February 10, 2024 • 35 mins
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Personal Reflections and Insights on Forest Therapy Walks
Feel the pulsing heartbeat of the earth and the whisper of leaves as Brenda Martin, a forest therapy guide, leads us on a quest for tranquillity amid the forests' embrace. Her insights promise more than just a walk among trees; they offer a doorway to the soul's unspoken dialogue with nature. In today's episode, we traverse the tender practice of forest bathing, a journey that requires no special fitness level, just an open heart. Brenda peels back the layers of our everyday hustle to reveal a world where every breath and step can heal, where stillness speaks, and where the more-than-human world cradles us in its verdant arms.
As we meander along, the forest's symphony serenades our senses, with Brenda orchestrating an experience of profound connections and shared humanity. Each participant's narrative weaves into the forest's tapestry, revealing insights into our existence and the communal spirit that flourishes in these shared spaces. Brenda's transformation into a certified guide illuminates the path for us, showing how trust in the forest's guidance can lead to startling self-discovery. So tune in, and let the wisdom of the woods wash over you, as we uncover the healing rhythms of forest therapy walks with the guidance of a soul who has listened and learned from the most ancient of teachers—the Earth itself.
Our thanks go out to our intrepid forest bather- Pat Kemp for sharing her experiences.
🌳
ANFT: https://www.anft.earth/guide-training/immersions
Brenda Martin: https://www.soulfulgatherings.ca/
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Foundation for Shamanic Studies: Explore here
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John@urbangriefshamans.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John (01:41):
In today's episode, we explore forest bathing with
Brenda Martin, a guide trainedby the Association of Nature and
Forest Therapy.
Brenda emphasizes that forestbathing is more than a walk in
nature.
It's an immersive experience,encouraging a deep connection
with the environment.
This practice, rooted inmindfulness, yet is seen as
(02:01):
being different fromconventional hiking.
Brenda's approach andphilosophy underscores the
importance of presence andsensory engagement to fully
experience the therapeuticaspect of the forest.
Brenda emphasizes foresttherapy walks are accessible to
everyone, regardless of one'sphysical fitness.
Brenda sees her role asfacilitating invitations for
(02:23):
participants to interact withtheir surroundings, making it
personal and adaptableexperience.
Really, the essence of forestbathing is allowing nature to be
the therapist, while Brenda ismerely opening doors to personal
experiences with the naturalworld.
Good morning, brenda.
I'm speaking with Brenda Martintoday and we're going to talk
(02:46):
about forest bathing.
We're going to just talk abouthow it started and how you got
into this.
I was just wondering if youcould explain for our listeners
what is forest bathing.
Brenda (03:01):
Sure thing, thanks.
Thank you, john, for invitingme onto this podcast.
When I got into Forest Bathing,I didn't even know that name, I
Somebody mentioned in thesession bathing.
I was introduced to it becausesaid that I thought, well, I
have been through theAssociation of Nature and Forest
.
My training is based onRinyoku, Japanese They is a they
had training as a foresttherapy guide.
taking Another course.
It was during COVID, and therewere all Therapy sounds are
really interesting.
online courses.
sounds looked more into that.
(03:31):
It's been around since the 80sand is basically translated
into forest bathing.
I think sometimes when peoplehear about forest bathing, they
(03:53):
think you're going to take alltheir clothes off and whatever
and jump into the leaves.
It's really quite differentfrom that.
The research shows that justspending time in nature is
healthy.
There's a lot of research tosupport that.
That is not really my interest.
(04:14):
My interest is more theexperience of being in nature
when I take someone on a foresttherapy walk, the whole idea.
It's so contrary to how most ofus live our lives that we're
very goal-oriented.
We're in our heads.
You've got that noisy voicethat haunts us sometimes and
(04:37):
motivates us.
It's not a bad thing.
Getting into forest bathing orforest therapy is just a chance
to slow down and have arelationship with nature.
That's as simple as that.
Sometimes when people come intomy sessions they think it's
(04:59):
going to be a hike.
It's going to be, they have tobe really physically fit, but
it's not.
I love hiking, but it's not ahike.
It's very, very gentle I wouldsay a gentle stroll.
There's really no goal.
Idea of nature and foresttherapy is nature, is the
(05:20):
therapist, the guide, helps openthe doors.
Your individual experience withnature is what you're going to
get out of the walk.
John (05:34):
Can I just walk you back to the path that you take your
clients on, your friends.
Is it an established path?
Are you walking through kind ofa more pristine, in the sense
that people haven't walked alongthat aspect of the forests?
Brenda (05:56):
There are so many ways to do a forest therapy walk.
Some people do it if you're inan urban area, beside like one
tree, so it's veryindividualized.
For the ones that I do here insouthern Ontario I have
particular forest parks.
Actually these are conservationareas that I feel very
(06:20):
connected to.
So before I do the walk I spendtime myself in nature and
develop that relationship aspermission.
The whole idea is that it's arelationship between humans and
the more than human world.
So when I go into that forest Ikind of get a sense of where I'm
(06:45):
going to take that group.
So I would never go into aforest therapy walk without
first spending quite a bit oftime that day because even the
forest changes.
Even when I use the same parkit's different every day.
So I don't go deeply into theforest and it's more very
(07:05):
accessible for people with allkinds of different physical
barriers.
So I really try to make it avery gentle invitation and if
people want to, they have timewithin that walk to go further
exploring.
But to be honest, in southernOntario you're not going to get
lost in the woods.
John (07:26):
They're not back here you just have to listen for the
nearest roadway, exactly andclothing-wise, just before we
move on from that.
Shoes what do they typicallydress?
Bug spray, I imagine would beimportant.
Brenda (07:42):
Yeah, I usually recommend that they wear shoes.
The place I most like to takepeople for the walks is along
Lake Erie, so I ask them to wearshoes that they can walk along
on the rocks, waterproof longpants, because we also part of
(08:03):
being a guide is being aware ofany of the hazards that might be
on the walk, for example,uneven ground, poison, ivy,
ticks, whatever might behappening.
So it's part of the guide's jobto make people aware of maybe
making sure they stay on thepaths and stay away from those
(08:23):
hazards.
I'm also trained in WildernessFirst Aid, so not that I've had
to use it because I really don'ttake people on treacherous
walks at all, but anything canhappen.
So the thing is to keep peoplesafe, dress for the weather in
layers.
There's quite a bit of time ona walk where you're sitting and
(08:43):
not being very active, so justmaking sure you're going to be
comfortable.
I have those stools that we goout on if people want to use a
stool.
The walks are usually about twoand a half hours, so, yeah,
just to be prepared for thattime, bring along a bottle of
water, make sure you have yourwashroom break ahead of time and
that kind of….
John (09:03):
And some snacks, I would imagine.
Is there any specifictechniques or practices that a
beginner needs to work on beforethey go out with you at all?
Brenda (09:15):
No, they just….
The whole idea of the walk isthat it's absolutely for that
person, it's their time, it'stheir time to take a breath and
maybe kind of cross into alittle bit of a threshold of
something away from theirordinary day.
So as the guide, I feel that myjob is just to hold space.
(09:40):
A lot of the walk is aboutinvitations.
You have invitations for theparticipants that they can
accept or not accept, of waysthat they might want to connect
with the forest or nature, andthen you give them time to go
out there and take advantage ofthat invitation or not.
(10:02):
And then we come back.
We have a time of coming backand, if they choose to, they can
share what they're experiencingin that moment or not.
So it's not goal-directed.
There's nothing you have toachieve.
It's just really being in themoment and what you get out of
that experience is very personal.
John (10:25):
So what type of person is drawn to for bathing?
Brenda (10:31):
I don't think there's anyone tight.
Mostly it's people that have asense that they really thrive
being in nature and don't feellike they have enough time in
nature given their lifestyle,just all their other commitments
they have in life.
So it's usually people thathave had either in their
(10:54):
childhood or just have ayearning to reconnect with
nature.
So that seems to be the kindsof people that are attracted to
it.
A lot of the people that comeinto my walks are people that
regularly go out in nature.
But they find that the forcetherapy is different because
it's very slow and it's not ahike.
(11:16):
And a lot of people that go outto nature are hiker and hikes
are great.
I've always been a hiker, butit's different.
So, and it's also just forpeople that are searching or
just interested in what it's allabout.
And you don't need a guide togo to force therapy walk.
You can definitely do it onyour own.
But the thing is the guidesometimes just helps you to not
(11:41):
have to think about it.
You can just kind of be in themoment.
John (11:45):
Would you say that some are just missing something in
their life and they're just notsure what it is Like.
They're just searching for somespiritual connection or some
kind of awakening of some sort.
Brenda (11:58):
I'm sure it is, and sometimes those things come up
as we have our discussions afterlike what they're experiencing.
Sometimes things well up fromlike a loss, maybe that
someone's experienced, or aperson, or just they're always
surprised by wow.
When I saw that tree, itreminded me of you know how
(12:22):
fragile we are or how strong weare.
So it's very, very.
It's kind of part of themystery of what makes the walks
so powerful that you neverreally know what's going to come
up and sometimes people don'tknow ahead of time why they're
drawn to it.
I have to say I can't seepeople not enjoying a force
(12:45):
therapy walk.
It's just Lovely, although Ihave had people say I don't like
nature, I don't like bugs, I'mafraid of the woods, and of
course they're not drawn to thewalks.
John (13:03):
When you begin your force walk and everybody, I assume,
just meets at one location inthe parking lot and you connect
at that point, do you doanything formal to open up your
walk?
Clicking a schematic worldwould have a circle where we
call in our ancestors or ourprotective spirits.
Brenda (13:24):
We definitely the first.
Well, first of all, after we'vecome acquainted and you know,
give them a little bit ofinformation about where we are
and the basics about the walk.
We take about 20 minutes to doa.
I guess you would call it agrounding exercise.
And again, the whole thing isall about invitations.
Pat (13:47):
My name is Pat Kemp.
My first force bath, I think,was in the spring of 2023 and it
was at Morgan's Point, ontario.
My first impression was that Iwas just going for a walk.
What I became aware of in thefirst walk, with the guidance of
Brenda, who was a guide, wasthat it's really important to be
(14:12):
present and to be aware ofeverything that's going on
around you, rather than juststrolling through nature, being
aware and open to all the sounds, all the smells, all the
different textures, and justbeing there with those trees and
that grass and those skies andthat way.
I think that hugging treesalways means the same thing.
(14:36):
But I think, when I wasencouraged to actually touch and
listen to the trees and feeltheir bark against my cheek,
that I realized that this is aliving organism that I'm sharing
this space with, and I hadn'treally thought about that in
that way before.
I think it connected with me ina way that made me realize that
(15:01):
I have to be very intentionalabout my interactions and very
aware of the impact I'm havingon my surroundings when I'm in
this.
Brenda (15:11):
So it's inviting them to engage their senses, to connect
with the land, to remind us ofthe human and more than human
world that have been on thisland.
So we take about 20 minutes tojust kind of slow down, but
there are no particular becausethere's no goal involved.
(15:33):
If someone feels connected toan ancestor, that's their own
experience with the nature.
So the invitations are moreopen.
They're very.
We're not guiding people tokind of invite certain beings or
(15:54):
ancestors or anything.
It's just sort of let's slowdown and engage our senses and
then whatever happens from thereis between nature and that
individual.
John (16:09):
I understand you right that there's no, in a sense no,
priming for the possibility ofencountering or experiencing a
deeper aspect of the forest,like the different nature
spirits?
Brenda (16:23):
And that is a big part of the training that I had
during my training as a ForestTherapy Guide.
And it was hard for peoplebecause we had a lot of people
like myself that have experiencein counseling and other helping
professions that are kind ofused to oh, you're really going
to, if you let yourselfexperience this, you could
(16:46):
really have a connection.
But we really had to kind ofhold that back and let forest do
its thing.
So some people might not getout of it that day what even
would they hoped for and othersare surprised by what they do
get.
So it's kind of as the guide.
(17:09):
It kind of takes the pressureoff because it's not.
Somebody asked me one time on awalk what are you trying to
accomplish?
And I said nothing.
And he said what is the goal ofthe walk?
And I said there is no goal.
Oh, oh, I kind of get it, butso I get that's the simplest way
(17:30):
to explain it To try to holdspace.
That's really, that's really myjob and that's why it's easier
to go out on a walk with a guidethan going on your own, because
having somebody hold that spacefor you allows you to really be
(17:51):
in one.
John (17:55):
You know, the idea of grief circles is that it
provides a container for peopleto come in and share something
deeper that they wouldn'totherwise, and so that
witnessing aspect of it plays animportant role.
Do you think that there's kindof a witnessing that takes place
(18:15):
when people come together andthey are just like-minded and
they can just be on this walk,but the idea that they're doing
it with others as opposed to ifthey were just to go by
themselves?
Brenda (18:30):
Oh yeah, absolutely, and I think, as people share what
they're experiencing, it oftentriggers something in someone
else and there is a sense ofcommunity often not always with
the people on the walk, so andsometimes there's people that
already know each other and arepart of a group that come on the
(18:52):
walk, and sometimes it'sstrangers.
So it's kind of magical everytime it happens, because you
just never know what's going toarise, and that's the beauty of
it as well.
John (19:10):
So when you lead them out of the parking lot and you're
going down some trail, whatwould be the typical experience?
Can you take me on a virtualwalk with you?
You don't have to include lunch.
Brenda (19:31):
It's really interesting because a big part of the Forest
Therapy walk is about noticing.
It's invitations about slowingdown and noticing.
So part of connecting with theforest before I take the people
on the walk is I'm noticingthings, maybe about light or the
(19:54):
dampness or whatever is going,the sounds, the birds, whatever.
So my invitations will reflectwhat I've kind of been noticing
myself in that forest.
So as you invite people tomaybe notice the light and then
(20:17):
off they go, they might feelsomething.
It might be completely abouttheir senses or it might be
something emotional or it mightbe a thought or so it's whatever
they're noticing in that moment.
So it just opens things up forpeople to I think we know what
we need.
We know what we need.
(20:40):
It's just having thatpermission and having the force
help us to recognize what weneed in that moment.
So I don't know if that reallyanswers your question.
John (20:51):
It does.
It's almost.
By doing that you're kind ofgiving them a choice to either
allow something of acceptingwhatever the force of that place
has to offer or not.
But the important part is thatthey allow that an experience.
Just to be open to experience,I guess, is really what I'm
(21:12):
saying.
Brenda (21:13):
Yeah, I think that's why creating a space that feels
comfortable, where people feellike it's okay for them to say
what's on their mind or feelsomething that's the whole
experience of the walk is thatit's a gentle, loving place, and
(21:36):
it's not that the forest is I'mnot being overly romantic about
it here is awesome in every way.
But, to feel in that momentwhat it is that you need to feel
, I guess, or that you allow.
John (21:55):
When they're walking?
Do people tend to then partnerup just because they can share
with somebody, or does it tendto be still an individual
experience through most of it?
It's just like a chain withtheir links all spread out down
the line.
Brenda (22:10):
That's a great question and something I hadn't mentioned
before Really encourage peopleto be on their own and to
experience nature in that momenton their own.
That being said, these are allinvitations, so you sometimes
get buddies that haven't seeneach other in a while and I
guess they have that need toconnect in that moment.
(22:32):
So it's designed to be anindividual experience nature,
but it doesn't always go thatway.
Sometimes, people just can'thelp it.
They just want to chat, chat,chat and that's okay, at home.
John (22:46):
Do you let them just spread out, Brent?
It's not like a school group,where they're all hanging onto
the rope and as you're movingalong.
Brenda (22:54):
No, we have a little wolf call that I do to bring
them back when the time's over.
I try and encourage them not torely on their cell phones or
timers and everything.
So we have a little wolf callthat if they hear me, they can
wolf call other people and thenthey come back.
So, yeah, they just kind of offthe go.
It depends on the invitationand it depends on what's going
(23:16):
on in the park or wherever I'mdoing the walk and life happens
and sometimes there's alawnmower going out or
construction.
So that's all part of theexperience and it's recognizing
the humans have impact on theforest as well and nature.
So you're not trying to keeppeople away from the reality of
(23:45):
our lives, it's more.
How do we integrate that?
How do we find somethingbeautiful in that moment?
That's really the invitation.
I think it's like anything thatyou feel like oh, I want to do
that again.
I want more of that.
And nature, especially where weare, I mean it's very developed
(24:06):
.
Here.
There's a lot of urban sprawlit's hard topeople crave.
A lot of people crave being innature, so I do get quite a few
repeat customers.
John (24:19):
Do you have one favorite walk that sticks out for you?
That was just kind of blew youaway.
The intensity up or theexcitement?
Brenda (24:30):
They're all unique.
Probably the favorite one Iwent on was when I was doing my
immersive for my training.
It was in Vermont and weactually spent a whole day on
our own in the forest and thatwas pretty powerful.
And I think I try in my littleway on my shorter walks to hold
(24:53):
that kind of space for people,because the longer you spend in
nature, the more powerful thatrelationship is.
Sometimes people go two and ahalf hours.
I don't have time for that.
It's like hurry up and relax.
So I really try not to shortenthe walks.
But sometimes somebody's notquite ready for two and a half
(25:16):
hour walks.
I try to do something in anhour.
John (25:18):
So yes, listeners who might be listening to this or
would be listening to this andfor some reason, they find that
they're being called to thisidea of helping others to find
something more by walking inforests, how would they go about
becoming certified?
Brenda (25:36):
There's a lot of different training programs.
The one I took is you know it'sonline the Association of
Nature and Forest Therapy.
When I signed up for it, youhave a cohort and we would meet
online weekly for six months andthere's different activities as
(26:00):
part of the training.
The biggest part of thetraining for the training I took
, which I loved it, waslife-changing because you really
embody these things.
It's not just something in yourhead, it's actually embracing
the whole idea of thisinvitational experiential
(26:24):
learning and so, yeah, thesethings are springing up
everywhere too.
That was where I took mytraining.
And then you do all yourexercises and practice walks,
usually with friends orcolleagues, to get that
certification and write up aboutit, and it's quite a bit of
(26:48):
work.
Actually, it was great.
And then, after you becomecertified, you have to do a
four-day immersive and they'reall over the world, it's an
international organization andyou do a four-day immersive and
then you get your permanentcertification and all that is
really is finding your own way,because everybody does their
walks in their own way.
(27:10):
But one thing we had in commonwas this whole invitation You're
not leading people to anexperience, you're completely
trusting the forest and that'sprobably the overriding theme in
the kind of training I had, andit's all about relationship,
relationship between a personand the forest.
John (27:35):
Could you expand a little bit more on the impact that it
had on you when you firststarted the program?
Brenda (27:42):
I think, as somebody who's trained in psychology, as
I am, and I've done a lot ofwork in the helping fields a big
change for me was not feelinglike I had to help people, I had
to take some ownership of whatthe outcome was going to be, and
(28:03):
it was very freeing, and it'sactually helped me in my day job
too, because, as someone thatcontinues to work in that field,
just having faith that theanswers that people are seeking
are within them and it's justallowing, having the faith that
(28:26):
people will find their way, andif the forest can help, then
that's great.
John (28:32):
One of our focuses is on grief.
Would you recommend forestbathing for people who are in
the midst of grief?
Brenda (28:40):
Absolutely, and you know they're getting too
philosophical about it.
We all carry grief with us allthe time and I think as a
culture we're afraid of it andsomehow sometimes watching a
tree lose its leaves or whatevercan cause a lot of emotion from
(29:02):
people that can see themselvesin that tree, sharing that
experience or whatever.
Wherever you are, you neverknow how it's going to affect
someone.
So I see forest therapy, forestbathing, as a wonderful way to
just the grieving part, for sure, but just to be more whole and
(29:26):
let more of our humanity in thatwe sometimes are afraid to
share.
John (29:33):
I don't know if that is too out there to say you think
it highlights the fact thatwe're being an individual is not
necessarily the bestperspective for people to have,
but that they're part ofsomething bigger, like a forest.
Brenda (29:50):
We're a very individualized culture but we
are, we're so interdependent.
I mean, the world is small andwe are part of a big, beautiful,
crazy, complex world and I feelmyself.
My own personal philosophy isthe more we recognize that, the
(30:13):
more we feel are placed withinit.
And it's humbling in a good way, because we're not that big a
deal, we're real part and it'sfreeing not to have to carry the
(30:34):
responsibility that most of usdo.
John (30:38):
I love the fact that you speak of relationship and that's
always been my experience.
I knew an individual and forsome reason they didn't impress
me by the behavior or whatever,and so there's not having that
relationship.
That allows us to be verydifferent from each other.
(30:58):
But the idea of having arelationship, which has been the
case in my experience, is whenall of a sudden, for some reason
, I enter into a relationshipwith that person as an example.
Then you understand there's somuch more to that person than
that little moment that Icaptured and formed from my own
biases, that individual.
(31:19):
And I think that too, in nature, where we take a look at our
forests or parks, that thegreater of the relationship that
we have with that, the more wecare about that and the more
that we want to improve theconditions of our forests, of
(31:40):
our waterways is that when wehave a relationship with a river
or a brook, it just makes uswant to do more for those beings
, those non-human entities.
At the same time, we want to domore for each other because we
understand that idea of respectis very important in all
relationships.
Brenda (32:03):
Yeah, that's so well said and I guess it is a respect
.
It's a respect for all life andour place within it and to do
what we can.
It's hard to be in nature andjust not see the beauty and
magnitude, mystery, and it's sobig, and not want to care for it
(32:30):
, and not want to care for lifeand every little bug that you
see, or any little leaf that yousee, and the beauty of it.
How do these things grow anddie and live?
And it's just.
It's just a wonderful embraceof the mystery and it's
(32:54):
something that we all share.
We all live on this beautifulplanet Earth and we're all part
of it.
John (33:03):
Well, I think, ms Brenda Martin, this would be a good
place to end our conversation.
Well said, thank you so?
Much for agreeing to be on ourshow here.
Brenda (33:15):
Much for inviting me.
It was a pleasure.
John (33:18):
You're quite welcome.
We'll talk again.
After my conversation withBrenda Martin for this episode,
I found myself wanting to knowmore about the organization who
had trained her.
The Association of Nature andForest Therapy, or ANFT, is a
community focusing on nurturingguides who lead others into the
(33:39):
world of nature and foresttherapy.
As of last year, they trained2,400 guides spanning 66
countries, including healthcareprofessionals, doctors, nurses,
psychotherapists and yogainstructors.
But ANFT isn't about turningthem into therapists.
Instead, it's about enhancingtheir practices by adding the
(34:00):
unique skills and knowledge thatcomes from embracing the way of
the guide.
As Brenda Martin emphasized,forest bathing is a serene
immersion into nature, whereeach step becomes an opportunity
to connect with the environment.
Unlike hiking, it's a slow andmindful journey.
You absorb every sensation thegentle breeze on your skin, the
(34:23):
harmonious melodies of the brookand birds and the rhythmic
dance of the trees in the wind.
Forest bathing isn't aboutreaching a destination.
It's about being present andfostering a deep connection with
nature.
International Forest Therapy islike a journey of
self-discovery, helping youremember who you are and your
(34:44):
place in the grand tapestry oflife.
Contact information for theANFT is in the show notes.
Thank you for joining us intothe world of shamanism and its
connection to grief, healing andspiritual growth.
If you have enjoyed thisconversation, be sure to
subscribe to the Urban GriefShamans.
(35:04):
If you have any questions orwish to delve deeper into these
topics, we warmly invite you toconnect with us.
Your comments and support aredeeply cherished.
Until next time, may you findgrace and insight into your own
spiritual journey.
In today's episode, we explore forest bathing with
Brenda Martin, a guide trainedby the Association of Nature and
Forest Therapy.
Brenda emphasizes that forestbathing is more than a walk in
nature.
It's an immersive experience,encouraging a deep connection
with the environment.
This practice, rooted inmindfulness, yet is seen as
(02:01):
being different fromconventional hiking.
Brenda's approach andphilosophy underscores the
importance of presence andsensory engagement to fully
experience the therapeuticaspect of the forest.
Brenda emphasizes foresttherapy walks are accessible to
everyone, regardless of one'sphysical fitness.
Brenda sees her role asfacilitating invitations for
(02:23):
participants to interact withtheir surroundings, making it
personal and adaptableexperience.
Really, the essence of forestbathing is allowing nature to be
the therapist, while Brenda ismerely opening doors to personal
experiences with the naturalworld.
Good morning, brenda.
I'm speaking with Brenda Martintoday and we're going to talk
(02:46):
about forest bathing.
We're going to just talk abouthow it started and how you got
into this.
I was just wondering if youcould explain for our listeners
what is forest bathing.
Brenda (03:01):
Sure thing, thanks.
Thank you, john, for invitingme onto this podcast.
When I got into Forest Bathing,I didn't even know that name, I
Somebody mentioned in thesession bathing.
I was introduced to it becausesaid that I thought, well, I
have been through theAssociation of Nature and Forest
.
My training is based onRinyoku, Japanese They is a they
had training as a foresttherapy guide.
taking Another course.
It was during COVID, and therewere all Therapy sounds are
really interesting.
online courses.
sounds looked more into that.
(03:31):
It's been around since the 80sand is basically translated
into forest bathing.
I think sometimes when peoplehear about forest bathing, they
(03:53):
think you're going to take alltheir clothes off and whatever
and jump into the leaves.
It's really quite differentfrom that.
The research shows that justspending time in nature is
healthy.
There's a lot of research tosupport that.
That is not really my interest.
(04:14):
My interest is more theexperience of being in nature
when I take someone on a foresttherapy walk, the whole idea.
It's so contrary to how most ofus live our lives that we're
very goal-oriented.
We're in our heads.
You've got that noisy voicethat haunts us sometimes and
(04:37):
motivates us.
It's not a bad thing.
Getting into forest bathing orforest therapy is just a chance
to slow down and have arelationship with nature.
That's as simple as that.
Sometimes when people come intomy sessions they think it's
(04:59):
going to be a hike.
It's going to be, they have tobe really physically fit, but
it's not.
I love hiking, but it's not ahike.
It's very, very gentle I wouldsay a gentle stroll.
There's really no goal.
Idea of nature and foresttherapy is nature, is the
(05:20):
therapist, the guide, helps openthe doors.
Your individual experience withnature is what you're going to
get out of the walk.
John (05:34):
Can I just walk you back to the path that you take your
clients on, your friends.
Is it an established path?
Are you walking through kind ofa more pristine, in the sense
that people haven't walked alongthat aspect of the forests?
Brenda (05:56):
There are so many ways to do a forest therapy walk.
Some people do it if you're inan urban area, beside like one
tree, so it's veryindividualized.
For the ones that I do here insouthern Ontario I have
particular forest parks.
Actually these are conservationareas that I feel very
(06:20):
connected to.
So before I do the walk I spendtime myself in nature and
develop that relationship aspermission.
The whole idea is that it's arelationship between humans and
the more than human world.
So when I go into that forest Ikind of get a sense of where I'm
(06:45):
going to take that group.
So I would never go into aforest therapy walk without
first spending quite a bit oftime that day because even the
forest changes.
Even when I use the same parkit's different every day.
So I don't go deeply into theforest and it's more very
(07:05):
accessible for people with allkinds of different physical
barriers.
So I really try to make it avery gentle invitation and if
people want to, they have timewithin that walk to go further
exploring.
But to be honest, in southernOntario you're not going to get
lost in the woods.
John (07:26):
They're not back here you just have to listen for the
nearest roadway, exactly andclothing-wise, just before we
move on from that.
Shoes what do they typicallydress?
Bug spray, I imagine would beimportant.
Brenda (07:42):
Yeah, I usually recommend that they wear shoes.
The place I most like to takepeople for the walks is along
Lake Erie, so I ask them to wearshoes that they can walk along
on the rocks, waterproof longpants, because we also part of
(08:03):
being a guide is being aware ofany of the hazards that might be
on the walk, for example,uneven ground, poison, ivy,
ticks, whatever might behappening.
So it's part of the guide's jobto make people aware of maybe
making sure they stay on thepaths and stay away from those
(08:23):
hazards.
I'm also trained in WildernessFirst Aid, so not that I've had
to use it because I really don'ttake people on treacherous
walks at all, but anything canhappen.
So the thing is to keep peoplesafe, dress for the weather in
layers.
There's quite a bit of time ona walk where you're sitting and
(08:43):
not being very active, so justmaking sure you're going to be
comfortable.
I have those stools that we goout on if people want to use a
stool.
The walks are usually about twoand a half hours, so, yeah,
just to be prepared for thattime, bring along a bottle of
water, make sure you have yourwashroom break ahead of time and
that kind of….
John (09:03):
And some snacks, I would imagine.
Is there any specifictechniques or practices that a
beginner needs to work on beforethey go out with you at all?
Brenda (09:15):
No, they just….
The whole idea of the walk isthat it's absolutely for that
person, it's their time, it'stheir time to take a breath and
maybe kind of cross into alittle bit of a threshold of
something away from theirordinary day.
So as the guide, I feel that myjob is just to hold space.
(09:40):
A lot of the walk is aboutinvitations.
You have invitations for theparticipants that they can
accept or not accept, of waysthat they might want to connect
with the forest or nature, andthen you give them time to go
out there and take advantage ofthat invitation or not.
(10:02):
And then we come back.
We have a time of coming backand, if they choose to, they can
share what they're experiencingin that moment or not.
So it's not goal-directed.
There's nothing you have toachieve.
It's just really being in themoment and what you get out of
that experience is very personal.
John (10:25):
So what type of person is drawn to for bathing?
Brenda (10:31):
I don't think there's anyone tight.
Mostly it's people that have asense that they really thrive
being in nature and don't feellike they have enough time in
nature given their lifestyle,just all their other commitments
they have in life.
So it's usually people thathave had either in their
(10:54):
childhood or just have ayearning to reconnect with
nature.
So that seems to be the kindsof people that are attracted to
it.
A lot of the people that comeinto my walks are people that
regularly go out in nature.
But they find that the forcetherapy is different because
it's very slow and it's not ahike.
(11:16):
And a lot of people that go outto nature are hiker and hikes
are great.
I've always been a hiker, butit's different.
So, and it's also just forpeople that are searching or
just interested in what it's allabout.
And you don't need a guide togo to force therapy walk.
You can definitely do it onyour own.
But the thing is the guidesometimes just helps you to not
(11:41):
have to think about it.
You can just kind of be in themoment.
John (11:45):
Would you say that some are just missing something in
their life and they're just notsure what it is Like.
They're just searching for somespiritual connection or some
kind of awakening of some sort.
Brenda (11:58):
I'm sure it is, and sometimes those things come up
as we have our discussions afterlike what they're experiencing.
Sometimes things well up fromlike a loss, maybe that
someone's experienced, or aperson, or just they're always
surprised by wow.
When I saw that tree, itreminded me of you know how
(12:22):
fragile we are or how strong weare.
So it's very, very.
It's kind of part of themystery of what makes the walks
so powerful that you neverreally know what's going to come
up and sometimes people don'tknow ahead of time why they're
drawn to it.
I have to say I can't seepeople not enjoying a force
(12:45):
therapy walk.
It's just Lovely, although Ihave had people say I don't like
nature, I don't like bugs, I'mafraid of the woods, and of
course they're not drawn to thewalks.
John (13:03):
When you begin your force walk and everybody, I assume,
just meets at one location inthe parking lot and you connect
at that point, do you doanything formal to open up your
walk?
Clicking a schematic worldwould have a circle where we
call in our ancestors or ourprotective spirits.
Brenda (13:24):
We definitely the first.
Well, first of all, after we'vecome acquainted and you know,
give them a little bit ofinformation about where we are
and the basics about the walk.
We take about 20 minutes to doa.
I guess you would call it agrounding exercise.
And again, the whole thing isall about invitations.
Pat (13:47):
My name is Pat Kemp.
My first force bath, I think,was in the spring of 2023 and it
was at Morgan's Point, ontario.
My first impression was that Iwas just going for a walk.
What I became aware of in thefirst walk, with the guidance of
Brenda, who was a guide, wasthat it's really important to be
(14:12):
present and to be aware ofeverything that's going on
around you, rather than juststrolling through nature, being
aware and open to all the sounds, all the smells, all the
different textures, and justbeing there with those trees and
that grass and those skies andthat way.
I think that hugging treesalways means the same thing.
(14:36):
But I think, when I wasencouraged to actually touch and
listen to the trees and feeltheir bark against my cheek,
that I realized that this is aliving organism that I'm sharing
this space with, and I hadn'treally thought about that in
that way before.
I think it connected with me ina way that made me realize that
(15:01):
I have to be very intentionalabout my interactions and very
aware of the impact I'm havingon my surroundings when I'm in
this.
Brenda (15:11):
So it's inviting them to engage their senses, to connect
with the land, to remind us ofthe human and more than human
world that have been on thisland.
So we take about 20 minutes tojust kind of slow down, but
there are no particular becausethere's no goal involved.
(15:33):
If someone feels connected toan ancestor, that's their own
experience with the nature.
So the invitations are moreopen.
They're very.
We're not guiding people tokind of invite certain beings or
(15:54):
ancestors or anything.
It's just sort of let's slowdown and engage our senses and
then whatever happens from thereis between nature and that
individual.
John (16:09):
I understand you right that there's no, in a sense no,
priming for the possibility ofencountering or experiencing a
deeper aspect of the forest,like the different nature
spirits?
Brenda (16:23):
And that is a big part of the training that I had
during my training as a ForestTherapy Guide.
And it was hard for peoplebecause we had a lot of people
like myself that have experiencein counseling and other helping
professions that are kind ofused to oh, you're really going
to, if you let yourselfexperience this, you could
(16:46):
really have a connection.
But we really had to kind ofhold that back and let forest do
its thing.
So some people might not getout of it that day what even
would they hoped for and othersare surprised by what they do
get.
So it's kind of as the guide.
(17:09):
It kind of takes the pressureoff because it's not.
Somebody asked me one time on awalk what are you trying to
accomplish?
And I said nothing.
And he said what is the goal ofthe walk?
And I said there is no goal.
Oh, oh, I kind of get it, butso I get that's the simplest way
(17:30):
to explain it To try to holdspace.
That's really, that's really myjob and that's why it's easier
to go out on a walk with a guidethan going on your own, because
having somebody hold that spacefor you allows you to really be
(17:51):
in one.
John (17:55):
You know, the idea of grief circles is that it
provides a container for peopleto come in and share something
deeper that they wouldn'totherwise, and so that
witnessing aspect of it plays animportant role.
Do you think that there's kindof a witnessing that takes place
(18:15):
when people come together andthey are just like-minded and
they can just be on this walk,but the idea that they're doing
it with others as opposed to ifthey were just to go by
themselves?
Brenda (18:30):
Oh yeah, absolutely, and I think, as people share what
they're experiencing, it oftentriggers something in someone
else and there is a sense ofcommunity often not always with
the people on the walk, so andsometimes there's people that
already know each other and arepart of a group that come on the
(18:52):
walk, and sometimes it'sstrangers.
So it's kind of magical everytime it happens, because you
just never know what's going toarise, and that's the beauty of
it as well.
John (19:10):
So when you lead them out of the parking lot and you're
going down some trail, whatwould be the typical experience?
Can you take me on a virtualwalk with you?
You don't have to include lunch.
Brenda (19:31):
It's really interesting because a big part of the Forest
Therapy walk is about noticing.
It's invitations about slowingdown and noticing.
So part of connecting with theforest before I take the people
on the walk is I'm noticingthings, maybe about light or the
(19:54):
dampness or whatever is going,the sounds, the birds, whatever.
So my invitations will reflectwhat I've kind of been noticing
myself in that forest.
So as you invite people tomaybe notice the light and then
(20:17):
off they go, they might feelsomething.
It might be completely abouttheir senses or it might be
something emotional or it mightbe a thought or so it's whatever
they're noticing in that moment.
So it just opens things up forpeople to I think we know what
we need.
We know what we need.
(20:40):
It's just having thatpermission and having the force
help us to recognize what weneed in that moment.
So I don't know if that reallyanswers your question.
John (20:51):
It does.
It's almost.
By doing that you're kind ofgiving them a choice to either
allow something of acceptingwhatever the force of that place
has to offer or not.
But the important part is thatthey allow that an experience.
Just to be open to experience,I guess, is really what I'm
(21:12):
saying.
Brenda (21:13):
Yeah, I think that's why creating a space that feels
comfortable, where people feellike it's okay for them to say
what's on their mind or feelsomething that's the whole
experience of the walk is thatit's a gentle, loving place, and
(21:36):
it's not that the forest is I'mnot being overly romantic about
it here is awesome in every way.
But, to feel in that momentwhat it is that you need to feel
, I guess, or that you allow.
John (21:55):
When they're walking?
Do people tend to then partnerup just because they can share
with somebody, or does it tendto be still an individual
experience through most of it?
It's just like a chain withtheir links all spread out down
the line.
Brenda (22:10):
That's a great question and something I hadn't mentioned
before Really encourage peopleto be on their own and to
experience nature in that momenton their own.
That being said, these are allinvitations, so you sometimes
get buddies that haven't seeneach other in a while and I
guess they have that need toconnect in that moment.
(22:32):
So it's designed to be anindividual experience nature,
but it doesn't always go thatway.
Sometimes, people just can'thelp it.
They just want to chat, chat,chat and that's okay, at home.
John (22:46):
Do you let them just spread out, Brent?
It's not like a school group,where they're all hanging onto
the rope and as you're movingalong.
Brenda (22:54):
No, we have a little wolf call that I do to bring
them back when the time's over.
I try and encourage them not torely on their cell phones or
timers and everything.
So we have a little wolf callthat if they hear me, they can
wolf call other people and thenthey come back.
So, yeah, they just kind of offthe go.
It depends on the invitationand it depends on what's going
(23:16):
on in the park or wherever I'mdoing the walk and life happens
and sometimes there's alawnmower going out or
construction.
So that's all part of theexperience and it's recognizing
the humans have impact on theforest as well and nature.
So you're not trying to keeppeople away from the reality of
(23:45):
our lives, it's more.
How do we integrate that?
How do we find somethingbeautiful in that moment?
That's really the invitation.
I think it's like anything thatyou feel like oh, I want to do
that again.
I want more of that.
And nature, especially where weare, I mean it's very developed
(24:06):
.
Here.
There's a lot of urban sprawlit's hard topeople crave.
A lot of people crave being innature, so I do get quite a few
repeat customers.
John (24:19):
Do you have one favorite walk that sticks out for you?
That was just kind of blew youaway.
The intensity up or theexcitement?
Brenda (24:30):
They're all unique.
Probably the favorite one Iwent on was when I was doing my
immersive for my training.
It was in Vermont and weactually spent a whole day on
our own in the forest and thatwas pretty powerful.
And I think I try in my littleway on my shorter walks to hold
(24:53):
that kind of space for people,because the longer you spend in
nature, the more powerful thatrelationship is.
Sometimes people go two and ahalf hours.
I don't have time for that.
It's like hurry up and relax.
So I really try not to shortenthe walks.
But sometimes somebody's notquite ready for two and a half
(25:16):
hour walks.
I try to do something in anhour.
John (25:18):
So yes, listeners who might be listening to this or
would be listening to this andfor some reason, they find that
they're being called to thisidea of helping others to find
something more by walking inforests, how would they go about
becoming certified?
Brenda (25:36):
There's a lot of different training programs.
The one I took is you know it'sonline the Association of
Nature and Forest Therapy.
When I signed up for it, youhave a cohort and we would meet
online weekly for six months andthere's different activities as
(26:00):
part of the training.
The biggest part of thetraining for the training I took
, which I loved it, waslife-changing because you really
embody these things.
It's not just something in yourhead, it's actually embracing
the whole idea of thisinvitational experiential
(26:24):
learning and so, yeah, thesethings are springing up
everywhere too.
That was where I took mytraining.
And then you do all yourexercises and practice walks,
usually with friends orcolleagues, to get that
certification and write up aboutit, and it's quite a bit of
(26:48):
work.
Actually, it was great.
And then, after you becomecertified, you have to do a
four-day immersive and they'reall over the world, it's an
international organization andyou do a four-day immersive and
then you get your permanentcertification and all that is
really is finding your own way,because everybody does their
walks in their own way.
(27:10):
But one thing we had in commonwas this whole invitation You're
not leading people to anexperience, you're completely
trusting the forest and that'sprobably the overriding theme in
the kind of training I had, andit's all about relationship,
relationship between a personand the forest.
John (27:35):
Could you expand a little bit more on the impact that it
had on you when you firststarted the program?
Brenda (27:42):
I think, as somebody who's trained in psychology, as
I am, and I've done a lot ofwork in the helping fields a big
change for me was not feelinglike I had to help people, I had
to take some ownership of whatthe outcome was going to be, and
(28:03):
it was very freeing, and it'sactually helped me in my day job
too, because, as someone thatcontinues to work in that field,
just having faith that theanswers that people are seeking
are within them and it's justallowing, having the faith that
(28:26):
people will find their way, andif the forest can help, then
that's great.
John (28:32):
One of our focuses is on grief.
Would you recommend forestbathing for people who are in
the midst of grief?
Brenda (28:40):
Absolutely, and you know they're getting too
philosophical about it.
We all carry grief with us allthe time and I think as a
culture we're afraid of it andsomehow sometimes watching a
tree lose its leaves or whatevercan cause a lot of emotion from
(29:02):
people that can see themselvesin that tree, sharing that
experience or whatever.
Wherever you are, you neverknow how it's going to affect
someone.
So I see forest therapy, forestbathing, as a wonderful way to
just the grieving part, for sure, but just to be more whole and
(29:26):
let more of our humanity in thatwe sometimes are afraid to
share.
John (29:33):
I don't know if that is too out there to say you think
it highlights the fact thatwe're being an individual is not
necessarily the bestperspective for people to have,
but that they're part ofsomething bigger, like a forest.
Brenda (29:50):
We're a very individualized culture but we
are, we're so interdependent.
I mean, the world is small andwe are part of a big, beautiful,
crazy, complex world and I feelmyself.
My own personal philosophy isthe more we recognize that, the
(30:13):
more we feel are placed withinit.
And it's humbling in a good way, because we're not that big a
deal, we're real part and it'sfreeing not to have to carry the
(30:34):
responsibility that most of usdo.
John (30:38):
I love the fact that you speak of relationship and that's
always been my experience.
I knew an individual and forsome reason they didn't impress
me by the behavior or whatever,and so there's not having that
relationship.
That allows us to be verydifferent from each other.
(30:58):
But the idea of having arelationship, which has been the
case in my experience, is whenall of a sudden, for some reason
, I enter into a relationshipwith that person as an example.
Then you understand there's somuch more to that person than
that little moment that Icaptured and formed from my own
biases, that individual.
(31:19):
And I think that too, in nature, where we take a look at our
forests or parks, that thegreater of the relationship that
we have with that, the more wecare about that and the more
that we want to improve theconditions of our forests, of
(31:40):
our waterways is that when wehave a relationship with a river
or a brook, it just makes uswant to do more for those beings
, those non-human entities.
At the same time, we want to domore for each other because we
understand that idea of respectis very important in all
relationships.
Brenda (32:03):
Yeah, that's so well said and I guess it is a respect
.
It's a respect for all life andour place within it and to do
what we can.
It's hard to be in nature andjust not see the beauty and
magnitude, mystery, and it's sobig, and not want to care for it
(32:30):
, and not want to care for lifeand every little bug that you
see, or any little leaf that yousee, and the beauty of it.
How do these things grow anddie and live?
And it's just.
It's just a wonderful embraceof the mystery and it's
(32:54):
something that we all share.
We all live on this beautifulplanet Earth and we're all part
of it.
John (33:03):
Well, I think, ms Brenda Martin, this would be a good
place to end our conversation.
Well said, thank you so?
Much for agreeing to be on ourshow here.
Brenda (33:15):
Much for inviting me.
It was a pleasure.
John (33:18):
You're quite welcome.
We'll talk again.
After my conversation withBrenda Martin for this episode,
I found myself wanting to knowmore about the organization who
had trained her.
The Association of Nature andForest Therapy, or ANFT, is a
community focusing on nurturingguides who lead others into the
(33:39):
world of nature and foresttherapy.
As of last year, they trained2,400 guides spanning 66
countries, including healthcareprofessionals, doctors, nurses,
psychotherapists and yogainstructors.
But ANFT isn't about turningthem into therapists.
Instead, it's about enhancingtheir practices by adding the
(34:00):
unique skills and knowledge thatcomes from embracing the way of
the guide.
As Brenda Martin emphasized,forest bathing is a serene
immersion into nature, whereeach step becomes an opportunity
to connect with the environment.
Unlike hiking, it's a slow andmindful journey.
You absorb every sensation thegentle breeze on your skin, the
(34:23):
harmonious melodies of the brookand birds and the rhythmic
dance of the trees in the wind.
Forest bathing isn't aboutreaching a destination.
It's about being present andfostering a deep connection with
nature.
International Forest Therapy islike a journey of
self-discovery, helping youremember who you are and your
(34:44):
place in the grand tapestry oflife.
Contact information for theANFT is in the show notes.
Thank you for joining us intothe world of shamanism and its
connection to grief, healing andspiritual growth.
If you have enjoyed thisconversation, be sure to
subscribe to the Urban GriefShamans.
(35:04):
If you have any questions orwish to delve deeper into these
topics, we warmly invite you toconnect with us.
Your comments and support aredeeply cherished.
Until next time, may you findgrace and insight into your own
spiritual journey.
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