January 21, 2025 • 46 mins
Dedication:
This episode is dedicated to all military members, veterans, first responders, emergency room physicians, nurses, and hospital security teams. Your courage, resilience, and service are deeply honored.
In this heartfelt episode, Carmen Theobald shares her transformative journey from surviving trauma to embracing post-traumatic growth through her work with horses. She recounts her life-changing experience during a school shooting in Montreal and how it led her to discover the healing power of horses. Carmen explains how equine-assisted therapy offers unique emotional breakthroughs for first responders and others experiencing trauma. Discover how the wisdom and presence of horses help individuals rebuild trust, navigate grief, and embrace courage. Whether you’re exploring healing or seeking hope, this episode offers profound insights and inspiration.
Mentioned in the episode
Watch the trailer to the film Horse Boy on YouTube HERE
Watch the video for First Responders HERE
Watch the introduction video to Horse Sense North HERE
Guest Bio
Music for this episode
I Already Know | Sam Will | Epidemic Sound
No River Wide Enough | Airage | Epidemic Sound
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✨ Book your free discovery call: Soulful Energy Medicine
Foundation for Shamanic Studies: Explore here
“The Way of the Shaman” book by Michael Harner
Society for Shamanic Practice: Explore here
Connect
John@urbangriefshamans.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Moir (00:07):
You know we don't talk enough about the toll that
trauma takes on first responders.
I'm a retired paramedic.
I first started my career in1978.
What I want to talk about isthat there are people who show
up on some of the worst days ofour lives Firefighters,
paramedics, police officers andothers.
They deal with situations mostof us can't imagine day in and
(00:31):
day out, but I'm glad for that.
You shouldn't have to.
And while these professionalsare well-trained in their jobs,
nothing really prepares them forthe emotional weight that comes
from seeing what most peopleshould never have to see.
So it's no surprise that manyof these first responders
struggle with burnout, anxiety,ptsd and even soul loss.
(00:54):
The question is how can we helpthem heal?
How can we create spaces wherethey feel safe to process their
experiences?
That's what we're going toexplore today, and there is no
one-size-fits-all solution, butthere are innovative approaches
making a real difference.
Carmen Theobald (01:14):
What did happen is that during the school
shooting, I was stuck in aclassroom on the path for the
shooter to be.
He was opening the doors andgoing into a bunch of classes
and doing terrible things.
I had to be stuck in a darkclassroom hiding with my
classmates for 45 minuteslistening as he got closer and
closer to where we were, and Itruly believed that that was
(01:41):
going to be my last day on Earth.
John Moir (01:44):
Our guest today is a survivor healer and a beacon of
resilience.
With profound courage, she'stransformed personal trauma into
a journey of growth, guidingothers towards healing.
Her compassionate work bridgeshuman and animal connection,
offering transformative insightsinto grief, vulnerability and
the incredible strength found inembracing life fully.
(02:07):
Welcome back.
You're listening to the UrbanGrief Shamans and I'm your host,
john Moyer.
Carmen Theobald (02:14):
It's such an honor for me to be able to work
with those who serve ourcommunities, and serving those
who serve others truly is themost important thing I can do
with my time.
I know that at a visceral levelbecause of some of my
experiences, including thatschool shooting from all the
first responders that made itpossible for me to be alive that
day.
John Moir (02:36):
This is our guest, carmen Theobald, who is deeply
committed to serving those whoserve others.
With heartfelt dedication, shecreates safe, transformative
spaces for first responders toheal from trauma.
She helps these braveindividuals process grief and
rediscover resilience inprofound and lasting ways.
Let's listen in, carmen.
(02:58):
I'm really curious about yourstory.
I know everybody has grief.
You mentioned it in some ofyour material.
That there is a period of griefin Montreal, I think, is what
made me think that that's whereyour story started.
Would you be able to share someof that with us?
Carmen Theobald (03:13):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think it's reallyimportant to share my story
because it does really relate toeverything that I'm doing now.
And as I share this story, Ialso invite listeners to have a
little bit of an activationwarning that some of the things
I'm going to talk about might bedifficult to hear and even
though they were difficultexperiences, I'm also grateful
to be able to talk about thembecause they really taught me so
(03:34):
much.
Growing up in my family home,there was a lot of trauma.
There was a lot of emotionaland verbal and psychological
abuse emotional and verbal andpsychological abuse and I was
doing my best to navigate that,learning about it, because of
course, that was my reality.
But I really felt not well inthat environment and then I
(03:55):
decided to go and study socialservices.
So I got to the point of goingto college in Montreal and I
chose to study a field that wasin service to other people and
as I was learning more and morein social services, it was
helping to articulate what I wasexperiencing at home.
Those were layers of grief thatwere happening but also very
validating.
So it was this simultaneousmedicine of what was happening
(04:19):
as well as going through thedeep feelings of that, going
through the deep feelings ofthat, and then, while I was
studying social services, anevent took place that completely
changed my life.
It was a Wednesday and it wasduring one of the most
meaningful classes that I hadthat semester.
(04:40):
It was a very long class thathad extraordinarily precise
timing from nine to noon andthen from one to four we had
class and I'm saying thatbecause it really matters to
this story that this was theonly day that that precise
timing of lunch, being exactlyfrom noon to 1pm, did not happen
.
Lunch was bumped 20 minutesBecause what happened that day
(05:04):
is there was a school shootingthat took place, and I would
have been right in the center ofthe worst of it had I gone to
lunch at that moment that wewere scheduled to.
What did happen is that duringthe school shooting, I was stuck
in a classroom on the path forthe shooter to be.
He was opening the doors andgoing into a bunch of classes
and doing terrible things, and Ihad to be stuck in a dark
(05:28):
classroom hiding with myclassmates for 45 minutes
listening as he got closer andcloser to where we were, and I
truly believed that that wasgoing to be my last day on earth
, all signs were pointing to thelikelihood that I very well may
(05:49):
not make it through this, and Ihad something really
interesting happen that I feellike is appropriate to talk
about on this podcast, where Ihad a moment where it was the
panic and the fear was reallyrising and I really was having
(06:09):
that escalated sense of all thefear that was very contagious in
the classroom.
There was stifled sobs andcries that were happening all
over the place.
Also, to give context, all thecommunications went down on the
island of Montreal, because itwas such a huge college that
this took place at DawsonCollege in Montreal in 2006 that
everyone was trying to reachtheir loved ones, and so all the
(06:32):
cell towers got overloaded andno one could reach anybody.
And so when that happened, whenthat moment of people are
reaching out, texting, callingtheir people, being reached out
to, that was already being you,you know an escalated moment.
But then, when no one couldreach anybody, the fear and
intensity of that panic rose foreveryone in a really
(06:53):
significant way, and I feltmyself have a fork in the road
moment and I it's like I caughtthe scent.
I caught the whiff of analternate option to more fear,
and I don't know what in me wasallowing myself to even notice
that that was an option or whatallowed me to choose it.
But I do feel like it was acomplete and utter game changer
(07:18):
of my life.
Not just of that moment where,instead of continuing to feel
afraid, I got very still andcalm and grounded.
I felt very in my body.
I felt very capable of action.
I had a clear action plan of ifthe shooter came in, this was
my next step.
All these things.
I was able to think through thequote problem.
(07:40):
I just felt like I surrenderedto the moment in a way, with
this radical self-acceptance andradical acceptance of
everything that allowed me tofeel tremendous peace and to
know that if my actions did notallow my life to be saved, if
this day really did claim mylife, then it's okay, I felt at
(08:04):
peace with that, and then agroup of police officers, maybe
five minutes later, came intothe class and escorted us to a
position of safety and wesecretly, silently, went outside
of this back staircase and wegot outside and the sunshine hit
(08:24):
my face and I took a deepbreath and I realized that I was
actually going to be alive fora while longer.
It connected me in this veryintensely visceral and beautiful
way to the feeling of alivenessand also courage.
(08:47):
If I am prepared to die withpeace, then I am prepared to
live with courage.
And it changed everythingmoving forward, changed all of
my decisions after that point.
John Moir (09:03):
Did any of your other classmates have similar
experiences to that, Carmen?
Carmen Theobald (09:08):
I ended up leaving school and it sounds
like well, yeah, of course, butI actually wasn't leaving to run
away from school.
I didn't have hardly anypost-traumatic stress symptoms
being at school.
I had a few dreams, but it werequite minimal.
I would really describe thisexperience as post-traumatic
(09:29):
growth, but what that also meantis that I wasn't as in contact
with the people who were in myclass anymore, because what I
was really doing leaving wasgoing toward what my heart was
telling me to go toward Choosing, to spend my time with people
in places that really filled meup in a way that I just wasn't
able to access in school.
Although I loved studying whatI was studying, I knew I needed
(09:50):
to leave school and I needed toleave Montreal.
Something else was calling me.
I couldn't articulate it, Icouldn't quite put it into frame
yet, but I knew I had to havecourageous choices, to follow my
heart, and that's what I did.
So, to answer your question, Idon't really know.
Maybe I hope so, for them but Idon't know.
John Moir (10:08):
And so that was the beginning of your new journey.
Carmen Theobald (10:10):
That was the beginning of my new journey.
So I left Montreal to govolunteer on a farm for room and
board.
Although there can be lots ofamazing things said about my
family, that I do have a lot oflove, there was also a lot of
harm harm and it was soimportant to get out of that
space and to follow what myheart was telling me to do.
So I got on this bus and took aleap of faith and thought I was
(10:34):
going to be volunteering atthis farm for room and board
that had vegetable gardens,maple syrup and 24 horses.
I thought I was going to bethere for two weeks.
Turns out I was there almosttwo years and it opened the door
to me working with horsesprofessionally.
I got an apprenticeship as afarrier, so that's a person who
takes care of horses' feet.
(10:54):
I put shoes on horses, I trimtheir feet.
I've worked with thousands ofhorses now in that way and that
led me to the work that I'mexcited to really talk about
more at some point with you.
But all of those pieces of thatjourney would not have been
possible had I not had this kindof post-traumatic growth life
expansiveness that is woven withgrief but also completely
(11:17):
life-opening and life-affirming.
John Moir (11:20):
What brought you to the idea of working with horses?
What?
Carmen Theobald (11:23):
brought you to the idea of working with horses.
Well, it was my mother, whoknew that I wasn't doing well in
school emotionally and althoughI did very well with my grades,
it was not good for me, and shecould tell and she knew that I
might want to try some kind ofadventure.
So she was very supportive ofthat at the beginning.
My father not so much, but shelearned about this program
(11:45):
called WOOF, which is WillingWorkers on Organic Farms Also.
Another acronym could beWorldwide Opportunities on
Organic Farms, and so at thetime it was a paper booklet.
Now, of course, it's all online, but you get a whole list of
farms in the country you sign upfor, and so I signed up for
Canada.
I got the $40 booklet that wasfor Canada and they list out all
of these different farm optionswhere people are willing to be
(12:07):
hosts and wanting you to comeand volunteer in doing this
exchange.
So I just read these littleparagraph descriptions and of
course it was the one withhorses that was telling me I
want to go there, and I'm soglad that I did.
Now I have a business calledHorse Sense North and we offer
personal growth, leadership andteam development and we do a lot
of trauma recovery work withthe help of horses and we work
(12:28):
with a lot of first responders,military, public safety
personnel.
Many of the people within thefirst responder and military
community are men.
Many of those people areresistant to getting some kind
of emotional, mental healthsupport.
Horses tend to be a reallyhelpful piece to break through
(12:50):
that barrier.
But when it comes to thetherapy work with horses and
horses period, I think theyreally cross all genders.
I think they really crosscultures.
I think the horses really areable to have this beautiful way
of just touching our heartregardless of what our human
lives and experiences are reallydetailed on, but just about
(13:11):
being alive with them, helpingus remind us that we're part of
nature with them and inspiringus to be healthy versions of who
we are.
John Moir (13:24):
Are the horses themselves predominantly female
the ones that we work with?
Carmen Theobald (13:30):
Yes, Right now we actually have a herd that is
all geldings, so males, who have, uh, no longer the ability to
reproduce.
Um, which is funny to me,because, if anything, I, if
someone had asked me if I have apreference, I probably would
have said mares, so femalehorses, not because I really
like them more, but just becausethat's who's been my like
closest connections over theyears, but just because that's
(13:53):
who's been my closestconnections over the years, but
just because of circumstance, wehave mostly male horses, only
male horses, right now on siteand that's going to change and
ebb and flow.
And our herd right now they'reincredible and I think that,
just like any profession or anygroup, yes, gender has a part to
play, it has influence, it has,you know, there's information
there, but it does not in anyway mean anything more than just
(14:16):
little bits of insight intothat individual.
It doesn't mean that they can'tbe incredible beings or have
incredible challenges orwhatever that story might be.
So it's really neat to havethis herd right now, also
because for many years to havethis herd right now, also
because for many years they hada female leader, they had a
matriarch.
Her name was Grace and she wastruly the most phenomenal leader
(14:43):
of humans, horses and allspecies I have ever come across.
She was my first horse.
I worked with horses for a longtime before I officially took
one into my family because Iknew it was a lifelong
commitment that I was resistinga little bit.
But she came along and I knewit had to be her and she was the
first horse that came to myfarm and she has been the leader
(15:05):
of many iterations of our herdhere, as we've had other
people's horses stay with us, aswe've had horses pass away, as
we've had new horses come.
She's been the leader foralmost a decade.
And when she passed away a yearand a half ago, of course I was
probably the mostgrief-stricken I've ever been in
my life.
She was truly my best friendand my closest working partner
(15:27):
in what we do.
But I was also concernedbecause I was worried like, well
, what's the herd dynamic goingto be like?
Because you know horses, I seehorses at so many different
farms.
In my role as a farrier, I seeso many different herds and
sometimes those herds arepeaceful, sometimes they're not.
It has a lot to do with theleadership.
It has a lot to do with what'sthe tone being set about what
(15:52):
kind of behavior is allowed andnot allowed.
Is it kind of more of abullying environment?
Is it more of a collaborativeenvironment?
Is there a horse that's willingto like put the law down, like,
put their foot down, literallytheir hoof, and say we don't
treat each other that way?
Or are they the one who areactually like role modeling
unhealthy behavior?
Who are actually like rolemodeling unhealthy behavior?
(16:15):
And so Grace just had such abeautiful combination of being
an incredibly powerful beingwhere she wouldn't let anyone
get away with anything but shewas so generous and kind and
warm and considerate and wouldshare the hay and share the
water and be so inclusive andreally welcoming and just have
(16:35):
this deep, deep heart connectionand have that simultaneously
with this super deep, groundedpower.
And what that's done with hermatriarchal leadership style is
it's infused this herd ofgeldings, this group of males,
males to have the same kind ofculture, even without her here.
(16:56):
That is carrying on, even aswe've had a new herd member
integrate who's coming withdifferent kinds of ways of
engaging socially, used to otherkinds of more like, you know,
bickering or bullying tacticsand this and that.
But it's amazing to watch howthe herd actually is carrying on
the values that they've allreally healed with.
(17:18):
They've all done healing cycleswith that kind of leadership
and the new herd member is nowintegrating in the same kind of
way.
Some of the ways we always workthe horses at Liberty they're
never with a rope or a halter on.
They're in a space with us, anenclosure, so they can move
around.
Liberty they're never with arope or a halter on they're in a
space with us, an enclosure, sothey can move around freely.
They're not going to run awaytoo far, but they can be quite a
(17:38):
distance from the human sothey're never forced to do or be
anything.
They're also always volunteers,our horses, so we're never
going out to the field andsaying, okay, it's your turn to
work today.
We're saying who wants to worktoday?
And we always get someonevolunteering.
They kind of like go back andforth and then someone will walk
over, like they haven't figuredout.
(17:59):
Sometimes they just give a verysubtle cue of like, okay,
they'll put their head up like,hey, come on over, come get me,
and then they'll be very obviousin how they want their head to
go in the halter.
But if they show body languageof like actually in the halter.
But if they show body languageof like actually no, I changed
my mind or I don't want to dothis then we listen to that.
They're allowed to have theirno, they're allowed to have
their boundaries, their respectin that process.
So the kind of partnership wehave with them needs to be, in
(18:22):
my view, for all work withhorses, but especially what
we're doing here.
It's our value system that wereally need to be in healthy,
mutually respectful relationship.
Because if you're not, thenwe're working and learning with
horses but it's not going to benecessarily in true spiritual
alignment for them if we'reusing them as a tool.
(18:45):
So how do we really learn how topartner in healthy relationship
with them so they can show upin the fullness of who they are
and really teach us as spiritualbeings?
So I hope that I can, you know,not sound too woo-woo on this
podcast about that, but reallythe stuff that I see the horses
do with humans, it crosses outof that kind of just a very
(19:06):
science-based world, because thehorses are very spiritual
animals.
The horses are incrediblyemotionally attuned and they're
really sensing us at a heartlevel.
It's like they see through allthe armor.
They see through all the masksand they're like I'm just going
to respond to your heart and toyour spirit and I'm going to
engage with you in a way that isexactly what is needed for you
(19:26):
to grow with this very direct,clear body language.
But that's also safe andnon-judgmental.
And it's remarkable whathappens when we learn how to be
with them in that kind of takingthe mask off, taking the armor
off space, learning how to landin our heart and learning to
(19:50):
connect with our spirit together.
Whether that language fits forsomeone or not, I don't always
bring it in, but really that'swhat they're doing.
They're asking us to develop abetter relationship with them,
which ultimately meansdeveloping a better relationship
with our spirit.
John Moir (20:04):
Yes, I remember being shown a movie.
It was about a family who hadtaken their young autistic son
to Mongolia Horseboy yes, ofcourse you would have seen that.
Carmen Theobald (20:17):
Yeah, rupert's in, yeah, yeah.
John Moir (20:20):
I'll leave some show notes about Horseboy.
It was quite an amazing story.
How much has working with thehorses changed you?
The shamanism is all aboutspirit and we're all connected
to everything.
Why wouldn't they be?
That's what makes the world sowonderful that we can
communicate and be taught byliterally everything around us.
That's right, and it's whatmakes us richer.
(20:42):
So I'm just wondering, beforewe get on to first responders,
what you could share about yourdevelopment.
Carmen Theobald (20:50):
Absolutely Well , when I first arrived to that
farm that I was volunteering atwhen I left Montreal, I'd had a
handful of horse experiencesbefore then maybe a trail ride
one summer and then another timeI got to pet a horse, and then
a trail ride another summer, youknow, but really so minimal.
So when I arrived to this farm,I knew nothing, and the horses
(21:12):
at this particular location wereactually quite dangerous.
I didn't know it at the time,but they had a lot of people
like myself handling them wherethey didn't know anything about
horses, and so the horses wereconstantly learning that they
could be in charge and that theycould be very kind of bullying
(21:32):
in their behavior.
They were quite dangerous, tobe very frank, but what I
learned quickly is that itwasn't because that they were
malicious or because they wantedto take advantage.
It's because they wereconstantly searching for a sense
of safety and they were sayinghuman, are you able to be a
leader that I need you to be?
And if not, then I guess I'm onmy own.
(21:53):
And if I'm on my own, I'm notgoing to be paying as much
attention to you, because I'mjust really worried about my own
safety, because I feel like I'mvery at risk, and so there's
more injuries that are going tohappen because I'm just paying
attention to my environment,about what I'm afraid of instead
of what you're telling me.
And so I started to work withthis one horse, contessa.
(22:17):
So, despite her kind of divaself, of course, she still had
this very pure and kind heart asa horse this being that doesn't
have any malicious intent, evenif she's got a big, strong
personality.
And I started to work with herat this farm, and what she
started to teach me is the themeof what I've been learning with
horses for the thousands ofhorses that I've now worked with
(22:39):
and that continues to be thekind of core piece of learning
that I keep doing and that I seeclients do as well.
And what she was teaching me isthat I needed to be able to be
powerful and gentle at the sametime.
Not powerful one moment andthen gentle the next.
That's just confusing but to bereally able to land in my heart
(23:02):
and in my body in this way thathas this deep, grounded
confidence, without shutting myheart off.
And so, whether that's, how dowe set a boundary in a way
that's not shutting offconnection, but that's still
very clear.
How do I step into a leadershipposition to say, hey, it's okay
, if you're afraid of this thing, let me show you that it's
(23:23):
actually not so scary, but I'mnot going to minimize your fear?
How can I really validate thisbeing while staying safe myself?
And so it's that combination ofhow do we be strong and kind,
how do we be gentle and powerfulas a whole unit, not as two
ends of a spectrum.
They keep inviting me to findthat middle point of bringing
(23:44):
them together in a paradoxicalway.
John Moir (23:48):
Nice.
Carmen Theobald (24:27):
Does that affect your relationships?
With that, can I have moreacceptance for myself about that
, and then can I have growth andlearning and transformation
with that?
And then, of course, that iscompletely impacting all of my
relationships, whether it'ssomeone that I meet on the
street or who's cashing me outat the grocery store, or my
partner, or a businessrelationship, or a friend or a
(24:49):
client.
It's everyone, because I thinkrelationship is at the core of
our entire life.
John Moir (24:57):
Well said, I want to know about your first responder
people.
Being a retired paramedic, I'mcertainly aware of the effects
of trauma response in people andwe had a few episodes that
spoke to PTSD.
So yeah, I've seen it.
(25:17):
I felt it in my own body.
I had a bit of a philosophicalapproach to my work.
That developed a spiritualitythat started earlier for me and
it really changed the way that Iwas working in EMS and I think
that helped me quite a bit.
But I used to always say thatthose big calls that nobody
should be part of or see we allleave a little part of ourselves
(25:40):
behind and as I got more intoshamanism later on, years after
I realized that language wasreally expressing, I'm feeling
so lost.
Yeah, yeah.
So tell us more about yourresponders.
Carmen Theobald (26:00):
Thank you so much for sharing that, john.
I feel as though our clientswho we're working with from that
public safety personnelbackground would deeply relate
to that background, would deeplyrelate to that, and it's such
an honor for me to be able towork with those who serve our
communities, and serving thosewho serve others truly is the
(26:21):
most important thing I can dowith my time.
I know that at a visceral levelbecause of some of my
experiences, including thatschool shooting from all the
first responders that made itpossible for me to be alive that
day, including that schoolshooting from all the first
responders that made it possiblefor me to be alive that day and
also just as a member of thecommunity, as a person of this
world really deeply appreciatingand valuing the service that
people like yourself haveoffered to the communities that
(26:43):
you support.
And so, as I built Horse SenseNorth and started to do more of
this horse and human wellnesswork and then transitioned more
and more into the therapeuticside, working with therapists,
working with other mental healthproviders, it was so clear that
the population I was the mostpassionate about was this public
safety personnel community, andwe also had a lot of these
(27:05):
individuals coming to see us,even without a program
specifically for them, and itjust really affirmed that.
And I think that's again wherethe horses really draw in people
who are coming from all walksof life.
But I think that they have aspecial gift.
The horses have a special giftof kind of crossing that barrier
that's sometimes there forpeople who need to be incredibly
(27:26):
strong for their job, for theirlife, for their lifestyle, that
it can be very hard to leaninto different kinds of support
and different kinds of softnessand vulnerability within the
self when there's so much ofthat armoring up and putting the
uniform on and living in thatkind of way for just being able
to keep going.
And the horses offer thisexample, this kind of
(27:50):
inspiration, this beacon of hope, if you will, that we can
actually learn how to bevulnerable and do the healing
work without losing our strength.
And I think that's a little bitof what they invite.
So, working with people fromthese backgrounds, it's very
clear that.
(28:11):
Well, a couple of things I wantto say about that.
One post-traumatic stress is soinevitable in the kinds of work
that you do.
How can you possibly expect ahuman to be exposed to these
things over and over and notcarry so much of that weight and
not have this soul death orthis losing of yourself that
(28:35):
happens over time Be part ofthat to a degree, especially
when there's not a lot ofsupport around that.
And the other thing I want tosay on that note is that the
vast majority of people who wetalk to and who we support will
very often say that yes, thevery hard calls were
(28:57):
extraordinarily difficult and ina lot of ways it's the
organizational trauma, thesanctuary trauma, that impacted
them more painfully, because wego to those calls, we have those
experiences and then we comeback to the place that's
(29:17):
supposed to keep us safe andsupposed to support us and
supposed to have our back and itdoesn't and it doesn't validate
our experience and it actuallymakes us feel weak for being
human and having human responses.
John Moir (29:29):
I would agree with that.
Carmen Theobald (29:30):
Yeah, yeah, and in my own personal way, which
of course is not the same livedexperience, but I can relate in
the sense and that's why I bringup my family home, because that
kind of complex trauma thathappens in these little cuts,
sometimes big cuts over a longtime, whether they're
metaphorical cuts or not thoselittle wounds added up daily,
(29:53):
yearly for decades.
that adds so much challengethat's actually more difficult
to come through than the one bigexperience of, in my example, a
school shooting.
Now, of course, I had aparticularly powerful spiritual
growth moment in that, and whatI keep hearing over and over
(30:14):
again from people like yourselfis that there's these two kind
of categories of what they'recarrying as far as wounding and
difficulty, and that woundingand the difficulty of the place
that's supposed to be safe notbeing safe, and the
relationships, that relationalsupport that's supposed to be
there within the organization tobuffer the hard calls actually
(30:35):
makes them harder, or it's justnot there.
How painful and how devastatingthat is.
So I'm very grateful to havespaces where people get to not
only be together with others whocan relate, but also practice.
What can it mean to have thebody feel safer?
What can it mean to really leaninto a space that feels
(30:58):
protected in the way that we'veneeded it to feel protected,
even if it's not changing thegreater organization, giving us
some of that medicine, if youwill, that we've been lacking,
some of those essentialnutrients that we have been
malnourished with?
And the horses help us practicethat, they help us live it and
they help us bring it back intoour day-to-day life.
(31:19):
So I think the ripple effect ofthat whether it's horsework or
anything else, but the rippleeffect of connecting back with
the parts of ourselves that havebeen wounded, is healing not
just for us, but for everyone wecome in contact with.
John Moir (31:35):
Give me an example of a first responder coming in and
meeting the horse and whattakes place.
Carmen Theobald (31:41):
Sure, I'll share the story of this person
who I have a wonderful ongoingrelationship with and she would
be fine with me sharing thisstory.
I won't say her name.
She arrived to the farm andthis actually is a story
connected to Grace and animportant piece about Grace.
(32:05):
Although she's no longer withus, she's really a pinnacle of a
lot of things that we talkabout and do still and will
continue to be.
She grew up in the RCMP musicalride.
So it's this program in Canada,the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police they have for horses, butit's not militaristic structure
of the RCMP, which alsoreflects the very heavy handed
(32:34):
approach and because there's notthe safety requirement of
learning how to partner togetherfor safe patrolling, it tends
to have really prettydevastating impacts where the
main modes of quote training arereally just abuse tactics.
And I'm saying this withevidence.
There's been reports about this.
(32:55):
Grace was purchased by afarrier client of mine, taking
her out of the RCP when she wasabout 12 years old and she was
rearing and biting and strikingat the officers just trying to
put her halter on the most basicpiece of equipment.
And so, long story short, gracehad suffered a tremendous
amount of abuse.
Her fight response was verystrong because she didn't trust
(33:19):
that these people were nottrying to hurt her.
And when I took her on fromthis client although she had
settled down a little bit, Iwouldn't say she was in any way,
shape or form a safe therapypartner, like I didn't even
think she would necessarily besafe for me all the time, never
mind another person, never minda client.
But what happened is that aftermany cycles of healing she
(33:40):
became incredibly skilled athelping other people, very calm,
very regulated.
Our relationship helped herstay grounded in that ability to
do that with other people.
And if someone had asked mewould she be safe to work with
clients, especially from like amilitary or policing or public
(34:01):
safety personnel background, Iwould have said that's a
beautiful idea, but I'd bereally worried about that
because it could really activateher, bring up some old memories
.
But it turns out that's thepopulation she wanted to work
with the most.
It's as if she wanted to helpthem have healing just like she
had.
And so this client when sheshowed up to work with one of
(34:22):
her horses I never know whowhich horse is going to be,
because the horses volunteer andit turns out that this
particular day this client waslooking at grace going oh, I
really hope it's not her.
There was something in her thatknew it was going to be very
challenging.
She was like, oh, this is goingto be tough.
But it turns out Gracevolunteered and I didn't know
(34:43):
this person's background.
This person came with anaddictions recovery center that
we do some work with.
I knew enough about her to havea safe workshop, but I didn't
know that she actually had abackground in a similar line of
work as Grace.
And it turns out that not onlydoes she have a policing
background, she also has aleadership role within the
(35:03):
organization.
And Grace's story and thisclient's story are so parallel
in the kinds of abuse thatthey've experienced, in the
kinds of suffering that they'vehad, in the kinds of responses
that they've experienced, in thekinds of suffering that they've
had, in the kinds of responsesthat they've had to this kind of
trauma.
And Grace had a big visceralreaction to this client, more
than I was expecting.
So before the client even wentin, grace was running around and
(35:25):
she was doing all this stuffand the client stood up and said
I think it's because of me.
I think I know what's happeningand as I helped the client calm
her own nervous system.
Grace mirrored that and had acomplete change, as did the
client.
The client went in, had a horsesession with Grace.
(35:46):
After Grace showed me that itwas safe to do so, grace showed
me that it was safe to do so andthere was such powerful,
powerful connection betweenthese two beings where this
client describes it that herheart was black, almost like a
dead black heart, and that dayit started beating again and
(36:08):
that grace saw into her soul andhelped almost bring her back to
life.
And this is several years ago.
And now I'm so thrilled to saythat this client is now actually
back to work.
Not that needs to always be thegoal at all, but just
remarkable that's where she's atin her own life is that she
actually chose to go back towork at this point because she
(36:29):
actually feels well enough andthat's part of her purpose of
going back to change some things.
So how remarkable that kind ofhealing journey that Grace went
on is being not only mirrored inthe abuse that they suffered
with this client, but also thatthis client is able to do that
same kind of healing journeyherself.
John Moir (36:48):
It's an amazing story and I don't think that one
needs to try to dissect whatkind of communication could have
taken place, because it doesn'tuse words, does it?
Carmen Theobald (36:58):
That's the thing.
And that's the thing with allthe horse experiences.
John Moir (37:01):
They're going to all be different and there's through
lines with all of them that wecan use words, because sometimes
they help us connect to partsof ourselves, but ultimately
they don't really matter how tobe, and is there a different
response between males andfemale clients like more closed
down versus women be moreinclined to talk about emotions
(37:28):
and feelings, whereas men don'twant to talk about anything at
all, especially in firstresponders?
I think for myself and other ofmy colleagues it's all about
control you know, that we'rehere to take care of, bring
order to the chaos, so to speak,and we can't.
We've got a job to do, sobuckle down and let's get it
(37:49):
done, kind of thing.
Carmen Theobald (37:50):
That's right.
I've definitely seen thatenergy from all genders when
they come through.
There can be more of apredominance of some of those
qualities with men, but in thatfield I think that really draws
out those qualities and attractspeople of those qualities,
regardless of gender.
Again, the horse is to show upvery authentically in that.
(38:10):
And so if the person's cominginto the ring with the horse
with this sense of healthy power, I'll say of like being very
confident and grounded but stillopen in their heart, then the
horses love that.
They can recognize the strengthof that person that exists.
But if that person is leaningonly on the power side and
closing their heart off, soreally leaning toward the
(38:31):
control, the horse doesn't wantanything to do with them until
they shift that.
And so I think one of theamazing things with the horse
work, especially for the firstresponder, public safety
personnel community, is that wedon't have to have the story.
Not that there's anything wrongwith that if people want it.
But we actually don't havetrauma talk at our programs.
Of course people are stillspeaking to each other, but
(38:53):
we're intentionally not goinginto the stories.
We're intentionally not goingtoo deep into.
You know, let's have thiscathartic, emotional release.
That's not what this is about.
It's actually learning how tobe in relationship in a very
healing way, and so the horsesprovide this powerful motivator
(39:13):
and a very honest mirror,because we want to be in
connection with them.
We want to be in relation withthem and we want to show our
peers, who are watching us, thatwe can do that.
And when we struggle with it,not only is that so relatable
and makes everyone feel safer,because we can all be vulnerable
about it, but it's also thehorses who just show us that
(39:37):
it's okay if we're not gettingit.
It's okay if we're not in that.
They're not judging us for that.
They're not saying you're a badperson because you're
struggling to let go of somecontrol or open up your heart in
this moment.
But they're also not going tolike people please us about it.
They're not going to go.
Oh, it's fine.
John Moir (39:54):
Don't worry honey.
Carmen Theobald (39:55):
They're not a dog, they're not going to go.
I'm going to love anyway andjust be really cuddly with you,
no matter what state you're in.
Horses are not like that.
So when we're not in that kindof aligned place with both heart
and power, with healthystrength, with healthy
connection, they're just goingto show us that.
And as soon as we make any kindof direction toward more
(40:19):
balance, more alignment, theyreward us for that and they
really honor us in that byauthentic connection when we
find it.
John Moir (40:30):
After these engagements take place, carmen,
what's it like for them to saygoodbye at the end of the day or
the end of their week, orhowever the sessions are planned
out?
Carmen Theobald (40:41):
The vast majority of people who come
truly do have transformativeexperiences.
So I think it's a real mix ofwhat it's like at the end,
because on one hand there issuch an increased sense of hope
and energy and commitment tolife and commitment to
(41:04):
themselves and relationships ina new way, so there's almost an
excitement to go back into theirlife to see how they can apply
it and then, at the same time,there's almost an excitement to
go back into their life to seehow they can apply it and then
at the same time, there's agrief.
(41:26):
There's a deep grief becausesometimes these connections with
horses are actually the mostconnected they've ever felt in
their entire lived experience.
So to say goodbye to the horsesand goodbye to the environment
and the group that also was avery safe container is difficult
and it requires we do our bestto do a wind down and a wrap up
in a way that can carry thosepieces forward as best as
possible and invite continuedinteraction with different kinds
(41:47):
of programming that we mightoffer.
But sometimes people come andvolunteer like there's ways that
people can keep in touch, butultimately that's not possible
for everybody and it can be areal mixed bag.
But I think that's the case formost things right, like if
something's really powerful andimpactful in a positive way.
There's such a joy from thatand there's also a grief of when
(42:09):
might I find that again.
My hope and what I encourageand what I've heard from people
who return, is that there areways to bring that back into
their world.
It's not the same, but it'sthat ripple effect that we can
carry that light that weaccessed in ourselves and really
literally share that and spreadthat out with others.
John Moir (42:34):
I find that Patricia and I had led some grief
workshops, just doing othershamanic healings with groups of
people.
I find that whenever groupscome together and they do any
kind of spiritual work, it's avery intimate experience because
it's all energetic, it's of theheart, the mind doesn't have
(42:56):
anything to do with it, but it'sthis heart-to-heart connection
and we do form energeticconnections between people and
horses and other places.
But it is a longing that'screated if we leave each other.
Carmen Theobald (43:10):
Absolutely.
One benefit of having verysmall groups is when we're
working with people and horses,it's a maximum of five people at
a time.
I do work with bigger groupsfor leadership and this, and
that when it's not directly withthe horses but for this kind of
trauma work especially.
One of the really beautifulthings that I've seen happen is
that we've had a couple of theseprogram groups stay in touch
(43:33):
and they have sometimes weeklymeetings with each other, and
it's been almost a couple ofyears now that one group is
continuing to meet on a veryregular basis.
So we might find support inways that are ongoing, no matter
what kind of environmentprogram we might be attending.
But those connections, theydon't have to always just end
there, because exactly whatyou're just saying, john, that
(43:56):
it is so intimate, it is soconnected in the heart, and how
wonderful when we createcommunities of care that can
continue to support us.
John Moir (44:06):
One last question for you, carmen.
So what happens to the horsesafter they've invested this time
with their human companions,when the companion now has to
leave?
Is there any reciprocity at all?
Carmen Theobald (44:21):
Well, I think that the horses in my view they
have such an open capacity toaccess love and connection that
they don't necessarily gothrough the same level of grief
that the clients are goingthrough leaving because they get
to experience so muchconnection in their day-to-day
life all the time.
(44:42):
It's a consistent thing forthem.
It's not just because they'rehorses and they know how to do
that.
It's also because theenvironment here for them is
very supportive and safe, and sowhen clients are not around,
the horses are getting a lot ofdifferent kinds of care.
The horses are really supported.
I work with them regularly tomake sure that their needs are
getting met.
When they're not on the job, soto speak, they also have a lot
(45:04):
of releasing.
That they do because sometimesthey take things on for people.
They carry some of thoseemotional burdens.
Yeah, and so they take that onenergetically and then they see
how they release it back out inthe field.
They might go for a run, theymight roll, they might shake,
they might have a big buck and akick.
And we also do like things thathelp support them with that as
well, so different kinds of bodywork and energy work and things
(45:25):
that really kind of help keepthings flowing for them.
Of course, just likeprofessionals who work with the
public, horses who work with thepublic, they're going to have
individuals who they have anextra close relationship with
sometimes.
And what's beautiful to see isthat when we have some of those
clients return, that client Iwas describing who worked with
Grace, she's returned many times.
(45:46):
Grace and her have had have itdepends how you want to look at
it Grace and her have had haveit depends how you want to look
at it an incredibly closerelationship in many ways and
forms.
So it's not so much that I sawGrace being upset when this
client left, but I definitelysaw her light up when she would
come back.
John Moir (46:05):
Oh, beautiful.
Well, thank you for all of this, carmen, and thank you for
sharing your thoughts andexplaining what first responders
can look forward to should theyengage your services.
So thank you very much.
Thank you, john, it's such apleasure to be here.
Thank you for joining us inthis heartfelt conversation with
(46:27):
Carmen.
May her story inspire courageand healing, and remember you're
never alone on your journey, sotake care and stay connected.
You know we don't talk enough about the toll that
trauma takes on first responders.
I'm a retired paramedic.
I first started my career in1978.
What I want to talk about isthat there are people who show
up on some of the worst days ofour lives Firefighters,
paramedics, police officers andothers.
They deal with situations mostof us can't imagine day in and
(00:31):
day out, but I'm glad for that.
You shouldn't have to.
And while these professionalsare well-trained in their jobs,
nothing really prepares them forthe emotional weight that comes
from seeing what most peopleshould never have to see.
So it's no surprise that manyof these first responders
struggle with burnout, anxiety,ptsd and even soul loss.
(00:54):
The question is how can we helpthem heal?
How can we create spaces wherethey feel safe to process their
experiences?
That's what we're going toexplore today, and there is no
one-size-fits-all solution, butthere are innovative approaches
making a real difference.
Carmen Theobald (01:14):
What did happen is that during the school
shooting, I was stuck in aclassroom on the path for the
shooter to be.
He was opening the doors andgoing into a bunch of classes
and doing terrible things.
I had to be stuck in a darkclassroom hiding with my
classmates for 45 minuteslistening as he got closer and
closer to where we were, and Itruly believed that that was
(01:41):
going to be my last day on Earth.
John Moir (01:44):
Our guest today is a survivor healer and a beacon of
resilience.
With profound courage, she'stransformed personal trauma into
a journey of growth, guidingothers towards healing.
Her compassionate work bridgeshuman and animal connection,
offering transformative insightsinto grief, vulnerability and
the incredible strength found inembracing life fully.
(02:07):
Welcome back.
You're listening to the UrbanGrief Shamans and I'm your host,
john Moyer.
Carmen Theobald (02:14):
It's such an honor for me to be able to work
with those who serve ourcommunities, and serving those
who serve others truly is themost important thing I can do
with my time.
I know that at a visceral levelbecause of some of my
experiences, including thatschool shooting from all the
first responders that made itpossible for me to be alive that
day.
John Moir (02:36):
This is our guest, carmen Theobald, who is deeply
committed to serving those whoserve others.
With heartfelt dedication, shecreates safe, transformative
spaces for first responders toheal from trauma.
She helps these braveindividuals process grief and
rediscover resilience inprofound and lasting ways.
Let's listen in, carmen.
(02:58):
I'm really curious about yourstory.
I know everybody has grief.
You mentioned it in some ofyour material.
That there is a period of griefin Montreal, I think, is what
made me think that that's whereyour story started.
Would you be able to share someof that with us?
Carmen Theobald (03:13):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think it's reallyimportant to share my story
because it does really relate toeverything that I'm doing now.
And as I share this story, Ialso invite listeners to have a
little bit of an activationwarning that some of the things
I'm going to talk about might bedifficult to hear and even
though they were difficultexperiences, I'm also grateful
to be able to talk about thembecause they really taught me so
(03:34):
much.
Growing up in my family home,there was a lot of trauma.
There was a lot of emotionaland verbal and psychological
abuse emotional and verbal andpsychological abuse and I was
doing my best to navigate that,learning about it, because of
course, that was my reality.
But I really felt not well inthat environment and then I
(03:55):
decided to go and study socialservices.
So I got to the point of goingto college in Montreal and I
chose to study a field that wasin service to other people and
as I was learning more and morein social services, it was
helping to articulate what I wasexperiencing at home.
Those were layers of grief thatwere happening but also very
validating.
So it was this simultaneousmedicine of what was happening
(04:19):
as well as going through thedeep feelings of that, going
through the deep feelings ofthat, and then, while I was
studying social services, anevent took place that completely
changed my life.
It was a Wednesday and it wasduring one of the most
meaningful classes that I hadthat semester.
(04:40):
It was a very long class thathad extraordinarily precise
timing from nine to noon andthen from one to four we had
class and I'm saying thatbecause it really matters to
this story that this was theonly day that that precise
timing of lunch, being exactlyfrom noon to 1pm, did not happen
.
Lunch was bumped 20 minutesBecause what happened that day
(05:04):
is there was a school shootingthat took place, and I would
have been right in the center ofthe worst of it had I gone to
lunch at that moment that wewere scheduled to.
What did happen is that duringthe school shooting, I was stuck
in a classroom on the path forthe shooter to be.
He was opening the doors andgoing into a bunch of classes
and doing terrible things, and Ihad to be stuck in a dark
(05:28):
classroom hiding with myclassmates for 45 minutes
listening as he got closer andcloser to where we were, and I
truly believed that that wasgoing to be my last day on earth
, all signs were pointing to thelikelihood that I very well may
(05:49):
not make it through this, and Ihad something really
interesting happen that I feellike is appropriate to talk
about on this podcast, where Ihad a moment where it was the
panic and the fear was reallyrising and I really was having
(06:09):
that escalated sense of all thefear that was very contagious in
the classroom.
There was stifled sobs andcries that were happening all
over the place.
Also, to give context, all thecommunications went down on the
island of Montreal, because itwas such a huge college that
this took place at DawsonCollege in Montreal in 2006 that
everyone was trying to reachtheir loved ones, and so all the
(06:32):
cell towers got overloaded andno one could reach anybody.
And so when that happened, whenthat moment of people are
reaching out, texting, callingtheir people, being reached out
to, that was already being you,you know an escalated moment.
But then, when no one couldreach anybody, the fear and
intensity of that panic rose foreveryone in a really
(06:53):
significant way, and I feltmyself have a fork in the road
moment and I it's like I caughtthe scent.
I caught the whiff of analternate option to more fear,
and I don't know what in me wasallowing myself to even notice
that that was an option or whatallowed me to choose it.
But I do feel like it was acomplete and utter game changer
(07:18):
of my life.
Not just of that moment where,instead of continuing to feel
afraid, I got very still andcalm and grounded.
I felt very in my body.
I felt very capable of action.
I had a clear action plan of ifthe shooter came in, this was
my next step.
All these things.
I was able to think through thequote problem.
(07:40):
I just felt like I surrenderedto the moment in a way, with
this radical self-acceptance andradical acceptance of
everything that allowed me tofeel tremendous peace and to
know that if my actions did notallow my life to be saved, if
this day really did claim mylife, then it's okay, I felt at
(08:04):
peace with that, and then agroup of police officers, maybe
five minutes later, came intothe class and escorted us to a
position of safety and wesecretly, silently, went outside
of this back staircase and wegot outside and the sunshine hit
(08:24):
my face and I took a deepbreath and I realized that I was
actually going to be alive fora while longer.
It connected me in this veryintensely visceral and beautiful
way to the feeling of alivenessand also courage.
(08:47):
If I am prepared to die withpeace, then I am prepared to
live with courage.
And it changed everythingmoving forward, changed all of
my decisions after that point.
John Moir (09:03):
Did any of your other classmates have similar
experiences to that, Carmen?
Carmen Theobald (09:08):
I ended up leaving school and it sounds
like well, yeah, of course, butI actually wasn't leaving to run
away from school.
I didn't have hardly anypost-traumatic stress symptoms
being at school.
I had a few dreams, but it werequite minimal.
I would really describe thisexperience as post-traumatic
(09:29):
growth, but what that also meantis that I wasn't as in contact
with the people who were in myclass anymore, because what I
was really doing leaving wasgoing toward what my heart was
telling me to go toward Choosing, to spend my time with people
in places that really filled meup in a way that I just wasn't
able to access in school.
Although I loved studying whatI was studying, I knew I needed
(09:50):
to leave school and I needed toleave Montreal.
Something else was calling me.
I couldn't articulate it, Icouldn't quite put it into frame
yet, but I knew I had to havecourageous choices, to follow my
heart, and that's what I did.
So, to answer your question, Idon't really know.
Maybe I hope so, for them but Idon't know.
John Moir (10:08):
And so that was the beginning of your new journey.
Carmen Theobald (10:10):
That was the beginning of my new journey.
So I left Montreal to govolunteer on a farm for room and
board.
Although there can be lots ofamazing things said about my
family, that I do have a lot oflove, there was also a lot of
harm harm and it was soimportant to get out of that
space and to follow what myheart was telling me to do.
So I got on this bus and took aleap of faith and thought I was
(10:34):
going to be volunteering atthis farm for room and board
that had vegetable gardens,maple syrup and 24 horses.
I thought I was going to bethere for two weeks.
Turns out I was there almosttwo years and it opened the door
to me working with horsesprofessionally.
I got an apprenticeship as afarrier, so that's a person who
takes care of horses' feet.
(10:54):
I put shoes on horses, I trimtheir feet.
I've worked with thousands ofhorses now in that way and that
led me to the work that I'mexcited to really talk about
more at some point with you.
But all of those pieces of thatjourney would not have been
possible had I not had this kindof post-traumatic growth life
expansiveness that is woven withgrief but also completely
(11:17):
life-opening and life-affirming.
John Moir (11:20):
What brought you to the idea of working with horses?
What?
Carmen Theobald (11:23):
brought you to the idea of working with horses.
Well, it was my mother, whoknew that I wasn't doing well in
school emotionally and althoughI did very well with my grades,
it was not good for me, and shecould tell and she knew that I
might want to try some kind ofadventure.
So she was very supportive ofthat at the beginning.
My father not so much, but shelearned about this program
(11:45):
called WOOF, which is WillingWorkers on Organic Farms Also.
Another acronym could beWorldwide Opportunities on
Organic Farms, and so at thetime it was a paper booklet.
Now, of course, it's all online, but you get a whole list of
farms in the country you sign upfor, and so I signed up for
Canada.
I got the $40 booklet that wasfor Canada and they list out all
of these different farm optionswhere people are willing to be
(12:07):
hosts and wanting you to comeand volunteer in doing this
exchange.
So I just read these littleparagraph descriptions and of
course it was the one withhorses that was telling me I
want to go there, and I'm soglad that I did.
Now I have a business calledHorse Sense North and we offer
personal growth, leadership andteam development and we do a lot
of trauma recovery work withthe help of horses and we work
(12:28):
with a lot of first responders,military, public safety
personnel.
Many of the people within thefirst responder and military
community are men.
Many of those people areresistant to getting some kind
of emotional, mental healthsupport.
Horses tend to be a reallyhelpful piece to break through
(12:50):
that barrier.
But when it comes to thetherapy work with horses and
horses period, I think theyreally cross all genders.
I think they really crosscultures.
I think the horses really areable to have this beautiful way
of just touching our heartregardless of what our human
lives and experiences are reallydetailed on, but just about
(13:11):
being alive with them, helpingus remind us that we're part of
nature with them and inspiringus to be healthy versions of who
we are.
John Moir (13:24):
Are the horses themselves predominantly female
the ones that we work with?
Carmen Theobald (13:30):
Yes, Right now we actually have a herd that is
all geldings, so males, who have, uh, no longer the ability to
reproduce.
Um, which is funny to me,because, if anything, I, if
someone had asked me if I have apreference, I probably would
have said mares, so femalehorses, not because I really
like them more, but just becausethat's who's been my like
closest connections over theyears, but just because that's
(13:53):
who's been my closestconnections over the years, but
just because of circumstance, wehave mostly male horses, only
male horses, right now on siteand that's going to change and
ebb and flow.
And our herd right now they'reincredible and I think that,
just like any profession or anygroup, yes, gender has a part to
play, it has influence, it has,you know, there's information
there, but it does not in anyway mean anything more than just
(14:16):
little bits of insight intothat individual.
It doesn't mean that they can'tbe incredible beings or have
incredible challenges orwhatever that story might be.
So it's really neat to havethis herd right now, also
because for many years to havethis herd right now, also
because for many years they hada female leader, they had a
matriarch.
Her name was Grace and she wastruly the most phenomenal leader
(14:43):
of humans, horses and allspecies I have ever come across.
She was my first horse.
I worked with horses for a longtime before I officially took
one into my family because Iknew it was a lifelong
commitment that I was resistinga little bit.
But she came along and I knewit had to be her and she was the
first horse that came to myfarm and she has been the leader
(15:05):
of many iterations of our herdhere, as we've had other
people's horses stay with us, aswe've had horses pass away, as
we've had new horses come.
She's been the leader foralmost a decade.
And when she passed away a yearand a half ago, of course I was
probably the mostgrief-stricken I've ever been in
my life.
She was truly my best friendand my closest working partner
(15:27):
in what we do.
But I was also concernedbecause I was worried like, well
, what's the herd dynamic goingto be like?
Because you know horses, I seehorses at so many different
farms.
In my role as a farrier, I seeso many different herds and
sometimes those herds arepeaceful, sometimes they're not.
It has a lot to do with theleadership.
It has a lot to do with what'sthe tone being set about what
(15:52):
kind of behavior is allowed andnot allowed.
Is it kind of more of abullying environment?
Is it more of a collaborativeenvironment?
Is there a horse that's willingto like put the law down, like,
put their foot down, literallytheir hoof, and say we don't
treat each other that way?
Or are they the one who areactually like role modeling
unhealthy behavior?
Who are actually like rolemodeling unhealthy behavior?
(16:15):
And so Grace just had such abeautiful combination of being
an incredibly powerful beingwhere she wouldn't let anyone
get away with anything but shewas so generous and kind and
warm and considerate and wouldshare the hay and share the
water and be so inclusive andreally welcoming and just have
(16:35):
this deep, deep heart connectionand have that simultaneously
with this super deep, groundedpower.
And what that's done with hermatriarchal leadership style is
it's infused this herd ofgeldings, this group of males,
males to have the same kind ofculture, even without her here.
(16:56):
That is carrying on, even aswe've had a new herd member
integrate who's coming withdifferent kinds of ways of
engaging socially, used to otherkinds of more like, you know,
bickering or bullying tacticsand this and that.
But it's amazing to watch howthe herd actually is carrying on
the values that they've allreally healed with.
(17:18):
They've all done healing cycleswith that kind of leadership
and the new herd member is nowintegrating in the same kind of
way.
Some of the ways we always workthe horses at Liberty they're
never with a rope or a halter on.
They're in a space with us, anenclosure, so they can move
around.
Liberty they're never with arope or a halter on they're in a
space with us, an enclosure, sothey can move around freely.
They're not going to run awaytoo far, but they can be quite a
(17:38):
distance from the human sothey're never forced to do or be
anything.
They're also always volunteers,our horses, so we're never
going out to the field andsaying, okay, it's your turn to
work today.
We're saying who wants to worktoday?
And we always get someonevolunteering.
They kind of like go back andforth and then someone will walk
over, like they haven't figuredout.
(17:59):
Sometimes they just give a verysubtle cue of like, okay,
they'll put their head up like,hey, come on over, come get me,
and then they'll be very obviousin how they want their head to
go in the halter.
But if they show body languageof like actually in the halter.
But if they show body languageof like actually no, I changed
my mind or I don't want to dothis then we listen to that.
They're allowed to have theirno, they're allowed to have
their boundaries, their respectin that process.
So the kind of partnership wehave with them needs to be, in
(18:22):
my view, for all work withhorses, but especially what
we're doing here.
It's our value system that wereally need to be in healthy,
mutually respectful relationship.
Because if you're not, thenwe're working and learning with
horses but it's not going to benecessarily in true spiritual
alignment for them if we'reusing them as a tool.
(18:45):
So how do we really learn how topartner in healthy relationship
with them so they can show upin the fullness of who they are
and really teach us as spiritualbeings?
So I hope that I can, you know,not sound too woo-woo on this
podcast about that, but reallythe stuff that I see the horses
do with humans, it crosses outof that kind of just a very
(19:06):
science-based world, because thehorses are very spiritual
animals.
The horses are incrediblyemotionally attuned and they're
really sensing us at a heartlevel.
It's like they see through allthe armor.
They see through all the masksand they're like I'm just going
to respond to your heart and toyour spirit and I'm going to
engage with you in a way that isexactly what is needed for you
(19:26):
to grow with this very direct,clear body language.
But that's also safe andnon-judgmental.
And it's remarkable whathappens when we learn how to be
with them in that kind of takingthe mask off, taking the armor
off space, learning how to landin our heart and learning to
(19:50):
connect with our spirit together.
Whether that language fits forsomeone or not, I don't always
bring it in, but really that'swhat they're doing.
They're asking us to develop abetter relationship with them,
which ultimately meansdeveloping a better relationship
with our spirit.
John Moir (20:04):
Yes, I remember being shown a movie.
It was about a family who hadtaken their young autistic son
to Mongolia Horseboy yes, ofcourse you would have seen that.
Carmen Theobald (20:17):
Yeah, rupert's in, yeah, yeah.
John Moir (20:20):
I'll leave some show notes about Horseboy.
It was quite an amazing story.
How much has working with thehorses changed you?
The shamanism is all aboutspirit and we're all connected
to everything.
Why wouldn't they be?
That's what makes the world sowonderful that we can
communicate and be taught byliterally everything around us.
That's right, and it's whatmakes us richer.
(20:42):
So I'm just wondering, beforewe get on to first responders,
what you could share about yourdevelopment.
Carmen Theobald (20:50):
Absolutely Well , when I first arrived to that
farm that I was volunteering atwhen I left Montreal, I'd had a
handful of horse experiencesbefore then maybe a trail ride
one summer and then another timeI got to pet a horse, and then
a trail ride another summer, youknow, but really so minimal.
So when I arrived to this farm,I knew nothing, and the horses
(21:12):
at this particular location wereactually quite dangerous.
I didn't know it at the time,but they had a lot of people
like myself handling them wherethey didn't know anything about
horses, and so the horses wereconstantly learning that they
could be in charge and that theycould be very kind of bullying
(21:32):
in their behavior.
They were quite dangerous, tobe very frank, but what I
learned quickly is that itwasn't because that they were
malicious or because they wantedto take advantage.
It's because they wereconstantly searching for a sense
of safety and they were sayinghuman, are you able to be a
leader that I need you to be?
And if not, then I guess I'm onmy own.
(21:53):
And if I'm on my own, I'm notgoing to be paying as much
attention to you, because I'mjust really worried about my own
safety, because I feel like I'mvery at risk, and so there's
more injuries that are going tohappen because I'm just paying
attention to my environment,about what I'm afraid of instead
of what you're telling me.
And so I started to work withthis one horse, contessa.
(22:17):
So, despite her kind of divaself, of course, she still had
this very pure and kind heart asa horse this being that doesn't
have any malicious intent, evenif she's got a big, strong
personality.
And I started to work with herat this farm, and what she
started to teach me is the themeof what I've been learning with
horses for the thousands ofhorses that I've now worked with
(22:39):
and that continues to be thekind of core piece of learning
that I keep doing and that I seeclients do as well.
And what she was teaching me isthat I needed to be able to be
powerful and gentle at the sametime.
Not powerful one moment andthen gentle the next.
That's just confusing but to bereally able to land in my heart
(23:02):
and in my body in this way thathas this deep, grounded
confidence, without shutting myheart off.
And so, whether that's, how dowe set a boundary in a way
that's not shutting offconnection, but that's still
very clear.
How do I step into a leadershipposition to say, hey, it's okay
, if you're afraid of this thing, let me show you that it's
(23:23):
actually not so scary, but I'mnot going to minimize your fear?
How can I really validate thisbeing while staying safe myself?
And so it's that combination ofhow do we be strong and kind,
how do we be gentle and powerfulas a whole unit, not as two
ends of a spectrum.
They keep inviting me to findthat middle point of bringing
(23:44):
them together in a paradoxicalway.
John Moir (23:48):
Nice.
Carmen Theobald (24:27):
Does that affect your relationships?
With that, can I have moreacceptance for myself about that
, and then can I have growth andlearning and transformation
with that?
And then, of course, that iscompletely impacting all of my
relationships, whether it'ssomeone that I meet on the
street or who's cashing me outat the grocery store, or my
partner, or a businessrelationship, or a friend or a
(24:49):
client.
It's everyone, because I thinkrelationship is at the core of
our entire life.
John Moir (24:57):
Well said, I want to know about your first responder
people.
Being a retired paramedic, I'mcertainly aware of the effects
of trauma response in people andwe had a few episodes that
spoke to PTSD.
So yeah, I've seen it.
(25:17):
I felt it in my own body.
I had a bit of a philosophicalapproach to my work.
That developed a spiritualitythat started earlier for me and
it really changed the way that Iwas working in EMS and I think
that helped me quite a bit.
But I used to always say thatthose big calls that nobody
should be part of or see we allleave a little part of ourselves
(25:40):
behind and as I got more intoshamanism later on, years after
I realized that language wasreally expressing, I'm feeling
so lost.
Yeah, yeah.
So tell us more about yourresponders.
Carmen Theobald (26:00):
Thank you so much for sharing that, john.
I feel as though our clientswho we're working with from that
public safety personnelbackground would deeply relate
to that background, would deeplyrelate to that, and it's such
an honor for me to be able towork with those who serve our
communities, and serving thosewho serve others truly is the
(26:21):
most important thing I can dowith my time.
I know that at a visceral levelbecause of some of my
experiences, including thatschool shooting from all the
first responders that made itpossible for me to be alive that
day, including that schoolshooting from all the first
responders that made it possiblefor me to be alive that day and
also just as a member of thecommunity, as a person of this
world really deeply appreciatingand valuing the service that
people like yourself haveoffered to the communities that
(26:43):
you support.
And so, as I built Horse SenseNorth and started to do more of
this horse and human wellnesswork and then transitioned more
and more into the therapeuticside, working with therapists,
working with other mental healthproviders, it was so clear that
the population I was the mostpassionate about was this public
safety personnel community, andwe also had a lot of these
(27:05):
individuals coming to see us,even without a program
specifically for them, and itjust really affirmed that.
And I think that's again wherethe horses really draw in people
who are coming from all walksof life.
But I think that they have aspecial gift.
The horses have a special giftof kind of crossing that barrier
that's sometimes there forpeople who need to be incredibly
(27:26):
strong for their job, for theirlife, for their lifestyle, that
it can be very hard to leaninto different kinds of support
and different kinds of softnessand vulnerability within the
self when there's so much ofthat armoring up and putting the
uniform on and living in thatkind of way for just being able
to keep going.
And the horses offer thisexample, this kind of
(27:50):
inspiration, this beacon of hope, if you will, that we can
actually learn how to bevulnerable and do the healing
work without losing our strength.
And I think that's a little bitof what they invite.
So, working with people fromthese backgrounds, it's very
clear that.
(28:11):
Well, a couple of things I wantto say about that.
One post-traumatic stress is soinevitable in the kinds of work
that you do.
How can you possibly expect ahuman to be exposed to these
things over and over and notcarry so much of that weight and
not have this soul death orthis losing of yourself that
(28:35):
happens over time Be part ofthat to a degree, especially
when there's not a lot ofsupport around that.
And the other thing I want tosay on that note is that the
vast majority of people who wetalk to and who we support will
very often say that yes, thevery hard calls were
(28:57):
extraordinarily difficult and ina lot of ways it's the
organizational trauma, thesanctuary trauma, that impacted
them more painfully, because wego to those calls, we have those
experiences and then we comeback to the place that's
(29:17):
supposed to keep us safe andsupposed to support us and
supposed to have our back and itdoesn't and it doesn't validate
our experience and it actuallymakes us feel weak for being
human and having human responses.
John Moir (29:29):
I would agree with that.
Carmen Theobald (29:30):
Yeah, yeah, and in my own personal way, which
of course is not the same livedexperience, but I can relate in
the sense and that's why I bringup my family home, because that
kind of complex trauma thathappens in these little cuts,
sometimes big cuts over a longtime, whether they're
metaphorical cuts or not thoselittle wounds added up daily,
(29:53):
yearly for decades.
that adds so much challengethat's actually more difficult
to come through than the one bigexperience of, in my example, a
school shooting.
Now, of course, I had aparticularly powerful spiritual
growth moment in that, and whatI keep hearing over and over
(30:14):
again from people like yourselfis that there's these two kind
of categories of what they'recarrying as far as wounding and
difficulty, and that woundingand the difficulty of the place
that's supposed to be safe notbeing safe, and the
relationships, that relationalsupport that's supposed to be
there within the organization tobuffer the hard calls actually
(30:35):
makes them harder, or it's justnot there.
How painful and how devastatingthat is.
So I'm very grateful to havespaces where people get to not
only be together with others whocan relate, but also practice.
What can it mean to have thebody feel safer?
What can it mean to really leaninto a space that feels
(30:58):
protected in the way that we'veneeded it to feel protected,
even if it's not changing thegreater organization, giving us
some of that medicine, if youwill, that we've been lacking,
some of those essentialnutrients that we have been
malnourished with?
And the horses help us practicethat, they help us live it and
they help us bring it back intoour day-to-day life.
(31:19):
So I think the ripple effect ofthat whether it's horsework or
anything else, but the rippleeffect of connecting back with
the parts of ourselves that havebeen wounded, is healing not
just for us, but for everyone wecome in contact with.
John Moir (31:35):
Give me an example of a first responder coming in and
meeting the horse and whattakes place.
Carmen Theobald (31:41):
Sure, I'll share the story of this person
who I have a wonderful ongoingrelationship with and she would
be fine with me sharing thisstory.
I won't say her name.
She arrived to the farm andthis actually is a story
connected to Grace and animportant piece about Grace.
(32:05):
Although she's no longer withus, she's really a pinnacle of a
lot of things that we talkabout and do still and will
continue to be.
She grew up in the RCMP musicalride.
So it's this program in Canada,the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police they have for horses, butit's not militaristic structure
of the RCMP, which alsoreflects the very heavy handed
(32:34):
approach and because there's notthe safety requirement of
learning how to partner togetherfor safe patrolling, it tends
to have really prettydevastating impacts where the
main modes of quote training arereally just abuse tactics.
And I'm saying this withevidence.
There's been reports about this.
(32:55):
Grace was purchased by afarrier client of mine, taking
her out of the RCP when she wasabout 12 years old and she was
rearing and biting and strikingat the officers just trying to
put her halter on the most basicpiece of equipment.
And so, long story short, gracehad suffered a tremendous
amount of abuse.
Her fight response was verystrong because she didn't trust
(33:19):
that these people were nottrying to hurt her.
And when I took her on fromthis client although she had
settled down a little bit, Iwouldn't say she was in any way,
shape or form a safe therapypartner, like I didn't even
think she would necessarily besafe for me all the time, never
mind another person, never minda client.
But what happened is that aftermany cycles of healing she
(33:40):
became incredibly skilled athelping other people, very calm,
very regulated.
Our relationship helped herstay grounded in that ability to
do that with other people.
And if someone had asked mewould she be safe to work with
clients, especially from like amilitary or policing or public
(34:01):
safety personnel background, Iwould have said that's a
beautiful idea, but I'd bereally worried about that
because it could really activateher, bring up some old memories
.
But it turns out that's thepopulation she wanted to work
with the most.
It's as if she wanted to helpthem have healing just like she
had.
And so this client when sheshowed up to work with one of
(34:22):
her horses I never know whowhich horse is going to be,
because the horses volunteer andit turns out that this
particular day this client waslooking at grace going oh, I
really hope it's not her.
There was something in her thatknew it was going to be very
challenging.
She was like, oh, this is goingto be tough.
But it turns out Gracevolunteered and I didn't know
(34:43):
this person's background.
This person came with anaddictions recovery center that
we do some work with.
I knew enough about her to havea safe workshop, but I didn't
know that she actually had abackground in a similar line of
work as Grace.
And it turns out that not onlydoes she have a policing
background, she also has aleadership role within the
(35:03):
organization.
And Grace's story and thisclient's story are so parallel
in the kinds of abuse thatthey've experienced, in the
kinds of suffering that they'vehad, in the kinds of responses
that they've experienced, in thekinds of suffering that they've
had, in the kinds of responsesthat they've had to this kind of
trauma.
And Grace had a big visceralreaction to this client, more
than I was expecting.
So before the client even wentin, grace was running around and
(35:25):
she was doing all this stuffand the client stood up and said
I think it's because of me.
I think I know what's happeningand as I helped the client calm
her own nervous system.
Grace mirrored that and had acomplete change, as did the
client.
The client went in, had a horsesession with Grace.
(35:46):
After Grace showed me that itwas safe to do so, grace showed
me that it was safe to do so andthere was such powerful,
powerful connection betweenthese two beings where this
client describes it that herheart was black, almost like a
dead black heart, and that dayit started beating again and
(36:08):
that grace saw into her soul andhelped almost bring her back to
life.
And this is several years ago.
And now I'm so thrilled to saythat this client is now actually
back to work.
Not that needs to always be thegoal at all, but just
remarkable that's where she's atin her own life is that she
actually chose to go back towork at this point because she
(36:29):
actually feels well enough andthat's part of her purpose of
going back to change some things.
So how remarkable that kind ofhealing journey that Grace went
on is being not only mirrored inthe abuse that they suffered
with this client, but also thatthis client is able to do that
same kind of healing journeyherself.
John Moir (36:48):
It's an amazing story and I don't think that one
needs to try to dissect whatkind of communication could have
taken place, because it doesn'tuse words, does it?
Carmen Theobald (36:58):
That's the thing.
And that's the thing with allthe horse experiences.
John Moir (37:01):
They're going to all be different and there's through
lines with all of them that wecan use words, because sometimes
they help us connect to partsof ourselves, but ultimately
they don't really matter how tobe, and is there a different
response between males andfemale clients like more closed
down versus women be moreinclined to talk about emotions
(37:28):
and feelings, whereas men don'twant to talk about anything at
all, especially in firstresponders?
I think for myself and other ofmy colleagues it's all about
control you know, that we'rehere to take care of, bring
order to the chaos, so to speak,and we can't.
We've got a job to do, sobuckle down and let's get it
(37:49):
done, kind of thing.
Carmen Theobald (37:50):
That's right.
I've definitely seen thatenergy from all genders when
they come through.
There can be more of apredominance of some of those
qualities with men, but in thatfield I think that really draws
out those qualities and attractspeople of those qualities,
regardless of gender.
Again, the horse is to show upvery authentically in that.
(38:10):
And so if the person's cominginto the ring with the horse
with this sense of healthy power, I'll say of like being very
confident and grounded but stillopen in their heart, then the
horses love that.
They can recognize the strengthof that person that exists.
But if that person is leaningonly on the power side and
closing their heart off, soreally leaning toward the
(38:31):
control, the horse doesn't wantanything to do with them until
they shift that.
And so I think one of theamazing things with the horse
work, especially for the firstresponder, public safety
personnel community, is that wedon't have to have the story.
Not that there's anything wrongwith that if people want it.
But we actually don't havetrauma talk at our programs.
Of course people are stillspeaking to each other, but
(38:53):
we're intentionally not goinginto the stories.
We're intentionally not goingtoo deep into.
You know, let's have thiscathartic, emotional release.
That's not what this is about.
It's actually learning how tobe in relationship in a very
healing way, and so the horsesprovide this powerful motivator
(39:13):
and a very honest mirror,because we want to be in
connection with them.
We want to be in relation withthem and we want to show our
peers, who are watching us, thatwe can do that.
And when we struggle with it,not only is that so relatable
and makes everyone feel safer,because we can all be vulnerable
about it, but it's also thehorses who just show us that
(39:37):
it's okay if we're not gettingit.
It's okay if we're not in that.
They're not judging us for that.
They're not saying you're a badperson because you're
struggling to let go of somecontrol or open up your heart in
this moment.
But they're also not going tolike people please us about it.
They're not going to go.
Oh, it's fine.
John Moir (39:54):
Don't worry honey.
Carmen Theobald (39:55):
They're not a dog, they're not going to go.
I'm going to love anyway andjust be really cuddly with you,
no matter what state you're in.
Horses are not like that.
So when we're not in that kindof aligned place with both heart
and power, with healthystrength, with healthy
connection, they're just goingto show us that.
And as soon as we make any kindof direction toward more
(40:19):
balance, more alignment, theyreward us for that and they
really honor us in that byauthentic connection when we
find it.
John Moir (40:30):
After these engagements take place, carmen,
what's it like for them to saygoodbye at the end of the day or
the end of their week, orhowever the sessions are planned
out?
Carmen Theobald (40:41):
The vast majority of people who come
truly do have transformativeexperiences.
So I think it's a real mix ofwhat it's like at the end,
because on one hand there issuch an increased sense of hope
and energy and commitment tolife and commitment to
(41:04):
themselves and relationships ina new way, so there's almost an
excitement to go back into theirlife to see how they can apply
it and then, at the same time,there's almost an excitement to
go back into their life to seehow they can apply it and then
at the same time, there's agrief.
(41:26):
There's a deep grief becausesometimes these connections with
horses are actually the mostconnected they've ever felt in
their entire lived experience.
So to say goodbye to the horsesand goodbye to the environment
and the group that also was avery safe container is difficult
and it requires we do our bestto do a wind down and a wrap up
in a way that can carry thosepieces forward as best as
possible and invite continuedinteraction with different kinds
(41:47):
of programming that we mightoffer.
But sometimes people come andvolunteer like there's ways that
people can keep in touch, butultimately that's not possible
for everybody and it can be areal mixed bag.
But I think that's the case formost things right, like if
something's really powerful andimpactful in a positive way.
There's such a joy from thatand there's also a grief of when
(42:09):
might I find that again.
My hope and what I encourageand what I've heard from people
who return, is that there areways to bring that back into
their world.
It's not the same, but it'sthat ripple effect that we can
carry that light that weaccessed in ourselves and really
literally share that and spreadthat out with others.
John Moir (42:34):
I find that Patricia and I had led some grief
workshops, just doing othershamanic healings with groups of
people.
I find that whenever groupscome together and they do any
kind of spiritual work, it's avery intimate experience because
it's all energetic, it's of theheart, the mind doesn't have
(42:56):
anything to do with it, but it'sthis heart-to-heart connection
and we do form energeticconnections between people and
horses and other places.
But it is a longing that'screated if we leave each other.
Carmen Theobald (43:10):
Absolutely.
One benefit of having verysmall groups is when we're
working with people and horses,it's a maximum of five people at
a time.
I do work with bigger groupsfor leadership and this, and
that when it's not directly withthe horses but for this kind of
trauma work especially.
One of the really beautifulthings that I've seen happen is
that we've had a couple of theseprogram groups stay in touch
(43:33):
and they have sometimes weeklymeetings with each other, and
it's been almost a couple ofyears now that one group is
continuing to meet on a veryregular basis.
So we might find support inways that are ongoing, no matter
what kind of environmentprogram we might be attending.
But those connections, theydon't have to always just end
there, because exactly whatyou're just saying, john, that
(43:56):
it is so intimate, it is soconnected in the heart, and how
wonderful when we createcommunities of care that can
continue to support us.
John Moir (44:06):
One last question for you, carmen.
So what happens to the horsesafter they've invested this time
with their human companions,when the companion now has to
leave?
Is there any reciprocity at all?
Carmen Theobald (44:21):
Well, I think that the horses in my view they
have such an open capacity toaccess love and connection that
they don't necessarily gothrough the same level of grief
that the clients are goingthrough leaving because they get
to experience so muchconnection in their day-to-day
life all the time.
(44:42):
It's a consistent thing forthem.
It's not just because they'rehorses and they know how to do
that.
It's also because theenvironment here for them is
very supportive and safe, and sowhen clients are not around,
the horses are getting a lot ofdifferent kinds of care.
The horses are really supported.
I work with them regularly tomake sure that their needs are
getting met.
When they're not on the job, soto speak, they also have a lot
(45:04):
of releasing.
That they do because sometimesthey take things on for people.
They carry some of thoseemotional burdens.
Yeah, and so they take that onenergetically and then they see
how they release it back out inthe field.
They might go for a run, theymight roll, they might shake,
they might have a big buck and akick.
And we also do like things thathelp support them with that as
well, so different kinds of bodywork and energy work and things
(45:25):
that really kind of help keepthings flowing for them.
Of course, just likeprofessionals who work with the
public, horses who work with thepublic, they're going to have
individuals who they have anextra close relationship with
sometimes.
And what's beautiful to see isthat when we have some of those
clients return, that client Iwas describing who worked with
Grace, she's returned many times.
(45:46):
Grace and her have had have itdepends how you want to look at
it Grace and her have had haveit depends how you want to look
at it an incredibly closerelationship in many ways and
forms.
So it's not so much that I sawGrace being upset when this
client left, but I definitelysaw her light up when she would
come back.
John Moir (46:05):
Oh, beautiful.
Well, thank you for all of this, carmen, and thank you for
sharing your thoughts andexplaining what first responders
can look forward to should theyengage your services.
So thank you very much.
Thank you, john, it's such apleasure to be here.
Thank you for joining us inthis heartfelt conversation with
(46:27):
Carmen.
May her story inspire courageand healing, and remember you're
never alone on your journey, sotake care and stay connected.
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