May 5, 2024 • 39 mins
In this enlightening episode, a native New Yorker and urban shaman, shares his deeply personal journey into shamanism sparked by a significant loss in 1996. He recounts how a spiritual workshop helped him rediscover laughter and joy amidst grief, leading him to explore shamanism's rich practices. Tony describes the serendipity of his spiritual awakening through various workshops in New York City and the lasting connections he made there, including drum circles and mentorships that deeply influenced his path.
As an urban shaman, he finds sacredness in the bustling environment of New York City. From the robust greenery of Cypress Hills in Brooklyn to the spiritual stability he feels from Manhattan’s bedrock, Tony illustrates how the city’s natural and architectural elements contribute to his shamanic practices. He shares fascinating insights into creating sacred spaces in his apartment, where he conducts drum circles and spiritual gatherings that leave visitors with a lasting impression of peace and harmony.
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Guest Bio, here
Links to additional resources
Gay Soul book by Mark Thompson View Here:
Wikipedia: Margaret Mead
Sandara Ingerman, website
Nan Moss, website
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Foundation for Shamanic Studies: Explore here
“The Way of the Shaman” book by Michael Harner
Society for Shamanic Practice: Explore here
Connect
John@urbangriefshamans.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What I'm interested in right now, Tony, is how did
you find your way into shamanism?
What's your story?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
comfort in whatever form it may appear to me, and I
put the word out to my friends.
I said look, if there'sanything that you think might be
(00:29):
of assistance in helping memove through this process of
grief, I would really appreciateit.
And a friend of mine sent meinformation about a workshop
that was being held up at theOmega Institute, which is in
Rhinebeck, new York, insub-state New York on the Hudson
River.
It was a workshop calledHonoring Our Journey.
(00:49):
It was a spiritual workshop forgay men, and I was intrigued by
that because my experience indefining gayness prior to that
was I never associatedspirituality with gayness, and
so I checked into it and seemedright.
Was that the gentleman who aNew York City psychotherapist
(01:11):
who created this group for gaymen in the early 90s to help
them process and to deal withthe AIDS crisis.
Which seemed serendipitousabout this group?
And I attended the workshop.
It was five days and it was thefirst time in six months that I
reclaimed my ability to laugh,humor and joy.
(01:33):
It was incredible, and amongstthe reading list that was
presented to us was a bookcalled Gay Soul by Mark Thompson
, and in the book Gay Soul, markinterviewed, I think, about a
half a dozen not a half a dozenknown gay men and he asked them
pretty much the same questionsand one of them was how do they
define spirituality?
(01:54):
And they all expressed theirexperiences on their respective
spiritual path.
But quite often in the courseof this book and these
interviews, the term shamanismkept on appearing.
And my undergraduate degreeliberal arts and history I took
anthropology classes, but in the1960s the term shamanism was
(02:16):
just not used.
It was Margaret Mead, it waswitch doctors, it was medicine
men, and so I was curious whatis this shamanism everybody's
talking about in this book, inthis interview?
So I put that question out to aman that I met at this Honoring
Our Journey experience and hesaid to me he said, oh, if you
(02:37):
want to know about shamanism,you have to read Michael Hanna's
the Way of the Shaman, harner'sthe Way of the Shaman.
I picked that book up, I readit, it was inspirational, and I
finished the book.
And soon afterwards anorganization in New York City,
the Open Center, which is acenter that offered various New
Age holistic spiritual workshops.
They were hosting MichaelHarner's Foundation for Shamanic
(03:01):
Studies weekend workshop on theWay of the Shaman, and I signed
up for that and it was taughtby Sandra Engerman.
It was held in a synagogue inChelsea, new York.
It was pretty incredible.
I walked in.
There were about 80 people.
I almost walked out what am Idoing here?
But I decided to stay the course, since I had registered, and
(03:22):
after two days it just put me onmy path of continuing to
explore shamanism in many of thevarious traditions that it
exists.
From that basic introductionworkshop that Sandra Ingerman
taught, there was a six-weekfollow-up that the Open Center
was offering and that wasincredible because it provided
(03:48):
those of us and I think from the80, I think it whittled down to
about 25.
25 people signed up for thesix-week follow-up and that
allowed us to practice shamanismevery week under the guidance
of Nan Moss and David Corbin.
How much better could itpossibly get?
Sandra Ingerman, nan Moss andDavid Corbin as the three people
(04:10):
who introduced me to theshamanic path that I find myself
on.
That's the roots of my shamanicinitiation.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
When I attended a workshop called Spirits of
Nature.
I had the good fortune ofhaving it in an old schoolhouse
in the country, isolated, justsounds of birds in the trees,
crickets singing, with the windgently moving through the boughs
of the great spruce trees.
This wonderful place to learnabout nature spirits.
Tony, what was your experiencegrowing up in a large city like
(04:41):
New York?
Where is the sacredness to befound in New York City?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Thank you very much for that question.
As a native-born New Yorker, Ithink of the story of the fish
that is listening to thisconversation, amongst other fish
about.
They were talking about waterand there's all this chatter
about water and then this onefish looks at all of them and
says what's this water thatyou're talking about?
(05:08):
Because the fish who asked thatquestion embodied the water,
didn't see himself or herselfoutside of their environment.
That's how I feel about beingborn and raised in New York City
.
It's just such a part of who Iam.
But I do appreciate yourquestion because it does allow
(05:31):
me to reflect on what it waslike growing up in Brooklyn, new
York, during the years that Idid, and the neighborhood in
Brooklyn that I grew up in iscalled Cypress Hills.
Now, I don't think anyone wouldassociate a neighborhood in New
York City with the name CypressHills, but that is the
(05:55):
neighborhood that I grew up inand it's located in the corner
of Brooklyn that is right nextto Queens.
Queens actually borders it onthe east and on the north.
It became a favorite place forme to hang out because it was a
place where I used to go andsmoke cigarettes with my friends
(06:17):
.
We could not get caught as13-year-olds smoking cigarettes.
But on both sides, to the leftand to the right, are two very
large parks.
One of them is called HighlandPark and for me, growing up, it
was like a forest.
I used to go there.
They had a playground, but theyalso had these like shrubs and
(06:39):
these places where you couldmeander and be you.
I really felt like I was in thecountry.
And at the top of the park wasthe Ridgewood Reservoir, which
was a reservoir that fed variousneighborhoods of New York City
with water.
The reservoir has since closed,and what the city did is it
just allowed nature to reclaimitself.
(06:59):
So if you go there today, it'sreally incredible.
All of the natural plants justhave taken over, as is the
nature of plants.
And on the other side of thecemetery was a forest park.
You really got a very richopportunity to be in nature in a
(07:20):
very interesting way, andespecially at that time,
neighbors watched out foreverybody.
It was a real eclecticneighborhood.
It wasn't an ethnic ghetto ofone particular ethnic group or
racial group.
It was very mixed and therewere plenty opportunities to
explore and to be curious andalso to feel safe.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
As you became older and started on your path.
How do you tune into the cityspirits, or do you?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, new York City is the result of the glacial age
, and so the rock is rock thattens of thousands of years ago
existed in another part of ourplanet, up north, that the Ice
Age pushed down and created thePalisades in Manhattan.
So it's a real solid bedrockand I'm very conscious of the
(08:15):
stability that I am fortunate towalk upon and to inhabit.
I live in Manhattan.
It's surrounded by water.
We have the Hudson River to thewest and we have the East River
to the east.
So I always, quite often, tellpeople that I live on an island
off the east coast of Americaand in actuality it's true.
(08:38):
I'm very aware of the power ofwater, the power of earth, and
people think of New York City asbeing steel and concrete.
It might not have the skies ofMontana, but there's still a
wonderful sky that is available,and water and earth, and
(09:02):
certainly just not only the firebelow, but also the fire that
is generated from the occupantsof the people who live in this
city.
I remember Ken Burns'documentary about New York City.
In the very first chapter hetalked about the Dutch
settlement and how the Dutchsettled New Amsterdam as a place
(09:24):
of commerce, and New York Cityis a place of commerce, and I
was thinking about that.
Commerce basically shares itssame Latin root with community
and all of the other wonderfulwords that begin with C-O-M and
com means together.
(09:45):
So there is a real togethernessin New York City, the city of
New York.
That can be experienced, andNew Yorkers have to pay
attention and I'm very consciousof the wonderful animals that
exist in New York City pigeonsand rats and squirrels.
They're not wolves and they'renot bears and they're not eagles
(10:08):
, however they are.
In my personal opinion, theyare examples of thriving and
resilience.
They're like viruses andbacteria.
They adapt very well to theirenvironment and I think many of
us would benefit from having alittle pigeon or rat or squirrel
(10:32):
energy in order to help us getthrough, especially the
difficult periods that we mayexperience in our lives.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I was just thinking of the subway being full of rats
, but so many other things in it.
So, within its own environment,the place of the subway is
different than the spirit ofother places, the spirit of
Central Park.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, it's like any place, we exist upon layers.
There are so many layersbeneath our feet, but the subway
system is certainly a livingand current example of what is
underground.
The subways in London arecalled the underground.
Yeah, it's yes, as above, sobelow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I know that I think I mentioned before my boat that I
live on during the summer haswonderful spiritual power and
energy, and I know that thehouses that I lived in had
tremendous spirit.
Think of every home.
Wherever people come together,all that energy it creates, or
somehow the spirit of placedevelops.
(11:41):
And I know, as a paramedic I gointo so many different people's
homes and there's those thatyou just know have no energy, no
life or spirit, I should say nospiritual essence, and it's
reflected in the home when youwalk in and other places.
I've had ceremony and called inthe spirit of the home and it's
(12:05):
a tremendous energy.
You feel that just wells upreally quickly.
And apartment buildings are nodifferent, same for our
workplaces.
When you think of it, they'reall containers of many people,
plants and animals and thus theability to have spirit there
present and very unique isavailable.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
What's your thoughts on that?
I totally agree with you.
What's that saying about?
One's home is one's castle.
I also like to think of it asone's sanctuary.
It's of one's creation, it'swhat you bring to one's home
environment.
I'm very fortunate.
My parents they own thebuilding that I grew up in in
(12:52):
Brooklyn.
It was a five-family buildingwith two stores.
One of the stores was myfather's business.
My father was the proprietor ofa soda fountain candy store and
the other business was a barberand there were five families
and when my father went to workhe literally left our apartment
(13:15):
and went downstairs and he wasin his store from six in the
morning till about 10, 10, 1030at night.
But he was also the landlord,so if anything needed to be
addressed in his building thathe owned he was the landlord was
very accessible.
So he created a very good placefor people to live and to
(13:42):
thrive during that period of theEisenhower 1950s.
I like to think that I broughtthat into every home I've lived
in, wherever that may be.
In my current home I live inGreenwich Village and the
building was built in 1890 as atenement for immigrants, the
(14:03):
organization that pushed andprocessed the landmarking of my
neighborhood, every building andevery area.
Occupant in the building gotinformation about the building
from when it was built, wholived there originally.
So it was wonderful likereading this document about
Irish immigrants and Germanimmigrants who worked in the
(14:27):
garment industry, who was a shoerepairman, who was a laborer.
So I always like to think that,and where the apartments I'm
living in, to think that, andwhere the apartments I'm living
in, I have to remind myself thatthis was a home for a family.
I'm single, I live alone and,trust me, my home is filled with
the things that are importantto me, but I try to imagine a
(14:51):
mother, a father, maybe three orfour children living in the
same space.
But they did, and so I reallylike to think that there are
layers of harmony that exist inthis building.
And when I moved back in, I washaving the walls painted and
this was passed on to me by agentleman that I befriended and
(15:11):
he carries a lot of NativeAmerican traditions and he said
before the painters put a coatof paint on the walls, write
your affirmations on the wallsso that they will be there and
they will be protected by alayer of paint.
So underneath the painter jobin my apartment are all of these
(15:34):
affirmations how I wanted thisplace to be a harmonious,
peaceful, loving, welcomingenvironment.
I feel really fortunate.
I've been here for over 25years and I think that that is
the type of environment thatpeople experience once they pass
my apartment tour and, as Ishared with you, I conduct
(15:55):
monthly drum circles here in myapartment.
Shared with you, I conductmonthly drum circles here in my
apartment and everybody whocomes, inevitably they make some
comment about wow, what abeautiful, peaceful, really
enjoyable space you have.
But then recently somebody didask me.
They said how do you protectyour apartment from all the
other stuff that you don't wantto be to pass your front door?
(16:17):
And I thought about that and Ihave quite a few sacred objects
around my apartment which I feelprotect me and my apartment, my
space.
But I think the most importantthing is that I do not give
permission, give permission.
(16:41):
I do not give permission foranything that may cause me or
others harm to pass through myfront door.
We talk about empowering people.
We have to acknowledge thepower that we all possess.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And we could certainly build power in a home,
obviously yes.
Or in a workplace yes, or in aworkplace or in a community
where there's great camaraderie,and we certainly know all have
in every city neighborhoods thatare very little, at very dark
places.
A lot of poverty, and thatmeans that they can't be
suppressed, is what I want tosay, not poverty.
(17:13):
You can still have a richspiritual existence.
You can still have a richspiritual existence and not have
the abundance that perhapsothers have.
Now you're a healer and youhave people that come to your
apartment to do shamanic workwith.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And I know that you go to other people's home to do
work in their homes Since COVID,when things moved remotely and
then a few years ago thingsreturned.
It's interesting you talk aboutgoing to other people's homes.
There was a period where, yeah,I would be called upon and I
would just jump on the subwayand go to somebody's home,
especially for like clearings.
A lot of people would contactme or another shamanic
practitioner wanting to do aclearing.
(18:00):
They were about to move into anapartment or they had moved
into apartment and the vibrationwas, you know, kind of static
or they didn't feel at ease.
But I haven't received too manyrequests for that as of late
that's the time when I see myclient they come to my home.
I prefer that I have everythingI need at hand's reach.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Are you ever called or field to do a ritual or
ceremony in other areas of thecity?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, again, it just may be that I'm not sending that
vibration out there anymore.
You had inquired about anexperience that I had in New
York City that stood out andwhat popped into my memory was
some of us I think there werefour of us New York City every
year hosts a Halloween parade,and we decided and at that point
(18:53):
we were probably all in ourlate 50s, early 60s, so four of
us decided we would put onceremonial garb and ceremonial
mask and grab our rattles anddrums and we would march up
Sixth Avenue in the Halloweenday or night parade.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
In your regalia?
That would be a surprise.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
In our regalia and you didn't stand out because you
were walking amongst all sortsof people in their regalia.
Call them customs or whatever.
I just remember we set theintention that as we were
walking, we were going to beblessing the crowds, blessing
the city and just using thevibration of our drums and our
rattles.
Donna Hennes, a New York Cityshaman she's made it a career to
(19:44):
have rituals in the city atdifferent times.
She would put together some ofher students and people who
followed her and she would leadthe opening of the New York City
Halloween parade.
I think she had self-appointedherself as being New York City's
urban shaman and she would askthem all to dress in silver.
(20:08):
She would ask for a donation inorder to acquire the amount of
sage that she would need tosmudge the length of the parade,
and they would be the firstgroup out to smudge it Wow.
Both the path of the parade andthe hundreds of thousands of
people on both sides who arewatching it.
(20:28):
Donna's one example, and thenthere's oh God, my memory is
just shot today there's anotherwoman, and actually she used to.
She's a Reiki master and she'salso a shamanic practitioner and
she lives close to Central Parkand every day she goes to the
park and she brings bird seedsand she actually sits there with
(20:52):
her palm open and the birdsactually feed out of her hand
and quite admirable.
Yeah, look it's.
There are a lot of people wholive in this city, so you're
going to have all sorts ofpeople, and it's not just the
headlines that instill fear inpeople.
There's lots of people whoactually create inspiration to
(21:14):
celebrate the nature of the cityand the community of the city.
I neglected to mention thatwhere Greenwich Village meets
Chelsea, which is around 14thStreet, there's an area there
and it's called Gainsvoort.
It has a Dutch name, but it'squite unique because there's a
(21:38):
place where I think four or fivestreets all come together,
where this little squirt.
What I've learned throughreading and through attending
different information eventshosted by this local indigenous,
was that was a meeting place.
It was a place of commerceTribes would come from different
directions and they would meetthere to have their market.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I was wondering if there are other significant
sites that have made it throughthe years to the present.
I was thinking of how manychurches in Europe were built on
previous sites that Druids orCelts or other shamanic
communities had built oversacred wells or other features
here in New York City.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
There's none that I'm familiar with.
But New York City, especiallylow in Manhattan, did have quite
a few churches, trinity Churchbeing one of them.
For many decades Trinity Church, which is located in the Wall
Street area, was the tallestbuilding and I think
traditionally, in terms ofChristian nations, the church
(22:42):
was always supposed to be thetallest building in a city or in
a town, and so if you look atprints or drawings of early New
York City, you always seeTrinity Church's steeple
sticking up.
I was thinking about thisearlier because we're talking
about the sacredness of aparticular place, and those
churches had attached to themcemeteries, and so there were
(23:03):
quite a few cemeteries actuallyon the island of Manhattan.
Trinity Church had the churchcemetery Actually, I believe
Alexander Hamilton and his wifeare buried there and plus other
notable founding fathers fromthe New York City area and then
when that cemetery overflowedand there was no more room for
(23:25):
it, they built the uptown branchof the cemetery and if you look
at old maps of New York City,say from 1800 to 1825, you'll
see that Trinity Church'scemetery.
In the mid-19th century they,trusting that, they dug up the
(23:47):
bodies in order as the city, theisland, expanded and they were
building brownstone andresidences and they dug up the
bodies and relocated them andnow it's a park and it has a
swimming pool and it has variousball courts and so forth.
(24:08):
But every time I pass there I'mvery conscious of the fact that
this was their last place ofrest.
What I'm trying to say is inany urban situation, I think
it's really important for peopleto pay attention to where they
are and what's below the surfaceand what's above, so below, and
(24:29):
just to pay attention to one'sphysical environment, because
layered beyond the physicalenvironment is also the unknown
environment.
I get a big kick out of it.
Whenever I walk past that blockwith a friend, I say this used
to be a cemetery.
And they go, what?
These beautiful brownstones andthis park for kids to play with
(24:51):
?
And I said, yeah, I said deadpeople were buried here.
I think it was about 20 yearsago.
They were doing some excavationdowntown and they found the
African burial where Africanslaves were buried and they
turned that into a sacred siteand they had members of the New
York African American communitythey did a ceremony of
(25:15):
remembrance.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, I often, wherever I go, when I want to
just get plugged in, I alwaysmake a mention of also inviting
the ancestors of the place, ofthis place, wherever I am, and
it's not just human, but alsothe non-human, all the trees,
everything that was here beforebefore me, before there was
(25:38):
humans walking this part of theearth, and I just feel like a
real connection comes in when Iinvite the ancestors of place to
be present with me and it givesme a boost of power, a boost of
just another presence that issupporting me.
And you're right, yeah, thecemetery thing I still am
(26:03):
thinking that was such a ballsymove because there's so much to
that and I don't think it's thesame.
But I know a lot of indigenouscultures are seeking return of
all their kin who have beenmoved to other museums and that
around the world, and they wantto bring them home and have them
(26:24):
in their own place of burialand I think that's important
work.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
And these are usually historical museums, like the
Museum of Natural History, Ithink.
They return skulls and bonesthat were in the case on display
.
They return them to the tribesfor a proper burial for them.
I think I know of two Jewishcemeteries that are literally
scratched in these littlecorners of a street, a
(26:52):
pedestrian street that peoplepass on their way to and from
living their lives.
But there is a fence andthere's a sign, and if you stop
and look at the sign, you say,oh my God, on the other side of
this fence is a cemetery, god,on the other side of this fence
is a cemetery where people fromthe 1700s, 1800s were buried.
(27:16):
It's a good reminder of we areexisting on the shoulders of
what was before.
There's something very excitingabout that.
Quite often I remind my clients, especially ones who are
struggling with feelingconnected.
Quite quite often the issue isoh, I feel disconnected, I don't
feel I could relate, and it'swait a minute.
There's so much to feelconnected to if remove whatever
(27:37):
barriers may be in your way thatprevents you from feeling that
connection, whether it befeeling connected to the what's
above, in this incredible solarsystem that we occupy, or in our
immediate environment of wherewe live.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
For individuals who might be just starting out on a
path, of a shamanic path, wouldfinding sacred places in the
city itself be difficult?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
No, not at all.
It's really quite easy.
You could find a tree that youconnect to.
You could take a stroll over tothe Hudson River.
The Hudson River is one of themightiest rivers, in my opinion,
that exists in the world.
It's very wide and it starts upin the Adirondacks top of some
mountain Again, a little creekthat flows into a stream, that
(28:25):
flows into the river that getswide.
It's really.
I've traveled a lot and I'veseen lots of.
I've seen lots of rivers in thecities of the world and I'm
always in awe of the HudsonRiver.
I forget what the Indian nameis, but it I think it translates
something, meaning the riverthat flows in two directions and
(28:46):
there's a time of day where thewater actually becomes brackish
.
It has the seawater from theocean and the freshwater from
the river and it gets verybrackish.
And I'm so happy, over probablythe past 20 years, that the
city has started to reclaim,cleaning up.
We've seen wells in the HudsonRiver and porpoises and they're
(29:10):
once again seeding oysters.
So the city is seeding theriver with these and again with
the intention of reclaiming it.
There's a real strong effort.
So, yes, there are a lot ofplaces where one could go to one
of the cemeteries TrinityCemetery is open, also St Paul's
Church.
So there are a lot of places,opportunities, where one could
(29:33):
just really connect with thespirit of the place in order to
grow one's shamanic spiritualpractice.
A friend of mine, nancy, shehas a sacred tree in Central
Park.
She's a shamanic teacher, ashamanic practitioner, and she
brings her students quite oftenthere and they'll do ceremony
around the tree.
(29:53):
I know I shared with you theNative American ceremonial dance
called the Naraya, the dancefor all people, which was
reclaimed around 1991, 1990.
It's a ceremonial dance whichoriginated in the Great Basin
region of the United States butit went underground for a
(30:15):
century.
The legend was that a group ofwhite folks dressed as Indian
would bring back the dance.
And that's exactly whathappened.
A group of men and women whowere following Native American
traditions, pipe ceremonies, andthey would meet during the full
moon.
They invited an elder from theGreat Basin and he intuitively
(30:38):
felt that there was a purposeand a reason for him to be
invited.
So he flew to New York City, heattended this full moon
ceremony, he met with the peopleand they brought back the dance
for the first time after acentury, and it was held in St
John the Divine Cathedral on110th Street in Manhattan and it
(30:58):
was danced there for probablyfive, six, seven years.
The reason I raise it is theywould meet and the dance was
always held around the wintersolstice, always in December.
So they would like to gathersix months later around the
summer solstice and they wouldmeet in Central Park and they
(31:18):
would meet at a place in CentralPark called Falcon Crest.
It's a rise in Central Parkaround 72nd Street.
They would hold summer solsticeceremony there and they would
including the pipe would bepassed around, the pipe carriers
would share their medicine,their pipe medicine, and there
would be drumming and they wouldbe singing and there would be
(31:40):
potluck and it was absolutelywonderful.
I'm of the belief that the morepeople are living a life that
is in their intention is tocreate, to whatever degree that
they're capable, a balanced,harmonious life.
I have to, deep within my heart, believe that it does have an
(32:02):
impact and an effect on whereone lives.
I just think it's very.
It just ripples out, it justripples.
And I could see how peoplerespond to me just by how I
respond to them.
The automatic in this serviceindustry culture that we live in
(32:22):
is for whenever you go into anyplace, you're greeted, and
usually with a hello, good day.
How are you and the person whois saying that may expect or not
expect a response from you.
What they don't expect is youto ask how are you doing today?
And it really takes them.
(32:44):
How are you doing today?
And it really takes them.
I always notice it to beacknowledged and, again, it's
paying attention and it'sacknowledging that we share a
space, we share a place.
Last week we celebrated EarthDay.
We share a planet with amultitude of living sentient
(33:04):
beings in every form that theymay take, and to interact with
them respectfully andrespectfully but this is where
my Buddhist tradition comes inbut without any expectation of a
response or to get anythingback in return.
(33:26):
So this is where New York City,being a place of commerce, gets
turned topsy-turvy.
It's a give, don't expect toget, don't expect to get.
Just live your life in a verygiving, hot-scented place.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Tony, maybe one last question when do you see
shamanism, urban shamanism,heading in the future?
Any predictions?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
or hopes, plenty of hopes.
I hope that it continues togrow.
I've had this conversationrecently with some of the men
and women that I've had the verydear good fortune of training
with and studying with, and alsohaving his students, and we
have a sense that shamanism as aspiritual practice, things peak
(34:12):
and some of us are of theopinion that shamanism because
it's become so common in thevernacular of everybody.
I'll get requests from peopleand it's like they're requesting
a soul retrieval, like theywere ordering like a Starbucks
(34:33):
latte.
It's just I need a soulretrieval.
I'm not even sure if they knowwhat a soul retrieval is or what
the process is or what may needto take place before a soul
retrieval is actually performed.
So part of the shamanic and thisfollows a long lineage of the
shamanic path it is beingeducators to educate the
(34:57):
community, educate the community.
That is an important componentof walking this path and, yeah,
so I'm not going to predictanything, but my hope is that it
continues to grow.
Things will continue and duringthis period of maybe quietness,
(35:20):
there is an opportunity for arebirth, for a rebirth, for a
spurt of growth.
But again, I think it is myopinion that it's really
important for people to do andto take care of themselves to
whatever degree that they cantake care of themselves, and to
(35:44):
be honorable and truthful intheir interactions with all of
their relations.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah, Thank you, Tony .
It's been a fun journey in thisepisode to go along with you on
.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Thank you.
Thank you, I really appreciateyou reaching out to me and the
opportunity to give it somethought.
What I'm interested in right now, Tony, is how did
you find your way into shamanism?
What's your story?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
comfort in whatever form it may appear to me, and I
put the word out to my friends.
I said look, if there'sanything that you think might be
(00:29):
of assistance in helping memove through this process of
grief, I would really appreciateit.
And a friend of mine sent meinformation about a workshop
that was being held up at theOmega Institute, which is in
Rhinebeck, new York, insub-state New York on the Hudson
River.
It was a workshop calledHonoring Our Journey.
(00:49):
It was a spiritual workshop forgay men, and I was intrigued by
that because my experience indefining gayness prior to that
was I never associatedspirituality with gayness, and
so I checked into it and seemedright.
Was that the gentleman who aNew York City psychotherapist
(01:11):
who created this group for gaymen in the early 90s to help
them process and to deal withthe AIDS crisis.
Which seemed serendipitousabout this group?
And I attended the workshop.
It was five days and it was thefirst time in six months that I
reclaimed my ability to laugh,humor and joy.
(01:33):
It was incredible, and amongstthe reading list that was
presented to us was a bookcalled Gay Soul by Mark Thompson
, and in the book Gay Soul, markinterviewed, I think, about a
half a dozen not a half a dozenknown gay men and he asked them
pretty much the same questionsand one of them was how do they
define spirituality?
(01:54):
And they all expressed theirexperiences on their respective
spiritual path.
But quite often in the courseof this book and these
interviews, the term shamanismkept on appearing.
And my undergraduate degreeliberal arts and history I took
anthropology classes, but in the1960s the term shamanism was
(02:16):
just not used.
It was Margaret Mead, it waswitch doctors, it was medicine
men, and so I was curious whatis this shamanism everybody's
talking about in this book, inthis interview?
So I put that question out to aman that I met at this Honoring
Our Journey experience and hesaid to me he said, oh, if you
(02:37):
want to know about shamanism,you have to read Michael Hanna's
the Way of the Shaman, harner'sthe Way of the Shaman.
I picked that book up, I readit, it was inspirational, and I
finished the book.
And soon afterwards anorganization in New York City,
the Open Center, which is acenter that offered various New
Age holistic spiritual workshops.
They were hosting MichaelHarner's Foundation for Shamanic
(03:01):
Studies weekend workshop on theWay of the Shaman, and I signed
up for that and it was taughtby Sandra Engerman.
It was held in a synagogue inChelsea, new York.
It was pretty incredible.
I walked in.
There were about 80 people.
I almost walked out what am Idoing here?
But I decided to stay the course, since I had registered, and
(03:22):
after two days it just put me onmy path of continuing to
explore shamanism in many of thevarious traditions that it
exists.
From that basic introductionworkshop that Sandra Ingerman
taught, there was a six-weekfollow-up that the Open Center
was offering and that wasincredible because it provided
(03:48):
those of us and I think from the80, I think it whittled down to
about 25.
25 people signed up for thesix-week follow-up and that
allowed us to practice shamanismevery week under the guidance
of Nan Moss and David Corbin.
How much better could itpossibly get?
Sandra Ingerman, nan Moss andDavid Corbin as the three people
(04:10):
who introduced me to theshamanic path that I find myself
on.
That's the roots of my shamanicinitiation.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
When I attended a workshop called Spirits of
Nature.
I had the good fortune ofhaving it in an old schoolhouse
in the country, isolated, justsounds of birds in the trees,
crickets singing, with the windgently moving through the boughs
of the great spruce trees.
This wonderful place to learnabout nature spirits.
Tony, what was your experiencegrowing up in a large city like
(04:41):
New York?
Where is the sacredness to befound in New York City?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Thank you very much for that question.
As a native-born New Yorker, Ithink of the story of the fish
that is listening to thisconversation, amongst other fish
about.
They were talking about waterand there's all this chatter
about water and then this onefish looks at all of them and
says what's this water thatyou're talking about?
(05:08):
Because the fish who asked thatquestion embodied the water,
didn't see himself or herselfoutside of their environment.
That's how I feel about beingborn and raised in New York City
.
It's just such a part of who Iam.
But I do appreciate yourquestion because it does allow
(05:31):
me to reflect on what it waslike growing up in Brooklyn, new
York, during the years that Idid, and the neighborhood in
Brooklyn that I grew up in iscalled Cypress Hills.
Now, I don't think anyone wouldassociate a neighborhood in New
York City with the name CypressHills, but that is the
(05:55):
neighborhood that I grew up inand it's located in the corner
of Brooklyn that is right nextto Queens.
Queens actually borders it onthe east and on the north.
It became a favorite place forme to hang out because it was a
place where I used to go andsmoke cigarettes with my friends
(06:17):
.
We could not get caught as13-year-olds smoking cigarettes.
But on both sides, to the leftand to the right, are two very
large parks.
One of them is called HighlandPark and for me, growing up, it
was like a forest.
I used to go there.
They had a playground, but theyalso had these like shrubs and
(06:39):
these places where you couldmeander and be you.
I really felt like I was in thecountry.
And at the top of the park wasthe Ridgewood Reservoir, which
was a reservoir that fed variousneighborhoods of New York City
with water.
The reservoir has since closed,and what the city did is it
just allowed nature to reclaimitself.
(06:59):
So if you go there today, it'sreally incredible.
All of the natural plants justhave taken over, as is the
nature of plants.
And on the other side of thecemetery was a forest park.
You really got a very richopportunity to be in nature in a
(07:20):
very interesting way, andespecially at that time,
neighbors watched out foreverybody.
It was a real eclecticneighborhood.
It wasn't an ethnic ghetto ofone particular ethnic group or
racial group.
It was very mixed and therewere plenty opportunities to
explore and to be curious andalso to feel safe.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
As you became older and started on your path.
How do you tune into the cityspirits, or do you?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, new York City is the result of the glacial age
, and so the rock is rock thattens of thousands of years ago
existed in another part of ourplanet, up north, that the Ice
Age pushed down and created thePalisades in Manhattan.
So it's a real solid bedrockand I'm very conscious of the
(08:15):
stability that I am fortunate towalk upon and to inhabit.
I live in Manhattan.
It's surrounded by water.
We have the Hudson River to thewest and we have the East River
to the east.
So I always, quite often, tellpeople that I live on an island
off the east coast of Americaand in actuality it's true.
(08:38):
I'm very aware of the power ofwater, the power of earth, and
people think of New York City asbeing steel and concrete.
It might not have the skies ofMontana, but there's still a
wonderful sky that is available,and water and earth, and
(09:02):
certainly just not only the firebelow, but also the fire that
is generated from the occupantsof the people who live in this
city.
I remember Ken Burns'documentary about New York City.
In the very first chapter hetalked about the Dutch
settlement and how the Dutchsettled New Amsterdam as a place
(09:24):
of commerce, and New York Cityis a place of commerce, and I
was thinking about that.
Commerce basically shares itssame Latin root with community
and all of the other wonderfulwords that begin with C-O-M and
com means together.
(09:45):
So there is a real togethernessin New York City, the city of
New York.
That can be experienced, andNew Yorkers have to pay
attention and I'm very consciousof the wonderful animals that
exist in New York City pigeonsand rats and squirrels.
They're not wolves and they'renot bears and they're not eagles
(10:08):
, however they are.
In my personal opinion, theyare examples of thriving and
resilience.
They're like viruses andbacteria.
They adapt very well to theirenvironment and I think many of
us would benefit from having alittle pigeon or rat or squirrel
(10:32):
energy in order to help us getthrough, especially the
difficult periods that we mayexperience in our lives.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I was just thinking of the subway being full of rats
, but so many other things in it.
So, within its own environment,the place of the subway is
different than the spirit ofother places, the spirit of
Central Park.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, it's like any place, we exist upon layers.
There are so many layersbeneath our feet, but the subway
system is certainly a livingand current example of what is
underground.
The subways in London arecalled the underground.
Yeah, it's yes, as above, sobelow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I know that I think I mentioned before my boat that I
live on during the summer haswonderful spiritual power and
energy, and I know that thehouses that I lived in had
tremendous spirit.
Think of every home.
Wherever people come together,all that energy it creates, or
somehow the spirit of placedevelops.
(11:41):
And I know, as a paramedic I gointo so many different people's
homes and there's those thatyou just know have no energy, no
life or spirit, I should say nospiritual essence, and it's
reflected in the home when youwalk in and other places.
I've had ceremony and called inthe spirit of the home and it's
(12:05):
a tremendous energy.
You feel that just wells upreally quickly.
And apartment buildings are nodifferent, same for our
workplaces.
When you think of it, they'reall containers of many people,
plants and animals and thus theability to have spirit there
present and very unique isavailable.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
What's your thoughts on that?
I totally agree with you.
What's that saying about?
One's home is one's castle.
I also like to think of it asone's sanctuary.
It's of one's creation, it'swhat you bring to one's home
environment.
I'm very fortunate.
My parents they own thebuilding that I grew up in in
(12:52):
Brooklyn.
It was a five-family buildingwith two stores.
One of the stores was myfather's business.
My father was the proprietor ofa soda fountain candy store and
the other business was a barberand there were five families
and when my father went to workhe literally left our apartment
(13:15):
and went downstairs and he wasin his store from six in the
morning till about 10, 10, 1030at night.
But he was also the landlord,so if anything needed to be
addressed in his building thathe owned he was the landlord was
very accessible.
So he created a very good placefor people to live and to
(13:42):
thrive during that period of theEisenhower 1950s.
I like to think that I broughtthat into every home I've lived
in, wherever that may be.
In my current home I live inGreenwich Village and the
building was built in 1890 as atenement for immigrants, the
(14:03):
organization that pushed andprocessed the landmarking of my
neighborhood, every building andevery area.
Occupant in the building gotinformation about the building
from when it was built, wholived there originally.
So it was wonderful likereading this document about
Irish immigrants and Germanimmigrants who worked in the
(14:27):
garment industry, who was a shoerepairman, who was a laborer.
So I always like to think that,and where the apartments I'm
living in, to think that, andwhere the apartments I'm living
in, I have to remind myself thatthis was a home for a family.
I'm single, I live alone and,trust me, my home is filled with
the things that are importantto me, but I try to imagine a
(14:51):
mother, a father, maybe three orfour children living in the
same space.
But they did, and so I reallylike to think that there are
layers of harmony that exist inthis building.
And when I moved back in, I washaving the walls painted and
this was passed on to me by agentleman that I befriended and
(15:11):
he carries a lot of NativeAmerican traditions and he said
before the painters put a coatof paint on the walls, write
your affirmations on the wallsso that they will be there and
they will be protected by alayer of paint.
So underneath the painter jobin my apartment are all of these
(15:34):
affirmations how I wanted thisplace to be a harmonious,
peaceful, loving, welcomingenvironment.
I feel really fortunate.
I've been here for over 25years and I think that that is
the type of environment thatpeople experience once they pass
my apartment tour and, as Ishared with you, I conduct
(15:55):
monthly drum circles here in myapartment.
Shared with you, I conductmonthly drum circles here in my
apartment and everybody whocomes, inevitably they make some
comment about wow, what abeautiful, peaceful, really
enjoyable space you have.
But then recently somebody didask me.
They said how do you protectyour apartment from all the
other stuff that you don't wantto be to pass your front door?
(16:17):
And I thought about that and Ihave quite a few sacred objects
around my apartment which I feelprotect me and my apartment, my
space.
But I think the most importantthing is that I do not give
permission, give permission.
(16:41):
I do not give permission foranything that may cause me or
others harm to pass through myfront door.
We talk about empowering people.
We have to acknowledge thepower that we all possess.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And we could certainly build power in a home,
obviously yes.
Or in a workplace yes, or in aworkplace or in a community
where there's great camaraderie,and we certainly know all have
in every city neighborhoods thatare very little, at very dark
places.
A lot of poverty, and thatmeans that they can't be
suppressed, is what I want tosay, not poverty.
(17:13):
You can still have a richspiritual existence.
You can still have a richspiritual existence and not have
the abundance that perhapsothers have.
Now you're a healer and youhave people that come to your
apartment to do shamanic workwith.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And I know that you go to other people's home to do
work in their homes Since COVID,when things moved remotely and
then a few years ago thingsreturned.
It's interesting you talk aboutgoing to other people's homes.
There was a period where, yeah,I would be called upon and I
would just jump on the subwayand go to somebody's home,
especially for like clearings.
A lot of people would contactme or another shamanic
practitioner wanting to do aclearing.
(18:00):
They were about to move into anapartment or they had moved
into apartment and the vibrationwas, you know, kind of static
or they didn't feel at ease.
But I haven't received too manyrequests for that as of late
that's the time when I see myclient they come to my home.
I prefer that I have everythingI need at hand's reach.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Are you ever called or field to do a ritual or
ceremony in other areas of thecity?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, again, it just may be that I'm not sending that
vibration out there anymore.
You had inquired about anexperience that I had in New
York City that stood out andwhat popped into my memory was
some of us I think there werefour of us New York City every
year hosts a Halloween parade,and we decided and at that point
(18:53):
we were probably all in ourlate 50s, early 60s, so four of
us decided we would put onceremonial garb and ceremonial
mask and grab our rattles anddrums and we would march up
Sixth Avenue in the Halloweenday or night parade.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
In your regalia?
That would be a surprise.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
In our regalia and you didn't stand out because you
were walking amongst all sortsof people in their regalia.
Call them customs or whatever.
I just remember we set theintention that as we were
walking, we were going to beblessing the crowds, blessing
the city and just using thevibration of our drums and our
rattles.
Donna Hennes, a New York Cityshaman she's made it a career to
(19:44):
have rituals in the city atdifferent times.
She would put together some ofher students and people who
followed her and she would leadthe opening of the New York City
Halloween parade.
I think she had self-appointedherself as being New York City's
urban shaman and she would askthem all to dress in silver.
(20:08):
She would ask for a donation inorder to acquire the amount of
sage that she would need tosmudge the length of the parade,
and they would be the firstgroup out to smudge it Wow.
Both the path of the parade andthe hundreds of thousands of
people on both sides who arewatching it.
(20:28):
Donna's one example, and thenthere's oh God, my memory is
just shot today there's anotherwoman, and actually she used to.
She's a Reiki master and she'salso a shamanic practitioner and
she lives close to Central Parkand every day she goes to the
park and she brings bird seedsand she actually sits there with
(20:52):
her palm open and the birdsactually feed out of her hand
and quite admirable.
Yeah, look it's.
There are a lot of people wholive in this city, so you're
going to have all sorts ofpeople, and it's not just the
headlines that instill fear inpeople.
There's lots of people whoactually create inspiration to
(21:14):
celebrate the nature of the cityand the community of the city.
I neglected to mention thatwhere Greenwich Village meets
Chelsea, which is around 14thStreet, there's an area there
and it's called Gainsvoort.
It has a Dutch name, but it'squite unique because there's a
(21:38):
place where I think four or fivestreets all come together,
where this little squirt.
What I've learned throughreading and through attending
different information eventshosted by this local indigenous,
was that was a meeting place.
It was a place of commerceTribes would come from different
directions and they would meetthere to have their market.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I was wondering if there are other significant
sites that have made it throughthe years to the present.
I was thinking of how manychurches in Europe were built on
previous sites that Druids orCelts or other shamanic
communities had built oversacred wells or other features
here in New York City.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
There's none that I'm familiar with.
But New York City, especiallylow in Manhattan, did have quite
a few churches, trinity Churchbeing one of them.
For many decades Trinity Church, which is located in the Wall
Street area, was the tallestbuilding and I think
traditionally, in terms ofChristian nations, the church
(22:42):
was always supposed to be thetallest building in a city or in
a town, and so if you look atprints or drawings of early New
York City, you always seeTrinity Church's steeple
sticking up.
I was thinking about thisearlier because we're talking
about the sacredness of aparticular place, and those
churches had attached to themcemeteries, and so there were
(23:03):
quite a few cemeteries actuallyon the island of Manhattan.
Trinity Church had the churchcemetery Actually, I believe
Alexander Hamilton and his wifeare buried there and plus other
notable founding fathers fromthe New York City area and then
when that cemetery overflowedand there was no more room for
(23:25):
it, they built the uptown branchof the cemetery and if you look
at old maps of New York City,say from 1800 to 1825, you'll
see that Trinity Church'scemetery.
In the mid-19th century they,trusting that, they dug up the
(23:47):
bodies in order as the city, theisland, expanded and they were
building brownstone andresidences and they dug up the
bodies and relocated them andnow it's a park and it has a
swimming pool and it has variousball courts and so forth.
(24:08):
But every time I pass there I'mvery conscious of the fact that
this was their last place ofrest.
What I'm trying to say is inany urban situation, I think
it's really important for peopleto pay attention to where they
are and what's below the surfaceand what's above, so below, and
(24:29):
just to pay attention to one'sphysical environment, because
layered beyond the physicalenvironment is also the unknown
environment.
I get a big kick out of it.
Whenever I walk past that blockwith a friend, I say this used
to be a cemetery.
And they go, what?
These beautiful brownstones andthis park for kids to play with
(24:51):
?
And I said, yeah, I said deadpeople were buried here.
I think it was about 20 yearsago.
They were doing some excavationdowntown and they found the
African burial where Africanslaves were buried and they
turned that into a sacred siteand they had members of the New
York African American communitythey did a ceremony of
(25:15):
remembrance.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, I often, wherever I go, when I want to
just get plugged in, I alwaysmake a mention of also inviting
the ancestors of the place, ofthis place, wherever I am, and
it's not just human, but alsothe non-human, all the trees,
everything that was here beforebefore me, before there was
(25:38):
humans walking this part of theearth, and I just feel like a
real connection comes in when Iinvite the ancestors of place to
be present with me and it givesme a boost of power, a boost of
just another presence that issupporting me.
And you're right, yeah, thecemetery thing I still am
(26:03):
thinking that was such a ballsymove because there's so much to
that and I don't think it's thesame.
But I know a lot of indigenouscultures are seeking return of
all their kin who have beenmoved to other museums and that
around the world, and they wantto bring them home and have them
(26:24):
in their own place of burialand I think that's important
work.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
And these are usually historical museums, like the
Museum of Natural History, Ithink.
They return skulls and bonesthat were in the case on display
.
They return them to the tribesfor a proper burial for them.
I think I know of two Jewishcemeteries that are literally
scratched in these littlecorners of a street, a
(26:52):
pedestrian street that peoplepass on their way to and from
living their lives.
But there is a fence andthere's a sign, and if you stop
and look at the sign, you say,oh my God, on the other side of
this fence is a cemetery, god,on the other side of this fence
is a cemetery where people fromthe 1700s, 1800s were buried.
(27:16):
It's a good reminder of we areexisting on the shoulders of
what was before.
There's something very excitingabout that.
Quite often I remind my clients, especially ones who are
struggling with feelingconnected.
Quite quite often the issue isoh, I feel disconnected, I don't
feel I could relate, and it'swait a minute.
There's so much to feelconnected to if remove whatever
(27:37):
barriers may be in your way thatprevents you from feeling that
connection, whether it befeeling connected to the what's
above, in this incredible solarsystem that we occupy, or in our
immediate environment of wherewe live.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
For individuals who might be just starting out on a
path, of a shamanic path, wouldfinding sacred places in the
city itself be difficult?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
No, not at all.
It's really quite easy.
You could find a tree that youconnect to.
You could take a stroll over tothe Hudson River.
The Hudson River is one of themightiest rivers, in my opinion,
that exists in the world.
It's very wide and it starts upin the Adirondacks top of some
mountain Again, a little creekthat flows into a stream, that
(28:25):
flows into the river that getswide.
It's really.
I've traveled a lot and I'veseen lots of.
I've seen lots of rivers in thecities of the world and I'm
always in awe of the HudsonRiver.
I forget what the Indian nameis, but it I think it translates
something, meaning the riverthat flows in two directions and
(28:46):
there's a time of day where thewater actually becomes brackish
.
It has the seawater from theocean and the freshwater from
the river and it gets verybrackish.
And I'm so happy, over probablythe past 20 years, that the
city has started to reclaim,cleaning up.
We've seen wells in the HudsonRiver and porpoises and they're
(29:10):
once again seeding oysters.
So the city is seeding theriver with these and again with
the intention of reclaiming it.
There's a real strong effort.
So, yes, there are a lot ofplaces where one could go to one
of the cemeteries TrinityCemetery is open, also St Paul's
Church.
So there are a lot of places,opportunities, where one could
(29:33):
just really connect with thespirit of the place in order to
grow one's shamanic spiritualpractice.
A friend of mine, nancy, shehas a sacred tree in Central
Park.
She's a shamanic teacher, ashamanic practitioner, and she
brings her students quite oftenthere and they'll do ceremony
around the tree.
(29:53):
I know I shared with you theNative American ceremonial dance
called the Naraya, the dancefor all people, which was
reclaimed around 1991, 1990.
It's a ceremonial dance whichoriginated in the Great Basin
region of the United States butit went underground for a
(30:15):
century.
The legend was that a group ofwhite folks dressed as Indian
would bring back the dance.
And that's exactly whathappened.
A group of men and women whowere following Native American
traditions, pipe ceremonies, andthey would meet during the full
moon.
They invited an elder from theGreat Basin and he intuitively
(30:38):
felt that there was a purposeand a reason for him to be
invited.
So he flew to New York City, heattended this full moon
ceremony, he met with the peopleand they brought back the dance
for the first time after acentury, and it was held in St
John the Divine Cathedral on110th Street in Manhattan and it
(30:58):
was danced there for probablyfive, six, seven years.
The reason I raise it is theywould meet and the dance was
always held around the wintersolstice, always in December.
So they would like to gathersix months later around the
summer solstice and they wouldmeet in Central Park and they
(31:18):
would meet at a place in CentralPark called Falcon Crest.
It's a rise in Central Parkaround 72nd Street.
They would hold summer solsticeceremony there and they would
including the pipe would bepassed around, the pipe carriers
would share their medicine,their pipe medicine, and there
would be drumming and they wouldbe singing and there would be
(31:40):
potluck and it was absolutelywonderful.
I'm of the belief that the morepeople are living a life that
is in their intention is tocreate, to whatever degree that
they're capable, a balanced,harmonious life.
I have to, deep within my heart, believe that it does have an
(32:02):
impact and an effect on whereone lives.
I just think it's very.
It just ripples out, it justripples.
And I could see how peoplerespond to me just by how I
respond to them.
The automatic in this serviceindustry culture that we live in
(32:22):
is for whenever you go into anyplace, you're greeted, and
usually with a hello, good day.
How are you and the person whois saying that may expect or not
expect a response from you.
What they don't expect is youto ask how are you doing today?
And it really takes them.
(32:44):
How are you doing today?
And it really takes them.
I always notice it to beacknowledged and, again, it's
paying attention and it'sacknowledging that we share a
space, we share a place.
Last week we celebrated EarthDay.
We share a planet with amultitude of living sentient
(33:04):
beings in every form that theymay take, and to interact with
them respectfully andrespectfully but this is where
my Buddhist tradition comes inbut without any expectation of a
response or to get anythingback in return.
(33:26):
So this is where New York City,being a place of commerce, gets
turned topsy-turvy.
It's a give, don't expect toget, don't expect to get.
Just live your life in a verygiving, hot-scented place.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Tony, maybe one last question when do you see
shamanism, urban shamanism,heading in the future?
Any predictions?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
or hopes, plenty of hopes.
I hope that it continues togrow.
I've had this conversationrecently with some of the men
and women that I've had the verydear good fortune of training
with and studying with, and alsohaving his students, and we
have a sense that shamanism as aspiritual practice, things peak
(34:12):
and some of us are of theopinion that shamanism because
it's become so common in thevernacular of everybody.
I'll get requests from peopleand it's like they're requesting
a soul retrieval, like theywere ordering like a Starbucks
(34:33):
latte.
It's just I need a soulretrieval.
I'm not even sure if they knowwhat a soul retrieval is or what
the process is or what may needto take place before a soul
retrieval is actually performed.
So part of the shamanic and thisfollows a long lineage of the
shamanic path it is beingeducators to educate the
(34:57):
community, educate the community.
That is an important componentof walking this path and, yeah,
so I'm not going to predictanything, but my hope is that it
continues to grow.
Things will continue and duringthis period of maybe quietness,
(35:20):
there is an opportunity for arebirth, for a rebirth, for a
spurt of growth.
But again, I think it is myopinion that it's really
important for people to do andto take care of themselves to
whatever degree that they cantake care of themselves, and to
(35:44):
be honorable and truthful intheir interactions with all of
their relations.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah, Thank you, Tony .
It's been a fun journey in thisepisode to go along with you on
.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Thank you.
Thank you, I really appreciateyou reaching out to me and the
opportunity to give it somethought.
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