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January 27, 2025 61 mins

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Episode Highlight:
After years of navigating the complex intersection of marriage and mental health, Sue Best shares her deeply personal journey of supporting her husband, Travis, through his bipolar disorder recovery. In this heartfelt conversation, Sue opens up about the emotional challenges, pivotal moments of growth, and the resilience required to maintain stability in the face of adversity. This episode offers practical insights and hope for those navigating similar struggles, emphasizing the importance of community, communication, and self-care.

Topics Covered in This Episode:

  • Balancing Roles: Sue’s experience as both a caregiver and a partner while supporting her husband’s mental health journey.
  • The Impact on Family: Reflections on ensuring her children’s well-being and fostering emotional resilience within her family.
  • Boundaries and Self-Care: The importance of setting healthy boundaries and prioritizing personal well-being to maintain stability in challenging situations.
  • The Power of Support: How therapy, faith, and community became vital pillars of resilience and healing for her family.
  • Parenting with Empathy: Teaching children about boundaries, emotional intelligence, and responsibility to empower them for future growth.
  • Lessons from Loved Ones: Life-changing advice from friends and humbling lessons learned through her children’s perspectives.

Sue’s story is a powerful reminder of the strength in vulnerability and the hope that can be found in the support of a compassionate community. Whether you’re navigating similar challenges or seeking to better understand the dynamics of mental health within relationships, this episode offers inspiration, tools, and connection.

Tune in to this impactful episode and discover how resilience, love, and support can transform even the most difficult circumstances.

Connect with Sue:

Instagram:
@the.other.side.of.bipolar


FREE Mood Cycle Survival Guide: https://theupsideofbipolar.com/free/

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We hit 19 years in December the first time in our
marriage.
He was stable and I was like,oh, oh, look at this, I have a
spouse, okay, you know cause,honestly feel more like a
caregiver, and so things werereally different.
And then he gets diagnosed andyou know, okay, we're going to
fight this, no big deal.

(00:20):
And then, right before hestarts immunotherapy, he has to
come off of True Hopesupplements.
Michelle, I cried for two daysstraight.
I could not stop crying becauseI knew what was coming.
For the first time we've hadstability, and now it's going to
be gone again, because what wefound is that mental illness is

(00:43):
not chemical, really, it'smicronutrient deficiency.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Hey, welcome to the Upside of Bipolar conversations
on the road to wellness.
I am so excited that youdecided to join me today.
We're a community learning howto live well with bipolar
disorder and we reject that.
The best we can expect islearning how to suffer well with
it.
I'm your host, michelleReitinger, of MyUpsideOfDowncom,
where I help people withbipolar disorder use the map to

(01:13):
wellness to live healthy,balanced, productive lives.
Welcome to the conversation.
Hey, welcome to the Upside ofBipolar.
I am your host, michelleReitinger, and I have a repeat

(01:33):
guest.
I'm super excited to welcomeSue Best back to our podcast.
She is the wife of somebodythat is actually in my program,
the Upsiders Tribe, and I'm veryexcited that she has agreed to
come back on herself so that wecan talk about the spouse's
perspective supporting somebodywho is dealing with bipolar
symptoms and also somebody who'strying to recover.
So thank you so much, sue, forbeing willing to come on.

(01:55):
I'm super excited about theconversation today.
Thanks so much.
I'm excited to be here.
So let's start with your story,sue.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay.
So I guess I had never reallythought about bipolar or
anything until Travis and I weremarried, and we were married in
2005, december of 2005.
And the first thing that Ithought was really odd was he
got really, really mad at me onNew Year's Eve.
I made a mistake and obligatedus to something and didn't run

(02:28):
it by him, and he got reallyupset with me, and I mean not
just a little bit upset, butlike really upset, and I was
like, wow, that's intense and Idon't understand.
And then the same day, somebodythat I knew also had a serious
fall and she ended up dying, andI was upset about that at the
same time.
And he had no, he was like, youknow, no support at all for

(02:52):
that, just tunnel vision on, um,the offense that had occurred
to him.
And so that was, uh, verystrange to me, but I just kind
of was like, well, it'll be fine, you know, it'll, it'll, he'll,
he'll be fine, it'll workitself out.
And so the first, you know, thefirst few months we were

(03:13):
married, there were some strangethings that happened that I
couldn't really put my finger on, couldn't really explain, but I
was just like, oh, it'll befine, cause in my mind
everything is always going to befine.
You know, I'm very adaptableand very much a back bounce back
person, even when I when I getknocked down.

(03:33):
So just a lot of that.
And within the first few monthsof us being married, he wanted
to go see a marriage counselorand I was like, okay, so we
started our journey of marriagecounselors and there were a lot
of them because they would goand he wanted.
His intent with us going to seea marriage counselor was for

(03:56):
them to tell me what I've donewrong to hurt him.
Oh, it sounds so absurd.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
No, it's actually quite common.
So no, that's a very normal.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
Anyways, we go and they're like actually you know
that's, you know what you'resaying is not really true.
So then we go find another one,because that didn't happen.
And I can remember really beingvery close to a breaking point
and he got really upset.
We were seeing this onecounselor and he had an office
here and then he had an officean hour and a half away and
Travis, like we have to seesomebody today, and so he was in

(04:33):
his Jacksonville office.
So we drove up there and Traviswas like furious the whole time
and I can remember he walkedout of the room at one point and
I can remember looking at thecounselor going something has
got to change, like I don't knowif you need to drug him or what
I don't know.
All I know is something is notOK.

(04:54):
And I think that's the firsttime I ever really voiced to
anybody that things were reallyhard, and that was about eight
years in.
Things were really hard andthat was about eight years in.
And at the same counselingappointment, that was the first
time that somebody ever lookedat Travis and said you're being
abusive, like verbally it wasalways verbal, but he just

(05:14):
looked at him and said you'rebeing abusive.
And then I had to sit there andthink about the fact that, oh,
I'm in a relationship where I'mbeing verbally abused.
What do I do with this?
I had young kids.
We have two daughters that areat home now, and one's 13 and
one's 15.
And so a lot of my lenseventually became how is what

(05:40):
I'm living through going toaffect them?

Speaker 2 (05:43):
And that has always been a very heavy part.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
But again things went .
You know, we stopped going tothat counselor after that little
episode or whatever.
And I really don't remember whowe went to next.
But I do remember I've had adirect sales business for since
1999.
So a lot of years now.
And I can remember I've had adirect sales business for since
1999.

(06:05):
So a lot of years now.
And I can remember I'm like youknow what I really want to grow
again.
And I can remember having aconversation with a mentor and I
was just talking to her and shewas like Okay, well, I know,
you know, I know you can do this, so how many appointments are
you holding?
And I'm like oh.
I'm not holding appointments.
And she goes why are you notholding appointments?
I'm like, oh, I can't leave myhouse.

(06:26):
She said, why can you not leaveyour house?
And I'm like, well, I havechildren at home and they have
to be taken care of.
And she goes well, you're,can't your husband keep them?
I'm like, oh, no, he, he cannottake care of himself and I
cannot, I cannot leave mychildren.
Like he that that will not work.
And and so I, you know, there'sjust points where God just

(06:52):
really opened my eyes to where Iwas, and he and she just looked
at me and she's like nobody can, nobody can grow a business in
this situation.
She's like what do you think itis?
And I just, I said, saidhonestly, I think he probably is
bipolar, and my best friend,who I always room with when I
went to conferences and thattype of thing, um, we had had a

(07:15):
conversation about it a fewmonths prior and I finally, you
know, when I told my mentor that, um, I said I really think he's
bipolar.
And and she's like, well, haveyou told him?
I'm like, are you kidding me?
No, I can't say that he's notstable.
I'll say something like that.
And she said and I know thesewords were inspired by God she

(07:35):
said, well, would he considergoing to see somebody to
eliminate the possibility thatit could be chemical?
And I was like, I don't know,but I can say that that's
something I can say.
And so that night, that was ourconversation.
And he said, yeah, I'll go seesomebody.
And so that kind of opened thedoor to a diagnosis and a change

(08:01):
.
And I say a change because hebecame medicated.
And I will say that things werebetter, but I'm not sure how
much better they were.
They were more different thanbetter.
And all this time I'm living insurvival mode and I think if
anything defines being a spouseof somebody that has bipolar,

(08:27):
it's you're in survival mode,that's where you live and you do
the best you can and you'revery unaware of your own needs.
If anything, like I would say,very unaware, very aware of the
needs of those around me, butvery unaware of my own, like

(08:50):
basically, would tell anybody ohyeah, I don't have any needs, I
don't need anything, just won't.
So, anyways, and then you know,fast forward.
So that was in 2015 and he wasbetter, but still not stable.
He was still suicidal and and Ithink there's, you know,

(09:10):
there's so much weight thatcomes with that, so much weight
that comes with with watchingsomebody walk out the door and
going I wonder if they're goingto come back, I wonder if I'll
see them again, um, or, you know, are they going to be okay?
What's going to happen whenthey come back?
Who's going to come back?

(09:31):
All of these things are yourdaily life and it's, it's
tremendous and it's a lot and,yeah, oh my gosh, sue.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
So there's so many things.
I'm like taking notes over herebecause I'm like don't forget
to ask her about this, and soone of the things that I think a
lot of people would like tohear more about is when you're
in a marital relationship, inorder for there to have a
healthy marital relationship,you have to be vulnerable, right
, each person has to bevulnerable with the other person

(10:04):
, and when you make yourselfvulnerable, I always imagine it
kind of like opening yourself up.
You know you're, we have this,everybody has kind of like a
protection around them.
And when you're in the maritalrelationship, you're opening
that protection up and allowingthat person to harm you, because
in order to connect, you haveto be vulnerable and risk harm

(10:25):
right, but when you've gotsomebody that's unpredictable,
like that what you weredescribing with the you know
every time he leaves the house,you don't know who's coming back
.
You don't know if he's comingback.
You cannot allow yourself to bevulnerable Like it's not safe.
It isn't safe.
You would have learned that itisn't safe.
So how did you try to think ofthe right way to ask this

(10:47):
question?
I almost want to ask why youstayed.
I asked my husband the samequestion, because God would not
let me go.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
I begged, I prayed.
I'm like God please let meleave.
And he wouldn't, and that's thereason I stayed is because God
did not allow me to.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, well, and one of the things that I experienced
from you know, from theperspective of somebody who was
quite ill when my kids wereyounger I felt very helpless.
I felt like I had no controlover the you know, and
especially after you get abipolar diagnosis like the
bipolar diagnosis, it's almostlike it gives you permission to

(11:27):
to to still be unstable becauseyou're like, well, I can't help
it.
I'm, I have bipolar, you know,and um, and there was a lot of
within the mental health space.
There was a lot of fostering ofself-centeredness, the way that
they approached it.
There was a lot of like it'snot your fault.
Your family needs to understandyou know you're doing the best
you can kind of mollycoddling of.

(11:48):
You know, of the person who'sstruggling.
I experienced that myself and Istarted to have times I didn't
experience it as much with myhusband, but I experienced it a
lot with my children where Icould see the damage I was doing
to them.
I knew my behavior was abusive.
I knew when I would have theselike rage outbursts with my kids
, that that's abusive, whetheror not I meant to do it.

(12:10):
I was abusing my children and Ididn't like that, but I didn't
know what else to do.
I felt very helpless Right andI've told you before, you know,
in private I I'm, I wouldn'thave blamed my husband if he'd
left, like I wouldn't haveblamed him, especially when I
had my breakdown that year whenI made multiple attempts on my
life and I, you know I, washospitalized over and over again
.
He was the one who stopped meeach time when I tried to end my

(12:32):
life, like that is.
That is emotionally devastating, and I would not have blamed
him if he'd left and I.
It took him, I think I don'tknow 10 years to be able to
answer the question, maybe morethan 10 years to be able to
answer the question.
Why didn't you leave?
Cause I would ask him all thetime he's like, I don't know.
Like, stop asking me thatquestion.

(12:52):
I don't know, I'm here, youknow and and that, but um, but
can you, can you talk about?
Like at the beginning of yourmarriage, I'm sure you were much
more open, because when youcome in it's all roses.
When we get married, right, youknow, oh, I love you so much
and everything is going to be,you know, beautiful and perfect.
And that have you everconsidered?
Like the process that you wentthrough in in like removing,

(13:16):
like losing your vulnerability.
I don't know if that's theright way to ask it, because I
think there's probably got to bea conflict within you because
you're, like I'm his wife, Ishould be, you know, like you
feel guilty for not beingvulnerable, but then there's,
you know, survival mode likekicks in and you're like not
thinking about that anymore.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
So can you do you understand the question I'm
asking you Like yeah, yeah, Ithink just being a thinker
versus a feeler For me, you know, that was.
I think that's part of thereason I was able to stay and I
would say that I built I'd say Ibuilt some pretty good walls

(13:59):
because I just knew that Icouldn't trust.
And so the way that I couldn'ttrust, and so the way that I
tried to support him as a spousewas just being as attending to
his needs as possible.
And if he asked any questionsabout me.
I had no answers.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yes, yeah, well, and that was one of the things it
took.
Sorry, there's a lot of thingsI'm going to say.
I shared this with you before,but when my husband finally
agreed to do marriage counselingwith me, we were a different
situation where I kept trying toget him to go and he was like,
yeah, I'm good, like no, I'mokay, I don't really want to do
that.
But as he saw me healing and hestarted to trust me more, he

(14:45):
finally got to the point wherehe's like, okay, I'm willing to
try this.
And it was in that marriagecounseling experience.
And I think that's one thing Iactually want to talk a little
bit about, because therapy ingeneral is only productive if
the person who is going, or thepeople who are going, are
willing to look at themselves.
You cannot go into therapylooking for themselves.

(15:05):
You cannot go into therapylooking for validation.
You cannot go into therapylooking for somebody to just pat
you on the back and say it'sokay, right, or like your
experience.
You know.
You can't go into therapylooking for somebody to shape
your spouse up right.
It has to be.
Each person has to go in withthe idea I want to do what I
need to do.

(15:25):
I'm going to do my part.
What do I need to do in orderto bring a healthier version of
myself into this relationship,you know?
And so when we finally went Iit was.
We had an experience one daywhere I kept explaining how my
husband felt to the therapist,because my husband wouldn't say
anything, and I don't likeuncomfortable silence, and so

(15:45):
you know, I say, well, he doesthis and he does this, and I
think he feels this and stuff.
And the therapist keptinterrupting me and say, scott,
how do you feel?
Like?
He kept, she kept coming backto him and and I can't remember
the way that we came to it, butit came to the point where she
she helped us recognize myhusband didn't know how to
identify needs anymore.
It wasn't that he didn't want toshare them, he didn't even

(16:07):
recognize them anymore because Iwas the squeaky wheel who had
gotten the oil for almost all ofour marriage.
And he got to a point where hedidn't feel like he could have
needs anymore and so he juststopped recognizing them.
And I would ask him I asked himall the time what do you need
from me?
How can I help you?
And he'd be like I'm good.
And it wasn't that he didn'twant to share, he didn't even

(16:28):
know how to identify them.
What does that feel like?
Do you mind sharing how thatfeels?
Did you get to a point whereyou started being able to
recognize your needs?
Because it's not like the needsdon't exist.
They get suppressed or ignoredand then they can come out in
other ways, like anger orfrustration or, you know,
emotional.
There's a lot of emotionalstuff that gets bottled up

(16:49):
inside of you when needs don'tget identified and met.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, I would say that I felt like I could have
needs two days a year and thatwould be my birthday and
Mother's Day, and those were theonly days that I felt like I
had agency to ask for what Iwanted on those days.
And then, of course, in thespring, there's a lot of pollen.

(17:13):
Well, pollen inflames the brain.
Well, when the brain isinflamed, things get worse.
So then, like even on days thatI may normally be able to
express needs, I was like, oh,nevermind, he's not okay, so
nevermind.
And like he worked at the firedepartment on shift work and I

(17:38):
would pray that the shiftcalendar ended with him working
on my birthday.
I always wanted him to be atwork on my birthday so I could
have a good birthday.
Um, cause my birthday's inApril.
And so, um, yeah.
And I was like and he'd say, oh, I'm working on your birthday.
Do you want me to take off?
No, that's about as far as itgot on.

(18:00):
Expressing my needs was just no, I don't want you to take off.
My needs was just no, I don'twant you to take off.
So I would say it's been untilthe last year that I have more
started taking care of myself,and one reason is because one of
my friends at church just cameup to me and he was married to
somebody with bipolar and theirmarriage ended years and years

(18:23):
ago, I mean like over 20 yearsago.
But you know he's, I know partof his story and he just came up
to me one day and he's like youbetter start taking care of
yourself.
And I mean now, because ifsomething happens to you, what
do those girls have?
And he got very in my face in agood way, you know he.

(18:46):
He got very direct with meabout you have to.
It's not an option.
I don't care what.
I don't care what you think isimportant in your life.
If you don't start doing this,you are not going to be able to
survive.
So I think that was a majorturning point in going Okay,
yeah and yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Well, and I think you know, going back to the
counseling thing, one of thethings that I recognized in my
marriage was it Counseling wouldnot have been productive had we
tried to do it when I was notdoing well, when I was
struggling because this is notwell, it's not an excuse, but we
feel like a victim.

(19:39):
We feel like things arehappening to us.
You can't kids play one day andrealized that if I ever
successfully ended my life, thatit would ruin my daughter's
life, she'd blame herself that Istarted even even attempting to
figure out how to takeresponsibility for myself.
Like and I think that that'sone of the challenges with the
bipolar diagnosis, you know,with a lot of these mental
health diagnoses is it makes usthink we've gotten, we've been

(20:00):
given an answer for our behavior.
It it it ends curiosity intothe source of the symptoms.
It ends curiosity.
It ends any thought that wehave any control over this.
You know we're, we're waitingfor the medication to fix things
we're waiting for.
You know we're expectingeverybody around us just to hold
space for us.
You know those kinds of thingsand and so I know that you and I

(20:21):
have talked about, um, theimportance of you being in
therapy and learning how to sethealthy boundaries for yourself
and learning how to make surethat, because it doesn't feel
good from my perspective with myhusband it didn't feel good for
him to let me hurt him.
It didn't feel good for me tobe hurting my children like that
.
That's not helping anybody,it's enabling and it is not

(20:44):
helpful, because we can see thedamage we're doing.
We may not see it in the moment, but we definitely see it
afterwards.
And so I started to understandhow critical it was for my
husband to not just havepermission but recognize his
responsibility to have healthyboundaries for himself and for
me to teach my children how tohave healthy boundaries.
I got my kids in therapy, but Ihad to work on myself.

(21:08):
I had to be responsible formyself and I had to do the work
to heal.
While we were in a marriagecounseling session one time and
something came up and I realizedmy unhealed trauma from my
first marriage was stillimpacting my current marriage

(21:29):
and I was shocked by that and Irealized like, okay, I cannot
avoiding, this isn't helpinganything, it is making things
worse.
I have to do something aboutthis.
And so I had to go into myindividual counseling and I had
to do the work to heal from thatso that I could eliminate those
triggers and eliminate thedamage from that, so that I
could eliminate those triggersand eliminate the damage.
So what?
What has been your experiencewith therapy?
Cause I know that things have.

(21:49):
You've.
You've done more workpersonally.
Has that helped you in yourmarriage and has it helped you
learn how to manage thingsbetter, like how?
How has that, how has doingyour own work helped you?

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Um, I would say it's helped me to see things from a
different perspective.
It's helped me to go oh, I canuse my voice and if he chooses
to get mad, that's on him,because I very much tried to
control the atmosphere because Ididn't want, you know, I didn't
want my kids growing up inturmoil.
I just didn't, and my youngestin particular is super sensitive

(22:24):
to that.
And so, me addressing, if he'ssaying things to me and they're
hurtful and I address them, sheconsiders that we're arguing and
so don't want to argue in frontof her.
But at the same time I'm like Iwas like I'm sorry, you see
that as arguing, and even to thepoint of saying I'm sorry, you

(22:45):
see that as arguing.
I'm not okay with him speakingto me like that, you know.
And so even with my daughtersjust being able to say hey, I'm
not going to.
You know, it's not healthy fordad to say that and I'm not, I
mean cause she will hear if he'sangry and typically when he's

(23:06):
angry he's really hurting.
But because he's hurting itcomes out as anger and she's
like what's dad mad at you about?
I mean, in a heartbeat she willcome find me if she hears
anything and say what's he madat you about?
Are you okay?
But I had to be willing to findmy voice and willing to risk

(23:27):
more conflict than I was alreadyliving in in order to find part
of myself again.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, and when you started learning how to set
boundaries, those are boundariesthat you're talking about,
because boundaries, we don'thave any control over anybody
else.
We don't have any control overanybody else.
We don't have any control overthe other piece of people's
choices, their behavior, theiryou know, you can't.
A boundary is not saying youcan't do this.
To me, that is not okay.
A boundary would be saying ifyou choose to do this, I am

(23:57):
going to do this.
You know I am going to.
I'm going to say that's notokay, I'm going to walk away.
I'm going to walk away, I'mgoing to leave the house.
This is what I'm going to do ifyou choose to do this.
That's the boundary and I thinkit's really important for
people to understand that.
But it can be really hard whenyou first start setting
boundaries because it feelsuncomfortable and most often,

(24:17):
especially with somebody whodoesn't respect boundaries and
people who have mental healthchallenges, especially bipolar,
are notorious for not havinghealthy boundaries.
I had my kids, my poor kids,like.
It took a long time for me tolearn how to respect their
boundaries.
My daughter started assertingherself you know, it wasn't she,
it was just like I don't likethis anymore, I don't want to do
this anymore.
I don't like it when you talkto me like that and I would be

(24:40):
like no, you have to talk to me,you have to sit here.
And it took a long time for meto recognize that I'm running
over the top of a boundary.
She's trying to set a boundarywith me and I'm not respecting
that.
So what was it like learning?
Was it something that you weredoing conscientiously or was it
just like survival?
What was the experience thatyou had with starting to learn
how to set boundaries foryourself?

(25:01):
And did you struggle with that?
Because I think a lot of timespeople think I have to be good
at this right away, and it's not.
It's a struggle learning how toidentify what a boundary is and
then learn how to set it andthen what to do when you get
resistance.
So what was your experiencewith that?

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Well, one of my really adaptive habits was
apologizing for whatever he wasupset about, whether I did
anything to cause it or not.
I'm like, if I can justapologize, enough, because he
used to give me speeches a lotabout how I don't apologize,
right.
So I'm telling you it's been,it's been a ride, but anyways,

(25:39):
you know.
So I used to get the.
You don't apologize, you're notsincere, you're so cold, you
don't care.
You know all this.
Apologize, you're not sincere,You're so cold, you don't care.
You know all this.
So I'm like, okay, check theboxes of caring, apologizing
correctly, being sincere, youknow, check all the boxes, check
them all.
So I would just, I wouldliterally do whatever I could to
try to stabilize his emotionsas much as I could.

(26:01):
You know, I would just like, oh, it's my fault, it's my fault,
you're upset, it's my fault thatthat happened.
Oh, I'm so sorry I did that,you know.
And then you know, and I'm notone to tip it, you know, I mean,
that's very opposite of mypersonality.
It's like I'm not going to takeresponsibility for something
that's yours, but with Travisall day long, I would do it just

(26:23):
because I didn't want morebacklash.
Yeah, it's like I just want totry to calm the backlash.
And then finally I was like youknow what?
I've got so much inner turmoilright now I can't do this
anymore.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
That's like I had to learn to say I'm sorry, you're
upset about that, I'm sorry thatthat hurt you, because his big
thing is, you know, the IFSinternal family systems.
There is a part of him that isstill hanging on to something
that happened almost 20 yearsago and he's still upset about

(26:59):
it.
And, like today, he's stillupset about it and it still
affects him.
And so I had to.
I just had to learn that youknow what.
I'm so sorry that that'supsetting to you and let it go.
I think I could describe life asvery much feeling like I live
under a microscope.

(27:19):
I picked up my phone and heinterpreted that as I don't care
about him, I care about myphone more, don't care about him
, I care about my phone morethan I care about him, and I'm
like no, actually I just want toread the Bible, just want to do
my Bible study.
Before I got out of bed, youcould be spending time with me
right now instead of your phone,and I mean just like all the
things, and I just had to gookay, and I'm going to finish

(27:42):
this and then I will talk to you.
So you know it, just it.
It really took a lot of took alot of reprogramming and I'm
still a work in progress.
I'm still a huge work inprogress.
I mean I met with my therapistthis morning for an hour, so
still a work in progress on howdo I do this, how do I, how do I

(28:05):
do this, how do I navigate this?

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Well, and I think that it's really important for
people to understand that thisis.
Human beings are changedconstantly, like it's.
You know we can end up incycles of.
You know they call it.
You know I've heard somesources call it a dance.
They call it.
You know, I've heard somesources call it a dance.
You know you get in this dance.

(28:33):
You end up in the same danceover and over again, or the same
argument over and over again,or the same.
You know, struggle over andover again.
But you know one of the thingsthat I've loved about the two of
you, as I've observed, first ofall, I want to make sure the
audience understands.
This is the first time that Ihave had a couple come into the
program.
The audience understands thisis the first time that I have
had a couple come into theprogram.
So Travis is in the programspecifically, but you came in as
a support person and I thought,man, this would be amazing if

(28:54):
everybody came in with a supportperson like this will be
incredible because because it'sthe dynamics within the
relationship are have such ahuge impact on the healing
process.
And you know you were able oneof the things that I love
talking to the two of you.
Travis has a desire to do better.
You know it's.
I have a desire to do better,you know it's it, but we still
struggle.
You know healing is a process.

(29:15):
That is not an event.
It is not something thathappens in a moment.
Right, and you guys got throwna huge curveball when he was
starting you know, starting toactually improve.
Things were getting better andthen he got diagnosed with
cancer and that threw everythinginto major upheaval, right.
But one of the things that Ilove about what you're doing is
that you are there to supporthim and you are still working on

(29:41):
yourself and your and yourdaughters learning how to set
healthy boundaries and make surethat you improve the health of
the overall marriage whileyou're supporting him in his
healing process.
What, sorry, I've got like somany questions in my head about
this.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
We'll talk about physical health and mental
health real quick.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Physical health and mental health real quick?
Yeah, absolutely, because thisis something that I think is
absolutely huge and very telling.
Travis was diagnosed withcancer in October and we got a
clear diagnosis in November andit was a very aggressive
melanoma, stage four, metastaticnodular melanoma, so extremely

(30:29):
fast growing Cannot tell you howmuch support we had come around
us.
I mean, it was like a tidalwave of support and it was
amazing.
And even though his diagnosiswas that serious, I may have
cried two or three times, I justdidn't because I was like we

(30:49):
can do this, this we can do.
Travis went on True Hopesupplements in the last year he
cross-titrated off of Lamictal,which is a mood stabilizer.
Supposedly that kept him in asuicidal place, but whatever,
and on to true hope and for thefirst time in our marriage we

(31:12):
hit 19 years in December.
The first time in our marriagehe was stable and I was like, oh
, oh, look at this, I have aspouse, okay, you know, cause
honestly feel more like acaregiver, and so things were
really different.
And then he gets diagnosed andyou know, okay, we're going to
fight this, no big deal.

(31:32):
And then, right before hestarts, immunotherapy.
That's the way that you treatthis, the type of melanoma he
has.
He has to come off of True Hopesupplements.
Michelle, I cried for two daysstraight, like literally just
cried all that, like could notstop crying because I knew what
was coming and I'm like, oh mygosh, for the first time we've

(31:56):
had stability and now it's goingto be gone again.
Yeah, because you know, what wefound is that mental illness is
not chemical, really, it'smicronutrient deficiency.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
And it's been really interesting because coming back
into a place where we're youknow, where Travis is unstable,
again Coming back into thisplace, our conversations are
different because he's not on aprescription med so he can
actually process things.
But it's 100 times harderdealing with that than it is

(32:35):
stage four cancer.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, I know, and you guys talked a little bit about
this in the other episode.
So anybody who hasn't listenedto the episode with them as a
couple please go back and listento that.
I'll make sure I link that inthe show notes.
But you guys talked about thedifference between the support
that you received with thecancer diagnosis versus the lack

(32:57):
of support with the bipolardiagnosis.
But you know what I won't.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
Last I won't.
And that's when one of thethings I'm like I've been very
intentional like going back into, of the things I'm like I've
been very intentional like goingback into this place, I'm like
I'm going to write down all mylessons.
I'm going to like really writethem down and get some solid
like be very curious and veryobservant and I'm like I am so
much faster to ask for prayerabout a physical need than a

(33:24):
mental need.
I am so much faster to ask forhelp because of a physical need
than a mental need.
I am so much faster to ask forhelp because of a physical need
than a mental need.
So it's not so much that thesupport is not there, it's that
I don't ask.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
I don't think that people know how to give support,
though.
I mean, even if you were asking, I don't think people really
know what to do, and that's oneof the reasons why, in the M
cycle survival guide, that thevery first thing is your support
team and identifying what theneeds are, how they can help and
what the boundaries around thathelp, because a lot of people
don't even know what to do andmost of the time you're not

(33:57):
asking for help until you're incrisis, and that burns people
out, right, you know, if theonly time they get you know
you're asking for something iswhen your things are terrible,
people get to the point wherethey're not going to pick up the
phone anymore, right, they seeyour call and they're like, yeah
, I'm not going to do that today, right, and so it's really.

(34:17):
All of this comes back topersonal responsibility.
Everybody has to takeresponsibility for themselves
and you cannot stabilizesomebody else.
It's just not possible, andthat's one of the challenges
with, especially with, a spouse.
I think that it's alsochallenging with a child,
because you feel responsible foryour children, right, but

(34:39):
regardless, you know and I'veused this analogy before I
always hesitate because I don'twant people to take it the wrong
way, but it's very similar todealing with a drug addict and I
use that on myself Myself.
I think that my husband and mychildren were dealing with
somebody in a similar situationbecause until I wanted help not

(34:59):
that I didn't want help I wasgoing to all my doctor's
appointments, taking all themedication, doing all the things
I was supposed to do all mydoctor's appointments, taking
all the medication, doing allthe things I was supposed to do,
but things weren't gettingbetter.
I was just getting worse UntilI recognized that there was
something I could do.
Things didn't get any betterand nothing, no amount of help
from my husband or no amount ofhelp from anybody from the

(35:19):
outside was going to do anythingabout it.
Right.
And that's similar to somebodywho's dealing with drug
addiction, because you seesomebody suffering, you can see
the damage that's happeningaround them, you can see the
damage they're doing tothemselves, but no amount of
talking to them, no amount of ofyou know, any of the support
that you give them is going todo any good until they want to

(35:41):
help themselves right.
And so it's a similar kind ofthing where you have to set
boundaries, you have to say okay, and I love what you say.
I want to ask you a little bitif you can talk a little bit
about what you do to help yourchildren, because it's one thing
to set a boundary for yourselfand protect yourself, but

(36:01):
learning how to help yourchildren recognize they are not
responsible, like you talk aboutwith your youngest daughter,
like children feel responsible.
They can feel people's emotions.
They feel like they'reresponsible for making people
better.
They don't understand, theydon't understand emotional
responses, they don't understandwhat's going on.
All they know is that you know,like you said with your, with
you and your husband when youstarted standing up for yourself
, like, oh no, mom and dad arearguing.

(36:23):
You know maybe their marriage isgoing to end.
You know like they're.
They're like how do we fix this?
What do we do?
So what?
What kinds of things can youhave you experienced?
Do you do to try and help yourchildren, your daughters, learn
how to have healthy boundariesfor themselves and learn how to
recognize that they're notresponsible for their dad,

(36:45):
they're not responsible for you,they're responsible for
themselves.
How do you help them with that?

Speaker 1 (36:50):
We have a lot of conversations.
We homeschool, which has beenamazing because I'm like you
know what.
They are not going to have theDeclaration of Independence
memorized.
I'm not that homeschool mom,I'm the homeschool mom.
That's like let's talk about.
Let's talk about boundaries,let's talk about mental health,
let's talk about how are youdoing and what do you need.

(37:12):
What's important to you thisweek?
What do you need?
I need to make sure that I goand spend time with this
specific friend.
Okay, then we're going to setthat up.
You know, it's, it's what it's alot of asking them what do you
need to take care of yourself?
What's going to be helpful toyou this week?
How are you doing you know what?

(37:33):
Making sure they eat.
And let me tell you, my kids donot eat the same thing.
I've got one carnivore, um Maris13,.
Hardcore carnivore.
She is in a growth spurt 90% ofthe days.
Um, I've got Emery who's like Idon't really like meat, you
know, and she, she will eat itCause I'm like, okay, we have to

(37:54):
have, you know, your ironlevels low.
We got to take care of this.
So I mean, she'll eat and youknow, but it's, it's being
intentional about taking care oftheir needs and having
conversations and and alsohaving really hard conversations
with Travis, like Maris um goesshe and, and I would.
I was horseback riding with heruntil I broke my foot and I just

(38:15):
haven't started back yet.
And that was another boundaryis, you know, being able to
recognize.
It's okay for me to dosomething fun, that's okay,
that's important.
Yeah, and I started singinglast fall again.
Hadn't sang in years, startedsinging in the Wilmington Choral
Society.

(38:36):
So you know, it's doing thosethings that take care of me so I
can take care of others.
But anyways, with Maris I'mlike dad wants to come to
horseback riding.
She lost it, absolutely lost it.
She's like mom.
That is where I go to get awayfrom him.
And she's like that's where I goto get a break.

(38:56):
And I cannot, I absolutelycannot have him there.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, youknow cause?
I got Travis on one sidethinking I've got stage four
melanoma, I might die from this.
I really want to see my kidride horseback.
And I got Maris on the otherside saying this is the only
place that I have a way, and sobalancing the two of those is so

(39:20):
much pressure, it's so much.
And just being able to justgoing Maris, I understand, and
if you change your mind, let meknow and going Travis, I'm so
sorry, but Maris is not at apoint where you can come.
And it's having thoseconversations and seeing him cry
about it because it hurts him,and it's just all kinds of hard.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
My actions caused harm and one of the hardest
experiences I ever had with mychildren was going into a
therapy session my daughterinvited.
So that was one thing I want tomake sure everybody understands
you need to pick a therapistyou trust, you know.
So I vet my therapist thetherapist for my children when
they were underage.
Now you know, now they'readults and they can.
You know my oldest is an adultbut, um, but you have to find a

(40:21):
therapist you trust and then youhave to let go of it.
It's very hard because I wastrying to help them learn how to
use therapy proactively, causeI at the beginning it wasn't
super productive because I wasputting them in cause.
I'm like let's fix you.
I know, I know I hurt you, Iwant to fix you, we're going to
fix you.
And I stuck them in and neitherof my older two wanted to do it

(40:42):
.
They were like I don't likethis, I don't understand.
My son was like I don't knowwhy I'm going, mom, it's just
like so stupid.
I'm like because I hurt you andme included in a session.

(41:02):
And it was a very humblingexperience because I had to go
into the session and listen tomy daughter talk about how much
I'd hurt her and I and I I wentin consciously thinking do not
defend yourself, like just thisis her space, you're there for
her.
And it was such a hardexperience for me.
But one of the things Irealized is that part of the
process of becoming whole as aperson myself and then becoming

(41:26):
whole and again it goes back tokind of like the drug addict
analogy or comparison whensomebody is a drug addict, they
do a tremendous amount of harmto people around them.
You know, and when we'restruggling with these symptoms
with bipolar, we do a tremendousamount of harm to people around
them.
You know, and when we'restruggling with these symptoms
with bipolar, we do a tremendousamount of harm to people around
us.
And I realized if I love mydaughter, if I really love my
daughter, I need to give herspace to heal.

(41:47):
I need to allow her to tell mehow much she hurt me and not
defend myself, not stand up formyself and say, well, I didn't
do it on purpose, doesn't matter, you know like.
If you know like, if you know ifa child when you've got little
children if they hurt somebodyon accident, you still invite
them to say I'm sorry becauseyou want them to acknowledge
something that they did, eventhough it was an accident,
caused harm to somebody else,and you want them to acknowledge

(42:09):
that so that they can.
You know the other person feelsseen and they feel like they've
.
You know they care that theyhurt them and it's the same kind
of thing, you that they hurtthem, and it's the same kind of
thing.
You know I didn't do it onpurpose, but I am really sorry.
I never meant to hurt my childand I want her to heal and part
of the healing process isletting her have her space.
You know, and and like you weresaying with the with the
horseback riding, you know I Ihad to learn how to.

(42:31):
When my daughter says I don'twant to be around you right now,
I had to be okay, all right, Irespect that.
You know you can have yourspace and and so you know it's
it's really.
I understand how, what you'retalking about, how difficult it
is to balance both things.
You know, because your husbandloves your daughter, he wants to
be there for her, he wants tobe included in her life and at
the same time, you know you'reteaching your daughter to stand

(42:54):
up for herself and if she's, youknow she has a place where she
feels safe and it's created apace of safety.
She has to be able to say no,this is my space, this is my
time.
I need this for myself, and sothat's tremendous that you're

(43:14):
teaching your children how toidentify their needs and ask for
the things their needs to bemet and then expect that their
boundaries to be respected.
That's incredible, because alot of people don't learn that
in their youth, and so you know,even though they're going
through really hard things forthem to be learning these things
, you know they're.
I feel like they're going tohave, they're going to be quite
far ahead of the curve in a lotof ways, because they will have
learned some things that a lotof people don't learn until well

(43:36):
into adulthood.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
And we also.
I mean, we do have anincredible support system.
I mean even in the mentalhealth.
Again, it's much broader withthe physical health but it's
smaller as far as support goesfor the mental health.
But my daughters both havepeople that they can talk to

(43:58):
health.
But my daughters both havepeople that they can talk to
that.
You know, not just not justtherapists.
I was like right now I've gotone child that's like, yeah, I'm
not going because I don't wantany advice right now, okay,
thank you for telling me, so wedon't waste our time or money
going to therapy, right?
now but you just let me knowwhen you're ready again.
But she's talking to somebodyand you know she's able to

(44:20):
express herself and she'sexpressing herself more than she
has in years, which is reallyexciting to see.
And you know, it's like we'vegot mamas that are like, hey,
come hang out, you want to spendthe night at our house.
You know, stay a couple nights,whatever.
And mamas that take care of mykids.
And you know, that's beensomething too is just being able

(44:42):
to go.
Okay, who, who has God placedin our lives to come alongside
us and and walk with us throughthis, no matter what it is we're
walking through?
He placed them here and they'rewilling, and I'm super, super
grateful for that.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Yeah, and, and that's another piece of that mood
cycle survival guide, and Ithink you mentioned it in the in
the other podcast episode.
But that guide is for everybody, like, and not just for the
person who's struggling with the, with the symptoms, but, you
know, for you and for yourdaughters, like learning how to,
how to identify those needs foryourself, because symptoms we,
we, we think of bipolar symptomsas bipolar symptoms like this

(45:21):
is symptoms of this disease,right?
Everybody has mental healthsymptoms.
Everybody does, and they'regreat information if we learn
how to listen to it and so,learning how to pay attention to
the symptoms that you'reexperiencing, whether you're
feeling anxiety, whether you'refeeling depressed, whatever
those symptoms might be, that'spart of that early warning
system, which is step two in themood cycle survival guide,

(45:42):
where you learn how to identify.
I'm starting to feel anxious.
I'm, you know this.
Is my body going to fight orflight?
What's going on around me thatis causing me to feel this way?
How do I manage that?
You know, and learning how to,how to take responsibility for
your own mental health iscritical.
That's going back to the needs.

(46:02):
Like you were saying, I don'tknow how to express my needs.
Needs don't go away because youdon't identify them.
They just start to expressthemselves more and more loudly,
in unhealthy ways often.
Right, yes, yeah.
And the other thing I love aboutwhat you're saying is, in the
mood cycle, survival guide, partof the emergency response team

(46:23):
or I guess we don't call itemergency anymore, but the
response team is having help foryour children.
That's one thing that I learnedpretty quickly was how critical
it was to ask for, you know,have help for my children.
When they were little, it was,you know, people that I could
ask.
You know, when I was reallysick, it were people that I
could ask to take my kids for acouple hours so I could take a
nap and I knew they were safeand happy.

(46:43):
Right, as they get older, theyneed to be able to say I need a
break.
You know I need to go tosomebody's house and having safe
places for them to go, wherethey can go and and feel loved
and feel safe and kind of.
You.
Feel loved and feel safe andkind of.
You know, come back down fromthis fight or flight response
that often kicks in when you'rein instability is so critical,

(47:05):
not just in the moment but alsoin the long term, for them to
start recognizing I need a placeto go, I need a space to create
for myself that is safe.
Is that something that you thatkind of happened organically?
How did how did that come intoplay into in your life with your
children?

Speaker 1 (47:26):
The beginning of last year or at the end let's go
back to the end of 23, travisretired medically retired from
the fire department, and wethought, oh, things will get
better after he retires.
And you know, plot twist, no,they got worse and he ended up
dealing with more depression andmore severe depression than

(47:48):
he'd ever dealt with.
Really, we really thought thatgetting his sleep evened out
would help fix things, but itdidn't and he got worse.
And our church operates like afamily.
I mean, I just I cannot stressthe importance of community.
If you don't have community,you're not.

(48:08):
I don't know how you would makeit, I just don't.
And so you know I put down alot of pride and I was like this
is what we're dealing with andI need help.
And if y'all can take my kidssome, I would really appreciate
it, because I just need them tobe in a place where they can
just be kids and not have to beholding their breath and tense

(48:35):
and thankfully we got puppiesfor the girls in 2023 too, which
that's helped tremendously, butat the same time, that was just
having those emotional supportanimals for both of them, two
golden doodles.
I mean just you know they'rebonkers, but could not be more.
I couldn't love them anymore.
I mean just absolutely adorethem, and so just like just

(49:01):
being able to go.
Okay, they're teenagers andthankfully we do have enough
conversations that they weresaying I need a break and I'm
like, all right, I will get abreak for you.
And then, and on top of it, youknow, they we went through some
healing where they both had alot of food sensitivities and so
their food was reallychallenging.

(49:23):
And you know, and mamas that arelike, okay, um, you know, tell
me, tell me what they like toeat, and I'm like, well, emory
is pretty solid, maris, it goesby the day today she likes this,
especially if you buy a lot ofit.
Um, but just you know it wasreally having the mamas around
me that were like this probablywon't tomorrow though,
especially if you buy a lot ofit.
But just you know it was reallyhaving the mamas around me that
were like, hey, we're here foryou and we know how much you

(49:47):
carry and you know you're notgoing to do this alone, just
like them coming to me as muchas I was going to them and going
.
All right, I know I know you'rebreaking, so what do you need
right now, today?

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, that's incredible.
I have so much admiration foryou, like the more that I've
gotten to know you and seeingthe way that you handle things,
I know that you have a lot thatyou're struggling with, and and
you're quite resourceful.
You know it's pretty amazingand I'm so grateful that you are
willing to stay and willing to,but also willing to make sure

(50:23):
that you're and I shouldn't saybut and and also willing to do
the work on yourself and withyour daughters so that you can
can heal yourself and andpresent a healthy partner for
your husband, as he's goingthrough his own healing journey
and it's.
You know we can support eachother but, like I said, each of
us is responsible for ourselves.
Personal responsibility andaccountability is critical If

(50:46):
anybody wants to have healthyrelationships.
You know we can't, we can'tdepend on other people to.
You know, for our well being.
We need to, we need to takeresponsibility for ourselves.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
And I think that's a big one that I've had to learn,
because, you know, again I wouldapologize for stuff I didn't do
or, you know, just to try tosmooth everything over.
And and then I really gotchallenged to say, all right,
how'd you feel after you didthat?
Well, first of all I prefer notto feel what I'm carrying is

(51:22):
too heavy, and if I feel thenlike I might crumble, First of
all I'd prefer not to feel, butseriously, you know, I'd step
back and go.
I literally bought feelingwheels like that have all the
feelings around them.
I'm like all right, well, let'sfigure this out.
And also, learning about theEnneagram has been amazingly

(51:44):
helpful for me too, because, asan Enneagram eight with a very
strong seven wing, I had tolearn that my default emotion is
going to be to be angry aboutsomething.
But anger was maskingvulnerability.
And so because I spent so muchtime learning Enneagram and

(52:05):
understanding behavior in thatway, I had to go okay, if I'm
angry right now, what's underthis, what am I trying to mask?
And so just really gettingthere.
And when I first started askingthe question, of course it made
me mad because I didn't want todeal with it.
Yeah, again, thankfully I gotthis great big seven wing.

(52:28):
That's super adaptive, butanyways, you know.
But just really drilling downon the okay, what am I hiding?
What am I hiding from?
And then realizing okay, I justapologize for that and I don't
appreciate the way I treatedmyself in that situation.
And that didn't feel good andyou know, what Do I want my
daughters doing this?
No, all right, then I've got tochange, and I think that's

(52:52):
another piece to my healing isjust going what do I want my
daughters to do if they end upin a situation like this?
How do I want them to respond?
How are they going to stayhealthy if I don't model it?
And so a lot of being willingto walk through that was like if

(53:13):
I'm in a relationship and I'mmodeling, not being healthy, do
I want them to repeat this?
No, okay, then figure it out.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
Yeah, well, and I love what you're talking about
with emotions, because whenwe've talked about this in the
group frequently, that often, wewill start to label emotions as
good or bad, because we have atendency to link them to
behavior.
And so if we are feeling angryand the usual anger response is

(53:47):
an outburst, we start to sayit's bad to feel angry.
Anger is not good or bad, it isjust information.
Yeah, all it is is information.
Your brain or your body istrying to deliver information.
Yeah, all it is is information.
Your brain or your body istrying to deliver information.
You know, and I love whatyou've you know, you're starting
to recognize like I feel angrywhen something is not being, you
know, a need is not being met.
You know that's, that'ssomething that often needs not

(54:09):
being met come out in anger.
They come out in anger,resentment, you know,
frustration, and and so, insteadof labeling the emotion as bad,
have some curiosity and say whyam I feeling like that?
That's interesting.
I wonder why I feel that way andinstead of judging, you know we
we talk about this a lot in thegroup we're going to choose.
We're going to choose curiosityover judgment.

(54:29):
Why is?
Why am I feeling this way?
Why am I doing this thing?
Why am I, you know, and havingcuriosity about it to drill down
to what's actually going onunderneath the surface, so that
we can get to the root and solvethe problem, rather than and I
shouldn't say I have to becareful about saying solve the
problem, because emotions aren'tnecessarily problems to be
solved, but they are information.

(54:50):
They are.
We need to fill the emotion.
Trying to shut it up is liketrying to shut up a two-year-old
.
They're just going to screamlouder, right, come out in other
ways, but but I love whatyou're talking about with being
curious, you know, you.
You've talked about exploringthe Enneagram and learning more
about yourself, learning moreabout you know.

(55:10):
All of this is really sohelpful, I think, to everybody,
anybody that's listening,because learning how to be, to
look at ourselves with curiosity, to be willing to learn, to be
willing to, to make changes inour lives, even if it's
uncomfortable, is so importantto healing and so important to

(55:31):
recovery and to and to beingable to live a, you know, a
healthy, balanced life that willbring us joy instead of
constant strife.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
Right, and I think you know, I think the curiosity
also going back to your kids andhow you support them, being
curious with them too.
Yeah, who are you?
Show me who you are Like youknow, show me who you really are
.
What makes you tick?

Speaker 2 (55:54):
What are?

Speaker 1 (55:54):
you great at, what are you passionate about and
what do you need.
You know how do I support youbest.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Yeah, you have all the things that you're talking
about.
I love you creating spaces foryour children, teaching them how
to create spaces for themselveswhere they can feel safe and
where they can feel nurtured,and that, and helping them on
how to recognize their needs,doing the same thing for
yourself, like.
All of those things are socritical and often are things
that we don't consider, and so Ilove all the things that you've

(56:20):
shared today as we close.
What is the one thing that youwould encourage somebody who is
in a position like you maybe apartner, a spouse, a loved one,
who might be dealing with thesame kinds of things and don't
know where to start?
What would you encourage them?
What's the first thing youwould encourage them to do?

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Find your community Like 100%, it's like that's
everything, ours is, our church,that has been huge.
And then also find a greattherapist, that and realize that
you know, like, really look atyour calendar.
If you're a calendar person,really look at your calendar and

(57:01):
go, okay, how am I going totake care of myself?
Because you got to take care ofyourself, you got to prioritize
.
You have to prioritize takingcare of yourself If you're going
to be able to sustain thebattle, cause I mean, it's feels
like a war a lot of days.
It feels like a war.
It's like it's one of thehardest.

(57:23):
I think it's one of the mostcomplex relationships when the
person, when your spouse, whoyou know is supposed to be your
rock and your you know, I'm veryI can be very cynical about
this stuff.
When people are like, oh, he'smy best friend, he's my rock,
he's my everything, and I'm justlike I so struggle with that

(57:46):
because just the lack ofvulnerability that comes from
being in the fight or flightresponse so much, give yourself
a lot of grace, which has alsobeen really tough.

(58:09):
It's like give yourself a lot ofgrace and realize it's not
going to be overnight, thatyou're going to be okay.
It's a process and that's okay.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
So you are amazing.
Thank you so much for beingwilling to come on and share
this.
To be overnight, that you'regoing to be okay, it's a process
and that's okay.
So you are amazing.
Thank you so much for beingwilling to come on and share
this.
You've been extremelyvulnerable and shared incredible
insights.
I appreciate everything thatyou've shared and everything
that you're doing.
You're an amazing person.
I appreciate you so much.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Well, we appreciate you because I will tell you you
have been such a catalyst in howfar Travis has come in his
healing.
I mean, you've continuallypointed him to resources, to
True Hope, and oh my gosh,that's the other thing.
If your spouse, loved one, isnot on True Hope supplements,

(58:55):
please pick up the phone andcall True Hope today and start
that process.
I cannot wait for the day he'sable to be back on them because
he is a completely differentperson.
But not only that, not only theTrue Hope, but the other thing
you've done is just continuallygone to okay, that's a symptom
of trauma.

(59:15):
You've got healing to do.
You need to talk to yourtherapist about that, just
really pointing to true healing.
And you know, I was kind ofthinking the other day.
I'm like, well, maybe that'swhy God you know God made it to
where Travis had to come off ofthe micronutrients so that we
could have this time where we'relike, okay, let's objectively

(59:40):
look at our experience this time.
Instead of emotionallyresponding to everything, let's
just objectively look at it and,instead of being reactionary,
be curious and pausing andlooking at everything.
Your influence on that has beentremendous, tremendous, and I
cannot thank you enough.
I mean, I just I honestlycannot imagine where we would be

(01:00:05):
right now if Travis had notfound your podcast in January of
24 and started and started inyour program.
Um, I really I cannot imaginewhere we would be.
It has it has been a godsend,it has been a lifesaver and we
will be forever grateful for you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
Oh, thank you.
I'm feeling a little, a littleself-conscious now, but thank
you so much, sue.
You're amazing.
I appreciate it so much and Iwill.
Um, is there any any way thatway, that do you want to make
yourself available to people forthem to contact you, or how do
you want to do that?

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Yeah, I will.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
I'll drop my Instagram.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Yeah yeah.
Instagram account is probablythe best way to get in touch
with me.
I kind of avoid Facebook.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
So anyways, probably Instagram would be best.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Amazing.
All right, I'll put that in theshow notes.
Thank you so much, sue, anduntil next time, upsiders.
Hey, thanks for joining ustoday.
If you're ready to start onyour path to wellness with
bipolar, go to myupsideofdowncomand get your free mood cycle

(01:01:22):
survival guide four steps tosuccessfully navigate bipolar
mood swings.
If you're ready for more, checkout the map to wellness.
Until next time, Upsiders.
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