May 17, 2024 • 33 mins
In this inspiring episode, we sit down with Bob Martin, a man whose life story reads like a film script, transitioning from a mob lawyer during Miami's tumultuous "Cocaine Cowboy" days to a serene meditation teacher and Mindfulness Coordinator at Elon University. Bob shares the riveting details of his past and the profound spiritual awakening that reshaped his future. Guided by the teachings of a 72nd-generation Taoist Master, Bob found a path to redemption and a renewed purpose through the integration of Taoist, Buddhist, and Christian philosophies.
Join us as Bob delves into the pivotal moments that led to his transformation, his approach to blending diverse spiritual practices, and how he applies this ancient wisdom to modern-day challenges. Whether discussing his legal battles, personal struggles, or the quiet moments of reflection that led to significant breakthroughs, Bob’s journey is a powerful testament to the transformative power of spirituality and the human capacity for change.
This episode is more than just a narrative of personal redemption. It's a universal story of hope and resilience, a beacon for anyone facing life's challenges. Bob Martin's journey shows us that no matter our background or circumstances, we all have the potential for transformation through spirituality. Tune in to discover how embracing our diverse spiritual heritage can lead to profound personal and societal healing.
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Foundation for Shamanic Studies: Explore here
“The Way of the Shaman” book by Michael Harner
Society for Shamanic Practice: Explore here
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John@urbangriefshamans.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Moir (00:18):
Christianity at its core believes that God created
the world and declared it good,imbuing it with his presence and
divine purpose.
This foundational beliefbeautifully aligns with animist
perspectives, which alsorecognize the spirit or life
force in all elements of nature.
Both traditions thereforeencourage a heartfelt respect
(00:41):
for the environment, viewing itas a manifestation of the divine
.
This shared value underscoresthe common ground between
Christianity and animism,deepening the respect for
creation.
Moreover, animism's emphasis oncommunity rituals and the
(01:03):
honoring of ancestors can enrichChristian practices.
These rituals offer a warmcommunal space that reinforce
the Christian values offellowship and honor for one's
forebears.
By integrating these practices,christians can deepen their
faith and strengthen theircommunity bonds, as expressed in
(01:25):
the biblical commandment tohonor your father and your
mother.
Bob Martin (01:31):
I started working as a public defender and
representing folks that couldnot afford a lawyer and I kept
seeing them go through thisrevolving door.
So it hurt me to see that itwas like a factory.
Somebody would commit a mistakeand they'd come into the system
and they would be processed andspit out and go do whatever
(01:54):
they had to do and then come outand of course there's no
support and it hurt.
John Moir (02:02):
Bob, tell me about your spiritual awakening.
I know there were big changesin your life during your
childhood your parents weren'tnecessarily the emotive kind and
then the ancestral burden thatyour family carried down from
the Bolsheviks.
And do you call them gypsies,or are they?
Bob Martin (02:20):
travelers, travelers yeah, not all Romas were
gypsies or travelers.
Some were founded, but many ofthem were Not only having
parents that immigratedthemselves.
Here in North Carolina I have alot of friends whose families
go back to the Scottish pioneersand the like and they've been
(02:41):
here for 300 years.
Their families and I thinkabout my line in America.
It goes back to when my fathergot here and then it takes a
right turn but then it doesn'tgo anywhere.
It goes back to Hungary and weknow something about that, but
there's no ancestral thing there.
So that kind of ancestraltrauma certainly follows me, but
(03:03):
it's nothing like having gonethrough the trail of tears or
having had your ancestorsenslaved for years and picked up
out of there the ancestraltrauma that some of our
marginalized folks have today.
I can't complain.
John Moir (03:21):
That's true enough, but in the moment I don't think
that we ever had that choice.
No matter how it comes to us,it's involuntary, like our
reactions to it.
Bob Martin (03:30):
I was just wondering what was the forces behind your
spiritual awakening?
I worked for Janet Reno, wholater became the attorney
general under the Clintonadministration.
I worked for her and I was partof the Crimes and Consumer
Frauds Task Force, together withthe feds, and we wound up
hitting the mob for $72 million.
(03:51):
Shortly after that I left theoffice, hung my shingle out and
I'll call him Johnny, came tovisit me and basically the
conversation was you got to bepretty good to hit us for that
much.
Would you mind if I sent yousome clients?
That's how it started.
I got to know Johnny and atthat level in Miami, the Cubans
(04:15):
and the Haitians, the Italians,colombians and the Peruvians all
were talking together at somelevel because they all assisted
on the routes.
Our deal was nothing illegal,nothing unethical.
You want a lawyer that'srespected.
That's in your best interest.
If I ever get caught doingsomething like that, it's going
(04:37):
to come back and be abused.
It worked out very well.
They were always good for theirword until his son got busted
and then there was no saying noto him.
But during that period of time Iwas going out with them a lot,
going to a lot of those chromeand glass bars and maybe doing a
lot of stuff that I shouldn'thave been doing, and it was
(04:58):
impacting my family life.
Things were spiraling downwards, so I was seeing a therapist
life.
Things were spiraling downwardsso I was seeing a therapist and
one day I was arrogant and Ithought that I couldn't fail at
anything and I decided I wasgoing to try to go into a
business that was going to makeme a million dollars.
I was going to be the richestperson.
It was great, it's wonderful.
(05:19):
It wasn't working out.
Because I wasn't working out, Ihad already paid my house off
at 32.
And I had to make a decisionwhether I was going to refinance
my house to keep this businessventure going.
So I went and I said whatshould I do?
He goes behind himself.
(05:39):
He picks up a little bag withthree Chinese coins in it,
shakes the coins, drops them onthe thing, looks at them, makes
a couple of mathematicalcalculations, draws a line,
picks them up, does it again andagain six times, until he drew
six lines.
And I'm aghast, I'm looking atthis.
I'm paying the guy 65 bucks anhour.
He's throwing coins in the mostimportant question of my life.
(06:04):
Finally, he writes down anumber out of his calculations
turns around, gets this book,opens it up to that chapter and
the title of the chapter isRetreat.
I cursed him out and I stompedout and I thought that he was a
witch doctor or something.
At least I thought he was.
So I went to the office of thebusiness and I went in and I
(06:26):
said to everybody we're closed,we're not going to make it,
we're done.
And I did not refinance myhouse and I did not put myself
into a position where I couldnot have gotten out of With my
tail between my legs.
I go back a couple of weekslater and, george, what was that
?
And he goes oh, that was the IChing.
(06:48):
Turned out that my epist wasthe English language editor for
a 72nd generation Taoist masterfrom the Shaolin Temple.
Taoism itself, that Kung Fu andTai Chi and.
Qigong and yin-yang, balance allof that.
So I said what's Taoism?
(07:08):
It interested me because myfamily was atheist and I didn't
have any kind of particularreligious background, something
I'd been searching for a longtime and here was something that
gave me a pathway to live lifein a virtuous and proper,
efficient and effective way thatdidn't require me to have to
(07:31):
believe in anything supernatural.
So I loved it, I just took toit and I studied under George
Masterny, came to Miami oftenand he had to be the happiest
man that I'd ever run into in mylife A shaman, yes.
We would play hide and seekwith him and we could never find
him.
That's just how he was.
(07:52):
He was just the most amazingfellow.
I remember one time we asked himthe question what's it like to
be you?
What goes on in your mind?
And his immediate response wasno rehearsing thoughts, no
thoughts.
And then he just giggled andwalked away and we started
thinking about that and werealized that this is somebody
(08:14):
who doesn't have anyconversation going on in their
mind.
They're just open and availableand when something happens,
they respond to it like abasketball player who's in the
zone responds to what's going onaround them.
There's no effort involved,there's just responsiveness, and
that in Taoism is known as wuwei, which means doing, not
(08:38):
doing.
The funniest thing is that wuthe word wu is also Chinese for
shaman, so there is somethingmystical about all of Taoism.
John Moir (08:48):
I know the three coins and the tossing of the
coins struck me as a veryshamanic process.
It's like divination.
Bob Martin (08:55):
I Ching was the practice that changed me.
It's one thing to study under amaster, but you have to do
practice, and every morning Iwould get up and get my coins.
I'd get three quarters andthrow them six times and write
the appropriate lines and divinethem to go to the appropriate
(09:16):
chapter and read it and overtime, what the I Ching taught me
was how to recognize the energythat is around me and be able
to understand how I could becomeeffective and efficient.
Kind of.
What I mean by that iscertainly we have all come into
times when we have a great andwonderful idea and nobody wants
(09:40):
to listen to us, right?
Yes, we've all experienced that.
The I Ching would label thattime darkening of the light.
You're too bright and you needto darken your light a bit.
It would advise you that in atime when nobody's listening to
you, it's better not to speakand use the time to work
internally so that when the timechanges and people are open to
(10:05):
your ideas, you have it alltogether so that you can make
your case clearly andauthentically.
The I Ching defines 64 pieslices of different times.
There's a time to advance, atime to retreat, a time to wait,
a time to speak, a time ofgreat progress, a time of
(10:28):
walking in mud.
There are all these differenttimes and as you practice the I
Ching, you become more familiarwith being able to quickly
recognize the time you're in andnot work against it, not try to
row your river, row your boatupstream, rather navigate it
carefully downstream, and lifebecomes easier, become happier.
John Moir (10:49):
You spoke of the recognizing the energy that is
external to you and reading fromthat.
Is there an equivalent ofreading the energy?
Bob Martin (10:56):
that's inside you.
Meditation and in Taoism a lotof the ways of becoming familiar
with the internal energy isthrough movement, like Tai Chi,
and if you've ever seen advancedTai Chi the pushing of hands,
where two people stand oppositeeach other and they feel the
(11:18):
force that goes between them.
In doing that, they get aphysical sensation of the yin
and yang forces and the balancebetween yin and yang, and they
begin to be able to thentranspose that feeling to life.
Watch your thoughts and becomedetached from them in a certain
way, so that when you becomeangry, you get to be angry and
(12:15):
express your anger at the sametime.
From a detached place, watchyourself being angry and maybe
even be giggling at it, even asyou're angry, and so it makes
you much more resilient.
And again it all goes back toeverything passes.
John Moir (12:27):
I had an experience somewhat like that.
I was a paramedic and we werenear an accident scene.
We were unable to access thecrew on scene due to the
multi-lane nature of thisroadway.
It went on and thecommunications center came back
and saying why'd you do that?
They were upset with us becausewe were multiple lanes we would
have to cross.
So we're not going to do that.
But I remember during theconversation with the comm
(12:48):
center I was seething and Ithought for sure the supervisor
is going to come and visit andtell me about my on-air manners.
And anyways, he did come by andhe did bring a recording of the
whole thing.
And when I was listening to mycommunications with the comm
center I sounded quiet andcompletely opposite to the way I
(13:09):
was feeling inside and Ithought for sure I was going to
get busted.
So I don't know if it's thesame thing, but that idea of how
we can somehow separate the two, what we're feeling and what
we're expressing it's almostlike we're two souls at once or
something.
So are there other teachingsthat kind of help contribute
towards your transformation thatyou were starting to go through
?
Bob Martin (13:28):
So when I came to North Carolina, one of the
things that transformed about methat was different was that I
became much gentler and muchmore aware the effect that I had
on folks and much more aware ofmyself and therefore able to
read others' energies.
(13:48):
And I was doing criminal law atthe time.
I started working as a publicdefender and representing folks
that could not afford a lawyerand I kept seeing them go
through this revolving door.
So it hurt me to see that itwas like a factory.
Somebody would commit a mistakeand they'd come into the system
(14:10):
and they would be processed andspit out and go do whatever
they had to do and then come outand of course, there's no
support and it hurt.
So I closed my practice and Iwent back to school and got a
social work master's degree andin that I concentrated in my
studies on positive psychologyand science.
(14:34):
When I came back I went back andreopened my law office and then
I was able to commit tolistening to my client and I was
committed to this.
I could not guarantee, ofcourse, what would happen.
It was my job to advocate fortheir best interest, but the
ultimate result is that they maygo to jail or be placed on
(14:56):
probation or get someconsequence, and no matter what
their consequence was.
It was my commitment that whenthey left my presence they will
have felt heard, listened to,that somebody stood up for them,
and that they understood whywhat was happening to them was
(15:19):
happening to them.
I didn't want them to go outwith a narrative of I'm a victim
, I've been mishandled.
It's unfair.
Even if it was unfair, let'sunderstand all the dynamics of
why was it unfair?
And since then I've seen a lotof my clients have done their
(15:39):
whatever they needed to do andhave gotten much more productive
lives, and sometimes I run intothem on the street and they
tell me what a difference thatmade to them.
That lesson that I learned onceof how important it is for a
person to be heard has stayedwith me for a while and that's a
driving force within me.
John Moir (15:59):
Did you have any insight that, what path you
might've been on when you'reyounger, I think it was recorded
that you weren't necessarilywell-liked for different reasons
.
The girls didn't care for you,so it must have been that idea
of loneliness.
I don't want to put words inyour mouth, but shame from not
that something was wrong withyou.
(16:20):
At least that's how I wouldhave thought about myself.
I've been there and I was justwondering what your thoughts are
on that, as you're movingforward on this incredible life
that you have.
Bob Martin (16:32):
Yeah, I think about that a bit.
When I was young, all the girlsin starting about second grade
I was a hefty boy.
In those days the word washusky.
I remember my mother.
I would go in with my hand inher hand into JC Penney's and in
(16:52):
her loud Latvian voice shewould go where's the husky
department?
And so all the girls called mecooties and they ran away
whenever I came near.
There are two things I thinkthat saved me.
One is that I had a friend.
I had Charlie Greenfield.
He was my friend and he stoodby me and didn't matter what
(17:17):
everybody else felt.
All the other boys, they wantedto be popular with the girls,
so they went along with it, butnot Charlie Greenfield.
And there was this one personthere who loved me.
And later on in life, when Ifinally realized how important
he was to me we were both incollege, separated by about 500
(17:39):
miles I called him in the middleof the night to tell him that,
and after he heard me go on andon with it, he said can I go
back to bed now?
But then he wrote me a letterand he wrote me a short story
about how I was in an ice creamparlor and how the cooties.
A cootie had come in the plasticgame cootie and, as I was, we
(18:02):
were fixated on each other andslowly it began to smoke and
melt into a puddle and disappearand the cootie was gone and he
was quite a friend.
And I had a friend who kepttelling me I should be a lawyer.
And he wasn't working and hewent out and got a job and he
(18:23):
earned $356, which was theentrance fee for the law school
aptitude test, and he bought amoney order in that amount and
he gave it to me.
He said you should be a lawyer,you should go take this test.
So I couldn't say no, right.
So I did surprisingly well andI got admitted to a law school
(18:45):
that took a chance on me and Igraduated eventually and John
stayed with me all through thatand two days after I was sworn
in he died.
John Moir (18:57):
Oh, my Did he have any sense that he was unwell.
Bob Martin (19:00):
No, he had been a heroin addict and all through
the time that I was in lawschool and he was going to
community college and I wasgoing, I was in law school and
he was going to communitycollege and I was going to be
Perry Mason and he was going tobe my Paul Drake.
But he stayed with me, he wasclean and then somehow he met a
girl and he decided to use andhis tolerance wasn't there
anymore and he overdosed.
(19:21):
But I have always felt thatJohn was here.
For that very particular reason.
It's given my life purpose andmeaning.
And there's just one otherthing Even though my folks were
atheists because all of theirancestors had been wiped out by
either the Bolsheviks or theNazis, my father made me go to
(19:43):
children's Bible school,children's Sunday school, to a
service.
We never studied anything but Ihad to go to because he said we
are the Madicans and you mustknow the Bible stories.
If you're going to be anAmerican you must know the Bible
stories.
So he took me all the time andI would go into Sunday school
(20:05):
class.
All of the stuff like Noah'sArk and all that stuff was kind
of Disney to me.
But there was one consistentmessage that I kept hearing in
all those Sunday schools, andthat was that there was some guy
and he was undefined I wasn'tquite exactly sure what or who
(20:25):
he was and he was out in theuniverse, somewhere.
He wasn't on the earth, butthat he loved me.
I accepted the fact that therewas this guy somewhere, who I
did not understand, that lovedme Between Charlie Greenfield
and John, and this divine beingthat loved me.
(20:50):
It gave me, I think, thestrength to challenge the
challenges.
John Moir (20:56):
Yeah, and you're referring to Jesus.
Bob Martin (20:58):
Yes.
John Moir (20:59):
I see you became a meditation teacher and did you
carry that into your lawpractice?
Bob Martin (21:05):
Yes, certainly I did not.
Meditation teaching so much asmy practice.
When you're in trial, you haveto be very aware of a lot of
stuff that's going on in thecourtroom.
If you want to be a good lawyeryou have to get a sense of
what's going on over there inthe jury box, what's going on in
(21:29):
the witness box, what's goingon with the judge.
And having that kind ofspecific focus was helped by my
practice a lot, being able toremember what somebody said so
that if they're saying somethingdifferent now In trial work.
It helped a lot.
But even in the practice oftalking to the clients in the
(21:53):
office in the interviews, trustthat was built came quickly.
When you are representingindigent folks and they're not
paying you, they immediatelyhave a sense that you're not
really on their side becausethey're not paying you.
(22:14):
And a lot of times they'll say,hey, if I gave you $30 or $50
or $100, would you be able to bea better lawyer for me?
You have to be able to getthrough that initial distrust
and build a relationship.
And again that goes back tolistening and being authentic
and being truthful and beingable to give bad news in a way
(22:38):
that can be digested, so all ofthat comes with meditation
practice.
John Moir (22:45):
Was it hard to tie in Buddhism and Christianity?
Bob Martin (22:50):
My Christianity was very Jesus-focused.
I never spend a lot of timeexcept for the stories deeply
into the Old Testament, butdon't see that there's a hair's
breadth of difference betweenthe teachings of Jesus and the
teachings of Lao Tzu.
(23:11):
It might seem heretical.
Honestly and authentically, Ireally think that there are some
indications, and there's somegreat books called the Lost
Years of Jesus Christ that makea strong case that Jesus
traveled in India and up toTibet and believe that because
(23:32):
when he came back he taughtBuddhism.
That's what he taught.
All of his teachings areBuddhist teachings.
I'm not saying that he wasn'tdivinely inspired.
That's above my pay grade, Idon't know but it certainly is
synchronistic.
John Moir (23:54):
Is there room within the legal profession or in the
courts to speak from the heart?
Is that something lawyers learn?
Bob Martin (24:03):
The best criminal defense attorneys are heartfelt.
You wouldn't think so.
It seems like it'scounterintuitive, but it's not.
They really passionately.
That's why they relate to ajury so well.
They are able to representtheir clients because they are
(24:25):
truly heartfelt and passionateabout what they do.
There is room for it.
There are those who think thatit's all about fighting and
advocacy and the like, but it'sreally about finding a common
ground.
John Moir (24:39):
So it's not something that's formally taught in your
meditation or mindfulness.
Just to one big question canyou tell me a little bit more
about the book that you have?
What's it cover?
Bob Martin (24:53):
I grew up as an atheist, then a Taoist, then a
Buddhist and a lover of Jesus,and so that's where I am, but
with no real Bible training.
And I get to North Carolina,wind up divorcing my first wife
and opening a little sub shophere by the university, and fall
in love with this woman, connie, who worked side by side with
(25:17):
me to open that restaurant andthen ran my law office and now
runs my life and we got marriedand she is a Bible literalist.
She believes in Adam and Eveand the Garden of Eden and
Noah's Ark.
That these are historical facts.
And so you would say how doesit come to be that I would find
(25:41):
such a woman attractive?
But in Buddhism we have a worda bodhisattva.
She is a bodhisattva.
A bodhisattva is a saint.
She is a bodhisattva.
A bodhisattva is a saint.
In Buddhism, a bodhisattva issomeone that chooses to cross
over into nirvana so that theycan stay in the trouble, to help
(26:02):
others get there.
If you think what a givingnature that would be, that is
who she is, okay.
John Moir (26:10):
I was wondering where the word came from.
Yeah, and that that is who sheis.
Bob Martin (26:12):
Okay, the word came from, and that's really who she
is.
She's just a wonderful giving,loving, very detailed, and I
need that because I'm a bigpicture person.
But it was impossible for us totalk about our cosmologies, our
belief systems.
She would feel that I wasimposing and telling her things
(26:35):
like the world is only 4,000years old and I quickly learned
not to say how do you accountfor dinosaurs?
She goes, bob, this works forme, it's what I grew up with.
It's what I grew up with.
I'm very happy with the way Ilive my life, and so that was it
.
(27:03):
But Taoism and seminal main bookof Taoism is called the Tao Te
Ching, which means the classicalbook of the way of virtue.
Tao means the way, and I wouldread it and as a devotional, I
always have, I always do, it'spart of my practice, and I would
say there's nothing differentabout this than what she
believes.
She believes in humility.
Jesus washed the feet of hisdisciples.
(27:25):
This is what is taught, and Istarted looking at some of the
couplets in the Tao Te Ching andsaying how could I put this in
Christian terms?
How could I say the same thingin a biblical reference?
Google, because you can ask it.
(27:48):
What does the Bible have to sayabout humility?
And it'll give you 20, 30 sitesand I would read through them
until I found one that was righton point and I'd grab it.
And then it was just a matter ofadjusting the rhythm and the
rhyme so that it took the samefeel as the Tao Te Ching without
(28:09):
using the same words, and I'dfinish one of the chapters and
then I'd say can I read this toyou?
And I'd read it.
She goes where did you get thatfrom?
And I said I got it from thisother day.
Let me see.
So she'd read it.
She says how did you get thatfrom this?
I said it took a little work.
And she goes wow, that's reallygood, I like that.
(28:32):
And so that was my motivation.
I did another chapter.
Finally, I did all 81 chaptersand she was always waiting.
She said read me another one,read me another one.
And at one point she finallysaid to me she said, bob, I've
been going to church all my lifeand no preacher has ever
(28:53):
explained Jesus to me this well,and now I understand Jesus like
I never have before.
And I said, wow, if that has aneffect like you maybe it says a
lot, maybe I can get itpublished, and so Kendall Hunt
picked it up and traditionallypublished it, and I'm just so
(29:13):
excited about it.
John Moir (29:15):
It intrigues me, to tell you the truth, and I wasn't
brought up, despite my parents'efforts of the church.
But I'm always open to justother ways of looking at similar
things, and so I'll take a lookat that.
Bob Martin (29:32):
Would you like me to read a passage, A short one
just so we have a taste.
They're all short.
They're all short.
They're all a half a page.
They're all short.
Okay, between 1 and 81.
Just to be, let's be random.
John Moir (29:45):
You're 77, right 77?
Bob Martin (29:48):
Yeah, no, I'm 74.
John Moir (29:50):
Oh, let's go for 74.
Bob Martin (29:52):
Okay, so every oh.
That's a short one.
That's good Every one of them.
I gave a title to the chapterand I found a quote from some
famous quote that I liked.
The title of this chapter isLife and Death, and the quote
came from Norman Cousins.
It says death is not thegreatest loss in life.
(30:15):
The greatest loss is what diesinside us while we live.
It's a good one.
I like this one.
Good choice, I like them all.
But here you go.
It reads this way Thou shaltnot kill.
Is that not clear?
Shalt not kill, is that notclear?
(30:35):
Perhaps there is a need forfurther definition.
Love your enemies.
Do not resist an evil person.
Do not repay anyone evil forevil Beloved, never avenge
yourselves, but leave room forthe wrath of God.
The Lord went even further.
For the wrath of God.
The Lord went even further.
He counseled not only againstdestroying the body, but also
(31:03):
not to kill another's hope,spirit or faith.
People lived their livesfearing death.
Would it not be better to livelife, loving life?
In God's creation there's atime to live and a time to die.
Thus God appointed nature asthe official executioner.
To have the arrogance tosubstitute oneself for nature is
(31:23):
like a child seeking to cutwood with the tools of a master
carpenter.
All that will be left is ruinedwood and wounded hands.
John Moir (31:36):
I love it.
Bob Martin (31:38):
I love that and you can hear the biblical references
in there?
John Moir (31:42):
Yes, I can.
Bob Martin (31:43):
And get it.
And it tracks the chapter 74 ofthe Tao Te Ching pretty closely
.
John Moir (31:49):
So is this available on Amazon?
It is.
So is this available on Amazon?
It is, it is.
I'll put that in the show notesand the links and all that kind
of stuff for that.
So thank you so much for this.
I really enjoyed our talk andwhen I get the other material
done then I'll give you a shoutand I'll send you the episode.
Bob Martin (32:10):
That's wonderful.
John Moir (32:11):
Yeah.
Bob Martin (32:12):
I really enjoyed being here.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Christianity at its core believes that God created
the world and declared it good,imbuing it with his presence and
divine purpose.
This foundational beliefbeautifully aligns with animist
perspectives, which alsorecognize the spirit or life
force in all elements of nature.
Both traditions thereforeencourage a heartfelt respect
(00:41):
for the environment, viewing itas a manifestation of the divine
.
This shared value underscoresthe common ground between
Christianity and animism,deepening the respect for
creation.
Moreover, animism's emphasis oncommunity rituals and the
(01:03):
honoring of ancestors can enrichChristian practices.
These rituals offer a warmcommunal space that reinforce
the Christian values offellowship and honor for one's
forebears.
By integrating these practices,christians can deepen their
faith and strengthen theircommunity bonds, as expressed in
(01:25):
the biblical commandment tohonor your father and your
mother.
Bob Martin (01:31):
I started working as a public defender and
representing folks that couldnot afford a lawyer and I kept
seeing them go through thisrevolving door.
So it hurt me to see that itwas like a factory.
Somebody would commit a mistakeand they'd come into the system
and they would be processed andspit out and go do whatever
(01:54):
they had to do and then come outand of course there's no
support and it hurt.
John Moir (02:02):
Bob, tell me about your spiritual awakening.
I know there were big changesin your life during your
childhood your parents weren'tnecessarily the emotive kind and
then the ancestral burden thatyour family carried down from
the Bolsheviks.
And do you call them gypsies,or are they?
Bob Martin (02:20):
travelers, travelers yeah, not all Romas were
gypsies or travelers.
Some were founded, but many ofthem were Not only having
parents that immigratedthemselves.
Here in North Carolina I have alot of friends whose families
go back to the Scottish pioneersand the like and they've been
(02:41):
here for 300 years.
Their families and I thinkabout my line in America.
It goes back to when my fathergot here and then it takes a
right turn but then it doesn'tgo anywhere.
It goes back to Hungary and weknow something about that, but
there's no ancestral thing there.
So that kind of ancestraltrauma certainly follows me, but
(03:03):
it's nothing like having gonethrough the trail of tears or
having had your ancestorsenslaved for years and picked up
out of there the ancestraltrauma that some of our
marginalized folks have today.
I can't complain.
John Moir (03:21):
That's true enough, but in the moment I don't think
that we ever had that choice.
No matter how it comes to us,it's involuntary, like our
reactions to it.
Bob Martin (03:30):
I was just wondering what was the forces behind your
spiritual awakening?
I worked for Janet Reno, wholater became the attorney
general under the Clintonadministration.
I worked for her and I was partof the Crimes and Consumer
Frauds Task Force, together withthe feds, and we wound up
hitting the mob for $72 million.
(03:51):
Shortly after that I left theoffice, hung my shingle out and
I'll call him Johnny, came tovisit me and basically the
conversation was you got to bepretty good to hit us for that
much.
Would you mind if I sent yousome clients?
That's how it started.
I got to know Johnny and atthat level in Miami, the Cubans
(04:15):
and the Haitians, the Italians,colombians and the Peruvians all
were talking together at somelevel because they all assisted
on the routes.
Our deal was nothing illegal,nothing unethical.
You want a lawyer that'srespected.
That's in your best interest.
If I ever get caught doingsomething like that, it's going
(04:37):
to come back and be abused.
It worked out very well.
They were always good for theirword until his son got busted
and then there was no saying noto him.
But during that period of time Iwas going out with them a lot,
going to a lot of those chromeand glass bars and maybe doing a
lot of stuff that I shouldn'thave been doing, and it was
(04:58):
impacting my family life.
Things were spiraling downwards, so I was seeing a therapist
life.
Things were spiraling downwardsso I was seeing a therapist and
one day I was arrogant and Ithought that I couldn't fail at
anything and I decided I wasgoing to try to go into a
business that was going to makeme a million dollars.
I was going to be the richestperson.
It was great, it's wonderful.
(05:19):
It wasn't working out.
Because I wasn't working out, Ihad already paid my house off
at 32.
And I had to make a decisionwhether I was going to refinance
my house to keep this businessventure going.
So I went and I said whatshould I do?
He goes behind himself.
(05:39):
He picks up a little bag withthree Chinese coins in it,
shakes the coins, drops them onthe thing, looks at them, makes
a couple of mathematicalcalculations, draws a line,
picks them up, does it again andagain six times, until he drew
six lines.
And I'm aghast, I'm looking atthis.
I'm paying the guy 65 bucks anhour.
He's throwing coins in the mostimportant question of my life.
(06:04):
Finally, he writes down anumber out of his calculations
turns around, gets this book,opens it up to that chapter and
the title of the chapter isRetreat.
I cursed him out and I stompedout and I thought that he was a
witch doctor or something.
At least I thought he was.
So I went to the office of thebusiness and I went in and I
(06:26):
said to everybody we're closed,we're not going to make it,
we're done.
And I did not refinance myhouse and I did not put myself
into a position where I couldnot have gotten out of With my
tail between my legs.
I go back a couple of weekslater and, george, what was that
?
And he goes oh, that was the IChing.
(06:48):
Turned out that my epist wasthe English language editor for
a 72nd generation Taoist masterfrom the Shaolin Temple.
Taoism itself, that Kung Fu andTai Chi and.
Qigong and yin-yang, balance allof that.
So I said what's Taoism?
(07:08):
It interested me because myfamily was atheist and I didn't
have any kind of particularreligious background, something
I'd been searching for a longtime and here was something that
gave me a pathway to live lifein a virtuous and proper,
efficient and effective way thatdidn't require me to have to
(07:31):
believe in anything supernatural.
So I loved it, I just took toit and I studied under George
Masterny, came to Miami oftenand he had to be the happiest
man that I'd ever run into in mylife A shaman, yes.
We would play hide and seekwith him and we could never find
him.
That's just how he was.
(07:52):
He was just the most amazingfellow.
I remember one time we asked himthe question what's it like to
be you?
What goes on in your mind?
And his immediate response wasno rehearsing thoughts, no
thoughts.
And then he just giggled andwalked away and we started
thinking about that and werealized that this is somebody
(08:14):
who doesn't have anyconversation going on in their
mind.
They're just open and availableand when something happens,
they respond to it like abasketball player who's in the
zone responds to what's going onaround them.
There's no effort involved,there's just responsiveness, and
that in Taoism is known as wuwei, which means doing, not
(08:38):
doing.
The funniest thing is that wuthe word wu is also Chinese for
shaman, so there is somethingmystical about all of Taoism.
John Moir (08:48):
I know the three coins and the tossing of the
coins struck me as a veryshamanic process.
It's like divination.
Bob Martin (08:55):
I Ching was the practice that changed me.
It's one thing to study under amaster, but you have to do
practice, and every morning Iwould get up and get my coins.
I'd get three quarters andthrow them six times and write
the appropriate lines and divinethem to go to the appropriate
(09:16):
chapter and read it and overtime, what the I Ching taught me
was how to recognize the energythat is around me and be able
to understand how I could becomeeffective and efficient.
Kind of.
What I mean by that iscertainly we have all come into
times when we have a great andwonderful idea and nobody wants
(09:40):
to listen to us, right?
Yes, we've all experienced that.
The I Ching would label thattime darkening of the light.
You're too bright and you needto darken your light a bit.
It would advise you that in atime when nobody's listening to
you, it's better not to speakand use the time to work
internally so that when the timechanges and people are open to
(10:05):
your ideas, you have it alltogether so that you can make
your case clearly andauthentically.
The I Ching defines 64 pieslices of different times.
There's a time to advance, atime to retreat, a time to wait,
a time to speak, a time ofgreat progress, a time of
(10:28):
walking in mud.
There are all these differenttimes and as you practice the I
Ching, you become more familiarwith being able to quickly
recognize the time you're in andnot work against it, not try to
row your river, row your boatupstream, rather navigate it
carefully downstream, and lifebecomes easier, become happier.
John Moir (10:49):
You spoke of the recognizing the energy that is
external to you and reading fromthat.
Is there an equivalent ofreading the energy?
Bob Martin (10:56):
that's inside you.
Meditation and in Taoism a lotof the ways of becoming familiar
with the internal energy isthrough movement, like Tai Chi,
and if you've ever seen advancedTai Chi the pushing of hands,
where two people stand oppositeeach other and they feel the
(11:18):
force that goes between them.
In doing that, they get aphysical sensation of the yin
and yang forces and the balancebetween yin and yang, and they
begin to be able to thentranspose that feeling to life.
Watch your thoughts and becomedetached from them in a certain
way, so that when you becomeangry, you get to be angry and
(12:15):
express your anger at the sametime.
From a detached place, watchyourself being angry and maybe
even be giggling at it, even asyou're angry, and so it makes
you much more resilient.
And again it all goes back toeverything passes.
John Moir (12:27):
I had an experience somewhat like that.
I was a paramedic and we werenear an accident scene.
We were unable to access thecrew on scene due to the
multi-lane nature of thisroadway.
It went on and thecommunications center came back
and saying why'd you do that?
They were upset with us becausewe were multiple lanes we would
have to cross.
So we're not going to do that.
But I remember during theconversation with the comm
(12:48):
center I was seething and Ithought for sure the supervisor
is going to come and visit andtell me about my on-air manners.
And anyways, he did come by andhe did bring a recording of the
whole thing.
And when I was listening to mycommunications with the comm
center I sounded quiet andcompletely opposite to the way I
(13:09):
was feeling inside and Ithought for sure I was going to
get busted.
So I don't know if it's thesame thing, but that idea of how
we can somehow separate the two, what we're feeling and what
we're expressing it's almostlike we're two souls at once or
something.
So are there other teachingsthat kind of help contribute
towards your transformation thatyou were starting to go through
?
Bob Martin (13:28):
So when I came to North Carolina, one of the
things that transformed about methat was different was that I
became much gentler and muchmore aware the effect that I had
on folks and much more aware ofmyself and therefore able to
read others' energies.
(13:48):
And I was doing criminal law atthe time.
I started working as a publicdefender and representing folks
that could not afford a lawyerand I kept seeing them go
through this revolving door.
So it hurt me to see that itwas like a factory.
Somebody would commit a mistakeand they'd come into the system
(14:10):
and they would be processed andspit out and go do whatever
they had to do and then come outand of course, there's no
support and it hurt.
So I closed my practice and Iwent back to school and got a
social work master's degree andin that I concentrated in my
studies on positive psychologyand science.
(14:34):
When I came back I went back andreopened my law office and then
I was able to commit tolistening to my client and I was
committed to this.
I could not guarantee, ofcourse, what would happen.
It was my job to advocate fortheir best interest, but the
ultimate result is that they maygo to jail or be placed on
(14:56):
probation or get someconsequence, and no matter what
their consequence was.
It was my commitment that whenthey left my presence they will
have felt heard, listened to,that somebody stood up for them,
and that they understood whywhat was happening to them was
(15:19):
happening to them.
I didn't want them to go outwith a narrative of I'm a victim
, I've been mishandled.
It's unfair.
Even if it was unfair, let'sunderstand all the dynamics of
why was it unfair?
And since then I've seen a lotof my clients have done their
(15:39):
whatever they needed to do andhave gotten much more productive
lives, and sometimes I run intothem on the street and they
tell me what a difference thatmade to them.
That lesson that I learned onceof how important it is for a
person to be heard has stayedwith me for a while and that's a
driving force within me.
John Moir (15:59):
Did you have any insight that, what path you
might've been on when you'reyounger, I think it was recorded
that you weren't necessarilywell-liked for different reasons
.
The girls didn't care for you,so it must have been that idea
of loneliness.
I don't want to put words inyour mouth, but shame from not
that something was wrong withyou.
(16:20):
At least that's how I wouldhave thought about myself.
I've been there and I was justwondering what your thoughts are
on that, as you're movingforward on this incredible life
that you have.
Bob Martin (16:32):
Yeah, I think about that a bit.
When I was young, all the girlsin starting about second grade
I was a hefty boy.
In those days the word washusky.
I remember my mother.
I would go in with my hand inher hand into JC Penney's and in
(16:52):
her loud Latvian voice shewould go where's the husky
department?
And so all the girls called mecooties and they ran away
whenever I came near.
There are two things I thinkthat saved me.
One is that I had a friend.
I had Charlie Greenfield.
He was my friend and he stoodby me and didn't matter what
(17:17):
everybody else felt.
All the other boys, they wantedto be popular with the girls,
so they went along with it, butnot Charlie Greenfield.
And there was this one personthere who loved me.
And later on in life, when Ifinally realized how important
he was to me we were both incollege, separated by about 500
(17:39):
miles I called him in the middleof the night to tell him that,
and after he heard me go on andon with it, he said can I go
back to bed now?
But then he wrote me a letterand he wrote me a short story
about how I was in an ice creamparlor and how the cooties.
A cootie had come in the plasticgame cootie and, as I was, we
(18:02):
were fixated on each other andslowly it began to smoke and
melt into a puddle and disappearand the cootie was gone and he
was quite a friend.
And I had a friend who kepttelling me I should be a lawyer.
And he wasn't working and hewent out and got a job and he
(18:23):
earned $356, which was theentrance fee for the law school
aptitude test, and he bought amoney order in that amount and
he gave it to me.
He said you should be a lawyer,you should go take this test.
So I couldn't say no, right.
So I did surprisingly well andI got admitted to a law school
(18:45):
that took a chance on me and Igraduated eventually and John
stayed with me all through thatand two days after I was sworn
in he died.
John Moir (18:57):
Oh, my Did he have any sense that he was unwell.
Bob Martin (19:00):
No, he had been a heroin addict and all through
the time that I was in lawschool and he was going to
community college and I wasgoing, I was in law school and
he was going to communitycollege and I was going to be
Perry Mason and he was going tobe my Paul Drake.
But he stayed with me, he wasclean and then somehow he met a
girl and he decided to use andhis tolerance wasn't there
anymore and he overdosed.
(19:21):
But I have always felt thatJohn was here.
For that very particular reason.
It's given my life purpose andmeaning.
And there's just one otherthing Even though my folks were
atheists because all of theirancestors had been wiped out by
either the Bolsheviks or theNazis, my father made me go to
(19:43):
children's Bible school,children's Sunday school, to a
service.
We never studied anything but Ihad to go to because he said we
are the Madicans and you mustknow the Bible stories.
If you're going to be anAmerican you must know the Bible
stories.
So he took me all the time andI would go into Sunday school
(20:05):
class.
All of the stuff like Noah'sArk and all that stuff was kind
of Disney to me.
But there was one consistentmessage that I kept hearing in
all those Sunday schools, andthat was that there was some guy
and he was undefined I wasn'tquite exactly sure what or who
(20:25):
he was and he was out in theuniverse, somewhere.
He wasn't on the earth, butthat he loved me.
I accepted the fact that therewas this guy somewhere, who I
did not understand, that lovedme Between Charlie Greenfield
and John, and this divine beingthat loved me.
(20:50):
It gave me, I think, thestrength to challenge the
challenges.
John Moir (20:56):
Yeah, and you're referring to Jesus.
Bob Martin (20:58):
Yes.
John Moir (20:59):
I see you became a meditation teacher and did you
carry that into your lawpractice?
Bob Martin (21:05):
Yes, certainly I did not.
Meditation teaching so much asmy practice.
When you're in trial, you haveto be very aware of a lot of
stuff that's going on in thecourtroom.
If you want to be a good lawyeryou have to get a sense of
what's going on over there inthe jury box, what's going on in
(21:29):
the witness box, what's goingon with the judge.
And having that kind ofspecific focus was helped by my
practice a lot, being able toremember what somebody said so
that if they're saying somethingdifferent now In trial work.
It helped a lot.
But even in the practice oftalking to the clients in the
(21:53):
office in the interviews, trustthat was built came quickly.
When you are representingindigent folks and they're not
paying you, they immediatelyhave a sense that you're not
really on their side becausethey're not paying you.
(22:14):
And a lot of times they'll say,hey, if I gave you $30 or $50
or $100, would you be able to bea better lawyer for me?
You have to be able to getthrough that initial distrust
and build a relationship.
And again that goes back tolistening and being authentic
and being truthful and beingable to give bad news in a way
(22:38):
that can be digested, so all ofthat comes with meditation
practice.
John Moir (22:45):
Was it hard to tie in Buddhism and Christianity?
Bob Martin (22:50):
My Christianity was very Jesus-focused.
I never spend a lot of timeexcept for the stories deeply
into the Old Testament, butdon't see that there's a hair's
breadth of difference betweenthe teachings of Jesus and the
teachings of Lao Tzu.
(23:11):
It might seem heretical.
Honestly and authentically, Ireally think that there are some
indications, and there's somegreat books called the Lost
Years of Jesus Christ that makea strong case that Jesus
traveled in India and up toTibet and believe that because
(23:32):
when he came back he taughtBuddhism.
That's what he taught.
All of his teachings areBuddhist teachings.
I'm not saying that he wasn'tdivinely inspired.
That's above my pay grade, Idon't know but it certainly is
synchronistic.
John Moir (23:54):
Is there room within the legal profession or in the
courts to speak from the heart?
Is that something lawyers learn?
Bob Martin (24:03):
The best criminal defense attorneys are heartfelt.
You wouldn't think so.
It seems like it'scounterintuitive, but it's not.
They really passionately.
That's why they relate to ajury so well.
They are able to representtheir clients because they are
(24:25):
truly heartfelt and passionateabout what they do.
There is room for it.
There are those who think thatit's all about fighting and
advocacy and the like, but it'sreally about finding a common
ground.
John Moir (24:39):
So it's not something that's formally taught in your
meditation or mindfulness.
Just to one big question canyou tell me a little bit more
about the book that you have?
What's it cover?
Bob Martin (24:53):
I grew up as an atheist, then a Taoist, then a
Buddhist and a lover of Jesus,and so that's where I am, but
with no real Bible training.
And I get to North Carolina,wind up divorcing my first wife
and opening a little sub shophere by the university, and fall
in love with this woman, connie, who worked side by side with
(25:17):
me to open that restaurant andthen ran my law office and now
runs my life and we got marriedand she is a Bible literalist.
She believes in Adam and Eveand the Garden of Eden and
Noah's Ark.
That these are historical facts.
And so you would say how doesit come to be that I would find
(25:41):
such a woman attractive?
But in Buddhism we have a worda bodhisattva.
She is a bodhisattva.
A bodhisattva is a saint.
She is a bodhisattva.
A bodhisattva is a saint.
In Buddhism, a bodhisattva issomeone that chooses to cross
over into nirvana so that theycan stay in the trouble, to help
(26:02):
others get there.
If you think what a givingnature that would be, that is
who she is, okay.
John Moir (26:10):
I was wondering where the word came from.
Yeah, and that that is who sheis.
Bob Martin (26:12):
Okay, the word came from, and that's really who she
is.
She's just a wonderful giving,loving, very detailed, and I
need that because I'm a bigpicture person.
But it was impossible for us totalk about our cosmologies, our
belief systems.
She would feel that I wasimposing and telling her things
(26:35):
like the world is only 4,000years old and I quickly learned
not to say how do you accountfor dinosaurs?
She goes, bob, this works forme, it's what I grew up with.
It's what I grew up with.
I'm very happy with the way Ilive my life, and so that was it
.
(27:03):
But Taoism and seminal main bookof Taoism is called the Tao Te
Ching, which means the classicalbook of the way of virtue.
Tao means the way, and I wouldread it and as a devotional, I
always have, I always do, it'spart of my practice, and I would
say there's nothing differentabout this than what she
believes.
She believes in humility.
Jesus washed the feet of hisdisciples.
(27:25):
This is what is taught, and Istarted looking at some of the
couplets in the Tao Te Ching andsaying how could I put this in
Christian terms?
How could I say the same thingin a biblical reference?
Google, because you can ask it.
(27:48):
What does the Bible have to sayabout humility?
And it'll give you 20, 30 sitesand I would read through them
until I found one that was righton point and I'd grab it.
And then it was just a matter ofadjusting the rhythm and the
rhyme so that it took the samefeel as the Tao Te Ching without
(28:09):
using the same words, and I'dfinish one of the chapters and
then I'd say can I read this toyou?
And I'd read it.
She goes where did you get thatfrom?
And I said I got it from thisother day.
Let me see.
So she'd read it.
She says how did you get thatfrom this?
I said it took a little work.
And she goes wow, that's reallygood, I like that.
(28:32):
And so that was my motivation.
I did another chapter.
Finally, I did all 81 chaptersand she was always waiting.
She said read me another one,read me another one.
And at one point she finallysaid to me she said, bob, I've
been going to church all my lifeand no preacher has ever
(28:53):
explained Jesus to me this well,and now I understand Jesus like
I never have before.
And I said, wow, if that has aneffect like you maybe it says a
lot, maybe I can get itpublished, and so Kendall Hunt
picked it up and traditionallypublished it, and I'm just so
(29:13):
excited about it.
John Moir (29:15):
It intrigues me, to tell you the truth, and I wasn't
brought up, despite my parents'efforts of the church.
But I'm always open to justother ways of looking at similar
things, and so I'll take a lookat that.
Bob Martin (29:32):
Would you like me to read a passage, A short one
just so we have a taste.
They're all short.
They're all short.
They're all a half a page.
They're all short.
Okay, between 1 and 81.
Just to be, let's be random.
John Moir (29:45):
You're 77, right 77?
Bob Martin (29:48):
Yeah, no, I'm 74.
John Moir (29:50):
Oh, let's go for 74.
Bob Martin (29:52):
Okay, so every oh.
That's a short one.
That's good Every one of them.
I gave a title to the chapterand I found a quote from some
famous quote that I liked.
The title of this chapter isLife and Death, and the quote
came from Norman Cousins.
It says death is not thegreatest loss in life.
(30:15):
The greatest loss is what diesinside us while we live.
It's a good one.
I like this one.
Good choice, I like them all.
But here you go.
It reads this way Thou shaltnot kill.
Is that not clear?
Shalt not kill, is that notclear?
(30:35):
Perhaps there is a need forfurther definition.
Love your enemies.
Do not resist an evil person.
Do not repay anyone evil forevil Beloved, never avenge
yourselves, but leave room forthe wrath of God.
The Lord went even further.
For the wrath of God.
The Lord went even further.
He counseled not only againstdestroying the body, but also
(31:03):
not to kill another's hope,spirit or faith.
People lived their livesfearing death.
Would it not be better to livelife, loving life?
In God's creation there's atime to live and a time to die.
Thus God appointed nature asthe official executioner.
To have the arrogance tosubstitute oneself for nature is
(31:23):
like a child seeking to cutwood with the tools of a master
carpenter.
All that will be left is ruinedwood and wounded hands.
John Moir (31:36):
I love it.
Bob Martin (31:38):
I love that and you can hear the biblical references
in there?
John Moir (31:42):
Yes, I can.
Bob Martin (31:43):
And get it.
And it tracks the chapter 74 ofthe Tao Te Ching pretty closely
.
John Moir (31:49):
So is this available on Amazon?
It is.
So is this available on Amazon?
It is, it is.
I'll put that in the show notesand the links and all that kind
of stuff for that.
So thank you so much for this.
I really enjoyed our talk andwhen I get the other material
done then I'll give you a shoutand I'll send you the episode.
Bob Martin (32:10):
That's wonderful.
John Moir (32:11):
Yeah.
Bob Martin (32:12):
I really enjoyed being here.
Thank you so much for having meon.
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