Episode 7: "Building Community" featuring Rob Herman, Beth Silvers and Sarah Stewart Holland

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kevin Aldridge (00:02):
What do we mean by the upstander ripple effect,

Werner Coppel (00:06):
stand up against hate and prejudice, even if it
does not affect you

Jackie Congedo (00:13):
from moral dilemmas in today's headlines,
upstanders who rose for justiceand stories of survival,

be prepared to walk away from this conversation
inspired and motivated.

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the
ripple effect Episode Seven. I'mJackie Congedo

and I'm Kevin Aldridge, and our theme for
today is going to be buildingcommunity. And I know right now
that might not be sound like agreat thing, or even a possible
thing, for where we are rightnow in the country, following
the election, where we aredealing with a very divided
country, and the electionresults in a close election,

(00:58):
when you look at The margins ofthe election, maybe not
electorally, was still veryclose, and I think a lot of
people are struggling with theresults of that, if you are not
a Trump supporter, and ofcourse, if you are, you know, a
Trump supporter, you'reobviously very happy today, and,
you know, looking forward to thedirection that the country is

(01:20):
going on. And I think a lot ofpeople you know who are not fans
of Trump, are really trying toreconcile and wrestle with how
their neighbors, you know, couldvote for someone that they find
so unfit, so detestable, forlack of a better word, in some
cases, someone so lacking in andmoral character that then

(01:45):
suddenly you kind of start tolook around, and you looking at
your neighbors a little bitsideways now wondering, like, if
you really know those folksafter all. And, and it's
difficult to sort of understandthis concept of trying to build
community when people arefeeling that way.

Yeah, and I think, you know, it's not just
the folks who may have voted forHarris who feel that way about
their neighbors. I would argue,even though you know the folks
who supported the formerpresident are pleased with the
outcome, I think they stillprobably carry, you know,

(02:24):
certain ideas and fears andconcerns about their neighbors
who didn't. Yeah, so you knowwhat is different now than it
was before the election? Well,we know who the winner is, but
what has not changed is the sortof divide in our in our country,
related to, you know, both sidesfeeling in their bones that the

(02:47):
other side is not just anotherside, but an actual existential
threat, yeah, to our country, totheir security as human beings,
to their values and so. So Ithink you're right. I think that
this idea of building community,we looked at the our producer,
Anne, and said, Are you crazyright now? And she said, guys,

(03:12):
you're just gonna have to to digdeep and and the more we talked
about this theme, the more youknow now I really am. I'm sort
of fully converted. I think thatit's the it is the essential
project of this moment, and it'ssomething that's, I think, going
to be very hard for both sidesto do, but, but, but the stakes

(03:37):
are quite high if we don'tprioritize that. So I think I
would first just say that, ifyou're listening right now and
you're like, this episode isn'tfor me right now, that's okay.
You should go for a walk in thewoods. Get a massage, you know,
hug your dog, whatever you needto do to find some space, to

(03:57):
continue to process where you'reat and to take care of yourself.
Because I think there are a lotof people who, you know, I say
that sort of placating, but whoare a lot really struggling
right now, and you can't reallybe expected to, like,
effectively engage with peoplewho and to because you have to,
you really have to, like,channel your best self to do

(04:17):
that work and to extend thatkind of benefit of benefit of
the doubt, particularly when thestakes are this high, I think
there are a lot of people whojust aren't there yet.

Yeah, and dealing with the emotions is an
important part of this. BecauseI think that what's going to be
required of us to buildcommunity is not that our not
that our emotions don't do uscredit, but our intellect, our
logic, our pragmatism, is goingto be the thing that kind of
helps us move forward and so andthat's all offline in an

(04:47):
emotional state, right? Andsometimes, when our emotions are
heightened, it's difficult forus to think sort of clearly.
Sometimes our emotions can helpus become more clear eyed. But
if. Actually at a certain point,we have to get to a point where
we have to think through thesethings and and try to problem
solve without, without gettingtoo swept up or caught up in our

(05:11):
emotions at any one given point

in time. Yeah.
I'm curious, have you talkedwith anybody who feels
differently than you have sincethe election? Oh,

yeah. Oh, you mean, like somebody who voted
for Donald Trump, yeah, yeah,yes. And it's not different than
what you might expect. I mean, Ithink they're much more, much
more sober. And have, you know,a soberness that comes with the
victory of being on the winningside.

Do the governing? Yeah, yeah.

I think you can.
You can kind of expect thatthere was, there wasn't really
any gloating or anything likethat in the people that I've
talked with really kind oftrying to, you know, to put it
in the face, but more so justkind of reiterating their points
about where they feel like thecountry is, and that, you know,
many people felt like thecountry was moving in the wrong

(06:01):
direction, and now this is anopportunity, of course correct,
and I think that that's reallywhat's at heart here, when we're
talking about, you know,community building. We we're
we're always at this. If there'sone thing that we can agree on
as Americans, it's that we wantto build a more perfect union. I
think the disagreement is, whatdoes that what that union looks
like, and how, and how do we getthere? And I think that's where,

(06:22):
that's where the struggle is,and that's where it can become
this notion of, if you don'tagree with my direction, then
you're not about trying toimprove the country. You're
about trying to destroy thecountry. And I think to some
degree, we can't, we can't be sobinary and myopic that we look

(06:43):
at things in that fashion.
Because I think when we do that,we cut out, we cut out the
middle ground, or thepossibility that, hey, neither
vision is probably 100% the bestvision. Maybe the truth is
somewhere in between, and maybewe have to get to that. You

(07:05):
know, that in between, point ofcompromise where we're able to
actually get to that, that youthat more perfect union, or the
principles of the country thatwe that we wanted to live up to,
because to hear everybody talk,everybody loves America like
everybody wants the best thing.

I mean, one of the one of the positive pieces.
I think it was among you'regoing to correct me, because
you're more synced up with, sortof the actual facts around this.
But the highest voter turnout,one of the highest voter turn. I
mean, so that's to your point.
Regardless of what side you fellon, everybody wanted to
participate. Yes, this time,and, you know, in bigger numbers
than ever, and so that thatdefinitely, I think, tells the

(07:44):
story about people who caredeeply about building that more
perfect union, a better country.
It's just two different ideasabout what that looks like and
how to get there. Well, youknow, I want to just along the
lines of talking about buildingcommunity in the context of the
history. So I was doing a littlebit of research about, you know,

(08:08):
what the concept of communitylooked like, you know, in Nazi
Germany and and it turns outthat, you know, in the 1920s
Hitler and the Nazi Party wereseeking to create this National

(08:28):
Peoples or national community.
And so we think about buildingcommunity. In German it's the
volksgemeinschaft, I think, iswhat, what it's called, or what
they called it. And so, youknow, we think about building
community. There was this kindof community, right, that that
the Nazis were sort of engagedin the act of trying to build,

(08:49):
and this was based on thefoundations of race, ethnicity
and social behavior. And so, youknow, it excluded groups and
individuals that the Nazisconsidered racially,
biologically, politically orsocially undesirable. So this,
this was a very intentionalarticulation and sort of

(09:11):
movement to build a certain kindof community. And we, we know,
we know in hindsight, now, andmany I'm sure knew at the time,
but certainly we can all say nowthat this was a very bad form of
community. This was a communitythat had catastrophic

(09:31):
consequences for for Jews, forall of the victims of Nazi
persecution, for Germany and forthe world and all of humanity,
right? And so, you know, I'vebeen thinking about the project
of building community right now,and along the lines of, kind of
how we approach these things atthe museum, we can learn from
sort of the darkness in thathistory. But the But the bigger

(09:52):
question is, well, what does thealternative look like? Right?
Can say this is not, this didnot right. Exemplify the best of
humanity, right? This was, thiswas a this was the wrong path.
The question is, what is thewhat is the right path? What
does it look like? How do wearticulate that vision for what
building the good kind ofcommunity to look like? And and

(10:16):
actually, I think there are acouple of models out there
related to what positive,healthy, strong, inclusive
communities, and the project ofbuilding those, one of them,
obviously, is Dr King's idea ofthe beloved community, right?
And I've just been thinkingabout, you know, what the

(10:38):
difference is between thedifferences are between the
volksgemeinschaft, the Nazisvolksgemeinschaft peoples, or
national community, and DrKing's idea, or concept of this
beloved community. And it occursto me that one is grounded in
dehumanization and the other isgrounded in humanizing. Yeah,
absolutely right. So it's thisexercise of building community

(11:02):
that's grounded in our sharedhumanity and in seeing the human
being in someone who may look,think, feel, act, pray, you
know, identify differently.

Yeah, yeah. I think that, you know, Dr King
talked about in his concept waskind of a community where
everybody is cared for and wherethere's where there's space for
everybody. So when we talkabout, what do good communities
look like? Good communities makespace for everyone. Good
communities don't expect foreveryone to be the same. They

(11:38):
don't look at diversity assomething that is a an ankle
weight. They look at it assomething that elevates, not
holds us back, and it embracesdiversity, you know. I think
this concept of America, youknow, and I've heard this a
couple of times, you know, itused to be, we talked about
America as a melting pot, right?
So a melting pot is basically,you know, whatever flavor,

(12:02):
right, right, whateveringredients you bring to the
table, you know, the sharedflavor, right? You're, you're
dropped into this, this, thisthing, and you become a part of
this mix. And I think there aremany folks in America who sort
of feel like that, like, ifyou're, if you're an immigrant
who comes to this country, thenyou assimilate, and you become a
part of America. And manyimmigrants who have come into

(12:24):
this country over the years, Iwould imagine a lot of you know,
Jewish people in Cincinnati sortof feel the same way that when
they came to America, theywanted to become Americans and

and language, customs, sort of, you know,

absolutely, and I think somewhat over the years
that has, that has morphed intothis idea of less of a melting
pot and more of, kind of like asalad, you know, where all of
the toppings are, you see there,and each, you know, the tomato,
the crouton, the onion, whateverit all adds To the overall
flavor, but it keeps itsdistinctness there. And I think

(13:04):
as we've become more culturallydiverse and different, that has
created some of the challengesin terms of our sense of
community overall. And there aresome people who chafe against
that idea the salad versus thethe melting pot and and, and are
even resistant to that, youknow, why do you have to be an

(13:27):
African American? Why can't wejust be Americans? You know, you
hear, you hear those sorts ofthings sort of being said that
that almost like the effort tohighlight the diversity, create
some of the divisions in and ofthemselves. It's almost kind of
like a weird way of thinkingabout it. It's like, Hey, by

(13:49):
talking about race, you create,yeah, you create more racism. Or
by talking about gender issues,you create more sexism. By by
focusing on these things, yougin up, you know, perhaps in
those folks who maybe just wantto kind of think of everybody as
sort of the same, that youyou're highlighting the
differences, which makes thingsa little bit more challenging to

(14:13):
create community.

Yeah, and I think that so, you know, if we
look at that as a project that'sahead of us right right now was
been reading some of the piecesin the inquirer since right
before and since the election.
My friend Ari Jun, who wrote intalking about how you know,
regardless of how this goes,this is before the election,

(14:34):
half the country is going tofeel like you know is going to
be, I would say, deeplyunsatisfied, is probably an
understatement with the resultsof this election. And so how,
how can we be good losers andwinners? Yeah, his, his was
particularly, I think his wasactually, how do we, how do we

(14:55):
care for people whose outcome isnot. Or, you know, the outcome,
right, that we got, or whosedesired outcome is not, but
that's a two way street, right?
How do we handle the dynamic ofwinning and losing? Yeah, and so
this concept of buildingcommunity in a moment like this
seems impossible, but I think isthe only way forward. And what

(15:20):
does that require of us? There'sbeen some things written. My
good friend Eric Ward, has beentalking for a long time now, but
I'm seeing it gain maybe alittle bit more traction. I hope
that, I hope that in thisenvironment, it actually really
holds about this idea of sort ofthe radical, pragmatic center.
And Greg talked about this too.
Representative Greg Landsman,who won his race in the first

(15:42):
district in Ohio, congressionalrace, sat down with you to talk
about this idea of pragmatism.
Right? The foundations ofdemocracy are built on
bipartisanship and pragmatism.
And then he actually, you know,it was actually really kind of
healing to read that piece,because he's he feels like that
hasn't changed. His ability todo that work will be there
tomorrow like it was before theelection, and he's had some luck

(16:05):
with that. And he sees thatthere are pragmatists on the
other side of the aisle that issort of sit close to the center
on the right, as far as he'sconcerned, his orientation, who
are willing and understand thatthe stakes are too high, yes,
and that actually, I think whathe says and in this piece, or
what you say, I guess in thispiece from the interview, is

(16:31):
that, you know, open tobipartisanship, because there's
too much on the line. So, youknow, I think there's going to
be a lot of temptation comingout of this election for people
to double down in theirideological bubbles. Absolutely,

and that's dangerous. You got to resist
that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,I think, I think one of the
things that we've got to ventureinto on all sides is an attempt
to understand better oneanother's point of view, right?
I mean, we're all the sum totalof our experiences, our lives,
lived, our interactions, how bigour cert how big or small our

(17:15):
circle is. And so thatformulates a lot of the ways
that we, that we see the world.
And I think, like, right now,you know, it's always after
these elections, like people dothese autopsies, and they're
trying to understand why votersvoted, voted a certain way,
this, that or the other. Andit's like, you know, well,
shouldn't more effort of that bedone on the front end, right?

(17:36):
Like, it's like, you wouldthink, like, more would be
invested on the front end oftrying to understand where
people are and how they think.
So maybe you can, you can earntheir votes. Like, that's,
that's the whole thing you knowabout, like, politics, cart
chasing the Yeah, horse, right?
Yeah. And, and, I mean, there'snothing wrong with it. I mean, I
think in any instance wherewhether you're successful or

(17:59):
unsuccessful in an endeavor,it's always good to kind of
debrief and say, Hey, what didwe do? Well, what could we have
done better? But I think thereality is, is that if you're
looking at your neighbor andyou're trying to understand why
they voted for Trump, don't doit from a place of judgment,
right? Like sometimes it's arhetorical question when we ask,
Why did somebody vote for Trump?

(18:23):
How could you possibly, yeah,exactly, right, right. Like
you're not really looking forthe answer for that is really
more of a judgment than it is aquestion, how could you vote for
Trump? What we have to do is,or, how could you vote for
Kamala Harris on the other side,I think what we have to do is
really kind of try to endeavorto understand, you know, where,

(18:44):
where people are coming from.
Like, how do you see it? What?
What are your main issues? Youknow, undoubtedly there are
people who had hatefulintentions, who voted, you know,
one way or the other. Andundoubtedly there were people
who that was not in their mind.
They were concerned about theirpocketbook status quo.

Didn't like the status quo. I mean, there's a
lot that Greg has said in hereabout how, you know, the vote
against Kamala Harris was a voteagainst incumbency, and that's,
yeah, you know, people aren'tliking how they're sitting right
now after four years of JoeBiden, yeah. And so they're
voting that way, right? It's notnecessarily an affirmative vote
for Trump, but it's a voteagainst the status quo? Yeah, I
think that's really important.
And I think that, like thetrend, the default right now,

(19:24):
the what's going to beincentivized more so more and
more so is this idea of,particularly in a landscape of
MIS and disinformation, rightwhere there are actors out there
who want to sow chaos anddivision, there's an industry
around it, right, to try to getyou to feel a certain way about

(19:48):
the person who voteddifferently, to manipulate you
into demonizing somebody who mayhave made a different choice at
the polls. And to sort ofmanipulate you into ascribing,
you know, the worst of that sideto everybody who checked that

(20:09):
box, right? And that is that'sthe only way to actually break
that down and prevent that fromhappening, is to build
community, because in community,we find trust, we find
relationships. And like we weretalking about, if somebody tells
me about how all black men are,I'm gonna be like, well, happen
to know a couple of them, yeah,and I don't, I don't believe

(20:32):
you, right? I have arelationship. If somebody asks
you, like, starts talking about,you know, Jewish women in a
certain way, you're gonna gowell before I sort of wholesale
believe that, or take that tobe, you know, the fact I have
some real experience inrelationships with people who
have that identity, and I knowthat that's actually not really

(20:52):
true. So as much as we want toretreat into our sort of
ideological um bubbles and andit feels comfortable to live
there, and kind of soothing tolive there, particularly at a
moment like this, which is whysome people might need to live
there a little longer, yeah, butI think it's so important that
we resist that urge toabsolutely.

I mean, you know the saying A house divided
against itself can't stand. Sothe reality of it is, is that we
can't continue to go on as acountry where, where, where half
of us, you know, where, wherehalf hates the other half or
can't, can't get along with theother half. I mean, I, I just
look at the way that I live mylife every day, like I live my
life every day around people whoI, I'm sure, and even know for a

(21:37):
fact, you know, voted for DonaldTrump and Kamala Harris alike,
and in my daily interactionswith folks like the politics are
not what I'm dealing with whenI'm dealing with them, right?
Like I deal with peoplepleasantly in the grocery store
when I see them, I deal withthem pleasantly at work, this is
what Marie says, Yeah, I dealwith them in the everyday

(22:01):
interactions that I have. Ithink people, by and large, want
to get along with theirneighbor. They want to live in
in peace. I think what theydon't want, I think they don't
want to be put upon primarily bythe government or others, to to
live in ways or be in ways thatthey might not be comfortable

(22:23):
with. And I think that, andthat's not always sort of rooted
in rooted in hate, or it mayjust sometimes be rooted in
preference. You know why justiceis your injustice? Yeah, right,
yeah, yeah, exactly. And so Ithink that, you know, we have to

(22:43):
know where. And I think mostpeople, I think most people, get
this between, you know, wherethey're, where there are social
pleasantries and graces, andwhere people are feeling like
they're sort of being forced togo to places that they're not
quite there yet. I mean, listen,we're talking about people

(23:04):
taking time to deal with theelection results, right? Like
some people just aren't ready totalk about that. Imagine if
somebody was in your face, 24/7saying, Well, you just need to
get over it. You just need toaccept that. You need to move
forward, like, right now, like,and this is the way that it is,
like most people would, mostpeople would chafe at that,
right? And I think, like, thereare certain changes and things

(23:27):
that we're experiencing insociety where we're taking that
exact same, you know,sledgehammer to folks and saying
rigidity of that, yeah, like,like, fall in line with this
right now. And if you don't,you're this, that or the other,
label that, whatever it is thatwe want to ascribe to them. And
instead of saying, instead ofrecognizing like, you know this,

(23:48):
this might be a longer termproject than we think. And how
do we how do we bring folksalong slowly? Because the
reality is, no matter how muchwe wish that it weren't the
case. Change happens slowly.
Yeah, you know, and I thinkwe've been somewhat spoiled in
recent years that you've hadsome major changes that have

(24:12):
happened relatively quicklyafter decades of non movement.
And so I think that it's toughwhen you see change happen
quickly to want to go back tothat, that slower pace, right?
You know, the more liberties andfreedoms people get, the more
they want. They're not justsatisfied, yeah, with a small
piece, once they take Yeah, oncethey've tasted it. But there's

(24:34):
also the very real reality thatthat too much change too quickly
can result in more resistancethan you than you might think.
Now that doesn't mean that wedon't continue to push for
change and try to get as muchchange as we can, as quickly as
possible. But in some cases, youknow, in the battle, you got to
realize that that some somepeople, you got to slow walk

(24:58):
them to get. Them to where,yeah,

yeah. And I think it's also just about being
open to the possibility, thepossibility that it could be
different, right? I think we runthe real risk as a society right
now, regardless of what sidewe're on, falling into the
pitfall of, like, sort of a, youknow, immobile despair, where

(25:22):
it's like, there is no hope. Itcan't be different. And I think
that it's really important toremember that and to be open to
being surprised, right, thecuriosity, and saying, like, you
know what? Wow, that was like areal to being surprised by
someone else and also surprisingyourself, I think, and actually,

(25:43):
you know, as I'm thinking about,like, the stories we're
highlighting this month, theseare, it's one of the, one of the
reasons why stories from thischapter of history are just so
remarkable because the stakeswere so high. And you know, it
really is like the microcosm andsort of the pressure chamber of

(26:04):
humanity in this chapter of hisHolocaust history, where we can
really unpack the way humanbehavior can happen, the way
choices are made, and and seethat actually, in the midst of
This there, even then, therewere surprises. Yeah, right. And
I mean, this is why we havesurvivors of this history, yes,

(26:27):
because there were surprises. SoRob Herman, amazing local guy
whose parents were survivors, orare survivors, rather, and his
his father, Ed, his mother,Halina, both survived the
Holocaust. His children, both oftheir stories of survival are

(26:49):
absolutely remarkable. Ed was ayoung boy in the Warsaw Ghetto
with his mother, who organized aplan to smuggle him out to
freedom. Worked except thepeople who were entrusted to
care for him, abandon him, butthen, in a moment of surprise, a
community of upstandersliterally saved his life, taking

(27:10):
him and other orphans in off thestreets, right? Yeah, that's I
mean, if there's anybody who hasthe right to be hopeless and
full of despair and thinkingthere's no other way for this to
go. Yeah, it would have beenfolks in that situation. And
yet, there were surprises. Therewere moments of upstanding Yeah,

(27:32):
absolutely.

I mean, Rob's mother, Halina, was was hidden
with a Catholic family for solong that she no longer
remembered her Jewishness. Andcan you even imagine that she
was in complete shock when hermother eventually came to
retrieve her and informed herthat she was not Catholic, but
instead Jewish, and would beleaving with her that day. So

(27:52):
let's take a look at part ofRob's story. Yeah,

Trinity Johnson (27:55):
and you touched on this a little bit when he was
smuggled out of the Warsawghetto and makes it to Budapest,
and then he's just abandoned inthis coffee shop. And this is a
really pivotal moment in hisstory, right? He doesn't know
the language, and he's leftalone and he's scared. What
happens? How does he continue onfrom that?

Rob Herman (28:18):
I think for my dad, it's a single biggest moment of
his life. It's so pivotal. It'sso emotional, even now, my dad
is 92 years old, and if youasked him what the most
significant moment of his lifewas in terms of emotion and and
just not knowing where his lifewas headed, that would be it.

(28:39):
What happened was he wasabandoned. His crowded cafe.
Didn't speak the language, butthere were enough people there
that saw and my dad was cryingsoftly in a corner. I mean, but
imagine, you know, at his age,what what he was dealing with,
he was able to hold it together.
Somebody took him to a woman'shouse for a meal. And that, even

(29:02):
though it was far from being aperfect situation, this woman,
Mrs. Schweitzer, in Hungary,gave him a meal and told him he
could come back again for meals.
That, being said, my father washomeless at that point. He slept
in churches, he slept onstreets. He dealt with bed bugs,

(29:25):
you know, wherever he was, andlice and everything else. So it
was far from perfect, but he wasable to use that kindness of
somebody being an upstander andbring him in for an occasional
meal. And eventually, this womanwas able to form an orphanage
under the guise of being aChristian charity, Catholic
charity, and a lot of kids thathad no parents around them were

(29:49):
able to stay in this orphanagefor a period of time, and it
really gave them an opportunityto have a life and not just live
on the street, but you. That'swhere my father was able to find
a path forward. And you know,it's some of these stories are
heartbreaking, little storiesthat will come out for my dad
over time. For example, heshared a bed with another boy

(30:14):
who had seen both of his parentsmurdered, and the kid would wet
the bed every night my dad hadto deal with he said he would
wake up soaking wet. And youfeel for this kid. You think
about that kid who lost hisparents, who was scared and had
really nothing in this world,and again, this orphanage, while
being far from a perfect lifesituation for my dad, it at

(30:37):
least gave him a chance, andthat's that, that's really what
he was able to move forwardfrom.

Trinity Johnson (30:43):
And I understand that a couple people
who helped at that orphanage andorganized it and cared for a lot
of the refugee children wererecognized as Righteous Among
the Nations. Yes, exactly

Rob Herman (30:55):
right. As a matter of fact, my father in the early
1970s went back to Israel andwas able to see Mrs. Schweitzer.
She was named, to your point,not only her, but she was named
among the righteous. And again,think about the incredible
difference she made in thesekids lives, giving them a chance
for survival. I

just think about all of the ways that that story
was supposed to go. And I think,you know, it's just a lesson
about not letting the worst casescenario or what you think is
inevitable, define your real,the realm of possibility.

Yeah, and that's what, that's what Greg Landsman
sort of talked about. He's like,you know, like, right now, if
you are on the losing side ofthis election, and you listen to
some people talk, it's almost asif democracy has already fallen,
right? Like it's like, it's adone deal. It's said and done.
America as we know it is, is nolonger going to exist. And

(32:00):
there's this, there's this senseof of hyper despair at this
point, and nothing's evenhappened. Trump hasn't even
taken the, you know, the oath ofoffice, both of us office at
this point yet, and and folkshave already kind of surrendered
to the to the worst cases. Imean, if you're someone who
believes that the moral arc ofjustice, or the moral arc of the

(32:22):
universe bends towards justiceis long. Yeah, right, exactly.
You recognize that we're notexempt nor immune from having to
endure darkness or endure darktimes where where things might
appear bleak. But I think, asCongressman Landsman said, you

(32:43):
know, throwing up your hands andsaying this is awful only makes
the awful that much more likely,right? It's, it's, it's staying
in the fight. It's persevering.
It's, it's leaving yourself opento the possibilities and options
and upstanders, people who youmight not think or expect can
stand up in a moment. We dothat. You know, I've heard so
many people talk about, whenLandsman talks about these

(33:05):
pragmatic people on the right,there's, oh, they're just afraid
of Trump. They're just going towind up going along with
whatever he says. Like, that'ssort of the sort of the cynical
view of that, but it leaves noroom for the possibility that
they're that they're up, yeah,that there, there are up
standards, that there are peoplewho are going to say, You know
what, I'm not going to let thisgo too far. I'm not going to let
people get hurt. I'm not goingto let things go over the top.

(33:27):
And, you know, again, I mean, Ithink Greg was very sober that,
like, on the other hand, itcould very well turn out that
that could, in fact, be thecase. But the reality is, is
that there are options, andit's, it's the decisions and the
choices that each of us make asto whether or not we're going to
make, you know, decisions thatthat lead to light or decisions

(33:52):
that lead to darkness. So Ithink you know, this is a
perfect example of a story ofwhere, where it could have
looked like the end of thestory. As you said, were already
written. But as you can see,there were, there were many
options there now. Were they allperfect options, like I was
thinking about, as he wastalking about this notion of,
here he is being rescued in thisin this orphanage, right yet,

(34:15):
and still he's in community withpeople who are in this
orphanage, who are who aretraumatized, yeah, as well,
maybe in a different way than hehe was traumatized, and his dad
was traumatized, but certainlytraumatized nonetheless. And
here you have to share spacewith somebody who's traumatized,

(34:36):
who's wetting the bed, but alsosoaking you in the process. So
it's like, you're you're in thiscommunity that's basically
there's

a collective sort of like ripple effect of
trauma Absolutely, swallowingeveryone

absolutely so it's like sometimes, for lack of
a better metaphor, when it feelslike somebody in your. Community
is kind of, for lack of a betterterm, urinating on you. You
know, it certainly doesn't feelgood, but, but you recognize
that you are in community withpeople who are also dealing with
with issues and trauma thatmight be very different from

(35:15):
your own, and that may be partof the reason why you're, yeah,
you know, being affected bytheir their issues as well.
Yeah. So I think we got to bemindful of that, you know, that
we don't, we don't always knoweverybody's story, you know. And
while a vote for Trump mightfeel like somebody's wetting the
bed on you, there's a storybehind why. You know, somebody

(35:39):
made

this well, and that's that's curiosity, and
that's really like, I think, oneof the biggest strengths that
this next upstander story thatwe wanted to highlight today
brings to the to theconversation. Yeah,

Beth Silvers and Sarah Stewart Holland of the pan
su politics podcast, they'vebeen discussing politics for
almost a decade, and alwaysapproach the subject with the
maximum amount of grace andnuance possible. We don't, we
don't ever talk about that. No,

no, you and me, yeah, we're just ideologues who
are stuck over here on eitherside of the table, shouting at
each other past each other. SoBeth and Sarah are amazing. They
were given the Irwin Hurleyaward for perspective. I would
argue, they have a strong senseof curiosity. Talked about this
too at this year's upstanderawards. We've mentioned them in
the previous episodes. ErwinHurley was a US Army captain

(36:28):
from Northern Kentucky who wasassigned to lead a unit of black
enlisted men as World War Twoplayed out in Europe, including
the liberation of Dachau, Hurleyfelt great empathy for the men
in his unit as they facedintense discrimination at home,
and this was reflected in hisletters home to his wife. He's,
you know, the idea the characterstrength of perspective that,
like Erwin, was sort of a manwho was straddling two worlds,

(36:51):
and he he had this. This gavehim the gift, I think, of
perspective, which, which reallysort of informed, you know, how
he thought about the world andhis values. And Beth and Sarah,
you know, coming from differentideological standpoints,
engaging with a sense ofcuriosity with each other, like,
why does she feel that way?
Yeah, it was just awesome to seeit modeled and to listen to it

(37:15):
modeled. If you haven't listenedto pasta Pantsu podcast, you
should. But yeah, let's, let'slisten to a little bit of my
interview with Beth and Sarah.
Now, when we

Beth Silvers (37:25):
started the show, I was a registered Republican,
Sarah was a registered Democrat.
I always held that a little bitmore loosely than than Sarah
did. You know Sarah is verycommitted to the party and has
run for office and been anelected official. I'm more of a
news junkie, like I care moreabout the news than the
political aspect of it. So we Iwas more conservative, she was

(37:49):
more liberal, and we toldpeople, as a shortcut, that's
what we're doing. Right womanfrom the right woman from the
left. I pretty quickly startedto get emails from people on the
right explaining to me that Iwas not a good representative of
the right for them, and theright changed pretty
dramatically. We started theshow in November of 2015 which
became an earthquake for theright and what the Republican

(38:13):
Party represented. So over time,I changed my registration to
Democrat. I changed it back toRepublican so I could vote in
local elections. I always tellpeople, I hope that my party
identification is the leastinteresting thing about me.
Yeah, love that. I think thatthere are issues on which Sarah
is much more progressive than Iam. There are some issues where
I'm more progressive than sheis. I think about things like

(38:35):
prison reform and bail andincarceration in general. So
we're both fluid, and I hopegetting more fluid and more
difficult to characterize as weget older, because we spend so
much time thinking and learningabout these issues. Yeah, and

probably, like you said, it's dynamic, because
the entire nature of what you'redoing is about, it's in, it's
like, iterative, right? So it,it's like, the fact that you're
in this relationship and you'rein conversation with each other
and with your audience is aliving, breathing thing, right?
And, and the fact that you're upfor that, right? That that's the

(39:15):
whole premise of it, is that toengage in that kind of
transform, transformativeconversation, you have to be, I
think you have to be Have youhave to have the humility to
know that, like, maybe I'm notseeing the full picture, maybe
there's something I'm missing,maybe someone else has something
valuable to add to thisconversation. There's, like, a
healthy level of humility andcuriosity that comes with that.

(39:39):
And so yeah, I mean, shame on mefor even asking that question.
Because the reality is, thewhole thing is dynamic. That's
the point. Well, I

Sarah Stewart Holland (39:46):
think it's in part because of the
medium too. You can't skim apodcast and just find the things
you want to be mad about. Youcould try, but you could try,
but it would be a fool's errand.
I mean. Yeah, it's also a veryintimate medium. People spend
hours a week with us, in theirears, they feel like they're in
conversation with us. We hearall the time. I know we're not

(40:07):
friends, but I feel like we are,and I would say we are friends.
We have a type of relationshipwith our listeners, even the
ones we've never met or talkedto. You know a lot about me, and
I know a lot about them. Youknow, even if I don't know their
individual lives in detail, andI think that's part of what's
been so rewarding and hasallowed that curiosity and that
vulnerability is because themedium itself rewards that. It's

(40:30):
not a comment thread the theworst moments of interaction,
often they're not even membersof our audience. They're just
people who roll into ourInstagram or our Facebook feed
and find something to be madabout, and pretty quickly, our
listeners will be like, Are younew here? Do you actually listen
to podcasts? Like, what are youtalking about? Because we so
rarely get that with people wholisten to the podcast regularly.
That's a that's a pretty rareoccurrence, because it is

(40:53):
collaborative in a way. Youknow, they work on us. We work
on them. You know, some of thebest comments we get is when
people say, look, I was mad thefirst time listen, but then I
listened against or like, youknow, we get a lot of what you
are hard pressed to find inmodern politics, which is the
benefit of the doubt. Peopleassume goodwill with us. They
they've spent a lot of hourswith us, and they even if we say

(41:15):
something that they think iswrong or they strongly disagree
with, they built up a lot ofcapital with us along the way so
that they don't assume the worstfrom something we've said,
because that's what we do witheach other online. We assume the
worst. We don't give goodwill.
We don't assume good motives orgood intent. It's the opposite.

(41:36):
And so that's what's been sorewarding about this work, is
because the way the mediumworks, in the way we've built
our audience, in the way we arein communication constantly with
our audience has allowed thatflow of goodwill and
communication that really freesus to be humble and curious and
vulnerable. Yeah,

Beth Silvers (41:55):
and Jackie, you said, you know, maybe, maybe I'm
missing something. What I'velearned doing this for nine
years now is I'm always missingsomething. I'm for sure, missing
something every conversation wehave, we sometimes will
articulate on the podcast like,Hey, this is just one
conversation. It's a huge issue.
It can't contain everything. I'mcertain that you'll tell me what
I've missed, and they and andthe audience does. I realized

(42:17):
early on that this was going tobe the most fascinating work of
my life. When we had aconversation about 911 and we
were just talking about how thebuildings collapsed, we wanted
to do a series for people whoare quite a bit younger than us
and don't know much about 911right and and after we released
the episode about the buildingscollapsing, we got an email from
like a thermonuclear engineerwho had really studied that

(42:41):
issue and wanted to tell us moreabout the physics of it. And I
thought, I want to do this. Iwant to do this forever. I love
that. Everything we talk about,we hear from someone who knows
it better than we do. And so Ijust now start with like, what,
what am I missing? I'm sure thatI am, and it's great. I feel
like, if, if learning in publicis my job. That's the best job
in the world. And if we couldall bring more of that

(43:04):
orientation to politics. Likeevery one of these questions is
hard, and I am definitelymissing something, right? It
just it really breaks you downand opens you up.

What I love about Beth and Sarah is, you
want to talk about an example ofbuilding community. Yeah,
they've created probably one ofthe rarest community spaces and
the most necessary communityspaces. And I would actually
argue, Kevin, that, if I don'tsay so myself, your role in your
work about create like there isa certain community that you are

(43:39):
curating as part of, you know,lifting up different opinions
and sort of engaging with themin conversation that's and we
all in the city benefit frombeing part of that conversation
and that community. So I think,I just think that there are

(43:59):
fewer and fewer spaces, andthere will be fewer, I think,
unless we are really intentionalthose spaces where we can
actually sit there in a spiritof curiosity and humility and do
the real work of buildingcommunity, not the Bengals one
this weekend. Where did youcelebrate? Where did I celebrate

(44:20):
work, but the real work ofleaning in with curiosity, sure
and humility, to understand andlisten and act and that that's
an act of humanizing that'sactually like what it requires.
Yeah, it's a, it's a theshortcuts are all

dehumanizing, yeah, but, but I think we also
have to recognize, and itabsolutely everything you said
is absolutely worth it. But Ithink we also have to recognize,
what a heavy lift that that ohmy gosh, because to go deep, to
sit and listen when you've gotyour own problems, when life is
so heavy for you all. Ready whenthe stakes are getting high and

(45:02):
when you do have a spare moment,do I really want to spend that
time, you know, digging deep andengaging in these, in these
types of conversations? Or do Iwant to sit home with a beer
and, you know, just kind ofscroll on scroll on

Facebook? Yeah, feel validated in my own Sure.
Yeah.

So I think, I think, you know, we, we cannot
underestimate, you know thatwhat we're talking about here is
a heavy lift for some people,yeah, to, you know, to get to
that point, but it, but it is anecessary and worthy lift. You
know, if we're, if we're willingto engage in it, you know, my
philosophy has always been, youknow, this belief that what I

(45:40):
know is vastly outstripped bywhat I don't know. Right it? It
starts with the premise that nomatter how smart I think I am,
like, there's a whole lot that Idon't know. In fact, there's way
more that I don't know than I doknow. And I kind of feel like
I'm a reasonably intelligentperson, I would agree with that,
but, but, yeah, but there's,I'll take that, but that's the

(46:05):
humility that you're talkingabout. Is that, you know, it
leaves space that no matter howsure I think I might be of
something, there's a possibilitythat there's a perspective, a
way of looking at things, someinformation that I have not
considered and hasn't come intomy into my consciousness yet,
and that's one of the greatthings about the seed as seed I
sit in at the inquiry. I alwayssay that not that I feel like

(46:27):
I'm any better than anybodyelse, but I do feel like because
I read and hear and listen andinteract with so many different
types of people from around thecity, many people who don't
think like me at all, but I kindof because it's my job to listen
to them. I get to listen tothem. It gives me a perspective

(46:49):
that oftentimes will back medown, even when I feel like I
may still strongly disagree withsomebody. But I can at least say
I can understand how you gotthere right now. Let me, let me,
kind of help you understand whatyou don't know about why I am,
where I am, and how I see itdifferently. And at the end of
that conversation, they may nothave moved an inch, but at least

(47:12):
they can say, yep, you know.
Well, now at least I canunderstand where, where Kevin is
coming from. I don't agree withit. You know, I still have the
way that I see the world. Ithink this is the right solution
to the problem, yeah, but youhave perspective now, and I
think that that's the most thatthat we can expect from anybody
is to try to developperspective. It's not

(47:32):
necessarily, not necessarilythat we agree, but we got to try
to understand, yeah,

I mean, and I think that the challenge, the
real because you're right. Weshould be careful not to, like,
oversimplify this, like, thisis, this will be, this is the
American project before all ofus, and it is the defining
project of our time, I think, totry and figure out how to do
this and do it better. Becausewhen you look at the systems and

(48:02):
the frameworks, the incentivesare all against the work of
doing that. Absolutely,incentives of how it feels to
actually hold that maybe you'renot 100% right. You get punished
for

that. I mean, think about what Beth said in
the I think it was Beth thatsaid, yeah, in the piece, she
said, you know, the greatestthing about her job is learning
in public, and politics doesn'tallow for you to learn in
public. You know, it doesn't,because what people expect are
answers. They expect solutionsto, sometimes simple solutions

(48:34):
to very complex problems, andthey expect you to deliver on it
within a term. You know, asPresident, you got four years.
You got four years to deliver,maybe two depending on what the
makeup of the houses of Congresslook like. You know, does
anybody realistically think thatthese decades, centuries old
problems that we've beendiscussing can literally be

(48:56):
solved by one person? And youknow, two to four years? No way,
but, but because people arestruggling and they don't want
to struggle, or they want tosolve issues quicker, sooner
rather than later, it forces usinto this political environment
where saying, I don't know,

caution, ability, yeah, associated and
social and sort of social costsassociated with that, right? Or
like, cost within the system,yeah, I think, I think, but, you
know, I was talking to somebody,and then we're gonna wrap, I
promise guys, we're not going todrag on too much longer. I was
talking with somebody about thisconcept of, like, you know,

(49:41):
you've heard the concept ofdesign thinking where you, like,
Take yourself completely out ofthe context and say, How are in
other places, people solvingfor, like, similar kinds of
problems. And I, you know, whatwe're basically challenged with
as a society is, in some ways,something that doesn't. Feel at
all good, that is against that,that sense of like what you

(50:05):
know, gratification or what youknow kind of continues to
incentivize you. But it'sessential, and it's actually
critical for health, in the longrun, for the health of our
society, right for the healthand security of people who live
in a democracy. And so I've, I'mthinking about it in, like, a

(50:27):
design thinking way of, like,what other industries have had
to figure out how to get peopleto behave in a way that is good
for them but doesn't necessarilyprovide the immediate
gratification that doesn't feelgood in the moment, right? So,
like exercise, right? HealthFood, right? Always, rather a
bag of Skittles than, like, anut butter sandwich. But is you

(50:50):
that even healthy? That's howbad I am at that.

Anyway, you're asking the wrong guy.

I what? Okay, right? So I don't know, some
wild grain instead, I don't knowbut, but you know, how have
other industries figured out howto incentivize things, or how to
help get people to intentionallychoose something that is not the
default? It's not the immediate,that's not what feels good,

(51:16):
that's not what's reinforced inyour echo chambers. That's not,
you know, what people are gonnasort of be drawn to as a result
of the media, disinformation,you know, ecosystem that we're
in. And so I just think that,like, we just have to remember
that the best things in lifesometimes, you know, the things
that are really worth it, worthour effort, don't feel great in

(51:37):
the moment. They're hard,

yeah, but most people take, and I'm a victim of
this, since we're talking aboutexercise, most people take the
easy way out, rather, yeah,rather than doing sit ups, you'd
rather buy the contraptionthat'll jiggle your abs for for
40 minutes, and you'll pay $150for that, rather than, you know,
rather than go into the gym andput put it, put in the hard work
to do that. And I think, youknow, we've got to get over

(52:02):
that. We've got to get over theeasy way out the, you know,
coming up with the quick fixes.
Because I think that's one ofthe the downfalls of our
society. The decadence of oursociety is that, is that we get
too, too comfortable, and wewant the easy road, and we don't
want to recognize thateverything we want is just on
the other side of hard, as mycousin always likes to, likes to

(52:23):
say the last thing, yeah, I'lladd, because I know we got to
get out of here is, you know, wealso got to have this serious
conversation about this notionof what our shared values are,
You know, like I, I I alwayshear, you know, former President
Obama talks talk about this, andothers talk about our shared

(52:45):
values as Americans. Whatexactly are those? You know,
because we move forward likewith this assumption that we all
have shared values. But I thinkif there's one thing that this
election has shown is clearly wedon't, because that's the
biggest hurdle that you'retrying to get over right now, if
you're somebody who's not, ifyou're not a Trump guy, he

(53:07):
violates some, some seriousvalues that, that you know that
I have, that some other peoplehave, that you look at and you
you Say, you have to askyourself, like, Well, my my
neighbor can't have those samevalues. Or if they do, those
values clearly are not apriority over other values, but

(53:29):
these are high priority valuesfor me. So when we talk about,
you know, what are our sharedvalues as a nation, or as we
talk about building communitylike that's something we gotta

but that what you just said is about that is
the exercise of actually tryingto define what we're for and not
what we're against, right? And Iactually think, call me a
complete naive, you know, anaive person in this moment, but
I think that the exercise oftalking about what we don't like

(54:04):
is much easier than sittingtogether to talk about what we
do want, what does it look like?
And that back to where westarted, is this idea of Beloved
Community. It's why we haven'tachieved it yet, because it's a
hard thing. It's a hard thing tofight for, it's a hard thing to
achieve. It's a hard thing tocollectively aspire to. And I
think that we, this election hasshown us that there were a lot

(54:27):
of people who went out and votedagainst, yeah, yeah. Like, what
are we what are we movingtogether for? Yeah, as as a, you
know, as an organization, atHHC, at other organizations
like, we have these, this workof actually articulating our
core values we don't articulate.
Here's the list of things thatwe're against, right? It's like,

(54:49):
what are we striving for? And Ithink that actually, if we
engage in sort of a strategicplan as a nation to figure out
what our core values are, I. Um,that we might have more
similarity in that exercise thanin any exercise around what we
don't want.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I agree with that
100% you know, and too many ofour elections, particularly of
late, have been about votingagainst something, yes, or
someone, versus voting forsomeone, or a direction, you
know, that that we want to go,and I think we've got to figure

(55:30):
out, you know, again and again,it's the nature of our politics.
You know, the thevillainization, the
dehumanization of of one'sopponent. It's sort of like a
foundation of politicalcampaigning these days that it's
more about, how can I make myopponent look bad versus make
myself look good? Like it'sbecome this unpopularity

(55:51):
contest, who's more unpopular,not, not who's who's more of
somebody that I would want to,you know, want to cast my ballot
for because I think they're agood, decent person who's going
to take us in the in the rightdirection, yeah.

I mean, the the Nazis people are national
community, right back to thevolksgemeinschaft that we were
talking with that was acommunity defined by who doesn't
belong,

yes, yeah, and that's... So what is it, the
conversation that we're having,community

of who does, who right? What does it look like?
What is the affirmative vision,right, for how we move forward
together? Yeah. And I

think that's what everybody wants. I think
everybody wants to start to havea more affirmative conversation
about America. Yeah, you know,it's, it's, it's so much about,
about what America is not andhere's the piece that maybe I'll
leave us on a positive note hereabout community in terms of
giving us as a nation somecredit overall, right when we

(56:51):
think about how sharp ourdifferences are politically and
everything like that. You know,outside of our brush with this
on January 6, we are mostly asociety that, despite our
differences, manages to live anddeal with our politics, you
know, in healthy ways that don'tinvolve people killing and

(57:14):
shooting and bombing oneanother. And so I think that
let's give ourselves some degreeof credit in that, because as
bad as we think it is, couldalways this type of division
wouldn't would result insomething much worse than a lot
of other places in the world.
And so to our credit, in termsof what we've constructed and
even who we are, no matter howbad we might feel our neighbor

(57:37):
is, we are at least not there,not yet, anyway, right? And,
and, let's, let's take some somesolace and, and some pride in
that. Fact, yep, you

want to give the upstander shout out. Yeah, I

do. I want to. I want to give an upstander shout
out to to a friend of mine and aformer journal, or a, well, she
is a journalist, a syndicatedcolumnist, and used to do my
work with the Louisville CourierJournal, until very recently,
she was the opinion editorthere. Her name is Bonnie Jean
Feldkamp, and Bonnie wrote apiece after the election that

(58:16):
was titled, you know, be thelight that that Trump's hate is
forced to face, and it's reallyall about speaking to folks who
did not support, you know, Trumpin the election, and you know,
acknowledging their theirfeelings of despair and hurt in

(58:37):
this moment, and even somewhattalking about some of her fears
in terms of worrying about, youknow, groups that she cares
about, LGBTQ community, AfricanAmericans, others who are
vulnerable and who are who arefighting for rights, but, but
then she kind of ends the piece,and in sort of the same way that
we talk here on the rippleeffect is, is, what can I do,

(58:59):
You know? And there's a linewhere she talks about not
allowing the election results orour feelings to harden our heart
in this situation. You know,this notion of of keeping your
heart open, keeping your mindopen to the possibilities, and
looking at what light you canbring to the situation, right?
And that's what this is callingfor in this time, you know,

(59:22):
going out volunteering, youknow, helping a person, doing
one kind act at a time, notbecoming overwhelmed with the
the state of things, so much soto the point where, where it
paralyzes you or mobilizes you,but, but asking yourself on a
daily basis, you know, what isthat little bit of light, which,
you know, was a theme of one ofour recent, recent podcasts,

(59:47):
being that light that we canbring into into the situation.
So I appreciate her and hertaking time to write this piece
in the wake of the election,where, where everything else is
is. Of focused in on the thethis is the end of the end of
the world type scenario. She waschallenging all of us to channel

(01:00:09):
that, that inner, inner light.
And if we're concerned abouthate taking over, then it's even
more incumbent upon us. Yeah.

Jackie Congedo (01:00:17):
Response has to be love. Has to be kindness,
because darkness doesn't drownout darkness, only light can do
that. Right? Absolutely. DrKing, that's right, yeah. So we,
you know, and, and to bring itback to where we started, we
understand if you're just notthere, yeah, so, but it would be
good to hear if you'relistening. How are you, are you?

(01:00:37):
Are you even thinking aboutbuilding community? If so, how
are you thinking about doing it?
What's maybe one thing, maybenot today, maybe not this week,
maybe not next week, but onething in the next little while
that you can do to build a senseof community, to reach out with
some measure of curiosity orhumility, depending on what side
of this you're on. And how canwe all be part of, you know,

(01:00:59):
bringing more light to asituation and meeting meeting
this sort of darkness of, youknow, division and dehumanizing
and othering with the light ofhumanizing. I think it's is the
question. So, yeah, thanks forjoining us. We'll be back next
time. Let us know what youthink. Yeah,

Kevin Aldridge (01:01:24):
we're building a sense of community here as well.
We are building we're buildingour own community here, and so
we want you to continue to be apart of that, that community
where everyone is welcome.
Thanks

Jackie Congedo (01:01:36):
for joining us.
Let us know your thoughts onthis episode. Our email is in
the show notes. You can listenanytime on Spotify, Apple
podcasts or visit Holocaust andhumanity.org/podcast you can
also connect with us onInstagram and
Tiktok@holocaustandhumanity andX Facebook @cincyhhc. The
Upstander Ripple Effect is aproduction of the Nancy & David
Wolf Holocaust & HumanityCenter. The Center's mission is

(01:01:58):
to ensure that the lessons ofthe Holocaust inspire action
today. This series is part ofthe Cynthia & Harold Guttman
Family Center for Storytelling.
Visit us in person at historicunion terminal in Cincinnati,
Ohio, or onlineanytime@holocaustinhumanity.org
managing producer is AnneThompson. Consulting producer is

(01:02:19):
Joyce Kamen. Technical Produceris Robert Mills, and Technical
Director is Josh Emerson. Theopening sequence is by Ken
Furman. Select music is by KickLee. This is recorded at
Technical Consulting Partnerstudios in Cincinnati, Ohio.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 7: "Building Community" featuring Rob Herman, Beth Silvers and Sarah Stewart Holland

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Episode 7: "Building Community" featuring Rob Herman, Beth Silvers and Sarah Stewart Holland

On Purpose with Jay Shetty