July 15, 2024 • 22 mins
Unlock the secrets to understanding and healing from relationships with narcissists in our eye-opening conversation with therapist and shamanic practitioner Alex Solomon. We promise you'll gain profound insights into the roots of narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), its ties to childhood trauma, and the manipulative behaviours it engenders. Alex shares invaluable strategies for setting boundaries, restoring self-esteem, and achieving a balanced emotional and spiritual life. Plus, we tackle the rampant misinterpretations of narcissism on social media, providing a clearer picture of the fragile self-esteem and deep-seated shame that underlie the disorder. This episode sets the stage for an even deeper dive with our upcoming guest, Chris Wasco.
Shame, trauma, and community—how do they interconnect and shape NPD? We'll explore this intriguing question, analyzing shame as a biological mechanism for maintaining social cohesion and examining both its adaptive and maladaptive forms. Discover how NPD can emerge as a trauma response aimed at counteracting deep-seated shame and the role of epigenetics and intergenerational trauma. From a shamanic viewpoint, we also delve into soul loss due to disowned parts of oneself. As we navigate the intricate paths of healing, Alex Solomon guides us in choosing between therapy and shamanic practices based on personal needs. Stay tuned as we invite you to our next episode with Chris Wasko for further enriching discussions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John (00:07):
Being in a relationship with a narcissist is like being
caught in a storm without acompass.
Initially, the narcissistshowers you with charm and
affection, making you feelspecial and deeply loved.
But soon the storm hits.
A narcissist's need forconstant admiration and lack of
empathy reveal their true nature.
At first you're on a pedestal,but then criticism and emotional
(00:31):
abuse start chipping away atyour self-esteem.
You find yourself walking oneggshells, desperately trying to
regain the affection you oncereceived.
The narcissist's manipulationcreates a toxic mix of hope and
despair, trapping you in arelentless quest for validation.
This emotional rollercoasterleaves you doubting your
(00:51):
perceptions and worth fosteringconfusion and dependency.
Breaking free requires immensestrength.
You must reclaim your sense ofself and navigate the painful
healing process from the deepwounds inflicted by the
narcissist's abuse.
Shedding self-doubt andembracing the path to healing
with compassion and courage areessential steps on your journey.
Alex Solomon (01:19):
The name.
If we're talking from aclinical perspective, the name
narcissistic personalitydisorder is really not a great
name and there are not a lot ofthings that all psychotherapists
will agree on.
We don't love the name.
It's a fairly stigmatizing nameand it doesn't really get to
the root of what we're talkingabout what we're talking about
(01:49):
In this heartfelt episode.
John (01:49):
we explore the complexities of narcissistic
personality disorder andemphasizing its roots in
childhood trauma and theprofound impact of shame.
With compassion and deepinsight, we discuss strategies
for healing, setting boundariesand understanding the delicate
balance between our emotionaland spiritual selves.
Join us for a meaningfulconversation on navigating the
journey to self-acceptance andrecovery.
(02:11):
I'm John Moore, your host, andyou're listening to the Urban
Grief Shamans.
Alex Solomon (02:18):
And what is the experience of being rejected?
And if we look at even the sortof social, social media
narcissist which gets me up onmy soapbox there, think about
someone who's constantlyengaging in this way of relating
to other people and how muchrejection would they experience
when people don't want to put upwith that?
Right?
(02:38):
And then the rejection.
And they can't feel the griefbecause they can't tolerate it.
Right, because it activates thesteep shame and so it compounds
the problem.
There's the constant grief ofrejection and then never being
able to actually sit with thegrief and process the grief
because it's too much we welcomeback Alex Sullivan, an
(03:01):
experienced therapist andshamanic practitioner.
John (03:04):
Alex sheds light on the complexities of narcissistic
personality disorder.
Therapist and shamanicpractitioner, Alex sheds light
on the complexities ofnarcissistic personality
disorder and shares shamanicstrategies for healing, setting
boundaries and balancing ouremotional and spiritual lives.
This episode is a prelude toour conversation with Chris
Wasco, so make sure you don'tmiss episode 14.
Alex Solomon (03:23):
We have a collection of symptoms and we
give that a name and we callthat a disorder, but we don't
really know where any of itcomes from.
But I think most people wouldagree that what we call
narcissistic personalitydisorder, at least in part,
comes from adverse childexperiences and from that
(03:45):
perspective we could call it atrauma disorder and I certainly
do when I'm working with it thatthis is a response to an
environment in which a childcannot develop in a health way
in terms of regulating theiremotions and relating to other
(04:07):
people.
John (04:09):
But it's not just one symptom, is it?
Alex Solomon (04:11):
Correct.
So clinically, there are ninesymptoms and you have to have
five of them.
And so what I see on socialmedia is the way the word
narcissism is thrown around theInternet.
Social media is the way theword narcissism is thrown around
the internet.
People are trying to useself-centeredness and narcissism
(04:31):
and clinical narcissism and Ithink this person is a jerk all
interchangeably and those thingsare not interchangeable.
So from my perspective as atherapist, I'm talking about a
clinical diagnosis, and when wetalk about a clinical diagnosis,
we're talking about somethingthat we're trying to treat.
So self-centeredness is whatmost people will look at and say
(04:54):
narcissist, right, but there'smore to it than that, and one of
the things that is pervasiveand that is very hard to see
from the outside is a deep senseof shame and a really very
shallow, fragile sense of selfand not knowing who you are and
(05:15):
having a really deep sense thatwho you are, to the extent you
know, is not okay and would notbe accepted, is not okay and
would not be accepted.
And so from that we develop allof us develop ways of going
through the world that make usfeel, that make us feel like we
(05:39):
have the best chance of beingaccepted and validated and
nurtured.
And when we think from abiological perspective, and if
we're talking about shamanism asthe oldest spiritual tradition
in the world, this very muchapplies to shamanism what would
happen to our ancestors if theyweren't accepted by their
community?
They would die.
Because we need communities tosurvive maybe less so now
(06:00):
because things we think of ascommunity aren't actually humans
.
Helping humans when I go to thegrocery store, is that
community?
I don't know, I don't have tointeract with anybody, but I
didn't hunt or farm that food, Ididn't put it in the package
Community has.
We've been separated fromcommunity in the way we survive.
If we think about the necessityof acceptance in the community,
(06:24):
that was an absolute survivalimperative and so it's
biologically programmed into usto seek that acceptance, to bond
with others.
That's in our biology and ushumans.
We think we're more thinkingbeings than we are.
We're really not thinkingbeings, we're feeling beings and
we happen to have thoughtsabout it.
(06:45):
So those deep emotions we havehave a biological reason for
being there, and shame is one ofthose.
When we feel shame, it lets usknow not to do that thing we're
about to do, because we won't beaccepted by the community,
we'll be cast out and we'll die.
So if I'm as a kid, if I Idon't know if I break a window
(07:07):
and I get yelled out for it, Ifeel shame that when I'm about
to do something again that mightbreak the window, that little
bit of shame that comes forwardprevents me from doing that and
helps me have a betterrelationship with my community.
That's adaptive shame.
Now, adaptive shame where wefeel shame that's out of
proportion to the situation, orwhen we feel shame in situations
(07:30):
where it's really notappropriate at all.
For example, honey, you forgotto get milk today.
That's not a situation to feelshame.
Right, you either go get milkor you say I'll get it tomorrow,
but feeling a deep sense ofshame about that is not helpful
or productive.
All of that is to say that weall engage in behaviors that and
(07:53):
Freud would say, defenses notso much a Freudian, but he did
have some good things to saythere we engage in these things
that help us survive, and so theset of things we look at when
we say this is narcissism.
It's not looking in the mirrorand saying you're so great, it's
outsized efforts to buildyourself up so that you don't
(08:16):
feel that intense, maladaptiveshame, and that can involve
things like putting other peopledown, can involve things like
going to great lengths to getother people to praise you,
however you can, because it'sthe only thing that can keep
that shame away.
So when I say that narcissisticpersonality disorder is a
(08:39):
trauma disorder, it's there'sthis outsized shame that comes
from adverse experience and it'sthese extreme efforts to do
anything possible to cover thatup.
John (08:51):
What about ancestral lineage?
Alex Solomon (08:53):
Yes, we can look at epigenetics right, and that's
certainly not my area ofexpertise, but we can look at
all kinds of ways epigenetics,intergenerational trauma, trauma
that comes from oppression, allthese ways that these things
are passed down from generationto generation.
There's much more research thanthere used to be about the
(09:16):
impact of being in an oppressedrace or gender or sexuality or
culture, religion, ethnicity,all these ways that we can
experience oppression as apeople and how these things get
passed down and what's theimpact of experiencing these
things.
So for sure, these get passeddown on a cultural level and
(09:39):
then on a direct lineage level.
If you're raised by somebodythat takes these extreme efforts
to avoid their own shame, thatcreates adverse experience for
you in your childhood.
And then how do you grow up?
Do you grow up doing those samethings or do you grow up doing
something different?
And then clinically,psychologically, we would call
(10:02):
that maybe something else, maybeanother personality disorder,
maybe a trauma disorder or adissociative disorder, but we
would pathologize it in someways.
Everything gets a label.
Right Is grief at the bottom ofit acceptance, right, and what
(10:26):
is the experience of beingrejected?
And if we look at even the sortof social media narcissist
which gets me up on my soapboxthere, think about someone who's
constantly engaging in this wayof relating to other people and
how much rejection would theyexperience when people don't
want to put up with that right?
And then the rejection, andthey can't feel the grief
because they can't tolerate it.
Right, because it activatesthis deep shame, and so it
(10:50):
compounds the problem.
There's the constant grief ofrejection and then never being
able to actually sit with thegrief and process the grief
because it's too much, you can'ttake it, you can't tolerate it.
And so then what do you need todo to cover it up even further?
John (11:07):
Just a spiral, isn't it?
Alex Solomon (11:09):
Absolutely.
John (11:10):
The shamanic approach as we talked about earlier, then
we're going to break it down,looking at soul loss, that part
of us that we don't want anybodyto see our shame right, and so
we don't show that part of ourwho we are to see our shame
right, and so we don't show thatpart of who we are.
So the fragment that containsthe idea of the shame is
banished, not to be seen orheard from again, and so that's
(11:31):
like giving up a bit of our lifeessence when we banish our own
part of ourselves.
Alex Solomon (11:38):
Very much and to have parts of yourself that you
hate so much that you shove themaway that way and think about
the amount of soul loss that hasto be present for somebody not
to know who they are.
It would be a lot and peoplewill talk this way and, as
someone who focuses on trauma inmy practice and childhood
(12:00):
trauma, complex trauma I hearthis a lot know who I am.
John (12:04):
So is that similar to a dissociation?
Alex Solomon (12:08):
Yeah, in a way it is because you've disowned this
piece of you right, and maybedisowned so many pieces of you
that you're not sure what'sstill inside.
People talk this way a lot.
I feel empty inside, from ashamanic perspective that may be
at a certain level of emptiness.
We don't have enough animatingforce to walk around anymore.
John (12:34):
Need some of it.
We need some of us in there.
It speaks to a really profoundlevel of soul loss, wondering
about curses or thought formsthat are passed down from parent
to child.
Alex Solomon (12:40):
whatever it is that they say or they keep
reinforcing, then it becomeslike a curse and therefore one
would need to unravel that to acertain extent is giving away a
piece of your soul to someoneelse or taking a piece of
someone else's soul, or both atthe same time right, and it
(13:03):
becomes much more complicated towork with.
This isn't necessarily justputting something on someone.
It can be taking something awayfrom someone and it can become
complicated if someone else isholding that piece.
John (13:19):
So it didn't really make it complicated then, so it did
really make it complicated.
Alex Solomon (13:38):
Then if you're a traditional psychotherapist
working with people who appearto be narcissists but they're
not looking at it through aspiritual aspect as well as a
clinical aspect, is that how youwould phrase it?
As you're trying to get whatyou need from other people by
controlling what they do.
But none of us can control whatother people do, and I'd say my
job would be a lot easier if Icould control what people do.
I could wave my little magicwand and say stop doing that,
and people just would.
Unfortunately for me and forthe insurance companies, I can't
(14:00):
do that.
And so here we are right, and Ido have a princess wand on my
desk if I want to really hammerit home.
But we can only controlourselves.
So at some point we have tofind in ourselves what it is
that we're seeking.
It doesn't mean we can't haverelationships, but if we don't
(14:23):
do the work that we need to doin order to maintain healthy
relationships, we're going tokeep compounding the rejection,
and so that's the work thatneeds to be done.
If you're happy the way you are, you tend not to find your way
into my office.
A client that wants to talkfrom a spiritual perspective, a
therapy client, I absolutelyhonor that and I'm happy to do
that.
But if I have someone whodoesn't, then I honor that too.
(14:46):
This is one of those many pathsup the mountain kind of
situations and I've certainlyseen what seems to be a
spontaneous soul return as we gothrough the work.
I worked with folks who aremandated to treatment by the
legal system and I primarily didwork with folks with substance
(15:07):
use disorders because I likedoing addiction work.
But I also get along reallywell with people who are pretty
violent and so I got a lot ofthose folks diverted to me in
the agency because we get alongCan't really explain it.
I certainly have had folks cometo me that way after being
(15:27):
harmful to someone else and notnecessarily violence, things
like identity theft or checkfraud or larcenies.
I certainly have had folks say,gosh, this really isn't working
for me, and we talk about thisin the field that folks with
narcissistic personalitydisorder are a little bit less
likely to find their way totreatment, because you're right,
(15:49):
they really don't thinkanything's wrong and they tend
to find themselves in treatmentsome other way, whether it's
couples therapy or familytherapy, somebody else saying
you really need to get some help, some kind of ultimatum from
someone.
So what I see more are folkswith what we would say
narcissistic traits, notmeaningful criteria for the
(16:11):
disorder, or folks that havenarcissistic personality
disorder and something else andthey're coming to me for the and
.
Or folks that have narcissisticpersonality disorder and
something else and they'recoming to me for the and
something else, and I thinkthat's most people's experience,
and there are certainly, and Iknow, people that really
specialize in this area.
There's someone local to me whospecializes in daughters of
(16:34):
narcissists.
I think there's not a lot oftalk about women specifically
who have narcissistic traits,and I think that you can have.
Again, we say narcissistictraits, it doesn't mean
self-centered, that it's notnarcissists staring in the water
(16:59):
, which, of course, is thelegend.
John (17:01):
I'm just wondering about unattended grief.
Weller always says that afterall, the aberrant behaviors will
start to pop up when peoplehave just keep bearing their
grief and become anesthetized tothat and that pain that they're
carrying, and then addictionspop up, and also I was wondering
just the maledictive behaviors,in the sense that you owe me,
(17:25):
that you're the cause of my pain.
And is that the early seeds?
Or would that have already beenwith that individual egg before
the chicken?
What comes first?
Alex Solomon (17:39):
I mean it's hard to say.
I think that grief seems to bethe thing people are least
willing to feel.
Present company accepted maybe,but it sucks right.
No one wants to sit with thatand think.
I think people don't want toeven name it as grief.
(18:04):
And we have a whole lot offeeling words, hundreds in the
English language of words foremotion.
I think there's a case to bemade for looking at grief as an
umbrella term and not a specificterm.
John (18:18):
That's a good point.
What would you say for somebodywho's discovering that there's
a narcissist amongst their midstand the family or their husband
or their significant other?
What to do about?
Alex Solomon (18:34):
it.
I know it's very therapist ofme to say seek out therapy, but
I really do believe that if youhaven't I've experienced if you
haven't set boundaries withsomeone in the beginning, or if
the boundaries you've set arenot working, it is much harder
to change course because you'regoing to get a big reaction,
much bigger than if you set them.
(18:56):
You're going to get a biggerreaction from them and it's
you're learning to walk again.
Right, you're a toddler nowlearning to do this and and it's
really have to have somebody tocoach you and to support you
and to validate you and extentthat there's gaslighting
happening.
To have just somebody elsethere to say no, it doesn't
(19:20):
sound right.
And in a family where there'sthis set of communications
styles going on and inrelationship styles, it's
extremely unlikely that there'sonly one person who has some
kind of issue.
You know, there's a tendency forpeople with narcissistic
(19:40):
personality disorder and peoplewith borderline personality
disorder to come togetherbecause it fits.
Somebody who is only willing toget their own needs met and
someone who has this tendency toconstantly do for other people.
That sounds like a fit, doesn'tit?
It's not a healthy one foreither person, but in the
beginning at least can work.
(20:01):
Well, work is not the word.
You can stick, and so it reallyis a skill issue.
To learn how to just saying noto somebody really is not as
easy as it sounds.
Did six sessions today talkedabout this probably three times
(20:21):
just how to say no, because it'shard.
It's hard, and having somebodywho's impartial but is also in
your corner sounds like aparadox, but doesn't have to be.
That can be really helpful.
I also think that energeticboundaries are not talked about
enough, and this goes more intoshamanism territory, although I
(20:44):
would talk about it in adifferent way, therapeutically,
and I would call it energeticboundaries, but just being able
to be centered in your own spaceand not be intruded upon by
other people's energy.
And I think there's a lot of usparticularly and John, you and I
are both in healthcare,particularly in healthcare that
(21:05):
don't have good energeticboundaries.
We like to help other people wewant to help and we get
bombarded.
We get all these intrusionsfrom other people people we want
to help and we get bombarded.
We get all these intrusionsfrom other people.
And so learning to discernwhat's yours and what's not
yours, learning to filter outwhat doesn't belong to you all
(21:26):
that very basic kind ofprotective stuff can be very
helpful, and for you and I, wewould do that with the support
of our helping spirits, and I'veserved them that have been very
helpful for me, as one of thosepeople that always have good
energetic boundaries,Particularly as I'm sitting with
, among other things, grief allday, it's just good to be able
(21:48):
to separate what's yours andwhat's not yours.
It takes a little bit of asense of self to be able to do
that.
And again, that's what do we dofirst, therapy or shamanic?
John (21:58):
healing.
Alex Solomon (21:58):
I think it depends on the person.
John (22:01):
Thank you for joining us for this episode.
We hope you found Alex andSolomon's perspectives on
narcissistic personalitydisorder and shamanic healing
helpful.
Remember to tune in to our nextepisode with Chris Zwasko.
Until next time, take care andcontinue your journey towards
healing and self-discovery.
Being in a relationship with a narcissist is like being
caught in a storm without acompass.
Initially, the narcissistshowers you with charm and
affection, making you feelspecial and deeply loved.
But soon the storm hits.
A narcissist's need forconstant admiration and lack of
empathy reveal their true nature.
At first you're on a pedestal,but then criticism and emotional
(00:31):
abuse start chipping away atyour self-esteem.
You find yourself walking oneggshells, desperately trying to
regain the affection you oncereceived.
The narcissist's manipulationcreates a toxic mix of hope and
despair, trapping you in arelentless quest for validation.
This emotional rollercoasterleaves you doubting your
(00:51):
perceptions and worth fosteringconfusion and dependency.
Breaking free requires immensestrength.
You must reclaim your sense ofself and navigate the painful
healing process from the deepwounds inflicted by the
narcissist's abuse.
Shedding self-doubt andembracing the path to healing
with compassion and courage areessential steps on your journey.
Alex Solomon (01:19):
The name.
If we're talking from aclinical perspective, the name
narcissistic personalitydisorder is really not a great
name and there are not a lot ofthings that all psychotherapists
will agree on.
We don't love the name.
It's a fairly stigmatizing nameand it doesn't really get to
the root of what we're talkingabout what we're talking about
(01:49):
In this heartfelt episode.
John (01:49):
we explore the complexities of narcissistic
personality disorder andemphasizing its roots in
childhood trauma and theprofound impact of shame.
With compassion and deepinsight, we discuss strategies
for healing, setting boundariesand understanding the delicate
balance between our emotionaland spiritual selves.
Join us for a meaningfulconversation on navigating the
journey to self-acceptance andrecovery.
(02:11):
I'm John Moore, your host, andyou're listening to the Urban
Grief Shamans.
Alex Solomon (02:18):
And what is the experience of being rejected?
And if we look at even the sortof social, social media
narcissist which gets me up onmy soapbox there, think about
someone who's constantlyengaging in this way of relating
to other people and how muchrejection would they experience
when people don't want to put upwith that?
Right?
(02:38):
And then the rejection.
And they can't feel the griefbecause they can't tolerate it.
Right, because it activates thesteep shame and so it compounds
the problem.
There's the constant grief ofrejection and then never being
able to actually sit with thegrief and process the grief
because it's too much we welcomeback Alex Sullivan, an
(03:01):
experienced therapist andshamanic practitioner.
John (03:04):
Alex sheds light on the complexities of narcissistic
personality disorder.
Therapist and shamanicpractitioner, Alex sheds light
on the complexities ofnarcissistic personality
disorder and shares shamanicstrategies for healing, setting
boundaries and balancing ouremotional and spiritual lives.
This episode is a prelude toour conversation with Chris
Wasco, so make sure you don'tmiss episode 14.
Alex Solomon (03:23):
We have a collection of symptoms and we
give that a name and we callthat a disorder, but we don't
really know where any of itcomes from.
But I think most people wouldagree that what we call
narcissistic personalitydisorder, at least in part,
comes from adverse childexperiences and from that
(03:45):
perspective we could call it atrauma disorder and I certainly
do when I'm working with it thatthis is a response to an
environment in which a childcannot develop in a health way
in terms of regulating theiremotions and relating to other
(04:07):
people.
John (04:09):
But it's not just one symptom, is it?
Alex Solomon (04:11):
Correct.
So clinically, there are ninesymptoms and you have to have
five of them.
And so what I see on socialmedia is the way the word
narcissism is thrown around theInternet.
Social media is the way theword narcissism is thrown around
the internet.
People are trying to useself-centeredness and narcissism
(04:31):
and clinical narcissism and Ithink this person is a jerk all
interchangeably and those thingsare not interchangeable.
So from my perspective as atherapist, I'm talking about a
clinical diagnosis, and when wetalk about a clinical diagnosis,
we're talking about somethingthat we're trying to treat.
So self-centeredness is whatmost people will look at and say
(04:54):
narcissist, right, but there'smore to it than that, and one of
the things that is pervasiveand that is very hard to see
from the outside is a deep senseof shame and a really very
shallow, fragile sense of selfand not knowing who you are and
(05:15):
having a really deep sense thatwho you are, to the extent you
know, is not okay and would notbe accepted, is not okay and
would not be accepted.
And so from that we develop allof us develop ways of going
through the world that make usfeel, that make us feel like we
(05:39):
have the best chance of beingaccepted and validated and
nurtured.
And when we think from abiological perspective, and if
we're talking about shamanism asthe oldest spiritual tradition
in the world, this very muchapplies to shamanism what would
happen to our ancestors if theyweren't accepted by their
community?
They would die.
Because we need communities tosurvive maybe less so now
(06:00):
because things we think of ascommunity aren't actually humans
.
Helping humans when I go to thegrocery store, is that
community?
I don't know, I don't have tointeract with anybody, but I
didn't hunt or farm that food, Ididn't put it in the package
Community has.
We've been separated fromcommunity in the way we survive.
If we think about the necessityof acceptance in the community,
(06:24):
that was an absolute survivalimperative and so it's
biologically programmed into usto seek that acceptance, to bond
with others.
That's in our biology and ushumans.
We think we're more thinkingbeings than we are.
We're really not thinkingbeings, we're feeling beings and
we happen to have thoughtsabout it.
(06:45):
So those deep emotions we havehave a biological reason for
being there, and shame is one ofthose.
When we feel shame, it lets usknow not to do that thing we're
about to do, because we won't beaccepted by the community,
we'll be cast out and we'll die.
So if I'm as a kid, if I Idon't know if I break a window
(07:07):
and I get yelled out for it, Ifeel shame that when I'm about
to do something again that mightbreak the window, that little
bit of shame that comes forwardprevents me from doing that and
helps me have a betterrelationship with my community.
That's adaptive shame.
Now, adaptive shame where wefeel shame that's out of
proportion to the situation, orwhen we feel shame in situations
(07:30):
where it's really notappropriate at all.
For example, honey, you forgotto get milk today.
That's not a situation to feelshame.
Right, you either go get milkor you say I'll get it tomorrow,
but feeling a deep sense ofshame about that is not helpful
or productive.
All of that is to say that weall engage in behaviors that and
(07:53):
Freud would say, defenses notso much a Freudian, but he did
have some good things to saythere we engage in these things
that help us survive, and so theset of things we look at when
we say this is narcissism.
It's not looking in the mirrorand saying you're so great, it's
outsized efforts to buildyourself up so that you don't
(08:16):
feel that intense, maladaptiveshame, and that can involve
things like putting other peopledown, can involve things like
going to great lengths to getother people to praise you,
however you can, because it'sthe only thing that can keep
that shame away.
So when I say that narcissisticpersonality disorder is a
(08:39):
trauma disorder, it's there'sthis outsized shame that comes
from adverse experience and it'sthese extreme efforts to do
anything possible to cover thatup.
John (08:51):
What about ancestral lineage?
Alex Solomon (08:53):
Yes, we can look at epigenetics right, and that's
certainly not my area ofexpertise, but we can look at
all kinds of ways epigenetics,intergenerational trauma, trauma
that comes from oppression, allthese ways that these things
are passed down from generationto generation.
There's much more research thanthere used to be about the
(09:16):
impact of being in an oppressedrace or gender or sexuality or
culture, religion, ethnicity,all these ways that we can
experience oppression as apeople and how these things get
passed down and what's theimpact of experiencing these
things.
So for sure, these get passeddown on a cultural level and
(09:39):
then on a direct lineage level.
If you're raised by somebodythat takes these extreme efforts
to avoid their own shame, thatcreates adverse experience for
you in your childhood.
And then how do you grow up?
Do you grow up doing those samethings or do you grow up doing
something different?
And then clinically,psychologically, we would call
(10:02):
that maybe something else, maybeanother personality disorder,
maybe a trauma disorder or adissociative disorder, but we
would pathologize it in someways.
Everything gets a label.
Right Is grief at the bottom ofit acceptance, right, and what
(10:26):
is the experience of beingrejected?
And if we look at even the sortof social media narcissist
which gets me up on my soapboxthere, think about someone who's
constantly engaging in this wayof relating to other people and
how much rejection would theyexperience when people don't
want to put up with that right?
And then the rejection, andthey can't feel the grief
because they can't tolerate it.
Right, because it activatesthis deep shame, and so it
(10:50):
compounds the problem.
There's the constant grief ofrejection and then never being
able to actually sit with thegrief and process the grief
because it's too much, you can'ttake it, you can't tolerate it.
And so then what do you need todo to cover it up even further?
John (11:07):
Just a spiral, isn't it?
Alex Solomon (11:09):
Absolutely.
John (11:10):
The shamanic approach as we talked about earlier, then
we're going to break it down,looking at soul loss, that part
of us that we don't want anybodyto see our shame right, and so
we don't show that part of ourwho we are to see our shame
right, and so we don't show thatpart of who we are.
So the fragment that containsthe idea of the shame is
banished, not to be seen orheard from again, and so that's
(11:31):
like giving up a bit of our lifeessence when we banish our own
part of ourselves.
Alex Solomon (11:38):
Very much and to have parts of yourself that you
hate so much that you shove themaway that way and think about
the amount of soul loss that hasto be present for somebody not
to know who they are.
It would be a lot and peoplewill talk this way and, as
someone who focuses on trauma inmy practice and childhood
(12:00):
trauma, complex trauma I hearthis a lot know who I am.
John (12:04):
So is that similar to a dissociation?
Alex Solomon (12:08):
Yeah, in a way it is because you've disowned this
piece of you right, and maybedisowned so many pieces of you
that you're not sure what'sstill inside.
People talk this way a lot.
I feel empty inside, from ashamanic perspective that may be
at a certain level of emptiness.
We don't have enough animatingforce to walk around anymore.
John (12:34):
Need some of it.
We need some of us in there.
It speaks to a really profoundlevel of soul loss, wondering
about curses or thought formsthat are passed down from parent
to child.
Alex Solomon (12:40):
whatever it is that they say or they keep
reinforcing, then it becomeslike a curse and therefore one
would need to unravel that to acertain extent is giving away a
piece of your soul to someoneelse or taking a piece of
someone else's soul, or both atthe same time right, and it
(13:03):
becomes much more complicated towork with.
This isn't necessarily justputting something on someone.
It can be taking something awayfrom someone and it can become
complicated if someone else isholding that piece.
John (13:19):
So it didn't really make it complicated then, so it did
really make it complicated.
Alex Solomon (13:38):
Then if you're a traditional psychotherapist
working with people who appearto be narcissists but they're
not looking at it through aspiritual aspect as well as a
clinical aspect, is that how youwould phrase it?
As you're trying to get whatyou need from other people by
controlling what they do.
But none of us can control whatother people do, and I'd say my
job would be a lot easier if Icould control what people do.
I could wave my little magicwand and say stop doing that,
and people just would.
Unfortunately for me and forthe insurance companies, I can't
(14:00):
do that.
And so here we are right, and Ido have a princess wand on my
desk if I want to really hammerit home.
But we can only controlourselves.
So at some point we have tofind in ourselves what it is
that we're seeking.
It doesn't mean we can't haverelationships, but if we don't
(14:23):
do the work that we need to doin order to maintain healthy
relationships, we're going tokeep compounding the rejection,
and so that's the work thatneeds to be done.
If you're happy the way you are, you tend not to find your way
into my office.
A client that wants to talkfrom a spiritual perspective, a
therapy client, I absolutelyhonor that and I'm happy to do
that.
But if I have someone whodoesn't, then I honor that too.
(14:46):
This is one of those many pathsup the mountain kind of
situations and I've certainlyseen what seems to be a
spontaneous soul return as we gothrough the work.
I worked with folks who aremandated to treatment by the
legal system and I primarily didwork with folks with substance
(15:07):
use disorders because I likedoing addiction work.
But I also get along reallywell with people who are pretty
violent and so I got a lot ofthose folks diverted to me in
the agency because we get alongCan't really explain it.
I certainly have had folks cometo me that way after being
(15:27):
harmful to someone else and notnecessarily violence, things
like identity theft or checkfraud or larcenies.
I certainly have had folks say,gosh, this really isn't working
for me, and we talk about thisin the field that folks with
narcissistic personalitydisorder are a little bit less
likely to find their way totreatment, because you're right,
(15:49):
they really don't thinkanything's wrong and they tend
to find themselves in treatmentsome other way, whether it's
couples therapy or familytherapy, somebody else saying
you really need to get some help, some kind of ultimatum from
someone.
So what I see more are folkswith what we would say
narcissistic traits, notmeaningful criteria for the
(16:11):
disorder, or folks that havenarcissistic personality
disorder and something else andthey're coming to me for the and
.
Or folks that have narcissisticpersonality disorder and
something else and they'recoming to me for the and
something else, and I thinkthat's most people's experience,
and there are certainly, and Iknow, people that really
specialize in this area.
There's someone local to me whospecializes in daughters of
(16:34):
narcissists.
I think there's not a lot oftalk about women specifically
who have narcissistic traits,and I think that you can have.
Again, we say narcissistictraits, it doesn't mean
self-centered, that it's notnarcissists staring in the water
(16:59):
, which, of course, is thelegend.
John (17:01):
I'm just wondering about unattended grief.
Weller always says that afterall, the aberrant behaviors will
start to pop up when peoplehave just keep bearing their
grief and become anesthetized tothat and that pain that they're
carrying, and then addictionspop up, and also I was wondering
just the maledictive behaviors,in the sense that you owe me,
(17:25):
that you're the cause of my pain.
And is that the early seeds?
Or would that have already beenwith that individual egg before
the chicken?
What comes first?
Alex Solomon (17:39):
I mean it's hard to say.
I think that grief seems to bethe thing people are least
willing to feel.
Present company accepted maybe,but it sucks right.
No one wants to sit with thatand think.
I think people don't want toeven name it as grief.
(18:04):
And we have a whole lot offeeling words, hundreds in the
English language of words foremotion.
I think there's a case to bemade for looking at grief as an
umbrella term and not a specificterm.
John (18:18):
That's a good point.
What would you say for somebodywho's discovering that there's
a narcissist amongst their midstand the family or their husband
or their significant other?
What to do about?
Alex Solomon (18:34):
it.
I know it's very therapist ofme to say seek out therapy, but
I really do believe that if youhaven't I've experienced if you
haven't set boundaries withsomeone in the beginning, or if
the boundaries you've set arenot working, it is much harder
to change course because you'regoing to get a big reaction,
much bigger than if you set them.
(18:56):
You're going to get a biggerreaction from them and it's
you're learning to walk again.
Right, you're a toddler nowlearning to do this and and it's
really have to have somebody tocoach you and to support you
and to validate you and extentthat there's gaslighting
happening.
To have just somebody elsethere to say no, it doesn't
(19:20):
sound right.
And in a family where there'sthis set of communications
styles going on and inrelationship styles, it's
extremely unlikely that there'sonly one person who has some
kind of issue.
You know, there's a tendency forpeople with narcissistic
(19:40):
personality disorder and peoplewith borderline personality
disorder to come togetherbecause it fits.
Somebody who is only willing toget their own needs met and
someone who has this tendency toconstantly do for other people.
That sounds like a fit, doesn'tit?
It's not a healthy one foreither person, but in the
beginning at least can work.
(20:01):
Well, work is not the word.
You can stick, and so it reallyis a skill issue.
To learn how to just saying noto somebody really is not as
easy as it sounds.
Did six sessions today talkedabout this probably three times
(20:21):
just how to say no, because it'shard.
It's hard, and having somebodywho's impartial but is also in
your corner sounds like aparadox, but doesn't have to be.
That can be really helpful.
I also think that energeticboundaries are not talked about
enough, and this goes more intoshamanism territory, although I
(20:44):
would talk about it in adifferent way, therapeutically,
and I would call it energeticboundaries, but just being able
to be centered in your own spaceand not be intruded upon by
other people's energy.
And I think there's a lot of usparticularly and John, you and I
are both in healthcare,particularly in healthcare that
(21:05):
don't have good energeticboundaries.
We like to help other people wewant to help and we get
bombarded.
We get all these intrusionsfrom other people people we want
to help and we get bombarded.
We get all these intrusionsfrom other people.
And so learning to discernwhat's yours and what's not
yours, learning to filter outwhat doesn't belong to you all
(21:26):
that very basic kind ofprotective stuff can be very
helpful, and for you and I, wewould do that with the support
of our helping spirits, and I'veserved them that have been very
helpful for me, as one of thosepeople that always have good
energetic boundaries,Particularly as I'm sitting with
, among other things, grief allday, it's just good to be able
(21:48):
to separate what's yours andwhat's not yours.
It takes a little bit of asense of self to be able to do
that.
And again, that's what do we dofirst, therapy or shamanic?
John (21:58):
healing.
Alex Solomon (21:58):
I think it depends on the person.
John (22:01):
Thank you for joining us for this episode.
We hope you found Alex andSolomon's perspectives on
narcissistic personalitydisorder and shamanic healing
helpful.
Remember to tune in to our nextepisode with Chris Zwasko.
Until next time, take care andcontinue your journey towards
healing and self-discovery.
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