March 23, 2024 • 38 mins
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Have you ever faced a shattering moment that reshaped your entire existence? Meet Ashmeeta Madhav, a beacon of strength in the turmoil of loss, who joins us to share her transformative journey through grief. She brings a reservoir of resilience as an educator, author, and grief support advocate, teaching us that our darkest times can lead to profound personal growth. Ashmeeta's tale is not just about navigating the treacherous waters of bereavement but also about the fortitude that comes from within and the unexpected support that can come from those around us. This reassures us that we are not alone, even in our darkest moments.
Guest Bio
Ashmeeta Ramamadhov is a resilience and grief support advocate, educator, entrepreneur, author, and committed lifelong learner who has faced numerous life-altering experiences since her early twenties. Her journey through miscarriage, rejection, and the profound losses of her parents and husband has deeply acquainted her with the depths of grief. These challenges propelled her onto a path of self-discovery, leading her to value personal growth and recognize thoughts' profound impact on shaping reality.
Ashmeeta's dedication to aiding others and sharing her insights culminates in her book, "What's Your Story?", in which she unfolds her personal narrative of grief and self-discovery. Her mission is to provide solace, inspire, and guide those enduring hardships to uncover their inner strength and resilience and forge a meaningful life ahead. She emphasizes that while experiencing loss may conclude a chapter in our lives, it also heralds the start of another, signifying hope rather than despair.
Links to additional resources
Ashmeeta Rama Madhav’s book, What’s Your Story?
Visit her website here.
Practical Steps Toward Building Resilience. Read here.
🌿 Feeling stuck or spiritually disconnected?
At Soulful Energy Medicine, I help you release energetic blocks, clear emotional pain, and reconnect with your true self. You’ll find a safe, grounded space for soul-level transformation through virtual healing sessions.
✨ Book your free discovery call: Soulful Energy Medicine
Foundation for Shamanic Studies: Explore here
“The Way of the Shaman” book by Michael Harner
Society for Shamanic Practice: Explore here
Connect
John@urbangriefshamans.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John (00:00):
Hi, my name is Ashmeeta Ramamadhu.
I am a resilience and griefsupport advocate, an educator,
entrepreneur, author and alifelong learner.
And the reason I call myself alifelong learner is because of
the many life-changingexperiences from my early 20s.
Things like rejection,miscarriages, the death of both
(00:21):
my parents and my husband haveexposed me to emotions of
intense grief and I felt stuckand lost and I had no way to do
anything but venture out ontothe path of self-discovery.
And I've come to appreciate theimportance of personal growth
(00:42):
and understand the impact mythoughts have on shaping my
reality.
Ashmeeta (00:45):
Thank, you, Ashmeeta.
I know from doing a bit ofresearch on your story prior to
speaking this evening.
I know that there's been biglosses that you've had
throughout your lifetime andthat your story is deeply moving
.
What I want to do is just touchon your background and your
(01:06):
personal journey, so can youshare how these experiences have
shaped your approach to helpingothers to navigate their grief?
John (01:18):
So my experience with grief in various as I said
earlier in various differentforms started way back when I
was in my 20s, and at that pointin my life it came more as a
shock to me.
Because you're young, you haveall these expectations and you
expect, you have these plans andyou expect things to go a
(01:38):
certain way, and then I findmyself being rejected.
I also find myself havingmiscarriage and I am totally
lost and taken by that and Ijust wanted to hide away, which
was helpful in some ways, butalso it was not helpful because
hiding away is not actually theanswer.
(01:59):
If I'm hiding for a reason toactually help myself and so that
I could get back out into theworld again, then I guess that's
healthy.
But if I'm hiding because I'mafraid of the world and I'm
afraid that people are going tohurt me or anything that happens
is going to hurt me, that's awhole different thing altogether
and initially that is what Iwas doing.
Ashmeeta (02:21):
Can we go back several years before your 20s?
I was just wondering.
We all seem to be stayingsomewhat with a little bit with
our childhood, or how weinterpret the world, or
interpret our parents and justpeople that come into us day in,
day out, and I was justwondering what was your
childhood like?
Where did you grow up?
John (02:40):
My childhood was pretty normal.
I wear I call normal that wordI use very generally here it
wasn't.
Yes, I come from a small family.
My dad was an only child.
He had to fend for himself fromthe age of 13, living in a new
country all alone with somefamily friends.
(03:01):
His parents left him in adifferent country other than
where he was born, so he grew uphaving to basically fend for
himself, that he was living inanother person's house, had to
earn his keep, all of that kindof stuff.
So his mindset was important tohim, was very different
(03:21):
compared to another 13-year-oldin his time, in his day and time
.
My mom came from a bigger familythough their four sisters,
including my mom and brother,and then her dad had four
brothers.
So she came from this hugeextended family system and in
those days people lived eithernext door to each other if not
(03:42):
in the same house also.
So her dynamics were verydifferent.
For my brother and myself we'rejust the two.
There's just the two of usBecause my dad and mom they
basically had to.
It was a make or break for them.
They started off from veryhumble beginnings and worked
themselves to a point where theywere comfortable with whatever
(04:06):
they, how they wanted to be, butfor my brother and myself, on
the receiving side of that lifethat they created for us, we had
so much more opportunities.
They were very open-minded myparents, even though, living in
culture that we come from, I'mIndian, my culture is certain
(04:28):
ways and things and all thatkind of stuff that goes along
with living in a specificcommunity.
But having said all of that, Ireally do think that my parents
were very accepting andopen-minded.
Ashmeeta (04:41):
Were you a strong individual at a young age, like
in your early twenties?
John (04:46):
Oh yeah, I was pretty old in my eights.
I was a little bit of a rebelwhen I was sixteen, seventeen in
my teenage years, but not arebel in the form of causing
trouble that would affectanybody, but rebel in my family.
Ashmeeta (04:59):
I always.
John (05:00):
I guess I got that from my parents, so even though they
were old, it backfired a littleon them as well.
Because, okay, we have this kid.
We encourage you to speak andcombine.
We encourage her to say whatshe's feeling.
This is all coming back at us.
We sometimes even foundourselves uncomfortable.
Ashmeeta (05:16):
No, this is too much.
So after your early twenties oryou started to move through
this first, would you say thatwas the biggest grief that
you've experienced in yourlifetime?
In your early twenties?
John (05:32):
At that time.
Yes, it was the biggest.
It molded me, changed me and itchanged all my interactions
with anybody that I had anyinteractions with in the world,
especially in that sort ofrelationship where you needed to
be close to someone orsomething.
Ashmeeta (05:50):
It definitely so then, after this, you're like the
next big event in your life Wasit the loss of your father?
John (05:59):
No, the next loss was in 2008, the loss of my mom.
Ashmeeta (06:04):
That would be a big one.
John (06:06):
That was my very first experience with death up close
and personal, because I lost mymother, the one person who was
my rock.
So that pushed me into a wholedifferent space.
I was married by then.
I had two kids, two young kids,two boys, and we had just moved
(06:29):
to the US with my husband's joband a year later this all
happened.
So being in a new country,still trying to understand how,
to the dynamics of justeverything that comes along with
moving to a new place, thisreality, and then the added
(06:49):
stuff of having to deal with thegrief and the disillusionment,
not just walking around withthis weird thought in my head
all the time what's the point ofthis?
I'm going to die anyway.
I remember thinking that for thelongest time I'm going to die
anyway.
What's the point of this?
Why do I need to do this?
My husband brought that to.
My late husband had broughtthat to my attention a few times
.
I noticed you don't seem tohave that enthusiasm in you
(07:13):
anymore, the way you used to,and I'm not sure what's going on
with you.
But I just want to bring toyour attention that I'm noticing
this about you.
Ashmeeta (07:20):
Yeah, and that's all part of grieving, isn't it?
John (07:23):
It's absolutely part of grieving.
Ashmeeta (07:25):
I just make this.
I always say grief makes itsmall while it's doing its job.
Your mother's passing was it along process for you and your
family, or was it somewhatsudden?
John (07:38):
It was sudden, it happened within a week, so it happened
too quick.
By the time I got there she wasalready in that unconscious
state in hospital and all ofthose machines and things like
that.
I had gone there, got therewith this big expectation,
unrealistic expectation, but atthe time I didn't think it was
(08:02):
that I was going to get thereand my mom was going to hear my
voice and she was going to be soexcited to see me and
everything was going to be fine.
Then I learned quickly that itwas not going to be the case.
Ashmeeta (08:13):
Did you were able to have any I don't know
conversations with her beforethis had?
John (08:18):
taken place?
No, oh, before I left to go toSouth Africa.
Yes, I did.
In Sweden, South Africa.
I did have a conversation withher and, the strangest thing, I
had spoken to her and said toher that mom, I don't want
anything to happen to you.
I hope you get better soon, andall that kind of stuff.
She said something to me.
(08:39):
She said you know life anddeath, it's something that's
going to happen, but I need youto remember one thing you have
kids and you need to take careof them.
That is what my mom said to me.
Ashmeeta (08:49):
I'm like yes, I know that mom.
John (08:51):
I'm interested in that.
I don't want anything to happento you.
That's all she said to me whenI got there there was no chance
to have any conversation becauseshe was already unconscious, in
an unconscious state by thattime.
Ashmeeta (09:06):
Yeah, oh, sorry to hear that part.
Were you able to communicate atall by holding her?
John (09:13):
Yes, I got there I touched her hand and I said mom, I'm
here.
And she just made a sound To me.
That was her acknowledgementthat she knew.
Ashmeeta (09:21):
I was there.
John (09:22):
A few hours later she was gone.
So yeah, and at that point inmy life I did not even know much
about death.
I didn't know, anything abouthow the body prepares for death,
the kind of signs and thingsthat happen as your body is
(09:44):
slowly declining, the systemstarts shutting down, and the
whole thing about the breathing,how it becomes shallower, her
consciousness is slowly lost,and all that kind of stuff.
I only learned that later on,when my husband was in hospital.
But at the time when my mom wasdying, I knew nothing of the
sort.
I guess it was all about me.
(10:05):
When I think about it now, itwas all about me.
I lost my mom.
I don't have that personanymore because it was my rock.
So it's not about her, it'sabout me.
Ashmeeta (10:17):
So, after your mom, you were then left with the
grief of your past that was nowbuilding on the loss of your
mother.
How long did this go beforeyour next stage?
John (10:29):
It was at least about what my husband passed away my late
husband four years ago, so in2008 to 2019, I would say those
were my years with my latehusband and we were basically
just living life.
(10:50):
And on the grief side, I wasjust dealing with things on my
own because I had learned reallysoon from my husband that my
late husband had one day said tome I know you're hurting.
I don't, I'm really supportiveand I'm here to help you in any
way that I can, but I'm feelingstuck and lost and I don't know
(11:12):
how to help you more.
He could help me to the best ofhis ability and the tools that
he had and he had a fewcommunication, kept
communication open, so we wouldalways talk about things.
But he made a very interestingstatement to me one day and he
said I have never lost a parent.
I don't know what it feels liketo lose a parent, so I can't
(11:34):
even relate to anything thatyou're feeling.
I can see you said, but I can'trelate to anything that you're
feeling I can try to, so that Ihad a choice at that moment and
I don't even understand how Idid this and why I looked at it
in this specific way.
But at that moment I decidedthat he was being honest with me
(11:59):
about where he stood and wherehe is.
In this situation.
I had a choice to either getupset with him because I'm
feeling that he's not supportingme, or I have a choice or I can
choose to appreciate and begrateful for his authenticity
(12:22):
and realize that he is not goingto be able to help me.
I need to find other avenues orother people that are more
qualified to help me.
So it had nothing to do withhim not caring or anything of
that sort.
I still wonder sometimes whydid I even think of it that way?
(12:44):
I honestly still don't know why, but that was a turning point
for me.
So then I realized okay, I'mliving a double life here.
I'm going to take care of myfamily, but I'm going to deal
with this grief silently, on myown terms.
Ashmeeta (13:00):
Did you share your grief with others at that time?
John (13:04):
There were very few people that I could share my grief
with, the grief that Iexperienced when my mom lost.
When I lost my mom, my brother,his wife, I could not even
share it with my dad because mydad was not that emotional, he
was not the type of person whowould have to speak his emotions
.
Ashmeeta (13:23):
Yes.
John (13:24):
But my brother and his wife.
Those were the two people thatI could openly talk to about my
mom and what any thoughts asthey came up when they came up
as many times as I needed to.
It also brought us closertogether as a family.
So I always think of mysister-in-law more as a sister
(13:46):
than in-law.
Ashmeeta (13:48):
Was she an effective advocate for you.
John (13:52):
She was pretty, her demeanor, just her personality,
such that she was.
She's just a really kindheartedperson.
So it was easy to talk to herand she never really judged or
gave her opinion about anythingin that way.
So I found her to be.
It was very helpful.
(14:12):
And she was just newly marriedas well.
My brother and her were justmarried for like only two, three
years before, maybe four yearsbefore my mom passed away, so we
were also still getting to knoweach other and things like that
.
So it just worked.
Relationships are like that.
It depends on the investmentand how much you put in and how
(14:34):
motivated you are to want tomake that relationship work.
So I guess maybe both of usplayed a part and we made it
work.
Ashmeeta (14:42):
Now, are you referring to your sister-in-law or your
husband?
My sister-in-law, my brother'swife, yes, so, at this point in
your life that you've had thisdouble whammy of profound loss,
how did you find the strength toturn the page, so to speak?
Do you have advice around thisthat you could give to others
(15:03):
struggling in the same way?
How would you convey thatexperience into aid for others?
John (15:10):
I would say my journey has taken me to various different
places.
One is spiritual scriptures,and I've done a lot of reading
and tried to understand variousdifferent scriptures and
especially related to death andlife and that kind of stuff Just
(15:32):
trying so that I could makesense of it in my mind and it
doesn't control me.
But also other things likemeditation, breath work,
understanding my thoughts.
Where do they come from?
How do they control me?
(15:52):
Do they have control over me?
That kind of stuff, how do Ireact in different situations?
So, as I experimented withthese things over time and I've
been doing this since my mompassed away, so a lot of these
techniques were things that Iwas slowly doing way back from
2008 when my mom died and overtime I noticed that my mind, I
(16:17):
started seeing things verydifferently when it came to my
thoughts.
So thoughts would come into mymind and I would feel they would
be very limiting thoughts.
They'd be the kind of thoughtsthat make me feel like I'm a
victim or I deserve whathappened to me or all of those
kind of things, and justdissecting that thought and
(16:44):
trying to find that hope or thepositivity in that thought was
work that I had to do for myself.
Nobody could do that for me.
So as I kept doing that, Irealized that there was one
simple thing that I needed to dofor myself.
Every time I found myself in asituation where I was feeling
(17:06):
stressed, or the environment wasmaking me feel anxious or
stressed is, I would always askmyself this question so what
story are you going to make outof what's going on right now?
How are you going to allow thisto affect you?
How are you going to allow thisto change who you are?
And also, how are you going toreact to this?
And that's where the choicescame in and my thoughts.
(17:29):
I started working with thosethoughts and talking more to
myself.
Lot of self-talking, oh my God,it seems like I've been by all
parent at some point.
Ashmeeta (17:40):
Well, again, going back into this moment, as you
have your sister-in-law as a forsupport, your husband is doing
the best that he can you turn totrying to teach yourself, I
guess, from the scriptures in,would you say, in your church.
John (18:01):
Yes, mostly scriptures in, like the Vedic philosophy.
Oh, okay, yes.
Ashmeeta (18:07):
I wasn't sure how you're using that word, but you
turn to a higher source forinspiration by the old ones or
the older?
Culture right, yes Would be thesafe to say it would be like
the writings of your ancestors.
John (18:24):
In a sense, yes, it's yeah .
Ashmeeta (18:27):
So how did you boil that all down and move forward
with that?
Was there something that wasorganically changing, or were
you starting to see yourselfdifferently or seeing the world
differently?
John (18:41):
I was seeing the way I used the way I react as my gauge
.
Previously I would maybe getupset get emotionally upset by a
specific person sayingsomething or behaving a certain
way, or I may even feelthreatened by a person's
behavior or an interaction witha specific person and over time
I noticed that person doesn'tbother me that much anymore, no
(19:05):
matter what they do.
I'm not feeling threatenedanymore.
I am not reacting.
I'm not the button.
You know they can't push mybuttons that easily.
So that is my gauge.
Ashmeeta (19:18):
I know when we are feeling vulnerable we can, just
can't share our deepest emotionswith anybody, and even amongst
our friends to be vulnerablewith.
We have to feel safe and wehave to feel that, no matter how
, we express our grief how wereact physically or emotionally,
that we're not gonna be judged,and so that for me, there's
(19:44):
fewer people where we canactually feel like that around.
Were you able to distill asmaller group of people that you
trusted 100%?
John (19:57):
You know, that is an amazing act.
In my mind, the only person whocan be that is my mother.
I have found those quantitiesof her, maybe one quantity in
one person, another in adifferent person, but not one
person with all of thosequalities.
So that then makes my life andmakes things a little more
(20:20):
challenging in a sense, becauseI need to be.
I found that I do need to becareful who I talk to, what I
say to them and in what like towhat level.
I can't be totally vulnerableall the time, because that then
I basically am setting myself upfor failure in a sense.
(20:43):
The only person I can over timeI've learned as well,
especially after the passing ofmy husband that I can truly do
that with and I am still a workin progress with that is myself.
Ashmeeta (20:54):
Francis Weller that we were speaking about earlier he
says that and I believe thisfrom my experience is true is
that you can't be the containerof your grief and be able to
grieve at the same time, andthat's why we either have one or
two close people to us that wecan share our grief, or we go to
(21:18):
grief circles where othergrievers become the container
for us to grieve in, and so weknow we're not gonna be judged
because they're the same.
It's the one thing that weshare, and this group is deep
grief, and so I'm just wonderingthat.
I just can't imagine and I knowfor myself, I would just shut
(21:39):
down and just contain my grief.
But then it becomes unattendedgrief, and that's when it gets
hard and it just sits there inus.
And then it makes the soul justfight more Because it needs to
express itself and we're notallowing that part of ourselves
(22:03):
to do that kind of work.
John (22:06):
And I'm wondering when did you hit?
Ashmeeta (22:07):
that point.
John (22:08):
Now that you mentioned that, I just reminded of
something, two things that werevery helpful for me just
immediately after my husband hadpassed away.
But then the pandemic.
Six months yeah, about sixmonths later, the pandemic hit.
So it made things even worse.
But for that, six months beforethe pandemic hit, there was
some avenues.
For that it was very helpful.
(22:30):
The one was grief.
It's called Grief Share.
It's an organization thatoffers like a six or eight week
program.
We meet once a week and gothrough this workbook.
Another one was the funeral homehad in us had a social worker
that had reached out to me andshe, when I took her up on her
(22:51):
offer I would meet with her oncea week, and the environment and
the safe space that she createdfor me.
I felt so welcome there and Iwas able to be make myself
vulnerable with her A totalstranger.
But yes, I was able to makemyself vulnerable.
So, yes, that did come.
And then hospice as well hasbut they do more of the group
(23:14):
kind of sessions.
So you're going to this groupand there's a whole bunch of
people there and they sharing onthis various different
information with you, which isalso super helpful.
So I had a one on one and thenI had this little intimate group
which was the Grief Share, butthen I had this really huge
group which was with the hospice.
So between those three in thatfirst six months it was pretty
(23:35):
beneficial.
Ashmeeta (23:36):
From that experience.
Where did the inspiration comethen to become a grief advocate,
and is that something changedin you?
And I get the sense that you'rediscovering some freedom that
allowed you to be less clouded.
(23:57):
Something was changing,something was metamorphic yeah,
morphine, because you starteddeveloping what's your story?
John (24:09):
Yes, I would say it would be.
The one day, as I was.
The pain that's associated withgrief is so intense and made me
feel so stuck and so helplessand so vulnerable and a lot of
these.
Sometimes these things when Ihave a really good meditation
(24:31):
session sometimes it actuallycame to me one day when I was
meditating you are feeling thisintense pain.
This is what this experience isdoing to you.
Imagine what it's doing toother people.
How could you help others withwhat you're doing?
And from that the book evolvedand my website and the group and
(24:55):
everything it started.
There it's it was I got thisexperience, I learned something
from it.
I'm evolving through it.
I'm not going to take it withme when I die.
I want to leave it behind so itcan help whoever it helps, and
that's how that was thebeginning of how this whole
thing started.
Ashmeeta (25:15):
So did it start after your husband's passing?
Yes, yes, and he was.
He was a big supporter, ortried to be there for you.
That experience, ashmeeta,working with your husband,
working with you when his timecame, were you able to support
him on his preparation to pass?
John (25:36):
My goodness, that was one interesting, crazy role of
posterite.
Pancreatic cancer is my veryfirst experience having to be
the caregiver of someone who hascancer.
It played a number on myhusband.
It played a number on me andour family.
(25:58):
It was as much as we tried tosupport and be there for each
other, the family that wecreated.
It lasted as long as it could.
Once the cancer took over andturned, basically dissolved him
in, took his muscles.
He was bedridden.
He was home for a long enoughtime where I was his caregiver.
(26:19):
But once he got into hospiceand things changed and he was
not ready to give up.
Even in that state he was notready to give up, but it changed
everything.
Cancer is just such a crazy.
I don't think we could haveever been prepared, even if we
had a game plan ahead of time.
Ashmeeta (26:41):
Would it be too bold to ask you what you mean by it?
Changed everything.
John (26:46):
It changed the quality of our relationships.
It stole the hard work that weput into building our
relationship and our familyrelationship with our kids.
As we all know, relationshipswork two ways.
Because he wouldn't just giveup easily.
(27:10):
He would try every avenue oranything.
He was not going to give up.
It came to that disease.
Just okay, guys, I'm going toshow you what I made of you.
You don't know what I can do.
And it took control.
It didn't matter.
Everything was just slowlyslipping away and it became so
(27:30):
intense because the drugs thatthey had him on as well were
really strong painkillers.
So he was just not the sameperson anymore and I think he
was really bitter because theway things were going and he
wasn't ready to go, he wasn'tready to leave.
So as his caregiver and theysay this is common as the
(27:52):
caregiver it all fell on me.
So he would really, in hisstrange, weird ways, take it out
on me, either give me the signof treatment or complain about
something.
So it was something that Ididn't do, but I'm grateful for
the social worker that wasinvolved in his care, who
(28:13):
continually kept me focused onwhat needs to happen right now
and also on his mindset, and shecontinually reminded me.
Remember, he's saying thesemean things, but don't take it
personally, this is not him,this is the disease.
Speaking Just.
I know it's hard, so she waslike that coach on this side
(28:37):
reminding me how, but it wasreally hard.
Imagine being told that you'resuch a pathetic human being that
you're not doing anything tohelp someone and you know in
your heart that you're doingeverything that you can.
Ashmeeta (28:51):
Yes, I do.
John (28:53):
And you still need to love that person.
Not me too.
You still love that person.
She's telling me to love him,but that's just the nature and
the beast of what it's like totake care of a person who has a
telenoid illness.
Ashmeeta (29:09):
I know it's a tremendous period of grieving,
even for your husband the lossof everything that he knew yes,
and it's just such a hard timefor a couple, but you got
through that and did it take youbefore you felt settled.
John (29:27):
It's going on for years.
I still have my moments, so I'mstill walking this path.
I feel like it gets.
Some days are really good.
I have it all together.
I'm doing what I need to do.
Living in the moment helps.
Reminding myself that what do Ineed to do right now, what are
(29:49):
the most important things that Ineed to do right now, helps me
to stay focused.
But our minds are like thatThey'll either take us to the
past or they'll take us to thefuture, and then we start making
stories in our heads about allof these things, and sometimes a
lot of these things are noteven the truth.
It's just our imaginationthat's gone crazy, and then I
(30:12):
start believing it.
Ashmeeta (30:14):
I found with my grief that it's still.
I always say, you never knowwhen it comes up to bite you.
For me I know.
I had this terrible grieve whenmy son told me him and his wife
were pregnant, that theirmother wasn't present.
(30:36):
Same thing, but a week later mydaughter told me that her and
her husband are pregnant andagain it was just such a joyous
moment.
But the missing was quitepainful for the family and that
she was such a mother.
So it just becomes overwhelming.
(30:58):
And then it clears and it leavesand then I guess now in my
state I'm grateful for whenthose moments come, but I know
that I laugh so much more now.
I absolutely enjoy everything.
Every day is a beautiful day, Idon't care how, if it's raining
or foggy, snowing or hot, cold,it's just.
(31:20):
I see everything completelydifferent from this grief and
I'm not sure if I read somewhereor just came to me that for me
the passing of my parents, thepassing of my former partner,
grief, is like the last giftthat they can give us, and it's
(31:40):
for me, it's that journeythrough grief that, although
very painful, is thattransformative energy that makes
us bigger where it gives us agreater capacity to love, a
greater capacity to feel joy,compassion and the weller he
says it's can't have lovewithout grief and grief doesn't
(32:03):
exist without love.
And but knowing that everythingthat we love we will lose.
Now, what came first?
Was it your book, youroperation that you got going
between writing your book, youhave the growth story hub, you
(32:25):
have this website.
It's quite you really blossomedin using the grief.
And I was speaking with a goodfriend of mine, which actually
she was my guest on my veryfirst podcast, kathy Gleason
who's?
The host on as I Live in Grief,and it was all about how we use
(32:46):
our grief For me it's.
I have a grief tending workshopsthat I put on with my partner,
grief circles, and I startedthis podcast, and it's all from
this drive and my experiencewith grief and I see you,
similar to Kathy and me we werethe three amigos now trying to
use our grief to expand griefliteracy and to help others.
(33:12):
So can you give us a bit of anidea of where this operation of
yours came from, yes, and how itstarted.
John (33:24):
So the book came first and with the book came the website.
But a few months after the bookcame out I thought of the group
, and it was actually around thetime of the anniversary of my
husband's death, so I thoughtit'd be a nice way to honor him
as well, to have a group where Icould put out different things
(33:50):
about loss and death, this topicthat not many people want to
talk about, so shy away from andI don't have a problem talking
about it because it's justinformation.
I really want to just make itmore comfortable for people.
So if I find any information oranything out there that would
trigger somebody to see thingsin a different way, writing my
(34:15):
book was, in a way, almosttherapeutic.
It was in the middle of thepandemic, so we had not much we
could do or go, not many placeswe could go, so I did have a bit
more time on my hands and eventhough we're kids and all that
kind of stuff, but becauseeverything was from home, so it
(34:35):
was very therapeutic it was Ihad to make myself a little
vulnerable to understand certainthings so that I could I just
put some information out thereabout my journey.
So I think on a whole it wasI'm glad I did it.
I do still second guess myself,and I hope that I haven't.
(34:56):
I still feel like, oh, maybe Ishouldn't have said that, maybe
I shouldn't have said this.
But I think in the biggerscheme of things it's not.
The book is not really about me.
It is about what I have drawnfrom the experiences that I've
(35:18):
had and how that can help others.
It's not my story.
It's not like a story in thatsense.
It's not entertainment, morelike a workbook, would you say.
Ashmeeta (35:34):
Is it like a workbook?
John (35:37):
Yes, because at the end of every chapter I do have some
questions that I've added aswell, as person reads the
chapter and maybe things come upfor them the space at the end
of every chapter to maybe writedown some notes and things like
that so yeah, this would be agood place to end our story for
(35:58):
now, ashmi.
Ashmeeta (36:00):
Okay, sure, I just wanted to thank you so much for
sharing your journey and whathas the gifts that you created
to pass on with your book andyour words and your website and
becoming an advocate forbuilding grief literacy in the
(36:25):
greater population, and wecertainly wish you well Any last
words.
John (36:29):
Thank you, john, it's been a pleasure talking to you today
.
I really have enjoyed this.
And last words here grief doesnot need to define or destroy us
.
We can do this together, alone,as a collective.
Definitely, it's nothing to beafraid of, just need to take
(36:51):
that one little step, one at atime.
Ashmeeta (36:53):
All right, thank you Thanks.
Hi, my name is Ashmeeta Ramamadhu.
I am a resilience and griefsupport advocate, an educator,
entrepreneur, author and alifelong learner.
And the reason I call myself alifelong learner is because of
the many life-changingexperiences from my early 20s.
Things like rejection,miscarriages, the death of both
(00:21):
my parents and my husband haveexposed me to emotions of
intense grief and I felt stuckand lost and I had no way to do
anything but venture out ontothe path of self-discovery.
And I've come to appreciate theimportance of personal growth
(00:42):
and understand the impact mythoughts have on shaping my
reality.
Ashmeeta (00:45):
Thank, you, Ashmeeta.
I know from doing a bit ofresearch on your story prior to
speaking this evening.
I know that there's been biglosses that you've had
throughout your lifetime andthat your story is deeply moving
.
What I want to do is just touchon your background and your
(01:06):
personal journey, so can youshare how these experiences have
shaped your approach to helpingothers to navigate their grief?
John (01:18):
So my experience with grief in various as I said
earlier in various differentforms started way back when I
was in my 20s, and at that pointin my life it came more as a
shock to me.
Because you're young, you haveall these expectations and you
expect, you have these plans andyou expect things to go a
(01:38):
certain way, and then I findmyself being rejected.
I also find myself havingmiscarriage and I am totally
lost and taken by that and Ijust wanted to hide away, which
was helpful in some ways, butalso it was not helpful because
hiding away is not actually theanswer.
(01:59):
If I'm hiding for a reason toactually help myself and so that
I could get back out into theworld again, then I guess that's
healthy.
But if I'm hiding because I'mafraid of the world and I'm
afraid that people are going tohurt me or anything that happens
is going to hurt me, that's awhole different thing altogether
and initially that is what Iwas doing.
Ashmeeta (02:21):
Can we go back several years before your 20s?
I was just wondering.
We all seem to be stayingsomewhat with a little bit with
our childhood, or how weinterpret the world, or
interpret our parents and justpeople that come into us day in,
day out, and I was justwondering what was your
childhood like?
Where did you grow up?
John (02:40):
My childhood was pretty normal.
I wear I call normal that wordI use very generally here it
wasn't.
Yes, I come from a small family.
My dad was an only child.
He had to fend for himself fromthe age of 13, living in a new
country all alone with somefamily friends.
(03:01):
His parents left him in adifferent country other than
where he was born, so he grew uphaving to basically fend for
himself, that he was living inanother person's house, had to
earn his keep, all of that kindof stuff.
So his mindset was important tohim, was very different
(03:21):
compared to another 13-year-oldin his time, in his day and time
.
My mom came from a bigger familythough their four sisters,
including my mom and brother,and then her dad had four
brothers.
So she came from this hugeextended family system and in
those days people lived eithernext door to each other if not
(03:42):
in the same house also.
So her dynamics were verydifferent.
For my brother and myself we'rejust the two.
There's just the two of usBecause my dad and mom they
basically had to.
It was a make or break for them.
They started off from veryhumble beginnings and worked
themselves to a point where theywere comfortable with whatever
(04:06):
they, how they wanted to be, butfor my brother and myself, on
the receiving side of that lifethat they created for us, we had
so much more opportunities.
They were very open-minded myparents, even though, living in
culture that we come from, I'mIndian, my culture is certain
(04:28):
ways and things and all thatkind of stuff that goes along
with living in a specificcommunity.
But having said all of that, Ireally do think that my parents
were very accepting andopen-minded.
Ashmeeta (04:41):
Were you a strong individual at a young age, like
in your early twenties?
John (04:46):
Oh yeah, I was pretty old in my eights.
I was a little bit of a rebelwhen I was sixteen, seventeen in
my teenage years, but not arebel in the form of causing
trouble that would affectanybody, but rebel in my family.
Ashmeeta (04:59):
I always.
John (05:00):
I guess I got that from my parents, so even though they
were old, it backfired a littleon them as well.
Because, okay, we have this kid.
We encourage you to speak andcombine.
We encourage her to say whatshe's feeling.
This is all coming back at us.
We sometimes even foundourselves uncomfortable.
Ashmeeta (05:16):
No, this is too much.
So after your early twenties oryou started to move through
this first, would you say thatwas the biggest grief that
you've experienced in yourlifetime?
In your early twenties?
John (05:32):
At that time.
Yes, it was the biggest.
It molded me, changed me and itchanged all my interactions
with anybody that I had anyinteractions with in the world,
especially in that sort ofrelationship where you needed to
be close to someone orsomething.
Ashmeeta (05:50):
It definitely so then, after this, you're like the
next big event in your life Wasit the loss of your father?
John (05:59):
No, the next loss was in 2008, the loss of my mom.
Ashmeeta (06:04):
That would be a big one.
John (06:06):
That was my very first experience with death up close
and personal, because I lost mymother, the one person who was
my rock.
So that pushed me into a wholedifferent space.
I was married by then.
I had two kids, two young kids,two boys, and we had just moved
(06:29):
to the US with my husband's joband a year later this all
happened.
So being in a new country,still trying to understand how,
to the dynamics of justeverything that comes along with
moving to a new place, thisreality, and then the added
(06:49):
stuff of having to deal with thegrief and the disillusionment,
not just walking around withthis weird thought in my head
all the time what's the point ofthis?
I'm going to die anyway.
I remember thinking that for thelongest time I'm going to die
anyway.
What's the point of this?
Why do I need to do this?
My husband brought that to.
My late husband had broughtthat to my attention a few times
.
I noticed you don't seem tohave that enthusiasm in you
(07:13):
anymore, the way you used to,and I'm not sure what's going on
with you.
But I just want to bring toyour attention that I'm noticing
this about you.
Ashmeeta (07:20):
Yeah, and that's all part of grieving, isn't it?
John (07:23):
It's absolutely part of grieving.
Ashmeeta (07:25):
I just make this.
I always say grief makes itsmall while it's doing its job.
Your mother's passing was it along process for you and your
family, or was it somewhatsudden?
John (07:38):
It was sudden, it happened within a week, so it happened
too quick.
By the time I got there she wasalready in that unconscious
state in hospital and all ofthose machines and things like
that.
I had gone there, got therewith this big expectation,
unrealistic expectation, but atthe time I didn't think it was
(08:02):
that I was going to get thereand my mom was going to hear my
voice and she was going to be soexcited to see me and
everything was going to be fine.
Then I learned quickly that itwas not going to be the case.
Ashmeeta (08:13):
Did you were able to have any I don't know
conversations with her beforethis had?
John (08:18):
taken place?
No, oh, before I left to go toSouth Africa.
Yes, I did.
In Sweden, South Africa.
I did have a conversation withher and, the strangest thing, I
had spoken to her and said toher that mom, I don't want
anything to happen to you.
I hope you get better soon, andall that kind of stuff.
She said something to me.
(08:39):
She said you know life anddeath, it's something that's
going to happen, but I need youto remember one thing you have
kids and you need to take careof them.
That is what my mom said to me.
Ashmeeta (08:49):
I'm like yes, I know that mom.
John (08:51):
I'm interested in that.
I don't want anything to happento you.
That's all she said to me whenI got there there was no chance
to have any conversation becauseshe was already unconscious, in
an unconscious state by thattime.
Ashmeeta (09:06):
Yeah, oh, sorry to hear that part.
Were you able to communicate atall by holding her?
John (09:13):
Yes, I got there I touched her hand and I said mom, I'm
here.
And she just made a sound To me.
That was her acknowledgementthat she knew.
Ashmeeta (09:21):
I was there.
John (09:22):
A few hours later she was gone.
So yeah, and at that point inmy life I did not even know much
about death.
I didn't know, anything abouthow the body prepares for death,
the kind of signs and thingsthat happen as your body is
(09:44):
slowly declining, the systemstarts shutting down, and the
whole thing about the breathing,how it becomes shallower, her
consciousness is slowly lost,and all that kind of stuff.
I only learned that later on,when my husband was in hospital.
But at the time when my mom wasdying, I knew nothing of the
sort.
I guess it was all about me.
(10:05):
When I think about it now, itwas all about me.
I lost my mom.
I don't have that personanymore because it was my rock.
So it's not about her, it'sabout me.
Ashmeeta (10:17):
So, after your mom, you were then left with the
grief of your past that was nowbuilding on the loss of your
mother.
How long did this go beforeyour next stage?
John (10:29):
It was at least about what my husband passed away my late
husband four years ago, so in2008 to 2019, I would say those
were my years with my latehusband and we were basically
just living life.
(10:50):
And on the grief side, I wasjust dealing with things on my
own because I had learned reallysoon from my husband that my
late husband had one day said tome I know you're hurting.
I don't, I'm really supportiveand I'm here to help you in any
way that I can, but I'm feelingstuck and lost and I don't know
(11:12):
how to help you more.
He could help me to the best ofhis ability and the tools that
he had and he had a fewcommunication, kept
communication open, so we wouldalways talk about things.
But he made a very interestingstatement to me one day and he
said I have never lost a parent.
I don't know what it feels liketo lose a parent, so I can't
(11:34):
even relate to anything thatyou're feeling.
I can see you said, but I can'trelate to anything that you're
feeling I can try to, so that Ihad a choice at that moment and
I don't even understand how Idid this and why I looked at it
in this specific way.
But at that moment I decidedthat he was being honest with me
(11:59):
about where he stood and wherehe is.
In this situation.
I had a choice to either getupset with him because I'm
feeling that he's not supportingme, or I have a choice or I can
choose to appreciate and begrateful for his authenticity
(12:22):
and realize that he is not goingto be able to help me.
I need to find other avenues orother people that are more
qualified to help me.
So it had nothing to do withhim not caring or anything of
that sort.
I still wonder sometimes whydid I even think of it that way?
(12:44):
I honestly still don't know why, but that was a turning point
for me.
So then I realized okay, I'mliving a double life here.
I'm going to take care of myfamily, but I'm going to deal
with this grief silently, on myown terms.
Ashmeeta (13:00):
Did you share your grief with others at that time?
John (13:04):
There were very few people that I could share my grief
with, the grief that Iexperienced when my mom lost.
When I lost my mom, my brother,his wife, I could not even
share it with my dad because mydad was not that emotional, he
was not the type of person whowould have to speak his emotions
.
Ashmeeta (13:23):
Yes.
John (13:24):
But my brother and his wife.
Those were the two people thatI could openly talk to about my
mom and what any thoughts asthey came up when they came up
as many times as I needed to.
It also brought us closertogether as a family.
So I always think of mysister-in-law more as a sister
(13:46):
than in-law.
Ashmeeta (13:48):
Was she an effective advocate for you.
John (13:52):
She was pretty, her demeanor, just her personality,
such that she was.
She's just a really kindheartedperson.
So it was easy to talk to herand she never really judged or
gave her opinion about anythingin that way.
So I found her to be.
It was very helpful.
(14:12):
And she was just newly marriedas well.
My brother and her were justmarried for like only two, three
years before, maybe four yearsbefore my mom passed away, so we
were also still getting to knoweach other and things like that
.
So it just worked.
Relationships are like that.
It depends on the investmentand how much you put in and how
(14:34):
motivated you are to want tomake that relationship work.
So I guess maybe both of usplayed a part and we made it
work.
Ashmeeta (14:42):
Now, are you referring to your sister-in-law or your
husband?
My sister-in-law, my brother'swife, yes, so, at this point in
your life that you've had thisdouble whammy of profound loss,
how did you find the strength toturn the page, so to speak?
Do you have advice around thisthat you could give to others
(15:03):
struggling in the same way?
How would you convey thatexperience into aid for others?
John (15:10):
I would say my journey has taken me to various different
places.
One is spiritual scriptures,and I've done a lot of reading
and tried to understand variousdifferent scriptures and
especially related to death andlife and that kind of stuff Just
(15:32):
trying so that I could makesense of it in my mind and it
doesn't control me.
But also other things likemeditation, breath work,
understanding my thoughts.
Where do they come from?
How do they control me?
(15:52):
Do they have control over me?
That kind of stuff, how do Ireact in different situations?
So, as I experimented withthese things over time and I've
been doing this since my mompassed away, so a lot of these
techniques were things that Iwas slowly doing way back from
2008 when my mom died and overtime I noticed that my mind, I
(16:17):
started seeing things verydifferently when it came to my
thoughts.
So thoughts would come into mymind and I would feel they would
be very limiting thoughts.
They'd be the kind of thoughtsthat make me feel like I'm a
victim or I deserve whathappened to me or all of those
kind of things, and justdissecting that thought and
(16:44):
trying to find that hope or thepositivity in that thought was
work that I had to do for myself.
Nobody could do that for me.
So as I kept doing that, Irealized that there was one
simple thing that I needed to dofor myself.
Every time I found myself in asituation where I was feeling
(17:06):
stressed, or the environment wasmaking me feel anxious or
stressed is, I would always askmyself this question so what
story are you going to make outof what's going on right now?
How are you going to allow thisto affect you?
How are you going to allow thisto change who you are?
And also, how are you going toreact to this?
And that's where the choicescame in and my thoughts.
(17:29):
I started working with thosethoughts and talking more to
myself.
Lot of self-talking, oh my God,it seems like I've been by all
parent at some point.
Ashmeeta (17:40):
Well, again, going back into this moment, as you
have your sister-in-law as a forsupport, your husband is doing
the best that he can you turn totrying to teach yourself, I
guess, from the scriptures in,would you say, in your church.
John (18:01):
Yes, mostly scriptures in, like the Vedic philosophy.
Oh, okay, yes.
Ashmeeta (18:07):
I wasn't sure how you're using that word, but you
turn to a higher source forinspiration by the old ones or
the older?
Culture right, yes Would be thesafe to say it would be like
the writings of your ancestors.
John (18:24):
In a sense, yes, it's yeah .
Ashmeeta (18:27):
So how did you boil that all down and move forward
with that?
Was there something that wasorganically changing, or were
you starting to see yourselfdifferently or seeing the world
differently?
John (18:41):
I was seeing the way I used the way I react as my gauge
.
Previously I would maybe getupset get emotionally upset by a
specific person sayingsomething or behaving a certain
way, or I may even feelthreatened by a person's
behavior or an interaction witha specific person and over time
I noticed that person doesn'tbother me that much anymore, no
(19:05):
matter what they do.
I'm not feeling threatenedanymore.
I am not reacting.
I'm not the button.
You know they can't push mybuttons that easily.
So that is my gauge.
Ashmeeta (19:18):
I know when we are feeling vulnerable we can, just
can't share our deepest emotionswith anybody, and even amongst
our friends to be vulnerablewith.
We have to feel safe and wehave to feel that, no matter how
, we express our grief how wereact physically or emotionally,
that we're not gonna be judged,and so that for me, there's
(19:44):
fewer people where we canactually feel like that around.
Were you able to distill asmaller group of people that you
trusted 100%?
John (19:57):
You know, that is an amazing act.
In my mind, the only person whocan be that is my mother.
I have found those quantitiesof her, maybe one quantity in
one person, another in adifferent person, but not one
person with all of thosequalities.
So that then makes my life andmakes things a little more
(20:20):
challenging in a sense, becauseI need to be.
I found that I do need to becareful who I talk to, what I
say to them and in what like towhat level.
I can't be totally vulnerableall the time, because that then
I basically am setting myself upfor failure in a sense.
(20:43):
The only person I can over timeI've learned as well,
especially after the passing ofmy husband that I can truly do
that with and I am still a workin progress with that is myself.
Ashmeeta (20:54):
Francis Weller that we were speaking about earlier he
says that and I believe thisfrom my experience is true is
that you can't be the containerof your grief and be able to
grieve at the same time, andthat's why we either have one or
two close people to us that wecan share our grief, or we go to
(21:18):
grief circles where othergrievers become the container
for us to grieve in, and so weknow we're not gonna be judged
because they're the same.
It's the one thing that weshare, and this group is deep
grief, and so I'm just wonderingthat.
I just can't imagine and I knowfor myself, I would just shut
(21:39):
down and just contain my grief.
But then it becomes unattendedgrief, and that's when it gets
hard and it just sits there inus.
And then it makes the soul justfight more Because it needs to
express itself and we're notallowing that part of ourselves
(22:03):
to do that kind of work.
John (22:06):
And I'm wondering when did you hit?
Ashmeeta (22:07):
that point.
John (22:08):
Now that you mentioned that, I just reminded of
something, two things that werevery helpful for me just
immediately after my husband hadpassed away.
But then the pandemic.
Six months yeah, about sixmonths later, the pandemic hit.
So it made things even worse.
But for that, six months beforethe pandemic hit, there was
some avenues.
For that it was very helpful.
(22:30):
The one was grief.
It's called Grief Share.
It's an organization thatoffers like a six or eight week
program.
We meet once a week and gothrough this workbook.
Another one was the funeral homehad in us had a social worker
that had reached out to me andshe, when I took her up on her
(22:51):
offer I would meet with her oncea week, and the environment and
the safe space that she createdfor me.
I felt so welcome there and Iwas able to be make myself
vulnerable with her A totalstranger.
But yes, I was able to makemyself vulnerable.
So, yes, that did come.
And then hospice as well hasbut they do more of the group
(23:14):
kind of sessions.
So you're going to this groupand there's a whole bunch of
people there and they sharing onthis various different
information with you, which isalso super helpful.
So I had a one on one and thenI had this little intimate group
which was the Grief Share, butthen I had this really huge
group which was with the hospice.
So between those three in thatfirst six months it was pretty
(23:35):
beneficial.
Ashmeeta (23:36):
From that experience.
Where did the inspiration comethen to become a grief advocate,
and is that something changedin you?
And I get the sense that you'rediscovering some freedom that
allowed you to be less clouded.
(23:57):
Something was changing,something was metamorphic yeah,
morphine, because you starteddeveloping what's your story?
John (24:09):
Yes, I would say it would be.
The one day, as I was.
The pain that's associated withgrief is so intense and made me
feel so stuck and so helplessand so vulnerable and a lot of
these.
Sometimes these things when Ihave a really good meditation
(24:31):
session sometimes it actuallycame to me one day when I was
meditating you are feeling thisintense pain.
This is what this experience isdoing to you.
Imagine what it's doing toother people.
How could you help others withwhat you're doing?
And from that the book evolvedand my website and the group and
(24:55):
everything it started.
There it's it was I got thisexperience, I learned something
from it.
I'm evolving through it.
I'm not going to take it withme when I die.
I want to leave it behind so itcan help whoever it helps, and
that's how that was thebeginning of how this whole
thing started.
Ashmeeta (25:15):
So did it start after your husband's passing?
Yes, yes, and he was.
He was a big supporter, ortried to be there for you.
That experience, ashmeeta,working with your husband,
working with you when his timecame, were you able to support
him on his preparation to pass?
John (25:36):
My goodness, that was one interesting, crazy role of
posterite.
Pancreatic cancer is my veryfirst experience having to be
the caregiver of someone who hascancer.
It played a number on myhusband.
It played a number on me andour family.
(25:58):
It was as much as we tried tosupport and be there for each
other, the family that wecreated.
It lasted as long as it could.
Once the cancer took over andturned, basically dissolved him
in, took his muscles.
He was bedridden.
He was home for a long enoughtime where I was his caregiver.
(26:19):
But once he got into hospiceand things changed and he was
not ready to give up.
Even in that state he was notready to give up, but it changed
everything.
Cancer is just such a crazy.
I don't think we could haveever been prepared, even if we
had a game plan ahead of time.
Ashmeeta (26:41):
Would it be too bold to ask you what you mean by it?
Changed everything.
John (26:46):
It changed the quality of our relationships.
It stole the hard work that weput into building our
relationship and our familyrelationship with our kids.
As we all know, relationshipswork two ways.
Because he wouldn't just giveup easily.
(27:10):
He would try every avenue oranything.
He was not going to give up.
It came to that disease.
Just okay, guys, I'm going toshow you what I made of you.
You don't know what I can do.
And it took control.
It didn't matter.
Everything was just slowlyslipping away and it became so
(27:30):
intense because the drugs thatthey had him on as well were
really strong painkillers.
So he was just not the sameperson anymore and I think he
was really bitter because theway things were going and he
wasn't ready to go, he wasn'tready to leave.
So as his caregiver and theysay this is common as the
(27:52):
caregiver it all fell on me.
So he would really, in hisstrange, weird ways, take it out
on me, either give me the signof treatment or complain about
something.
So it was something that Ididn't do, but I'm grateful for
the social worker that wasinvolved in his care, who
(28:13):
continually kept me focused onwhat needs to happen right now
and also on his mindset, and shecontinually reminded me.
Remember, he's saying thesemean things, but don't take it
personally, this is not him,this is the disease.
Speaking Just.
I know it's hard, so she waslike that coach on this side
(28:37):
reminding me how, but it wasreally hard.
Imagine being told that you'resuch a pathetic human being that
you're not doing anything tohelp someone and you know in
your heart that you're doingeverything that you can.
Ashmeeta (28:51):
Yes, I do.
John (28:53):
And you still need to love that person.
Not me too.
You still love that person.
She's telling me to love him,but that's just the nature and
the beast of what it's like totake care of a person who has a
telenoid illness.
Ashmeeta (29:09):
I know it's a tremendous period of grieving,
even for your husband the lossof everything that he knew yes,
and it's just such a hard timefor a couple, but you got
through that and did it take youbefore you felt settled.
John (29:27):
It's going on for years.
I still have my moments, so I'mstill walking this path.
I feel like it gets.
Some days are really good.
I have it all together.
I'm doing what I need to do.
Living in the moment helps.
Reminding myself that what do Ineed to do right now, what are
(29:49):
the most important things that Ineed to do right now, helps me
to stay focused.
But our minds are like thatThey'll either take us to the
past or they'll take us to thefuture, and then we start making
stories in our heads about allof these things, and sometimes a
lot of these things are noteven the truth.
It's just our imaginationthat's gone crazy, and then I
(30:12):
start believing it.
Ashmeeta (30:14):
I found with my grief that it's still.
I always say, you never knowwhen it comes up to bite you.
For me I know.
I had this terrible grieve whenmy son told me him and his wife
were pregnant, that theirmother wasn't present.
(30:36):
Same thing, but a week later mydaughter told me that her and
her husband are pregnant andagain it was just such a joyous
moment.
But the missing was quitepainful for the family and that
she was such a mother.
So it just becomes overwhelming.
(30:58):
And then it clears and it leavesand then I guess now in my
state I'm grateful for whenthose moments come, but I know
that I laugh so much more now.
I absolutely enjoy everything.
Every day is a beautiful day, Idon't care how, if it's raining
or foggy, snowing or hot, cold,it's just.
(31:20):
I see everything completelydifferent from this grief and
I'm not sure if I read somewhereor just came to me that for me
the passing of my parents, thepassing of my former partner,
grief, is like the last giftthat they can give us, and it's
(31:40):
for me, it's that journeythrough grief that, although
very painful, is thattransformative energy that makes
us bigger where it gives us agreater capacity to love, a
greater capacity to feel joy,compassion and the weller he
says it's can't have lovewithout grief and grief doesn't
(32:03):
exist without love.
And but knowing that everythingthat we love we will lose.
Now, what came first?
Was it your book, youroperation that you got going
between writing your book, youhave the growth story hub, you
(32:25):
have this website.
It's quite you really blossomedin using the grief.
And I was speaking with a goodfriend of mine, which actually
she was my guest on my veryfirst podcast, kathy Gleason
who's?
The host on as I Live in Grief,and it was all about how we use
(32:46):
our grief For me it's.
I have a grief tending workshopsthat I put on with my partner,
grief circles, and I startedthis podcast, and it's all from
this drive and my experiencewith grief and I see you,
similar to Kathy and me we werethe three amigos now trying to
use our grief to expand griefliteracy and to help others.
(33:12):
So can you give us a bit of anidea of where this operation of
yours came from, yes, and how itstarted.
John (33:24):
So the book came first and with the book came the website.
But a few months after the bookcame out I thought of the group
, and it was actually around thetime of the anniversary of my
husband's death, so I thoughtit'd be a nice way to honor him
as well, to have a group where Icould put out different things
(33:50):
about loss and death, this topicthat not many people want to
talk about, so shy away from andI don't have a problem talking
about it because it's justinformation.
I really want to just make itmore comfortable for people.
So if I find any information oranything out there that would
trigger somebody to see thingsin a different way, writing my
(34:15):
book was, in a way, almosttherapeutic.
It was in the middle of thepandemic, so we had not much we
could do or go, not many placeswe could go, so I did have a bit
more time on my hands and eventhough we're kids and all that
kind of stuff, but becauseeverything was from home, so it
(34:35):
was very therapeutic it was Ihad to make myself a little
vulnerable to understand certainthings so that I could I just
put some information out thereabout my journey.
So I think on a whole it wasI'm glad I did it.
I do still second guess myself,and I hope that I haven't.
(34:56):
I still feel like, oh, maybe Ishouldn't have said that, maybe
I shouldn't have said this.
But I think in the biggerscheme of things it's not.
The book is not really about me.
It is about what I have drawnfrom the experiences that I've
(35:18):
had and how that can help others.
It's not my story.
It's not like a story in thatsense.
It's not entertainment, morelike a workbook, would you say.
Ashmeeta (35:34):
Is it like a workbook?
John (35:37):
Yes, because at the end of every chapter I do have some
questions that I've added aswell, as person reads the
chapter and maybe things come upfor them the space at the end
of every chapter to maybe writedown some notes and things like
that so yeah, this would be agood place to end our story for
(35:58):
now, ashmi.
Ashmeeta (36:00):
Okay, sure, I just wanted to thank you so much for
sharing your journey and whathas the gifts that you created
to pass on with your book andyour words and your website and
becoming an advocate forbuilding grief literacy in the
(36:25):
greater population, and wecertainly wish you well Any last
words.
John (36:29):
Thank you, john, it's been a pleasure talking to you today
.
I really have enjoyed this.
And last words here grief doesnot need to define or destroy us
.
We can do this together, alone,as a collective.
Definitely, it's nothing to beafraid of, just need to take
(36:51):
that one little step, one at atime.
Ashmeeta (36:53):
All right, thank you Thanks.
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