Merging Minds and Spirits
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An insightful dialogue between host John Moir and his guest, Diane Puchbauer, discussing the integration of psychology, shamanism, and the profound impact of horses on healing and personal growth. Diane shares her journey from a troubled relationship with horses in her youth to embracing shamanism and energy psychology, revealing how these elements have transformed her professional practice as a psychologist and shamanic healer. The conversation explores the challenges of merging traditional and alternative healing methods, the role of animals in therapy, and navigating the realms of energy and spirituality within therapeutic contexts.
Introduction to Diane's Work
The Common Threads of Healing
Early Connections to Horses and Healing
Journey into Shamanism
Blending Psychology and Shamanic Practices
Navigating Professional Challenges
Therapeutic Outcomes and Client Stories
Reflections on Personal Growth
Futurism in Therapy Practices
Final Thoughts and Closing
Diane referred to her info for Midge Murphy, lawyer and doctorate in energy medicine Here
Credits
Intro: Far Out on the Pier — Christian Andersen, Epidemic Sound
Outro: Lush Dreams-The New Fools, Epidemic Sound
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Foundation for Shamanic Studies: Explore here
“The Way of the Shaman” book by Michael Harner
Society for Shamanic Practice: Explore here
Connect
John@urbangriefshamans.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John (00:00):
Hello, Diane.
How are you doing today?
Diane (00:03):
I'm doing great.
I'm really happy to be here.
So
John (00:06):
Well, great
Diane (00:07):
to Yeah.
It's great to see you and talkwith you and this is a topic
that's of of real interest forme.
So I'm I'm really excited tohave this conversation.
John (00:18):
Okay.
So where I wanna go, is is Iwant to know about three things:
horses, psychology, andShamanism.
What is the common thread there?
Diane (00:32):
A common thread would be in the service of helping people
, helping people in the way thatthey need to be helped in the
moment that they arrive in thepasture or in my office or on my
Zoom meeting.
And the so the really thecommon thread is we make sense
of what's going on and how do weunravel or reconnect with parts
(00:56):
of ourselves or beings that canhelp support us and the horses
help with that.
I I truly believe that horsesare here as master teachers to
help us be better versions ofourselves.
John (01:10):
Alright.
When you're younger, were youin the horses?
Diane (01:13):
When I was young, they saved my life.
Really.
They saved my life on a numberof of periods of my life when
things were very difficult in mywhole And the first spirit
being that ever came to mebefore I even knew that was a
thing, was a horse.
And I distinctly remembered, isthere a carpooling back from
(01:36):
swim team with a dot in thecountry, so it's long drive.
And I would look out the windowand I'd see this horse.
There was a spirit of horserunning alongside the car
dumping the fence.
And had a bridle and a saddlehorn.
And I remember thinking, well,that horse shouldn't have a
bridle and a saddle horn.
It should just free and I wouldtry to remove the bridal and
(01:59):
saddle and it would reappear.
And I would remove it and Ireappear and it would took years
later when I started to study ashamanism and understood
interactive spirit beings.
That was a spirit horse and Itwas an invitation to come be
with the horse, come ride thehorse.
And, anyway, so a horse was thefirst helping spirit that ever
(02:20):
came to me.
And then there were the factualphysical real horses and
ordinary reality.
When things were difficult inmy home as a child, I would just
go out and be in the pasturewith the horse just standing
there with them or walking withthem through the pasture.
John (02:37):
Mhmm.
Can you share just a little bitmore how you're experiencing
your life at that early age?
Diane (02:42):
Yeah.
Youngest of five.
Children.
And and my mother wasoverwhelmed, and my father
worked.
And I think it's alsoAsperger's, so he was not
available.
Emotionally.
So a lot of I very much wentinward and tried to look for
safe and so nature was my safetyplace.
(03:04):
Inside the home, I feltuncomfortable or made fun of her
.
Criticized judgment.
So going out and being innature was where I felt safe and
being with the horses, or mycat, or my dog, was where I felt
safe.
And so for me, years later,when I encountered Shamanism, it
(03:24):
that was a natural fit becauseit's a very nature based
practice?
John (03:29):
The horses, did they have a sense of the personal distress
that you're experiencing?
Diane (03:36):
I assumed so I was a child.
I don't think I I don't I knowI didn't pay any attention to
that.
I just knew I felt better whenI was with the horse.
And that followed all the waythrough to high school and I was
really depressed.
Like, I was suicidal in highschool because and a girl that I
knew said, oh, I have a friendwho has a horse that needs to be
(03:57):
ridden.
So I would just everyday afterschool go ride this horse, bare
back, out into the Bureau ofLand Management.
And, yeah, I looked back onthat.
Like, I was so depressed Ithink half the time I was crying
while riding the horse.
So I know the horse felt what Iwas feeling because they're
highly telepathic.
They absolutely know what we'refeeling.
(04:18):
And yet the horse was willing.
These horses are willing.
They would they're free to comeand go and they stayed right
there with me.
So I have to believe they wereoffering themselves as in
service and as help and assupport.
John (04:35):
And like your horse spirit .
Diane (04:37):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly.
John (04:40):
What made you go into psychology?
Diane (04:43):
Yeah.
So that's an interesting storyabout that.
Because when I was an undergrad, I was at a Christian school
and I wanted nothing to do withpsychology.
I didn't interest me at all.
I studied culture and pathology, and that was fascinating.
So I was studying people withcuriosity.
That's the distinction I feelbetween psychology and
(05:06):
anthropology is TheAnthropologie was curious.
How are these people living?
Oh, that tribe over there, howdo they do things?
And I unloved that.
And I and we studied Shamanism,not from a we're gonna become
Shamanic, but rather just fromthe curiosity of, oh, there's
all these different indigenousways of interacting with the
(05:27):
world from that spirit based,nature based way.
It was years later that to gointo graduate school, I just
needed to find a way to helppeople, so I needed a
professional degree.
And so becoming a therapist waskind of a natural fit for me
after I'd been a wildernessguide taking troubled kids out
(05:50):
on these wilderness tracks andreally not knowing how to
counsel, but I knew how to takethem out and enjoy you know,
nature.
So when I studied psychology,yeah, there was a sharp contrast
between Now, we're not curiousabout people.
We see them as there'ssomething wrong with them that
we need to fix and we're gonnacome up with these are the
reasons that this is what weneed to do.
(06:11):
But it got me to where I neededto be with a license.
Like, the pat on the backsaying, now you can go help
people.
John (06:19):
There's two tracks in psychology.
Is it one's clinical and theother
Diane (06:23):
is Yeah.
There's one called counselingpsychology that they use in the
universities, counseling centers, that is all more strength
based.
But the clinical psychologists,I didn't know the difference I
But there I was with clinicalpsychology, which is all about
diagnosing you and finding outwhat's wrong with you.
(06:45):
I find myself distancing fromthat way of doing things and
seeing people.
John (06:52):
How did the how were you drawn to Shamanism?
What was the there's an initialintroduction.
How did that take place?
Diane (06:59):
Yeah.
That that was one of thoselittle windy twisty things that
happens in life where one thingleads to the next to the next.
So it's also very I find kindof a cool story for me.
For as I look back, I I wasearly on as a psychologist and
just happened to be going tovisit a family member who I had
(07:20):
triggered me to the familymember just was one of those
harsh critical people in my lifeand I was nervous all the way
there.
And my partner had been goingto a a therapist who does energy
psychology and he says, well,let's just try this little
energy psychology cology thingthat my therapist showed me.
And and so it was a littletapping tapping on acupressure
points.
And you say it was a littlemantra Even though I'm really
(07:42):
nervous about say in this familymember, I love and accept
myself anyway.
And I'm thinking this isridiculous.
I like, how is this gonna help?
This person's lawful to me, howis this but We get there, say
the night, we're on the way homethe next day.
I'm like, I think that familymember is much, much nicer.
And my partners know no change,but I perceived it differently.
(08:07):
There was some shift in me.
So I got really intrigued.
Maybe there's something to this.
So I started studying energy,psychology, took the classes,
through Association forComprehensive Energy Psychology,
ASU, so took their classes, andthen went to their conference
and at the conference.
I'm sitting in these workshopswith these licensed mental
(08:29):
health practitionersprofessionals, and they're
saying there's several of themsaid, and I'm a Shamanic
practitioner.
And I'm like, what?
Is that even possible?
Like, how do you what?
Because I'm thinking Shamanismback in my undergrad was the
indigenous peoples of the worldand it was like this whole way
(08:51):
of life and hear those
John (08:53):
Of course.
Diane (08:53):
Person who's yes.
Living in the city and waslicensed professional, but I
look up to I'm a Shimonicpractitioner too.
So I got really interested.
And at that same conference,I'm in a psychic, Then I asked
her, can you learn psychicskills?
Or is this something you'reborn with?
(09:14):
And she says, you can learn.
And I have a school to teachpeople.
And so, of course, since I gothome, I signed up for her class.
And that was in medicalintuition, which is really
developing the ability toperceive the energy world and
for medical institutionsspecifically about how the
(09:35):
energy world is having an effecton the body, physical body.
But Mhmm.
The the skills of perceivingthat, past life, origins,
childhood origins to thephysical.
And then I don't even rememberoh, I do remember.
So at that conference, I gotsuper excited about the energy
(09:57):
healing thing.
And so I got online and I'mjust I ordered I don't know how
many books.
And one of them was MichaelHarner's Capen Cosmos.
And in that book, he just justhe he tells a lot of the stories
, which is I I love stories.
I learn a lot from stories.
I'm reading this book.
I'm like, oh, this isfascinating.
(10:17):
This is interesting.
So of course, that I got on andthat I need to take a class in
Shamanism.
And there you go.
Then it was that class led tothe two week intensive that led
to the three year program thatled to all the different weekend
workshops that just and then Ijust stayed with it and then
learning from sender Ingermanand she Wesselman and then start
(10:41):
a study with Betsy Bergstromand she's currently my teacher's
spell after all these years andIt's just fun.
Mhmm.
John (10:49):
How many years were you in as a psychologist when this
took place?
Diane (10:54):
Let's see.
About five years?
I think what happened in thefive years was that I realized
the limitations of the toptherapy.
You really can't talk somebodyout of their emotions.
You can't talk them out oftheir experience.
And sometimes talking aboutthings really stirs you up a
(11:16):
little more.
You feel worse.
A lot of people would feelworse at the end of a session
instead of better.
So even in those five years, Iwas already looking into
alternative methods like somaticbased therapies.
Mhmm.
Snag experiencing bioenergetics.
And I had a therapist who is abio energetics therapist and on
(11:36):
my personal development.
It was already going toretreats where they did
psychodrama, sanitization, arttherapy, and a lot of body based
therapies that we're helpingand helping way more than just
talking about things.
So I was ready for the messagewhen it came to me.
But there really is a thingcalled energy psychology.
(11:58):
There really is a thing you canget trained in Shamanic healing
and integrates.
That it really it ended upreally appealing to me.
John (12:09):
What I found from a schematic perspective is that
people with indeed griefexperience soul fragmentation
contributes to a loss of theirown energy or how do you as a
therapist before you got intoShamanism?
Would you have Notice that theperson had a loss of energy.
Diane (12:27):
Yeah, grief.
From a purely psychologicalperspective, my training and how
to help people with grief wasvery minimal.
I almost feel like there's anavoidance of it because it can
be so heavy and it can be sodifficult to overcome.
(12:49):
And Mhmm.
I I don't know if this is kindof your question, but this is
where my mind is taking me isfrom the Shamanic perspective,
when I encounter people withdeep grease, I almost always am
seeing ancestral pattern.
Of so many of our ancestorsthat just had to carry on when
(13:10):
there was a loss or a trauma, adifficult thing that they just
had to carry on and they didn'tor didn't know how or didn't
have time or the energy.
So we're carrying all of ourancestors grief as well, then
our own lived experience, say,for example, my parents each,
(13:31):
lost a parent when they wereyoung.
Mhmm.
And nobody helped them withthat grief.
So then when I had experiencesthat were, you know, devastating
or sad, they couldn't help me.
So the grief is so deep.
So then if you're justpsychologically speaking of the
client sitting in front of meand the tools are like, well,
(13:52):
get them talking about it andhave them share some experiences
.
Like, that opens the field, butit's massive.
And without Mhmm.
An energetic way and aspiritual Shamanic way of
helping people relieve theheavier burden of the ancestral?
It's just heavy.
John (14:12):
Did you have any pushback from your colleagues who were
just strictly psychologists?
Diane (14:18):
And then now in the energy world and in the Shamanic
world for over ten years andnot very many of my colleagues
know because I just don't I justdon't feel like Mhmm.
I wanna get into it with themor if I perceive that they might
be opposed to it or judgmentalof it.
I just don't bother tellingthem.
(14:40):
And then I find differentlanguage when they say, how
would you work with this kind ofperson?
I use very general terms.
Most people are okay with theidea of energy.
So I'll just use energy.
Oh, there's some energy thatmaybe they inherited.
Oh, okay.
We're good with that.
But if I say, your grandfatheris still with you, they're not
(15:00):
good with that, so I don't sayit.
John (15:02):
Now that you're experienced, traumatic, healer,
or so called, how would youclassify the two roles coming
together?
That might be helpful for me.
Diane (15:11):
Oh, I would say that I'm in licensed clinical psychology
and I do a lot of energy healingalong with that.
And then recently, I'veactually had to split and have a
separate business that is myenergy healing business.
And then with some people, Imight say that I am a Shamanic
practitioner.
But with most people, I'll justsay energy healing.
John (15:36):
What reaction do you get from a first time client?
If they come into seeing you asa psychologist, you roll them
over into what when you assessthem, you realize there there's
a lot more work I can do if Iput my Shamanic hat on.
Is that like an approach thatyou would take?
Diane (15:55):
Yeah.
That's I I do feel into wouldthey be open to me talking about
spirituality or energy.
And if I get a yes, then Iintroduce it in a way that's
appropriate for them.
Mhmm.
So having gone to the Both myundergrad and my graduate school
were in Christian universitiesand my graduate school.
(16:15):
We actually had classes in howto integrate their spirituality.
So actual practice and lots ofconversation in assessing a
person's spirituality andbringing that in as a resource.
Or for some people who havebeen harmed or had negative
experiences in their religion,then how to help them heal from
(16:38):
that and find a positive kind ofform of spirituality if they're
open to that.
But it's really all aboutsensing into where's the client?
Where's their comfort level?
And what language can I use?
And I did I've made a fewmistakes over the years where
keeping my language very general.
Well, it looks like there mightbe some energy that doesn't
(16:59):
belong.
Would that make sense to youthat you might have absorbed
something from a parent or afamily remember that we wanna
let go of and people are usuallygood with that.
And that might go on for awhile.
And then with one client, Iactually end up using the word
spirit helpers and, oh, that wasit.
They were done.
It was such triggering word.
(17:20):
From their religious backgroundthat was there's evil spirits.
And so just that word wastriggering.
And I find that's happened justa couple times where just a
certain word or a certain labelis too triggering.
So I think you definitely haveto sense them to, like, where
are they at?
Where's their comfort?
John (17:40):
What about skepticism about your clients?
Are most people agreeable orcurious?
Diane (17:45):
Most people are agreeable and curious.
Yeah.
It's a rare person who comesfor help.
Who is that closed?
So there's plenty of closedpeople, plenty of skeptical
people, but they're notgenerally the people who come
for help.
Does that make sense?
There's something in the I needhelp process that is saying I'm
(18:10):
at my end and something outsideof myself might be helpful.
And I've also recently gottenmuch, much better If I get an
inquiry, hey, can you help me?
I need a therapist that ofdoing a little divination
journey to see Is this personcompatible with the way I work?
(18:31):
Will this be a good experiencefor myself and this potential
client?
And I sometimes get to knowthat they wouldn't be open.
And then if I try to work withsomebody who's not open, to
these really beautiful methodsthat I have found to be so
helpful, it's not a good fit.
I'm gonna be frustrated.
(18:51):
They're they're not gonna I'm agood therapist even if I don't
do energy work, but myfrustration is gonna get in the
way.
So I just say, hey, I'm not thebest therapist for you and I
try somebody else.
John (19:03):
Yeah, people really do need to want to be healed.
What about culturalappropriation?
If you get people curious aboutthat, that you don't look like
your first nations in the hearthe word shaman or those kind of
discussions?
Diane (19:18):
Yeah.
And that's a it's such a greatdiscussion and it's out there
amongst the mental healthprofessionals who are also
Shamanic practitioners.
And many people no longer usethe word shaman because it is a
cultural specific word comingfrom the Tungus tribe in Siberia
.
Mhmm.
So they'll call themselvesanimus practitioners, which is a
(19:39):
more general anthropologicalterm.
So that would be one way ofgoing about it.
The cultural appropriation isan attitude.
It's a mindset.
So if I go study with someindigenous people and then I
just take those and I claim themas my or if they perceive me as
(20:01):
, hey, you're a representativeof that group of people long ago
or is continuing to happen thathave destroyed our way of life,
taken our lands, and now you'regonna come do it again.
That's a that's an attitudethat I'm coming in there and
taking.
But if I'm invited to studywith a group and they perceive
(20:23):
me as somebody that will berespectful in acknowledging that
this is where I learned, andthese are the elders of the
tribe.
That goes a long way towardsminimizing that cultural
preparation part of it.
But the second part of itreally is that I find myself
drawn towards Shamanic practicesthat are of my people.
(20:47):
So Celtic, where my mother'sfamily came from for forever is
the Celtic druidic way, and Ifind this all drawn to that, and
it it is my people.
These are my I'm notappropriating.
This is where my people comefrom.
And from my father's side, theGermanic Norse.
So I've been studying the Norseway of doing things, Ukrainian.
(21:08):
And then I also have past liveswhere I was in the isis got
isis from Egypt.
Many pest lives there.
So as I study Egyptian, thatfeels compatible and I can feel
good about that because I haveassociations.
Me, this person or the soul,has these associations.
(21:29):
Yeah.
John (21:30):
Can you speak to to some examples of how people have
changed or had moved forwardfrom their troubles?
Diane (21:39):
Yeah.
So one one example thatcustomize is a woman who lost
her daughter as an adult or theythirty years old in a foreign
country, and there's somemysterious, never really found
out why and how and all thestory.
So three years later, she comesto me and just this this grief
(22:01):
and anguish and so manyquestions.
And if I were just apsychologist, I would have
really approached it from tellme all about it and what have
you done so far?
Is there anything that helpsand do more of that?
There's some basic things likeself care.
Which when the body is healthy,then you can tolerate the
feelings more.
But from a Shamanic or energyperspective, if I could tune
(22:25):
into her daughter and actuallyfacilitate a conversation.
And so we did that, checked in,how's her daughter doing?
What's going on?
What Is there something thatshe wants my client to know
about that experience of herdeath or or does she want her
mother to be stuck in the grief?
Would she like her mother to tofigure a way to resolve it?
(22:50):
So the client invited herhusband as well and and so we
facilitated a coupleconversations with her daughter.
And it ends up helping reallyrelieve some of the what felt
stuck.
The stuckness of thequestioning and the grief.
Like, you know, most peoplewhen they lose lose a child,
that that shouldn't havehappened.
When that's a which feels likeit shouldn't.
(23:12):
This is Mhmm.
Unforeseen and devastating.
John (23:16):
I can't imagine what they would go through with that when
putting myself get her shoes.
What was her reaction when yousuggested that?
Diane (23:23):
I knew she was open to her because she said she'd spoke
to a medium.
Which in this case, the mediumwho works specifically to have
conversations with those who'vepassed them.
So I knew she was open to thatsort of thing.
And so her reaction was like,yes, please.
If you can talk to my talk, itwould be great.
Yeah.
John (23:45):
Do you have any other transform mission stories that
you can share?
Diane (23:49):
Yeah.
But kind of another I mean, Ihave black and lots.
But one in particular comes tomind is this client came to me.
She's a young woman, somewherein her thirties.
And
John (24:00):
Mhmm.
Diane (24:01):
But she had some mysterious physical ailments
that doctors medical people canreally find a good origin for a
reason for and has somedepression and some anxiety.
So these are generally thingsthat people come to therapy
before.
And I perceived that she wasopen to more energy.
So we were just we were doingbasic energy kinds of things.
(24:24):
Visualized being under awaterfall of light and that kind
of washed away some of theanxiety or Bay is your nervous
system.
And these are effective.
But when we were doing them, Icould perceive that her
grandmother was with her.
And I threw out the idea of,hey, do you ever feel like
there's somebody with him and orthat there's some other energy
(24:48):
or presence with you?
Is it possible that yourgrandmother might have just not
moved on?
I don't know.
It's interesting because My momwas pregnant with me when my
grandmother died.
Oh, that's really interesting.
So as I'm checking in with thespirit of her grandma, I think
her grandma's, yeah, I stayed.
I needed to stay and help.
(25:08):
And so I said, well, what if wehad a conversation with her and
she said, well, my mom wouldwant to be here for this.
So she invited her mom, so wedid a session.
And where we really talked withgrandma and let her know, and
they said things, the mom saidthings to grandma that really
(25:29):
she didn't get to say?
Because grandma had died moreof a suddenly kind of thing, but
grandma was able to let themknow.
I knew you needed help.
You were pregnant.
And I knew you needed help, soI wanted to stay and help.
And then at that point,sometimes the spirit doesn't
know how to move on if itbecomes time.
Because now this daughter wasin her thirties and mom didn't
(25:53):
need help raising the child isin adults.
So there was this reallybeautiful saying thank you so
much and it might be great foryou now to go to your rest and
go and take care of some thingsthat you need take care of as a
soul and so that I'm proud ofthat is both the people who are
(26:13):
soul in their bodies, thedaughter and the mother.
Felt so much relief and thatthey felt so much lighter and
the physical symptoms began toremit.
John (26:23):
Now that you've been a psychologist and a a a shaman,
how has your own life changed?
Diane (26:31):
Yeah, tremendously.
It when I think about I feellike everything that I've
pursuit, every workshop I'vetaken, every training I've
pursued, every teacher that I'velearned from has been for my
own self first.
And it's very much a Buddhistconcept of as we heal, it makes
(26:54):
it easier for others around usto heal.
So I'm doing all of this for myown self and then I have on the
side gun.
Oh, this would be helpful formy clients too.
So I still meet with my mentor.
Doris Samuelson.
She's a she's on a practitionerup in the Seattle area and a
colleague of Betsy Berkstrom,who's still my teacher.
(27:15):
So I was meeting with BetsyBergstrom once a week for a good
long time to do personaltransformation work, deep
possession, personal unraveling,energy clearing, ancestral
healing, all of that.
And every time I go through apersonal session for myself, I
am now more able to help otherclients that are suffering in in
(27:37):
similar ways.
So it just is it's is it's thebest possible scenario, I get
healed, and then I can helpothers heal in the same way.
John (27:46):
For your colleagues who are unaware what would you say
to to them should Shamanism comeup?
Why would you to handle thatexpressing what you've done and
how you merged your practicewith the two and suggest that it
might be something for them orwould you?
Diane (28:06):
Yeah.
It's Yeah.
No, that's a great question.
The universe keeps bringing meover the last few years keeps
bringing me therapists like thatwho are ready and open.
To expanding their practiceinto these realms Mhmm.
Into the non ordinary realms.
And to them, I just go rightinto I'm still very free to tell
(28:26):
them, like, how much fun I'mhaving and how how exciting it
is and how helpful thesepractices are And I have, like,
I have a consultation groupright now where I have two
there's two other therapiststhat we get together and we talk
about how we blend our therapywith I'm the only one who's a
Shamanic practitioner.
The other two are more justenergy psychology.
(28:48):
So we talk about it.
I have a few clients who aretherapists, and I'm introducing
them to these practices viatheir own personal growth and
transformation.
And in that way, it's just easybecause I just I just it it's I
have come to such a comfortlevel, but I just know these
work And I've read the research,which there's tons of it,
(29:10):
there's tons of these reallysmart research y people who have
proven that this stuff worksand that it's real.
There's a hundred and fiftyyears of research in the sci
phenomenon.
And then to the Clarivoyans,Clarivaudience, and remote
viewing these kind of things,speak with a dearly departed So
(29:32):
I feel very comfortable becauseI haven't read the research and
I keep looking at the newresearch.
If I come across though.
Let like, your scenario of himat a party, and he's a therapist
, and I don't come out and say,oh, you know, I do this cool
stuff.
But let's say that maybesomebody brings up Shamanism or
energy healing.
(29:52):
I what I could I don't knowthat I've done this, but this is
what I would like to be able todo and that would be to say
it's so much fun.
And it's so much easier.
I'm helping my clients in suchan easier way because as soon as
you invite in benevolent,angelic beings, compassion,
(30:17):
helping spirits, the ancestralhealing spirit for the client,
everything gets easier.
There's just a lightening andsoftening and smoothing out of
everything.
Thing and then opening for theclient to start seeing more of
the truth of what's going on.
So that's gonna be my new wayof approaching it when I go to a
(30:39):
party and I'm asked thatquestion.
John (30:40):
Yeah.
I couldn't think of adescription.
So what do you think the futureof psychology is, do you think
that they it will eventuallymorph into more of a energy,
schmatic, or feeling?
Diane (30:54):
Yeah.
There's absolutely a movementboth in the medical profession
towards integrating, let's say,eastern traditional Chinese
medicine or AYAveda into ourWestern medical model.
So there's already a lot ofthat, but there's also the
hardening of the side that wantsto just stay with the purely
(31:14):
material.
That's in the medical, but thenin the psychological, same
thing seems to be happening thatthere's so much more opening
for many mental healthpractitioners.
To go towards alternative,energetic, spiritual kinds of
things, which is reallybeautiful.
And I so I think that's gonnahappen more and more and there's
(31:36):
a hardening up the, I don'tknow, other side, but they feel
like they're on the other side.
I don't see them on the otherside, but that's how they they
look at us with such skepticism.
The president, I don't know ifhe's the current president a
couple of years ago, presidentof American psychological
association, came out with thoseenergy psychology people need
(31:58):
to lose their licenses, and it'smy job to to strip their
licenses from them becausethey're doing voodoo or whatever
.
That's not the word to use, butit was that sentiment.
They're outside their scope ofpractice or they're doing
unethical things.
And so I do feel like there'sthat kind of division.
(32:19):
For any licensed professional,it's if you wanna keep your
license, that you have to goabout it in ways that you are
ethical, that you that you haveinformed consent, that you're
describing to the client, thisis what you might expect.
These are the limitations ofwhat we're doing here really
(32:45):
making sure that they areagreeable to it, that they know
what's happening, and thatthey're agreeable to it.
And, you know, what I'm hopefulfor is that people who are
courageous like myself that willjust continue to do what your
soul is safe is the right thingfor you.
Not be in the fear of, oh, no.
(33:06):
I'll lose my license or oh, no.
My family members think I'm inthe all cult and satanic and
deemer I actually had a familymember say that I'm somewhere
messing with the devil, which isinteresting.
John (33:18):
I think the idea of the classical approach to mental
health, the psychologists, andthe sociologist, the
psychotherapists, I do like theidea that there's structure in a
sense of working with clientswhile having a scope of practice
.
That there's a set of ethics tosupport a practitioner in the
(33:39):
client?
Diane (33:40):
Let's say you just you come from the you come to the
Shamanic Practitioning or energyhealing just directly that way.
And there's not that muchtraining in how to do it
ethically, how to do theinformed consent, issues of
money, issues of reallyunderstanding what's the client
expectation and educating them,because a lot of people when
(34:04):
they're desperate and they'regoing just to a Shamanic
practitioner, let's say, they'redesperate for relief, and they
may look to that person asrescue me and not realize that
there's things they also have todo.
Towards their own healing Mhmm.
And if the fashion likepractitioner isn't careful, they
(34:25):
can get into and if they getinto trouble, that's not quite
the right word.
But where clients is reallyangry or disappointed, where
spent a lot of money and didn'tget relief.
And some of that is This iscoming from now the clinical
psychology.
There are people that truly dohave neurological difficulty 30s
(34:45):
, schizophrenia, or bipolar,autism, or physical issues like
what we find is they'rediscovering that the microbiome,
when that is totally destroyedand off, it creates bipolar like
symptoms.
And people appear very crazy.
And then they can feel likethey're demon possessed, then
(35:06):
they go to a Shamanicpractitioner, and and if the
Shamanic attrition doesn't askthe right questions about
medical health, then they couldtreat the this overshadowing
aspect, but really missing outon this person needs a lot of
medical attention too.
And they need a lot of selfcare too.
John (35:28):
How do you receive your enumeration for your services?
And I'm just thinking of,Patricia, who's tied to
insurance companies that accepther kind of practice.
I'm not talking our traumaticpractice, but just a
psychotherapy.
And and, of course, their scopeof practice from the insurance
standpoint is that they're notgonna pay for someone for coming
(35:48):
into chemanica therapy.
So what have you found the bethe best approach?
You're working with the foot oneach side?
Diane (35:59):
Best approach I've come to, and this is I've consulted
with there's a woman in MitchMurphy that that could be in the
the referral Yeah.
List that She's a doctor injurisprudence, so she's a lawyer
and she's a doctor in energymedicine and she offers that
part of her business is to helppeople with this kind of thing
(36:19):
that if myself and others, thereare certain clients that if
you're with an insurance panel,you have to do the empirically
validated treatment, cognitivebehavioral therapy, that kind of
thing.
And they won't pay for and theyget pretty upset if they found
out that you were doing energyhealing, you know.
And then for I don't takeinsurance.
(36:41):
I don't have that shoe becauseI stopped taking insurance
because I had that issue.
So now it's just cash pay.
I could do whatever I want, soto speak.
But you still have to operatewithin your scope of practice.
Meaning, I can't just go take aweekend workshop in Shamanism
and start doing Shamanicpractice with the clients that's
not ethical.
But I did my due diligence.
I did my years of training, andthen I'm offering it.
(37:04):
But I also find that I'm I'vedecided that I'm actually
splitting my business, so I havea psychotherapy business with
certain clients, and then I havea Shamanic practice or energy
healing practice that's separate.
And especially because afterthe pandemic, it really opened
our ability to use Zoom andpeople are more comfortable
using Zoom instead of coming inperson.
(37:25):
So I have clients in otherstates that I'm not licensed in
those states, so I cannot dopsychotherapy legally and
ethically.
So I can only do energy healing, Shamanic practice there, or
people call spiritual coachingin in with clients from the
other state.
So that's kind of one way to tonavigate that is doing two
(37:48):
different businesses separateclients.
John (37:51):
Well, well, That sounds like a good place to end up
before I start getting billed.
Diane (37:57):
Oh, I
John (37:59):
wanna thank you so much.
Okay.
And I learned actually, therewas a few things that I learned
at the ULC where it getsamplified in the after the
editing and that but there was afew things there that I was
gonna ask you, do you doShamanic work with clients
animals?
Diane (38:15):
Not done it with clients animals.
I I do energy healing on my ownanimals, and I have done animal
communication.
A little bit with clientsandals, but I don't feel like
they wanna build for thatbecause I'm not and not yet to
the level that I would like tobe at in order to advertise
(38:36):
myself as a animal communicatoror animal a shealer for for
their animals.
But I love working with animals, obviously.
And they'll just soak up thehealing.
Yeah.
John (38:48):
I love plants.
And and for me, thecommunicating with them is my
feeling and definitely Yeah.
Thoughts, platforms.
And I was wondering, would thatbe similar to animals?
I've never worked with animals.
That's why I'm I'm just kindacurious as to how you approach
your own.
Diane (39:05):
Yeah.
You know, it's I find it formyself, I find it easier to
communicate with animals thanwith the plants because with the
plants, I do just get moregeneral sense of feeling Are
they thirsty?
Are they too hot?
But animals, they'll have awhole conversation.
They're just talking.
They've been around humansenough that they're just like,
they'll just go in to what'sgoing on with them and what they
(39:26):
want and what they don't likeand they all have their own
individual personalities.
They most of it some animalshave been traumatized.
I found that they don't wannatalk because they don't trust.
But it's fun.
Yeah.
Our animals love us so much,and and I've found over the
years doing this work.
(39:46):
That I will often encounter ananimal still in their client
synergy field, that the animal,its body, died, it wanted to say
, but couldn't but spirit staysin order to continue to comfort.
The human, they're just the sunand the animals, they just love
us so much.
They're willing to do that.
John (40:07):
Mhmm.
Diane (40:08):
This is fine.
Yeah.
This is a great conversation.
I'm so glad that you invited me.
It's just wonderful.
Chat with you.
John (40:15):
Okay.
Will you stay well and we'llcatch up again?
Diane (40:17):
Yes, please.
Don't get strange.
Hello, Diane.
How are you doing today?
Diane (00:03):
I'm doing great.
I'm really happy to be here.
So
John (00:06):
Well, great
Diane (00:07):
to Yeah.
It's great to see you and talkwith you and this is a topic
that's of of real interest forme.
So I'm I'm really excited tohave this conversation.
John (00:18):
Okay.
So where I wanna go, is is Iwant to know about three things:
horses, psychology, andShamanism.
What is the common thread there?
Diane (00:32):
A common thread would be in the service of helping people
, helping people in the way thatthey need to be helped in the
moment that they arrive in thepasture or in my office or on my
Zoom meeting.
And the so the really thecommon thread is we make sense
of what's going on and how do weunravel or reconnect with parts
(00:56):
of ourselves or beings that canhelp support us and the horses
help with that.
I I truly believe that horsesare here as master teachers to
help us be better versions ofourselves.
John (01:10):
Alright.
When you're younger, were youin the horses?
Diane (01:13):
When I was young, they saved my life.
Really.
They saved my life on a numberof of periods of my life when
things were very difficult in mywhole And the first spirit
being that ever came to mebefore I even knew that was a
thing, was a horse.
And I distinctly remembered, isthere a carpooling back from
(01:36):
swim team with a dot in thecountry, so it's long drive.
And I would look out the windowand I'd see this horse.
There was a spirit of horserunning alongside the car
dumping the fence.
And had a bridle and a saddlehorn.
And I remember thinking, well,that horse shouldn't have a
bridle and a saddle horn.
It should just free and I wouldtry to remove the bridal and
(01:59):
saddle and it would reappear.
And I would remove it and Ireappear and it would took years
later when I started to study ashamanism and understood
interactive spirit beings.
That was a spirit horse and Itwas an invitation to come be
with the horse, come ride thehorse.
And, anyway, so a horse was thefirst helping spirit that ever
(02:20):
came to me.
And then there were the factualphysical real horses and
ordinary reality.
When things were difficult inmy home as a child, I would just
go out and be in the pasturewith the horse just standing
there with them or walking withthem through the pasture.
John (02:37):
Mhmm.
Can you share just a little bitmore how you're experiencing
your life at that early age?
Diane (02:42):
Yeah.
Youngest of five.
Children.
And and my mother wasoverwhelmed, and my father
worked.
And I think it's alsoAsperger's, so he was not
available.
Emotionally.
So a lot of I very much wentinward and tried to look for
safe and so nature was my safetyplace.
(03:04):
Inside the home, I feltuncomfortable or made fun of her
.
Criticized judgment.
So going out and being innature was where I felt safe and
being with the horses, or mycat, or my dog, was where I felt
safe.
And so for me, years later,when I encountered Shamanism, it
(03:24):
that was a natural fit becauseit's a very nature based
practice?
John (03:29):
The horses, did they have a sense of the personal distress
that you're experiencing?
Diane (03:36):
I assumed so I was a child.
I don't think I I don't I knowI didn't pay any attention to
that.
I just knew I felt better whenI was with the horse.
And that followed all the waythrough to high school and I was
really depressed.
Like, I was suicidal in highschool because and a girl that I
knew said, oh, I have a friendwho has a horse that needs to be
(03:57):
ridden.
So I would just everyday afterschool go ride this horse, bare
back, out into the Bureau ofLand Management.
And, yeah, I looked back onthat.
Like, I was so depressed Ithink half the time I was crying
while riding the horse.
So I know the horse felt what Iwas feeling because they're
highly telepathic.
They absolutely know what we'refeeling.
(04:18):
And yet the horse was willing.
These horses are willing.
They would they're free to comeand go and they stayed right
there with me.
So I have to believe they wereoffering themselves as in
service and as help and assupport.
John (04:35):
And like your horse spirit .
Diane (04:37):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly.
John (04:40):
What made you go into psychology?
Diane (04:43):
Yeah.
So that's an interesting storyabout that.
Because when I was an undergrad, I was at a Christian school
and I wanted nothing to do withpsychology.
I didn't interest me at all.
I studied culture and pathology, and that was fascinating.
So I was studying people withcuriosity.
That's the distinction I feelbetween psychology and
(05:06):
anthropology is TheAnthropologie was curious.
How are these people living?
Oh, that tribe over there, howdo they do things?
And I unloved that.
And I and we studied Shamanism,not from a we're gonna become
Shamanic, but rather just fromthe curiosity of, oh, there's
all these different indigenousways of interacting with the
(05:27):
world from that spirit based,nature based way.
It was years later that to gointo graduate school, I just
needed to find a way to helppeople, so I needed a
professional degree.
And so becoming a therapist waskind of a natural fit for me
after I'd been a wildernessguide taking troubled kids out
(05:50):
on these wilderness tracks andreally not knowing how to
counsel, but I knew how to takethem out and enjoy you know,
nature.
So when I studied psychology,yeah, there was a sharp contrast
between Now, we're not curiousabout people.
We see them as there'ssomething wrong with them that
we need to fix and we're gonnacome up with these are the
reasons that this is what weneed to do.
(06:11):
But it got me to where I neededto be with a license.
Like, the pat on the backsaying, now you can go help
people.
John (06:19):
There's two tracks in psychology.
Is it one's clinical and theother
Diane (06:23):
is Yeah.
There's one called counselingpsychology that they use in the
universities, counseling centers, that is all more strength
based.
But the clinical psychologists,I didn't know the difference I
But there I was with clinicalpsychology, which is all about
diagnosing you and finding outwhat's wrong with you.
(06:45):
I find myself distancing fromthat way of doing things and
seeing people.
John (06:52):
How did the how were you drawn to Shamanism?
What was the there's an initialintroduction.
How did that take place?
Diane (06:59):
Yeah.
That that was one of thoselittle windy twisty things that
happens in life where one thingleads to the next to the next.
So it's also very I find kindof a cool story for me.
For as I look back, I I wasearly on as a psychologist and
just happened to be going tovisit a family member who I had
(07:20):
triggered me to the familymember just was one of those
harsh critical people in my lifeand I was nervous all the way
there.
And my partner had been goingto a a therapist who does energy
psychology and he says, well,let's just try this little
energy psychology cology thingthat my therapist showed me.
And and so it was a littletapping tapping on acupressure
points.
And you say it was a littlemantra Even though I'm really
(07:42):
nervous about say in this familymember, I love and accept
myself anyway.
And I'm thinking this isridiculous.
I like, how is this gonna help?
This person's lawful to me, howis this but We get there, say
the night, we're on the way homethe next day.
I'm like, I think that familymember is much, much nicer.
And my partners know no change,but I perceived it differently.
(08:07):
There was some shift in me.
So I got really intrigued.
Maybe there's something to this.
So I started studying energy,psychology, took the classes,
through Association forComprehensive Energy Psychology,
ASU, so took their classes, andthen went to their conference
and at the conference.
I'm sitting in these workshopswith these licensed mental
(08:29):
health practitionersprofessionals, and they're
saying there's several of themsaid, and I'm a Shamanic
practitioner.
And I'm like, what?
Is that even possible?
Like, how do you what?
Because I'm thinking Shamanismback in my undergrad was the
indigenous peoples of the worldand it was like this whole way
(08:51):
of life and hear those
John (08:53):
Of course.
Diane (08:53):
Person who's yes.
Living in the city and waslicensed professional, but I
look up to I'm a Shimonicpractitioner too.
So I got really interested.
And at that same conference,I'm in a psychic, Then I asked
her, can you learn psychicskills?
Or is this something you'reborn with?
(09:14):
And she says, you can learn.
And I have a school to teachpeople.
And so, of course, since I gothome, I signed up for her class.
And that was in medicalintuition, which is really
developing the ability toperceive the energy world and
for medical institutionsspecifically about how the
(09:35):
energy world is having an effecton the body, physical body.
But Mhmm.
The the skills of perceivingthat, past life, origins,
childhood origins to thephysical.
And then I don't even rememberoh, I do remember.
So at that conference, I gotsuper excited about the energy
(09:57):
healing thing.
And so I got online and I'mjust I ordered I don't know how
many books.
And one of them was MichaelHarner's Capen Cosmos.
And in that book, he just justhe he tells a lot of the stories
, which is I I love stories.
I learn a lot from stories.
I'm reading this book.
I'm like, oh, this isfascinating.
(10:17):
This is interesting.
So of course, that I got on andthat I need to take a class in
Shamanism.
And there you go.
Then it was that class led tothe two week intensive that led
to the three year program thatled to all the different weekend
workshops that just and then Ijust stayed with it and then
learning from sender Ingermanand she Wesselman and then start
(10:41):
a study with Betsy Bergstromand she's currently my teacher's
spell after all these years andIt's just fun.
Mhmm.
John (10:49):
How many years were you in as a psychologist when this
took place?
Diane (10:54):
Let's see.
About five years?
I think what happened in thefive years was that I realized
the limitations of the toptherapy.
You really can't talk somebodyout of their emotions.
You can't talk them out oftheir experience.
And sometimes talking aboutthings really stirs you up a
(11:16):
little more.
You feel worse.
A lot of people would feelworse at the end of a session
instead of better.
So even in those five years, Iwas already looking into
alternative methods like somaticbased therapies.
Mhmm.
Snag experiencing bioenergetics.
And I had a therapist who is abio energetics therapist and on
(11:36):
my personal development.
It was already going toretreats where they did
psychodrama, sanitization, arttherapy, and a lot of body based
therapies that we're helpingand helping way more than just
talking about things.
So I was ready for the messagewhen it came to me.
But there really is a thingcalled energy psychology.
(11:58):
There really is a thing you canget trained in Shamanic healing
and integrates.
That it really it ended upreally appealing to me.
John (12:09):
What I found from a schematic perspective is that
people with indeed griefexperience soul fragmentation
contributes to a loss of theirown energy or how do you as a
therapist before you got intoShamanism?
Would you have Notice that theperson had a loss of energy.
Diane (12:27):
Yeah, grief.
From a purely psychologicalperspective, my training and how
to help people with grief wasvery minimal.
I almost feel like there's anavoidance of it because it can
be so heavy and it can be sodifficult to overcome.
(12:49):
And Mhmm.
I I don't know if this is kindof your question, but this is
where my mind is taking me isfrom the Shamanic perspective,
when I encounter people withdeep grease, I almost always am
seeing ancestral pattern.
Of so many of our ancestorsthat just had to carry on when
(13:10):
there was a loss or a trauma, adifficult thing that they just
had to carry on and they didn'tor didn't know how or didn't
have time or the energy.
So we're carrying all of ourancestors grief as well, then
our own lived experience, say,for example, my parents each,
(13:31):
lost a parent when they wereyoung.
Mhmm.
And nobody helped them withthat grief.
So then when I had experiencesthat were, you know, devastating
or sad, they couldn't help me.
So the grief is so deep.
So then if you're justpsychologically speaking of the
client sitting in front of meand the tools are like, well,
(13:52):
get them talking about it andhave them share some experiences
.
Like, that opens the field, butit's massive.
And without Mhmm.
An energetic way and aspiritual Shamanic way of
helping people relieve theheavier burden of the ancestral?
It's just heavy.
John (14:12):
Did you have any pushback from your colleagues who were
just strictly psychologists?
Diane (14:18):
And then now in the energy world and in the Shamanic
world for over ten years andnot very many of my colleagues
know because I just don't I justdon't feel like Mhmm.
I wanna get into it with themor if I perceive that they might
be opposed to it or judgmentalof it.
I just don't bother tellingthem.
(14:40):
And then I find differentlanguage when they say, how
would you work with this kind ofperson?
I use very general terms.
Most people are okay with theidea of energy.
So I'll just use energy.
Oh, there's some energy thatmaybe they inherited.
Oh, okay.
We're good with that.
But if I say, your grandfatheris still with you, they're not
(15:00):
good with that, so I don't sayit.
John (15:02):
Now that you're experienced, traumatic, healer,
or so called, how would youclassify the two roles coming
together?
That might be helpful for me.
Diane (15:11):
Oh, I would say that I'm in licensed clinical psychology
and I do a lot of energy healingalong with that.
And then recently, I'veactually had to split and have a
separate business that is myenergy healing business.
And then with some people, Imight say that I am a Shamanic
practitioner.
But with most people, I'll justsay energy healing.
John (15:36):
What reaction do you get from a first time client?
If they come into seeing you asa psychologist, you roll them
over into what when you assessthem, you realize there there's
a lot more work I can do if Iput my Shamanic hat on.
Is that like an approach thatyou would take?
Diane (15:55):
Yeah.
That's I I do feel into wouldthey be open to me talking about
spirituality or energy.
And if I get a yes, then Iintroduce it in a way that's
appropriate for them.
Mhmm.
So having gone to the Both myundergrad and my graduate school
were in Christian universitiesand my graduate school.
(16:15):
We actually had classes in howto integrate their spirituality.
So actual practice and lots ofconversation in assessing a
person's spirituality andbringing that in as a resource.
Or for some people who havebeen harmed or had negative
experiences in their religion,then how to help them heal from
(16:38):
that and find a positive kind ofform of spirituality if they're
open to that.
But it's really all aboutsensing into where's the client?
Where's their comfort level?
And what language can I use?
And I did I've made a fewmistakes over the years where
keeping my language very general.
Well, it looks like there mightbe some energy that doesn't
(16:59):
belong.
Would that make sense to youthat you might have absorbed
something from a parent or afamily remember that we wanna
let go of and people are usuallygood with that.
And that might go on for awhile.
And then with one client, Iactually end up using the word
spirit helpers and, oh, that wasit.
They were done.
It was such triggering word.
(17:20):
From their religious backgroundthat was there's evil spirits.
And so just that word wastriggering.
And I find that's happened justa couple times where just a
certain word or a certain labelis too triggering.
So I think you definitely haveto sense them to, like, where
are they at?
Where's their comfort?
John (17:40):
What about skepticism about your clients?
Are most people agreeable orcurious?
Diane (17:45):
Most people are agreeable and curious.
Yeah.
It's a rare person who comesfor help.
Who is that closed?
So there's plenty of closedpeople, plenty of skeptical
people, but they're notgenerally the people who come
for help.
Does that make sense?
There's something in the I needhelp process that is saying I'm
(18:10):
at my end and something outsideof myself might be helpful.
And I've also recently gottenmuch, much better If I get an
inquiry, hey, can you help me?
I need a therapist that ofdoing a little divination
journey to see Is this personcompatible with the way I work?
(18:31):
Will this be a good experiencefor myself and this potential
client?
And I sometimes get to knowthat they wouldn't be open.
And then if I try to work withsomebody who's not open, to
these really beautiful methodsthat I have found to be so
helpful, it's not a good fit.
I'm gonna be frustrated.
(18:51):
They're they're not gonna I'm agood therapist even if I don't
do energy work, but myfrustration is gonna get in the
way.
So I just say, hey, I'm not thebest therapist for you and I
try somebody else.
John (19:03):
Yeah, people really do need to want to be healed.
What about culturalappropriation?
If you get people curious aboutthat, that you don't look like
your first nations in the hearthe word shaman or those kind of
discussions?
Diane (19:18):
Yeah.
And that's a it's such a greatdiscussion and it's out there
amongst the mental healthprofessionals who are also
Shamanic practitioners.
And many people no longer usethe word shaman because it is a
cultural specific word comingfrom the Tungus tribe in Siberia
.
Mhmm.
So they'll call themselvesanimus practitioners, which is a
(19:39):
more general anthropologicalterm.
So that would be one way ofgoing about it.
The cultural appropriation isan attitude.
It's a mindset.
So if I go study with someindigenous people and then I
just take those and I claim themas my or if they perceive me as
(20:01):
, hey, you're a representativeof that group of people long ago
or is continuing to happen thathave destroyed our way of life,
taken our lands, and now you'regonna come do it again.
That's a that's an attitudethat I'm coming in there and
taking.
But if I'm invited to studywith a group and they perceive
(20:23):
me as somebody that will berespectful in acknowledging that
this is where I learned, andthese are the elders of the
tribe.
That goes a long way towardsminimizing that cultural
preparation part of it.
But the second part of itreally is that I find myself
drawn towards Shamanic practicesthat are of my people.
(20:47):
So Celtic, where my mother'sfamily came from for forever is
the Celtic druidic way, and Ifind this all drawn to that, and
it it is my people.
These are my I'm notappropriating.
This is where my people comefrom.
And from my father's side, theGermanic Norse.
So I've been studying the Norseway of doing things, Ukrainian.
(21:08):
And then I also have past liveswhere I was in the isis got
isis from Egypt.
Many pest lives there.
So as I study Egyptian, thatfeels compatible and I can feel
good about that because I haveassociations.
Me, this person or the soul,has these associations.
(21:29):
Yeah.
John (21:30):
Can you speak to to some examples of how people have
changed or had moved forwardfrom their troubles?
Diane (21:39):
Yeah.
So one one example thatcustomize is a woman who lost
her daughter as an adult or theythirty years old in a foreign
country, and there's somemysterious, never really found
out why and how and all thestory.
So three years later, she comesto me and just this this grief
(22:01):
and anguish and so manyquestions.
And if I were just apsychologist, I would have
really approached it from tellme all about it and what have
you done so far?
Is there anything that helpsand do more of that?
There's some basic things likeself care.
Which when the body is healthy,then you can tolerate the
feelings more.
But from a Shamanic or energyperspective, if I could tune
(22:25):
into her daughter and actuallyfacilitate a conversation.
And so we did that, checked in,how's her daughter doing?
What's going on?
What Is there something thatshe wants my client to know
about that experience of herdeath or or does she want her
mother to be stuck in the grief?
Would she like her mother to tofigure a way to resolve it?
(22:50):
So the client invited herhusband as well and and so we
facilitated a coupleconversations with her daughter.
And it ends up helping reallyrelieve some of the what felt
stuck.
The stuckness of thequestioning and the grief.
Like, you know, most peoplewhen they lose lose a child,
that that shouldn't havehappened.
When that's a which feels likeit shouldn't.
(23:12):
This is Mhmm.
Unforeseen and devastating.
John (23:16):
I can't imagine what they would go through with that when
putting myself get her shoes.
What was her reaction when yousuggested that?
Diane (23:23):
I knew she was open to her because she said she'd spoke
to a medium.
Which in this case, the mediumwho works specifically to have
conversations with those who'vepassed them.
So I knew she was open to thatsort of thing.
And so her reaction was like,yes, please.
If you can talk to my talk, itwould be great.
Yeah.
John (23:45):
Do you have any other transform mission stories that
you can share?
Diane (23:49):
Yeah.
But kind of another I mean, Ihave black and lots.
But one in particular comes tomind is this client came to me.
She's a young woman, somewherein her thirties.
And
John (24:00):
Mhmm.
Diane (24:01):
But she had some mysterious physical ailments
that doctors medical people canreally find a good origin for a
reason for and has somedepression and some anxiety.
So these are generally thingsthat people come to therapy
before.
And I perceived that she wasopen to more energy.
So we were just we were doingbasic energy kinds of things.
(24:24):
Visualized being under awaterfall of light and that kind
of washed away some of theanxiety or Bay is your nervous
system.
And these are effective.
But when we were doing them, Icould perceive that her
grandmother was with her.
And I threw out the idea of,hey, do you ever feel like
there's somebody with him and orthat there's some other energy
(24:48):
or presence with you?
Is it possible that yourgrandmother might have just not
moved on?
I don't know.
It's interesting because My momwas pregnant with me when my
grandmother died.
Oh, that's really interesting.
So as I'm checking in with thespirit of her grandma, I think
her grandma's, yeah, I stayed.
I needed to stay and help.
(25:08):
And so I said, well, what if wehad a conversation with her and
she said, well, my mom wouldwant to be here for this.
So she invited her mom, so wedid a session.
And where we really talked withgrandma and let her know, and
they said things, the mom saidthings to grandma that really
(25:29):
she didn't get to say?
Because grandma had died moreof a suddenly kind of thing, but
grandma was able to let themknow.
I knew you needed help.
You were pregnant.
And I knew you needed help, soI wanted to stay and help.
And then at that point,sometimes the spirit doesn't
know how to move on if itbecomes time.
Because now this daughter wasin her thirties and mom didn't
(25:53):
need help raising the child isin adults.
So there was this reallybeautiful saying thank you so
much and it might be great foryou now to go to your rest and
go and take care of some thingsthat you need take care of as a
soul and so that I'm proud ofthat is both the people who are
(26:13):
soul in their bodies, thedaughter and the mother.
Felt so much relief and thatthey felt so much lighter and
the physical symptoms began toremit.
John (26:23):
Now that you've been a psychologist and a a a shaman,
how has your own life changed?
Diane (26:31):
Yeah, tremendously.
It when I think about I feellike everything that I've
pursuit, every workshop I'vetaken, every training I've
pursued, every teacher that I'velearned from has been for my
own self first.
And it's very much a Buddhistconcept of as we heal, it makes
(26:54):
it easier for others around usto heal.
So I'm doing all of this for myown self and then I have on the
side gun.
Oh, this would be helpful formy clients too.
So I still meet with my mentor.
Doris Samuelson.
She's a she's on a practitionerup in the Seattle area and a
colleague of Betsy Berkstrom,who's still my teacher.
(27:15):
So I was meeting with BetsyBergstrom once a week for a good
long time to do personaltransformation work, deep
possession, personal unraveling,energy clearing, ancestral
healing, all of that.
And every time I go through apersonal session for myself, I
am now more able to help otherclients that are suffering in in
(27:37):
similar ways.
So it just is it's is it's thebest possible scenario, I get
healed, and then I can helpothers heal in the same way.
John (27:46):
For your colleagues who are unaware what would you say
to to them should Shamanism comeup?
Why would you to handle thatexpressing what you've done and
how you merged your practicewith the two and suggest that it
might be something for them orwould you?
Diane (28:06):
Yeah.
It's Yeah.
No, that's a great question.
The universe keeps bringing meover the last few years keeps
bringing me therapists like thatwho are ready and open.
To expanding their practiceinto these realms Mhmm.
Into the non ordinary realms.
And to them, I just go rightinto I'm still very free to tell
(28:26):
them, like, how much fun I'mhaving and how how exciting it
is and how helpful thesepractices are And I have, like,
I have a consultation groupright now where I have two
there's two other therapiststhat we get together and we talk
about how we blend our therapywith I'm the only one who's a
Shamanic practitioner.
The other two are more justenergy psychology.
(28:48):
So we talk about it.
I have a few clients who aretherapists, and I'm introducing
them to these practices viatheir own personal growth and
transformation.
And in that way, it's just easybecause I just I just it it's I
have come to such a comfortlevel, but I just know these
work And I've read the research,which there's tons of it,
(29:10):
there's tons of these reallysmart research y people who have
proven that this stuff worksand that it's real.
There's a hundred and fiftyyears of research in the sci
phenomenon.
And then to the Clarivoyans,Clarivaudience, and remote
viewing these kind of things,speak with a dearly departed So
(29:32):
I feel very comfortable becauseI haven't read the research and
I keep looking at the newresearch.
If I come across though.
Let like, your scenario of himat a party, and he's a therapist
, and I don't come out and say,oh, you know, I do this cool
stuff.
But let's say that maybesomebody brings up Shamanism or
energy healing.
(29:52):
I what I could I don't knowthat I've done this, but this is
what I would like to be able todo and that would be to say
it's so much fun.
And it's so much easier.
I'm helping my clients in suchan easier way because as soon as
you invite in benevolent,angelic beings, compassion,
(30:17):
helping spirits, the ancestralhealing spirit for the client,
everything gets easier.
There's just a lightening andsoftening and smoothing out of
everything.
Thing and then opening for theclient to start seeing more of
the truth of what's going on.
So that's gonna be my new wayof approaching it when I go to a
(30:39):
party and I'm asked thatquestion.
John (30:40):
Yeah.
I couldn't think of adescription.
So what do you think the futureof psychology is, do you think
that they it will eventuallymorph into more of a energy,
schmatic, or feeling?
Diane (30:54):
Yeah.
There's absolutely a movementboth in the medical profession
towards integrating, let's say,eastern traditional Chinese
medicine or AYAveda into ourWestern medical model.
So there's already a lot ofthat, but there's also the
hardening of the side that wantsto just stay with the purely
(31:14):
material.
That's in the medical, but thenin the psychological, same
thing seems to be happening thatthere's so much more opening
for many mental healthpractitioners.
To go towards alternative,energetic, spiritual kinds of
things, which is reallybeautiful.
And I so I think that's gonnahappen more and more and there's
(31:36):
a hardening up the, I don'tknow, other side, but they feel
like they're on the other side.
I don't see them on the otherside, but that's how they they
look at us with such skepticism.
The president, I don't know ifhe's the current president a
couple of years ago, presidentof American psychological
association, came out with thoseenergy psychology people need
(31:58):
to lose their licenses, and it'smy job to to strip their
licenses from them becausethey're doing voodoo or whatever
.
That's not the word to use, butit was that sentiment.
They're outside their scope ofpractice or they're doing
unethical things.
And so I do feel like there'sthat kind of division.
(32:19):
For any licensed professional,it's if you wanna keep your
license, that you have to goabout it in ways that you are
ethical, that you that you haveinformed consent, that you're
describing to the client, thisis what you might expect.
These are the limitations ofwhat we're doing here really
(32:45):
making sure that they areagreeable to it, that they know
what's happening, and thatthey're agreeable to it.
And, you know, what I'm hopefulfor is that people who are
courageous like myself that willjust continue to do what your
soul is safe is the right thingfor you.
Not be in the fear of, oh, no.
(33:06):
I'll lose my license or oh, no.
My family members think I'm inthe all cult and satanic and
deemer I actually had a familymember say that I'm somewhere
messing with the devil, which isinteresting.
John (33:18):
I think the idea of the classical approach to mental
health, the psychologists, andthe sociologist, the
psychotherapists, I do like theidea that there's structure in a
sense of working with clientswhile having a scope of practice
.
That there's a set of ethics tosupport a practitioner in the
(33:39):
client?
Diane (33:40):
Let's say you just you come from the you come to the
Shamanic Practitioning or energyhealing just directly that way.
And there's not that muchtraining in how to do it
ethically, how to do theinformed consent, issues of
money, issues of reallyunderstanding what's the client
expectation and educating them,because a lot of people when
(34:04):
they're desperate and they'regoing just to a Shamanic
practitioner, let's say, they'redesperate for relief, and they
may look to that person asrescue me and not realize that
there's things they also have todo.
Towards their own healing Mhmm.
And if the fashion likepractitioner isn't careful, they
(34:25):
can get into and if they getinto trouble, that's not quite
the right word.
But where clients is reallyangry or disappointed, where
spent a lot of money and didn'tget relief.
And some of that is This iscoming from now the clinical
psychology.
There are people that truly dohave neurological difficulty 30s
(34:45):
, schizophrenia, or bipolar,autism, or physical issues like
what we find is they'rediscovering that the microbiome,
when that is totally destroyedand off, it creates bipolar like
symptoms.
And people appear very crazy.
And then they can feel likethey're demon possessed, then
(35:06):
they go to a Shamanicpractitioner, and and if the
Shamanic attrition doesn't askthe right questions about
medical health, then they couldtreat the this overshadowing
aspect, but really missing outon this person needs a lot of
medical attention too.
And they need a lot of selfcare too.
John (35:28):
How do you receive your enumeration for your services?
And I'm just thinking of,Patricia, who's tied to
insurance companies that accepther kind of practice.
I'm not talking our traumaticpractice, but just a
psychotherapy.
And and, of course, their scopeof practice from the insurance
standpoint is that they're notgonna pay for someone for coming
(35:48):
into chemanica therapy.
So what have you found the bethe best approach?
You're working with the foot oneach side?
Diane (35:59):
Best approach I've come to, and this is I've consulted
with there's a woman in MitchMurphy that that could be in the
the referral Yeah.
List that She's a doctor injurisprudence, so she's a lawyer
and she's a doctor in energymedicine and she offers that
part of her business is to helppeople with this kind of thing
(36:19):
that if myself and others, thereare certain clients that if
you're with an insurance panel,you have to do the empirically
validated treatment, cognitivebehavioral therapy, that kind of
thing.
And they won't pay for and theyget pretty upset if they found
out that you were doing energyhealing, you know.
And then for I don't takeinsurance.
(36:41):
I don't have that shoe becauseI stopped taking insurance
because I had that issue.
So now it's just cash pay.
I could do whatever I want, soto speak.
But you still have to operatewithin your scope of practice.
Meaning, I can't just go take aweekend workshop in Shamanism
and start doing Shamanicpractice with the clients that's
not ethical.
But I did my due diligence.
I did my years of training, andthen I'm offering it.
(37:04):
But I also find that I'm I'vedecided that I'm actually
splitting my business, so I havea psychotherapy business with
certain clients, and then I havea Shamanic practice or energy
healing practice that's separate.
And especially because afterthe pandemic, it really opened
our ability to use Zoom andpeople are more comfortable
using Zoom instead of coming inperson.
(37:25):
So I have clients in otherstates that I'm not licensed in
those states, so I cannot dopsychotherapy legally and
ethically.
So I can only do energy healing, Shamanic practice there, or
people call spiritual coachingin in with clients from the
other state.
So that's kind of one way to tonavigate that is doing two
(37:48):
different businesses separateclients.
John (37:51):
Well, well, That sounds like a good place to end up
before I start getting billed.
Diane (37:57):
Oh, I
John (37:59):
wanna thank you so much.
Okay.
And I learned actually, therewas a few things that I learned
at the ULC where it getsamplified in the after the
editing and that but there was afew things there that I was
gonna ask you, do you doShamanic work with clients
animals?
Diane (38:15):
Not done it with clients animals.
I I do energy healing on my ownanimals, and I have done animal
communication.
A little bit with clientsandals, but I don't feel like
they wanna build for thatbecause I'm not and not yet to
the level that I would like tobe at in order to advertise
(38:36):
myself as a animal communicatoror animal a shealer for for
their animals.
But I love working with animals, obviously.
And they'll just soak up thehealing.
Yeah.
John (38:48):
I love plants.
And and for me, thecommunicating with them is my
feeling and definitely Yeah.
Thoughts, platforms.
And I was wondering, would thatbe similar to animals?
I've never worked with animals.
That's why I'm I'm just kindacurious as to how you approach
your own.
Diane (39:05):
Yeah.
You know, it's I find it formyself, I find it easier to
communicate with animals thanwith the plants because with the
plants, I do just get moregeneral sense of feeling Are
they thirsty?
Are they too hot?
But animals, they'll have awhole conversation.
They're just talking.
They've been around humansenough that they're just like,
they'll just go in to what'sgoing on with them and what they
(39:26):
want and what they don't likeand they all have their own
individual personalities.
They most of it some animalshave been traumatized.
I found that they don't wannatalk because they don't trust.
But it's fun.
Yeah.
Our animals love us so much,and and I've found over the
years doing this work.
(39:46):
That I will often encounter ananimal still in their client
synergy field, that the animal,its body, died, it wanted to say
, but couldn't but spirit staysin order to continue to comfort.
The human, they're just the sunand the animals, they just love
us so much.
They're willing to do that.
John (40:07):
Mhmm.
Diane (40:08):
This is fine.
Yeah.
This is a great conversation.
I'm so glad that you invited me.
It's just wonderful.
Chat with you.
John (40:15):
Okay.
Will you stay well and we'llcatch up again?
Diane (40:17):
Yes, please.
Don't get strange.
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