October 6, 2025 • 71 mins
We challenge the “gold standard” of therapy plus meds and show how nutrition, sleep, and curiosity reveal root causes that the psychiatric labels miss. Dr. Teralyn Sell shares her journey from traditional psychotherapy to functional brain health, and why feeding the brain changes everything.
• how siloed systems block simple solutions like omega‑3s
• the cost of medication‑first care on memory, mood and agency
• subjectivity in diagnosis and the loss of curiosity
• thyroid, UTIs, inflammation and blood sugar as symptom drivers
• amino acids and micronutrients to support neurotransmitters
• protein timing and cofactors for dopamine and serotonin
• small steps that work: blue‑light limits, steady protein, better sleep
• rebuilding identity and autonomy when tapering with support
• the pillars: eat, sleep, move, meditate for lasting change
Links:
website: WWW.drteralyn.com
TikTok: @dr_teralyn
Instagram: @Dr_Teralyn
Facebook: @dr_teralyn
Bio:
Today’s guest is Dr. Teralyn Sell, a PhD brain health expert, nutritionist & psych med deprescribing professional who is grounded in psychology and functional wellness. She has spent over two decades helping people untangle the root causes of mental health struggles. She’s known for her no-nonsense, science-meets-real-life approach to anxiety, depression, and stress, guiding people beyond symptom management into lasting change.
Dr. Teralyn is the cohost for the nationally acclaimed podcast, the Gaslit Truth and has been featured in national media, including television and radio, for her refreshing take on mental health, which combines neuroscience, psychology, and nutrition. When she’s not working with clients or speaking to audiences, you’ll find her enjoying time with her husband of 30 years, her three adult children, and her granddaughter, often somewhere on the Florida Gulf.
Her mission? To empower you to reclaim your brain, your body, and your life, without getting stuck on the medication merry-go-round.
Thanks for joining me on the Upside of Bipolar. For more resources, visit www.theupsideofbipolar.com. If you're ready to dive deeper, grab my book, The Upside of Bipolar: 7 Steps to Heal Your Disorder. If you're ready to heal your symptoms, join my monthly membership, The Upsiders' Tribe, to transform chaos into hope.
FREE Mood Cycle Survival Guide: https://theupsideofbipolar.com/free/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There has to be way more to mental health than just
talking your way out of aproblem.
And why is it that the the eventhe gold standard, right?
The gold standard is combiningtherapy with psychmeds.
That's the gold standard,folks, right?
That's what you hear.
However, the majority ofclients that a therapist will
see will be on medicationalready, majority.
But was I ever offered therapy,even though I was offered
(00:24):
psychiatric medication?
No, never.
So it's like the reciprocity ofthat gold standard doesn't go
back the other way.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to the Upside of Bipolar, where we uncover
the true sources of bipolarsymptoms and share proven tools
for recovery.
I'm your host, MichelleReitinger, number one
international best-sellingauthor of the Upside of Bipolar
Seven Steps to Heal YourDisorder.
In this podcast, I bring yousolo insights from my journey
and guest interviews withleading researchers and experts.
(00:58):
Join us to transform chaos intohope and reclaim your life.
Let's heal together.
Hey, welcome to the Upside ofBipolar.
I am your host, MichelleReitinger, and I have a
phenomenal guest today.
Today's guest is Dr.
(01:19):
Tarolyn Cell, a PhD brainhealth expert, nutritionist, and
psychmed prescribingprofessional who is grounded in
psychology and functionalwellness.
She has spent over two decadeshelping people untangle the root
causes of mental healthstruggles.
She's known for her no-nonsensescience meets real life
approach to anxiety, depression,and stress, guiding people
(01:40):
beyond symptom management intolasting change.
Dr.
Terolin is the co-host for thenationally acclaimed podcast,
The Gaslit Truth, a phenomenalpodcast, by the way, and has
been featured in national media,including television and radio,
for her refreshing take onmental health, which combines
neuroscience, psychology, andnutrition.
When she's not working withclients or speaking to
(02:02):
audiences, you'll find herenjoying time with her husband
of 30 years, her three adultchildren, and her granddaughter,
often somewhere on the FloridaGulf.
Her mission to empower you toreclaim your brain, your body,
and your life without gettingstuck on medic on the medication
merry-go-round.
Dr.
Terolin, I am so thrilled tohave you here today.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Thank you so much for being my guest.
Yeah, no problem.
I'm happy to be here.
If my mission in life now isjust to give a good message of
hope and change and all thethings.
Um, so I'm happy to be able todo that for your audience today.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah.
So let's start with, I want tostart with your story.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay.
So when we were talking, I'mlike, which story do you want?
Do you want my professionalstory, my personal story?
Uh the combination of the twois probably the most, I don't
know, powerful story, but I usedto be a very traditional
psychotherapist.
Like I my whole training andeducation was rooted in
(03:00):
tradition, like what you seetoday, in diagnosing, in you
know, manualized programs, CBT,DBT.
Uh, and then I switched intoEMDR stuff and all of that.
And um, I had been working inthe prison system in my state,
and that's where I received thistraditional training that I
(03:21):
had, also traditional inpsychiatry.
So we were the right-handpeople of the psychiatrist.
We were the eyes and ears ofpsychiatry, which was great
because I learned all aboutpsychmeds to a degree, right?
So we only learned about howgood they were, right?
Like promoting them, andthere's lots of manipulative
(03:41):
language that we also learnedthat is still people still use
it today.
At the time, I didn't know itwas manipulative language,
manipulative.
I just thought it was thelanguage we used, right?
Um, there one key change for mehappened.
There was a particular inmatewho was always in segregation
for fighting, like violent, allthese things.
(04:02):
So I'm researching and I'mlike, what?
When I say researching, I meanlike perusing the internet at
that point, right?
Like I'm I'm looking forarticles, I'm looking for
something to help withaggression.
And I happened to come across astudy.
And this study was kind of thething that changed things for
me, got my got my juicesflowing, if you will.
Um, it was a study done in ajail on aggressive inmates in
(04:26):
jail, and that would be theclosest to prison, right?
There's not a lot of researchdone in jails and prison because
they are one of the mostvulnerable populations, right?
So anyway, I saw this and itwas on omega-3 fatty acids and
how when they gave some of themost violent or aggressive
inmates in this jail omega-3fatty acids, that their
(04:47):
aggression reduced.
And I was like, I have hit theholy grail.
I have, I am going to bringthis research to the treatment
team, and this is gonna be aslam dunk of slam dunks.
So I brought it and I'm handingit out, and the psychiatrist
says, You're not a dietitian.
(05:09):
So I gathered it all back upand left, and that was pretty
much it.
I was instantly shut down bypsychiatry because I wasn't a
dietitian and I was talkingabout omega-3 fatty acids.
And I'm like, nobody wanted tolisten because the systems that
(05:32):
I was working in at the timewere so siloed that it don't
speak out of turn, don't speakabout something that, quote, you
don't know, blah, blah, blah.
Even though this was a researcharticle, it was good research.
And I was like, it's worth ashot, isn't it?
Like at this point, like theguys that we had were to get
more protein would eat a lot ofpeanut butter.
(05:53):
Like they were ordering peanutbutter off a canteen because
they were such low protein dietsin there.
And I'm I'm thinking, well, ifwe can do something, you you can
prescribe omega-3 fatty acids.
People do it all the time now.
But they were they refused.
So that was kind of thebeginning of like a little the
little morsel that kind of stuckin my brain.
(06:14):
And um eventually, um, and I'llget into my psyched story in a
minute, but after a while, Idecided I I rose to clinical
director and things like that ina different prison system and
decided that I just couldn'tmake the changes there that
needed to be made.
And I know that seems like a Icopped out, I left, I took a
hike, like I went out of therebecause it was systems that I
(06:36):
just couldn't, I could no longerin good conscious support if I
couldn't make a change, right?
That that could be good forthese people.
Anyway, so then I went intofull-time private practice and I
thought, well, this is gonna beeasy, right?
Like this is gonna be theeasiest thing.
Very quickly, I saw many womenparticularly uh come in who were
(07:00):
on multiple psychiatricmedications, multiple, multiple
classifications, and they weregetting worse and worse and
worse and deteriorating, as wecall it.
Um, and again, so I took to theinternet again, and this is
like early stage internet, likethis isn't how it is today.
Like you have access to so manythings.
(07:20):
And um, I happened to comeacross, and they're still here
today, the Alliance forAddictions and Mental Health
Solutions.
And the Alliance was doing alot of profound work with Julia
Ross.
I don't know if you have heardof Julia Ross.
Julia Ross was the author ofthe book called The Mood Cure.
And um, she was with theAlliance at this time, and they
(07:43):
were teaching people about aminoacids.
So, what I was feverishlysearching was things like, I
remember my search was like howto improve dopamine naturally,
how to improve serotoninnaturally, how to because at
that time, you know, we're stillthinking it's a deficiency in
these things and you know,whatever.
Um, so I was like, well, how dowe improve these, you know, the
(08:04):
mental state of peoplenaturally?
And that's I I happened to comeacross amino acid therapy, and
I was like, oh, this is it.
This is it.
And from there, I got deeplyinvolved in nutrition, went back
to nutrition school.
I I'm also like a lifelongstudent.
(08:24):
If someone would just pay mefor that job, I know, I would
just, you know, it would be mucheasier.
But unfortunately, I pay them alot uh to continue to get the
education that I need.
Because when you think aboutit, just you know, so I have a
PhD in psychology with anaddiction studies focused, and I
have a master's degree incounseling psychology.
(08:46):
We didn't talk about even howto make a neurotransmitter.
Like that wasn't part of, eventhough I'm studying addictions,
right?
I'm studying, but what theythey talked about dopamine, they
talk about serotonin, but theydon't say, like, from a
lifestyle perspective, how tohelp somebody improve the health
of their brain andneurotransmitters.
(09:07):
And that is that's still today.
There's no talk about nutritionin schools like that.
Like it's just void, it's justnot there.
So I knew inherently that inorder for me to bridge that gap,
I was gonna have to go seek outthat education elsewhere.
Um, and so that's what I did,and that's what I continue to do
(09:28):
today.
Um, but I think it should beincluded in all curriculum of
any mental health professional,social workers, therapists, all
of that.
Because right in our licensure,it says lifestyle.
Like, so I can ask you if youdrink caffeine or smoke a
cigarette, but I can't talkabout like, are you eating any
protein?
You know, like yeah, buildingblocks to neurotransmitters,
(09:51):
protein, easy.
That's not a hard conversation,but yet it's omitted in
education.
So anyway, so that's kind ofhow I got here.
That's the like abbreviatedversion of how I got here.
Um, my personal story is alittle different and it
continues to unfold because themore I interact with people now,
especially people who are onpsychiatric medications or
(10:12):
trying to get off of them, themore I piece together my own
story with health and my own umexperiences with psychiatric
medications.
And, you know, I'm in my upper50s now, so everybody's trying
to throw psych meds at me.
Everybody, anytime I go to thedoctor, they're like, here's a
psych med.
I'm like, get bent.
Like, no, I'm not gonna take apsych med for this, right?
Speaker (10:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
So I I feel like unless you are like as cynical
as I am sometimes, um, peopledon't confront that.
They just take it, right?
They'll just be like, okay,doctor said take it.
You know, especially menopausewomen are the biggest growing
group of you know, psychiatricmedication consumers.
So I'm right there.
Um, so now cautiously, ofcourse, when a doctor asks me
(10:57):
about things like fatigue, I'mlike, I'm fine.
Don't even bother.
Don't bother.
I'm I'm good, you know.
Um, but my it do, well, firstof all, I'm just rambling on
right now.
Do you have any questions aboutthat so far?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
No, I I do want you to get into your personal story
because I think that thosethings affect each other.
It's really fascinating.
That's actually one of thethings that that piqued my
interest in you when I firstfound you on social media was
all the stuff you're talkingabout with your personal story.
And I'm thinking, oh man, likea psychiatric professional, you
know, a psychologist and by byeducation that went through all
(11:35):
of these things, and I thinkthat those also seem to have had
a profound impact on the waythat you viewed mental illness
and the way that you view youknow your clients.
And so can you talk a littlebit about that as well?
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah.
So my first introduction topsychiatric medications
personally was when I was aboutfive months pregnant.
Um, I went to my OBGYN and uhshe had asked, Do you remember
feeling like you might have hadpostpartum depression with my
first pregnancy with my firstchild?
And I said, All I said was,yeah, I'm pretty sure I think
(12:08):
so, or something benign likethat.
It wasn't anything superprofound.
And by the end of that, so thisI was 32, I think.
This is way before I even gotmy master's degree.
I didn't start my master'suntil that child was one.
Okay, so this was way before Ieven knew anything of
self-advocacy or anything.
(12:29):
Um, anyway, so she gave me anantidepressant.
Am I allowed to say what it washere?
Sure, yeah, absolutely.
It was uh Zolof slashCertraline.
So it was just, it was a verytypical SSRI.
It wasn't a massive, you know.
Anyways, it but it still ismassive because I look at
everything now as a drug beforetreatment.
(12:50):
Okay.
So even when we say it wasjust, you know, a little SSRI,
that little SSRI can cause a lotof problems later on.
Um, anyway, so I was on thisand um I gave birth, which was
like a very dissociatedexperience.
Like I was so not connected toit.
And these are things that Ididn't realize at the time.
(13:12):
These are things that I'm like,I remember feeling these ways,
and I remember my son beingborn, and I just remember giving
him nonchalantly.
They put him on my chest, and Iimmediately gave him to my
husband and said, Go do what yougot to do.
I need to sleep.
Like I was just disconnectedfrom the entire experience.
And that is something that I doremember.
Okay.
He also had a lot of troublefeeding.
(13:34):
Um, he was almost uh, theyalmost it was very close to
putting him in the uh NICUbecause he would not feed.
And now I know why.
Okay, so sluggish feeding,inability to latch, all those
things is a big deal.
And so I also know now he waslikely going through his
withdrawal.
Um, but again, nobody wasputting those things together
(13:57):
for me at that time because iteverything it was just safe,
right?
Like it was just safe.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
It was nobody probably even knew.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Like, I don't think anybody's got curiosity had any
curiosity about that at thetime.
Not really.
It was it was quick after that,within a couple years, that
some lawsuits were starting tocome out about Zolofton
pregnancy.
Um, so that was interesting tome when I started seeing those
happen.
Um, but anyway, so all this isretrospective, right?
So some of the stuff, like Iwas so disconnected from my
(14:28):
life.
So I was on, I was on an SSRIfor the prevention of postpartum
depression for six years.
Speaker (14:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah.
Because then after, when youstart telling your doctor,
prescriber, like I kept saying,like, I don't feel good.
Like I just, I have nopleasure.
I have no, well, that'sdepression, you're depressed.
You you need more.
So, you know, so she would giveme more.
Eventually I started refusingmore because I was talking a lot
(14:59):
about I need off, I want off.
And so the resistance to getoff was the profound part.
No help, no nothing.
It was always, well, maybe youknow, this is your depression.
And I'm like, I think I knew Iknew that it wasn't like that
wasn't me.
That wasn't me.
I keep in mind I had kids athome and I was married and all
(15:22):
these things.
And um I wasn't me.
And again, retrospectively, uh,during that six-year period,
like I almost chucked mymarriage because I couldn't
connect to him, and I was areal, real bitch to be around.
Like, you know, theirritability, the negativity,
all of it was just it waspresent.
(15:44):
And um, I kept thinking it'severybody else, it's everybody
else, it's not me, it's my life,it's all these things.
It was the medication 100%.
Because when it took me aboutpeople ask, like, how long did
it take you to get off of that?
Blah, blah, blah.
What was that like?
I did it all the wrong waysbecause again, I didn't have the
(16:05):
help that I have now.
I was still stuck in a verytraditional system, right?
But I knew I needed off of it.
So what had happened was wemoved.
So we moved two hours orsomething from my prescriber.
So we moved away.
And I thought to myself, well,I'm not gonna drive back there
(16:26):
every, you know, six months toget a new script.
Um, so I either find a newdoctor to keep prescribing me or
I just to do it.
I just get off of it.
And so I just got off of it.
I cold turkeyed off of it.
Luckily, where I was workingwas a subset of the prison
(16:47):
system at this time.
It was a it was a kind of aprison within a prison, and it
focused a lot on wellness.
So there was lots of lifestylestuff and wellness and working
out.
And my office mate, I'll credither for this.
She was a big runner and shegot me into running.
This is all like simultaneousstuff, like, you know, divine
intervention, if you will, atthe exact same time of me coming
(17:09):
off of this.
She's she is jogging andtelling me, just come to the gym
with her because we had anon-site gym.
So I started going to the gymand I started jogging, I started
eating better.
I lost about a hundred pounds.
Like it was it within thecourse of a couple of years.
Speaker (17:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
And that was how I was successfully able to get off
of the psychiatric medicationand reconnect my brain to my
body.
Um, and I think all the workingout that I did really helped me
like consolidate all that backtogether without knowing that
that's what it was.
So yeah, so that was do I saydo that?
(17:48):
No, don't do that.
That was probably a really badidea.
That was a real bad idea.
But again, when you're in thespace of like desperation, and
at the time, again, these books,the Mousey deprescribing
guidelines, all there wasn'tFacebook groups for support.
There was nothing.
It was just your prescriber andyou.
And that was pretty much it.
(18:09):
And so you really had to kindof lean in to yourself during
these, during these times.
But I also think that probablybecause there was a lot of
trauma working in the spacesthat I was working in, um,
trauma that I saw, traumaticthings that I witnessed,
traumatic things that I wasinvolved with.
I think that I probablywouldn't have come out of it the
way that I did if I wouldn'thave been medicated, by the way,
(18:32):
and disconnected from myself.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Um, because I was so numb toanything.
Uh-huh.
Didn't bother me.
None of that stuff bothered meat all during that time.
It bothers me now because it myhumanity and my pleasure was
stolen from me for, you know,between six and eight years when
(18:54):
all was said and done, which isa huge part.
The biggest bothersome piecefor me was, you know, in order
to have a memory, like a goodmemory, like I had a young
family, you have to have reallystrong emotions to retain the
memory systems.
And I was so flat that I barelyremember anything.
And that that's my biggestregret of the entire thing is
(19:18):
the loss of time and memory withmy kids, and I don't know, the
the birth and all of it.
Like there's there's a lot,there's still some regret in
those moments, but um mostlyfelt lied to.
You know, like this issomething that you need.
And then suddenly I it was solike I go back to the story, it
was prescribed as apreventative, preventive,
(19:41):
preventative, I can't speak.
And then suddenly it turnedinto something that I needed for
the rest of my life.
Yes.
I didn't even have depressionat the time of the prescription,
but suddenly it turned into alifelong mental health condition
or disorder that I didn't evenstart with.
Was I depressed at during the100% medication-induced
(20:06):
depression?
But that's not how it waslooked at at all.
Yeah.
So yeah, but like I said, everytime now I go to the doctor,
like I've been presentedpsychiatric medications so many
times, and I think people canresonate with this.
When when I was about to leavethe prison system that I was at,
(20:26):
when I was about to leave, Iwas struggling in this conflict
place, like um what I needed andwhat the changes that I wanted
to do systemically weren'tpossible.
Um, so I had severe anxiety.
I had tons of anxiety, which bythe way, now could have been
protracted withdrawal.
(20:48):
Um, because it was still duringthat time frame.
Again, I didn't know thisstuff.
I I didn't have language tothese experiences.
It was just I suddenly had thisweird anxiety that I had never
felt before in my life.
I've never been an anxiousperson.
Um, but I was having panicattacks constantly in the car,
like all these things.
And so I went to the doctor andI was prescribed and I took
(21:11):
home the prescription foreffects are so an SNRI.
Um, I took it two times, so twonights, and I couldn't get up
out of bed.
I was so dizzy.
Um, I couldn't function.
And of course, what do theytell you?
Well, you gotta get used to it.
Yeah, or that you have to getused to your body needs time to
get used.
And I'm like, build up in yoursystem.
(21:33):
Or yes, I can't get up.
Like, I can't.
I had such bad like vertigo andnausea.
And so after two nights oftaking that, I was like, like
this little voice in my head waslike, You don't need this.
Like, this is not something youwant to get used to.
And by the way, I had just comeoff, not just, but a few years,
(21:55):
come off of an SSRI for allthat time.
So I was really struggling withthis idea that great, now I'm
gonna be stuck on this foranother who knows how long.
I really feel like I dodged abullet on the SNRI because those
are even worse to get off of.
Um, so I remember driving homeand I thought, you know what, I
can medicate myself through thisor I can quit.
(22:17):
And I came home and I said tomy husband, I said, I'm gonna
quit.
I'm gonna quit.
And he goes, Thank God.
And I was like, why didn't yousay that earlier that I had a
choice to quit?
You know, you know what I mean?
Like that it's a choice, youknow.
People, I want you to know itis a choice to do something
different.
You always have that choice.
(22:37):
We put our own barriers infront of ourselves.
And I tell people this too, andthis is how I live my life.
Everything is figure out, andit does get figured out.
That's what happens.
So I was able to quit, go intoprivate practice.
Things get weirder becauseseveral years passed and I have
thyroid problems.
I believe from my SSRIexperience, um, metabolic
(23:01):
things, thyroid thyroid, becauseit was one or two years into
medications that suddenly mythyroid got jacked.
I was pre-diabetic.
They're medicating me for that.
Like, I'm like, I was 33, 34 atthe time.
They're treating me like I was70, you know, with all of these
things.
And um everything cleared upexcept for the thyroid.
(23:23):
That's been something that Ihave had to struggle with for
the entinitis.
I have that too.
Um, but anyway, those things Ican live with.
So I know when my thyroid is inhypo, I have hypothyroid.
I know when it's in hypothyroidbecause I get very fatigued,
like I can feel it.
So I went to an endocrinologistbecause I was like, you know,
probably time to look at this alittle bit differently.
(23:44):
This is probably 10 years agonow.
And I sit down, she's like, Whyare you here?
And I said, Well, because I'mreally fatigued and you know, my
thyroid, blah, blah, blah.
And she's like, Well, we canrun some labs.
So keep in mind thisconversation is before any labs
were run.
Okay, we can run some labs.
And I was like, I've neverreally done that, never really
dug in.
(24:04):
And she goes, In the meanwhile,though, here is I can prescribe
you an antidepressant, astimulant, and a sleep aid.
Gosh.
In 20 minutes.
Yeah, I get such backlash onsocial media for sharing that.
No way, you were given astimulant like that.
I'm like, yeah, yes, way, yesway, 100%.
(24:29):
Because I said I'm fatigued.
All right.
So the automatic assumption isyou're depressed and you need
better sleep.
And you know, to also so youcan function better.
Here's a stimulant so you'renot so fatigued in in the
midday, right?
Yeah.
And I said, no, thank you.
Don't bother.
Don't bother.
I'm like, no, I need no, no,thank you, don't bother.
(24:52):
And she goes, then why did youcome in?
And I said, Because of mythyroid, maybe you're an
endocrinologist, whatever.
And uh, she did order the labs,thankfully, and turned out I
was in another stage ofhypothyroidism.
So, and I had very low vitaminD and B6 and B12.
And I'm like, that would nothave been resolved.
(25:13):
It probably would have beenworse if I would have taken that
stack of psych meds, right?
Yeah.
So I'm like, what the what theheck?
So for about 10 years I wasskating by without being offered
psychiatric medications untilprobably five months ago for
weight loss.
(25:34):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
For weight loss?
Okay, wait a minute.
Like some counterintuitive.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I I put on probably 50pounds from Zoloft by itself.
Yes, yes, yes, which nobodywants to believe that either.
And I'm like, believe it, ithappened.
But yeah, so they're like,well, you know, there's some
research out there that showsthat I think it was uh well
butrin.
Well butrin can help withweight loss.
I'm like, yeah, it can alsomake you crazy.
Yes, and uh can also make yougain weight, which is something
(26:05):
that will probably happen to me.
Yeah, yes, um, but yeah, I waslike, uh no, no, no, no, thank
you.
You know, so you you learn totemper conversations, right?
When you know the antidote, soto speak, is gonna be an offered
psychiatric medication.
And so when people talk like,well, you know, it's a mental
(26:28):
health diagnostic, they're notgoing through any diagnostic
criteria to give you most ofthese medications.
None.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It makes me so crazy.
That that makes me so crazy.
And and one of the things thatI love about like, first of all,
you have a fantastic book.
I want to make sure theaudience knows it's called Your
Best Brain.
Here it is, I'll show it.
It's yeah, it's fabulous.
I have my coffee right here.
She's got it tabbed.
I love it.
I've got yes, I've got allthese notes here.
So um, so I one of the thingsthat you mentioned this word
(27:01):
earlier, and I want to talkabout this because I think this
is one of the biggest issuesthat we have when people are
struggling with any kind ofsymptoms, you know, they they
get they get lumped into thesecategories and and then we are
then we diagnose them with adisease, right?
Speaker 1 (27:19):
So you have you know, you can never, ever, ever,
ever, ever, ever, ever healfrom, by the way.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yes.
Well, and it's and it's agenetic disease.
You know, we we have this, weget this idea that we don't have
any control over these things,that it's beyond our control.
And and so you get diagnosedwith, you know, my diagnosis
initially was uh depression andanxiety because I was so
depressed I couldn't even almostarticulate what was going on
with me.
I had an aunt with me that wasgiving a lot of information to
(27:45):
the doctor.
And when they put me on theantidepressant, my first
antidepressant was Zoloft.
And within a few months, I hadramped up into mania.
And oh, whoops, we misdiagnosedyou.
You have bipolar disorder.
And it's that's the biggestload of BS I've ever heard.
I know, and I was so angry.
I was so angry when I read whenI read Anatomy of an Epidemic
(28:07):
and I learned about like theprevalence of people getting
diagnosed with bipolar disorder,and then people say, Well, you
were misdiagnosed.
And I'm like, oh my gosh.
Like, there is no scientificbasis diagnoses.
They're right.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
You were misdiagnosed.
You shouldn't have had adiagnosis.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Exactly.
Accurate diagnosis.
I always ask the misdiagnose.
If somebody accuses you ofsaying you were misdiagnosed, I
always say, Okay, then whatconstitutes an accurate
diagnosis?
Because I was diagnosed byeight separate psychiatrists
over a 12-year period between mymy own psychiatrists and
hospitalizations and moves.
Every single one of themaffirmed the diagnosis of
(28:48):
bipolar starting with bipolartwo, and then later bipolar one
when I had a psychotic episodein a hospitalization, right?
And so what you're talkingabout with these, and you talked
about the same thing within theprison system.
We don't look at these, wedon't look at any of these
symptoms as individualindicators of an underlying
distress that might be biologic,you know, biological meaning
(29:11):
like your body's not getting thenutrition it needs, the brain's
not getting the nutrition itneeds, the your gut might be
messed up, you know, maybe,maybe you have unprocessed
trauma, maybe you've got, youknow, your your body has been in
fight or flight for so long.
You know, there's all of thesedifferent pieces that could be
addressed if we would stopdumping all of the symptoms into
(29:31):
into these into thesecategories that are then
identified as a disease thatmust be medicated.
unknown (29:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So I I want to ask you you did go through a
traditional psychiatrictraining, well, psychological.
But I mean within it's allwithin the same framework,
right?
Speaker 1 (29:50):
People get mad at me for this too.
You're not a psychiatrist.
Do you guys really think that Ididn't have to study
psychopharmacology?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yes, what?
Well, and also.
All of the education now, allof the education now is framed
within this disease mindset,everything.
So it's not just psychiatrists.
The psychiatrist, obviously,all of it is framed within the
disease mindset and this ideathat psychopharmacology, you
know, the pharma pharmacologicalsolution is the first line of
(30:19):
defense, and that's what needsto happen.
And all of the otherdisciplines that are support
kind of like desire, you know,it's it's kind of like a support
system for the psychiatry.
For psychiatry, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I want to know how you wherewhere the change came for like
(30:40):
did you start, were youquestioning within your
training?
Because it sounds like you gotthrough your training, you got
into your profession, and youwere still I did not question a
single thing.
Okay, so where did where didyou start questioning it?
Like, I want to know where thathappened because it's so rare,
really.
It is so rare to find somebodywho comes up through that system
who is even open.
(31:01):
And I know you talked a littlebit about it, but can you talk a
little kind of talk a littlebit more about when you started
questioning, like, wait aminute, maybe maybe this is
wrong?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
So I questioned it in the prison to an extent, right?
In part because uh again, partof one part of my job before I
hit the supervisor position wasdoing psyche valves.
That's all I did all day longwas psychiatric evaluations.
And I would spend hours uponhours sifting through
information, giving standardizedtesting, all these things to
(31:33):
come up with the properdiagnosis.
The only ones that would get tome for a psyche valve were the
ones that were question markdiagnosis, meaning they've been
diagnosed with just aboutanything and everything in the
DSM, and they don't know whattheir true diagnosis is.
Okay.
So then they would come to me,and I think I don't know if Jen
(31:55):
had that position the same.
We worked together actually.
Um, so I that they would cometo me or other uh practitioners
who had the same position as Idid and do the psyche valves,
right?
And so during that time, it itwas questionable because I kept
thinking like this is all justmy thoughts, really.
After you put together like thethe outcomes of the um the
(32:20):
testing and then their history,then it's just all me.
Then it's just it's still myview because it doesn't really
spit out, right?
Oh, this is the criteria.
It like if you if they gothrough like a computerized
program, which most of ours wereum hand scored, we'd scored
them by hand.
There were a couple thatweren't hand scored at that
(32:41):
time.
I'm sure there's more that arenot hand scored now.
Um, but they'll list outcertain ideas for you, right?
And then then based on theperson you go in, there's still
still such a subjective, youknow, piece to this.
So that was when I was startingto question like, this just
doesn't even feel real.
Like this doesn't even feelreal.
(33:02):
But I wasn't questioning itenough to be like, I gotta get
the heck out of here.
Like I I I wasn't doing thatbecause keep in mind I was
working for the state, like thatis a secure job.
That is a that is a sure thing,retirement, health care band,
the whole nine yards to leavethat.
Yeah, people thought I wascrazy when I walked away from
(33:25):
it.
They're like, You're walkingaway from the sure thing.
And I'm like, Yeah, I have to.
I have to walk away to savemyself.
Now I know that my like unresttoo was me working in a system
that I couldn't support, right?
So that was probably theturning point situation for me
because my body was literally uhphysiologically and just
(33:48):
emotionally rebelling againstgoing to work every day because
it was something that I just Istarted to not believe in,
right?
And let me get this clear it'snot that I don't believe in
mental illness or mental healthcare, it's that I didn't believe
in the systems that we had toalways work within in order to
(34:08):
change that for somebody, whichin those systems was mostly
medicated restraint.
Okay, so that was so muchmedicated restraint in there.
Um, so that was something thatI was like, this was weird.
There, there was another, like,there's a couple things that
really stand out to me.
One time was an elderly, um, hewas an elderly inmate.
(34:30):
I think he was around 70-ish atthe time, and overnight he
became psychotic overnight.
And everyone was like, he'sfaking it, he's faking it, he's
faking it.
Psychiatry swoops in, gives himantipsychotics, like
immediately.
And here's little me.
I go up to the guy, he was oneof my clients at the time, and I
went up to him and he waspsychotic for sure.
(34:51):
I knew this guy, and I turnedaround, I said, Did anyone check
for a UTI?
Sure as shit.
Oh my gosh, he had a UTI.
And I was like, little old mefrom the psychological unit has
to tell physicians, Did youcheck him for a UTI?
Right?
(35:12):
Like, he's elderly, like I knowthis stuff.
Like, you doesn't take a rocketscience to know that.
And so that that was alwaysvery curious to me, because I
was like, it doesn't make senseto just throw somebody doesn't
go psychotic overnight.
Come on, like this doesn't makeany sense.
So it was either he becamepsychotic overnight somehow and
some miracle at 70, or there wasan underlying condition, which
(35:33):
in no way, or he was faking it.
Like that, those were the onlyoptions to this thing.
So my introduction topsychiatry and psychology was
pretty cynical as well.
Like, so I'm I can be kind ofashamed at some of the things I
supported during during thosetimes.
And I think that was where mybody was like, don't do this,
you know, like this is not okay.
(35:54):
This is not okay.
Um, but really I I do when Itold you the story of the one
woman sitting on my couch whowould come in every week and on
more and more meds and worse andworse and worse to the point of
being suicidal.
And I was like, There's there'sgotta be another way.
Or when somebody came in, Iremember another one, and
they're put on suddenly put oncholesterol medications and
(36:16):
suddenly they were superdepressed.
Yeah.
And I was like, hey, I thinkit's the cholesterol med.
Yeah.
Oh, my doctor said no, no, no,no.
And I'm like, I don't know.
So then they went off, andguess what?
Depression remitted, like, youknow, and I'm like, okay, so
like I'm on to something.
And so that's really like Iwish there were like one
(36:37):
epiphany moment where I waslike, enough, you know, but I
think it was a series of thingsthat shifted.
And I also felt like as atherapist, that I just couldn't
do enough.
And I remember stumbling acrosssome things about, you know,
um, it's not a deficiency inRitalin or it's not a Zolof
(36:59):
deficiency or whatever.
And then I kept thinking, like,there has to be way more to
mental health than just talkingyour way out of a problem.
Speaker (37:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
You know?
And why is it that that the theeven the gold standard, right?
The gold standard is combiningtherapy with psych meds.
That's the gold standard,folks, right?
That's what you hear.
However, the majority ofclients that a therapist will
see will be on medicationalready, majority.
But was I ever offered therapy,even though I was offered
(37:30):
psychiatric medication?
No, never.
So it's like the reciprocity ofthat gold standard doesn't go
back the other way.
So now, of course, in mycynicism, I'm like, right,
because you were creatingpsychiatric soldiers in us,
right?
Go get on psych meds, go get onpsychmeds, which basically
erodes confidence in atherapist, right?
(37:51):
Because it's like, oh, you getto a certain place and you have
to refer to psychiatry becauseyou can't cut it after this
place.
And I'm like, but I think youcan.
I I think you can, you know, soI totally understand what
you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Like there wasn't one moment because even with my own
progression through like myawakening, my like my it's you
know, I talk, I talk aboutanatomy of an epidemic being my
red pill moment, but truly Ilike I had had suspicions for
years and things didn't makesense to me, but I didn't have
enough confidence in my ownintuition to like do anything
(38:29):
about that, right?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Nor support, nor support.
Like, imagine somebody like mein the prisons.
I I brought in research aboutomega-3 fatty acids and was
pretty much laughed out of atreatment plan room, right?
Yeah, and so imagine oneperson, little old me, trying to
like change a system or a wayof thinking.
(38:51):
Never, never, never would be.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
You know, in one moment.
And even over time, like I whenI started, when I started my
blog to try and share what I waslearning, I was still super
hesitant.
Like I would, I was never gonnasay like psych meds are causing
problems because I thought,well, maybe some people do need
psychiatric meds, and maybe it'sjust me that was, you know,
that benefited from getting offof them.
And so I was so afraid to tostart being more confident in
(39:36):
what I was learning because Iwas still afraid that maybe
there was this population thatstill needed these things, and
so I didn't want to like And bythe way, I gotta say, well,
there might be, but there's alsoa population that is very
harmed, right?
And the thing is it's liketaking, it's like playing
Russian roulette with your brainwhen you take these psychiatric
(39:57):
medications because it'sabsolutely yes.
Well, and the other thing is isthat there is when we have
these diagnoses, there is itcompletely eliminates any
curiosity into what actuallymight be causing the symptoms.
Right.
So people stop being curiousbecause they think they've been
given an answer.
When when somebody is diagnosedwith depression, when they've
been diagnosed with anxiety,when they've been diagnosed with
(40:18):
bipolar schizophrenia, theythey stop being curious and they
stop looking for answersbecause they think they've been
given an answer.
All they've been told is thatthey have this cluster of
symptoms, but they think thediagnosis means you have a
broken brain.
Yes, you have a disease.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
They think it means if you have if you have a
diagnosable mental healthcondition in the DSM, the
funneled meaning is I have abroken brain.
Yes.
And that's what it is.
Like it, and what once youbelieve that you have a broken
brain because somebody diagnosedyou with a broken brain, that's
(40:53):
now the paradigm that you'regoing to live in and move in for
the rest of your life untilsomething might happen to say,
maybe I don't, you know, maybethis doesn't.
Or or when you start off withdepression, you end up with
anxiety, bipolar disorder, allthese other things, right?
It's like that has to makesomebody curious, right?
(41:15):
Because it's like that wasn'tmy originating thing, right?
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Well, and it's interesting because I I whenever
I would ask these questions, soyou know, starting off with
depression and anxiety, and andI and once I had the paradigm of
bipolar, then my brain wentback and looked for evidence
earlier.
And so I could see evidence.
So I'm like, oh yeah, but ifyou go back into my life, you
can see when I would go throughthese periods of depression and
(41:39):
then I would get really elevatedin my mood.
And so I would our brain goesback and tries to make sense of
our lives based on this this newparadigm that we've been given,
right?
But it is so it is so harmfulbecause it there are two things.
Naturally, as human beings, Ithink that there is we don't
really love to takeresponsibility for ourselves.
(42:00):
Like it's we don't.
I mean, it's just I you know,if if I can if I can get out of
being responsible for somethingand blame it on something else,
I will.
Like that's just a lot ofthings.
I did that for years.
Yes.
And so if I can so I think itappeals a little bit to part of
us, part of our being, becausebecause then we're not there,
I'm not responsible for thechoices that I made when I was
(42:20):
manic or when I was depressed,or I'm not, you know, it's or
even the idea that my brain isbroken.
Yes, like there's I it's not myfault.
Like it's not my fault, and Ithat's just the way I am, right?
Um, but there's also, I think,also part of us, part of our
soul take uh receives itsfeelings of value and self-worth
from personal accountability.
(42:41):
So when you take that personalaccountability away from people
and they are doing destructivethings to people around them and
they're they're saying, well,it's not my fault, part of them
is feeling like, well, yeah, butlook what I'm doing.
You know, there's there's partof us and we start to feel
terrible about ourselves becausewe can't hold it, we can't have
a healthy relationship, orwe're hurting our families, or
(43:02):
you know, and so one of thethings I love that you do in
your book is you go through cat,you know, category by category
and help people start toidentify what could actually be
the sources of your symptoms.
And it's so powerful becausethe way you talk about it too is
not just you're not justtelling them, like, for example,
(43:23):
you're not just telling themyou need to eat healthy, you're
telling them why and what itdoes to your brain.
I love how you go through andyou talk about, and this is
actually something I want totalk about.
You talk about theneurotransmitters and you talk
about imbalances, and we knowthat I I want to talk about this
because I there are we can getour our neurotransmitters can
(43:45):
get out of balance because we'renot giving them the building
blocks they need to function ina healthy way, but that is not
the same thing as the chemicalimbalance theory of depression,
right?
So I want to ask you, can youtalk about that?
Because in your book you talkabout the different
neurotransmitters, the differentkinds of imbalances you can end
up with, and what can lead tothose imbalances.
And you also, the other thing Ilove that's brilliant, I've
(44:08):
never seen this before, is thatyou go through and you identify
symptoms that can be indicatorsof these imbalances.
So that's straight from Julia.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
That's that's straight from Julia Ross, by the
way.
That's how I was trained to doit.
Yes.
And that's what that's what Ido in practice now, too, is when
it when we track symptomology,is use those checklists, right?
Like use them.
So you're welcome to use them,right?
They're not mine.
Like the this is not TerylynCell's, you know, mastermind
(44:37):
here.
That stuff was was in trainingsthat I took, and that's why it
stoked me because it can be verypowerful.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Well, and the other thing, sorry, one other thing
that I want to just since thisis like a good place to say
this, is it is calling outspecific symptoms instead of
lumping them into buckets,right?
So instead of instead of sayinglike I have anxiety, you are
calling out like racing thoughtsor you know, and they're all
and all these different symptomscould actually be related to
different neurotransmitters.
(45:04):
So we lump them all into thisbucket and and throw
psychotropic drugs at them, andit can actually like make
everything go haywire becauseyou're not actually addressing
the issue.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah.
I I mean, from a fundamentallevel, the whole psychiatric
medication thing doesn't evenmake sense.
I know.
You're you're you're going tothrow a pill at every
psychological problem.
The same meds are used fordepression as anxiety.
Like, how how does that evenmake sense as far as like
(45:35):
individual care?
It it it makes no sense to me,you know, except for
benzodiazepines, but I'm talkingabout like your traditional
antidepressants are also used asanti-anxiety meds.
Make that make sense, right?
When when it could be youranxiety is a dopamine-related
issue, too much dopamine, right?
(45:56):
Too much or epinephrine, or uhagba-related issues, too high,
too low.
You know, one of theinteresting things about
neurotransmitters that you know,that checklist, one of the
things we have to think about issometimes lower serotonin looks
like higher serotonin.
Like sometimes, like there'sthis, there's this thing that
(46:16):
happens, and it's like, well,maybe.
So now I do a lot morefunctional lab work when I do
it.
Very minimal.
Like some people go likethousands of dollars into
functional lab work, like likethey're gonna find some holy
grail somewhere.
I don't like I do basic stuff,and that is very powerful
things.
But if you're just a person andyou're like, listen, I want to
(46:38):
figure out what's happening withmy mood, these checklists are a
really good way to do thatbecause they do, they separate
out like neuro neurotransmitterbasics.
I find most people that havedepressive type symptoms like
low mood, lethargy, just blah,are more in the dopamine pathway
than the serotonin pathway.
Give someone a littleL-tyrazine and they're gonna
(47:01):
perk up.
Yeah right.
But instead, we have to givethem an SSRI, change the way
their brain communicates.
Why don't we just feed it?
Why don't we just give it thenutrients that it might need and
want?
Like, I feel like when yourmood is a certain way, whether
it's like anxious or low, likethat's really your body calling
for nutrients.
(47:21):
Like it's calling for help andsupport, right?
And so on the basic level, likeeverything is connected to
everything else.
Stress, right, impacts all yourbody systems from your hormone
to your thyroid toneurotransmitters.
So if we go back to like whatis your stress load?
So we have nutritional stress,so dietary stress, inflammatory
(47:43):
stress, and emotional stress.
That's stress, right?
But in today's world, we'relike, oh, I'm so stressed out.
Like every, everything, thestress is like this giant
bucket.
I'm like, well, what is it?
Like, what is the stress thatyou're talking about?
Well, the person in the carnext to me this morning on the
way to oh, things you can'tcontrol?
You know, like so, but reallywhen we think about like how do
(48:06):
we manage our stress?
Do we you do we use food asfuel?
Um, do we look at if there's aninflammatory or infection type
thing going on?
We need to.
That's huge.
Inflammation is a huge piece ofmental health, um, especially
bipolar and schizophrenia andthings like that.
They look at uhneuroinflammation a lot,
depression's coming forward withthat, and then your emotional
(48:29):
stress that you're under.
So whether it's trauma, right?
Historic trauma, or even justbad relationship or a work
environment, like again, takinga step back and being like, I
have some choices and how I'mgonna manage this.
And I'll share the day that Imade the choice to leave my job
like that, I still had two weeksleft to work.
(48:50):
I had to give a two-weeknotice, whatever.
So I still had two weeks leftto work.
Those two weeks, I didn't givea shit about anything.
I was like, I can come in andout of here and I am cool as a
cucumber, you know, like becauseI knew I made the change that
my body was craving for me tomake, you know?
Yeah.
And I also think that we getnutrition a little wrong now
(49:10):
because diet culture has kind ofwrecked that for us, right?
Nutrition is only looked at asa way to lose weight.
Yes.
Right?
Especially with women, weightloss, weight loss, weight loss.
And um, we have to startlooking at it as a way to fuel
our brain and body instead oflose weight.
Yeah.
Women women in particular arevery upset when I start talking
(49:33):
about eating more or morenourishing foods because they're
like, I gotta lose weight, Igotta lose weight.
How am I gonna lose weight ifyou're making me eat more
protein?
And I'm like, well, then yougotta make a decision, you know?
You you gotta make a decision,you know.
Do you want to feel likegarbage, right?
Or do you want to try somethingnew, you know, that maybe will
(49:53):
give you a little bit moreenergy so you can go for that
walk that you wanted to go for,or lift weights without being so
fatigued, or you know, justattend to your life and family
because you're clear-headed, youknow.
So I don't know.
Don't know if that answers youryour question, but your
neurotransmitters are based inthe fuel that you give your
body.
Yes.
That's the bottom line.
That that is it.
(50:14):
That was not taught to me inschool.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yeah.
Well, and and one of the thingsthat's so interesting, this I
so there's a the book, TheBetter Brain, that is Dr.
Bonnie Kaplan and Dr.
Julia Reckledge.
Which is funny because you hadyou said that on it and it was
sitting right next to me.
It is so good.
This is such a good one.
And it's so crazy.
All the different things thatthey discovered as they're doing
all this research, all thedifferent, all the different
(50:38):
ways that poor nutrition affectus.
You know, that the researchthat they've done, I think, in
like in um people that arestruggling with addiction, you
know, that, you know, somealcohol addiction and drug
addiction and cigarettes andthat, and they try and try and
try to get over theseaddictions, and then they're
given micronutrients, and all ofa sudden they're able to just
stop.
(50:59):
You know, like it's ourpendulum in our society has
swung so far into the medicationand medical mindset that we
have forgotten all of the stuffour ancestors knew intuitively,
and all of the things we'veforgotten that our body needs
fuel.
Yes.
Yeah, I've had a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
Food is optional.
Food is optional now, and thatstarts in high school.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
That well, and it's and the thing that's the thing
that's interesting is that wehave it's like this this great
mystery that all of a suddenthere's this dramatic increase
in the number of peoplestruggling with mental health
issues, but we're not looking atthe way that our our diets have
changed just just in mylifetime, just in our lifetime.
We've had like when I was awhen I was a teenager, we I grew
(51:43):
up in California, and we usedto go as a family would go to
their their farmer's market,their farmer's market.
It is not like a farmer'smarket today.
This is like a true farmer'smarket where you could buy like
a box of apples or a box, like ahuge box of them for like six
bucks, right?
And and we were eating likewhole foods all the time just
naturally.
Like that was just the naturalway that you ate.
(52:04):
And it was, you know, a specialthing to have like cold cereal,
you know, like the cereal atthe in the boxes at the store or
something.
Now we are eating almost in oursociety is eating almost
exclusively from the inner partof the of the um store, the
grocery store, which is allprocessed foods.
It's been completely strippedof all the nutritional value.
(52:24):
And so I that's one of thethings I love about in your book
is that you talk about not justin nutrition, but you talk
about what the differentnutrients are in the different
kinds of food and what they'redoing in your brain and your
body.
And that is so powerful becausewe don't even understand any of
this stuff.
The food pyramid did a hugenumber on our on our society.
It really messed up what we,you know, the way that we eat.
(52:47):
And then we all get fat and andyou know, mentally ill, and
everybody's like, And we wonderwhy that's yeah, we wonder why
we've wrapped in an enigma.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
You know, I mean, just for the little science
lesson for everybody to to makeserotonin, you need foods that
are higher in tryptophan, whichare typically your poultry and
some nuts and uh cheeses andthings like that.
But then you also need vitaminD, vitamin C, vitamin B6,
(53:17):
methylated folate, like you needall of these new, they're
called nutrient cofactors, haveto be in place in your diet in
order for tryptophan to turninto serotonin and then for
serotonin to turn into melatoninto help you sleep.
And so once I can like paintthe picture, like here's the
picture of why nutrients areimportant, right?
(53:39):
It's not just protein, it'sother nutrients as well.
Then people kind of go, really?
I had no idea why food was soimportant just for that brain
health level, period, right?
Yeah, I had no idea.
Or just balancing your bloodsugar so you're not doing ups
and downs and ups and downs allday, which by the way, I think
(54:01):
is why so many high schoolersare getting diagnosed with
bipolar disorder.
Yes, because I think it's moreof a blood sugar dysregulation
than anything else.
Yeah, because they are high andthey are low and they're all
over and they're volatile andthey're aggressive, aggressive,
and things like that withoutgoing down a rabbit hole.
I think that's kind of a basicthing to look at.
I have when you have kids thatuh in school are having
(54:21):
behavioral problems, right?
In school, I have historically,I don't work with kids anymore
in therapy, but I would write inthe with IEP teams protein
breaks every two hours tostabilize blood sugar.
Yeah.
You want to know what happenednext?
Kid wasn't in the principal'soffice anymore.
(54:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shocker when you actually fuelthem and don't start their day
with a sugary cereal.
Yes.
So that by 10 o'clock they'rein a sugar slump, and then
adrenaline kicks in by 11 andthey're kicking desks around.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Well, and I left the I love there's a story in your
book that you talk about amother who had a daughter who
was like 17 or 18.
I think she was about to go tocollege and she was having like
she couldn't focus.
You know, she was having issueswith like her energy and sleep
and all of these things.
And you I'm trying to remember,I think you I think you you
(55:17):
started with I this is anotherthing I loved about this story
is that you talked about how youdidn't make big changes all at
one time.
You just did a little bit, youdid a little bit of change with
with um giving her amino aminos,right?
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Probably amino acids.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
Amino acids, and then and then you no blue light
after nine o'clock, you know.
And so then after a little bitof time and there's you know
started to see some improvement,then you made a little bit
more, you know, a couple moreadjustments.
And it completely changed her.
You know, you had they talkedabout you talking there about
how like people in the familycouldn't handle being around her
because she was so like out ofcontrol and volatile.
(55:52):
Yeah, and and then so she wasable to like be around the
family and be calm, and itcompletely changed the way that
she behaved, and it completelyand then she also was able, this
is another thing that I thoughtwas fascinating.
She had a really hard timestudying.
You you know, you talk aboutthere about how she couldn't
focus and it was really hard forher to get get herself going
with her studying, but once allthese things balanced out, she
(56:13):
was able to sit down right awayand get right to work on her
studies.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
I think that's the problem, is that we think that
we have to do everything inorder to make a difference.
And I I do think like socialmedia has done a terrible job
with lifestyle changes to makepeople think they have to be
perfect and do it all.
And I'm a huge believer in findthe low-hanging fruit that's
gonna make the biggestdifference for somebody and go
(56:39):
for that.
And go for that.
Like, like if uh, you know, ifyou're on social media from
midnight to 2 a.m., go for that.
Like stop that first.
Like, stop that for that islow-hanging fruit, people.
Like, stop those things first.
Or if you you know start yourday with caffeine and you don't
eat anything till five or sixwhen you get home, low-hanging
(57:01):
fruit, protein every threehours, just something small.
You know, this this doesn'thave to be rocket science.
And I I think that's why peoplestill struggle because they're
like, oh, I know I need to makeall these changes.
Because I do think peopleunderstand what changes they
need to make.
You you cannot tell me thatsomebody is up till 2 a.m.
on TikTok.
(57:21):
If I talk to them, they'regonna be like, Yeah, I know, I
know, I know.
They they know, like youinherently know, or somebody who
drinks too much alcohol, theyknow.
They know, you know, you feelit, you feel it in your body,
not a day goes by that you don'tthink about it, you know.
But I think because it feels sooverwhelming to make all of the
changes, um, that we make noneof the changes.
(57:45):
And there's nobody out theresaying, you know what, it's okay
to make one or two changes.
Nobody's saying that, nobody'sgiving you permission to do one
or two different things.
It's like, oh, I have to go tothe gym six days a week, you
know, that's the only way.
And I'm like, or maybe let'sstart with walking to your
mailbox.
Yes, yes, let's start withthat, you know.
(58:07):
But we have these grandioseideas of what health and
wellness means, you know.
And so then it that's sopreventative in the way people
actually need to live.
Like that that will get in theway of you making any change
whatsoever if you view it to beso big and overwhelming.
So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
Well, and I think I think that one of the other
things that I that I thinkhappens is we have been so
steeped in this like magic pillsyndrome in our society that we
just want a pill.
We just want somebody to giveus a pill so we can just go
about our life and not not haveto make any of these changes or
face like processing trauma oryou know, being personally
(58:45):
accountable and responsible inour lives.
And I and this is not a dig atpeople.
I I I've been there, like I'vebeen there myself.
I've been there too.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
I've been there too.
I I think the hardest pill toswallow is the pill of
accountability, right?
Like you know that you have tomake some changes, so just kind
of do the inventory and be like,I'm gonna pick one thing off
this list that I know that Iabsolutely need to do, which is
why even in the um the chapterabout sleep, like there's a
whole bunch of ideas.
(59:12):
Pick one or two, yeah, youknow, pick one or two that you
know would make a big differenceor even a small difference and
see how you feel.
Speaker 2 (59:20):
Like, well, and the other thing, the other thing you
talking there about is um likeso GABA, for example, I that's
one of the things that was thathelped to kind of fix my
circadian rhythm.
You know, it's I think that wewhen our especially if
somebody's if somebody's been onpsychotropic medications,
everything gets so screwed upthat when you Well, you
(59:42):
definitely have imbalances now,like you are definitely
imbalanced.
So then so now now not onlywere the issues that that caused
you to get diagnosed with thesethings in the first place still
still raging, those are stillthere.
But now you've got all theseother issues on top of that
because now everything has beentotally screwed up with the
psychotropic drugs.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I so I I think thatlittle things that you talk
(01:00:04):
about, about you know, changing,you know, fixing your gut
health and changing your diet,and you know, just making you
know little changes here andthere and the amino acids, I
think, and and micronutrients,you know, taking a really solid
micronutrient supplement thatstarts to give your brain what
it needs so that your brain canstart to heal, that that was a
(01:00:25):
huge game changer for me.
Once I got on micronutrientsand got off of the psychotropic
medications, and I'm I'm gonnaput this caveat in there.
I Dr.
Sal has already mentioned this,but I'm gonna say it again.
If you want to come offpsychotropic medications, you
need an expert to guide youthrough that process.
So you can do anything.
100.
I am not, do not any nobodylisten to this and say, okay,
I'm just gonna stop taking mydrugs because that is.
Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Don't do that.
Like, don't do as I say, not asI do.
Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Yes, yes.
But getting all of that out ofthe way, like I couldn't, I
tried therapy for years while Iwas on drugs and it I hated it.
Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
Can't talk your way out of a physiological problem.
No, like that's that's my wholething.
I also wanted to bring in thisidea that I put in the book
right away is that we have tolook at things from a different
lens.
So good, better, best choices,right?
And some days are gonna be goodenough.
Okay.
(01:01:23):
So this gives us leeway.
So hopefully we'll startchoosing the best options more
frequently.
But if we can choose best oncea week and the rest are good and
better, and then we have a dayof good enough, you know.
The problem is that a lot ofpeople go down into the well,
that was just good enough,right?
Yeah, every day is just a goodenough day.
And I'm like, listen, you canmake it better by choosing, you
(01:01:46):
know, one.
I'll I'll give an example.
I was in uh I was doing abiology because I'm a forever
student.
And so I went back to school tolearn biology.
Anywho, that was a whole thing.
And uh it was like nutritionalbiology, and this was just like
uh a year and a half ago.
And we had to put in, she wehad a tracker and we had to put
in our food for the day withoutjudging it.
(01:02:06):
And so I put in, it was a itwas a crappy day.
I ate pizza, I had some otherthings that just weren't good.
And then we had to put in onefruit or one vegetable to see
how the nutritional profile ofthe day changed.
And so I put in an apple, youknow, I'm like, okay, I'll just
put it in apples, see how itchanges.
The entire nutritional value ofthe day changed.
And so I know when typically mythinking anyway is, oh, I've
(01:02:31):
had a crap day of food.
What is it gonna matter if Ieat an apple now?
Yeah, what is that gonnamatter?
It's not gonna outdo the crappyfood that I already ate today.
And then I did this littleexercise and I was like, it
actually matters a lot.
It matters quite a lot.
Yeah.
Um, will it outdo what you'vealready?
No, it won't outdo, but it'lladd some nutrition into your day
(01:02:54):
that you greatly need.
So when you think about thegood, better, best, good enough,
if you have a day of kind of ajunk food day or whatever, if
you want to add in one fruit orone vegetable, that is gonna
change your whole nutritionalprofile for the day.
And that will put you into thegood category.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
At least a little bit insteadof giving yourself permission
(01:03:17):
all the time.
Oh, it's just a good enoughday.
Yeah.
You know, we can we can dosomething to move the needle up
and down in the good, better,best category.
And I feel like that givespeople a little bit of grace and
a little bit of wiggle room tonot be perfect, right?
Because perfection withnutrition is uh setting setting
up for failure.
(01:03:37):
Yeah.
That's in my opinion, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Well, and I think that I one of the things that I
think it uh your book reallyhelps me to, you know, helps to
highlight.
And I it's the same thing for,you know, in my book and the the
coaching program that I do, itreally, it really is.
If you're serious abouthealing, if you've been
struggling with mental healthissues, you're on psychotropic
medications, especially, if youwant to improve, you really need
(01:04:01):
somebody to work with you.
You need somebody that's gonnahelp you through this process
because it's hard enough to doit with somebody's help.
But if you're doing it, ifyou're trying to do it entirely
by yourself, like it's gonna beso easy to give up and just
think, I'm just not feeling anybetter.
I just need to go back to thepsych doctor and get some more
meds, right?
Yeah.
And so because it's you'repeeling back layers of this
onion and and it takes time andyou and it's helpful to have an
(01:04:24):
outside set of eyes, somebodythat's gonna look, you know, I
look at things and help you tosee things more clearly.
Because a lot of times we livewith these symptoms for so long,
they just feel normal.
And so you don't even know.
Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Yeah, you don't know.
You don't just like living withinflammation, you don't realize
how inflamed you are untilyou're not inflamed anymore.
Yes, and then you becomeinflamed again.
You're like, whoa, yeah, thisis terrible.
That's my body with gluten,right?
Like gluten impacts mehorribly, and I didn't know it
until I took it away, and then Iput it back in, and I was like,
(01:04:55):
Oh my god, this is profound.
Yeah, this is profound, but youdon't know when you're living
in the confines of your ownbody, right?
Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
So So when somebody when somebody comes to work with
you, how do you start thatprocess?
Like, what does that look like?
And what is what is workingwith you look like?
Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
Uh a lot of curiosity.
Um, because I we found that thebiggest key is really
understanding somebody'shistory.
Like, how did you get here?
Because it's very interestingbecause often the reason why
someone is prescribed something25 years ago has nothing to do
(01:05:33):
with what they look like today.
Like if you were prescribedsomething when you were 15
because you know you'restruggling through school or
something like that, you are nolonger 15 struggling through
school.
You haven't been 15 strugglingthrough through school in 25
years, right?
So getting a real strong,detailed history, I think, has
(01:05:53):
been one of the most powerfulthings and learning the right
questions to ask.
Because if you don't ask,people don't ask questions at
all.
Like they're just like, Oh, howare you feeling?
I'm fatigued.
Here's some meds.
Thanks.
Bye.
You know, they they don't ask,like, why do you think you might
be feeling fatigued?
Have you ever felt fatiguedbefore?
Do you have a history ofinfection of any sort?
(01:06:14):
Were you up in the Northwoodsin Wisconsin recently?
You might have Lyme's disease,you know, like all these
questions, like you have to getsuper invested in the person's
story in order to peel it backand understand it.
So that's really what it is.
And so for me, there's twodifferent people that I really
love working with.
(01:06:34):
The one is just wants toimprove the health of their
brain, right?
The other one wants to get offof the psychiatric medication.
And so getting off psychiatricmedication isn't just, you know,
here's what you have to do toreduce your medication, but
yeah, it is unwinding thepsychology of everything.
Yeah, it is going through thegrief.
You've lost a lot of your life.
What are you gonna be now?
(01:06:55):
It is focusing on the pillarsof mental health in the book,
eat, sleep, move, meditate.
It's yeah, all of that, okay.
And reacquainting people withdecision making on their own
body is a big part of it becausethis whole time you have been
offloading your decisions ontoother people, you know?
The doctor says, do this,therefore I do that.
(01:07:16):
Right.
So it's reclaiming your ownpersonal agency and ability to
advocate and just sense of self.
So that is all kind of wrappedup into there.
I do, like I said, I dofunctional lab work as well.
Um, we look at functionalneurotransmitter and cortisol
levels, and you know, go get aphysical examination.
(01:07:36):
Yes.
And in that physicalexamination, I'm also gonna add
in a whole bunch of labs that Iwant your doctor to include to
make sure they're there so thatwe know everything.
Yeah.
Because how often, you know,when you go to mental health,
they're not even looking at yourphysical well-being.
They're they're not evenlooking at any of that.
It's all in your head.
(01:07:56):
Well, I'm here to tell youfolks, your head is connected to
the rest of your body by yourneck.
Like, yes, it's all connected.
It's done.
And psychiatric medicationdoesn't know where your head is
compared to your your gut oryour heart.
Like it doesn't know, it justgoes wherever there's a receptor
for it, right?
So it's not a heat-seekingmissile, which is why people
(01:08:19):
are, oh, it's just a brainthing.
And I'm like, it is not though.
I know it is not, I know, youknow.
So wherever there's a receptor,that medication will go and
impact.
So, and those receptors are allover your body.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
So I can talk to you for hours.
I I am so fascinated by yourexperience and and your
education, and we're like sosimpatico because I'm like,
You're spit, you're singing mysong, sister.
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
I know.
Hopefully it resonates withyour listeners too.
But I'm confident well.
Yeah, I'm not gonna, you know,hijack this, but um, I am
willing to give away a couplecopies of my book to anybody,
your listeners.
That's it.
If you wanna yeah, if you wannahave them do something, I don't
know, you can decide what youwant them to do to get it.
So I'd be happy to happy tosend them out for you.
Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
And I I would encourage people to buy it.
Like it, it is so worth it.
I've actually bought two, Ibought I bought a physical copy
and then I bought uh I hadbought an electronic copy and
then I started reading.
I'm like, no, I need a physicalcopy.
I need to highlight, I gotta goresearch this more.
You know, it was just, it's sowell written.
It's so great.
Thank you so much.
(01:09:24):
I want everybody, you everybodyneeds to follow you.
So where can they find you?
Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Uh, so all of my social medias are the same.
My uh TikTok, Instagram,Facebook are the the three big
ones.
Um and it's just all Dr D Runderscore Terra Lynn,
T-E-R-A-L-Y-N.
I'm the only Dr.
Terra Lynn out there, so you'llfind me.
unknown (01:09:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
And it's and you have like such great content on you
know on your social media andthat.
And go listen to her podcast.
It is, it is so good.
And it's you have to, it's likethis is this is your this is
your red pill.
Like if you haven't had yourred pill yet, this, this, this
will start that, you start youon that journey because the the
guests that you have on thereare so phenomenal, and it really
(01:10:05):
does help kind of pull back thecurtain and show us the great
and powerful Oz for what hereally is, right?
Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
We talk about everything, no holds bar on that
show.
Yep.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
And then go get a copy of her book, Your Best
Brain by Terolyn Cell PhD.
I will make sure all this stuffis linked in the show notes so
everybody, it'll be super easyto find.
Do you have one?
What's one last nugget that youcan share with?
Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
Listen to yourself.
That's it.
Listen to yourself.
Don't take everybody's word forit.
Listen to yourself, be curious.
That's it.
Don't ever stop.
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Oh, thank you so much.
That's so great.
Thank you so much.
All right, until next time,upsiders.
Thanks for joining me on theUpside of Bipolar.
Your journey to recoverymatters, and I'm grateful you're
here.
For more resources, visitwww.theupsideofbipolar.com.
(01:11:01):
If you're ready to dive deeper,grab my book, The Upside of
Bipolar, seven steps to healyour disorder.
If you're ready to heal yoursymptoms, join my monthly
membership, The Upsiders Tribe,to transform chaos into hope.
Until next time, Upsiders.
There has to be way more to mental health than just
talking your way out of aproblem.
And why is it that the the eventhe gold standard, right?
The gold standard is combiningtherapy with psychmeds.
That's the gold standard,folks, right?
That's what you hear.
However, the majority ofclients that a therapist will
see will be on medicationalready, majority.
But was I ever offered therapy,even though I was offered
(00:24):
psychiatric medication?
No, never.
So it's like the reciprocity ofthat gold standard doesn't go
back the other way.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to the Upside of Bipolar, where we uncover
the true sources of bipolarsymptoms and share proven tools
for recovery.
I'm your host, MichelleReitinger, number one
international best-sellingauthor of the Upside of Bipolar
Seven Steps to Heal YourDisorder.
In this podcast, I bring yousolo insights from my journey
and guest interviews withleading researchers and experts.
(00:58):
Join us to transform chaos intohope and reclaim your life.
Let's heal together.
Hey, welcome to the Upside ofBipolar.
I am your host, MichelleReitinger, and I have a
phenomenal guest today.
Today's guest is Dr.
(01:19):
Tarolyn Cell, a PhD brainhealth expert, nutritionist, and
psychmed prescribingprofessional who is grounded in
psychology and functionalwellness.
She has spent over two decadeshelping people untangle the root
causes of mental healthstruggles.
She's known for her no-nonsensescience meets real life
approach to anxiety, depression,and stress, guiding people
(01:40):
beyond symptom management intolasting change.
Dr.
Terolin is the co-host for thenationally acclaimed podcast,
The Gaslit Truth, a phenomenalpodcast, by the way, and has
been featured in national media,including television and radio,
for her refreshing take onmental health, which combines
neuroscience, psychology, andnutrition.
When she's not working withclients or speaking to
(02:02):
audiences, you'll find herenjoying time with her husband
of 30 years, her three adultchildren, and her granddaughter,
often somewhere on the FloridaGulf.
Her mission to empower you toreclaim your brain, your body,
and your life without gettingstuck on medic on the medication
merry-go-round.
Dr.
Terolin, I am so thrilled tohave you here today.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Thank you so much for being my guest.
Yeah, no problem.
I'm happy to be here.
If my mission in life now isjust to give a good message of
hope and change and all thethings.
Um, so I'm happy to be able todo that for your audience today.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah.
So let's start with, I want tostart with your story.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay.
So when we were talking, I'mlike, which story do you want?
Do you want my professionalstory, my personal story?
Uh the combination of the twois probably the most, I don't
know, powerful story, but I usedto be a very traditional
psychotherapist.
Like I my whole training andeducation was rooted in
(03:00):
tradition, like what you seetoday, in diagnosing, in you
know, manualized programs, CBT,DBT.
Uh, and then I switched intoEMDR stuff and all of that.
And um, I had been working inthe prison system in my state,
and that's where I received thistraditional training that I
(03:21):
had, also traditional inpsychiatry.
So we were the right-handpeople of the psychiatrist.
We were the eyes and ears ofpsychiatry, which was great
because I learned all aboutpsychmeds to a degree, right?
So we only learned about howgood they were, right?
Like promoting them, andthere's lots of manipulative
(03:41):
language that we also learnedthat is still people still use
it today.
At the time, I didn't know itwas manipulative language,
manipulative.
I just thought it was thelanguage we used, right?
Um, there one key change for mehappened.
There was a particular inmatewho was always in segregation
for fighting, like violent, allthese things.
(04:02):
So I'm researching and I'mlike, what?
When I say researching, I meanlike perusing the internet at
that point, right?
Like I'm I'm looking forarticles, I'm looking for
something to help withaggression.
And I happened to come across astudy.
And this study was kind of thething that changed things for
me, got my got my juicesflowing, if you will.
Um, it was a study done in ajail on aggressive inmates in
(04:26):
jail, and that would be theclosest to prison, right?
There's not a lot of researchdone in jails and prison because
they are one of the mostvulnerable populations, right?
So anyway, I saw this and itwas on omega-3 fatty acids and
how when they gave some of themost violent or aggressive
inmates in this jail omega-3fatty acids, that their
(04:47):
aggression reduced.
And I was like, I have hit theholy grail.
I have, I am going to bringthis research to the treatment
team, and this is gonna be aslam dunk of slam dunks.
So I brought it and I'm handingit out, and the psychiatrist
says, You're not a dietitian.
(05:09):
So I gathered it all back upand left, and that was pretty
much it.
I was instantly shut down bypsychiatry because I wasn't a
dietitian and I was talkingabout omega-3 fatty acids.
And I'm like, nobody wanted tolisten because the systems that
(05:32):
I was working in at the timewere so siloed that it don't
speak out of turn, don't speakabout something that, quote, you
don't know, blah, blah, blah.
Even though this was a researcharticle, it was good research.
And I was like, it's worth ashot, isn't it?
Like at this point, like theguys that we had were to get
more protein would eat a lot ofpeanut butter.
(05:53):
Like they were ordering peanutbutter off a canteen because
they were such low protein dietsin there.
And I'm I'm thinking, well, ifwe can do something, you you can
prescribe omega-3 fatty acids.
People do it all the time now.
But they were they refused.
So that was kind of thebeginning of like a little the
little morsel that kind of stuckin my brain.
(06:14):
And um eventually, um, and I'llget into my psyched story in a
minute, but after a while, Idecided I I rose to clinical
director and things like that ina different prison system and
decided that I just couldn'tmake the changes there that
needed to be made.
And I know that seems like a Icopped out, I left, I took a
hike, like I went out of therebecause it was systems that I
(06:36):
just couldn't, I could no longerin good conscious support if I
couldn't make a change, right?
That that could be good forthese people.
Anyway, so then I went intofull-time private practice and I
thought, well, this is gonna beeasy, right?
Like this is gonna be theeasiest thing.
Very quickly, I saw many womenparticularly uh come in who were
(07:00):
on multiple psychiatricmedications, multiple, multiple
classifications, and they weregetting worse and worse and
worse and deteriorating, as wecall it.
Um, and again, so I took to theinternet again, and this is
like early stage internet, likethis isn't how it is today.
Like you have access to so manythings.
(07:20):
And um, I happened to comeacross, and they're still here
today, the Alliance forAddictions and Mental Health
Solutions.
And the Alliance was doing alot of profound work with Julia
Ross.
I don't know if you have heardof Julia Ross.
Julia Ross was the author ofthe book called The Mood Cure.
And um, she was with theAlliance at this time, and they
(07:43):
were teaching people about aminoacids.
So, what I was feverishlysearching was things like, I
remember my search was like howto improve dopamine naturally,
how to improve serotoninnaturally, how to because at
that time, you know, we're stillthinking it's a deficiency in
these things and you know,whatever.
Um, so I was like, well, how dowe improve these, you know, the
(08:04):
mental state of peoplenaturally?
And that's I I happened to comeacross amino acid therapy, and
I was like, oh, this is it.
This is it.
And from there, I got deeplyinvolved in nutrition, went back
to nutrition school.
I I'm also like a lifelongstudent.
(08:24):
If someone would just pay mefor that job, I know, I would
just, you know, it would be mucheasier.
But unfortunately, I pay them alot uh to continue to get the
education that I need.
Because when you think aboutit, just you know, so I have a
PhD in psychology with anaddiction studies focused, and I
have a master's degree incounseling psychology.
(08:46):
We didn't talk about even howto make a neurotransmitter.
Like that wasn't part of, eventhough I'm studying addictions,
right?
I'm studying, but what theythey talked about dopamine, they
talk about serotonin, but theydon't say, like, from a
lifestyle perspective, how tohelp somebody improve the health
of their brain andneurotransmitters.
(09:07):
And that is that's still today.
There's no talk about nutritionin schools like that.
Like it's just void, it's justnot there.
So I knew inherently that inorder for me to bridge that gap,
I was gonna have to go seek outthat education elsewhere.
Um, and so that's what I did,and that's what I continue to do
(09:28):
today.
Um, but I think it should beincluded in all curriculum of
any mental health professional,social workers, therapists, all
of that.
Because right in our licensure,it says lifestyle.
Like, so I can ask you if youdrink caffeine or smoke a
cigarette, but I can't talkabout like, are you eating any
protein?
You know, like yeah, buildingblocks to neurotransmitters,
(09:51):
protein, easy.
That's not a hard conversation,but yet it's omitted in
education.
So anyway, so that's kind ofhow I got here.
That's the like abbreviatedversion of how I got here.
Um, my personal story is alittle different and it
continues to unfold because themore I interact with people now,
especially people who are onpsychiatric medications or
(10:12):
trying to get off of them, themore I piece together my own
story with health and my own umexperiences with psychiatric
medications.
And, you know, I'm in my upper50s now, so everybody's trying
to throw psych meds at me.
Everybody, anytime I go to thedoctor, they're like, here's a
psych med.
I'm like, get bent.
Like, no, I'm not gonna take apsych med for this, right?
Speaker (10:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
So I I feel like unless you are like as cynical
as I am sometimes, um, peopledon't confront that.
They just take it, right?
They'll just be like, okay,doctor said take it.
You know, especially menopausewomen are the biggest growing
group of you know, psychiatricmedication consumers.
So I'm right there.
Um, so now cautiously, ofcourse, when a doctor asks me
(10:57):
about things like fatigue, I'mlike, I'm fine.
Don't even bother.
Don't bother.
I'm I'm good, you know.
Um, but my it do, well, firstof all, I'm just rambling on
right now.
Do you have any questions aboutthat so far?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
No, I I do want you to get into your personal story
because I think that thosethings affect each other.
It's really fascinating.
That's actually one of thethings that that piqued my
interest in you when I firstfound you on social media was
all the stuff you're talkingabout with your personal story.
And I'm thinking, oh man, likea psychiatric professional, you
know, a psychologist and by byeducation that went through all
(11:35):
of these things, and I thinkthat those also seem to have had
a profound impact on the waythat you viewed mental illness
and the way that you view youknow your clients.
And so can you talk a littlebit about that as well?
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah.
So my first introduction topsychiatric medications
personally was when I was aboutfive months pregnant.
Um, I went to my OBGYN and uhshe had asked, Do you remember
feeling like you might have hadpostpartum depression with my
first pregnancy with my firstchild?
And I said, All I said was,yeah, I'm pretty sure I think
(12:08):
so, or something benign likethat.
It wasn't anything superprofound.
And by the end of that, so thisI was 32, I think.
This is way before I even gotmy master's degree.
I didn't start my master'suntil that child was one.
Okay, so this was way before Ieven knew anything of
self-advocacy or anything.
(12:29):
Um, anyway, so she gave me anantidepressant.
Am I allowed to say what it washere?
Sure, yeah, absolutely.
It was uh Zolof slashCertraline.
So it was just, it was a verytypical SSRI.
It wasn't a massive, you know.
Anyways, it but it still ismassive because I look at
everything now as a drug beforetreatment.
(12:50):
Okay.
So even when we say it wasjust, you know, a little SSRI,
that little SSRI can cause a lotof problems later on.
Um, anyway, so I was on thisand um I gave birth, which was
like a very dissociatedexperience.
Like I was so not connected toit.
And these are things that Ididn't realize at the time.
(13:12):
These are things that I'm like,I remember feeling these ways,
and I remember my son beingborn, and I just remember giving
him nonchalantly.
They put him on my chest, and Iimmediately gave him to my
husband and said, Go do what yougot to do.
I need to sleep.
Like I was just disconnectedfrom the entire experience.
And that is something that I doremember.
Okay.
He also had a lot of troublefeeding.
(13:34):
Um, he was almost uh, theyalmost it was very close to
putting him in the uh NICUbecause he would not feed.
And now I know why.
Okay, so sluggish feeding,inability to latch, all those
things is a big deal.
And so I also know now he waslikely going through his
withdrawal.
Um, but again, nobody wasputting those things together
(13:57):
for me at that time because iteverything it was just safe,
right?
Like it was just safe.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
It was nobody probably even knew.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Like, I don't think anybody's got curiosity had any
curiosity about that at thetime.
Not really.
It was it was quick after that,within a couple years, that
some lawsuits were starting tocome out about Zolofton
pregnancy.
Um, so that was interesting tome when I started seeing those
happen.
Um, but anyway, so all this isretrospective, right?
So some of the stuff, like Iwas so disconnected from my
(14:28):
life.
So I was on, I was on an SSRIfor the prevention of postpartum
depression for six years.
Speaker (14:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah.
Because then after, when youstart telling your doctor,
prescriber, like I kept saying,like, I don't feel good.
Like I just, I have nopleasure.
I have no, well, that'sdepression, you're depressed.
You you need more.
So, you know, so she would giveme more.
Eventually I started refusingmore because I was talking a lot
(14:59):
about I need off, I want off.
And so the resistance to getoff was the profound part.
No help, no nothing.
It was always, well, maybe youknow, this is your depression.
And I'm like, I think I knew Iknew that it wasn't like that
wasn't me.
That wasn't me.
I keep in mind I had kids athome and I was married and all
(15:22):
these things.
And um I wasn't me.
And again, retrospectively, uh,during that six-year period,
like I almost chucked mymarriage because I couldn't
connect to him, and I was areal, real bitch to be around.
Like, you know, theirritability, the negativity,
all of it was just it waspresent.
(15:44):
And um, I kept thinking it'severybody else, it's everybody
else, it's not me, it's my life,it's all these things.
It was the medication 100%.
Because when it took me aboutpeople ask, like, how long did
it take you to get off of that?
Blah, blah, blah.
What was that like?
I did it all the wrong waysbecause again, I didn't have the
(16:05):
help that I have now.
I was still stuck in a verytraditional system, right?
But I knew I needed off of it.
So what had happened was wemoved.
So we moved two hours orsomething from my prescriber.
So we moved away.
And I thought to myself, well,I'm not gonna drive back there
(16:26):
every, you know, six months toget a new script.
Um, so I either find a newdoctor to keep prescribing me or
I just to do it.
I just get off of it.
And so I just got off of it.
I cold turkeyed off of it.
Luckily, where I was workingwas a subset of the prison
(16:47):
system at this time.
It was a it was a kind of aprison within a prison, and it
focused a lot on wellness.
So there was lots of lifestylestuff and wellness and working
out.
And my office mate, I'll credither for this.
She was a big runner and shegot me into running.
This is all like simultaneousstuff, like, you know, divine
intervention, if you will, atthe exact same time of me coming
(17:09):
off of this.
She's she is jogging andtelling me, just come to the gym
with her because we had anon-site gym.
So I started going to the gymand I started jogging, I started
eating better.
I lost about a hundred pounds.
Like it was it within thecourse of a couple of years.
Speaker (17:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
And that was how I was successfully able to get off
of the psychiatric medicationand reconnect my brain to my
body.
Um, and I think all the workingout that I did really helped me
like consolidate all that backtogether without knowing that
that's what it was.
So yeah, so that was do I saydo that?
(17:48):
No, don't do that.
That was probably a really badidea.
That was a real bad idea.
But again, when you're in thespace of like desperation, and
at the time, again, these books,the Mousey deprescribing
guidelines, all there wasn'tFacebook groups for support.
There was nothing.
It was just your prescriber andyou.
And that was pretty much it.
(18:09):
And so you really had to kindof lean in to yourself during
these, during these times.
But I also think that probablybecause there was a lot of
trauma working in the spacesthat I was working in, um,
trauma that I saw, traumaticthings that I witnessed,
traumatic things that I wasinvolved with.
I think that I probablywouldn't have come out of it the
way that I did if I wouldn'thave been medicated, by the way,
(18:32):
and disconnected from myself.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Um, because I was so numb toanything.
Uh-huh.
Didn't bother me.
None of that stuff bothered meat all during that time.
It bothers me now because it myhumanity and my pleasure was
stolen from me for, you know,between six and eight years when
(18:54):
all was said and done, which isa huge part.
The biggest bothersome piecefor me was, you know, in order
to have a memory, like a goodmemory, like I had a young
family, you have to have reallystrong emotions to retain the
memory systems.
And I was so flat that I barelyremember anything.
And that that's my biggestregret of the entire thing is
(19:18):
the loss of time and memory withmy kids, and I don't know, the
the birth and all of it.
Like there's there's a lot,there's still some regret in
those moments, but um mostlyfelt lied to.
You know, like this issomething that you need.
And then suddenly I it was solike I go back to the story, it
was prescribed as apreventative, preventive,
(19:41):
preventative, I can't speak.
And then suddenly it turnedinto something that I needed for
the rest of my life.
Yes.
I didn't even have depressionat the time of the prescription,
but suddenly it turned into alifelong mental health condition
or disorder that I didn't evenstart with.
Was I depressed at during the100% medication-induced
(20:06):
depression?
But that's not how it waslooked at at all.
Yeah.
So yeah, but like I said, everytime now I go to the doctor,
like I've been presentedpsychiatric medications so many
times, and I think people canresonate with this.
When when I was about to leavethe prison system that I was at,
(20:26):
when I was about to leave, Iwas struggling in this conflict
place, like um what I needed andwhat the changes that I wanted
to do systemically weren'tpossible.
Um, so I had severe anxiety.
I had tons of anxiety, which bythe way, now could have been
protracted withdrawal.
(20:48):
Um, because it was still duringthat time frame.
Again, I didn't know thisstuff.
I I didn't have language tothese experiences.
It was just I suddenly had thisweird anxiety that I had never
felt before in my life.
I've never been an anxiousperson.
Um, but I was having panicattacks constantly in the car,
like all these things.
And so I went to the doctor andI was prescribed and I took
(21:11):
home the prescription foreffects are so an SNRI.
Um, I took it two times, so twonights, and I couldn't get up
out of bed.
I was so dizzy.
Um, I couldn't function.
And of course, what do theytell you?
Well, you gotta get used to it.
Yeah, or that you have to getused to your body needs time to
get used.
And I'm like, build up in yoursystem.
(21:33):
Or yes, I can't get up.
Like, I can't.
I had such bad like vertigo andnausea.
And so after two nights oftaking that, I was like, like
this little voice in my head waslike, You don't need this.
Like, this is not something youwant to get used to.
And by the way, I had just comeoff, not just, but a few years,
(21:55):
come off of an SSRI for allthat time.
So I was really struggling withthis idea that great, now I'm
gonna be stuck on this foranother who knows how long.
I really feel like I dodged abullet on the SNRI because those
are even worse to get off of.
Um, so I remember driving homeand I thought, you know what, I
can medicate myself through thisor I can quit.
(22:17):
And I came home and I said tomy husband, I said, I'm gonna
quit.
I'm gonna quit.
And he goes, Thank God.
And I was like, why didn't yousay that earlier that I had a
choice to quit?
You know, you know what I mean?
Like that it's a choice, youknow.
People, I want you to know itis a choice to do something
different.
You always have that choice.
(22:37):
We put our own barriers infront of ourselves.
And I tell people this too, andthis is how I live my life.
Everything is figure out, andit does get figured out.
That's what happens.
So I was able to quit, go intoprivate practice.
Things get weirder becauseseveral years passed and I have
thyroid problems.
I believe from my SSRIexperience, um, metabolic
(23:01):
things, thyroid thyroid, becauseit was one or two years into
medications that suddenly mythyroid got jacked.
I was pre-diabetic.
They're medicating me for that.
Like, I'm like, I was 33, 34 atthe time.
They're treating me like I was70, you know, with all of these
things.
And um everything cleared upexcept for the thyroid.
(23:23):
That's been something that Ihave had to struggle with for
the entinitis.
I have that too.
Um, but anyway, those things Ican live with.
So I know when my thyroid is inhypo, I have hypothyroid.
I know when it's in hypothyroidbecause I get very fatigued,
like I can feel it.
So I went to an endocrinologistbecause I was like, you know,
probably time to look at this alittle bit differently.
(23:44):
This is probably 10 years agonow.
And I sit down, she's like, Whyare you here?
And I said, Well, because I'mreally fatigued and you know, my
thyroid, blah, blah, blah.
And she's like, Well, we canrun some labs.
So keep in mind thisconversation is before any labs
were run.
Okay, we can run some labs.
And I was like, I've neverreally done that, never really
dug in.
(24:04):
And she goes, In the meanwhile,though, here is I can prescribe
you an antidepressant, astimulant, and a sleep aid.
Gosh.
In 20 minutes.
Yeah, I get such backlash onsocial media for sharing that.
No way, you were given astimulant like that.
I'm like, yeah, yes, way, yesway, 100%.
(24:29):
Because I said I'm fatigued.
All right.
So the automatic assumption isyou're depressed and you need
better sleep.
And you know, to also so youcan function better.
Here's a stimulant so you'renot so fatigued in in the
midday, right?
Yeah.
And I said, no, thank you.
Don't bother.
Don't bother.
I'm like, no, I need no, no,thank you, don't bother.
(24:52):
And she goes, then why did youcome in?
And I said, Because of mythyroid, maybe you're an
endocrinologist, whatever.
And uh, she did order the labs,thankfully, and turned out I
was in another stage ofhypothyroidism.
So, and I had very low vitaminD and B6 and B12.
And I'm like, that would nothave been resolved.
(25:13):
It probably would have beenworse if I would have taken that
stack of psych meds, right?
Yeah.
So I'm like, what the what theheck?
So for about 10 years I wasskating by without being offered
psychiatric medications untilprobably five months ago for
weight loss.
(25:34):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
For weight loss?
Okay, wait a minute.
Like some counterintuitive.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I I put on probably 50pounds from Zoloft by itself.
Yes, yes, yes, which nobodywants to believe that either.
And I'm like, believe it, ithappened.
But yeah, so they're like,well, you know, there's some
research out there that showsthat I think it was uh well
butrin.
Well butrin can help withweight loss.
I'm like, yeah, it can alsomake you crazy.
Yes, and uh can also make yougain weight, which is something
(26:05):
that will probably happen to me.
Yeah, yes, um, but yeah, I waslike, uh no, no, no, no, thank
you.
You know, so you you learn totemper conversations, right?
When you know the antidote, soto speak, is gonna be an offered
psychiatric medication.
And so when people talk like,well, you know, it's a mental
(26:28):
health diagnostic, they're notgoing through any diagnostic
criteria to give you most ofthese medications.
None.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It makes me so crazy.
That that makes me so crazy.
And and one of the things thatI love about like, first of all,
you have a fantastic book.
I want to make sure theaudience knows it's called Your
Best Brain.
Here it is, I'll show it.
It's yeah, it's fabulous.
I have my coffee right here.
She's got it tabbed.
I love it.
I've got yes, I've got allthese notes here.
So um, so I one of the thingsthat you mentioned this word
(27:01):
earlier, and I want to talkabout this because I think this
is one of the biggest issuesthat we have when people are
struggling with any kind ofsymptoms, you know, they they
get they get lumped into thesecategories and and then we are
then we diagnose them with adisease, right?
Speaker 1 (27:19):
So you have you know, you can never, ever, ever,
ever, ever, ever, ever healfrom, by the way.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yes.
Well, and it's and it's agenetic disease.
You know, we we have this, weget this idea that we don't have
any control over these things,that it's beyond our control.
And and so you get diagnosedwith, you know, my diagnosis
initially was uh depression andanxiety because I was so
depressed I couldn't even almostarticulate what was going on
with me.
I had an aunt with me that wasgiving a lot of information to
(27:45):
the doctor.
And when they put me on theantidepressant, my first
antidepressant was Zoloft.
And within a few months, I hadramped up into mania.
And oh, whoops, we misdiagnosedyou.
You have bipolar disorder.
And it's that's the biggestload of BS I've ever heard.
I know, and I was so angry.
I was so angry when I read whenI read Anatomy of an Epidemic
(28:07):
and I learned about like theprevalence of people getting
diagnosed with bipolar disorder,and then people say, Well, you
were misdiagnosed.
And I'm like, oh my gosh.
Like, there is no scientificbasis diagnoses.
They're right.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
You were misdiagnosed.
You shouldn't have had adiagnosis.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Exactly.
Accurate diagnosis.
I always ask the misdiagnose.
If somebody accuses you ofsaying you were misdiagnosed, I
always say, Okay, then whatconstitutes an accurate
diagnosis?
Because I was diagnosed byeight separate psychiatrists
over a 12-year period between mymy own psychiatrists and
hospitalizations and moves.
Every single one of themaffirmed the diagnosis of
(28:48):
bipolar starting with bipolartwo, and then later bipolar one
when I had a psychotic episodein a hospitalization, right?
And so what you're talkingabout with these, and you talked
about the same thing within theprison system.
We don't look at these, wedon't look at any of these
symptoms as individualindicators of an underlying
distress that might be biologic,you know, biological meaning
(29:11):
like your body's not getting thenutrition it needs, the brain's
not getting the nutrition itneeds, the your gut might be
messed up, you know, maybe,maybe you have unprocessed
trauma, maybe you've got, youknow, your your body has been in
fight or flight for so long.
You know, there's all of thesedifferent pieces that could be
addressed if we would stopdumping all of the symptoms into
(29:31):
into these into thesecategories that are then
identified as a disease thatmust be medicated.
unknown (29:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So I I want to ask you you did go through a
traditional psychiatrictraining, well, psychological.
But I mean within it's allwithin the same framework,
right?
Speaker 1 (29:50):
People get mad at me for this too.
You're not a psychiatrist.
Do you guys really think that Ididn't have to study
psychopharmacology?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yes, what?
Well, and also.
All of the education now, allof the education now is framed
within this disease mindset,everything.
So it's not just psychiatrists.
The psychiatrist, obviously,all of it is framed within the
disease mindset and this ideathat psychopharmacology, you
know, the pharma pharmacologicalsolution is the first line of
(30:19):
defense, and that's what needsto happen.
And all of the otherdisciplines that are support
kind of like desire, you know,it's it's kind of like a support
system for the psychiatry.
For psychiatry, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I want to know how you wherewhere the change came for like
(30:40):
did you start, were youquestioning within your
training?
Because it sounds like you gotthrough your training, you got
into your profession, and youwere still I did not question a
single thing.
Okay, so where did where didyou start questioning it?
Like, I want to know where thathappened because it's so rare,
really.
It is so rare to find somebodywho comes up through that system
who is even open.
(31:01):
And I know you talked a littlebit about it, but can you talk a
little kind of talk a littlebit more about when you started
questioning, like, wait aminute, maybe maybe this is
wrong?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
So I questioned it in the prison to an extent, right?
In part because uh again, partof one part of my job before I
hit the supervisor position wasdoing psyche valves.
That's all I did all day longwas psychiatric evaluations.
And I would spend hours uponhours sifting through
information, giving standardizedtesting, all these things to
(31:33):
come up with the properdiagnosis.
The only ones that would get tome for a psyche valve were the
ones that were question markdiagnosis, meaning they've been
diagnosed with just aboutanything and everything in the
DSM, and they don't know whattheir true diagnosis is.
Okay.
So then they would come to me,and I think I don't know if Jen
(31:55):
had that position the same.
We worked together actually.
Um, so I that they would cometo me or other uh practitioners
who had the same position as Idid and do the psyche valves,
right?
And so during that time, it itwas questionable because I kept
thinking like this is all justmy thoughts, really.
After you put together like thethe outcomes of the um the
(32:20):
testing and then their history,then it's just all me.
Then it's just it's still myview because it doesn't really
spit out, right?
Oh, this is the criteria.
It like if you if they gothrough like a computerized
program, which most of ours wereum hand scored, we'd scored
them by hand.
There were a couple thatweren't hand scored at that
(32:41):
time.
I'm sure there's more that arenot hand scored now.
Um, but they'll list outcertain ideas for you, right?
And then then based on theperson you go in, there's still
still such a subjective, youknow, piece to this.
So that was when I was startingto question like, this just
doesn't even feel real.
Like this doesn't even feelreal.
(33:02):
But I wasn't questioning itenough to be like, I gotta get
the heck out of here.
Like I I I wasn't doing thatbecause keep in mind I was
working for the state, like thatis a secure job.
That is a that is a sure thing,retirement, health care band,
the whole nine yards to leavethat.
Yeah, people thought I wascrazy when I walked away from
(33:25):
it.
They're like, You're walkingaway from the sure thing.
And I'm like, Yeah, I have to.
I have to walk away to savemyself.
Now I know that my like unresttoo was me working in a system
that I couldn't support, right?
So that was probably theturning point situation for me
because my body was literally uhphysiologically and just
(33:48):
emotionally rebelling againstgoing to work every day because
it was something that I just Istarted to not believe in,
right?
And let me get this clear it'snot that I don't believe in
mental illness or mental healthcare, it's that I didn't believe
in the systems that we had toalways work within in order to
(34:08):
change that for somebody, whichin those systems was mostly
medicated restraint.
Okay, so that was so muchmedicated restraint in there.
Um, so that was something thatI was like, this was weird.
There, there was another, like,there's a couple things that
really stand out to me.
One time was an elderly, um, hewas an elderly inmate.
(34:30):
I think he was around 70-ish atthe time, and overnight he
became psychotic overnight.
And everyone was like, he'sfaking it, he's faking it, he's
faking it.
Psychiatry swoops in, gives himantipsychotics, like
immediately.
And here's little me.
I go up to the guy, he was oneof my clients at the time, and I
went up to him and he waspsychotic for sure.
(34:51):
I knew this guy, and I turnedaround, I said, Did anyone check
for a UTI?
Sure as shit.
Oh my gosh, he had a UTI.
And I was like, little old mefrom the psychological unit has
to tell physicians, Did youcheck him for a UTI?
Right?
(35:12):
Like, he's elderly, like I knowthis stuff.
Like, you doesn't take a rocketscience to know that.
And so that that was alwaysvery curious to me, because I
was like, it doesn't make senseto just throw somebody doesn't
go psychotic overnight.
Come on, like this doesn't makeany sense.
So it was either he becamepsychotic overnight somehow and
some miracle at 70, or there wasan underlying condition, which
(35:33):
in no way, or he was faking it.
Like that, those were the onlyoptions to this thing.
So my introduction topsychiatry and psychology was
pretty cynical as well.
Like, so I'm I can be kind ofashamed at some of the things I
supported during during thosetimes.
And I think that was where mybody was like, don't do this,
you know, like this is not okay.
(35:54):
This is not okay.
Um, but really I I do when Itold you the story of the one
woman sitting on my couch whowould come in every week and on
more and more meds and worse andworse and worse to the point of
being suicidal.
And I was like, There's there'sgotta be another way.
Or when somebody came in, Iremember another one, and
they're put on suddenly put oncholesterol medications and
(36:16):
suddenly they were superdepressed.
Yeah.
And I was like, hey, I thinkit's the cholesterol med.
Yeah.
Oh, my doctor said no, no, no,no.
And I'm like, I don't know.
So then they went off, andguess what?
Depression remitted, like, youknow, and I'm like, okay, so
like I'm on to something.
And so that's really like Iwish there were like one
(36:37):
epiphany moment where I waslike, enough, you know, but I
think it was a series of thingsthat shifted.
And I also felt like as atherapist, that I just couldn't
do enough.
And I remember stumbling acrosssome things about, you know,
um, it's not a deficiency inRitalin or it's not a Zolof
(36:59):
deficiency or whatever.
And then I kept thinking, like,there has to be way more to
mental health than just talkingyour way out of a problem.
Speaker (37:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
You know?
And why is it that that the theeven the gold standard, right?
The gold standard is combiningtherapy with psych meds.
That's the gold standard,folks, right?
That's what you hear.
However, the majority ofclients that a therapist will
see will be on medicationalready, majority.
But was I ever offered therapy,even though I was offered
(37:30):
psychiatric medication?
No, never.
So it's like the reciprocity ofthat gold standard doesn't go
back the other way.
So now, of course, in mycynicism, I'm like, right,
because you were creatingpsychiatric soldiers in us,
right?
Go get on psych meds, go get onpsychmeds, which basically
erodes confidence in atherapist, right?
(37:51):
Because it's like, oh, you getto a certain place and you have
to refer to psychiatry becauseyou can't cut it after this
place.
And I'm like, but I think youcan.
I I think you can, you know, soI totally understand what
you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Like there wasn't one moment because even with my own
progression through like myawakening, my like my it's you
know, I talk, I talk aboutanatomy of an epidemic being my
red pill moment, but truly Ilike I had had suspicions for
years and things didn't makesense to me, but I didn't have
enough confidence in my ownintuition to like do anything
(38:29):
about that, right?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Nor support, nor support.
Like, imagine somebody like mein the prisons.
I I brought in research aboutomega-3 fatty acids and was
pretty much laughed out of atreatment plan room, right?
Yeah, and so imagine oneperson, little old me, trying to
like change a system or a wayof thinking.
(38:51):
Never, never, never would be.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
You know, in one moment.
And even over time, like I whenI started, when I started my
blog to try and share what I waslearning, I was still super
hesitant.
Like I would, I was never gonnasay like psych meds are causing
problems because I thought,well, maybe some people do need
psychiatric meds, and maybe it'sjust me that was, you know,
that benefited from getting offof them.
And so I was so afraid to tostart being more confident in
(39:36):
what I was learning because Iwas still afraid that maybe
there was this population thatstill needed these things, and
so I didn't want to like And bythe way, I gotta say, well,
there might be, but there's alsoa population that is very
harmed, right?
And the thing is it's liketaking, it's like playing
Russian roulette with your brainwhen you take these psychiatric
(39:57):
medications because it'sabsolutely yes.
Well, and the other thing is isthat there is when we have
these diagnoses, there is itcompletely eliminates any
curiosity into what actuallymight be causing the symptoms.
Right.
So people stop being curiousbecause they think they've been
given an answer.
When when somebody is diagnosedwith depression, when they've
been diagnosed with anxiety,when they've been diagnosed with
(40:18):
bipolar schizophrenia, theythey stop being curious and they
stop looking for answersbecause they think they've been
given an answer.
All they've been told is thatthey have this cluster of
symptoms, but they think thediagnosis means you have a
broken brain.
Yes, you have a disease.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
They think it means if you have if you have a
diagnosable mental healthcondition in the DSM, the
funneled meaning is I have abroken brain.
Yes.
And that's what it is.
Like it, and what once youbelieve that you have a broken
brain because somebody diagnosedyou with a broken brain, that's
(40:53):
now the paradigm that you'regoing to live in and move in for
the rest of your life untilsomething might happen to say,
maybe I don't, you know, maybethis doesn't.
Or or when you start off withdepression, you end up with
anxiety, bipolar disorder, allthese other things, right?
It's like that has to makesomebody curious, right?
(41:15):
Because it's like that wasn'tmy originating thing, right?
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Well, and it's interesting because I I whenever
I would ask these questions, soyou know, starting off with
depression and anxiety, and andI and once I had the paradigm of
bipolar, then my brain wentback and looked for evidence
earlier.
And so I could see evidence.
So I'm like, oh yeah, but ifyou go back into my life, you
can see when I would go throughthese periods of depression and
(41:39):
then I would get really elevatedin my mood.
And so I would our brain goesback and tries to make sense of
our lives based on this this newparadigm that we've been given,
right?
But it is so it is so harmfulbecause it there are two things.
Naturally, as human beings, Ithink that there is we don't
really love to takeresponsibility for ourselves.
(42:00):
Like it's we don't.
I mean, it's just I you know,if if I can if I can get out of
being responsible for somethingand blame it on something else,
I will.
Like that's just a lot ofthings.
I did that for years.
Yes.
And so if I can so I think itappeals a little bit to part of
us, part of our being, becausebecause then we're not there,
I'm not responsible for thechoices that I made when I was
(42:20):
manic or when I was depressed,or I'm not, you know, it's or
even the idea that my brain isbroken.
Yes, like there's I it's not myfault.
Like it's not my fault, and Ithat's just the way I am, right?
Um, but there's also, I think,also part of us, part of our
soul take uh receives itsfeelings of value and self-worth
from personal accountability.
(42:41):
So when you take that personalaccountability away from people
and they are doing destructivethings to people around them and
they're they're saying, well,it's not my fault, part of them
is feeling like, well, yeah, butlook what I'm doing.
You know, there's there's partof us and we start to feel
terrible about ourselves becausewe can't hold it, we can't have
a healthy relationship, orwe're hurting our families, or
(43:02):
you know, and so one of thethings I love that you do in
your book is you go through cat,you know, category by category
and help people start toidentify what could actually be
the sources of your symptoms.
And it's so powerful becausethe way you talk about it too is
not just you're not justtelling them, like, for example,
(43:23):
you're not just telling themyou need to eat healthy, you're
telling them why and what itdoes to your brain.
I love how you go through andyou talk about, and this is
actually something I want totalk about.
You talk about theneurotransmitters and you talk
about imbalances, and we knowthat I I want to talk about this
because I there are we can getour our neurotransmitters can
(43:45):
get out of balance because we'renot giving them the building
blocks they need to function ina healthy way, but that is not
the same thing as the chemicalimbalance theory of depression,
right?
So I want to ask you, can youtalk about that?
Because in your book you talkabout the different
neurotransmitters, the differentkinds of imbalances you can end
up with, and what can lead tothose imbalances.
And you also, the other thing Ilove that's brilliant, I've
(44:08):
never seen this before, is thatyou go through and you identify
symptoms that can be indicatorsof these imbalances.
So that's straight from Julia.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
That's that's straight from Julia Ross, by the
way.
That's how I was trained to doit.
Yes.
And that's what that's what Ido in practice now, too, is when
it when we track symptomology,is use those checklists, right?
Like use them.
So you're welcome to use them,right?
They're not mine.
Like the this is not TerylynCell's, you know, mastermind
(44:37):
here.
That stuff was was in trainingsthat I took, and that's why it
stoked me because it can be verypowerful.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Well, and the other thing, sorry, one other thing
that I want to just since thisis like a good place to say
this, is it is calling outspecific symptoms instead of
lumping them into buckets,right?
So instead of instead of sayinglike I have anxiety, you are
calling out like racing thoughtsor you know, and they're all
and all these different symptomscould actually be related to
different neurotransmitters.
(45:04):
So we lump them all into thisbucket and and throw
psychotropic drugs at them, andit can actually like make
everything go haywire becauseyou're not actually addressing
the issue.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah.
I I mean, from a fundamentallevel, the whole psychiatric
medication thing doesn't evenmake sense.
I know.
You're you're you're going tothrow a pill at every
psychological problem.
The same meds are used fordepression as anxiety.
Like, how how does that evenmake sense as far as like
(45:35):
individual care?
It it it makes no sense to me,you know, except for
benzodiazepines, but I'm talkingabout like your traditional
antidepressants are also used asanti-anxiety meds.
Make that make sense, right?
When when it could be youranxiety is a dopamine-related
issue, too much dopamine, right?
(45:56):
Too much or epinephrine, or uhagba-related issues, too high,
too low.
You know, one of theinteresting things about
neurotransmitters that you know,that checklist, one of the
things we have to think about issometimes lower serotonin looks
like higher serotonin.
Like sometimes, like there'sthis, there's this thing that
(46:16):
happens, and it's like, well,maybe.
So now I do a lot morefunctional lab work when I do
it.
Very minimal.
Like some people go likethousands of dollars into
functional lab work, like likethey're gonna find some holy
grail somewhere.
I don't like I do basic stuff,and that is very powerful
things.
But if you're just a person andyou're like, listen, I want to
(46:38):
figure out what's happening withmy mood, these checklists are a
really good way to do thatbecause they do, they separate
out like neuro neurotransmitterbasics.
I find most people that havedepressive type symptoms like
low mood, lethargy, just blah,are more in the dopamine pathway
than the serotonin pathway.
Give someone a littleL-tyrazine and they're gonna
(47:01):
perk up.
Yeah right.
But instead, we have to givethem an SSRI, change the way
their brain communicates.
Why don't we just feed it?
Why don't we just give it thenutrients that it might need and
want?
Like, I feel like when yourmood is a certain way, whether
it's like anxious or low, likethat's really your body calling
for nutrients.
(47:21):
Like it's calling for help andsupport, right?
And so on the basic level, likeeverything is connected to
everything else.
Stress, right, impacts all yourbody systems from your hormone
to your thyroid toneurotransmitters.
So if we go back to like whatis your stress load?
So we have nutritional stress,so dietary stress, inflammatory
(47:43):
stress, and emotional stress.
That's stress, right?
But in today's world, we'relike, oh, I'm so stressed out.
Like every, everything, thestress is like this giant
bucket.
I'm like, well, what is it?
Like, what is the stress thatyou're talking about?
Well, the person in the carnext to me this morning on the
way to oh, things you can'tcontrol?
You know, like so, but reallywhen we think about like how do
(48:06):
we manage our stress?
Do we you do we use food asfuel?
Um, do we look at if there's aninflammatory or infection type
thing going on?
We need to.
That's huge.
Inflammation is a huge piece ofmental health, um, especially
bipolar and schizophrenia andthings like that.
They look at uhneuroinflammation a lot,
depression's coming forward withthat, and then your emotional
(48:29):
stress that you're under.
So whether it's trauma, right?
Historic trauma, or even justbad relationship or a work
environment, like again, takinga step back and being like, I
have some choices and how I'mgonna manage this.
And I'll share the day that Imade the choice to leave my job
like that, I still had two weeksleft to work.
(48:50):
I had to give a two-weeknotice, whatever.
So I still had two weeks leftto work.
Those two weeks, I didn't givea shit about anything.
I was like, I can come in andout of here and I am cool as a
cucumber, you know, like becauseI knew I made the change that
my body was craving for me tomake, you know?
Yeah.
And I also think that we getnutrition a little wrong now
(49:10):
because diet culture has kind ofwrecked that for us, right?
Nutrition is only looked at asa way to lose weight.
Yes.
Right?
Especially with women, weightloss, weight loss, weight loss.
And um, we have to startlooking at it as a way to fuel
our brain and body instead oflose weight.
Yeah.
Women women in particular arevery upset when I start talking
(49:33):
about eating more or morenourishing foods because they're
like, I gotta lose weight, Igotta lose weight.
How am I gonna lose weight ifyou're making me eat more
protein?
And I'm like, well, then yougotta make a decision, you know?
You you gotta make a decision,you know.
Do you want to feel likegarbage, right?
Or do you want to try somethingnew, you know, that maybe will
(49:53):
give you a little bit moreenergy so you can go for that
walk that you wanted to go for,or lift weights without being so
fatigued, or you know, justattend to your life and family
because you're clear-headed, youknow.
So I don't know.
Don't know if that answers youryour question, but your
neurotransmitters are based inthe fuel that you give your
body.
Yes.
That's the bottom line.
That that is it.
(50:14):
That was not taught to me inschool.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yeah.
Well, and and one of the thingsthat's so interesting, this I
so there's a the book, TheBetter Brain, that is Dr.
Bonnie Kaplan and Dr.
Julia Reckledge.
Which is funny because you hadyou said that on it and it was
sitting right next to me.
It is so good.
This is such a good one.
And it's so crazy.
All the different things thatthey discovered as they're doing
all this research, all thedifferent, all the different
(50:38):
ways that poor nutrition affectus.
You know, that the researchthat they've done, I think, in
like in um people that arestruggling with addiction, you
know, that, you know, somealcohol addiction and drug
addiction and cigarettes andthat, and they try and try and
try to get over theseaddictions, and then they're
given micronutrients, and all ofa sudden they're able to just
stop.
(50:59):
You know, like it's ourpendulum in our society has
swung so far into the medicationand medical mindset that we
have forgotten all of the stuffour ancestors knew intuitively,
and all of the things we'veforgotten that our body needs
fuel.
Yes.
Yeah, I've had a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
Food is optional.
Food is optional now, and thatstarts in high school.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
That well, and it's and the thing that's the thing
that's interesting is that wehave it's like this this great
mystery that all of a suddenthere's this dramatic increase
in the number of peoplestruggling with mental health
issues, but we're not looking atthe way that our our diets have
changed just just in mylifetime, just in our lifetime.
We've had like when I was awhen I was a teenager, we I grew
(51:43):
up in California, and we usedto go as a family would go to
their their farmer's market,their farmer's market.
It is not like a farmer'smarket today.
This is like a true farmer'smarket where you could buy like
a box of apples or a box, like ahuge box of them for like six
bucks, right?
And and we were eating likewhole foods all the time just
naturally.
Like that was just the naturalway that you ate.
(52:04):
And it was, you know, a specialthing to have like cold cereal,
you know, like the cereal atthe in the boxes at the store or
something.
Now we are eating almost in oursociety is eating almost
exclusively from the inner partof the of the um store, the
grocery store, which is allprocessed foods.
It's been completely strippedof all the nutritional value.
(52:24):
And so I that's one of thethings I love about in your book
is that you talk about not justin nutrition, but you talk
about what the differentnutrients are in the different
kinds of food and what they'redoing in your brain and your
body.
And that is so powerful becausewe don't even understand any of
this stuff.
The food pyramid did a hugenumber on our on our society.
It really messed up what we,you know, the way that we eat.
(52:47):
And then we all get fat and andyou know, mentally ill, and
everybody's like, And we wonderwhy that's yeah, we wonder why
we've wrapped in an enigma.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
You know, I mean, just for the little science
lesson for everybody to to makeserotonin, you need foods that
are higher in tryptophan, whichare typically your poultry and
some nuts and uh cheeses andthings like that.
But then you also need vitaminD, vitamin C, vitamin B6,
(53:17):
methylated folate, like you needall of these new, they're
called nutrient cofactors, haveto be in place in your diet in
order for tryptophan to turninto serotonin and then for
serotonin to turn into melatoninto help you sleep.
And so once I can like paintthe picture, like here's the
picture of why nutrients areimportant, right?
(53:39):
It's not just protein, it'sother nutrients as well.
Then people kind of go, really?
I had no idea why food was soimportant just for that brain
health level, period, right?
Yeah, I had no idea.
Or just balancing your bloodsugar so you're not doing ups
and downs and ups and downs allday, which by the way, I think
(54:01):
is why so many high schoolersare getting diagnosed with
bipolar disorder.
Yes, because I think it's moreof a blood sugar dysregulation
than anything else.
Yeah, because they are high andthey are low and they're all
over and they're volatile andthey're aggressive, aggressive,
and things like that withoutgoing down a rabbit hole.
I think that's kind of a basicthing to look at.
I have when you have kids thatuh in school are having
(54:21):
behavioral problems, right?
In school, I have historically,I don't work with kids anymore
in therapy, but I would write inthe with IEP teams protein
breaks every two hours tostabilize blood sugar.
Yeah.
You want to know what happenednext?
Kid wasn't in the principal'soffice anymore.
(54:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shocker when you actually fuelthem and don't start their day
with a sugary cereal.
Yes.
So that by 10 o'clock they'rein a sugar slump, and then
adrenaline kicks in by 11 andthey're kicking desks around.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Well, and I left the I love there's a story in your
book that you talk about amother who had a daughter who
was like 17 or 18.
I think she was about to go tocollege and she was having like
she couldn't focus.
You know, she was having issueswith like her energy and sleep
and all of these things.
And you I'm trying to remember,I think you I think you you
(55:17):
started with I this is anotherthing I loved about this story
is that you talked about how youdidn't make big changes all at
one time.
You just did a little bit, youdid a little bit of change with
with um giving her amino aminos,right?
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Probably amino acids.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
Amino acids, and then and then you no blue light
after nine o'clock, you know.
And so then after a little bitof time and there's you know
started to see some improvement,then you made a little bit
more, you know, a couple moreadjustments.
And it completely changed her.
You know, you had they talkedabout you talking there about
how like people in the familycouldn't handle being around her
because she was so like out ofcontrol and volatile.
(55:52):
Yeah, and and then so she wasable to like be around the
family and be calm, and itcompletely changed the way that
she behaved, and it completelyand then she also was able, this
is another thing that I thoughtwas fascinating.
She had a really hard timestudying.
You you know, you talk aboutthere about how she couldn't
focus and it was really hard forher to get get herself going
with her studying, but once allthese things balanced out, she
(56:13):
was able to sit down right awayand get right to work on her
studies.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
I think that's the problem, is that we think that
we have to do everything inorder to make a difference.
And I I do think like socialmedia has done a terrible job
with lifestyle changes to makepeople think they have to be
perfect and do it all.
And I'm a huge believer in findthe low-hanging fruit that's
gonna make the biggestdifference for somebody and go
(56:39):
for that.
And go for that.
Like, like if uh, you know, ifyou're on social media from
midnight to 2 a.m., go for that.
Like stop that first.
Like, stop that for that islow-hanging fruit, people.
Like, stop those things first.
Or if you you know start yourday with caffeine and you don't
eat anything till five or sixwhen you get home, low-hanging
(57:01):
fruit, protein every threehours, just something small.
You know, this this doesn'thave to be rocket science.
And I I think that's why peoplestill struggle because they're
like, oh, I know I need to makeall these changes.
Because I do think peopleunderstand what changes they
need to make.
You you cannot tell me thatsomebody is up till 2 a.m.
on TikTok.
(57:21):
If I talk to them, they'regonna be like, Yeah, I know, I
know, I know.
They they know, like youinherently know, or somebody who
drinks too much alcohol, theyknow.
They know, you know, you feelit, you feel it in your body,
not a day goes by that you don'tthink about it, you know.
But I think because it feels sooverwhelming to make all of the
changes, um, that we make noneof the changes.
(57:45):
And there's nobody out theresaying, you know what, it's okay
to make one or two changes.
Nobody's saying that, nobody'sgiving you permission to do one
or two different things.
It's like, oh, I have to go tothe gym six days a week, you
know, that's the only way.
And I'm like, or maybe let'sstart with walking to your
mailbox.
Yes, yes, let's start withthat, you know.
(58:07):
But we have these grandioseideas of what health and
wellness means, you know.
And so then it that's sopreventative in the way people
actually need to live.
Like that that will get in theway of you making any change
whatsoever if you view it to beso big and overwhelming.
So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
Well, and I think I think that one of the other
things that I that I thinkhappens is we have been so
steeped in this like magic pillsyndrome in our society that we
just want a pill.
We just want somebody to giveus a pill so we can just go
about our life and not not haveto make any of these changes or
face like processing trauma oryou know, being personally
(58:45):
accountable and responsible inour lives.
And I and this is not a dig atpeople.
I I I've been there, like I'vebeen there myself.
I've been there too.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
I've been there too.
I I think the hardest pill toswallow is the pill of
accountability, right?
Like you know that you have tomake some changes, so just kind
of do the inventory and be like,I'm gonna pick one thing off
this list that I know that Iabsolutely need to do, which is
why even in the um the chapterabout sleep, like there's a
whole bunch of ideas.
(59:12):
Pick one or two, yeah, youknow, pick one or two that you
know would make a big differenceor even a small difference and
see how you feel.
Speaker 2 (59:20):
Like, well, and the other thing, the other thing you
talking there about is um likeso GABA, for example, I that's
one of the things that was thathelped to kind of fix my
circadian rhythm.
You know, it's I think that wewhen our especially if
somebody's if somebody's been onpsychotropic medications,
everything gets so screwed upthat when you Well, you
(59:42):
definitely have imbalances now,like you are definitely
imbalanced.
So then so now now not onlywere the issues that that caused
you to get diagnosed with thesethings in the first place still
still raging, those are stillthere.
But now you've got all theseother issues on top of that
because now everything has beentotally screwed up with the
psychotropic drugs.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I so I I think thatlittle things that you talk
(01:00:04):
about, about you know, changing,you know, fixing your gut
health and changing your diet,and you know, just making you
know little changes here andthere and the amino acids, I
think, and and micronutrients,you know, taking a really solid
micronutrient supplement thatstarts to give your brain what
it needs so that your brain canstart to heal, that that was a
(01:00:25):
huge game changer for me.
Once I got on micronutrientsand got off of the psychotropic
medications, and I'm I'm gonnaput this caveat in there.
I Dr.
Sal has already mentioned this,but I'm gonna say it again.
If you want to come offpsychotropic medications, you
need an expert to guide youthrough that process.
So you can do anything.
100.
I am not, do not any nobodylisten to this and say, okay,
I'm just gonna stop taking mydrugs because that is.
Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Don't do that.
Like, don't do as I say, not asI do.
Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Yes, yes.
But getting all of that out ofthe way, like I couldn't, I
tried therapy for years while Iwas on drugs and it I hated it.
Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
Can't talk your way out of a physiological problem.
No, like that's that's my wholething.
I also wanted to bring in thisidea that I put in the book
right away is that we have tolook at things from a different
lens.
So good, better, best choices,right?
And some days are gonna be goodenough.
Okay.
(01:01:23):
So this gives us leeway.
So hopefully we'll startchoosing the best options more
frequently.
But if we can choose best oncea week and the rest are good and
better, and then we have a dayof good enough, you know.
The problem is that a lot ofpeople go down into the well,
that was just good enough,right?
Yeah, every day is just a goodenough day.
And I'm like, listen, you canmake it better by choosing, you
(01:01:46):
know, one.
I'll I'll give an example.
I was in uh I was doing abiology because I'm a forever
student.
And so I went back to school tolearn biology.
Anywho, that was a whole thing.
And uh it was like nutritionalbiology, and this was just like
uh a year and a half ago.
And we had to put in, she wehad a tracker and we had to put
in our food for the day withoutjudging it.
(01:02:06):
And so I put in, it was a itwas a crappy day.
I ate pizza, I had some otherthings that just weren't good.
And then we had to put in onefruit or one vegetable to see
how the nutritional profile ofthe day changed.
And so I put in an apple, youknow, I'm like, okay, I'll just
put it in apples, see how itchanges.
The entire nutritional value ofthe day changed.
And so I know when typically mythinking anyway is, oh, I've
(01:02:31):
had a crap day of food.
What is it gonna matter if Ieat an apple now?
Yeah, what is that gonnamatter?
It's not gonna outdo the crappyfood that I already ate today.
And then I did this littleexercise and I was like, it
actually matters a lot.
It matters quite a lot.
Yeah.
Um, will it outdo what you'vealready?
No, it won't outdo, but it'lladd some nutrition into your day
(01:02:54):
that you greatly need.
So when you think about thegood, better, best, good enough,
if you have a day of kind of ajunk food day or whatever, if
you want to add in one fruit orone vegetable, that is gonna
change your whole nutritionalprofile for the day.
And that will put you into thegood category.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
At least a little bit insteadof giving yourself permission
(01:03:17):
all the time.
Oh, it's just a good enoughday.
Yeah.
You know, we can we can dosomething to move the needle up
and down in the good, better,best category.
And I feel like that givespeople a little bit of grace and
a little bit of wiggle room tonot be perfect, right?
Because perfection withnutrition is uh setting setting
up for failure.
(01:03:37):
Yeah.
That's in my opinion, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Well, and I think that I one of the things that I
think it uh your book reallyhelps me to, you know, helps to
highlight.
And I it's the same thing for,you know, in my book and the the
coaching program that I do, itreally, it really is.
If you're serious abouthealing, if you've been
struggling with mental healthissues, you're on psychotropic
medications, especially, if youwant to improve, you really need
(01:04:01):
somebody to work with you.
You need somebody that's gonnahelp you through this process
because it's hard enough to doit with somebody's help.
But if you're doing it, ifyou're trying to do it entirely
by yourself, like it's gonna beso easy to give up and just
think, I'm just not feeling anybetter.
I just need to go back to thepsych doctor and get some more
meds, right?
Yeah.
And so because it's you'repeeling back layers of this
onion and and it takes time andyou and it's helpful to have an
(01:04:24):
outside set of eyes, somebodythat's gonna look, you know, I
look at things and help you tosee things more clearly.
Because a lot of times we livewith these symptoms for so long,
they just feel normal.
And so you don't even know.
Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Yeah, you don't know.
You don't just like living withinflammation, you don't realize
how inflamed you are untilyou're not inflamed anymore.
Yes, and then you becomeinflamed again.
You're like, whoa, yeah, thisis terrible.
That's my body with gluten,right?
Like gluten impacts mehorribly, and I didn't know it
until I took it away, and then Iput it back in, and I was like,
(01:04:55):
Oh my god, this is profound.
Yeah, this is profound, but youdon't know when you're living
in the confines of your ownbody, right?
Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
So So when somebody when somebody comes to work with
you, how do you start thatprocess?
Like, what does that look like?
And what is what is workingwith you look like?
Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
Uh a lot of curiosity.
Um, because I we found that thebiggest key is really
understanding somebody'shistory.
Like, how did you get here?
Because it's very interestingbecause often the reason why
someone is prescribed something25 years ago has nothing to do
(01:05:33):
with what they look like today.
Like if you were prescribedsomething when you were 15
because you know you'restruggling through school or
something like that, you are nolonger 15 struggling through
school.
You haven't been 15 strugglingthrough through school in 25
years, right?
So getting a real strong,detailed history, I think, has
(01:05:53):
been one of the most powerfulthings and learning the right
questions to ask.
Because if you don't ask,people don't ask questions at
all.
Like they're just like, Oh, howare you feeling?
I'm fatigued.
Here's some meds.
Thanks.
Bye.
You know, they they don't ask,like, why do you think you might
be feeling fatigued?
Have you ever felt fatiguedbefore?
Do you have a history ofinfection of any sort?
(01:06:14):
Were you up in the Northwoodsin Wisconsin recently?
You might have Lyme's disease,you know, like all these
questions, like you have to getsuper invested in the person's
story in order to peel it backand understand it.
So that's really what it is.
And so for me, there's twodifferent people that I really
love working with.
(01:06:34):
The one is just wants toimprove the health of their
brain, right?
The other one wants to get offof the psychiatric medication.
And so getting off psychiatricmedication isn't just, you know,
here's what you have to do toreduce your medication, but
yeah, it is unwinding thepsychology of everything.
Yeah, it is going through thegrief.
You've lost a lot of your life.
What are you gonna be now?
(01:06:55):
It is focusing on the pillarsof mental health in the book,
eat, sleep, move, meditate.
It's yeah, all of that, okay.
And reacquainting people withdecision making on their own
body is a big part of it becausethis whole time you have been
offloading your decisions ontoother people, you know?
The doctor says, do this,therefore I do that.
(01:07:16):
Right.
So it's reclaiming your ownpersonal agency and ability to
advocate and just sense of self.
So that is all kind of wrappedup into there.
I do, like I said, I dofunctional lab work as well.
Um, we look at functionalneurotransmitter and cortisol
levels, and you know, go get aphysical examination.
(01:07:36):
Yes.
And in that physicalexamination, I'm also gonna add
in a whole bunch of labs that Iwant your doctor to include to
make sure they're there so thatwe know everything.
Yeah.
Because how often, you know,when you go to mental health,
they're not even looking at yourphysical well-being.
They're they're not evenlooking at any of that.
It's all in your head.
(01:07:56):
Well, I'm here to tell youfolks, your head is connected to
the rest of your body by yourneck.
Like, yes, it's all connected.
It's done.
And psychiatric medicationdoesn't know where your head is
compared to your your gut oryour heart.
Like it doesn't know, it justgoes wherever there's a receptor
for it, right?
So it's not a heat-seekingmissile, which is why people
(01:08:19):
are, oh, it's just a brainthing.
And I'm like, it is not though.
I know it is not, I know, youknow.
So wherever there's a receptor,that medication will go and
impact.
So, and those receptors are allover your body.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
So I can talk to you for hours.
I I am so fascinated by yourexperience and and your
education, and we're like sosimpatico because I'm like,
You're spit, you're singing mysong, sister.
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
I know.
Hopefully it resonates withyour listeners too.
But I'm confident well.
Yeah, I'm not gonna, you know,hijack this, but um, I am
willing to give away a couplecopies of my book to anybody,
your listeners.
That's it.
If you wanna yeah, if you wannahave them do something, I don't
know, you can decide what youwant them to do to get it.
So I'd be happy to happy tosend them out for you.
Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
And I I would encourage people to buy it.
Like it, it is so worth it.
I've actually bought two, Ibought I bought a physical copy
and then I bought uh I hadbought an electronic copy and
then I started reading.
I'm like, no, I need a physicalcopy.
I need to highlight, I gotta goresearch this more.
You know, it was just, it's sowell written.
It's so great.
Thank you so much.
(01:09:24):
I want everybody, you everybodyneeds to follow you.
So where can they find you?
Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Uh, so all of my social medias are the same.
My uh TikTok, Instagram,Facebook are the the three big
ones.
Um and it's just all Dr D Runderscore Terra Lynn,
T-E-R-A-L-Y-N.
I'm the only Dr.
Terra Lynn out there, so you'llfind me.
unknown (01:09:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
And it's and you have like such great content on you
know on your social media andthat.
And go listen to her podcast.
It is, it is so good.
And it's you have to, it's likethis is this is your this is
your red pill.
Like if you haven't had yourred pill yet, this, this, this
will start that, you start youon that journey because the the
guests that you have on thereare so phenomenal, and it really
(01:10:05):
does help kind of pull back thecurtain and show us the great
and powerful Oz for what hereally is, right?
Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
We talk about everything, no holds bar on that
show.
Yep.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
And then go get a copy of her book, Your Best
Brain by Terolyn Cell PhD.
I will make sure all this stuffis linked in the show notes so
everybody, it'll be super easyto find.
Do you have one?
What's one last nugget that youcan share with?
Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
Listen to yourself.
That's it.
Listen to yourself.
Don't take everybody's word forit.
Listen to yourself, be curious.
That's it.
Don't ever stop.
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Oh, thank you so much.
That's so great.
Thank you so much.
All right, until next time,upsiders.
Thanks for joining me on theUpside of Bipolar.
Your journey to recoverymatters, and I'm grateful you're
here.
For more resources, visitwww.theupsideofbipolar.com.
(01:11:01):
If you're ready to dive deeper,grab my book, The Upside of
Bipolar, seven steps to healyour disorder.
If you're ready to heal yoursymptoms, join my monthly
membership, The Upsiders Tribe,to transform chaos into hope.
Until next time, Upsiders.
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