December 20, 2023 • 31 mins
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In our latest episode, we talk with Kathy Gleason from “As I Live and Grieve” about the relationship between grief and creativity. We explore how historical periods, from the Renaissance to the Blues Era, have shown that sorrow can inspire great art. Kathy shares her own stories from childhood, explaining how these early encounters with grief shaped her later work.
We discuss the idea of grief as a transformative journey, where personal loss leads to a deeper understanding and purpose. I reflect on how my own experiences of loss influenced my career, even amidst the complexities surrounding end-of-life decisions. We also look at how unexpected connections can bring light during our darkest times, offering healing in surprising ways. To conclude, I extend an invitation to our monthly Soulful Sorrows circles, designed to provide comfort and insight to those navigating the spiritual aspects of grief. Join us for this meaningful conversation about the interplay of creativity and the universal experience of sorrow.
Show introduction: One Drum: Stories and Ceremonies for a Planet by Richard Wagamese
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At Soulful Energy Medicine, I help you release energetic blocks, clear emotional pain, and reconnect with your true self. You’ll find a safe, grounded space for soul-level transformation through virtual healing sessions.
✨ Book your free discovery call: Soulful Energy Medicine
Foundation for Shamanic Studies: Explore here
“The Way of the Shaman” book by Michael Harner
Society for Shamanic Practice: Explore here
Connect
John@urbangriefshamans.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Moir (00:36):
Welcome to the Urban Grief.
Kathy Gleason (03:50):
Me too.
I was looking forward to thisever since you invited me.
John Moir (03:54):
I'm glad to hear this .
You've been a mentor ever sincePatricia and I were guests on
your show as I live in grief andyou've been encouraging us to
take a leap into podcasting.
Kathy Gleason (04:06):
I just think you have a lot of not just
experience but information aswell from a different
perspective.
That I think really to meanyway it makes so much sense
and kind of fills in some ofthose gaps from the theological
(04:26):
background.
I had as a child growing up inthe Episcopal Church, All those
questions I have wondering about.
You know, gosh, what aboutspirits and everything like that
?
How does that all fit in?
But many of the things that youand Patricia also said just
kind of filled in those gaps forme and I think, well, it likely
will for others as well.
(04:47):
And there's there are a lot ofpodcasts out there that deal
with grief and death and eventheology and everything, but I
have not seen any with yourperspective of the shamanism.
I have not seen that.
So I think it will be a wellreceived podcast.
John Moir (05:05):
Thank you.
So in this episode we want totalk about grief and creativity.
You heard when I was growing upthat our best works of art and
literature take place duringtimes of upheaval, so I was
wondering if you could share thebeginning of your story with us
.
Kathy Gleason (05:23):
The beginning of my story, I guess, would be that
I was pretty much brought up ina Norman Rockwell type family.
The big difference and this wasin the 50s, when I was a very
young child was that in myfamily both my parents worked.
My mother happened to be theprincipal secretary at the
(05:45):
elementary school right acrossthe street from our house.
So I grew up with both parentsworking and wound up.
Since there were no daycarecenters like that, most times I
wound up across the street atschool with my mother.
Either attending an extra class, like kindergarten, was a half
day, I went for a full day justbecause it was free, and then
(06:10):
after school, as I grew up andeverything, I would be in my
mother's office and I would helpher, and so that was kind of my
background.
But in our family my parentswere also extremely protective,
and one of the things theyprotected me from, of course,
were any of the negativeemotions or experiences that we
(06:32):
might come across.
I remember when each of mygrandparents died this would be
my mother's parents.
They died within a month ofeach other and I have vague
recollections of curiositiesabout what had happened and
wanting to go to the funeralhome, but my parents said no, no
(06:52):
, you stay home.
A funeral home is not a placefor children.
So I did, and it wasn't until Iwas an adult that I even
ventured near a funeral home,and oddly enough, that was on
Halloween, when I was on aUNICEF drive and we happened to
take our little coin banks andgo up to the door of a funeral
(07:16):
home because the lights were on.
That was the closest I got to afuneral home up to that point,
and as I look back at that now,I think that has to account
somewhat for the fear and I meanliteral fear I had of the word
death as well as the concept, sothat became a huge obstacle as
(07:39):
I grew, to try to cross thatbarrier.
It was not easy, and in truth,I never really became
comfortable even saying the worddeath until I was a grown,
married woman and my mother died, even to the death of my father
(08:01):
and infant son, and then mymother.
Finally.
After that, I finally startedto become comfortable with that
concept.
It's quite common in ourculture, though, isn't it, to
not?
John Moir (08:14):
speak of grief or death and nobody wants to die
and in our culture we certainlywant to be beautiful and young
forever, and even deep emotions.
I grew up in a time when mendidn't cry.
I can kind of remember mymother, while I was in my
wedding, wanted to tell mystepdad I loved him and to thank
him for being there for me.
I love him.
I was starting to get emotionaland I remember my mom looking
(08:36):
at me just shaking her head inthe no gesture to cry.
So we get a lot of our priming,I think, when we're young.
Kathy Gleason (08:42):
We do and you know, following in the footsteps
of my parents with my own twodaughters as a single mom, I
remember having to attend afuneral and Stephanie said can I
come along?
And I said, no, no, you don'tneed to go, you stay home.
She even remarked in one of ourpodcast episodes that it wasn't
(09:02):
until she was almost 20 thatshe was going to go to calling
hours at a funeral home and shehad no idea what to expect.
She was terrified to go becauseshe didn't know what she would
see or how she should act oranything.
And then I realized that I haddone the same thing my parents
had, by protecting her.
(09:24):
Stephanie learned and when myhusband Tom died, she of course,
the entire time he was ill, hadbeen talking to her two boys,
and both boys were at callinghours.
They were at the funeral home.
And even the youngest, who atthe time was in sixth grade, he
did a presentation that wastheir annual project before
(09:47):
graduating elementary school.
He did his annual project onAgent Orange and how it impacted
Tom's death and stood up there,tears streaming down his face,
words stuck in his throat, buthe stood up there in front of
parents and teachers, facultyadministration and talked it out
(10:09):
and I was just.
I was awestruck.
John Moir (10:13):
You must have been very proud.
R you said you never understoodwhat grief was about.
Kathy Gleason (10:20):
I didn't.
I don't think I even spoke theword.
For years and years I had noneed of it because it didn't
happen, or at least I didn'tattribute it as happening.
And again, a late adultdiscovery is that I don't
believe that I ever grieved thedeath of my father or my infant
(10:43):
son.
I didn't know, that's what Iwas feeling, and at that time
you just sucked it up and moved,you know, and three days later,
back to work and just a normalday.
They were just gone period.
John Moir (10:58):
Yeah, so do you remember when it was that you
felt that you hit that point inyour life where your grief
became bottomless whileconsuming?
Kathy Gleason (11:11):
I do.
Actually, it wasn't until aftermy husband, tom, died and we
had known for eight months thatthe cancer that he had was not
curable and I watched himdecline and by that time I had
been working in hospice a littlebit, so I was aware of some of
(11:32):
the signs when a person isactively dying the modeling of
the skin and the legs andeverything, and how it will kind
of creep up the body, and I wasseeing all those signs in Tom.
And then I went in, of course,the day that I knew he was going
to die that day because he hadthat gurgling breathing, that
kind of death rattle they callit, and I was ready for it.
(11:57):
But it didn't impact me, itwasn't really, for I want to say
a couple weeks after we had thecelebration of his life and I
was at home and realized thatnot only had I Not had a shower
in days and not changed myclothes, but I also had not left
(12:19):
the house, that even to Let thedogs out I would open the door,
hook their chain on them andlet them out.
I hadn't even gone out on thedeck of my house.
And it hit me then and I thoughtif I don't do something, I'm
going to live the rest of mylife like this and I don't want
(12:41):
to live like this forever.
And at that point I I did whatI always turned to, and that was
music and books.
And I put music on.
There was probably a littlesomber, but at the time it was
what I needed and it releasedsome emotions.
(13:02):
And I sobbed and sobbed forhours and Then I grabbed a book
that a friend of mine had sentme and started reading it.
It was poetry, wasn'tapplicable to grief at all, but
I just got lost in the words.
And then that afternoon I gotup and I took a shower and put
on clean clothes, went to thegrocery store and Really, just
(13:23):
from that point on, startedmaking changes.
John Moir (13:25):
Mm-hmm.
Does it ever come back and biteyou?
Kathy Gleason (13:29):
Yeah, sometimes, yeah, usually on the the
anniversary of his death.
I don't remember theanniversary of my mother's death
.
I know approximately, but Idon't know the day or the year.
At this point I Do for my son,but not for my father, but for
(13:52):
some reason Tom's day of deathis easier to remember than his
birthday.
Hmm and and I don't know whythat is, but on those days
sometimes it will come back,sometimes at a parade, because
he was retired US Army andBlonged to the Vietnam vets of
(14:13):
America.
They usually march in parades,so sometimes when I see them
I'll start to get veryteary-eyed and very emotional
Because I know that Tom was justso loyal to them.
But yeah, there are times.
It's never as bad, though thatwas the worst, that was the
bottom for me.
John Moir (14:33):
Kathy, I can only begin to imagine that the pain,
possibly fear and isolation thatyou're facing at this time.
It reminds me of what FrancisWeller, the author of the Wild
Edge of sorrow Then I knowyou've read his book describes
as a rough initiation.
This isn't a journey wewillingly embark upon, is it?
It's more like we're trying tojust hold on tightly to what we
(14:55):
cherish most.
In our grieving we do change.
It's as if we lose part of ouridentity and find ourselves
pulling away from others.
And from my shamanicperspective, grieving is deeply
spiritual work.
It's challenging, raw, and itcan feel incredibly lonely, but
the ache in our hearts.
There's also a profoundconnection to our soul, and it
(15:19):
marks the start of atransformative journey, one that
might even lead us to our firststeps in creative expression.
As, wondering, does thisresonate with you?
Kathy Gleason (15:28):
I think it is especially looking back at the
time.
I don't think I was aware ofthat concept, but looking back I
remember talking to my daughteron the phone and saying I'm
tired, I'm exhausted.
I feel like I'm redefiningmyself.
I'm no longer the person I wasbefore, and During the eight
(15:49):
months when I was taking care ofTom I didn't really realize how
much of my life and how much ofme I had given up gladly to
help him.
But I Was just gone.
I, you know, had nothing, noactivities, none of the
friendships or relationships,except for work and that was in
(16:12):
the hospice industry.
But I said I'm redefining myself.
I didn't look at it as beingcreative.
For some reason, to me griefWas an end.
It was an end.
That was like the stoppingpoint everybody off the bus.
This is the end of the road.
I Don't know why, but as Istarted to work through some
(16:36):
things and started to read moreand Get out more and do more
things, I Realized it certainlyisn't the end and my grief for
me almost became a catalyst yeah, so, yeah.
So in that way and you knowI've always been kind of
creative I am today.
(16:57):
I am somebody I have never beenbefore.
I Used to be an introvert.
I'm not necessarily anintrovert.
Sometimes it takes a little bitof a nudge to get me going, but
it just.
You know, there's so much that Ifeel has to be done and I want
to be a part of doing it andfinding creative ways to do it.
(17:19):
And you know, I think I'mTrying to stay more open to the
signs along the road and, youknow, say oh yeah, all right,
I'll go that way and see whathappens.
John Moir (17:30):
Mm-hmm.
I, Kathie, I think you'll findthis interesting.
Coming from a shamanicviewpoint, the initial stages of
intense grief for us is like adismemberment.
This is a time when everythingfeels scattered and
disorientated, and giving as agrieving deeply, I should say
can change you profoundly.
In shamanic dismemberment,charities, it's like being
(17:52):
broken down completely right toyour core, to your very essence,
and grief is very much likethis, as we both can agree on.
This process can be experiencedin different ways.
Sometimes it's enveloped in asense of love and care, but at
other times, I tell you, it canbe quite scary, just like grief,
when we just don't know wherethe bottom is.
(18:13):
The second part of this journeyis crucial, and this is when
the spirit starts to rememberyou, to bring you back together.
But the remembering feelsdifferent.
You emerge as a new person andyou find that by the end of this
journey, their capacity or yourcapacity for compassion and
love towards others has grownsignificantly.
Kathy Gleason (18:33):
Oh yeah, you know we, yeah, I mean, I admit I'm
an entirely different person.
But the part that's kind ofdifficult for me really
sometimes is to, when I stop andthink about it, I have to say
that right now I'm probably thehappiest I've ever been in my
life and I never thought I wouldbe able to say that.
John Moir (18:57):
So do you think you're closer to whatever your
purpose was for you coming intothis world?
Kathy Gleason (19:04):
I think so.
I don't think I'm there yet,but I think so It'd be nice if I
had a roadmap.
So I know for sure.
But we don't, you know, it'sleft to interpretation, so I
don't know yet.
But I don't think I'm done byany means.
John Moir (19:25):
Yeah, you mean with your podcast and you worked in
palliative care.
Oh, it is just such a strongconnection to the topic.
And.
I'm wondering if that was kindof part of what you're supposed
to be doing in this lifetime.
Kathy Gleason (19:41):
I think the connection is there somewhere.
I don't know.
Again, I don't know.
One of the areas of the entirepalliative care, hospice and
everything like that that reallywill make me get on my soapbox,
so to speak, is the idea ofpeople who are diagnosed with a
(20:03):
terminal illness and reach thatpoint where they just want to
end their own life.
There's all the legalities, ofcourse, that say, oh, you can't
do that and you can't helpanybody do that.
But part of me just wants toshout out you know, if you have
a terminal diagnosis, whatdifference does it matter when?
(20:26):
So I kind of struggle with thatin my own mind back and forth
and back and forth, that thereare some issues not just that
one, but there are other healthcare related issues that the
legalities get in the way, thepeople telling you what you have
to do, what's right and what'swrong, doesn't seem fair.
(20:48):
I would like somehow for thereto be, for people to have more
freedom to choose their path,not necessarily be able to kill
themselves legally, but at leasthave more autonomy, I guess, in
those choices.
John Moir (21:08):
I wonder often.
You know, when you walk downthe street or you bump into
somebody you don't know, but youhave this convert the hearts
come together and you have thesewonderful old and vulnerable
conversations with you you havenever met before.
But when you leave thatconversation you just feel
wonderful and somehow you feelthat something opened up in us
(21:30):
and for days we'll be thinkingof these people.
So let's move to creativity andyour creation.
I mean, did you come up with asI live in grave?
I mean it's very catchy.
Kathy Gleason (21:41):
Oh well, the entire podcast was almost divine
intervention.
Whatever divinity you like, Ihave mine, I have mine.
But I had been at a comfortcare home, a hospice home in our
area, and they had asked me tolead a bereavement group, which
(22:02):
I did, and we had three meetingsand then COVID hit full force
and that was the end of thebereavement group.
So as COVID started to wax andwane a bit, they came back and
they said Kathy, would you startthat group again?
And I said you know, one of themantras, if you will, for me of
(22:22):
volunteering anywhere is whenit gets to the point that I'm
giving more than I'm getting, Ineed to reevaluate.
And I said I'm doing a lot ofpreparation and everything, and
one or two people would show up.
That's just.
The purpose is to make deatheasier to talk about, and a
(22:44):
bereavement group's not doing itfor me.
It just wasn't.
I didn't feel valued, I didn'tfeel rewarded and I wanted to
feel something.
It wasn't helping me either.
And I said I don't know.
We were sitting around thedining room table at the home.
My daughter, stephanie, wasthere and we're going well.
What can we do?
What can we do?
Can we do a virtual bereavementgroup and reach more people.
(23:05):
Back and forth, back and forth.
And all of a sudden the wordcame out of my mouth podcast.
I hadn't been thinking aboutpodcasts.
I had never listened to apodcast, I only knew they
existed and basically what theywere.
That was it.
As soon as I said it, mydaughter, stephanie, goes.
(23:25):
Mom, that's a great idea.
I'll help you with that.
So she sat down at the tableand we started planning.
Six weeks later we had recordedfive episodes and we launched
our podcast.
In that six weeks we did allour research, we learned what we
needed to do, we did our coverart, we got accepted on all the
podcast apps and everything andwe launched the podcast.
(23:49):
And as far as the name, we keptgoing back and forth and of
course, I always liked the goodgrief thing.
I just, you know, an authorrelies on words and that's.
I couldn't get away from thatone.
But there was already a podcastcalled Good Grief, so that
wasn't gonna work.
I went back and forth and backand forth and trying to think of
(24:09):
acronyms, couldn't come up withanything I liked and I got
frustrated one day and thephrase as I live and breathe
came into my mind and I thought,oh wait, let's just swap out
the word breathe for grief, liveand grieve and it just seemed
to fit and that's how we got thename.
And I know I'm gonna grieve therest of my life and I was
(24:32):
probably grieving long before Ieven knew I was grieving.
I don't know how anybody couldmake it through COVID, through
the pandemic, and not begrieving.
Each and every single personlost something, or some things
or some people.
Yes.
We all lost.
Even today, our lifestyles arecompletely different.
(24:54):
So many more people work fromhome now than ever did.
If they want to run to thestore, they can do it in the
middle of the day.
Just rearrange their ownschedule because they work from
home.
John Moir (25:07):
Did you ever keep track of the number of people
that you've impacted by youryour podcast?
Kathy Gleason (25:16):
Oh heavens, no, I probably.
You know.
I'm hoping there are many, manythat I don't even know about.
John Moir (25:24):
Does your approaching is at 200 episodes?
Yeah, we've got about 154, 155now.
Kathy Gleason (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, three years of weekly episodes.
I think we missed one week inthere, yeah.
And then, of course, one weekthat I did my own thing, and the
initial one when Stephanie andI just kind of introduced
ourselves.
But yeah, it's 150 somethingnow.
You add up all your downloads?
(25:54):
I don't, you know, I look athim every so often.
I kind of get shocked.
We have one particular guestwho has a huge following and
he's been back on our podcastnumerous times.
I just I adore him, gary Rowe.
He's a very prolific author,christian author.
(26:14):
His words are wonderful, sosoothing, and every time he
comes on, of course he sends inhis newsletter, he sends out
that he was on our podcast andhe puts the link in there.
And of course you know thatweek alone we'll have thousands
of downloads on a normal week.
Now, I mean, we started out wewere tickled pink when we
(26:35):
reached 50 downloads in a weekand now we're, you know well
well, into the hundreds.
You know 300 or more, dependingon the episode, the topic and
everything like that.
But other than just kind ofglancing at it, I don't focus on
it.
The statistic that tickles memost probably is that we have
listeners in 95 countries aroundthe world and on the platform
(26:59):
we use they have a world map andthey'll show you where all
those listens are and it's kindof neat.
There's countries I've neverheard of.
Actually, I think there's about150 countries in the world.
So we've still got room to growand I had a friend that was
going on a tour to I think hewas going up to the Arctic and I
(27:22):
said well, you know, try tofind a cell tower somewhere and
listen to the podcast so that Ican have a download it.
You know, north or south pole,but other than that I don't
focus on the statistics.
I am delighted when someoneemails me, reaches out to me.
They sometimes will refersomeone to be a guest or they'll
(27:43):
just tell me their own story.
John Moir (27:46):
I love that, but yeah , for me it's just the number of
people that you're touching.
One of our management,patrician, I first started the
social sorrows, to promote ourworkshops and grief circles.
We want to increase griefliteracy and through that people
will heal differently, likethere's nothing wrong with
people, and I think youmentioned that in your broadcast
(28:07):
, your story, that that grief isjust a natural human emotion.
Kathy Gleason (28:13):
Yeah, you know, I just think it's if you can
somehow figure out for yourselfbecause everybody's different
how to use your grief to makesome changes, even if it's the
slightest change in your routine, one day where maybe you get up
(28:35):
and go outside for a walk ordrive to the park and just sit
there on a rock or on a picnicbench and just sit outside for a
little while and do nothing,even if that's what it is.
Just do something a littledifferent and eventually I think
you'll get more accustomed todoing things differently, to
(28:58):
bring yourself through the griefand make some progress, so you
won't feel quite so desolate andburdened with it.
John Moir (29:08):
Well, that might be a good place to end our
conversation for today with withKathy Gleason and the wisdom
that she has developed over thetwo and a half years of
podcasting and speaking to allthese wonderful people that you
come across.
Kathy Gleason (29:26):
Yeah, I love it.
I would if it wouldn't be thesame without the guests.
It really wouldn't.
John Moir (29:33):
All right, you have a nice day.
Kathy Gleason (29:35):
Thank you very much.
Bless you, bye, bye.
John Moir (29:41):
Grief is a heavy burden to bear and can often
feel isolating and overwhelming.
That's where grief circles comein, offering a supportive and
understanding community to thosewho are grieving.
You can't be both the grieverand the container of your grief.
This is the purpose of griefcircles to be the holder and the
witness to your pain.
Your soul wants you to speak ofyour grief, to express your
(30:03):
pain, your loss and to shareyour history and stories of that
which has been taken.
The Urban Grief Shaman'spodcast is an off-shoot of
Soulful Sorrows, a grief tendingwebsite.
Here under the service menu youwill find our monthly circles.
Please take the time to take alook and book into one or more
of these monthly circles.
Thank you for joining us intothe world of Shamanism and its
(30:29):
connection to grief healing andspiritual growth.
If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe to the
Urban Grief Shaman, so you nevermiss an episode and if you have
any questions or would like toexplore this topic further,
please reach out to us forcomments and support in the
world to us.
Until next time, may you findgrace and insight into your own
(30:51):
spiritual journey.
Welcome to the Urban Grief.
Kathy Gleason (03:50):
Me too.
I was looking forward to thisever since you invited me.
John Moir (03:54):
I'm glad to hear this .
You've been a mentor ever sincePatricia and I were guests on
your show as I live in grief andyou've been encouraging us to
take a leap into podcasting.
Kathy Gleason (04:06):
I just think you have a lot of not just
experience but information aswell from a different
perspective.
That I think really to meanyway it makes so much sense
and kind of fills in some ofthose gaps from the theological
(04:26):
background.
I had as a child growing up inthe Episcopal Church, All those
questions I have wondering about.
You know, gosh, what aboutspirits and everything like that
?
How does that all fit in?
But many of the things that youand Patricia also said just
kind of filled in those gaps forme and I think, well, it likely
will for others as well.
(04:47):
And there's there are a lot ofpodcasts out there that deal
with grief and death and eventheology and everything, but I
have not seen any with yourperspective of the shamanism.
I have not seen that.
So I think it will be a wellreceived podcast.
John Moir (05:05):
Thank you.
So in this episode we want totalk about grief and creativity.
You heard when I was growing upthat our best works of art and
literature take place duringtimes of upheaval, so I was
wondering if you could share thebeginning of your story with us
.
Kathy Gleason (05:23):
The beginning of my story, I guess, would be that
I was pretty much brought up ina Norman Rockwell type family.
The big difference and this wasin the 50s, when I was a very
young child was that in myfamily both my parents worked.
My mother happened to be theprincipal secretary at the
(05:45):
elementary school right acrossthe street from our house.
So I grew up with both parentsworking and wound up.
Since there were no daycarecenters like that, most times I
wound up across the street atschool with my mother.
Either attending an extra class, like kindergarten, was a half
day, I went for a full day justbecause it was free, and then
(06:10):
after school, as I grew up andeverything, I would be in my
mother's office and I would helpher, and so that was kind of my
background.
But in our family my parentswere also extremely protective,
and one of the things theyprotected me from, of course,
were any of the negativeemotions or experiences that we
(06:32):
might come across.
I remember when each of mygrandparents died this would be
my mother's parents.
They died within a month ofeach other and I have vague
recollections of curiositiesabout what had happened and
wanting to go to the funeralhome, but my parents said no, no
(06:52):
, you stay home.
A funeral home is not a placefor children.
So I did, and it wasn't until Iwas an adult that I even
ventured near a funeral home,and oddly enough, that was on
Halloween, when I was on aUNICEF drive and we happened to
take our little coin banks andgo up to the door of a funeral
(07:16):
home because the lights were on.
That was the closest I got to afuneral home up to that point,
and as I look back at that now,I think that has to account
somewhat for the fear and I meanliteral fear I had of the word
death as well as the concept, sothat became a huge obstacle as
(07:39):
I grew, to try to cross thatbarrier.
It was not easy, and in truth,I never really became
comfortable even saying the worddeath until I was a grown,
married woman and my mother died, even to the death of my father
(08:01):
and infant son, and then mymother.
Finally.
After that, I finally startedto become comfortable with that
concept.
It's quite common in ourculture, though, isn't it, to
not?
John Moir (08:14):
speak of grief or death and nobody wants to die
and in our culture we certainlywant to be beautiful and young
forever, and even deep emotions.
I grew up in a time when mendidn't cry.
I can kind of remember mymother, while I was in my
wedding, wanted to tell mystepdad I loved him and to thank
him for being there for me.
I love him.
I was starting to get emotionaland I remember my mom looking
(08:36):
at me just shaking her head inthe no gesture to cry.
So we get a lot of our priming,I think, when we're young.
Kathy Gleason (08:42):
We do and you know, following in the footsteps
of my parents with my own twodaughters as a single mom, I
remember having to attend afuneral and Stephanie said can I
come along?
And I said, no, no, you don'tneed to go, you stay home.
She even remarked in one of ourpodcast episodes that it wasn't
(09:02):
until she was almost 20 thatshe was going to go to calling
hours at a funeral home and shehad no idea what to expect.
She was terrified to go becauseshe didn't know what she would
see or how she should act oranything.
And then I realized that I haddone the same thing my parents
had, by protecting her.
(09:24):
Stephanie learned and when myhusband Tom died, she of course,
the entire time he was ill, hadbeen talking to her two boys,
and both boys were at callinghours.
They were at the funeral home.
And even the youngest, who atthe time was in sixth grade, he
did a presentation that wastheir annual project before
(09:47):
graduating elementary school.
He did his annual project onAgent Orange and how it impacted
Tom's death and stood up there,tears streaming down his face,
words stuck in his throat, buthe stood up there in front of
parents and teachers, facultyadministration and talked it out
(10:09):
and I was just.
I was awestruck.
John Moir (10:13):
You must have been very proud.
R you said you never understoodwhat grief was about.
Kathy Gleason (10:20):
I didn't.
I don't think I even spoke theword.
For years and years I had noneed of it because it didn't
happen, or at least I didn'tattribute it as happening.
And again, a late adultdiscovery is that I don't
believe that I ever grieved thedeath of my father or my infant
(10:43):
son.
I didn't know, that's what Iwas feeling, and at that time
you just sucked it up and moved,you know, and three days later,
back to work and just a normalday.
They were just gone period.
John Moir (10:58):
Yeah, so do you remember when it was that you
felt that you hit that point inyour life where your grief
became bottomless whileconsuming?
Kathy Gleason (11:11):
I do.
Actually, it wasn't until aftermy husband, tom, died and we
had known for eight months thatthe cancer that he had was not
curable and I watched himdecline and by that time I had
been working in hospice a littlebit, so I was aware of some of
(11:32):
the signs when a person isactively dying the modeling of
the skin and the legs andeverything, and how it will kind
of creep up the body, and I wasseeing all those signs in Tom.
And then I went in, of course,the day that I knew he was going
to die that day because he hadthat gurgling breathing, that
kind of death rattle they callit, and I was ready for it.
(11:57):
But it didn't impact me, itwasn't really, for I want to say
a couple weeks after we had thecelebration of his life and I
was at home and realized thatnot only had I Not had a shower
in days and not changed myclothes, but I also had not left
(12:19):
the house, that even to Let thedogs out I would open the door,
hook their chain on them andlet them out.
I hadn't even gone out on thedeck of my house.
And it hit me then and I thoughtif I don't do something, I'm
going to live the rest of mylife like this and I don't want
(12:41):
to live like this forever.
And at that point I I did whatI always turned to, and that was
music and books.
And I put music on.
There was probably a littlesomber, but at the time it was
what I needed and it releasedsome emotions.
(13:02):
And I sobbed and sobbed forhours and Then I grabbed a book
that a friend of mine had sentme and started reading it.
It was poetry, wasn'tapplicable to grief at all, but
I just got lost in the words.
And then that afternoon I gotup and I took a shower and put
on clean clothes, went to thegrocery store and Really, just
(13:23):
from that point on, startedmaking changes.
John Moir (13:25):
Mm-hmm.
Does it ever come back and biteyou?
Kathy Gleason (13:29):
Yeah, sometimes, yeah, usually on the the
anniversary of his death.
I don't remember theanniversary of my mother's death
.
I know approximately, but Idon't know the day or the year.
At this point I Do for my son,but not for my father, but for
(13:52):
some reason Tom's day of deathis easier to remember than his
birthday.
Hmm and and I don't know whythat is, but on those days
sometimes it will come back,sometimes at a parade, because
he was retired US Army andBlonged to the Vietnam vets of
(14:13):
America.
They usually march in parades,so sometimes when I see them
I'll start to get veryteary-eyed and very emotional
Because I know that Tom was justso loyal to them.
But yeah, there are times.
It's never as bad, though thatwas the worst, that was the
bottom for me.
John Moir (14:33):
Kathy, I can only begin to imagine that the pain,
possibly fear and isolation thatyou're facing at this time.
It reminds me of what FrancisWeller, the author of the Wild
Edge of sorrow Then I knowyou've read his book describes
as a rough initiation.
This isn't a journey wewillingly embark upon, is it?
It's more like we're trying tojust hold on tightly to what we
(14:55):
cherish most.
In our grieving we do change.
It's as if we lose part of ouridentity and find ourselves
pulling away from others.
And from my shamanicperspective, grieving is deeply
spiritual work.
It's challenging, raw, and itcan feel incredibly lonely, but
the ache in our hearts.
There's also a profoundconnection to our soul, and it
(15:19):
marks the start of atransformative journey, one that
might even lead us to our firststeps in creative expression.
As, wondering, does thisresonate with you?
Kathy Gleason (15:28):
I think it is especially looking back at the
time.
I don't think I was aware ofthat concept, but looking back I
remember talking to my daughteron the phone and saying I'm
tired, I'm exhausted.
I feel like I'm redefiningmyself.
I'm no longer the person I wasbefore, and During the eight
(15:49):
months when I was taking care ofTom I didn't really realize how
much of my life and how much ofme I had given up gladly to
help him.
But I Was just gone.
I, you know, had nothing, noactivities, none of the
friendships or relationships,except for work and that was in
(16:12):
the hospice industry.
But I said I'm redefining myself.
I didn't look at it as beingcreative.
For some reason, to me griefWas an end.
It was an end.
That was like the stoppingpoint everybody off the bus.
This is the end of the road.
I Don't know why, but as Istarted to work through some
(16:36):
things and started to read moreand Get out more and do more
things, I Realized it certainlyisn't the end and my grief for
me almost became a catalyst yeah, so, yeah.
So in that way and you knowI've always been kind of
creative I am today.
(16:57):
I am somebody I have never beenbefore.
I Used to be an introvert.
I'm not necessarily anintrovert.
Sometimes it takes a little bitof a nudge to get me going, but
it just.
You know, there's so much that Ifeel has to be done and I want
to be a part of doing it andfinding creative ways to do it.
(17:19):
And you know, I think I'mTrying to stay more open to the
signs along the road and, youknow, say oh yeah, all right,
I'll go that way and see whathappens.
John Moir (17:30):
Mm-hmm.
I, Kathie, I think you'll findthis interesting.
Coming from a shamanicviewpoint, the initial stages of
intense grief for us is like adismemberment.
This is a time when everythingfeels scattered and
disorientated, and giving as agrieving deeply, I should say
can change you profoundly.
In shamanic dismemberment,charities, it's like being
(17:52):
broken down completely right toyour core, to your very essence,
and grief is very much likethis, as we both can agree on.
This process can be experiencedin different ways.
Sometimes it's enveloped in asense of love and care, but at
other times, I tell you, it canbe quite scary, just like grief,
when we just don't know wherethe bottom is.
(18:13):
The second part of this journeyis crucial, and this is when
the spirit starts to rememberyou, to bring you back together.
But the remembering feelsdifferent.
You emerge as a new person andyou find that by the end of this
journey, their capacity or yourcapacity for compassion and
love towards others has grownsignificantly.
Kathy Gleason (18:33):
Oh yeah, you know we, yeah, I mean, I admit I'm
an entirely different person.
But the part that's kind ofdifficult for me really
sometimes is to, when I stop andthink about it, I have to say
that right now I'm probably thehappiest I've ever been in my
life and I never thought I wouldbe able to say that.
John Moir (18:57):
So do you think you're closer to whatever your
purpose was for you coming intothis world?
Kathy Gleason (19:04):
I think so.
I don't think I'm there yet,but I think so It'd be nice if I
had a roadmap.
So I know for sure.
But we don't, you know, it'sleft to interpretation, so I
don't know yet.
But I don't think I'm done byany means.
John Moir (19:25):
Yeah, you mean with your podcast and you worked in
palliative care.
Oh, it is just such a strongconnection to the topic.
And.
I'm wondering if that was kindof part of what you're supposed
to be doing in this lifetime.
Kathy Gleason (19:41):
I think the connection is there somewhere.
I don't know.
Again, I don't know.
One of the areas of the entirepalliative care, hospice and
everything like that that reallywill make me get on my soapbox,
so to speak, is the idea ofpeople who are diagnosed with a
(20:03):
terminal illness and reach thatpoint where they just want to
end their own life.
There's all the legalities, ofcourse, that say, oh, you can't
do that and you can't helpanybody do that.
But part of me just wants toshout out you know, if you have
a terminal diagnosis, whatdifference does it matter when?
(20:26):
So I kind of struggle with thatin my own mind back and forth
and back and forth, that thereare some issues not just that
one, but there are other healthcare related issues that the
legalities get in the way, thepeople telling you what you have
to do, what's right and what'swrong, doesn't seem fair.
(20:48):
I would like somehow for thereto be, for people to have more
freedom to choose their path,not necessarily be able to kill
themselves legally, but at leasthave more autonomy, I guess, in
those choices.
John Moir (21:08):
I wonder often.
You know, when you walk downthe street or you bump into
somebody you don't know, but youhave this convert the hearts
come together and you have thesewonderful old and vulnerable
conversations with you you havenever met before.
But when you leave thatconversation you just feel
wonderful and somehow you feelthat something opened up in us
(21:30):
and for days we'll be thinkingof these people.
So let's move to creativity andyour creation.
I mean, did you come up with asI live in grave?
I mean it's very catchy.
Kathy Gleason (21:41):
Oh well, the entire podcast was almost divine
intervention.
Whatever divinity you like, Ihave mine, I have mine.
But I had been at a comfortcare home, a hospice home in our
area, and they had asked me tolead a bereavement group, which
(22:02):
I did, and we had three meetingsand then COVID hit full force
and that was the end of thebereavement group.
So as COVID started to wax andwane a bit, they came back and
they said Kathy, would you startthat group again?
And I said you know, one of themantras, if you will, for me of
(22:22):
volunteering anywhere is whenit gets to the point that I'm
giving more than I'm getting, Ineed to reevaluate.
And I said I'm doing a lot ofpreparation and everything, and
one or two people would show up.
That's just.
The purpose is to make deatheasier to talk about, and a
(22:44):
bereavement group's not doing itfor me.
It just wasn't.
I didn't feel valued, I didn'tfeel rewarded and I wanted to
feel something.
It wasn't helping me either.
And I said I don't know.
We were sitting around thedining room table at the home.
My daughter, stephanie, wasthere and we're going well.
What can we do?
What can we do?
Can we do a virtual bereavementgroup and reach more people.
(23:05):
Back and forth, back and forth.
And all of a sudden the wordcame out of my mouth podcast.
I hadn't been thinking aboutpodcasts.
I had never listened to apodcast, I only knew they
existed and basically what theywere.
That was it.
As soon as I said it, mydaughter, stephanie, goes.
(23:25):
Mom, that's a great idea.
I'll help you with that.
So she sat down at the tableand we started planning.
Six weeks later we had recordedfive episodes and we launched
our podcast.
In that six weeks we did allour research, we learned what we
needed to do, we did our coverart, we got accepted on all the
podcast apps and everything andwe launched the podcast.
(23:49):
And as far as the name, we keptgoing back and forth and of
course, I always liked the goodgrief thing.
I just, you know, an authorrelies on words and that's.
I couldn't get away from thatone.
But there was already a podcastcalled Good Grief, so that
wasn't gonna work.
I went back and forth and backand forth and trying to think of
(24:09):
acronyms, couldn't come up withanything I liked and I got
frustrated one day and thephrase as I live and breathe
came into my mind and I thought,oh wait, let's just swap out
the word breathe for grief, liveand grieve and it just seemed
to fit and that's how we got thename.
And I know I'm gonna grieve therest of my life and I was
(24:32):
probably grieving long before Ieven knew I was grieving.
I don't know how anybody couldmake it through COVID, through
the pandemic, and not begrieving.
Each and every single personlost something, or some things
or some people.
Yes.
We all lost.
Even today, our lifestyles arecompletely different.
(24:54):
So many more people work fromhome now than ever did.
If they want to run to thestore, they can do it in the
middle of the day.
Just rearrange their ownschedule because they work from
home.
John Moir (25:07):
Did you ever keep track of the number of people
that you've impacted by youryour podcast?
Kathy Gleason (25:16):
Oh heavens, no, I probably.
You know.
I'm hoping there are many, manythat I don't even know about.
John Moir (25:24):
Does your approaching is at 200 episodes?
Yeah, we've got about 154, 155now.
Kathy Gleason (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, three years of weekly episodes.
I think we missed one week inthere, yeah.
And then, of course, one weekthat I did my own thing, and the
initial one when Stephanie andI just kind of introduced
ourselves.
But yeah, it's 150 somethingnow.
You add up all your downloads?
(25:54):
I don't, you know, I look athim every so often.
I kind of get shocked.
We have one particular guestwho has a huge following and
he's been back on our podcastnumerous times.
I just I adore him, gary Rowe.
He's a very prolific author,christian author.
(26:14):
His words are wonderful, sosoothing, and every time he
comes on, of course he sends inhis newsletter, he sends out
that he was on our podcast andhe puts the link in there.
And of course you know thatweek alone we'll have thousands
of downloads on a normal week.
Now, I mean, we started out wewere tickled pink when we
(26:35):
reached 50 downloads in a weekand now we're, you know well
well, into the hundreds.
You know 300 or more, dependingon the episode, the topic and
everything like that.
But other than just kind ofglancing at it, I don't focus on
it.
The statistic that tickles memost probably is that we have
listeners in 95 countries aroundthe world and on the platform
(26:59):
we use they have a world map andthey'll show you where all
those listens are and it's kindof neat.
There's countries I've neverheard of.
Actually, I think there's about150 countries in the world.
So we've still got room to growand I had a friend that was
going on a tour to I think hewas going up to the Arctic and I
(27:22):
said well, you know, try tofind a cell tower somewhere and
listen to the podcast so that Ican have a download it.
You know, north or south pole,but other than that I don't
focus on the statistics.
I am delighted when someoneemails me, reaches out to me.
They sometimes will refersomeone to be a guest or they'll
(27:43):
just tell me their own story.
John Moir (27:46):
I love that, but yeah , for me it's just the number of
people that you're touching.
One of our management,patrician, I first started the
social sorrows, to promote ourworkshops and grief circles.
We want to increase griefliteracy and through that people
will heal differently, likethere's nothing wrong with
people, and I think youmentioned that in your broadcast
(28:07):
, your story, that that grief isjust a natural human emotion.
Kathy Gleason (28:13):
Yeah, you know, I just think it's if you can
somehow figure out for yourselfbecause everybody's different
how to use your grief to makesome changes, even if it's the
slightest change in your routine, one day where maybe you get up
(28:35):
and go outside for a walk ordrive to the park and just sit
there on a rock or on a picnicbench and just sit outside for a
little while and do nothing,even if that's what it is.
Just do something a littledifferent and eventually I think
you'll get more accustomed todoing things differently, to
(28:58):
bring yourself through the griefand make some progress, so you
won't feel quite so desolate andburdened with it.
John Moir (29:08):
Well, that might be a good place to end our
conversation for today with withKathy Gleason and the wisdom
that she has developed over thetwo and a half years of
podcasting and speaking to allthese wonderful people that you
come across.
Kathy Gleason (29:26):
Yeah, I love it.
I would if it wouldn't be thesame without the guests.
It really wouldn't.
John Moir (29:33):
All right, you have a nice day.
Kathy Gleason (29:35):
Thank you very much.
Bless you, bye, bye.
John Moir (29:41):
Grief is a heavy burden to bear and can often
feel isolating and overwhelming.
That's where grief circles comein, offering a supportive and
understanding community to thosewho are grieving.
You can't be both the grieverand the container of your grief.
This is the purpose of griefcircles to be the holder and the
witness to your pain.
Your soul wants you to speak ofyour grief, to express your
(30:03):
pain, your loss and to shareyour history and stories of that
which has been taken.
The Urban Grief Shaman'spodcast is an off-shoot of
Soulful Sorrows, a grief tendingwebsite.
Here under the service menu youwill find our monthly circles.
Please take the time to take alook and book into one or more
of these monthly circles.
Thank you for joining us intothe world of Shamanism and its
(30:29):
connection to grief healing andspiritual growth.
If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe to the
Urban Grief Shaman, so you nevermiss an episode and if you have
any questions or would like toexplore this topic further,
please reach out to us forcomments and support in the
world to us.
Until next time, may you findgrace and insight into your own
(30:51):
spiritual journey.
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