December 21, 2023 • 34 mins
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In our latest discussion, we were joined by Catherine Grey Hughes, a teacher and shaman practitioner with a deep understanding of psychopomp, the practice of guiding souls after death. Catherine shared her insights on how soul transitions affect both the living and the deceased. We talked about the reasons why some souls may stay behind and how their journey to the afterlife can bring peace and resolution.
This episode delves into a mix of ancient knowledge, cultural practices, and shamanic rituals. Catherine guided us through these topics, shedding light on the comforting rituals that help people in mourning. She explained the importance of being connected to the spiritual world for those interested in this field. We also discussed how shamanism, influenced by figures like Michael Harner, can encourage self-love, harmony with nature, and kindness in our communities. This conversation offers insights into the soul's journey, shamanic healing, and the importance of connecting with others beyond life.
Show introduction: One Drum: Stories and Ceremonies for a Planet by Richard Wagamese
🌿 Feeling stuck or spiritually disconnected?
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Foundation for Shamanic Studies: Explore here
“The Way of the Shaman” book by Michael Harner
Society for Shamanic Practice: Explore here
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John@urbangriefshamans.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Moir (00:01):
Medicine burns when touched by fire.
The smoke curls and spiralsupward and plumes of it rising,
swirling and pushing themselvesin ribbons Higher and higher,
until the smell of it becomesthe ancient aroma of blessing,
teaching and communion.
Within its fragrant cloud, youcan feel peace descend upon you.
(00:25):
There is spirit here.
You can feel it if you allow it.
That is the heart of theteaching, the allowing.
Welcome to the Urban GriefShowman's Grief protests and
stirs within us a profounddefiance against living a life
filled with numbness.
It emboldens wildness like athunderstorm, untamed and as we
(00:51):
learn, grief is the primeemotion for the soul's vitality.
Contrary to common belief,grief is teeming with life.
It resists being gentle and yetmoves us so passionately.
There can be no doubt thisemotion springs forth from the
wells of the soul.
In our podcast, we will explorethis defiance, embrace its
(01:14):
wildness and find peace withinits untamed vitality as we live
in the hustle of everyday life.
Patricia Jones is apsychotherapist and John Moyer,
a retired paramedic.
As we explore the spiritualside of grief, welcome to
(01:35):
another episode of the UrbanGrief Showman's.
I'm your host, john Moyer, andtoday we have a deeply
insightful discussion about thetraumatic skill of psychopomp
and its profound connection tothe process of grief, loss and
healing.
I'm joined by my guest who is ateacher, a traumatic
practitioner and a griever,catherine Grey Hughes, from
(01:55):
Ottawa, canada, who brings awealth of knowledge and
experience to this fascinatingtopic.
Psychopomp is derived from theGreek word meaning soul
conductor and plays a pivotalrole in helping lost, confused
or stuck souls transition fromtheir life in this world.
Catherine and I share our ownexperiences and insight into
this sacred work, shedding lighton the reasons why some souls
(02:17):
linger and the importance ofguiding them on their journey.
Join us as our discussionbegins.
Catherine Hughes (02:24):
It's nice to meet you, john.
I'm speaking about psychopompas a part of shamanism, or a
method or a healing method.
Psychopomp is actually Greek,meaning soul or conductor of
souls.
One of the aspects of the workthat I do is to conduct souls,
meaning that sometimes souls getlost, stuck or confused and
(02:48):
don't pass through from themiddle world, as they see it, to
the upper or lower worlds, ifyou want to look at it from a
free world perspective.
A lot of cultures do havepractices where they work with
souls and make sure that theirpassage goes smoothly.
My experience has been that Iknow the helping spirits that I
(03:11):
work with.
If there wasn't a need Iwouldn't see it.
I've always gone from myexperience that I do find that
there are souls, for whateverreason, for different reasons,
don't leave the middle world.
Sometimes they choose to stickaround to help their loved ones.
Sometimes they're a bitconfused because they've died
(03:32):
suddenly or have been medicatedbefore they pass.
Sometimes I've also met soulswho are afraid of moving because
of fear of judgment, dependingon their religious background.
Sometimes you have souls whoperhaps have committed suicide
in a really tough state and aresuffering and are not willing to
(03:57):
look elsewhere in order tocontinue their souls passage.
For me, it's just suchbeautiful work working with
these souls.
I've learned so much about whatthings hold people back when
they pass.
What are the things thatthey're thinking about when they
pass?
Also about their care for theirloved ones.
(04:19):
Sometimes I've met souls whohave chosen to stick around and
not follow the call to leavethis world from a soul level,
even though they've left theirbodies, because concerned about
their grieving loved ones andthey want to stay and comfort
them.
Then at some level, afterthey've been around for a while,
(04:40):
they lose the ability or theylose their way and are not able
to pass and hear that call fortheir soul to go on that next
part of their journey.
On some level that can be notso helpful for the living.
Yeah, yeah, it can affect youto their varying degrees.
(05:01):
I just want to look after youand make sure you're making good
choices in your life.
Oh, we're a lot of grandparentsthat are grandparents, ages or
things like that that arewanting to keep.
They think that it's a way forthem to look after their
descendants, whereas from myexperience, if they move and
choose to heed the call to shiftfrom this middle world into the
(05:26):
upper world or lower world,that they can actually be more
helpful in my mind.
My experience has been they canbe more helpful as ancestors.
That way, because they're well,yeah, they receive the healing
they need and the change ofperspective.
If there's a big difference,talking to spirits in the middle
(05:46):
world who still have middleworld sensibilities and issues
and considerations, it's a bitdifferent than when they move to
the upper or lower world andthey're speaking from a place of
a little bit more healing,because they receive healing
when they go to the upper orlower world, when I should say
(06:06):
that when lower world, it's inno way like what some people
would proceed as this hell orpurgatory.
It's just a different form ofwhat a lot of people think of as
heaven or it's like the upperworld and the lower world are
interconnected.
It's just like a topology asopposed to definition.
(06:27):
Yeah, A lot of cultures.
There are a lot of culturesthat see the lower world as a
beautiful place and certainlyfrom my journey, that's been my
experience, just a friend that Iwas working with in EMS.
John Moir (06:44):
her father had passed and I guess it was two years
later she had.
Can you just check on my dad tosee where he is?
I did that and found him afterjourneying to the last place
that I knew where he was, whichwas the hospital, where Bob was
just sitting there on a benchadmiring a sunset.
I sat with them looking at him.
I told him for a dead man,you're looking really good.
(07:06):
But I both had a good laugh.
My ass, if there were any lastthoughts that he wanted to pass
on to his family, said tell himthat I love them.
I said that's all I'm good, butcan you give me a little bit
more so they know that I wasspeaking with you?
And then he proceeded to giveme Information about a keepsakes
it had owned, that he wanted togo to specific individuals in
the family.
Um, that he vanished.
(07:28):
She was happy.
So you're right that often thatthere's no reason to perform
psycho pump.
Catherine Hughes (07:33):
Yeah, the not all souls that stay in the
middle world.
Mm-hmm help and and it's up tothem, they they have their own
Sovereignty, so we don't forceanybody to go anywhere.
But but some you know,sometimes in the hospitals like
I've been in experiences thatwhere the hospitals have a lot
of Spirits hanging around andI'm not sure that's super help,
(07:57):
helpful for the those that aresick in the hospital, or the
staff For that matter.
So I think one a beautifulplace for people who know how to
do psycho pump to go is thehome and the nursing homes
because, and the nursing homes,yeah, I mean find people who are
just I really have aren't notnecessarily aware that they
passed either.
(08:18):
Sometimes you have to gentlyexplain to them that they no
longer have a body and gentlyand that's I wanted to say
that's a healing in itself thatyou go, john.
You talking about your friendasking you to go help ask her
father.
It's, there's power and beautyin Someone who's who still has a
body.
You know, for lack of a way togo, incarnate, going and
(08:42):
checking up on somebody,sometimes people just need to
know that somebody cares Well,and not not for them to turn
around and leave.
John Moir (08:50):
I'd have to grief.
I guess Catherine is it's thesame for a loved one or even a
pet.
Catherine Hughes (08:55):
You know that they are well on the other side,
quite helpful and healing Ithink that you know for people
to know that their family is atpeace.
I think is really helpful forthem that their family member is
at peace.
I think that it also, on somelevel, is healing for the family
to know that person isreceiving the care that they
(09:17):
need in the Upper lower worldand are not wandering.
And for some I I have had someexperiences of people who are in
deep grief.
Where if family member isstaying around Out of care or
out of concern.
But sometimes it makes itharder for people to move on,
and not move on in a way that Iwant you to think, to forget
(09:40):
about the person who's past, butthat they feel they're stuck in
their grief.
They're having a harder timemoving through the grief.
I have had experiences wheredoing psychopop work has really
helped the person who's grieving.
You know, as you said, on thelevel that, yes, you know that
now they're at peace.
Sometimes there's there's a bitof a message that is passed
(10:03):
between them, but also there'sthere is sometimes those who
have passed can be a bit heavy,especially when there's trauma
involved in that death,sometimes hamper the living but
it doesn't come to a resolutionor it's harder to work through
it.
I guess is in my experience andthis is just based on clients
(10:25):
that I've done work with that tohelp them get to not even the
next phase, more about theprocess of grief, but to be able
to to move a little bit forwardin their grief and process it
in a different way.
John Moir (10:39):
The longing, I think, is when we have a loss, it's
not just that they're gone.
Now that they have this, thisdeep longing, and I think they
don't think of that, there's amiddle, through psychopath, to
meet up with.
They're almost a mediumship.
If I'm you say, is that youknow that?
Catherine Hughes (10:54):
Yeah, I go ahead it does like during
psychopomp work does involvemediumship to varying degrees.
Typically when I'm doingpsychopomp work I'm not looking
for evidence so much of who theperson is or how they passed.
I'm looking for a resolution ofhealing for them and
transferring them to a placewhere they get the healing.
(11:16):
You need a lot of Spheres whenthey pass that are in the middle
world, are very confused andthey're in a dream thing.
So a lot of the ones that arereally confused are not
necessarily the bestcommunicators in that way, when
they're in the middle world theyhave not gone to that place of
healing, so some of the messagesthey pass May not be the most
(11:38):
from the most healed state.
You know, sometimes they'reworried about their belongings,
everything's like that.
Oh, I've witnessed that inmediumship and other things is
that sometimes they're moreconcerned about middle-world
experiences or issues of willsor issues of business
transactions or Family dynamicsand those sorts of things is
(12:01):
sometimes that might not be ashelpful as if receiving messages
from someone who has crossedCompletely.
I do have somatic dodleexperience from Clients, that
where they keep hoping thattheir loved one will come to
them in their dreams and what Ifind is that if the spirit is in
(12:22):
the middle world, they're lesslikely to come into the dream
state of the corner or theindividual, the grieving
individual.
But if they go up to the upperworld of the lower world and
you're coming from that state,it's often not that long after
where they will show up in theperson's dreams and let them
know that they're okay, my dadhad passed last February and I
(12:47):
had no intentions of trying tolook for him.
John Moir (12:49):
I was gonna give him 12 months for checking them.
Six months after he's passingand I was aroused from sleep
peering my name being called.
I looked around and I heardonce more my name being called.
I then heard my dad's voice.
He said I made it.
It's not quite the same, but we, affirming our loved ones, do
(13:10):
try to reach out if at allpossible.
I think from my experiencethat's what happens and grieving
, I think, not having thatknowledge that their loved ones
are okay, especially if therewas trauma involved.
I think if I was somebody'sfamily and Something like that
happened and you could tell astory of what you saw or what
(13:31):
was said, and it would be bringgreat relief to the the family
pretend and share a little bitmore than you would otherwise.
Catherine Hughes (13:38):
But it is like it's a beautiful gift to be
able to help souls and I thinkit also teaches us a lot about
what happens when a person diesand what are the things that
they're thinking about, and I Ibelieve it helps when we are
Ourselves approaching death orif we have loved ones that are
(13:58):
approaching death, in how we cantreat those people and what we
can do to assist their passage.
I grew up in a An Anglicanbackground.
I'm not practicing anymore, butI was in a position where I was
sitting with a friend of minewhose mother was dying, who was
90, and she had dementia and,and and it had just progressed
(14:23):
to the point where she hadstopped eating and we were in.
I was sitting with her.
I considered a big honor to sitdead.
You're were feeful and Ihappened to be there and the
anger came in.
I'm sure had come in to issuelast rights.
I'm not on a percent sure ifit's called that in the Anglican
faith and all that it might becalled something a different,
but so the mother had beenunresponsive, though.
(14:44):
When the, when the minister camein and stood, lovely man Came
in to speak the prayers shestarted to mouth along with him,
and I could see a huge weightlifted from her.
Mm-hmm and for someone who'sreligious in that way, some of
the things that were said inthat prayer about leaving your
burdens behind.
(15:05):
Mm-hmm and being prepared tomove forward to the next, the
next phase of their life as asoul.
And and those are some of thethings that we see when we do
cycle pump work is that peopleare Worried about those who are
left behind, or they'reconcerned about their worldly
baggage or things that they feelthat they perhaps will be
(15:28):
judged for, and and I just thinkthat what a beautiful thing
that you can do, whether it'sreligious or otherwise, or
through the work that we do, tobe able to support people in
helping them make thattransition in a way that's
unburdened.
John Moir (15:44):
Katherine, would you like to explain how we do the
work of cycle pump healing?
Catherine Hughes (15:48):
Oh, yeah, no, I'd be happy to do that.
Yeah, we've talked a lot aboutwhat it is.
We haven't explained it though,have we?
Yeah, I've had be helpful.
So a cycle pod what it involvesis a middle-world journey, for
us at least in this practice.
There are other culturalpractices who would do it
differently Sometimes there I'vebeen, I've understood that
(16:10):
there are some group, there aresome different cultures that
deal a group ceremony to help acommunity member pass when
they've passed, and support thesoul on its journey, and.
But in this case what we'redoing is we're doing a
middle-world journey and we workwith helping compassionate
spirits and we're doing amiddle-world journey to that
(16:31):
soul, as you did with the womanon the side of the road.
And we're going and we'rehaving a little conversation
with them and asking them ifthey're happy, where they are
and if we can be of assistanceand we had a feel for the person
and where they are and whetherthey need help or not.
Sometimes they say, no, I don'tneed any help, and you see,
that's great and you leave thembe.
(16:51):
But if they're confused or theywant a little bit more
information, you say that youcan conduct them and then you
give them a choice if they wantto go up or down, and then you,
through a process, a shamanicprocess, you escort them and
Then you drop them at thedoorstep of the in, where
there'll be someone there tomeet them.
In the upper or lower worldthere's always someone there to
(17:14):
meet them don't always know, butthere's always someone their
familial psychopaths or otherbeings that are, or family
members that are willing to tobe there for the person, and
then you leave them, and, in mycase, the way I've been taught
Is that we then close theopening.
What we've gone through to dropthem off and then we come back
(17:37):
and it involves often a littleconversation.
I don't get too involved intheir life story as much as
possible.
Sometimes they're not able toreally communicate that,
depending on how confused theyare.
But it's really about showingcare.
I'm here to check up on you andI want to make sure you're okay
.
For some people, especiallydepending on how they pass, it's
(17:58):
really meaningful that for them.
And then I just reassure themthat they're not going to be
judged and that I'm confidentbecause of my exploration.
I'm confident that I'm takingthem to a place where they'll be
happy and they'll be able tocontinue their souls path.
John Moir (18:14):
And you know, it's really rewarding, it's beautiful
work For those inclined to dothis work, and there is a
teaching path to become apsychopath correct.
Would you like to explain wherethey might be able to receive
that kind of education?
Catherine Hughes (18:33):
There are other people out there that
teach variations at this work.
Know, when I was looking around, when I was trying to figure
out where I wanted to study andwhat I wanted to do, I found the
foundation and I spoke to me.
There's universal and nearuniversal practices, things that
Michael Harner Witnessed andexperienced and wanted to see.
What were common practicesamong shamanic peoples for for
(18:57):
supporting the dead, and Istarted studying with them and I
like it because it's veryrespectful of the soul and
there's a completion to it inthat we're we are Escorting the
soul to a place that we know isgood, that we've experienced
that, we feel good in our heart,and so for me, it's that
(19:19):
completion of the activitythat's important in.
That's a healing in itself.
I like that.
We can escort them to do thatwork and that's part of the
practice.
It's considered an advancedtraining in a way, but you only
it with the foundation.
You only need to do basicworkshop, which we call basic.
(19:40):
That's not really basic, butit's the way of the shaman where
you learn to journey, becauseyou want to have strong journey
skills in order to do this work,because you probably journey
into the middle world.
And One of the things I likeabout the also the way we teach
it is.
It's actually quite lifeaffirming, because we do a
number of journeys to, toexplore what happens to souls
when they pass.
(20:01):
And what would you might liketo, where would you might like
to go when you pass?
Because you do have some choicehere, yes, you do you have such
eyes?
what would you like?
Or or final For yourdestination to look like, what
would you like to experiencethere?
And so in the, in thepreparation for during the cycle
path work, you learn how to toexplore your own passing.
(20:26):
What would happen to you as asoul, what's possible, what
happens to souls when they pass,where do they go, what kind of
healing do they receive?
And all of that, I think forsome people is really helpful
For them to experience it ontheir own, because I've I have a
lot of people who come toworkshops who have lost somebody
(20:47):
in our grieving and they aredrawn to the work and it in a
way it puts them lying at easeabout where their loved ones are
and what they might beexperiencing.
But I've had some clients andstudents who are well into their
In 70s and 80s who found thatwork was also helpful for them
(21:08):
to lessen their anxiety overtheir passing.
Maybe they were religious atone time and are no longer and
are wondering what it would belike for them.
John Moir (21:17):
Well, it did for me.
I found the whole experienceHelping people that I knew and
just my own experience ofexploring all those different
topologies like the upper, lowerand middle worlds, and and it
and I don't know you.
After those experiences, yousomething is different.
No, you never see the world inthe same way again.
(21:39):
Why are there ankle pump work?
Catherine Hughes (21:43):
Well, I think if they start by taking a Taking
, learning to journey andlearning to be comfortable in
the spirit world a little bitmore, I really think that's
helpful because you really wantto have some agency.
I think that I encounter somepeople with a lot of built-in
fear about the spirit world, andso sometimes you need to work
(22:04):
with it a little bit for a whileto get more comfortable,
depending on people'sbackgrounds, what they've been
taught.
I Think that people have to becareful.
If they are having significantmental health issues, I think
they have to work to see if it'sa good fit for them and that's
a conversation they could havelike a teacher as well about
that if it's a good fit for them.
(22:25):
If you're in a mental oremotional crisis, I would not
recommend it, not because itnecessarily gonna cause you harm
, but I think you need to be.
I Think you need to have somestability in your life in order
to launch from there and I dohave people.
I could argue, if you're heavilygrieving, that maybe it's not
the right choice, but I woulddisagree because I just think
(22:48):
that I've had people in theworkshops who are in that
position and it's we've neverbeen helpful for them.
Yeah, I think also this worktoo is that when you enter into
these worlds and you explore,you have access to these
compassionate spirits that canhelp you to understand more
(23:08):
about the challenges you have inyour life.
And what I find is that peoplewalk in ordinary reality, this
everyday reality, with morepower and agency.
Through this experience ofworking with the helping
compassionate spirit and bylearning to explore the spirit
worlds, you have an opportunityto learn knowledge and gain a
(23:32):
wider perspective, which you canthen bring into your ordinary
life as well.
So I think you're a benefit.
Obviously, I'm a bit biased,because this is my practice.
John Moir (23:41):
Yeah, and it's the basic workshop kind of gives
everybody who takes the programenough reference and enough
experience If they take theirtime just living it, being in it
before they move on to othermore advanced workshops.
Catherine Hughes (24:00):
Yeah, very healing, and it's to think that
everything around them is spirit, that they learn that very
quickly, and in that situationthey gain a guardian spirit of
some kind, either in animal form, or in teacher form, depending
on the least one that is thereto help guide them and they can
(24:22):
count on, and so there'sprotection, ordinary life as
well as in the spirit world, andI think that's one thing that
people are looking for as wellis this idea that they have
these spiritual allies that havetheir back.
John Moir (24:35):
That's right.
Catherine Hughes (24:36):
Like.
That's the reason why Michaelstarted this in the beginning
was he felt that Westerners werewandering around.
He saw in shamanic culturesthat people had power sources,
had powerful allies of thespirit world and he realized
that in Western world peoplewere wandering around without
(24:57):
these spirit allies.
And that was really the basisof how he even started this.
To teach this work, to developthis program In the beginning
was for people to wander around,being more in soul and having
personal power.
John Moir (25:13):
Can you just enlarge Michael a little bit for
everybody who he was and justthe impact that he had on the
shamanic community?
Catherine Hughes (25:22):
Michael Harner was an anthropologist and at
the time when he was workingwith communities shamanic
communities the anthropologistswere told not to get involved
and there was a lot ofdisrespect for shamans and
medicine people that somehowthem talking to the spirit world
was that they were crazy.
(25:43):
And Michael was really curiousand wanted to talk to them and
find out a little bit more aboutthem.
He saw something different whenhe was working with them and
they said to him that if youwant to understand what we do,
you're going to have to getinvolved and you're going to
have to practice.
And so he went outside of whatwas normal in academic
(26:03):
environments by getting involvedand practicing with the
different cultures that he waswith, and then that led to him
realizing that there wassomething really missing in
Western culture and somethingthat would benefit.
And so he started exploring howto teach practices to the
(26:24):
Westerners, but not from acultural point of view, but more
from a methodology.
And so he started teaching andthe foundations was set up
around 1979 and it's been goingever since their branches all
over the world, and really theworkshop that we teach the way
of the shaman is what hedeveloped over time and it's
(26:49):
basically the same workshop thathe taught back then Of
Westerners, understand moreabout what shamanic cultures
were all about and what were thebenefits there, and also how
could we expand our ability toheal and be more respectful of
our neighbors and the planet.
(27:12):
And he got to know manydifferent people in different
cultures and often he took notesor would take down those
teachings and he has a largebody of knowledge at the
foundation, which is anon-profit, where they're
keeping that knowledge, andsometimes what happens is in
(27:32):
culture people have lost theirpractices.
They can go to the foundationand see if they have anything
written down from Michael, fromhis research or others, and then
he returns and it's happenedwhere they've been practices
nobody taught it to follow, andthe foundation also shamans in
certain cultures where, ifwithout that financial support,
(27:54):
they wouldn't be able to teachthe practices and they may be
the last of their lineage.
And so there are a number ofindividuals that the foundation
supports in order for them toteach people in their culture
their practices.
But that was a different timeand now we have to be really
careful about culturalappropriation, and it's not.
We don't take it lightly at thefoundation and I certainly
(28:16):
don't take it lightly, and sothere has been a real effort
over the years to make sure thatif there is a cultural practice
that we reference, that it'sreferenced and it's not taught,
unless it was something that wasgiven freely or shared freely,
and so that's been somethingthat over time has changed with
(28:38):
the foundation as well.
But Michael's legacy some wouldargue that he reintroduced
shamanism to the West, to alarger audience, and has led to
a resurgence of interest inshamanism throughout the world.
And hopefully, I hope, morerespect for those practices in
(28:59):
cultures from a Western point ofview, to be offering more
respect.
John Moir (29:03):
Yeah, and an extension to that would be more
respect for all that's living,all that is, and we certainly
need to have an Earth viewperspective now right.
Catherine Hughes (29:14):
Yeah, if you've engaged in journey to a
tree or danced a tree, you'reless likely to think.
You're going to think twicebefore you cut it down for
aesthetic reasons and for pulpand paper.
Or if you've journeyed to theriver and found out what its
needs are, you're going tohopefully treat that river with
(29:35):
different kind of respect thanperhaps we've been.
I speak for myself, from aWestern point of view, of how
we've been raised.
I certainly know when I was notraised with this type of world
view.
John Moir (29:46):
Diah has a kid and I find that for me, what the
shamanism has taught me is thatthe need to love oneself greatly
, and when you can do that, thenit makes it so much easier to
love other things just asgreatly, even though you don't
know them or know what it is,but that respect and love and
caring goes out and compassiongoes out to all things.
Catherine Hughes (30:10):
Yeah, to the best of your ability, we're
still human and unfortunate Forme, it's like the Western habits
die hard and so it'sincremental.
I find that often our innerlife changes faster than our
outer life, and so some of thethings that you'd like to make
changes.
You've seen the light, in a way, you've learned something, but
(30:32):
then it becomes the action ofhow do you shape your
consumerism or your way ofwalking in this world in order
to match what you've learned,and for me that's been a
challenge, but there has beenchange, though.
John Moir (30:49):
Rathen, oh absolutely .
Catherine Hughes (30:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm very cognizant of the lackof perfection.
You know that we do our best.
We do our best.
It's oh when you know betteryou do better, that's right and
I absolutely always said thatwhen you know better, you do
better, and it's just a constantsort of growth in that when you
(31:15):
know better, you do better.
John Moir (31:17):
Let's leave it at that note, and I just like to
say that a lot of what Catherinehas referenced as well, as I
feel like to get in touch withher later on, I check the show
notes and all that informationthat you probably be looking for
will be in the show notes thatwill follow this podcast.
Any last words, catherine, youdid pretty well so far.
Catherine Hughes (31:38):
Thank you.
It's a huge topic and I just Ithink what I'd like to leave
with is that I do feel that itis better for the living, for
our ancestor to be at peace,wherever they are, that I think
that that is something that isbeneficial for your descendants.
So, whatever you can do to beat peace, whatever you can do to
(32:02):
help your ancestors who'vepassed to be at peace, I think
it's well worth the effort.
John Moir (32:07):
I couldn't agree more .
Thank you for joining us intothe world of Shamanism and its
(33:00):
connection to grief, healing andspiritual growth.
If you enjoyed thisconversation be sure to
subscribe to the.
Urban Grief Shams.
So you never miss an episode,and if you have any questions or
would like to explore thistopic further, please reach out
to us with comments and supportin the world to us.
Until next time, may you findgrace and insight into your own
(33:22):
spiritual journey.
Thank you, thank you.
Medicine burns when touched by fire.
The smoke curls and spiralsupward and plumes of it rising,
swirling and pushing themselvesin ribbons Higher and higher,
until the smell of it becomesthe ancient aroma of blessing,
teaching and communion.
Within its fragrant cloud, youcan feel peace descend upon you.
(00:25):
There is spirit here.
You can feel it if you allow it.
That is the heart of theteaching, the allowing.
Welcome to the Urban GriefShowman's Grief protests and
stirs within us a profounddefiance against living a life
filled with numbness.
It emboldens wildness like athunderstorm, untamed and as we
(00:51):
learn, grief is the primeemotion for the soul's vitality.
Contrary to common belief,grief is teeming with life.
It resists being gentle and yetmoves us so passionately.
There can be no doubt thisemotion springs forth from the
wells of the soul.
In our podcast, we will explorethis defiance, embrace its
(01:14):
wildness and find peace withinits untamed vitality as we live
in the hustle of everyday life.
Patricia Jones is apsychotherapist and John Moyer,
a retired paramedic.
As we explore the spiritualside of grief, welcome to
(01:35):
another episode of the UrbanGrief Showman's.
I'm your host, john Moyer, andtoday we have a deeply
insightful discussion about thetraumatic skill of psychopomp
and its profound connection tothe process of grief, loss and
healing.
I'm joined by my guest who is ateacher, a traumatic
practitioner and a griever,catherine Grey Hughes, from
(01:55):
Ottawa, canada, who brings awealth of knowledge and
experience to this fascinatingtopic.
Psychopomp is derived from theGreek word meaning soul
conductor and plays a pivotalrole in helping lost, confused
or stuck souls transition fromtheir life in this world.
Catherine and I share our ownexperiences and insight into
this sacred work, shedding lighton the reasons why some souls
(02:17):
linger and the importance ofguiding them on their journey.
Join us as our discussionbegins.
Catherine Hughes (02:24):
It's nice to meet you, john.
I'm speaking about psychopompas a part of shamanism, or a
method or a healing method.
Psychopomp is actually Greek,meaning soul or conductor of
souls.
One of the aspects of the workthat I do is to conduct souls,
meaning that sometimes souls getlost, stuck or confused and
(02:48):
don't pass through from themiddle world, as they see it, to
the upper or lower worlds, ifyou want to look at it from a
free world perspective.
A lot of cultures do havepractices where they work with
souls and make sure that theirpassage goes smoothly.
My experience has been that Iknow the helping spirits that I
(03:11):
work with.
If there wasn't a need Iwouldn't see it.
I've always gone from myexperience that I do find that
there are souls, for whateverreason, for different reasons,
don't leave the middle world.
Sometimes they choose to stickaround to help their loved ones.
Sometimes they're a bitconfused because they've died
(03:32):
suddenly or have been medicatedbefore they pass.
Sometimes I've also met soulswho are afraid of moving because
of fear of judgment, dependingon their religious background.
Sometimes you have souls whoperhaps have committed suicide
in a really tough state and aresuffering and are not willing to
(03:57):
look elsewhere in order tocontinue their souls passage.
For me, it's just suchbeautiful work working with
these souls.
I've learned so much about whatthings hold people back when
they pass.
What are the things thatthey're thinking about when they
pass?
Also about their care for theirloved ones.
(04:19):
Sometimes I've met souls whohave chosen to stick around and
not follow the call to leavethis world from a soul level,
even though they've left theirbodies, because concerned about
their grieving loved ones andthey want to stay and comfort
them.
Then at some level, afterthey've been around for a while,
(04:40):
they lose the ability or theylose their way and are not able
to pass and hear that call fortheir soul to go on that next
part of their journey.
On some level that can be notso helpful for the living.
Yeah, yeah, it can affect youto their varying degrees.
(05:01):
I just want to look after youand make sure you're making good
choices in your life.
Oh, we're a lot of grandparentsthat are grandparents, ages or
things like that that arewanting to keep.
They think that it's a way forthem to look after their
descendants, whereas from myexperience, if they move and
choose to heed the call to shiftfrom this middle world into the
(05:26):
upper world or lower world,that they can actually be more
helpful in my mind.
My experience has been they canbe more helpful as ancestors.
That way, because they're well,yeah, they receive the healing
they need and the change ofperspective.
If there's a big difference,talking to spirits in the middle
(05:46):
world who still have middleworld sensibilities and issues
and considerations, it's a bitdifferent than when they move to
the upper or lower world andthey're speaking from a place of
a little bit more healing,because they receive healing
when they go to the upper orlower world, when I should say
(06:06):
that when lower world, it's inno way like what some people
would proceed as this hell orpurgatory.
It's just a different form ofwhat a lot of people think of as
heaven or it's like the upperworld and the lower world are
interconnected.
It's just like a topology asopposed to definition.
(06:27):
Yeah, A lot of cultures.
There are a lot of culturesthat see the lower world as a
beautiful place and certainlyfrom my journey, that's been my
experience, just a friend that Iwas working with in EMS.
John Moir (06:44):
her father had passed and I guess it was two years
later she had.
Can you just check on my dad tosee where he is?
I did that and found him afterjourneying to the last place
that I knew where he was, whichwas the hospital, where Bob was
just sitting there on a benchadmiring a sunset.
I sat with them looking at him.
I told him for a dead man,you're looking really good.
(07:06):
But I both had a good laugh.
My ass, if there were any lastthoughts that he wanted to pass
on to his family, said tell himthat I love them.
I said that's all I'm good, butcan you give me a little bit
more so they know that I wasspeaking with you?
And then he proceeded to giveme Information about a keepsakes
it had owned, that he wanted togo to specific individuals in
the family.
Um, that he vanished.
(07:28):
She was happy.
So you're right that often thatthere's no reason to perform
psycho pump.
Catherine Hughes (07:33):
Yeah, the not all souls that stay in the
middle world.
Mm-hmm help and and it's up tothem, they they have their own
Sovereignty, so we don't forceanybody to go anywhere.
But but some you know,sometimes in the hospitals like
I've been in experiences thatwhere the hospitals have a lot
of Spirits hanging around andI'm not sure that's super help,
(07:57):
helpful for the those that aresick in the hospital, or the
staff For that matter.
So I think one a beautifulplace for people who know how to
do psycho pump to go is thehome and the nursing homes
because, and the nursing homes,yeah, I mean find people who are
just I really have aren't notnecessarily aware that they
passed either.
(08:18):
Sometimes you have to gentlyexplain to them that they no
longer have a body and gentlyand that's I wanted to say
that's a healing in itself thatyou go, john.
You talking about your friendasking you to go help ask her
father.
It's, there's power and beautyin Someone who's who still has a
body.
You know, for lack of a way togo, incarnate, going and
(08:42):
checking up on somebody,sometimes people just need to
know that somebody cares Well,and not not for them to turn
around and leave.
John Moir (08:50):
I'd have to grief.
I guess Catherine is it's thesame for a loved one or even a
pet.
Catherine Hughes (08:55):
You know that they are well on the other side,
quite helpful and healing Ithink that you know for people
to know that their family is atpeace.
I think is really helpful forthem that their family member is
at peace.
I think that it also, on somelevel, is healing for the family
to know that person isreceiving the care that they
(09:17):
need in the Upper lower worldand are not wandering.
And for some I I have had someexperiences of people who are in
deep grief.
Where if family member isstaying around Out of care or
out of concern.
But sometimes it makes itharder for people to move on,
and not move on in a way that Iwant you to think, to forget
(09:40):
about the person who's past, butthat they feel they're stuck in
their grief.
They're having a harder timemoving through the grief.
I have had experiences wheredoing psychopop work has really
helped the person who's grieving.
You know, as you said, on thelevel that, yes, you know that
now they're at peace.
Sometimes there's there's a bitof a message that is passed
(10:03):
between them, but also there'sthere is sometimes those who
have passed can be a bit heavy,especially when there's trauma
involved in that death,sometimes hamper the living but
it doesn't come to a resolutionor it's harder to work through
it.
I guess is in my experience andthis is just based on clients
(10:25):
that I've done work with that tohelp them get to not even the
next phase, more about theprocess of grief, but to be able
to to move a little bit forwardin their grief and process it
in a different way.
John Moir (10:39):
The longing, I think, is when we have a loss, it's
not just that they're gone.
Now that they have this, thisdeep longing, and I think they
don't think of that, there's amiddle, through psychopath, to
meet up with.
They're almost a mediumship.
If I'm you say, is that youknow that?
Catherine Hughes (10:54):
Yeah, I go ahead it does like during
psychopomp work does involvemediumship to varying degrees.
Typically when I'm doingpsychopomp work I'm not looking
for evidence so much of who theperson is or how they passed.
I'm looking for a resolution ofhealing for them and
transferring them to a placewhere they get the healing.
(11:16):
You need a lot of Spheres whenthey pass that are in the middle
world, are very confused andthey're in a dream thing.
So a lot of the ones that arereally confused are not
necessarily the bestcommunicators in that way, when
they're in the middle world theyhave not gone to that place of
healing, so some of the messagesthey pass May not be the most
(11:38):
from the most healed state.
You know, sometimes they'reworried about their belongings,
everything's like that.
Oh, I've witnessed that inmediumship and other things is
that sometimes they're moreconcerned about middle-world
experiences or issues of willsor issues of business
transactions or Family dynamicsand those sorts of things is
(12:01):
sometimes that might not be ashelpful as if receiving messages
from someone who has crossedCompletely.
I do have somatic dodleexperience from Clients, that
where they keep hoping thattheir loved one will come to
them in their dreams and what Ifind is that if the spirit is in
(12:22):
the middle world, they're lesslikely to come into the dream
state of the corner or theindividual, the grieving
individual.
But if they go up to the upperworld of the lower world and
you're coming from that state,it's often not that long after
where they will show up in theperson's dreams and let them
know that they're okay, my dadhad passed last February and I
(12:47):
had no intentions of trying tolook for him.
John Moir (12:49):
I was gonna give him 12 months for checking them.
Six months after he's passingand I was aroused from sleep
peering my name being called.
I looked around and I heardonce more my name being called.
I then heard my dad's voice.
He said I made it.
It's not quite the same, but we, affirming our loved ones, do
(13:10):
try to reach out if at allpossible.
I think from my experiencethat's what happens and grieving
, I think, not having thatknowledge that their loved ones
are okay, especially if therewas trauma involved.
I think if I was somebody'sfamily and Something like that
happened and you could tell astory of what you saw or what
(13:31):
was said, and it would be bringgreat relief to the the family
pretend and share a little bitmore than you would otherwise.
Catherine Hughes (13:38):
But it is like it's a beautiful gift to be
able to help souls and I thinkit also teaches us a lot about
what happens when a person diesand what are the things that
they're thinking about, and I Ibelieve it helps when we are
Ourselves approaching death orif we have loved ones that are
(13:58):
approaching death, in how we cantreat those people and what we
can do to assist their passage.
I grew up in a An Anglicanbackground.
I'm not practicing anymore, butI was in a position where I was
sitting with a friend of minewhose mother was dying, who was
90, and she had dementia and,and and it had just progressed
(14:23):
to the point where she hadstopped eating and we were in.
I was sitting with her.
I considered a big honor to sitdead.
You're were feeful and Ihappened to be there and the
anger came in.
I'm sure had come in to issuelast rights.
I'm not on a percent sure ifit's called that in the Anglican
faith and all that it might becalled something a different,
but so the mother had beenunresponsive, though.
(14:44):
When the, when the minister camein and stood, lovely man Came
in to speak the prayers shestarted to mouth along with him,
and I could see a huge weightlifted from her.
Mm-hmm and for someone who'sreligious in that way, some of
the things that were said inthat prayer about leaving your
burdens behind.
(15:05):
Mm-hmm and being prepared tomove forward to the next, the
next phase of their life as asoul.
And and those are some of thethings that we see when we do
cycle pump work is that peopleare Worried about those who are
left behind, or they'reconcerned about their worldly
baggage or things that they feelthat they perhaps will be
(15:28):
judged for, and and I just thinkthat what a beautiful thing
that you can do, whether it'sreligious or otherwise, or
through the work that we do, tobe able to support people in
helping them make thattransition in a way that's
unburdened.
John Moir (15:44):
Katherine, would you like to explain how we do the
work of cycle pump healing?
Catherine Hughes (15:48):
Oh, yeah, no, I'd be happy to do that.
Yeah, we've talked a lot aboutwhat it is.
We haven't explained it though,have we?
Yeah, I've had be helpful.
So a cycle pod what it involvesis a middle-world journey, for
us at least in this practice.
There are other culturalpractices who would do it
differently Sometimes there I'vebeen, I've understood that
(16:10):
there are some group, there aresome different cultures that
deal a group ceremony to help acommunity member pass when
they've passed, and support thesoul on its journey, and.
But in this case what we'redoing is we're doing a
middle-world journey and we workwith helping compassionate
spirits and we're doing amiddle-world journey to that
(16:31):
soul, as you did with the womanon the side of the road.
And we're going and we'rehaving a little conversation
with them and asking them ifthey're happy, where they are
and if we can be of assistanceand we had a feel for the person
and where they are and whetherthey need help or not.
Sometimes they say, no, I don'tneed any help, and you see,
that's great and you leave thembe.
(16:51):
But if they're confused or theywant a little bit more
information, you say that youcan conduct them and then you
give them a choice if they wantto go up or down, and then you,
through a process, a shamanicprocess, you escort them and
Then you drop them at thedoorstep of the in, where
there'll be someone there tomeet them.
In the upper or lower worldthere's always someone there to
(17:14):
meet them don't always know, butthere's always someone their
familial psychopaths or otherbeings that are, or family
members that are willing to tobe there for the person, and
then you leave them, and, in mycase, the way I've been taught
Is that we then close theopening.
What we've gone through to dropthem off and then we come back
(17:37):
and it involves often a littleconversation.
I don't get too involved intheir life story as much as
possible.
Sometimes they're not able toreally communicate that,
depending on how confused theyare.
But it's really about showingcare.
I'm here to check up on you andI want to make sure you're okay
.
For some people, especiallydepending on how they pass, it's
(17:58):
really meaningful that for them.
And then I just reassure themthat they're not going to be
judged and that I'm confidentbecause of my exploration.
I'm confident that I'm takingthem to a place where they'll be
happy and they'll be able tocontinue their souls path.
John Moir (18:14):
And you know, it's really rewarding, it's beautiful
work For those inclined to dothis work, and there is a
teaching path to become apsychopath correct.
Would you like to explain wherethey might be able to receive
that kind of education?
Catherine Hughes (18:33):
There are other people out there that
teach variations at this work.
Know, when I was looking around, when I was trying to figure
out where I wanted to study andwhat I wanted to do, I found the
foundation and I spoke to me.
There's universal and nearuniversal practices, things that
Michael Harner Witnessed andexperienced and wanted to see.
What were common practicesamong shamanic peoples for for
(18:57):
supporting the dead, and Istarted studying with them and I
like it because it's veryrespectful of the soul and
there's a completion to it inthat we're we are Escorting the
soul to a place that we know isgood, that we've experienced
that, we feel good in our heart,and so for me, it's that
(19:19):
completion of the activitythat's important in.
That's a healing in itself.
I like that.
We can escort them to do thatwork and that's part of the
practice.
It's considered an advancedtraining in a way, but you only
it with the foundation.
You only need to do basicworkshop, which we call basic.
(19:40):
That's not really basic, butit's the way of the shaman where
you learn to journey, becauseyou want to have strong journey
skills in order to do this work,because you probably journey
into the middle world.
And One of the things I likeabout the also the way we teach
it is.
It's actually quite lifeaffirming, because we do a
number of journeys to, toexplore what happens to souls
when they pass.
(20:01):
And what would you might liketo, where would you might like
to go when you pass?
Because you do have some choicehere, yes, you do you have such
eyes?
what would you like?
Or or final For yourdestination to look like, what
would you like to experiencethere?
And so in the, in thepreparation for during the cycle
path work, you learn how to toexplore your own passing.
(20:26):
What would happen to you as asoul, what's possible, what
happens to souls when they pass,where do they go, what kind of
healing do they receive?
And all of that, I think forsome people is really helpful
For them to experience it ontheir own, because I've I have a
lot of people who come toworkshops who have lost somebody
(20:47):
in our grieving and they aredrawn to the work and it in a
way it puts them lying at easeabout where their loved ones are
and what they might beexperiencing.
But I've had some clients andstudents who are well into their
In 70s and 80s who found thatwork was also helpful for them
(21:08):
to lessen their anxiety overtheir passing.
Maybe they were religious atone time and are no longer and
are wondering what it would belike for them.
John Moir (21:17):
Well, it did for me.
I found the whole experienceHelping people that I knew and
just my own experience ofexploring all those different
topologies like the upper, lowerand middle worlds, and and it
and I don't know you.
After those experiences, yousomething is different.
No, you never see the world inthe same way again.
(21:39):
Why are there ankle pump work?
Catherine Hughes (21:43):
Well, I think if they start by taking a Taking
, learning to journey andlearning to be comfortable in
the spirit world a little bitmore, I really think that's
helpful because you really wantto have some agency.
I think that I encounter somepeople with a lot of built-in
fear about the spirit world, andso sometimes you need to work
(22:04):
with it a little bit for a whileto get more comfortable,
depending on people'sbackgrounds, what they've been
taught.
I Think that people have to becareful.
If they are having significantmental health issues, I think
they have to work to see if it'sa good fit for them and that's
a conversation they could havelike a teacher as well about
that if it's a good fit for them.
(22:25):
If you're in a mental oremotional crisis, I would not
recommend it, not because itnecessarily gonna cause you harm
, but I think you need to be.
I Think you need to have somestability in your life in order
to launch from there and I dohave people.
I could argue, if you're heavilygrieving, that maybe it's not
the right choice, but I woulddisagree because I just think
(22:48):
that I've had people in theworkshops who are in that
position and it's we've neverbeen helpful for them.
Yeah, I think also this worktoo is that when you enter into
these worlds and you explore,you have access to these
compassionate spirits that canhelp you to understand more
(23:08):
about the challenges you have inyour life.
And what I find is that peoplewalk in ordinary reality, this
everyday reality, with morepower and agency.
Through this experience ofworking with the helping
compassionate spirit and bylearning to explore the spirit
worlds, you have an opportunityto learn knowledge and gain a
(23:32):
wider perspective, which you canthen bring into your ordinary
life as well.
So I think you're a benefit.
Obviously, I'm a bit biased,because this is my practice.
John Moir (23:41):
Yeah, and it's the basic workshop kind of gives
everybody who takes the programenough reference and enough
experience If they take theirtime just living it, being in it
before they move on to othermore advanced workshops.
Catherine Hughes (24:00):
Yeah, very healing, and it's to think that
everything around them is spirit, that they learn that very
quickly, and in that situationthey gain a guardian spirit of
some kind, either in animal form, or in teacher form, depending
on the least one that is thereto help guide them and they can
(24:22):
count on, and so there'sprotection, ordinary life as
well as in the spirit world, andI think that's one thing that
people are looking for as wellis this idea that they have
these spiritual allies that havetheir back.
John Moir (24:35):
That's right.
Catherine Hughes (24:36):
Like.
That's the reason why Michaelstarted this in the beginning
was he felt that Westerners werewandering around.
He saw in shamanic culturesthat people had power sources,
had powerful allies of thespirit world and he realized
that in Western world peoplewere wandering around without
(24:57):
these spirit allies.
And that was really the basisof how he even started this.
To teach this work, to developthis program In the beginning
was for people to wander around,being more in soul and having
personal power.
John Moir (25:13):
Can you just enlarge Michael a little bit for
everybody who he was and justthe impact that he had on the
shamanic community?
Catherine Hughes (25:22):
Michael Harner was an anthropologist and at
the time when he was workingwith communities shamanic
communities the anthropologistswere told not to get involved
and there was a lot ofdisrespect for shamans and
medicine people that somehowthem talking to the spirit world
was that they were crazy.
(25:43):
And Michael was really curiousand wanted to talk to them and
find out a little bit more aboutthem.
He saw something different whenhe was working with them and
they said to him that if youwant to understand what we do,
you're going to have to getinvolved and you're going to
have to practice.
And so he went outside of whatwas normal in academic
(26:03):
environments by getting involvedand practicing with the
different cultures that he waswith, and then that led to him
realizing that there wassomething really missing in
Western culture and somethingthat would benefit.
And so he started exploring howto teach practices to the
(26:24):
Westerners, but not from acultural point of view, but more
from a methodology.
And so he started teaching andthe foundations was set up
around 1979 and it's been goingever since their branches all
over the world, and really theworkshop that we teach the way
of the shaman is what hedeveloped over time and it's
(26:49):
basically the same workshop thathe taught back then Of
Westerners, understand moreabout what shamanic cultures
were all about and what were thebenefits there, and also how
could we expand our ability toheal and be more respectful of
our neighbors and the planet.
(27:12):
And he got to know manydifferent people in different
cultures and often he took notesor would take down those
teachings and he has a largebody of knowledge at the
foundation, which is anon-profit, where they're
keeping that knowledge, andsometimes what happens is in
(27:32):
culture people have lost theirpractices.
They can go to the foundationand see if they have anything
written down from Michael, fromhis research or others, and then
he returns and it's happenedwhere they've been practices
nobody taught it to follow, andthe foundation also shamans in
certain cultures where, ifwithout that financial support,
(27:54):
they wouldn't be able to teachthe practices and they may be
the last of their lineage.
And so there are a number ofindividuals that the foundation
supports in order for them toteach people in their culture
their practices.
But that was a different timeand now we have to be really
careful about culturalappropriation, and it's not.
We don't take it lightly at thefoundation and I certainly
(28:16):
don't take it lightly, and sothere has been a real effort
over the years to make sure thatif there is a cultural practice
that we reference, that it'sreferenced and it's not taught,
unless it was something that wasgiven freely or shared freely,
and so that's been somethingthat over time has changed with
(28:38):
the foundation as well.
But Michael's legacy some wouldargue that he reintroduced
shamanism to the West, to alarger audience, and has led to
a resurgence of interest inshamanism throughout the world.
And hopefully, I hope, morerespect for those practices in
(28:59):
cultures from a Western point ofview, to be offering more
respect.
John Moir (29:03):
Yeah, and an extension to that would be more
respect for all that's living,all that is, and we certainly
need to have an Earth viewperspective now right.
Catherine Hughes (29:14):
Yeah, if you've engaged in journey to a
tree or danced a tree, you'reless likely to think.
You're going to think twicebefore you cut it down for
aesthetic reasons and for pulpand paper.
Or if you've journeyed to theriver and found out what its
needs are, you're going tohopefully treat that river with
(29:35):
different kind of respect thanperhaps we've been.
I speak for myself, from aWestern point of view, of how
we've been raised.
I certainly know when I was notraised with this type of world
view.
John Moir (29:46):
Diah has a kid and I find that for me, what the
shamanism has taught me is thatthe need to love oneself greatly
, and when you can do that, thenit makes it so much easier to
love other things just asgreatly, even though you don't
know them or know what it is,but that respect and love and
caring goes out and compassiongoes out to all things.
Catherine Hughes (30:10):
Yeah, to the best of your ability, we're
still human and unfortunate Forme, it's like the Western habits
die hard and so it'sincremental.
I find that often our innerlife changes faster than our
outer life, and so some of thethings that you'd like to make
changes.
You've seen the light, in a way, you've learned something, but
(30:32):
then it becomes the action ofhow do you shape your
consumerism or your way ofwalking in this world in order
to match what you've learned,and for me that's been a
challenge, but there has beenchange, though.
John Moir (30:49):
Rathen, oh absolutely .
Catherine Hughes (30:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm very cognizant of the lackof perfection.
You know that we do our best.
We do our best.
It's oh when you know betteryou do better, that's right and
I absolutely always said thatwhen you know better, you do
better, and it's just a constantsort of growth in that when you
(31:15):
know better, you do better.
John Moir (31:17):
Let's leave it at that note, and I just like to
say that a lot of what Catherinehas referenced as well, as I
feel like to get in touch withher later on, I check the show
notes and all that informationthat you probably be looking for
will be in the show notes thatwill follow this podcast.
Any last words, catherine, youdid pretty well so far.
Catherine Hughes (31:38):
Thank you.
It's a huge topic and I just Ithink what I'd like to leave
with is that I do feel that itis better for the living, for
our ancestor to be at peace,wherever they are, that I think
that that is something that isbeneficial for your descendants.
So, whatever you can do to beat peace, whatever you can do to
(32:02):
help your ancestors who'vepassed to be at peace, I think
it's well worth the effort.
John Moir (32:07):
I couldn't agree more .
Thank you for joining us intothe world of Shamanism and its
(33:00):
connection to grief, healing andspiritual growth.
If you enjoyed thisconversation be sure to
subscribe to the.
Urban Grief Shams.
So you never miss an episode,and if you have any questions or
would like to explore thistopic further, please reach out
to us with comments and supportin the world to us.
Until next time, may you findgrace and insight into your own
(33:22):
spiritual journey.
Thank you, thank you.
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