Episode 2: "Turning Points: Moments of Upstanding" featuring Werner Coppel and Debra Messing

Episode Transcript
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Kevin Aldridge (00:02):
What do we mean by the upstander ripple effect?

Werner Coppel (00:06):
Stand up against hate and prejudice, even if it
does not affect you.

Jackie Congedo (00:13):
From moral dilemmas in today's headlines,
upstanders who rose for justice,and stories of survival,

be prepared to walk away from this conversation
inspired and motivated.

I'm Jackie Congedo.

I'm Kevin Aldridge. Thanks for joining us.

We are here Episode Two, it is June at the
time of this recording. And forus here at the Upstander Ripple
Effect podcast, June is a reallyspecial month because this is
the Cohen Family upstander monthwhere we shine a spotlight on
the upstanders in our world, inour community, these everyday
heroes who are using theirstrengths to really step in and

(00:54):
make make the change. And so wehave some incredible upstander
stories to share with you thismonth coming out of our
upstander awards and coming outof our pilot launch and a lot of
people sort of listening and,and offering their own stories
as well.

Yeah, I mean, I'm excited to see how people
continue to respond to what weput out here. And, again, we
look forward to your feedback.
So tell us what you think aboutthe Ripple Effect the pilot
episode and, and it's justexciting. Yeah.

It is it is exciting. I feel like now that
we're in, we're fully in episodetwo, we were saying we're like,
We're veterans. Now, we don'treally need scripts, we're just
going to have a conversationhere. So we'll be interested to
hear your feedback on firstepisode, and, of course on what
we talked about today, which isprimarily going to be stories of
upstanders. In in keeping withour theme of our upstander

(01:48):
month. Before we get into thatwe wanted to talk just a little
bit about some things that arehappening this month going on in
our world and in our community.
And some reflections on that. Soyou know, to start today.

Yes.

Is is the day of this recording might not be the
day that clearly that you'relistening. But the day we're
recording, this is Juneteenth.

Yes.

And it's a it's a special day to reflect and to
think about the progress we'vemade and the the progress that
we still have to make.

Yeah, absolutely. I and I think we
ought to think about all of our,all of our national holidays.
And in that respect that I don'tthink that we often do. A lot of
times we kind of look at theseas days off and days to relax
and recuperate from our jobs.
But I think it's important forus to reflect on on Juneteenth
and other national holidays,just about how far we have come

(02:44):
as a country, and how far yet westill need to go and what we
need to do to make sure that wecontinue to protect the freedoms
and liberties that that that ourforefathers and mothers, you
know, fought very hard for usto, to obtain.

Yeah, sometimes I think we we get lulled into
this idea of you know, well, theworks behind us are, here we are
and like you said, it's a dayoff. But I think days like today
really remind us that progressis possible. But really, it's
because of intentionality. Andthe work that we put in, that

(03:24):
these things happen. It's not.
It's not predestined, that we'regoing to continue to make
progress on these things, wehave to really dig in and do the
work. And so celebrating all ofthe upstanders, who are still
doing the work today who arewriting the next chapter of
civil rights, across, you know,all identities, and really the

(03:45):
future of our multiracial, multiethnic democracy, which is,
which is in a moment having amoment, isn't it?

Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, it even harkens
back to Ben Franklin's quoteabout us having a democratic
republic if we can keep it,right. Yes, that very quote, in
its essence, talks about, thatit's not something that's
established and will existforever, that the work has to be
put in regularly for us tomaintain what we built because

(04:18):
there are always going to beforces who are going to test the
boundaries of what we're tryingto establish, test the
boundaries of our freedoms andliberty and, and if we want to
protect those things for everyAmerican, you know, that's a
process that we have to be verydiligent about every day. And
you know, I often think abouthistorical figures and this
getting back to our upstanderfocus, is that often wonder if

(04:44):
people in historical momentsactually thought that they were
going to be historical people,or if there was just people
living in times trying to dothings and make a difference.
And so who knows any of theseupstanders that we talked about
on this podcast or even some whoare flying under The radar, you
know, 50, 100 years from nowcould be viewed as significant

(05:05):
historical figures who are justsimply, everyday people who are
just moving through the daytrying to make a difference. So

History will tell that

Yeah, absolutely.

It's like, you know, in the opening film in the
museum, the challenge fromsurvivors is, you're going to be
tempted as you read about thishistory. And you learn about the
history to think about what Iwould have done back then. And
actually, the answer to thatquestion is, but what are you
doing today? Yes, we're writingthe history today.

Yeah.

And our children and grandchildren, and great
grandchildren, and so on, willbe reading and learning about
what we the choices we madetoday. And sometimes I think,
like, it's just because of theway we're wired, we don't always
start there.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I often think about, and

Yeah, and that's the challenge. I mean, it is
we'll probably get into this,and in some way, shape or form
it's not an easy task, I thinkit is really hard in the moment
as we get into some of our otherdiscussions of current events.
But, you know, just in lookingback on Black history, and I
to try and have that perspectiveto be able to say, wait a
always think about people whoare in these old black and white
photographs, who are, who areeither standing in places where

(06:10):
they're protesting against, youknow, the integration of
schools, or people sitting at alunch counter. And I wonder if
those folks ever thought aboutbeing on the wrong side of
history, in terms of where theyare? Because when we look at it
in the modern context, thosephotos don't age well, for those
folks. In fact, there are somepeople who are in prominent

(06:32):
positions today. I think theDallas Cowboys owner had to
answer some questions about, youknow, him being in some of those
photos from back in the day and,and why he was there, and what
he was thinking in thosemoments, so. So I think it's
minute, this is where I am rightnow. But, you know, what is the
very important for us tounderstand to your point, what
are we doing today? Where are weat? Because at some point, we

(06:54):
might find ourselves in some oldpicture 50 to 100 years from now
being judged based on where wewere, what we were doing and
legacy of this? Or what does itlook like in 50 years or 100
what we were saying.

(07:19):
years? Or? And, you know, theother piece I know we wanted to
talk about today is we you know,we're in the middle of Pride
Month, yes. Which is an awesometime in Cincinnati. It is it is
such a amazingly beautifullyvibrant pride scene. And, and so

(07:41):
as people are celebrating, youknow, what's bubbling in some
ways, underneath and to the topare some real tough
conversations about ally ship.
The fact that members of theJewish community have been sort
of made to feel, if it's fair tocharacterize it that way is if
you know, they're they're notreally wanted in their full

(08:02):
identity. You know, I think thisstarted with, Well, it certainly
didn't start I think this ishappening in different ways at
different places. But there wassort of a watershed incident in
Cincinnati where there were anumber of members of the of the
LGBTQ community who were in inCovington for Northern Kentucky
pride. And and they saw somefolks who were there who were

(08:28):
using rhetoric, or they hadsignage that indicated that
Netanyahu right, is the primeminister of Israel is his
exacting the "final solution"against Palestinians.
And, you know, in the context ofour work at the Holocaust, &
Humanity Center, we know thatlanguage to mean something very

(08:48):
specific, and that that's a veryspecific reference, not just to
genocide, but to the genocide ofJews in Germany, perpetrated by
the Nazis and throughout Europe.
And, and so that the use of thatterm is something that strikes a
very deep raw chord, and has avery particular identity, you

(09:09):
know, definition for for Jews, Ithink, and, and, and actually,
for all of us, I think all of ushere, final solution, and that's
Hitler's Germany. Right. And,and so, you know, the
weaponization, in my opinion ofthe trauma, and sort of the
inversion of that I know hasbeen terribly painful for the

(09:31):
Jewish community.
And, you know, when these thesemembers of the Jewish community
who are also part of the LGBTQeye community raised a concern
about this, from what I know,organizers of Cincinnati, or I'm
sorry, Northern Kentucky pride,ask those folks who had those
signs or were using thatlanguage to leave. But now,

(09:55):
what's happened is those twomembers of the Jewish community
who raise their voices on thishas been sort of ostracized in
the pride community, or amongthe pride community don't want
to speak in broad strokes here,there's there's been enough,
according to them, that'shappened. It's made them feel
pretty unwelcome. And, and sowe're now approaching are, you

(10:17):
know, again, as of the taping ofthis episode, our pride, big
Pride weekend in Cincinnati, andthere's a lot of discussion and
hurt in the I know, in theJewish community, and I'm sure
in the LGBTQ community as well.
And certainly, we should talkabout the fact that these are
not mutually exclusivecommunities, right, there are
people who hold these identitiestogether, and certainly so

(10:37):
painful for them. Who are arereally struggling with how to
participate and what to say andwhat to do. Thinking about, you
know, the Jewish Federation, andthey're encouraging people to
participate, I think in whateverway they feel comfortable, but
actually sharing, right? Youknow, if you're wearing

(10:57):
something that outs you as aJew, some insignia of your
identity, you should know thatyou're more likely to be the
target of harassment. So this islike, very challenging times.
And it's so sad to me that thisis during a moment that should
be about celebration ofdiversity, pluralism, and LGBTQ

(11:21):
pride, that this is where weare. And this is the
conversation.

Yeah. Well, I think I think if you look at
sort of where we've been, youknow, not just in the past few
months, but you know, maybe overthe last five to 10 years, we
haven't really been able to kindof celebrate these sorts of
occasions without someunderlying political issue or

(11:51):
social issue, social justiceissue. That's, that's sort of
permeating all of thesecelebrations. I mean, I think
you touched on it. Theinteresting thing to me, and
this is is, and I always try tothink about this, these things
from the, you know, the humanelement, you know, just sort of,
you know, removing the thepolitics, per se, per se from

(12:11):
from the discussion. But if youare a member of the LGBTQ
community who happens to beJewish, as well. And you talked
about this intersectionality ofidentities, where all of us are
more than just one thing. Yeah,you know, you're Jewish, you're
a woman, you're a mother, you'reredhead, right? Yeah, you've got

(12:35):
a lot of art. Yeah, a lot ofdifferent defining
characteristics that make up whoyou are, right? And in this
time, if you're a Jewish personwho's already feeling alone, or
if you're a member of the LGBTQcommunity, who, for a variety of
different reasons, may not evenbe able to find solace within

(12:58):
the Jewish community. Now youwere in a space where maybe the
one area where you thought youhad ally ship and friendship now
your Jewishness is complicatingeven the factors of where you
thought you might be able tofind a safe space there. So how
is that individual dealing withthe challenges that are coming

(13:19):
with what we're seeing here? Andhow alone must that that
individual feel or unsafe thatindividual feels and where,
where you felt like maybe theone safe space that I might have
might be within the LGBTcommunity. And now I'm not even
saved there. Because if I'midentifying myself as a Jewish

(13:41):
person, because of the politicsof what's going on, I could even
be under threat among, you know,people who I thought I would be
the safest with, and it's in itjust, you know, my heart
absolutely just goes out forfolks who find themselves kind
of trapped in that situationright now, because it's just not
an easy space to occupy.

Yeah. And and when I think about, you know,
looking for the upstanders thepeople who are sitting at the
intersections of this reallypainful situation are leading,
let me just say are in aposition to... many of them are
leading the way they are, youknow, by insisting that all

(14:20):
turns on people having toconfront the humanity of both of
these identities, living in onehuman being, that that's what
changes things for people isjust being again confronted with
this idea that guess what, theseidentities are reconcilable not
just reconcilable, but theyactually beautifully exist

(14:40):
together inside me.

Yeah.

And so the more we can be in proximity with each
other in that way, and we canunderstand those things, I
think, the more progress thatwe'll make, and again, I just
think the secret to so many ofthese challenges that we're
facing today is centering thehumanity and the other person
just trying it And sometimesthat's really hard, right?
Because it feels good to begrounded in your truth in a way

(15:06):
that's very black and white. Andin a way that sort of positions
you as the, you know, well, Ihave the moral high ground here.
And the reality is that most ofthe time, particularly when
you're talking about a space ofally ship, and you know, shared
values, somebody else also hashumanity in them. Right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Just confront that,

You know, this, this thought just came to me, so
it could be completely stupidand I'm sure I'm sure people
will let me know about it if itis. But But I think the one
thing that kind of, is reallysurprising to me. And as we talk
about ally ship, we're talkingabout communities who are

(15:48):
minority communities, many thathave been put upon discriminated
against who know the feeling ofinhumanity. And you would think
that, we would have a bettersense of how to come together
and dialogue around differences,right, because we know what it

(16:10):
feels like, to not be listenedto, to not to not be heard. And
so you would think that evenwithin our disparate communities
and experiences, that based onthat, we would be able to come
together and better hash outissues of difference. But what
seems to me to be occurring isis that the pain and trauma that

(16:36):
we have all experienced in ourcreates a block where even
though we know better, we stillhave that inability to be able
to communicate effectivelyacross that, that we can't get
past the we can't get past thepain and the trauma to see that
we know how to talk about thesethings. We know how to deal with

(16:58):
them, because we talk all thetime about how we wish that that
other factors would be able todo that. But across those these
marginalized communities, we'reunable to take those things and
effectively, but have thoseconversations

And make no mistake, that's what
marginalization does.

Yeah,

right.

Yeah.

When you're told you, you have this tiny, little
sliver of the pie, and that'sit, then it's, it's like, there
is no abundance mentality,there's no, can it possibly be
true that you're right, you havean identity that comes with
oppression, and I also have anidentity that comes with

(17:36):
oppression, and that in thecases of people, you know, in
the, in the context of thisconversation who hold both
identities, right, who are gayand Jewish, or trans and Jewish,
or, you know, the again, that'swhy I think that it's a heavy
burden. And it's not all onthese people who have both
identities. But I think that theopportunity for leadership,

(18:00):
particularly in thoseintersectional spaces right now
is so huge.

Yeah.

And so I'm just thinking about all my friends in
the gay community, all myfriends in the Jewish community,
all my friends who live in bothcommunities, and trying to send
them lots of strength, and justjust that I see them in all
their humanity in this momentand hope that we can move

(18:26):
through this in a way that getsus closer to a better spot.

Yeah. And that's the point, right? Like, that's
the point of celebrating PrideMonth and Juneteenth and all of
the things that we talked aboutis trying to recognize and see
people in the fullness of of whothey are.

Yeah, yep. The other piece that we're
celebrating this month is ourupstanders in our upstander
awards, beginning of the month,we had an awesome

Fantastic event.
I mean, it was it was it wasbeautifully put together well
done.

I wish I could take credit but um, I'm giving a
shout out to Kara Driscoll whois our amazing Director of
Marketing & Events and the teamreally the our whole team that
pulled that off. It was a heavylift, but I'm glad that it came
across.

Yeah, I mean, even the creativity and
overcoming the acousticalchallenge

Oh yeah. The headphones

in the rotunda at Yeah, at Union terminal. I
thought it was just it's justvery creative. Very well put
together

No, thank you on behalf of our team, I mean, we
we it's such a special moment Iyou know, it's just sharing with
someone I don't think I willever tire of watching ordinary
people be recognized in anextraordinary way. And in a way
that's like a surprise in thatmoment. They don't know what's
coming. It's it's so it's likeinfectious just seeing how they

(19:40):
receive that and what it meansto them. You know, it's so
deeply meaningful. There were somany tears on stage.

Yeah. Well, I think everybody a lot of people
go out and do the work andthey're not looking for any type
of recognition or reward, but atthe same time, it is still
gratifying to know that otherpeople Paul, see what you're
doing and recognizing the valueand the quality of what you're
bringing to the community. Andthat's got to feel good. And

(20:08):
like you, you know, seeing thesmiles and the tears and the joy
on on people's faces and, andtalking to some of the people in
the aftermath of the awardceremony, just kudos to them,
great job for them. AndCincinnati is very lucky to have
so many dedicated selflessindividuals who are trying to

(20:28):
make make life better for a lot.

Yeah, and doing it without any expectation that
he was going to say anythingabout it. So you know, there
were two, two stories from that,that we wanted to highlight
here. And there's, there's somany I mean, we could talk the
whole next hour and a half, orwhatever we're going to do here
about these alone, but we'regoing to feature some
conversations with some of ourupstander award winners in

(20:51):
future episodes. And so therewill be more to come on this.
But the ones I thought that wereparticularly sort of really
impactful and relevant in thistime, are in this moment. So
Lamont Ragan, who is volunteerswith La Soupe, he was actually
nominated by I think SuzyDeYoung at La Soupe. And he has

(21:14):
built from his own reallyexperience of growing up in a
place where he saw proximatelythat like, having access to
after school activities, andsports and rec was hard. Yeah,
for a segment of kids in ourcommunity, and including him.
And so he he decided I'm goingto do something about that.
And he built this nonprofitwhere he has after school sports

(21:37):
and rec activities for kids. Andhe knew that for himself. It was
it was actually the opportunityto dig deeper and learning that
helped him advance. And so as acondition of participating in
these free after schoolactivities, you have to do some
tutoring. And so he's built thiswhole incentive model. And he's

(22:01):
he's got such warmth. And youknow, just the experience of
having been there himself. Whatan incredible guy. And so we
recognized him this this thismonth with the in the awards,
and it was really special.
And I was thinking about himbecause of what's going on right

(22:22):
now in Madisonville with thishorrific the aftermath of this
horrific shooting in BramblePark where five people were
shot. And, you know, policecoming out and saying, you know,
we're doing what we can, but weneed help in the neighborhood.
And, you know, it's on all of usto try and figure out how to

(22:43):
create spaces where whereviolence is unacceptable or
where we can you know that thatprovide some level... bubble of
immunity to the these kinds ofthings and and Lamont is doing
it. I read that story. Ithought, wow, well, have they
met Lamont Ragan? He's justdoing this? Yeah.
This was a family reunion.

Yeah, I think I think there are a lot of Lamonts
in Cincinnati who are who aretrying to do things to give kids
opportunities to do other thingsor to be involved with things.
The challenges that are therenever enough right like there
there. There are way more kidsthat need mentors, that need,

(23:20):
you know, positive opportunitiesthan there are Lamonts out there
who are doing it. I think and Ialways feel it necessary to say

I mean, this is just a bunch of people gathered
Yeah,together to like, celebrate and
have a good weekend and onethis when it comes to the
violence and I think the policeactor. Yeah, I think I mean, I
haven't read, you know, thewould cosign on this is that,
you know, we are talking about avery small percentage of
individuals who are wreaking afollow up on it. But a small
group or one actor came in andlot of havoc, you know, like
this is, this is not a the...
not to diminish the problem.
It's a serious problem, but isnot as pervasive in terms of the

(23:48):
number of people who areinvolved in actual committing
violence. In fact, there are farmore of the kids that we're
talking about who aretraumatized by these individuals
than who...

(24:18):
disrupted that whole thing.

Absolutely. And that... and that's the way that
it is in most cases, but a lotof times it gets broadly
painted. As you know, this is ahuge community wide issue. So I
think it's necessary to saythat, that you've got a very
small percentage of people whoare creating a whole lot of
problems. But getting back tothat I do think there is still

(24:39):
this element of we do need tohave more things and more and
more things that our youngerpeople can be involved in and be
a part of, because a lot of whatleads even that small percentage
of people to that activity isnot having a sense of belonging
or being a part of something anda lot of kids wind up in gangs.

(24:59):
gangs and other things, becausethey're looking for they're
looking for love, they'relooking for a sense of belonging
and community and, and that iswhat's around them. And that's
what they see. And that's whatthey fall into.
I think if you talk to a lot ofkids, you know, if you live in
an area where gang activities isprevalent, sometimes you don't

(25:21):
have a choice, like becoming apart of that, that lifestyle is
what you have to do to be ableto survive, to even walk to
school, you know, safely is tobe a part of that. And so it's
never as cut and dry as wethink. But I do think programs
like what Lamont is doing arecritical. One of the things that

(25:41):
kept me on the straight andnarrow, aside from having two
really good parents, was sportswas a big part of, you know, my
development and sports exposedme to so many different things.
It taught me so many differentlife lessons, how to deal with
the success, how to deal withadversity, you know how to deal
with competition, there are somany good things that kids learn

(26:04):
from sports. And we know withfunding being the way that it is
in public schools, and sometimesnow you have to pay to play in
sports.
And if you're coming from atough situation where you're
coming from a low incomehousehold, you might not be able
to afford to play sports in someof these places. And so having

(26:26):
access to free activities likethat they can keep kids
involved, make them a part of ateam have mentorship and
tutoring being provided there, Ican remember we had tutoring
when I play basketball and studyhall after school where we had
to go in so. So there'sstructure that comes from that
type of programming that can bevery good for helping to keep

(26:49):
kids out of out of things thatmight not be so positive, you
know, they say an idle hands arethe devil's workshop, so to
speak. And so there is a bigcomponent to this problem of
having more positive options forkids to take part of and the
free part is a is a key piece tothat. Because knowing some of

(27:11):
the challenges that we have withwith poverty here in Cincinnati,
these have got to be optionsthat are available to kids, and
that they can participate in atno cost. And that's a key piece
to it. So hats off to him.

Yeah, he's...
he's incredible, and is outthere, just I'm sure today doing
the work, you know, without anyexpectation of recognition. So
it was really special to be ableto celebrate him at the
upstander awards. Thinking aboutwhat you said, the power of
education and the fact that youknow, if you believe that every
person is inherently equal andgood, then what's the gap? Like?

(27:46):
Why why do some of us makecertain choices and others make
other choices? And I firmlybelieve it is about education.
And about justaccess and exposure, right? It's

Sure.
which is in itself sort ofdifferent forms of education,
liberally interpreted. I wasthinking about this other story
with another was actually twowomen who want another one of
the upstander Awards, the IrwinHurley award for perspective,
was given to Beth Silvers, andSarah Stewart Holland of the

(28:21):
Pantsuit Politics podcast. Andthese are two women who have
different political sort ofleanings. And they have launched
this conversation podcast serieswhere they tackle really tough
issues from very differentperspectives and sort of model
this way that's grounded inperspective, you know,
perspective, your ownperspectives, but understanding

(28:42):
that there are otherperspectives out there and
perspectives that are groundedin humanity that can be
different. And the reason I wastalking about education here is
because something really specialhappened at the upstander
awards, when Beth and Sarahwhether it was actually Beth, I
believe, who was there toreceive it, Sarah couldn't be
there. But Beth went up onstage. And we had Irwin Hurley,

(29:05):
who was a, you know, an officerin World War II, his son, Dan
Hurley, who we know from news,from, yeah, he's done so much
amazing work in our communityoutside of his time in
television, but So Dan and hissister were on stage to present
the award and Dan brought a copyof a letter that his father

(29:30):
wrote to his mother while he wasserving at the end of the war.
And, and it's really powerful.
It's about education. So I wantto play that now. Not the letter
can't play a letter yet. Staytuned technology. But Beth and
Sarah talked about this on theirpodcast, and they talked about
the letter they received so Iwant to play that real quick. I

(29:53):
think it's really, reallypowerful.

Beth Silvers (29:57):
On Sunday night Chad and I attended the Nancy &
David Wolf Holocaust & HumanityCenter upstander awards in
Cincinnati, Ohio. These awardsrecognize people using their
strengths to stand up forthemselves and others. Hundreds
of people were nominated, I gotto meet and learn about some of
them and it is an absolutelyincredible group of people out

(30:21):
doing the kind of work thatmakes you smile and cry and feel
a sense of humility and awe andunshakable hope. And because of
the caliber of people who werenominated and chosen as
finalists, I was absolutelyshocked when Sarah and I
received the upstander regionalIrwin Hurley award for

(30:42):
perspective.
Irwin Hurley lived in NorthernKentucky, he was deployed to
Europe during World War II, andhis son and his wife were there
for the ceremony and his songave me a letter, along with the
award that Mr. Hurley hadwritten to his wife, Marjorie,
on May 16, 1945. In that letter,Hurley, who did many things to

(31:07):
stand up for justice andequality and humanity during his
career, wrote about what he sawat Dachau, one of the largest
concentration camps in Germany.
He wrote about the incrediblecruelty he had seen firsthand.
And even as he was watching, andwaiting for the war to end, he
was looking around him andforward with a lot of insight

(31:31):
and compassion. So I want toshare this brief paragraph from
the letter with you, becauseI'll be thinking about it for a
long time.
He wrote, "The German people arecompletely conquered. Of that I
am most certain, but it's theyoung ones from 15 to 22, or 23,
that we have to worry about.
They never knew anything exceptHitlerism. It is this group,

(31:53):
even though aware of the horrorsof Dachau, shrug their shoulders
and shut their eyes to it,disregard it, or rather ignore
it as if it didn't exist? Theyare the dangerous ones to the
future of this nation. Ponderfor a minute, if you and I would
have been reared in thatatmosphere never had the
opportunity of knowing anythingelse. If we would have been any

(32:16):
different, maybe, maybe, I hopeso. But not too sure."
I will read this letter 100times and keep it in my heart. I
cannot tell you how honored andtouched I was to receive this
award on behalf of PantsuitPolitics. And when I say that I
mean not just for Sarah and meor for Sarah and me and Alise

(32:37):
and Maggie, but for all of us.
Because everything that createsthat Upstander Ripple Effect
happens way beyond our audiofiles. It's the way you listen
and reflect and discuss andeverything that you do in your
families and communities. I wishI could put this gorgeous trophy
and letter in the mail and sendit on a little tour to every
single one of you listening.

(33:00):
Thank you to the Nancy & DavidWolf Holocaust & Humanity Center
for this tremendous honor. Andfor all of the work that happens
there. It is vital to ourcommunity.

Yeah, incredible, right?

Yeah, yeah, that, I mean, that gets sort of
like right into my wheelhouse,you know, thinking with sort of
an empathetic mind to sort ofthink like, it's easy to sit
back and be judgmental ofpeople, right. Without sort of
putting yourself in, in theirposition and in their shoes. And

(33:34):
I think about this a lot interms of even what we were just
talking about, about the waythat we look at some of our, our
young people are people whodescend into into violence, and
it's sort of like, we're allsort of a product of what we
know. And what we see. Yeah. Andif you don't know anything else,
and you don't see anything else,that you become that which

(33:56):
surrounds you.

Yeah.

And I think we don't think about that enough.
When we, when we are standing injudgment of other people, we're
all the sum total of ourexperiences, and the knowledge
that we have, you know, I canmake certain choices that might
be better choices than somebodyelse, because I've got access to
way more information, I mighthave access to more people, I

(34:19):
might have access to more booksand resources that other folks
can have. I can watch things onTV, some people don't even have
a TV as crazy as that sounds in2024, there are people who exist
in information vacuum, where alot of people don't have access
to things that we take forgranted. And we just assumed

(34:39):
that they do well, how couldsomebody not know you know, I
hear that a lot. How couldsomebody not know this or not be
exposed to that and you will beamazed I say by the number of
kids who don't make it out oftheir neighborhood or don't make
it out of their city to seeother things and that we take
for granted. And you would saywell, that's crazy. See how

(35:00):
could you know, a kid fromCincinnati have never been to
Dayton or you know, even acrossthe river to Newport or
Covington, yet those situationsexist. Yeah. And

yeah, I mean, instead of saying there's
inherently something wrong withthis person, right, instead of
denying their humanity, yeah,just to have the humility in
ourselves to say, wait a minute,exactly what Irwin wrote in that
letter, I would like to thinkthat I would have done could do
better, but probably not, youknow, probably not like, so. But

(35:36):
that is that's thetransformative power of
education. I think it startswith a level of humility, right,
then like, if we're all groundedin the fact that our experiences
are categorizations, aboutthings, the way we perceive the
world might be a product ofwhere we're sitting, and that we
might not know it all. And thereis access to education to help

(35:57):
expose all of us to the thingsthat are outside of our bubble.
That's really what transformsand yeah, it's such it's such a
timeless piece of wisdom.

Yeah. So So you say everybody would like to say
that they think that they woulddo? Oh, yeah. But the reality
is, we probably wouldn't havebecause if we look at we can
even look at in our discoursewithin this country, you talked
about it stepping outside of thebubble. Most people won't do
that even people who haveaccess, they willingly stay
inside of their own bubbles, andwon't venture out to get new

(36:34):
information, or they refuse tosee things beyond their own
experience, or even imagine thatthings could possibly be
different than the reality thatthey know. And that is the same
sort of mindset that we're sortof talking about here. It's easy
to villainize it, because we'retalking about Hitler and Nazism,
right, like that's an that's aneasy target. But we don't we

(36:57):
don't see often see it inourselves, that we won't venture
outside of the knowledge basethat we have to possibly
conclude that we're not as smartas we think we are, that we
don't know, as much as we thinkthat we know. And that there's
that that several differenttypes of truths can exist in the
same space based on individual'sexperience. And you know, that's

(37:20):
why I've always said that Ithink the education system is
probably one of the mostimportant things that we have.
And it is one of the greatequalizers that we do have in
our society, it does, it doesn'tovercome everything. But it does
create a situation where you areable to overcome more, the more
information that you have, themore educated that you are, the

(37:41):
better decisions that you canmake. And the more that you can
change your destiny. And I thinkthat why investment in that more
serious investment in that if wereally want to change the
trajectory of our country andwhere our kids are at, like that
has to be a bigger focus for usis is is really in digging in,

(38:03):
and making sure that we'rereally creating an informed
educated populace. That's, youknow, that that's the key.

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, people want a
quick fix, and a band aid andeducation is a long, it's, it's
the long game.

Yeah.
Absolutely.

The things that we're doing now will show
returns and benefits in oursociety, in a generation, in 10
years. I mean, we, we might notsee it tomorrow. So I think
that's the other problem is thatpeople want like some kind of
quick fix to this. And thereality is that this is, this is
going to require changing theway we think about how people

(38:39):
consume information and accessto information and you know, and
critical understanding ofhistory, you know, looking at
it, not as some removed detachedlist of facts that we have to
memorize, but as an explorationof humanity, for sure. And what

(38:59):
are the lessons we draw fromthat, that help us think about
the times we're living in andwhat we're doing,

You can't know where you're going, if you don't
know where you've been? And ifyou if you just take an excerpt
out of that clip, Mr. Hurleytalked about in his letter, what
we need to be concerned about,is this group, this young group
right now. Yeah. And where arewe going to be in 10? Where are
they going to be in 10, 15years, because where they are,

(39:27):
what they know, and how they seethe world is what's gonna impact
is what's going to have thegreatest impact not just on
them, but on all of us who mightbe around in 10 or 15 years.
So as we look at our country,we've got to say, we've got to
look at our generation of kidsand where they are now because
these are these are the futurepeople who are going to be
running, who are going to berunning our country and if we're

(39:48):
concerned about where thisgeneration is now, if you really
say you're concerned aboutAmerica, and you're I mean, you
know everybody's talking aboutthis this November election and
the ramifications of what that'sgoing to have on the country,
what really is going to haveramifications on our country is
how we're preparing thisgeneration, for 10 or 15 years

(40:09):
now, where, you know, many of usare going to be maybe collecting
Social Security, who knows? Butaround that time, or if there's
any left, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
They, in fact, they, you know,they may have some saying that,
but, but making sure that we'reinvesting in the education of
this generation, and that, thatwe're creating a really group of

(40:29):
smart and I think that's one ofthe things that also kind of
bugs me, and I know, we gottaget, we gotta get ready to get
into

what you're saying, Actually, I think is a
segue

you know, one of the things that really kind of
frustrates me is that thisnotion of, you know,
intelligence used to besomething that we aspire to in
this country. And nowintelligence is being couched as
some sort of coastal elitism inour politics that doesn't speak

(41:06):
to the to the common person. AndI'm just like, where did where
did that come from? Where didbecoming educated? When did
being an educated person becomea, a negative or a dirty thing,
or something that we should notbe proud of like, like that
information? Intelligence,education was something that we

(41:29):
used to aspire to, and as acountry, and now it's sort of
like, we're talking about thelow information voters and
people without college degreesand all of these things, and I,
and I'm not even suggesting thateducation has to equate to a
college degree. I'm just saying,developing a knowledge base, the

(41:49):
value of trying to educate...

Learning

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that, and
we've got to change theconversation around that in that
country, because that is in ourcountry, because that is so self
defeating. I just don't... Idon't understand.

Incentivize learning and curiosity.
Absolutely, you know, museumsare a good way to do that. Just
saying... just put it out there.
Anyway, today, we're featuring astory from the archives about an
amazing human being by the nameof Werner Coppel. He was a
Holocaust survivor. And, youknow, he had this incredible

(42:22):
life. He, he described it as twolife's lives. Actually, he
described it as his quote is, "Iarrived in Union Terminal with a
wife, a baby and a suitcase. Andthat ended the first part of my
life." What had come before was,you know, at 19 years old, he

(42:46):
was forced on a death march outof Auschwitz, where he had been
imprisoned, and miraculously, heescaped, he survived the war.
And he rebuilt his life with hiswife and his baby and his
suitcase. In Cincinnati, he methis moment, so to speak, when he
read something actually, it wasan unpaid insert in the

(43:09):
Enquirer. And he knew he had tospeak. And I was thinking about
the person who's quoted in thispaid insert, who said this
really hateful thing that hewanted to speak up against? This
person was, I'm not I'm notsure. I don't think they were in
Germany, necessarily. But thiswas a generation. Growing up, as
with German heritage, coming outof World War II. And these were

(43:35):
the ideas, right, this was the,this was the sensibility at the
time, in that, you know, inamongst some in that community,
right. And so, as Werner readthis, he said, "This can't
stand." and up until then, noone had spoken out publicly
about their experiences in theHolocaust. He was the first
survivor in Cincinnati to dothat.

(43:57):
So we talk about upstanders...
My gosh, it's like hard toimagine an upstander story that
is more foundational to our workat the center than what Werner
did courageously and heroiclyand the fact that he chose how
he wanted to respond to this. Ina way that didn't become what he
was speaking out against. And ina way that leaned into education
is really special. So yeah, sowe've got the story from the

(44:20):
archives. And I joined CoriSilbernagel, our director of
collections and exhibitions totake a look inside at some
really special pieces aboutWarner story. So we'll show that
now.
Hey, so we are here in thearchives of the Nancy & David
Wolf Holocaust & HumanityCenter. This is not something
that's open to the public. It'sbehind many closed doors for

(44:41):
safekeeping. And we are herewith our incredible curator,
Cori Silbernagel, who reallytakes incredible professional
but also you have a personalpassion for this work, caring
for our amazing collection,which includes documents, you
know, firsthand real documentsthat are survived was brought
with them and others and alsosome artifacts that sort of

(45:03):
illuminate these stories aswell.

Cori Silbernagel (45:05):
Yeah, so our collections document the stories
of Holocaust survivors, othereyewitnesses like American
soldiers and liberators,rescuers, each one of their
stories is different and thethings that they saved is so
different. So today I want toshare with you some of Warner
couples collection. Warner wassomeone who was very close to

(45:30):
our center. Because sharing hisstory was really important.

So it was like a pioneer in doing it. Absolutely.
Yeah. Walk us through a littlebit of what you have in these
but I need to put my gloves on.
Yes, yeah, we are very careful.
If you want to touch anything,that's right, your gloves and
make sure that we are not.

So the first things I want to show you today
are two two photographs ofWarner. I want to give you kind
of a face to the story. So thisis Werner Coppel. He is was born

This would have been after the war that this
in Moers, Germany. He was asurvivor of Auschwitz. So both
of these photographs were takenvery shortly after the war.
After the war, he didn't returnto Moers to stay. He went to

yep, yep. So this was issued on May 3, 1946.
Berlin. So this is his personalidentification card that was
We can learn a lot about Wernerfrom this card, we learned that
sort of he was born in 1925, hishometown, first name, last name,

(46:40):
even his finger fingerprint isthere. And then another
photograph, so

the German government postwar issued these,
for anyone or for people whowere

Yes. So he, he was German, but he was also
stateless. Right? So thisdocument would have been
probably one of the firstidentification documents that
that was issued to him. Thisisn't his passport. This is just
his his national identificationcard.

Wow. Yeah. And this portrait of him, which was
also taken after the war, thisis featured prominently in our
points of light theater. And ifyou have not been done to the
museum, you can need to comebecause we have an amazing film
that talks about Warner and hisstory, and the activation of his
strengths in that story. Andyeah, this this image sticks in

(47:37):
my mind from that film. Yeah. So

Warner story is one of the stories that's
throughout the entire museum. Sowe we start the museum
experience sharing his story inthe lobby, and then it continues
throughout, you know, winners, agreat example of just one person
who I think found found a momentto speak up. And that's what
that film is about. Yeah. Yeah.
powerfully. Yeah, absolutely. Solet me share. Wow, over here, we

(48:03):
kind of can continue revealingWarner story through the
archives. So this is this is anaffidavit that was issued by Sam
funk

in 48. Living in Avondale at the time. Yep, so

he's living in Avondale. But he owns a farm in
New Richmond and ClermontCounty. He This is an affidavit
that really, you know, in manyways afforded Boerner and his
family, their American visas toimmigrate. Wow. So Sam funk is
sponsoring Warner, noting thathe's going to give Warner

(48:45):
employment that he won't, youknow, be a burden on American
society. Yeah.

And you had to have that in order to in order
to immigrate as a refugee.

You had one of many documents. Yeah. So this
document notes, you know,Warner's name and includes his
wife, and he had a son that hecame on. So Werner and Trudy,
his wife had two sons, Ron andSteve. Ron was just a baby when
they arrived here. And thenSteve was born in Cincinnati,

That's his quote, I arrived in Cincinnati
with a wife a baby in asuitcase, right?

Absolutely.
Absolutely.

There was the baby.

Yep. Yep. Then kind of continuing the story. We
have his public schoolcertificate of citizenship
classes, so Werner and all ofthe new immigrants arriving to
Cincinnati or elsewhere, whetherthey were coming from Germany or

(49:46):
somewhere else. They wanted tobecome American citizens. So
many people took night classesto learn English. They took
citizenship classes to you know,learn a variety of things and
Cincinnati Public Schoolsfacilitated that in our
community. So this is Werner'scertificate. We also have

(50:09):
Trudy's.

I was gonna say and I think Trudy's is the one
actually that's in thestairwell, right and on the way
down to the museum. So again,yeah, you come to the museum,
and you can see this, you know,in in large print, the facsimile
of it, proudly, sort of on thewall there, down the stairs, as
you come into the museum. I wasassumed that Warner had one
obviously, as well, but I'venever seen that. Yeah, never

(50:30):
seen it. So

this was issued in 1954. They gained
citizenship shortly after.
Werner was part of New HopeSynagogue in Cincinnati. He was
connected to the Jewishcommunity here. And he was
someone who I think, I think heshared his story, but not very

(50:53):
publicly for a long time. So thenext thing I will show you is
this article. This, you know,you can learn much more about
this in the museum. But this isthe article that they learned
and I are Yeah, it inspiredWerner to speak out. So one day,

(51:13):
he opens the CincinnatiEnquirer. And he sees in the
insert inside of the newspaper,an article, "German Americans
Pride vs Politics," and in it,Eugene von Riestenberg, who is
at the time, the president ofthe German American Citizens

(51:33):
League of Cincinnati, He isquoted in this article saying
that the Diary of Anne Frank isa fake. Yeah, I mean, he's he's
survived a death march out ofAuschwitz. And this was
outrageous, this Holocaustdenial that he experienced.

Is this when he the piece he kept? This is...
this was the copy, a copy ofthat article that he kept.

Yeah. So this is a copy of what he kept to us
that he, you know, what he keptand donated to us.

You can see even marked as these are his
markings, there where thatpeace... I can, I actually can't
imagine what that was like toread that after what he'd been
through. And to think just allof the things that went through
his mind about how he shouldrespond, but, you know, we know
how the story played out and howhe ended up responding, right,
which was to speak his truth,the truth about what had

(52:27):
happened and and that startedthis wave of survivors, and
others having, you know, theinspiration and the courage to
speak out publicly as well.

Yeah, I think.
You know, Werner, again, is just

Yeah. And I think about the the need, like,
an example of one person who,you know, found a way to, to
react, and he found a way to,you know, write the good
history, instead of to, youknow, continue to play into this
general Holocaust denial and tobe silent and to ignore it. He

(53:04):
wanted to, he wanted to letpeople know that the Holocaust
certainly did happen. Yeah.
Because he was there. And heexperienced
we would like to think that thiswhole trend of Holocaust denial,
revisionism, et cetera, oh,that's a crazy thing that

(53:24):
happened back then. And it's notaround anymore. Unfortunately,
we know that there's a growingschool of that. And I think
about Werner and his choice tospeak and his courage as sort of
a grounding. I mean, I know forall of us, it's kind of a it's a
grounding piece of the work thatwe do every day, right. It's in

(53:47):
a moment of continued, you know,proliferation of hate and
antisemitism and Holocaustdenial, remembering how he chose
to respond to that, by educatingand by illuminating is really
powerful. And I think it'sinstructive for all of us as we
keep doing the work. So

and, and Werner's just one act, which
then again, is this rippleeffect that carries through the
rest of his life of continuingto speak and speak and speak
more and more? It reminds medoing that work that, you know,
we can have soft voices, butmake a huge impact too.

I love that. It is so true. And I you know, I
talk about this sometimes in thehumanity galleries, I'm leading
tours, but it's the same thinghere. Werner didn't wake up one
day and say, "Oh, I envisionthis future with an archives
like this and you know, a museumthat educates." He said "This, I
need to respond to this. I needto figure out how to act. This

(54:47):
has activated me in a way thatthat calls me to the meet this
moment." And, and he did. And toyour point, the ripple of that
right that became this and thatbecame this and other survivors
were inspired to speak, and hefound sort of this, you know,
rhythm of education that hecarried with him throughout the
rest of his life. And here weare today because of it. So

(55:10):
yeah, really special. And, andthere's one other piece that I
want to see here

Sure. There's one other item I pulled out from
Werner's collection. That isreally, really special. We don't
exhibit it often in the museumbecause it's in very poor
condition. But this is ahaggadah that is used during
Passover Seder. This Haggadahwas buried in Berlin. During the

(55:40):
war, it wasn't buried by Wernerby someone else. But after the
war, when Werner was in Berlin,he and others unearthed these
items, which included Judaicaprayer books, and this Haggadah
was part of that.

Wow.

So it was used in one of the first seders after
the war. And he brought it withhim here to Cincinnati. So, you
know, Werner's connection toJudaism. His connection to his
culture, to his family, histradition, I think was really

(56:19):
important to him. And I'mcertain that that must have kind
of called him to, to speak.

Informed his activism in that moment.

Yeah.

And his his, his telling of his story. This I
like, was getting choked up.
Just listening... looking atthis, and being so close to it,
something that survived, right?
Such a catastrophic chapter ofhistory. And I just think about

(56:51):
the amazing survival andperseverance of the Jewish
tradition. And the fact that youcould look back over chapters of
Jewish history for 1000s and1000s of years and whether there
are collapsible menorahs, youknow, that then were hidden
during I think it was actuallyduring the Inquisition, I saw
one in a museum in one of thesynagogues, the more synagogues

(57:15):
in the south, to something likethis, that, you know, Jews at
the time knew that there weregoing to be other Jews who would
need this. They had the they hadthe forethought and the hope.
And the the audacity to knowthat this wasn't going to be the
end of the Jewish story, andthat there would be Jews who
would need this. And they keptit and they saved it, and they

(57:37):
hid it. And the fact that it wasfound and it continues today is
just like, yeah, yeah, reallypowerful. Yeah.

And, you know, because it was brought here to
Cincinnati. I think it alsogives way to this idea that, you
know, the Holocaust is, isinternational history, right?
It's European history. GlobalHistory. Yeah. But, but it's our

(58:05):
local history, too. And thisHaggadah also has a story here.
That part of it story. Yes. Hereand it continues today.

Yeah. Did he? Do you know if he ever used it
after he found it? Or was I'msure he wanted to keep it?

Yes. So I know that it was used, you know, in
that first Seder, but I don'tknow how often it was used after
the war. It'd be an interestingquestion to ask Steve or Ron, if
they remember having this intheir home.

Wow.

Growing up, or,

Yeah, and the story of you know, the Haggadah.
For those who don't know, thePassover story is all about
liberation. Right. The wholething is about a journey to
freedom. And, you know, having apiece that survived its own
chapter of liberation, its ownchapter of... that is really,
really amazing. Wow, well,people will get a sneak peek of
something that we don't oftenput in the museum because again,

(59:01):
it's so so fragile. You can telljust by looking at it. It's It's
um,

yeah, it's a treasure, though. It's really
it's you know, every everythingin our archives tells a really
important story. But this is astory that, you know, we have to
be sharing, and we can't forget.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for
sharing with me. So there's oneother piece that I know you want
to show folks, and I can't waitfor people to see because it's,
it's just so special.

Yeah. So this is another piece in our
collection that we don't oftenshare in the museum, but it is.
It's amazing. It has an amazingstory. So this is the suitcase
that Werner and Trudy packed allof their belongings in and
traveled to Cincinnati with.

Wow.

So Werner...
when I used to hear Wernerspeak, he spoke to students as
long as he could. When Wernerwould share his story. He would
always begin by saying, "Iarrived in Union Terminal with a
wife, a baby, and a suitcase.

(01:00:09):
And he would say that began thesecond part of my life. Now, let
me go back and tell you aboutwhat happened before." So this
suitcase is that suitcase thathe would talk about. It's really
special. It includes handwritten on it, his name,

(01:00:29):
Cincinnati, where they willarrive to, you know, so as, as
Werner and Trudy and Rontraveled on a ship to the United
States arrived in New Yorkharbor. This suitcase also did,
the suitcase went on the journeytoo.

Jackie Congedo (01:00:48):
Wow. And this.
So he had this suitcase and yousaid one other with it. And that
was that was everything?

Cori Silbernagel (01:00:55):
Yeah, as far as I know. So he also brought
with him a wicker trunk thatcontained things also. Werner
was the only survivor of hisfamily, though. He, he didn't
have many things, or peoplearound him after the war. So he

(01:01:17):
began his rebuilding in Germany,and the rebuilding continued
here. So...

The Haggadah was one of the things that was in
the suitcase or possibly withhim on his, on his person as he
arrived. It's so it's, I mean,just for scale, like it's
shorter than I am tall. And Ijust, you know, some of us think
about, you know, how long tripto Europe or something, and they

(01:01:45):
would pack this much. And thisis this and one other suitcase
about the same size. Yeah, iscontained everything that that
Werner in his family had withthem to start their second
chapter of their life here inCincinnati. It's so, so
powerful. And you can see eventhough the handles the leather

(01:02:05):
handles on the side, one overhere, I think is broken. It's
just, it's amazing. So thiswould have come, I guess,
through freight. Right. If hewas coming off the train,
everyone, everything came into,as you said, into New York
harbor. Yeah. Yeah. And then hewould have taken he and his
family would have taken thetrain. Yeah, come through Union

(01:02:26):
Terminal.

Probably, yeah. Yeah. So you know, at some
point, this, you know, again, itmade the journey. It made the
journey as his family did. Youknow, artifacts like this have
so much power to tell amazing,deep stories that people might
not otherwise ever, ever knowabout. So every chance I get I

(01:02:49):
tried to share Werner'ssuitcase.

I was gonna say, where do you share it? I mean,
do we have opportunities to putthis out? Or to show kids you
know, as in different settings?

Yeah. So we recently, it was recently
exhibited two years ago now inthe Jewish Bicentennial exhibit
as the city, you know,celebrated this, you know, huge
Jewish history here. This, thissuitcase, along with others were
shared to, you know, representall of these people that richly

(01:03:25):
contributed to our city, newAmerica. Yeah. So they, they
were shared to symbolize thisrebuilding. And Werner's story
is certainly so interwoven intothe fabric of of that narrative.
We also recently shared thesuitcase with teachers at our
Kaltman Institute, you know, tohelp help teachers also find

(01:03:50):
creative ways to storytell, tohelp their students make
connections, and to find to findtheir own connection to these
people who, you know, may seemvery old to them, very, you
know, far away. But it's not faraway.

This is right here. I mean, you can - Can I
touch it?

Absolutely

With my gloves on. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And you
can see it even in the back howthat fabric, yeah. Like it's
wrapped in fabric and kind ofpainted.

Yeah. So there's some parts that are
really fragile and on it,

to see that the same, you know, same with the
address, which would have beenwhere it was headed, I can't
even imagine, you know, and hehad never, we take for granted,
you know, the coming peoplecoming and going these days.
It's like, easy to hop a planeor whatever, you know, to train,
but in these days, you know, hethis was a whole new world. I
mean, you've never been outside.
Have you ever been outsideEurope before the war?

I don't know.
I don't know. I don't think so.

I don't think so either. So, just the courage. I
can't even imagine the courageit took to and to have your
child with you and your wifewith you and to feel like you
were pioneering this new...

and responsible to take care of your
family?

Yeah, really.
And think about the Coppelfamily now. Right? They have
generations of couples who arehere and part of our community
and our neighbors and friends.
And yeah, on our board. And it's

Well, and I would argue, I mean, even the,
you know, this courage and thebravery that Werner had, yeah,
is been passed down to hischildren. Yeah, sure. In the
way, Steve and Ron both sharetheir family stories, that
legacy of of, you know, standingup and speaking out, continues.

Kevin Aldridge (01:05:38):
So many thoughts. Just watching that,
that video, just how powerful itis. And, and first of all, just,
you know, just from a historicalstandpoint, the power and the
impact of artifacts, right, andjust being able to have those
things that connect you to aperiod of time and to be able to
see it and touch it, and to seehow time, the effects of the

(01:06:01):
time has had on it and almostkind of try to transport
yourself back mentally, in yourmind, you know, to those times.
And, you know, I was thinkingabout, you know, if I were a
kid, yeah, coming through themuseum, and with my modern day
sensibilities, and looking at,you know, Werner's suitcase, I'd

(01:06:24):
be like, "Well, you know, it'sjust a suitcase, you know,
what's the big deal about you nobig deal about a suitcase?" But
when you think about what thatsuitcase represents, not just
that everything that he had, hewas bringing in that suitcase
with him to sort of start a newlife. But it all it is also

(01:06:46):
representative of everythingthat he had lost, and was
leaving behind as well. Becauseif we think about I was thinking
about man, if I'm, you know, ifI'm traveling, or I'm moving to
someplace, you know, I gotta geta moving truck I got to do I got
all of this stuff that I'mtaking with me to wherever I'm
going. And then the notion ofthat everything that you have,

(01:07:11):
you've compacted into thissuitcase, that you're taking
with you to start over. Andthat's not only a symbol of what
you have everything that youhave, but what are you what have
you lost? And what are youleaving behind it's like, and
when you start to think aboutthings like that, it really does
help you wrap your mind aroundthe gravity of why Werner felt

(01:07:35):
that he had to literally respondto that article that he read,
you know, without, withoutthinking about all of that, you
know, one might say, you know,and these days and times where
there's so much misinformationthat's out there, you know, it's
easy to kind of say, I'm notgoing to try to respond to every
crazy thing that I see on socialmedia, or the or in the

(01:07:57):
internet, or that sort of thing.
We kind of slough a lot of thatoff is just crazy talk or, you
know, nobody's really going tobelieve that, although we know
that that's, that's notnecessarily true, like people
believe a lot of people believea lot of misinformation. But,
but back in these days, andthese times, for someone who
went through the experience ofthe Holocaust and lost so much,

(01:08:20):
it's easy to understand how hejust could not abide someone
saying that that didn't happen.
And feeling compelled, you know,to have to say something and not
just sit on that. And and, and Ithink you know, the great thing
about the history and thearchives and seeing that it

(01:08:43):
really kind of helps youunderstand a little bit more
than mentality that drivessomebody like Werner to say, you
know, I'm not gonna allow that.

Yea, and to speak for, obviously, what he
had been through. But on behalfof the 6 million people who
aren't here to tell whathappened to them. That's I
think, and I know, that's theresponsibility that so many
survivors and their descendantsfeel right. You know, we can

(01:09:15):
relate to that in anymarginalized community and
identity. It's like, you know,you're not just speaking for
you, you're speaking on behalfof an entire people and
certainly those who aren't hereto for sure to speak for
themselves. So it is aremarkable story of upstanding
and it really grounds us, wehave a great conversation in our

(01:09:39):
video series Hear My Story onYouTube, which there are links
to in the notes conversationwith Brad and Steve. So, Brad,
Steve Coppell, Werner's son andand then Steve's son Brad got
together and talked about hislegacy and this moment of
upstanding and beyond, and soyou'll definitely if you want to

(01:10:01):
hear more about Werner's storyand hear from his son and his
grandson, you should check thatout as well.

I think don't underestimate too, you know what
it must have taken for Werner totell his story. So, so again,
this is just how my mind worksand how I think, here is a man
who's sharing the most traumaticexperience of his life. And if

(01:10:27):
you've ever in if anybody's everendured a trauma, think about
how difficult that it mostpeople don't want to relive
that, let alone let alone tellthat story like, right like you
don't want to think about, uh,you don't want to have those
memories, let alone feel theneed to have to come out and
experience that pain and tell itto offset, you know, just sort

(01:10:49):
of a nasty, vicious lie oruntruth. And so let's not
underestimate you know, what itwhat it took to have to revisit,
you know, as you're trying to asyou've rebuilt,

You're just trying, I mean, I think there
was this common, sounderstandable idea that I'm
just want to fit in, yeah, Idon't want to be different. I
want to be American, I want tolearn the language, I want to,
you know, it's like thisotherness, had created such

(01:11:27):
hardship, and had beenassociated with so much trauma.
That yeah, I mean, it was it. Ithink so, so many of many of the
survivors just wanted to, "I'mjust like everyone else," you
know, and so yeah, it wastapping into that vulnerability
in the deep trauma and sadness,you know, and having to relive

(01:11:49):
that, but it was also having toactually kind of say, "I'm
different."

Yeah.

And, you know, in a way that in a way that had,
because of the hatred of otherpeople, had caused such terrible
loss in my life and trauma. Andso yes, I think courage is an
understatement. And strength,certainly strength and stamina.
But, you know, look, look atwhat it inspired.

The ripple effect is, is just so profound
by that, and not in only when heencouraged, you know, other
survivors to come out and sharetheir stories. But what that
eventually became, and even thereason why you and I are here,
now, you know, even having thisconversation, again, it just

(01:12:39):
goes to show the power of theripple effect and how standing
up and one moment, doing oneseemingly small thing, you know,
can have huge, huge impacts thatbenefit that benefit a whole lot
of people. And I think we're allbetter today, because of what

(01:13:00):
Werner did, you know, all ofthose years ago, and just
standing up and saying, "Youknow what, I ain't gonna let
that I'm just I'm not gonna letthat slide."

Go unanswered.
Yeah.

And, and sometimes, you know, on my end,
at the Enquirer, I get a hardtime, particularly around issues
of race. People say, you know,Kevin, you've always got
something to say, you know, somereaders you always writing
about, about race, why can't youlet it? Why can't you just let
it go? Why do you have to sayevery time there's something Why

(01:13:32):
do you have to say something? Ithink Werner is a perfect
example of why you have to dothat. Because yeah, you you
know, it can be annoying. It canget on people's nerves, but it's
necessary sometimes to callthings out for what they are and
to say, "You know what, I'm justnot going to let I'm not going
to let that stand." Yeah, youknow

So well said.
And so you know, we had aanother upstander this month,
another upstanders story wewanted to feature, which is
really a name that many peopleare familiar with is Debra
Messing, who is an award winningactress, and actually was our
celebrity host at our upstanderawards. You know, the biggest

(01:14:16):
event of our year. As we'vetalked about, we spend that
whole evening celebratingupstanders we also I was so
privileged to be able to have aconversation with her. Yeah and
she she joined us that night tohonor this community of
upstanders here in Cincinnatiand the share a little bit more

(01:14:38):
about her life and her work andher advocacy for human rights.
So I want to talk a little bitmore about your upstanding work
your sort of role as anupstander. You've been an
advocate for so many causes forof course, the Human Rights
Campaign, and the LGBTQ sort ofcommunity and issues, but also

(01:15:01):
the global fight against HIV andAIDS as global ambassador for
PSI, visiting preventionprograms in several African
countries, even testifyingbefore Congress to help secure
100 million dollars in aid forthat work. And now you've really
become an upstander, I would sayactually continued to be but

(01:15:23):
sort of moved into the front ofyour advocacy against
antisemitism. Can you talk alittle bit about your work on
this issue today, and sort ofwhat compelled you to center
that in your advocacy?

Debra Messing (01:15:38):
Charlottesville was the pivotal moment for me,
when I saw people with Tikitorches, walking and saying,
"Jews will not replace us." Itwas so chilling, and so
terrifying. That I, I felt like,Okay, I have to get involved

(01:16:04):
now. I think growing up everyday, my parents spoke to me
about the Holocaust. Theirconversation conversations where
you have to have more than threechildren so that we could
replenish the people lost in theHolocaust. But I think what
happened was, because theHolocaust was so unimaginable

(01:16:30):
that it I think my generationfelt like it was almost a
promise that would never happenagain, that we would be educated
about it. But it wouldn'thappen. And I think October 7,
was when I was ignited intoaction.

So you've you've really used your platform, to
raise awareness about Holocausteducation to combat not just
antisemitism, but really therampant hate that is unchecked
in online spaces. And you'vebeen doing more and more with
organizations like ours,Holocaust museums and
organizations. And now you'reproducing a documentary on

(01:17:15):
antisemitism sort of what we'veseen in particular in the United
States since October 7. Why isHolocaust history in your mind,
so important right now?

Education is everything. Facts matter. And I
think our educational system hasfailed us. I believe the number

(01:17:50):
is 65% of of schools in Americaactually teach the Holocaust at
all. And that's unacceptable.
When I heard that, kids today,when you say the word Auschwitz,
most of them don't know whatthat word is. It just became so

(01:18:12):
clear to me that Holocausteducation is everything. And we
need places like this in everysingle town.

You can clap for that.

We do. Because for some reason, the Jews as a
people are segregated from everyother kind of racism and hatred
in in all of humanity. And it'salways been that way. And it may

(01:19:05):
not it may not fix the problem.
But it will educate people sothat they're not ignorant. And
as long as people have the factsand today that is a very, very
challenging thing to accomplish,because of all the propaganda

(01:19:28):
and all of the lies and all thedenialism I feel like that is
our most urgent call to actionis to educate about the
Holocaust.

It was a pretty it was a pretty impactful
evening all around and, youknow, she she's been a really
strong voice in this space. Um,It was really interesting to
hear her talk about what ignitedthat. Yeah, in some ways,
actually, it's the same stories.
And it's like, I heard themsaying that, and I just couldn't
let it be right. Werner the samething.

Yeah, yeah, I think it goes back to - and I
love the thread that's kind ofgone through this whole podcast
from the beginning, because wesort of started talking about
national observances, and theintentionality of making sure
that we maintain freedoms, andso forth and so on. And the

(01:20:33):
thing that spoke to me about herwas sort of being jolted into
action. And there's this sensethat I think we've all got to
recognize that it shouldn'ttake, or we can allow it to
necessarily take for tikitorches and marches or an
October 7, to propel us intoactivity, we got to do more

(01:20:56):
preventive maintenance, asopposed to reactionary
responses. And so I think, andit's human nature, I mean, I
think it's, you know, part of itis we all have to be kind of
shaken out of our, our comfortor complacency, and to in the
moving into action. But I think,you know, we all need to develop

(01:21:19):
a sense of, and I get it, it'sexhausting. You know, we're all
looking for an opportunity forrespite and, you know, where's
my day off kind of attitude. Butthe reality is, is that when we
take days off, the tiki torchholders, they're there, they're
not taking days off, they'recontinuing to mobilize and, you

(01:21:40):
know, kind of try to affectstrategies to roll those back.
And so we do have to bevigilant, but that was that was
just something that, that Ithought about, as I as I heard
her talk about, you know, justsort of that spark is that
that's great. And we need morefolks like Debra and others to
sort of step up and use theirplatforms and their voices. But,

(01:22:03):
boy, we got to get to a placewhere it doesn't take, you know,
just unconscionable oroutrageous events that to spark
us into into that type ofactivism.

Yeah. And I gotta say, you know, she's she
has been, she's been reallyactually unique. You know, you
look at Hollywood. Yeah. Andthey're, you know, there are few
people, relatively few peoplespeaking, she is one of few. And
so I give her, you know, a lotof credit, as you do to, you

(01:22:35):
know, for, for stepping in.
Yeah, in that moment when othershave stayed silent.

Yeah. Well, she kind of talked about that, you
know, in her in her remarks thatnight that, you know, there are
some people who just aren'twilling to risk what comes along
with what potentially comesalong with lending your voice.
Yeah, that that people are veryare protecting, you know, very
self interested in protectingwhat they have going for them,

(01:23:04):
and they're not willing to stepout on the platforms and show
the courage that she has shownto stand on these these sorts of
issues. And that's, and, youknow, I mean, we even see that
we even see that here in ourcommunity, a lot of the silence
that, you know, we see around alot of issues in this community,
is people are not willing torisk fear.

Yeah, fear of retribution.

I mean, and there is that I mean, you know,
we live in a time where peopleare going to come after you if
you if you take a stance in aparticular situation that they
don't like, and, and a lot ofpeople are just not willing to
risk that.

Yeah. Yeah. You have to be able to at the end of
the day, look at yourself. Yeah,mirror. And I think that she,
she can do that. So it was sucha privilege to have her in
conversation. Really? Yeah.
Awesome to have her inCincinnati.

Yeah, for sure.
For sure. Well, I think we haveprobably used more than more
than enough of our time.

If you're still with us. Amazing. Kudos,
congratulations, come back nexttime. You know, leave your
reviews and ratings for us. Wewant to be able to incorporate
those and be in conversationaround some things you're
thinking about as you'relistening. And you can also
listen to the full interviewswith with Werner Coppel's

(01:24:27):
descendants, his son and hisgrandson, and with Debra Messing
on our Hear My Story series,which is on YouTube. So you'll
find the links to those in theshow notes. And it's it's been
fun. We'll do it again in amonth.

Yeah, looking forward to it. And I sincerely
hope that that we will hear fromour listeners and let us know
what we can, what we can dobetter what you want to hear
more of, and all of that willcontribute to making this a
really great experience, I thinkfor everybody who wants to be a
part of the Upstander RippleEffect.

Truly, there's there's a there's there's room
for all of us. Alright, we'llsee you next time. Let us know
your thoughts on this episode.
Our email is in the show notes.
You can listen anytime onSpotify, Apple podcasts, or
visit Holocaust & humanitycenter.org/podcast You can also
connect with us on Instagram andTiktok @holocaustandhumanity and

(01:25:20):
X and Facebook @cincyhhc.
The Upstander Ripple Effect is aproduction of the Nancy & David
Wolf Holocaust & HumanityCenter. The Center's mission is
to ensure that the lessons ofthe Holocaust inspire action
today. This series is part ofthe Cynthia & Harold Guttman
Family Center for Storytelling.
Visit us in person at historicUnion Terminal in Cincinnati,
Ohio or online anytime atholocaustandhumanity.org

(01:25:44):
Managing producer is AnneThompson. Consulting producer is
Joyce Kamen. Technical Produceris Robert Mills and Technical
Director is Josh Emerson. Theopening sequence is by Ken
Furman. Archive videography byMichael holder. Select music is
by Kick Lee and this is recordedTechnical Consulting Partners
studios in Cincinnati, Ohio.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 2: "Turning Points: Moments of Upstanding" featuring Werner Coppel and Debra Messing