
right?

Speaker 3 (36:45):
Michelle, I started in 2010.
But it was over time, like it'sthat's.
It's a gradual process, healingall of the actual underlying
sources of the symptoms, right.
So once I got the medicationout of the way, that was what
opened the door to actually beable to do trauma processing and
mindfulness meditation all theother things that actually
healed the underlying sources ofthe symptoms Right.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yep.
So, and that's what gave,that's what gave, that's what
really gave me hope.
And we did, we, um, when I cameoff of Lamictal, I did EMDR
therapy.
Um, I'm in your Upsiders tribe.
You know it's not and I knowyou've already said this it's
not just taking a True Hopesupplement.
This is not a.
This isn't an easy.
I take a supplement and my lifeis great.

(37:30):
This is.
I take a supplement and itgives me a foundation so that I
can now do the other things tobecome the healthiest version of
myself, so that I can be abetter husband, a better father,
a better neighbor, just abetter person and, from a
selfish standpoint, a happyperson.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
I don't think that's selfish.
I think that's human nature,like we don't want to live in a
miserable existence, right no,and that's but the cancer
diagnosis.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
To switch back to that like sue and I are both
convinced, I'm convinced, if Iwas diagnosed with stage four um
, anything, stage four, pick thecancer when I was on the mictal
I would have said can it, canlike, can we make it a week?
You're saying months Can weshave it down to a week or maybe
even a couple of days?
Because I'm ready to go, Idon't want to deal with this.

(38:18):
So it's such a blessing that Ifound got stability, got on the
supplements, came off Lamictal,went through EMDR therapy and
started reprocessing a lot ofstuff, realized I've been living
a delusion and stopped livingthat delusion, stopped believing
that delusion completely beforegetting this diagnosis.

(38:39):
Because when I got thisdiagnosis I was like I want to
live, like, like I haven'twanted to live for long but, but
I want to live now, yeah.
And, and I'm going to doanything that I can to be here,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
Well, and one of the things I want to talk a little
bit about is, a lot of times Idon't know if you experienced
this I'm going to ask you thisquestion.
I'll share my experience.
It felt like it was an excuse,like I didn't like it.
I didn't like the behavior thatthat I was, you know,
especially like when I wouldhave the bipolar rage and I

(39:16):
would have, or you know,horrible outbursts with my
children.
I felt terrible about it.
But at the same time, there waslike this part of me that and
even the doctors and mytherapist sometimes would say
well, it's not your fault.
And so there was part of itthat was like like I can't help
it.
I, you know, it's just, I'mdoing the best that I can, but I
can't help it.
This is just, you know, myillness.
So there's there's a little bitof Justification and kind of

(39:41):
victimhood that goes along withthe diagnosis and an expectation
that everybody else just has tolearn how to deal with it,
because you're doing the bestyou can, you can't help it Right
.
Everybody else just has tolearn how to deal with it.
Because you're doing the bestyou can, you can't help it right
.
But there's also a part of youand I think that this is
something that I've seen in you,travis is that it's not really
their fault either.
Just because it's not my faultdoesn't mean that it's their
fault and they shouldn't have todeal with the consequences.

(40:05):
And I feel like you say thatit's selfish.
But I've seen in you a desireto live better for your wife.
You want to preserve yourmarriage.
You want to be a healthyhusband for your wife.
You want to be a healthy dadfor your children, and that has
been something that has drivenmy recovery as well is my desire
to be the wife that I feel likemy husband deserves and the

(40:27):
mother that my children deserve.
So do you feel like there hasbeen any adjustment in the way
that you think about the motherthat my children deserve?
So, was there.
Do you feel like there has beenany adjustment in your, in the
way that you think about that,over this past year?
Because did you experience thatFirst of all?
Was there, you know, any kindof victimhood mentality while
you were living with thediagnosis and traditional
treatment, and was there anyshift in the way that you had
you looked at things after that?

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Sue's laughing to the point.
I think maybe she should answerthe question.
I'd love to hear herperspective first, then I'll
give you mine.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
But there still is.
There still is.
We had an hour longconversation yesterday where
he's still like I want to bebetter, I just don't know how,
and it's very overwhelming.
So I would say there's stillthat you know.
Well, you know, can't you justchange?
You know, even today the wordscame out of his mouth, you know

(41:21):
what I prefer, and still you'rechoosing to do something
different.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
And I'm like oh, really, yeah, Wow.
And it's so weird because that'slike I think and Sue, like she
can, clearly will agree ordisagree with me during this
podcast, which is fine Like Ithink that's a new thing.

(41:46):
Over like the past week as Ihave I'm eating a lot of carbs,
I'm not on supplements I didn'thave energy to go walk, like I'm
just now getting to where Ifeel like I could actually go
out for a walk and it not wipeme out, yeah, so I feel like the
things that Sue's saying arethings that have just kind of,

(42:11):
let's just say, the past sevendays have kind of slowly crept
back, I mean even like.
As she says that, I'm like, ohmy gosh, I was.
That wasn't a nice thing to say, but at the time it felt like
the right thing to say.
And when I say that that's like, like, and I said it, and I
haven't even given any secondthought until she just said it,

(42:33):
and now I'm like oh, wow, I amso sorry that I said that to you
like, but that's but so here'shere's.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
The thing, though, is that I experienced this myself
and I, and it's something that I.
I think this is one of thereasons why being in a group
like ours is so beneficial,because, inside having an
illness, it's inside your head.
It colors your perception ofeverything, it colors the entire
way you see the world andinteract with everybody else,
and when people would say thingslike, oh, it's all in your head

(43:03):
, I'm like, yeah, it is.
Like exactly, it is all in myhead, Like this is my reality,
this is what I'm living through,and so it takes time.
You know we've talked aboutthis before that our brains
automatically default to the rutthat we've lived in for, you
know, 20 years or whatever,which is, you know, the kind of
this victim mentality, this ideathat other people need to shift

(43:25):
to accommodate what we'restruggling with, and and I don't
mean that in a judgmental way,you know, but it's something
that takes work.
It takes effort to think okay,all right, Like.
One of the things that we'vetalked about in the mood cycle
survival guide is is what areyour partners?
So let's talk.
I want to talk a little bitabout that, actually, because
that whole, the whole purpose ofthat guide is to take learn how

(43:48):
to take responsibility foryourself.
Right, it's identifying whatkind of assistance you need, how
to set healthy boundariesaround that assistance, who are
the people that you can ask forthat help you know.
Learning how to identify thesymptoms and recognize them as
symptoms.
And learning how to manage youremotional resources and and

(44:08):
what you can do to get back intoa healthy, balanced mental
state.
Right, and when we firstintroduced that, it's really
interesting actually to watchyou go through the evolution of
developing that guide foryourself, Because you do it at
the beginning and then you kindof set it down and kind of
forget about it, and so when wewould talk, you know you would
be talking about issues and I'mlike, okay, this is where the
guide works, Like this is whereyou use the guy, this is how you

(44:30):
apply this here.
And and the other thing that Iwe saw.
So I want to talk, I want toTravis, to talk a little bit
about what that was like tostart shifting, the way that you
saw, things like starting torecognize okay.
So I, this is a symptom and Iit's not okay for me to do this.
So how am I going to do thingsdifferently, Starting to
recognize the symptoms for whatthey were.
And then also, Sue, I wouldlove to hear talk to you because

(44:54):
there were some unhealthypatterns in your behavior.
As a coping mechanism, you know,you were in survival mode and
learning how to set healthierboundaries in your relationship
so that you didn't sacrificeyourself in an effort to help
your husband, Right?
So let's start.
Let's start with you, Travis,and talk about what that shift
was like.
It has been like because it'sstill ongoing.

(45:15):
It takes time to change the waythat we think about things and
interact with things.
It's very easy to fall backinto those old patterns, right?
So what was that?
If you can talk about that orthink about what that experience
was, and then Sue will talkabout your side of this.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Well, I think it's like I've always been somebody
in general who takesresponsibility for things.
Like if things aren't goingright, I'll take.
Like OK, that's my fault, I'llfix it, even if it's not.
Like that's just my default.
Like if it's someone else'sfault and the ball's been
dropped, hey, whatever my faultthat it didn't get done, let me

(46:01):
just take care of it.
So I have, I would say I've andthis is going to sound
contradictory, but I, I've ownedthe journey as my personal
responsibility.
Like if I say to sue, youshould know that, whatever I
said, that she said a second ago, like I said that today it's my
responsibility to be self-awareand not say those things.
Unfortunately, or fortunately,I realize that's not just a flip

(46:22):
of a switch, that's just not.
It's my responsibility.
And now I'm never going to doit again because I'm aware.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
Wouldn't that be nice .

Speaker 2 (46:30):
It's like, well, yes, that's my responsibility.
In the way that I've interactedfor 19 years is a mental
superhighway of interaction thatI need to reprogram, and you
know, this is my normal behavior.
I need to reprogram somebehavior over here and create a

(46:51):
super mental highway this way,and that's going to take a while
to do and there's going to betimes I'm going to jump back on
that mental highway and tell herthat she should know that that
we've been married for 19 years.
What do you mean?
Why are you asking me thisquestion?
Like, what is your problem?
This is your fault.
And then realize like, oh, mygoodness, I'm sorry, try not to

(47:11):
use any language in this podcast.
I'm sorry.
I was a jack-a to you thismorning when I said that,
because I do own it and I'vereally always owned it to the

(47:33):
extent that I had the mentalcapability or mental capacity.
I've always been like this ismy fault.
I may not say that in themoment, but even when I was on
the mictal or unmedicated and Iwould just rage on Sue and yell
at her or whatever the case maybe, at some point I would come
out of that and I would say I'mso sorry, it is me, this is not,
would say I'm so sorry.
Like it is me, this is not you,I'm so sorry.

(47:54):
So I've I've kind of alwaysknown this is my responsibility.
I think the challenge is isgetting is, just realizing that
it's not going to be animmediate change, and not to
beat yourself up in the process.
Just yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
Well, one thing that I'd like I want to just
interject here, because this issomething we have this idea that
once we know something, we havea responsibility to stop it
right.
And so when we don't, when wedefault to old behaviors, old
patterns and stuff like that, webeat ourselves up and we feel
guilty about it and we feelashamed and that.
And I still, I'll still default.

(48:32):
I've been doing this for 15years.
I will still default to oldpatterns, like I have,
especially with my daughter, myoldest daughter.
We trigger each other big time,but poor kid is like.
I've been trying really hard tohelp her through the healing
process but she'll say thingsthat trigger me and I'll say
things that I don't mean.
But I started recognizing thatawareness is progress.

(48:56):
So the fact that I'm aware thatI've done something or said
something that I should not havedone or said, and I immediately
say sorry and like and ourthing is can I have a do over?
And thankfully she's gotten toa point where she's like Okay,
yeah, I'll let you have a doover.
It took a long time for her totrust me enough to say yes, and
so it just is a.
It's a relationship patternthat has to evolve and trust

(49:20):
develops as you start beingaware and apologizing, and
sincerely apologizing, and we goa long time, long periods of
time now without these kinds oflike issues, but every once in a
while it'll crop up again.
But I'm aware of it now and I'mlike, oh, I did that wrong, I'm
so sorry, that was bad, my bad.
Can I have a do-over?
And so I just want to encourageyou, travis, because it's a

(49:45):
really challenging thing, toreroute all of that and to
relearn how to interact, how tostop.
We're starting the mindfulnessmodule coming January, and
that's a huge game changerbecause you start to have a
filter.
I had no filter before.
The thoughts would come and itwas like the thoughts came right
out of my mouth.

(50:06):
There was no buffer zone, therewas no thinking about things,
and that mindfulness meditationcreated that space for me to
actually evaluate.
Like, is that a thought I wantto express out loud?
Or, you know, sometimes they'reinside thoughts, not outside
thoughts, right?
So so, sue, let's, let's talk alittle bit about the spouse's

(50:26):
perspective.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
It's been really interesting having him in his
stable place yeah and then likebeing on the slope down and we
talked a lot about it yesterdayand like I tend to do.
Well, one of the biggest thingsis is, when I'm under stress, I
want to be by myself.

(50:51):
Well, one of the biggest thingsis, when I'm under stress, I
want to be by myself.
I'm like, I'm done, I'm caving.
When he's under stress, hewants to be together.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
And so then the fact that's a great combination.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
It's a fantastic combination and we talked about
yesterday and I finally justlooked at him and I said I'm not
going anywhere until you'remean.
And as soon as you're mean, Iwant to run.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
I just want to run and I think just even being able
to voice that Is is a majorthing.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yeah, and I think it is important that.
Back to the analogy, and sorryto interrupt, but I just think
this is important for anybodylistening Like my version of not
me.
Back to my analogy with my bardown here is I didn't go to the
strip club, so I'm not me, yeah,and her version.
So, even though I mean I thinkI'm being mean, it doesn't
matter what I think.
Yeah, what matters is herperception of what I'm saying or

(51:47):
doing, which is probably theperception of most people
walking around that if they sawme interact that way, they'd be
like, yeah, that wasn't realnice to your wife.
And I'm like okay, I didn'trealize that.
So sorry to interrupt, I justthink that's important.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Oh, it's okay.
Yeah, so I think you know, oneof my biggest things is being
able to find my voice again andnot be so afraid.
Because when you live withsomebody who is triggered on the
regular, I mean I would say thefirst six months of this year,
a solid four months of that,like not every single day, but

(52:22):
like I would say, you know,solid 60 to 80% of that time was
him deciding every day if hewas going to live or not, and
that creates a lot of anger.
And when the anger comes, Iwant to avoid the anger.
I don't want to deal with anger, I just want to run.

(52:42):
And not only do I want to run,I want to protect my kids.
I don't want them to have toexperience that.
And so you really helped me alot saying no, you've got to
start speaking up, you've got tostart, you've got to find your
voice.
And you know another thing thatI think happens.
And so if you are a spouse orif somebody significant in your

(53:05):
life, you know it's like I.
He would say what kind of needsdo you have?
I'm like I don't have any needs.
I do not have space in my lifefor needs.
I didn't because he had so manyand it wasn't until he started
cross titrating off of True HopeI mean on to True Hope, off of

(53:25):
Lamictal, that things.
Finally, we had some stableenough days where I could start
seeking therapy and going okay.
Now that I'm not in flight, orflight today, how do I deal with
this?
How do I, you know, how do Inot live in survival mode when

(53:50):
I'm in a relationship withsomebody who is daily unstable?

Speaker 3 (53:54):
Yeah, well, and one of the things that I love I've
loved working with the two ofyou together is that you both
love each other dearly and youboth are very supportive of each
other, but you're also andyou're also both ready to take
responsibility for yourself, andit's and that looks.
You know, setting healthyboundaries looks different on

(54:14):
each side.
And you're you're you sayingthat you didn't know how to
express needs anymore.
You didn't know how to evenhave needs anymore.
That was very.
That was exactly the same thingthat happened with my husband.
You know it was.
I was this geeky will that wasalways getting the oil.
I had no problem expressing myneeds.
I expressed them regularly,like I'm like I need this and I
need this and you need to dothis for me, and blah, you know

(54:35):
I was going to therapy and I wasgoing to the doctor and I was
doing all the things and myhusband was just hanging on for
dear life Like he never knewwhat, what, who, who he was
going to wake up to.
He never knew what was going to.
You know what was going tohappen.
And he got to the point wherehe just he doesn't.
He didn't even know how toexpress needs.
You know it was our therapist.
We were in marriage counselinga few years back and the

(54:58):
therapist was the one who, like,started asking him and he got
super uncomfortable.
You know she's like Well, whatdo you need, scott?
You know I'm good, I'm.
You know he just kept sayingno-transcript, anger and

(55:43):
resentment and frustration andall these negative feelings, and
you don't know why they'rethere.
You don't know why.
You know my, for my husband itjust became an emotional wall
between the two of us, likethere just was a wall that went
up and there was no.
It was a very difficult toconnect with each other because
he couldn't figure out how toput the wall down and I couldn't
get around it Right and so, um.
So I want to talk a little bitabout you taught.
You mentioned both of youtalked about the cross titration

(56:05):
experience.
I would like to talk about thata little bit.
One of the things that we do inthe program is we start with
the mood cycle survival guide,and that has to happen first
Because you have to startrecognizing how do I identify
symptoms?
You know, how do I?
You have to start being able toidentify symptoms.
Who are the people I can askfor help.
What are the healthy boundariesaround that assistance Right

(56:25):
yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
I'm really glad that in your mood cycle survival
guide it includes who can Ireach out to, because the spouse
cannot be the only person.
It's way too heavy, and youknow, for me to have people that
I can reach out to and say, hey, travis is not okay, can you
please reach out to?

Speaker 2 (56:47):
him.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
You know we need help .
That is huge, so thank you forincluding that.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
Well, and one of the things that I think is it I had
to recognize is how do I createhealthy boundaries around that
assistance?
Because if you're constantlyreaching out to people only when
you're in crisis, you burnthose bridges Like people will
be like don't answer that call,like we can't talk to that
person.
They're only calling me whenthey're in crisis and I can't.
I just don't have the bandwidthfor it anymore.

(57:16):
And so, learning how toidentify a group of people and
even even with your therapistand your doctor, like what is
their role?
What is it that I talked tothem?
You know, when do I reach outto that person?
And and then also starting torecognize what are actually,
what are the symptoms, and I,you know that's one thing that

(57:37):
we talked about.
When you're going through crosstitration A lot of people don't
it feels very scary.
When I went through it, I hadno idea what was going on, so it
was just like white knucklingit through the process you know
it was I had no idea what washappening.
Every time I would start toexperience symptoms, I'd freak
out and think, ah, it's notworking anymore.
You know, and and I call truehope, that was the only person.
You know only people I had tocall and they were like okay, no

(57:58):
, this is over medication, no,this is med withdrawal.
You know they would be able totell me, but this is one of the
things that I love about helpingother people is I can tell you
okay, this is, this is whatyou're going through when you go
through over.
When you experienced overmedication for you, you got
agitated and fatigued.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Um.
I can't remember Maybe I wasn'tvery irritable, very agitated
and irritable.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
Yeah, yeah and so.
So you would go through thatand then, then it took the first
couple of times, if I remembercorrectly, you weren't calling
True Hope, you were justsuffering.
And I would talk to you and I'dbe like, oh, travis, call True
Hope, this is our medication,because they feel so normal.
The symptoms feel normal, thatis, even though they're

(58:45):
uncomfortable, even thoughpeople are suffering.
That's the way that you're usedto, you're used to living that
way, and so it's really hard torecognize this.
These are symptoms and so,recognizing, you're experiencing
over medication now.
So, as soon as you started, wetalked about that.
And after the first coupletimes, as soon as you started
feeling that I'm like, as soonas you experience that, call

(59:06):
true hope.
This is ever medication, thisis what your brain does when
it's over medicated.
And then we figured out thetiming.
For once you titrated down fromthe medication.
You know, once you went down alittle bit, how long did that
withdrawal experience last?
And I think for you it wasabout 72 hours.
Is that correct?
Yeah, and so what we did wasyou.

(59:27):
We developed a plan.
You developed a plan for whatyou were going to do for that
time, so that you minimized theimpact on your family.
So do you want to talk a littlebit about what that, what that
experience was like and how didyou?
I want to hear from travis andsue about that.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
you know changes that you experienced in that sure,
um, I would say during that,when we I think what brought it
to kind of a point where like oh, my goodness, goodness, we've
got to have a plan, is I was inthe 72-hour window of being not
stable, very irritable, just nota fun person to be around, like

(01:00:05):
a dog barking could set me offlike in a bad way.
We had some friends in townfrom out of town that came to
church and Sue invited them tocome back to our house and bring
their kids.
Because I've always like webought a house with an in-ground
pool and I've always said likeI don't like am I going to get

(01:00:25):
in?
Sure, I just want kids to comeover to our house and have fun.
So in Sue's mind she's like letme help track.
And in my sick, sick, notregulated mind I'm like she not
like what, what she just saidearlier.
In my mind, even though Ihaven't said it, I'm like she
knows this is a bad idea, butshe did it anyhow, like, and I

(01:00:48):
left our house like with themleft, didn't say bye, I just
said to her I'm leaving, I can'tdeal with this.
I'm going to the beach becausewe don't live on the ocean but
we live like a 10-minute drivefrom the beach.
So I'm going to the beach.
Call me when everybody's gone,I don't care what time it is and
I will admit it like I'm nottelling you to kick them out,

(01:01:08):
I'm just it.
I'm not telling you to kickthem out, I'm just telling you
I'm leaving.
I can't deal with these sevenkids running around our house
and these four adults that I'mfriends with, but right now I
don't want to speak to them, I'mjust leaving, and I think we
talked to you about that.
And that was when it's likewait a minute, this is you guys

(01:01:29):
need to see that Travis getsover-medicated about every two
weeks.
And then you bring the Lamictaldown the amount that True Hope
said, which was 50 milligrams ata time with me, which I could
be completely different withsomeone else and there's about a
72-hour window where I'm justan irritable, challenging to

(01:01:52):
deal with or live with person.
And part of the plan was if Suewanted to have people over
because that's something thatshe always enjoys and something
that I enjoy most of the time,but not always Then okay, then
Sue just knew that if she hadsomeone over during that 72 hour
window, it meant I was notgoing to be home.
And once we kind of had thatplan that gave Sue the freedom

(01:02:17):
to do what she wants to do, butkind of with the knowledge that,
like hey, if people come over,travis, just let Travis know up
front.
Like hey, people are comingover so that I can leave prior
to them getting here and just begone and go walk on the beach
and try to stay in my happyspace.
And part of the plan evenbecame like, just during that
three day period, like whateverresponsibilities I had, just

(01:02:42):
they went to the side and weworked I can't think of the
correct term, michelle, but thepower priorities, power
priorities, like we have powerpriorities, which is pretty much
making sure that I'm eatinghealthy.
yeah, that was my responsibilityduring that three days.
Everything else just there waslike zero expectations of me
during that time, because ifthere was expectations I was

(01:03:03):
going to screw them up anyhow.
So it was just best to have, um, to have no or very, very
minimal expectations for thatthree days, and then I would
stabilize and I'd be good forabout another two weeks.

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):
So once you help us kind of create that plan, which
was just that I go down to powerpriorities and whatever's on my
schedule gets cleared so that Ihave no responsibilities during
that time, yeah, I think, if Iremember correctly, also, that
we talked a little bit abouthaving somebody else, like a man
, that you could talk to, right,so that it wasn't all on your

(01:03:41):
wife to support you through thatthat if you were feeling this
agitation you needed to vent ortalk or something.
You were going to have a buddythat you designated.
That was somebody that wasgoing to be on your team.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Is that?
Am I remembering that right?
Yeah, you are, and it's funnythat you said michelle, because
I'm meeting with with two peopleon that list tomorrow.
One of them just texted me backI saw that and he's somebody
that knows, like he knows thedelusion I lived.
He knows there's no, but bothof the guys I'm meeting with
tomorrow have there.
There's no secrets I have withthem.
They know everything.
And I reached out to them thismorning because I'm like, wait a

(01:04:16):
minute, this is not actuallyone of them.
He and I have beencommunicating for a week now and
it just happens to be thatwe're getting together tomorrow.
The other one I reached out tothis morning because I'm like
I'm starting to believe adelusion that I know is not real
.

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
I need to reach out.
Okay, I can't control.
I can't control what I'm eatingright now in a healthy way.
I can't take true hopesupplements.
Okay, what else is in my moodcycle Survival guide?
Reach out to a network ofpeople like do like now that I'm
starting to get some energy andgo for a walk tomorrow, like do

(01:04:54):
things so that.
So that's part of the moodcycle survival guide.
Um, and it's just funny, thepeople, um, two of the people on
that list that are people thatlike know everything about me
I'm meeting with tomorrow, kindof like real world example right
now, to help deal with symptomsthat have presented themselves,
given the cancer battle thatI'm fighting and how that's

(01:05:18):
caused me to have to almost putmy mental wellness journey not
on pause, but kind of cause.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
It's lower on the priority list than than like
physically surviving, like yourbody.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So, but part of that too isokay.
How do I best manage?
Like the last thing it like I'm, I'm scared, yeah, to die in a
manic place.
Like I don't want to.
I don't want the cancer journeyto cause me not to be able to

(01:05:58):
manage my illness.
Excuse me in a way where I'mnot a good husband and then.
I die Like I want to I guesspart of the cancer journey like
I, just I want to live well.
I want to be a good husband, agood father, a good friend,
regardless of what I've gotgoing on, and that I don't know

(01:06:22):
why that just hit me like sosuddenly, but it's like I don't,
probably because I'm liketoday's the first day I can tell
you I've had the like.
Holy crap, I'm beginning to feellike this delusion is real and
I know it's not and I don't want, I don't want To die and I

(01:06:44):
don't want to die, havingexpressed that on the last day
on earth and when I say that Idon't like part of the cancer
journey too is just realizinglike we're all going to die.
And I know that seems sological, like everybody knows
that until you're, like, reallyfaced with your own mortality

(01:07:05):
the way I've been, I think mostof us think that we're going to
die when we're 102 years old,after seeing our great grandkids
born.
It's going to be an amazing day.
I'm going to die at threeo'clock in the morning, um, in
our sleep, peacefully and like,even though I worked a job where
I knew that wasn't true, like Ididn't really know that that

(01:07:28):
applied to me too, and beingfaced with my mortality.
I don't want to have a badinteraction with Sue based off
of me believing a delusion andleave my house and die in a car
wreck.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Yeah, really quick, sue.
Before you I want to hear youranswer about the Mood Cycle
Survival Guide.
But since you brought this upagain, travis, I want to address
it really quickly and I thinkthat it's.
I hope it's okay that I do thison the podcast because I feel
like it's beneficial to theaudience as well.
But one of the things you saidthat you have an appointment
coming up with your therapistand you do not just EMDR but you

(01:08:03):
do, you do IFS, internal familysystems, informed EMDR and and
I think it'll be reallybeneficial to bring this
delusion up in the therapysession because there's a
protector part, there issomething in your, in your
experience, in your mind, thatis trying to protect you.

(01:08:24):
There is something that itsenses as danger and I think
being forced faced with your ownmortality is making you feel
less secure, right.
So you're, there is someinsecurity that's coming into
your life right now and thisprotector part, developed
probably in your childhood, thatis, is trying to protect you
and is saying, saying you're,you know there's danger here,

(01:08:44):
there's danger here and sue'sdanger here and Sue's going to
leave you and you know like, soI'm really thrilled that I know
this is.
I'm not thrilled that you'rehaving this delusion again, but
I'm thrilled that you're in thisspace, because I think that
you're actually going to be ableto make some progress on
figuring out what the actualunderlying source of that
delusion is.
It's not.
I think the fact that yourbrain is not getting what it

(01:09:06):
needs to function in a healthyway is contributing to it, but
it is not the source.
It is not the source of thedelusion.
The source of the delusion is aprotector part in your mind
that is stepping in to do a jobthat doesn't belong to it, and
so, as you work with yourtherapist, it's going to be
really interesting for you to beable to actually get to the

(01:09:26):
root of what, why thatprotective part developed in
your brain, right, yes, yep, andI'm excited.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
But it's funny you say that because there's two
therapists that that I work with, that both of both of us have
worked with.
One of them does ifs informedemdr, and that therapist has
helped me break free from thedelusion that I live under, more
so than the other therapist.
The other therapist doescognitive behavioral therapy,

(01:09:53):
which is great, and I reallyfeel like if I hadn't like I've
been seeing that therapist since2015, have a great relationship
with him and I feel like heprobably built a foundation that
allowed the IFS informed EMDRtherapist to springboard from
that and help me break free fromthe delusion.
But, sue, this morning, whenshe said, are you going to reach

(01:10:13):
out to Kevin?
I just said I talked to himwith this delusion for nine
years and I would walk in hisoffice with the delusion and I
would leave with the delusionand I will have just decided to
stop arguing with him, like no,I've got to talk to Jennifer.
Yeah, now with this delusion,like Kevin can help with other

(01:10:34):
things.
So, and I think that'simportant too, knowing there's
different modalities and tryingdifferent modalities and even
now I still see Kevin is verybeneficial now today.
Yeah, just not with thedelusion piece of it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
Well, because that part resides in your
subconscious mind.
Anytime our conscious mind andour subconscious mind fight,
it's not a fair fight, becausethe subconscious mind will
always win, the subconsciousmind will always win, and so
it's so important to get to whatis happening in the
subconscious mind.
Why is it sensing danger?
And what is happening in thesubconscious mind?
Why is it sensing danger?
And what is it in your life, inyour experience, in your

(01:11:11):
childhood, in your youth, inyour young adult years?
What is it that caused thatpart to develop?
Something triggered thatdevelopment of that part, and
that's why it's so important forus to not call these label
these things as bipolar disorder, depression or anxiety, because
it is.
It is taking the power awayfrom you and taking away your

(01:11:33):
ability to actually do anythingabout it.
It's making you feel like youhave this medical condition that
you don't have any control over, and that's not true.
If you go to, you know you'redoing the work.
You're putting forth the effortto figure out what is actually
causing this symptom to occur.
Why do I have this delusion?

(01:11:54):
It is not some kind of you knowmedical condition that I don't
have any control over.
There is a reason.
My brain was trying to protectme.
It developed this protectivepart, and so now I need to go in
and actually do the part, dothe work to tell my, you know,
help my mind, resolve whateverthe trauma was that developed
that protector part, and thenthe symptom will go away.
It won't.
It'll know that it doesn't needto do that job anymore, you

(01:12:14):
know.
So I'm actually kind of notexcited.
This sounds like a madscientist kind of thing, like
I'm so excited to say, but I'm.
I'm looking forward to toseeing how that plays out for
you, travis, because you're in abetter place now.
One of the things that's reallychallenging with the
psychotropic drugs is that itdisrupts the normal function of
your brain and it makes it verydifficult to process emotions in

(01:12:37):
a healthy way, and so that'swhy it can be very difficult to
do proactive and effectivetherapy when you are on drugs,
because your brain is notprocessing more emotions in a
normal way anymore.
And so now that you're, eventhough you're in this really
rough place where your brain,you know your body's fighting
for survival, your brain is atleast not mucked up by the

(01:12:58):
medication, right, and so nowyou can actually go in and
actually process these emotionsin a healthy way, so I'm I feel
very hopeful about that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
No, and I'm hopeful too.
And just to speak to what youjust said for listeners, like
when I was on Lamictal, I spentnine years in and out of
therapists, knowing that,knowing that I had a delusion,
just didn't know like the extentof it, if that makes sense and
I wanted it gone.
It's not like I was in denialLike this is.
I didn't know the extent of it,if that makes sense and I
wanted it gone.
It's not like I was in denial.

(01:13:30):
I didn't think, oh my goodness,I'm not living a delusion.
I knew deep down that the lensthat I had, that she wanted to
be married to someone else, wasnot true.
I knew deep down that wasn'ttrue and I wanted it gone.
And I worked for nine years.
We spent tens of thousands ofdollars with therapists wanting

(01:13:51):
that gone and once I came off ofLamictal like it was gone
within a week.
And that was with therapy, notjust because I had also started
with a therapist as we werecoming off Lamictal towards the
end of that, coming off a mictaltowards the end of that.
So, but combining the righttherapist modality with not

(01:14:11):
being on medication, because welearned, I think, through you
and through others, includingthe nurse practitioner.
The nurse practitioner thatmanaged my medication is the
psychotropic medications kind oflock thought patterns in place
and makes it where, like thisdelusion that I had was just
like.
It was like locked in my brainand there was nothing that was

(01:14:33):
going to unlock it and let itfree until we got the medication
out of my system and that kindof is what at least unlocked it.
And then the therapy is whatkind of?
Set me free from that?
And I say, set me free from thedelusion.
Clearly I'm not completely freefrom that.
And I say set me free from thedelusion, clearly I'm not
completely free from it.
So I'm sure we'll get toprocess that and figure out.
I mean, just what you said,just like what part of me is

(01:14:55):
showing up?
What is it trying to protect?

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
Like it's trying to help me somehow.
So what is it?
Where is it trying to help me?
So we can figure out how tohelp me in a different way and
let that part know that.
Hey, I'm OK, you don't need toshow up, at least not right now.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, sue.
So what is your?
What was your experience likeas you?
You talked a little bit abouthow much you appreciated being
not the only one up on you knowto to support him, how much you
appreciated being not the onlyone up on you know to to support
him.
But what was it like likeactually being able to see him
starting to see, like okay,here's the pattern, you know.

(01:15:35):
Did it change your relationshipat all?
Like, did it help you feel moreconfident that things are
actually going to improve?
Like tell me what yourexperience was as he started.
Like utilizing that mood cyclesurvival guide and recognizing
symptoms and coming up with aplan to deal with them.
That didn't involve you all thetime.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
I'm very grateful for that.
I mean, it's a.
It is a lot of weight to carry.
It's so heavy and you know,it's not only the weight of
being the only one that he wantsto talk to, but it's also I
have children, they haveemotional needs.
I need to make sure I've gotcapacity for that, you know, and

(01:16:17):
work and that type of thing.
So, just like from a capacityissue, it was very helpful and
made things seem not as heavywhen he started the cross
titration.
That was interesting because hecould say one sentence and

(01:16:38):
immediately I knew that thingswere bad, things were about to
get bad and like there's two orthree things that if he says
those I'm like okay, that'sthat's total red flag.
And one of them was I am tryingto help you.
If he says I am trying to helpyou, that means he is feeling

(01:16:59):
insecure and he is.
You know that's that's a hugescream I am insecure right now.
And if I say I don't want help,then he goes.
You know, on the rant about Iam trying to be helpful to you,
you know, then it's a rant thatcomes.
So it was great to be able tojust look at him and say I think

(01:17:25):
it's time to call true hope,yeah.
Just look at him and say Ithink it's time to call true
hope.
Yeah, yeah, it's time to calltrue hope is less scary to say
then.
Okay, you are completelyovermedicated.

Speaker 3 (01:17:38):
Right, because it's it's really hard.
I think we talked about this alittle bit.
I, my husband and I, had tocome up with a way for him to
approach me that I wasn't goingto bite his head off.
You know I would ask him.
You know you can see thingsthat I can't, can you let me
know?
And the first few times that hedid that, I was like you know,
and he's like I'm not doing thatagain, that's a trap, like I am

(01:18:00):
not going to help you, you'reon your own sister.
And but I but I startedrecognizing okay, I know my
husband loves me and I know he'strying to help and so you know,
he would say we came up for him, for us, we would.
He would say, um, I'm seeingsomething, are you open to
hearing it?
And I had to tell myself therewere times when my I could feel

(01:18:21):
my chest get tight and I'd feelmy defenses go up and I'd be
like oh, you see something, doyou?
But but I, but I, I had to,like I had to learn how to say
okay, I know he loves me, I'veasked for this help, I need to
be okay with this.
And there were times when I'mlike Nope, I'm not in good place
to hear that right now.
And he'd be like, all right,I'm walking away, then Like I'm
not staying for this.

(01:18:41):
And then there were times whenI'd be like, okay, I'm ready to
hear, I want to hear what it is.
And it was so helpful to beable to have because he could
see things like you were saying.
He could see things that Icouldn't see.
And it was so helpful to beable to get because he usually
saw things way earlier than Idid.
At some time.
I usually was in like massivecrisis before I recognize that

(01:19:03):
I'm not doing great, you know,but he could see like warning
signs.
You know, if I started havingbig ideas, if I was like wanting
to add a bunch of stuff to myyou know my schedule because I
was I was just feeling good,like I'm like I'm good, I'm like
I'm super productive, and he'dbe like, ah, this is, this is
not bode well for our nextcouple of weeks, right, Um, so,

(01:19:28):
oh, man, I want to just keep.
I Travis you probably, right, Ithink I'm going to have to do
another session with you guys.
I think I'm going to have to doa section in like one just with
Sue by herself so that we canget from spouse's perspective.
But, um, so I guess maybe thethe thing that we'll finish with
today is, if there's somebodyout there that's listening to

(01:19:48):
this, has been nervous about,like, maybe trying this because
there's so much of ourconditioning that's led us to
believe that this is a medicalcondition.
When you get diagnosed withbipolar, you have a medical
condition.
You need medication.
And even though we don't feelbetter on medication I did not
ever feel better on medicationthere's, like I don't know if
it's a placebo effect orsomething it's there's some part
of our brain that ispsychologically dependent on the

(01:20:11):
medication.
There's a psychologicaldependence, thinking I need that
.
The doctor told me I need thatIf I stop taking it, things are
going to get so much worse, eventhough it's hard to imagine
them getting worse, like it'shard to imagine things getting
worse than wanting to go to thehospital and feeling like you
need to end your life right.
But we are so conditioned tobelieve that it's a medical
condition.
We don't have any control.
We'll have it for the rest ofour lives.

(01:20:32):
We have to have medication.
What would you say to somebodywho is, like, feeling hopeless?
They're feeling like the bestI'm going to ever be able to
expect out of my life is justlearning how to suffer.
Well with this.
What would you say to them?
What?

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
would you say to them ?
I would say there is hope.
I would say find a psychiatristthat will support you, which I
know could be challenged to ownit yourself and get that.
If your psychiatrist doesn'tsupport you coming off of meds
and going on to True Hope thatthere is a psychiatrist in your

(01:21:07):
town that would support that,you just may have to go through
six or seven or eight or not.
You may have to go through alot of psychiatrists or whoever
manages your meds in order to dothat.
I would also say Google TrueHope, go to their website.
It was started by a psychiatristthat experienced a tremendous

(01:21:28):
amount of loss.
I know that there's a podcastepisode with them.
There's a lot of hope, but partof it is you have to own your
journey.
You have to understand thatyour choices and your actions
have gotten you to where you areand that if you don't change
them, they're going to keepgetting you back to the same

(01:21:49):
place.
So join the tribe.
It's whatever, however much itis I don't know.
Michelle should charge more forit than she does.
So join the tribe.
That's a great first step.
And then there is hope.
Find a psychiatrist that willsupport you coming off of

(01:22:10):
medication.
I promise you can do it.
And then research, um true hope, and start, start the process
after creating your mood cycle,survival guide, after, after
doing the homework, after owningthat, knowing that it's going
to be rough, coming off the medsand setting up a foundation so
that you can successfully dothat.

(01:22:30):
I feel like I've said it likethree times, but I promise you
there is hope.
There is hope for a better life.
It really does exist.
So just believe that and takethe next step, which is join the
Upsiders tribe.
And Michelle did not ask us tosay that, has not asked me to
say that, she did not ask us tobe interviewed.

(01:22:51):
We asked her if we could dothis in hopes that it does help
somebody.
So, first step join theUpsiders tribe.
Second step find whoever it isthat manages your medications.
If they support you coming offof those, great.
If they don't, great.
And Michelle, I'm sure, couldget into more details.
That's probably going to bechallenging, because a

(01:23:11):
psychiatrist that says, yes, youcan come off meds and then if
there's something bad thathappens, they could be held
liable for that in certainplaces, I'm sure.
So a psychiatrist is going tobe scared to say, yes, you can
come off of meds, even thoughthe meds they have you on,
there's a chance.
Those meds cause suicide, causesome pretty bad things, but the

(01:23:36):
psychiatrist isn't liable,because all those side effects
are disclosed in whateverpamphlet it is that they give
you, that the side effects are10 times worse than what you're
experiencing anyhow.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
So it's already gone.

Speaker 3 (01:23:50):
It's already gone.
No, that's exactly.
No, that's great.
And, sue, do you have any finalwords?

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
Yeah, first thing is, as Travis mentioned, it's going
to be hard.
Well, so is living like you'reliving.
Yeah, um, living in a placewhere you know it's like.
I don't experience what Travisexperienced.
I have not experienced what youexperience, but watching it
from an outsider's point of view, I can't imagine, I just can't

(01:24:24):
imagine, can't imagine like oneword being enough or one
sentence being enough forsomebody to want to end their
life.
You know, that's not something,so your life is probably hard
anyway.
Also, if you've got somebodywilling to come along with you,
bring them along with you,because I think that's really
helpful.
And if you're on the other side, if you're the spouse side, the
spouse side, the, the friendside, whatever that is, um, you

(01:24:49):
need help too, because becauseyou don't go, you don't live in
a battlefield and not get andnot and not receive injuries,
and, yeah, when you live in awar zone, it there's a cost.

Speaker 3 (01:25:07):
Yeah, I think I need to have you on too.
The only other spouse thatwe've had on is my husband.
Well, that's not true.
There was one other reallyreally early on.
But it's not a common thing tobe able to find somebody who's
been through this and made itout to the other side.
I think I wouldn't have blamedmy husband if he'd left in 2008
when I had my breakdown.
That was the worst year everand you know I I will forever be

(01:25:34):
grateful that he stayed.
But it's not an easy thing andand I'm you know it's been
incredible to actually see notjust Travis's healing, but to
see you as well, you know, towatch you learn how to speak up
for yourself and learn how tohold healthy boundaries and, you
know, make better choices thatwere actually better for you and
for Travis, not just for you.
You know it was better for yourmarriage, it was better for him
.
So I, if you're open to it, I'dlove to have you on again to

(01:25:55):
you know, to talk about thatfrom the spouse's perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
But one other thing that was a huge, I think,
changed my perspective.
Huge was there was one day Icalled you.
I was like I texted you and Iwas like, can you talk for a
minute?
And and I was like, can hecontrol this?
I just need to know, can hecontrol this, cause he's ranting
all over the place.
Can he control this?
And you said yes, he can, hejust doesn't know it yet.

(01:26:19):
And you saying that was like,okay, all right, so you know,
look for your hope.
Okay, all right, so you know,look for your hope, Look for
those things that bring the hope.
But yeah, I would love to.

Speaker 2 (01:26:39):
Yeah, and one more quick thing for those of you who
don't have a supportive spousefriend whoever I think we're the
only people in the Upsiderstribe that I'm aware of that
show up together.
Most people are just bythemselves.
So I don't want you to go like,well, my wife isn't supportive
or my husband isn't supportive.
That's not for me.
We're the anomaly, we're notthe norm.
So if you don't have asupportive spouse, still jump in
and I promise you will benefitfrom it and hopefully through

(01:27:02):
that your spouse can become moresupportive and they'll see some
, hopefully see some changes inyou and you can strengthen that
spouse friend, whateverrelationship you have, to help
with some support.

Speaker 3 (01:27:17):
Awesome.
You guys are so amazing.
Thank you so much for offeringto do this.
This has been an incredibleconversation.
I really appreciate both of you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:26):
Well, I will tell you , we are held up by an amazing
community.
Our church is like family.
I've never seen anything likeit.
We went to Chapel Hillyesterday.
There were three different momswho were at our house at
different times, loving on ourkids, and if it was not for the
community that I have, I cannoteven imagine being able to

(01:27:49):
function and having my bestfriend on the phone too.
But yeah, just like.

Speaker 2 (01:27:55):
And you're part of that community and you are part
of that you are part of thatcommunity.
You are.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
And yeah, god has provided.
He provides Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:28:05):
Yeah, all right, until next time, upsiders.
Hey, thanks for joining ustoday.
If you're ready to start onyour path to wellness with
bipolar, go to myupsideofdowncomand get your free mood cycle
survival guide four steps tosuccessfully navigate bipolar

(01:28:26):
mood swings.
If you're ready for more, checkout the map to Wellness.
Until next time, upsiders.

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