July 29, 2024 • 39 mins
What happens when a life marked by epilepsy and emergency medical work collides with a spiritual calling? This week, we welcome Chris Wasco, a compassionate hospital chaplain and former EMT paramedic, to share her remarkable journey of healing and spirituality. Chris opens up about her life with generalized epilepsy and how it guided her spiritual path, transforming her approach to healing others. From the essential need for human connection to the profound impacts of grief and loss, Chris shares her insights on how moments of disconnection can lead to deep soul-searching and eventual reconnection. Her unique perspective as a psychic medium adds another layer of depth, highlighting the importance of compassion in guiding victims of narcissistic abuse.
We shift gears to discuss the intense emotional and psychological challenges faced by those in emergency medical services and healthcare. Chris recounts harrowing experiences, from traumatic calls and unsafe environments to the secondary trauma felt by dispatchers. The conversation also delves into the struggles of working during the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly the challenge of facilitating good deaths in such dire circumstances. We underscore the critical need for self-care and mental health support, emphasizing that acknowledging and processing these intense experiences is essential for well-being.
Finally, we explore the lasting impact of experiencing trauma from a young age and the importance of recognizing different types of loss. Chris reflects on how these early experiences shaped her perspective on grief, loss, and spirituality. We discuss the deep sense of purpose found in supporting people through the most intense moments of their lives, and the delicate balance between acknowledging suffering and finding gratitude. Through Chris's journey, we uncover the resilience of the human spirit and the profound healing power of empathy and connection. Join us for an insightful, heartfelt discussion on navigating trauma, spirituality, and healing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Moir (00:07):
Longing is a deep yearning for what is lost or
unobtainable and, amazingly,holds a transformative powers
when intertwined with self-careand spirituality.
When we set boundaries andpracticing self-compassion, we
navigate our longings whilepreserving our strength and
authenticity.
Embracing compassion openspathways to healing and
(00:28):
connections, helping us tonavigate the complexities of
relationships.
Acknowledging and honoring ourlongings, we transform grief
into strength and wisdom,fostering a richer, more
interconnected experience oflife where everyone feels valued
and cherished.
Chris Wasko (00:51):
I lived in a town that had train tracks and
unfortunately we had a number ofyoung people that would want to
die by suicide on the tracks.
We would get called into thatto really do some cleanup and
trying to be reverent in the waythat we did that.
(01:13):
But it was gruesome.
And there's things now like Ican't watch horror movies or
anything that has a lot ofphysical violence in it.
Especially we see a lot ofgunshots victims in our trauma
bay and we can't do it.
John Moir (01:31):
In today's episode, our guest delves into the
profound journey of spiritualawakening and healing not only
her own life, but also those sheworks with.
Thank you for joining with us.
You're listening to the UrbanGrief Shamans and I'm your host,
john Moyer.
Chris Wasko (01:51):
As a DMT, it was in the backs of the ambulances, in
addition to doing wound careand giving oxygen and providing
safe transport, holding people'shands who were scared.
Holding people's hands who werescared, bearing witness to the
suffering, maybe asking deepquestions why is this happening?
Those moments of humanconnection and recognizing
there's all sorts of ways toheal people, and that sense of
(02:13):
spiritual healing that happenedbetween two people, led me to do
the work that I do now ashospital chaplain.
John Moir (02:21):
Our guest is Chris Wasco, a compassionate hospital
chaplain and former EMTparamedic, whose spiritual
journey began after an intenseand emotional childhood.
As Chris worked on healing, herspirit began to awaken, leading
her to develop skills as apsychic medium.
This transformation allowed herto connect with spirits and
offer guidance, particularly tovictims of narcissistic abuse.
(02:44):
Join us as Chris shares herremarkable and soulful
development.
Chris Wasko (02:51):
I grew up in northern New Jersey.
I was a precocious kid.
My family went to the localPresbyterian church.
My mother was a nurse.
She stoked that fire in me.
I worked as an EMT I had totrain for that and it was in the
backs of the ambulances, inaddition to doing the minimal
wound care and giving oxygen andproviding safe transport.
(03:11):
I enjoyed holding people'shands who were scared, bearing
witness to the suffering.
They might be asking deepquestions like why is this
happening?
Those moments of humanconnection and recognizing
there's all sorts of ways toheal people and for me it was
that sense of spiritual healingthat can happen between two
people led me to do the workthat I do now as hospital
(03:33):
chaplain.
John Moir (03:34):
Growing up, were you introduced to grief?
Chris Wasko (03:36):
So I think the biggest grief that I had growing
up was what I would call anintrapsychic grief, which was
around a medical diagnosis thatI had.
So I became a patient and wasin and out of hospitals myself
and then was correctly diagnosedalthough it took a while with
generalized epilepsy, and so itwas some of those losses around
(04:00):
minimal things now, but to ateenager is important Losing my
hair due to the medication I wasput on, losing the driver's
license, losing my image ofmyself to be able to do the
things that I wanted to do andcouldn't, and really the way
that it impacted my relationshipwith God, because I was similar
to those patients in the backof the ambulance, wondering why
is this happening, feeling verymuch the dark night of the soul.
(04:23):
So when I think about differenttypes of loss, I think that was
a significant one for me.
That helped guide me into thejourney of being with other
people, especially when they'rediagnosed with something.
A question that I love when Iwalk into a hospital room and
people say to me oh, I'm notspiritual, I'm not religious,
that's okay, Tell me what doesmean something to you, what
(04:46):
fills up your heart or what isweighing on your soul in this
particular moment.
So trying to help them identifywhat theologian Paul Tillich
called the ultimate concern,because to me people are
spiritual even if they're notbelieving in God or they're not
prescribing to a certaininstitutionalized religion.
It's about identifying what wehold true to ourselves.
(05:07):
What is it we value?
And then where is the disconnect?
So for me, as instance I saidbefore, connecting with myself,
connecting with others andconnecting with a sense of the
sacred or the divine isimportant.
And I find disconnect happensfor people when they're not
feeling connected withthemselves.
So maybe some of my patientsare about to have surgery,
(05:30):
they're in a lot of pain, theydon't want to connect with their
bodies.
Their bodies have beenbetraying them with community.
Maybe it's being in thehospital, being away from their
loved ones.
I was with a patient not toolong ago who said I've never not
slept in the same bed as mywife for 60 years of marriage
and here I'm in the hospital andall alone.
(05:50):
So, even though it wastemporary and he was going to
have a good physical outcome,there's still that separation
and that does something to us.
And then, in terms of the divineor the sacred or God, or
however we may define it.
For some it may be nature, itmay be the universe.
I think it's how we're makingmeaning of what we're going
through, and there's times wherethat meaning may lead us to
(06:12):
believe that there's adisconnect there.
That it's when I'm with apatient who gets diagnosed with
lung cancer and says I neversmoked a day of my life.
I don't understand why this ishappening for me.
Then there's that disconnect ashe's trying to wrestle with.
This is not how I thought theuniverse should be ordered.
So really identifying where doesa person connect and where
(06:35):
might there be thatdisconnection is part of the
work that I do.
And then to get to your otherpoint about how to take ordinary
moments and really infuse thesacred, in A lot of times my
spiritual direction clients,some of whom are clergy, will
feel guilty and they say, oh, Ishould be reading or I should be
meditating for 45 minutes andadding things to their to-do
(07:00):
list that just make them feelcrummy when they don't get done.
And so I encourage them to saywhat are you already doing
throughout your day and how canwe make that a spiritual
practice, encouraging people tothink what is it that you're
already doing in your life andalmost like a sacred habit,
(07:21):
stacking right.
We don't need to necessarilycreate something new, but you
can do whatever you're doingalready with intention to really
separate it out as a you forgotto mention chocolate in that
comment about coffee.
Yes, I do think that chocolatecan also be a spiritual practice
, for me anyway.
John Moir (07:43):
Well, what's the general reaction of people when
you approach them aboutenhancing their spirituality?
Chris Wasko (07:49):
I think most people are interested in it,
especially those that aremeeting with me for spiritual
direction.
So they're self-selecting, tobe sure, and so it's people that
are wanting to do this.
A lot of the work that I dowith my individual clients is
around undoing some of thetoxicity that has happened to
(08:11):
them as a result of religiousinstitutions, and so that's a
lot of where I call it like apatient untangling of the ways
in which they have internalizedcertain theological truths that
may not be serving them wellanymore.
So it's what did they heargrowing up in their families of
(08:33):
origin or what was beingpreached from?
You know, maybe they didn't goto church, maybe it was just the
TV was saying something.
The ways that we may haveinternalized beliefs that may
not be serving us anymore andthere may be some harm in those.
So I think that is a lot of thework that I do that is helpful
(08:53):
for people.
But it takes a lot to analyzethat and look at that and say is
this really what I believe?
And I find that people arewilling to do that, particularly
those that are coming from atradition where they feel like
their faith doesn't fit anymoreand they're trying to find
something that's more authenticto who they are and who they've
become.
John Moir (09:14):
Is it the similar approach or response that you
get from a stranger?
You're a hospital chaplain, soyou're just given these are the
people who were brought in thehospital last night and you want
to just go see them, but youhave no relationship with them.
Chris Wasko (09:30):
Yeah.
So oftentimes people will saywhat's a chaplain?
They're very confused aboutwhat I'm doing when I come in
the room and sometimes they'llthink that I'm there to convert
them to a specific faithtradition.
I say no, I'm not the churchpolice.
I'm not taking attendance onwhat your religious practices
have been.
I let them know.
I'm an extra layer of emotionaland spiritual support because
(09:51):
being hospitalized can bring upso many different emotional and
spiritual experiences forindividuals.
And then certainly a lot of thework that I do with patients
and families is not thoseroutine we call them routine
visits but is also the crisisvisits, especially as I work in
a level one trauma center, sothat we are the point person to
be the family support whenthere's a car accident and their
(10:15):
loved ones are brought to ahospital and people's emotions
are sky high their anxiety,their fear, until they can have
some information about what'shappening.
And then also there'sbereavement.
I can't tell you how manydeathbeds I've been at in the
course of my career a fairnumber and helping families in
those moments to be able to saygoodbye to their loved ones and
(10:38):
being there for that reallyprofound and beautiful and hard
work to me is such a privilege.
John Moir (10:45):
Can you share some of your EMT experiences?
Chris Wasko (10:48):
Sure, I should clarify I was BLS.
I was never fancy enough to beALS, yeah, so two stories come
to my mind from my EMS days, andthen I'll switch to how I
support EMS now.
And I started doing that workas a teenager and I recall my
(11:08):
first code that I ever had wasthe gentleman.
Oh my goodness, he was probablyin his mid fifties and was
having some heart palpitationsand we were, but he was joking
and laughing as we loaded himinto the rig.
But then things went south aswe were driving and had to pull
over and do compressions and CPRand all of that and he didn't
(11:30):
make it.
And I remember when we pulledup to that ambulance we were
probably 12 miles from thehospital.
And when we pulled up to thehospital and his wife was
driving behind us, she was likewhat is going on?
He was fine, and so I remembershe just crumbled to the curb in
the ambulance bay and I justcrumbled down and sat there with
(11:51):
her, even as she was.
At first she was cursing at us,which I can totally understand.
Right, I've seen that manytimes in the hospital.
That anger has to go somewhere.
Of course it's going to go tothe providers.
But just sitting there andbeing with her as she was in
this terrible, worst place ofher life, starting trying to
figure out that, that shock ofit and not even knowing what to
say or to do, I just knew itwould be helpful for her not to
(12:13):
be alone in that moment, socrumbled next to her on the curb
and allowed her to sob into me.
So that, I think, is one of theexperiences that kind of
prepped my work into this.
Another experience I rememberhaving was the first this
might've been my very first callactually was to I'll be called
it at the time, which isprobably not politically correct
was to a meth den, and it was asuburban house in my
(12:36):
neighborhood.
I had no idea all that wasgoing on there and so certainly
I think that was a time where mynaivete was exposed and as I
went on more and more calls,that really got erased.
I just became cynical and jadedfor a little while.
But my partner, we had to goupstairs and my partner fell
(12:56):
through the stairs, so one ofthe gave way underneath him.
So I learned after that I saidokay, we always let the police
go up first, we don't go, wedon't go up first and it was,
and so we had to tend to him.
And it's also something aboutself-care, right, learning that
lesson of we have to be safeourselves.
Of course they taught us thatin school, but really
recognizing it out in the field.
(13:17):
And then we did have to get acrane from heavy rescue to help
us to get into the patient whohe had been dead for probably
three days at that point.
So there was nothing that wecould do, but we didn't know
that going in.
And so just I think that otherlesson of you never know what
you're going to find and I tryto bring that into my chaplaincy
(13:39):
students right, we have to beflexible, we have to roll with
whatever is coming along,because we don't know how a
patient is going to respond.
When you go into that door,much like when you're going out
to the scene, you don't knowwhat you're going to find.
And so some of the work now I dowith our EMTs, but also our
dispatchers.
Actually I've started workingwith them as well because it is,
(14:02):
as all your listeners will know, the secondary trauma or
vicarious trauma is what a lotof people call it second person
or vicarious.
But I think it's even more sothan that, because it's not just
that you're hearing aboutsomething that's going on,
you're involved in it.
So, for instance, I was talkingto one of our dispatchers and
(14:25):
they said they hear the terriblestuff that's going on and then
they don't feel like they canfully help, and so it doesn't
give us that satisfaction of theclosing of the loop that we
sometimes need in order to know.
Okay, this did tear up my soul alittle bit, but I think I made
it better by being there, likemy presence or how I was helping
(14:48):
impacted the situation enoughthat it was worth it.
And they don't always have thatbecause they don't always see
what the outcomes are, or we sawthis so much during COVID right
.
So part of the reason that Igot into this work was to be
present at death, because Ibelieve that people should be
able to have a good death, evenif it's in the hospital, even if
it is a horrendous situation.
(15:10):
If my presence can help even 1%, to me, that is significant and
worth it, but during COVIDthere were no good deaths in the
hospital.
It was all awful the holding upof iPads to say goodbye to the
family members, and it was justterrible.
And I live in New Jersey, soI'm talking the first wave of
COVID, and my colleagues whowere ALS and BLS were seeing and
(15:33):
experiencing the same thing.
So I think the first step assupporting providers and for
myself included is recognizingthe impact that this can take on
us, and I find a lot of peoplein healthcare like to live in
denial and say, oh no, thisdoesn't impact me at all.
And there's a fantastic quoteI'm probably butchering it at
(15:56):
this moment by Dr Raman, naomiRaman, who says it's impossible
to be immersed in water thewaters of suffering daily and
not get wet right Like it's justinevitable.
This is the water we swim in,the air that we're breathing,
and so we are going to beimpacted.
John Moir (16:16):
Now you said that you started out in IMSS as a
teenager.
I did, you did.
It's a pretty profoundoccupation, profession to step
into at that age, and I startedwhen I was 27, I think back in
78.
You weren't even born then, Idon't think.
Anyways, what I wanted to knowis that just how profound did
(16:37):
you find those first 10 calls?
Just to give it a number ofyour trauma calls.
I can remember still to thisday a lot of the people who were
killed in car accidents orsuicide or violence.
they're still with you and Iremember my reaction to my first
highway trauma.
(16:57):
I'm wondering about yourexperiences because you carry
all this stuff.
Chris Wasko (17:02):
Oh, absolutely, and I'm a firm believer of you know
, I really like Bessel van derKolk's work the Body Keeps the
Score and a lot of the othertrauma practitioners that are
talking about.
Even if we talk about thesethings and process them, our
bodies hold on to them andthere's, I think, a movement
toward needing something beyondjust talk therapy to process
(17:25):
some of this, and I've even donesome EMDR myself.
That's something I wouldrecommend to people as well.
Which, when I was in socialwork school was brand new, but
now there's been a ton ofresearch on.
That really helps with PTSD.
Because that was a reality forme was being at these, some of
these gruesome sites and justnot knowing how to process them.
(17:46):
And we didn't have it.
We didn't have a chaplain, wedidn't have psychologists or
anyone to even normalize it, tosay, yeah, this is a lot and
there was very much this cultureof you just move on, you don't
really let it get to you.
And, yeah, some of the harderones for me I struggle with.
(18:06):
I'm like, oh, I don't even wantto go into too much detail
because your listeners may betraumatized by it, but I trust
that they'll know how to carefor themselves.
But I lived in a town that hada train station, train tracks,
and unfortunately we had anumber of usually young people
(18:27):
that would want to die bysuicide on the tracks and then
we would get called into that toreally do some cleanup and
trying to be reverent in the waythat we did that.
But it was gruesome.
And there's things now like Ican't watch horror movies or
anything that has a lot ofphysical violence in it.
(18:49):
Especially we see a lot ofgunshots of victims in our
trauma bay and I'm like no, Ican't do it, and my husband
knows I can't do any sort of warmovie or anything like that
because seeing what that does inreal life I have no interest in
watching it on the screen.
So I think from getting involvedin that at a young age really
(19:10):
sensitized me to what people gothrough and it comes out in
funny ways now, because it'salways been in the work that
I've done, that I forget.
Oh, this isn't normal for otherpeople to have experienced this
much.
So, for instance, I trainchaplain interns and people that
(19:30):
are wanting to do this work.
So sometimes it's seminarystudents or sometimes it's
clergy who are wanting to becomemore effective in their
spiritual caregiving moreeffective in their spiritual
caregiving.
And one day I scheduled it wasan orientation week for our new
interns or residents and Ischeduled a visit to the morgue
because we sometimes have to domorgue visits, so I wanted them
to be able to see it before theyhad to go down there with the
family.
(19:51):
And I did it right before lunchand I wasn't thinking, they all
went off their lunch.
They said, oh my gosh, how canyou expect us to eat now,
christine?
I was like, oh, I've just grownup with dead bodies.
It didn't occur to me that thiswas something that was so now
I'm very cautious and carefulabout when I schedule that and
we have a debriefing sessionafterwards, or so really trying
to recognize this is noteveryone's experience.
(20:12):
It helped me, I think,tremendously to be able to work
in healthcare and do the workthat I do with death and with
education.
So I'm grateful for it.
I wouldn't change it, but I dohave to try to make sure I'm
seeking out joy tocounterbalance some of the
intensity of the experience aswell.
John Moir (20:30):
Yeah, I'm still curious.
If you just step back, Iimagine you're an older teenager
and I don't know what yourchildhood was like growing up,
but I would think that many ofus were somewhat protected.
We didn't see a lot of traumaat all, other than maybe cut
fingers, stubbed toes andabrasion on our knees.
But those pivotal,life-changing events to show up
(20:56):
at a scene like that and it'syour responsibility now to jump
in at less than 20, how old yourage was, we can figure you got
to be around 18 at least, yeah,yeah and to take that
responsibility on, and I can'timagine that it didn't affect
you deeply at that time.
Chris Wasko (21:17):
I was actually 16 when I first got licensed and
did my training.
When I went through it, I wasthe youngest one in my state to
have ever done it, because theyjust changed, I think, the age
limits.
I do think it was certainlyinstrumental in terms of what I
(21:39):
do now, because I saw thevulnerability that people were
going through and really beingin touch with a sense of
mortality which, especially as ateenager, it's quite easy to
feel invincible, but being insituations where it was part of
(22:02):
the lived experience, I thinkone of the ways that it changed
me was, I just expected thegrief or the loss.
So, for instance, an experienceI had 16 years later when I had
a series of miscarriages that Iwent through about six in total
the first one.
I remember just thinking, oh,that makes sense.
(22:23):
Of course I was devastated byit, but I also wasn't surprised
the way that a lot of my otherfriends were surprised when they
were going through the samething.
They're like, oh, I can'tbelieve, I never thought that
this could happen to me.
I said, oh, I never thought itcould happen to me, it could not
happen to me.
I said, oh, I never thought itcould happen to me, it could not
(22:46):
happen to me.
So I think it was just seeingsuffering all around made me
recognize just how universal itis.
And for me it is also pairedwith my spirituality because,
going back to that early beliefof feeling that God wanted me to
help people, part of what I seeas that help is being with
people on the worst day of theirlives.
I sometimes joke with friends ofmine who are church ministers
(23:10):
because they say I don't knowhow you could do what you do for
a living.
I say I couldn't do what you do.
I couldn't deal with thepolitics of where we're putting
the parking lot or people givingyou feedback about the sermons.
I can't deal with that.
I feel like I can only do theintensity, and to me that's what
matters most.
Everything else goes away.
It's a bit like some people saythey can't do small talk, they
(23:33):
can only have really intenseconversations.
They don't have the patiencefor the small talk, and yeah, so
for me it's really meaningfulto be there with people at the
end of their lives or peoplethat are just going through
intense spiritual distress, totry to help them to know that
they're not alone in it.
John Moir (23:51):
Just one more question and I'll step away from
your early years.
Chris Wasko (23:55):
It's great.
I haven't thought about some ofthem in years.
John Moir (23:57):
Yeah, I found for me there was a hardening place at
the very beginning yes, From myfirst highway trauma.
I was working with an olderfellow and I just remember this
flush going up my body and downand I was feeling proud that I
can toughen this out.
This young lady was dead at thescenes.
We had to wait for theundertakers to come and recover
(24:21):
the body and the coroner hadalready pronounced her, so we
just had to wait and we justhelped to clean up a little bit.
But the next night we had aparty and I wasn't a drinker at
all, but I sure passed my limit.
It was so unusual for me to dothat, and then throughout those
early years you bounce back andforth through that from being it
(24:44):
was mostly a male dominantenvironment at that time and you
emulate all these old pros thatI've been on here forever.
And then something takes placein us that I don't want to say
it's a softening, but I think,as you described it, there's a
different kind of perspectivetakes hold and you realize that
(25:04):
all of us are on a differentpath, and for me it sounds a bit
like you as well, that whatstoked my passion was bringing
order to chaos chaos I felt thatwas a role that I could play
because at that time, because ofall the trauma grief that I
experienced beforehand, gave mea sense of control.
(25:27):
Because, that's how, when youhave so much, you don't want
anybody to know that you arecarrying this grief or this
shame around.
So it's all about control and Ifind that a lot of medics the
good ones, these present thatway and then eventually you get
older and then you have to cometo terms with a lot of this what
we see, people, we see thingsthat we shouldn't have to see,
(25:51):
but somebody because it's notnormal seeing people in this way
, but to bring our strengths tothat person and their families
and also to not just spiritually, physically, mentally to be a
big help to them, is verytransformative for us.
(26:12):
And so that's like my process,and how much do you think that
that changed you?
Because you didn't go into thechurch right away, as a teenager
.
Chris Wasko (26:24):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I think that's such a profoundjourney and I love how you
articulate it this hardening andthen a softening and I
definitely learned the hardeningwhen I first started.
I joke, that's where I learnedall the dirty jokes and all the
curse words that you wouldn'texpect a Presbyterian minister
to know.
I learned it from hanging outwith uh, with folks at the
(26:46):
rescue building and also thegallows humor right the ways,
yes, yes, very dark humor whichstill exists in.
I still see it all the time inour emergency room in particular
, and that's something else thatmy students really struggle
with.
They're like, oh, this isterribly irreverent and you have
to be able to understand wherepeople are coming from and that
(27:08):
this is a coping mechanism.
It's a strange one, but it is away of taking some of the
pressure off and really turningthat release valve a little bit.
Now we want to make sure thatfamilies aren't hearing any of
this, and so I've had to havesome of those conversations with
family right outside and peopleare joking in this way, but to
(27:28):
me it's one of the ways that wecan keep doing this work is
having to find our own way ofprocessing it, even if it sounds
like that.
Yeah, and I was involved in thechurch the same time that I was
doing the EMT work, but when Iwas in seminary it was when I
stopped, because they make youlearn a lot in seminary, so
(27:51):
that's when I stoppedparticipating and riding in the
backs of ambulances.
But now I find that gives methat credentialing when I am
talking to our EMTs or ourdispatchers, because at first
they don't really want to talkto me.
I'm like, oh no, I was, I wasan EMT too.
And then, oh okay, then you getit, then they'll talk to me,
(28:13):
because I think we want to beknown and we don't want this
outsider.
We want someone thatunderstands what we go through
on the regular to be able totalk to us and I find that true
throughout the hospital.
Actually we have a terrific EAPprogram or employee assistance
program, and they'll come in anddo debriefs with staff
especially.
(28:34):
We do a lot of them after someof the intense trauma situations
that we have.
But oftentimes they call meinstead.
They say we don't want EAP.
We know you.
We want one of our chaplains tolead it and sometimes I say I
can't.
I was in it, I can't do that,someone else has to come in.
But I think that it's certainlya compliment to see the value
(28:55):
of bringing in the spiritualcomponent but also bringing in
the familiarity of all being init together.
John Moir (29:01):
Do you have a particular technique or practice
that you apply to those who arestruggling with loss?
Chris Wasko (29:11):
It depends so much on what is the loss, right, and
who is the individual and who isthe individual?
So sometimes it's aboutidentifying what the loss is and
naming the loss.
So certainly a lot of what wedo and what your listeners are
familiar with is relationshiploss.
(29:32):
So it is around the death ofthe individual, and certainly so
for people that just lost theirloved one, it's obvious what
they are grieving For.
(29:57):
Some of our practitioners sayso.
If I'm working with the nursesor the doctors after there's
been a death, they don't havethe same relationship to that
person as that person's spousewould have.
So it's not necessarily therelationship that they're
grieving in the same way, butthere's other losses that can be
brought up for that.
So sometimes it's thecumulative loss that we were
talking about before.
It's like the sheer number oftimes that they've had to try to
resuscitate someone, even thatweek, right, and so that's
what's going on for them.
Sometimes it's they just had aloved one in their life die, and
(30:21):
so this is going to feel adifferent way.
One that is often very difficultfor healthcare staff to process
are younger individuals,individuals in their 20s and 30s
, because it is, I think, areminder of people's own
mortality, and then the otherones that are hard, of course,
are children, but reallypreventable deaths.
(30:42):
So things that could have beenavoided, such as drownings, such
as accidents and things of thisnature, because that brings up
people's belief in that orderingof the system and the universe
that we talked about before.
Why is this happening?
And really, looking at thosedeep philosophical and
(31:03):
theological questions, onepatient death can bring about so
many different losses for anindividual as the healthcare
practitioner, so we really startby naming that and
acknowledging what's going onChristine.
John Moir (31:19):
How do you support people, uh, who has great fear
of death?
Chris Wasko (31:23):
We explore it, I might say tell me more about it.
What is the fear?
And those are conversationsI've had a number of times, and
so for some people, the fear isnot knowing what's on, what's
going to be on the other side ofdeath, and I wish I knew, I
wish I had the answers forpeople, because they ask me all
the time and I don't know.
(31:44):
And that's where we explore.
Okay, what do you think itmight be for that particular
individual?
Another fear that people comeup with around death is pain.
So they really fear thatthey're going to be in pain,
especially if they know thattheir death is more imminent.
And so that's a conversationthat we bring in the medical
(32:06):
team on to say, okay, this is avalid fear.
How might we acknowledge this?
For you?
I think the biggest fear that Ihear expressed is fear of
leaving one's family behind, andit's really sadness, right, the
sadness that is there and thegrief that is there from that
individual voicing that, and sobeing present with them and
hearing them talk about it andthen sometimes we will do it is
(32:29):
different and there's.
I should have prefaced this bysaying there's all different
types of death, right, so we'vebeen talking a little bit more
about the crisis death, which wedo a lot of in the hospital,
but there's also death wherepeople know when it's gonna be
happening or when someone is atthe end of their life, and they
can do a little bit morepreparation for that.
So not everyone does come to aplace of accepting their own
death.
And I will say the last dynamicthat I see a lot of is the
(32:52):
patient is ready for death andreally accepting of it,
especially if it has been apainful journey and for them
this is going to be, a relief,but the family is not.
And I understand that the familythey want to hold on to their
loved one for as long aspossible.
And so I hear patients, andthis is sometimes why I try to
talk to patients individually,without their family's presence.
(33:13):
I'll do both, but I want tomake sure that I'm able to get
the full story, because thepatient will say to me like oh,
everyone tells me I just have tokeep fighting and be strong and
I don't want to do that anymore, like I'm ready, I'm done, but
they're not listening and theytell me not to say that and not
to think like that.
And so then it's really gettingto be the person that they say
that out loud to, becausethere's no one else that is
(33:34):
going to listen to them, becausethey have different motive,
right, the family, of course, isgoing through their own
different griefs.
John Moir (33:40):
I have a dear friend who's a retired Anglican priest
and we're talking about a death.
This is going back a couple ofyears now, and what surprised me
was you said that the membersof her church were losing faith
in their belief as their time ofdeath neared.
What's your thoughts on that?
Chris Wasko (33:57):
Yeah, it varies to individuals.
For sure, I probably hear moreof that as a hospital chaplain
than their clergy may hear,because I have the anonymity
that is attached to me versustheir clergy.
A lot of times patients will,because I may ask them have you
talked about this with anyone?
Especially if I know that theyare a congregant somewhere.
(34:19):
They'll say no because I don'twant, because they believe it's
blasphemous or they don't wanttheir clergy person to know that
they're struggling in this wayyeah, it's often how I hear it
expressed is frustration atunanswered prayer comes across
quite a bit Like I've beenpraying to get better and it's
(34:41):
not happening, which I think,then, is also frustration at God
.
So that is probably one of thebiggest things I hear in the
hospital in general.
So it could be an end of life,but it could be really.
Any part of one's journey isanger at God, and a way in which
I think it comes out a lot isespecially as it relates to.
(35:01):
One of my pet peeves as ahospital chaplain is the use of
what I call religious platitudes.
So you'll be familiar with theseand I'm sure your listeners
will know them, these toxicspirituality, positivity sayings
that are not even biblical, butthey've made their way into our
cultural lexicon.
So things like God neededanother angel, or everything
(35:26):
happens for a reason, or justlet go and let God, or God never
gives you more than you canhandle.
So these things that are meantto inspire people but really do
the opposite, they can cause alot of spiritual harm.
And so I'm usually on theopposite end of that when I'm
with people.
They've been told these thingslike you just have to have faith
(35:46):
, and then they said the faithisn't working for me, like I'm
not getting better, I'm notgetting what I want, and so then
they believe that their faithisn't strong enough or they do
have this anger at God, becauseif you're told God never gives
you more than he can handle, butthen you're given quite a bit,
(36:07):
of course you're going to thinkGod's a jerk if that's the case
or really quite evil andmaleficent.
So I certainly encourage a lotof people that I talk to not to
say those things.
I think we say them thinkingthat we're helping, but we're
actually doing a lot of harmbecause they become internalized
from when people are gettingthose and they really silence
the experience to what someoneis going through.
John Moir (36:23):
Okay, so what would be some spiritual practices you
could recommend for someone witha hectic schedule who struggles
to find the time for?
Chris Wasko (36:33):
themselves.
That's a great question, soI'll give you some really
specific and simple things totry, knowing that it's not going
to be the same for everyone.
So some people, a spiritualpractice might really work for
them.
For others that might not bethe one.
But one thing I would recommendis you take a five-minute walk
(36:54):
outside and don't be listeningto anything on your phone, just
really trying to, even if you'rein a city and there may not be
a lot of greenery around you,just noticing the wind on your
face or the sun warming you,even the other people that you
might encounter walking by.
Just trying to take five minutesand say I'm just going to go
(37:15):
for a walk and see what happens,even if you're walking to your
car from the grocery storeparking lots, doing so to be
able to just take a deep breathas you're going in and having
some mindfulness in that moment.
Another practice that I thinkcan be helpful for people is a
version of a gratitude practice,and they have apps for this if
(37:37):
people are interested in thatsort of thing, but you can just
do it by writing something downor writing something in your
phone.
I've gone through periods whereI like to write down either one
or three small things thatyou're grateful for that day.
And I'm not talking about thebig things like, oh, my health,
my family, my house, all thoseare well and good and it's
helpful to have that, but I'mlooking for micro gratitudes.
(38:00):
What are the very small thingsthat you were grateful for in
that moment, because that canreally shift our mindset.
So it may be something assimple as today.
I am grateful that I got towork on time, when I'm usually
sitting in traffic.
Or I'm grateful that thisconversation with a coworker
went better than I thought itwas going to go.
(38:22):
Or I'm grateful that that billthat came in the mail was a
little bit lower than what Ithought it would be, or I'm
grateful that that bill thatcame in the mail was a little
bit lower than what I thought itwould be.
I'm grateful for how nutty mygranola tasted when I made it.
Really looking for small things,because that is the art of
noticing, and when we aregrateful for the small things,
that can help us to be gratefulfor the larger things too.
(38:42):
And I'm not talking aboutgratitude at the exclusion of
the suffering, because I'm nottalking about gratitude at the
exclusion of the suffering,because I'm not saying focus on
only the good.
I'm saying no, even in thesuffering there can be small
things that you're grateful for,and so really trying to hold
those two in tension.
John Moir (38:59):
Thank you for joining us on this episode with
Christine Waskell.
We hope her journey from EMT tochaplain has inspired you and
provided new perspectives onnavigating trauma, PTSD and the
power of compassionate healing.
Christine's story is atestament to the strength of the
human spirit and the profoundimpact of empathy and connection
(39:20):
in the face of suffering.
If you found value in today'sepisode, please share it with
others who might benefit fromChristine's insight, and don't
forget to subscribe to ourpodcasts.
Until next time, remember totake care of yourselves and each
other, finding moments ofmindfulness and compassion in
your everyday lives.
Thank you for listening.
Longing is a deep yearning for what is lost or
unobtainable and, amazingly,holds a transformative powers
when intertwined with self-careand spirituality.
When we set boundaries andpracticing self-compassion, we
navigate our longings whilepreserving our strength and
authenticity.
Embracing compassion openspathways to healing and
(00:28):
connections, helping us tonavigate the complexities of
relationships.
Acknowledging and honoring ourlongings, we transform grief
into strength and wisdom,fostering a richer, more
interconnected experience oflife where everyone feels valued
and cherished.
Chris Wasko (00:51):
I lived in a town that had train tracks and
unfortunately we had a number ofyoung people that would want to
die by suicide on the tracks.
We would get called into thatto really do some cleanup and
trying to be reverent in the waythat we did that.
(01:13):
But it was gruesome.
And there's things now like Ican't watch horror movies or
anything that has a lot ofphysical violence in it.
Especially we see a lot ofgunshots victims in our trauma
bay and we can't do it.
John Moir (01:31):
In today's episode, our guest delves into the
profound journey of spiritualawakening and healing not only
her own life, but also those sheworks with.
Thank you for joining with us.
You're listening to the UrbanGrief Shamans and I'm your host,
john Moyer.
Chris Wasko (01:51):
As a DMT, it was in the backs of the ambulances, in
addition to doing wound careand giving oxygen and providing
safe transport, holding people'shands who were scared.
Holding people's hands who werescared, bearing witness to the
suffering, maybe asking deepquestions why is this happening?
Those moments of humanconnection and recognizing
there's all sorts of ways toheal people, and that sense of
(02:13):
spiritual healing that happenedbetween two people, led me to do
the work that I do now ashospital chaplain.
John Moir (02:21):
Our guest is Chris Wasco, a compassionate hospital
chaplain and former EMTparamedic, whose spiritual
journey began after an intenseand emotional childhood.
As Chris worked on healing, herspirit began to awaken, leading
her to develop skills as apsychic medium.
This transformation allowed herto connect with spirits and
offer guidance, particularly tovictims of narcissistic abuse.
(02:44):
Join us as Chris shares herremarkable and soulful
development.
Chris Wasko (02:51):
I grew up in northern New Jersey.
I was a precocious kid.
My family went to the localPresbyterian church.
My mother was a nurse.
She stoked that fire in me.
I worked as an EMT I had totrain for that and it was in the
backs of the ambulances, inaddition to doing the minimal
wound care and giving oxygen andproviding safe transport.
(03:11):
I enjoyed holding people'shands who were scared, bearing
witness to the suffering.
They might be asking deepquestions like why is this
happening?
Those moments of humanconnection and recognizing
there's all sorts of ways toheal people and for me it was
that sense of spiritual healingthat can happen between two
people led me to do the workthat I do now as hospital
(03:33):
chaplain.
John Moir (03:34):
Growing up, were you introduced to grief?
Chris Wasko (03:36):
So I think the biggest grief that I had growing
up was what I would call anintrapsychic grief, which was
around a medical diagnosis thatI had.
So I became a patient and wasin and out of hospitals myself
and then was correctly diagnosedalthough it took a while with
generalized epilepsy, and so itwas some of those losses around
(04:00):
minimal things now, but to ateenager is important Losing my
hair due to the medication I wasput on, losing the driver's
license, losing my image ofmyself to be able to do the
things that I wanted to do andcouldn't, and really the way
that it impacted my relationshipwith God, because I was similar
to those patients in the backof the ambulance, wondering why
is this happening, feeling verymuch the dark night of the soul.
(04:23):
So when I think about differenttypes of loss, I think that was
a significant one for me.
That helped guide me into thejourney of being with other
people, especially when they'rediagnosed with something.
A question that I love when Iwalk into a hospital room and
people say to me oh, I'm notspiritual, I'm not religious,
that's okay, Tell me what doesmean something to you, what
(04:46):
fills up your heart or what isweighing on your soul in this
particular moment.
So trying to help them identifywhat theologian Paul Tillich
called the ultimate concern,because to me people are
spiritual even if they're notbelieving in God or they're not
prescribing to a certaininstitutionalized religion.
It's about identifying what wehold true to ourselves.
(05:07):
What is it we value?
And then where is the disconnect?
So for me, as instance I saidbefore, connecting with myself,
connecting with others andconnecting with a sense of the
sacred or the divine isimportant.
And I find disconnect happensfor people when they're not
feeling connected withthemselves.
So maybe some of my patientsare about to have surgery,
(05:30):
they're in a lot of pain, theydon't want to connect with their
bodies.
Their bodies have beenbetraying them with community.
Maybe it's being in thehospital, being away from their
loved ones.
I was with a patient not toolong ago who said I've never not
slept in the same bed as mywife for 60 years of marriage
and here I'm in the hospital andall alone.
(05:50):
So, even though it wastemporary and he was going to
have a good physical outcome,there's still that separation
and that does something to us.
And then, in terms of the divineor the sacred or God, or
however we may define it.
For some it may be nature, itmay be the universe.
I think it's how we're makingmeaning of what we're going
through, and there's times wherethat meaning may lead us to
(06:12):
believe that there's adisconnect there.
That it's when I'm with apatient who gets diagnosed with
lung cancer and says I neversmoked a day of my life.
I don't understand why this ishappening for me.
Then there's that disconnect ashe's trying to wrestle with.
This is not how I thought theuniverse should be ordered.
So really identifying where doesa person connect and where
(06:35):
might there be thatdisconnection is part of the
work that I do.
And then to get to your otherpoint about how to take ordinary
moments and really infuse thesacred, in A lot of times my
spiritual direction clients,some of whom are clergy, will
feel guilty and they say, oh, Ishould be reading or I should be
meditating for 45 minutes andadding things to their to-do
(07:00):
list that just make them feelcrummy when they don't get done.
And so I encourage them to saywhat are you already doing
throughout your day and how canwe make that a spiritual
practice, encouraging people tothink what is it that you're
already doing in your life andalmost like a sacred habit,
(07:21):
stacking right.
We don't need to necessarilycreate something new, but you
can do whatever you're doingalready with intention to really
separate it out as a you forgotto mention chocolate in that
comment about coffee.
Yes, I do think that chocolatecan also be a spiritual practice
, for me anyway.
John Moir (07:43):
Well, what's the general reaction of people when
you approach them aboutenhancing their spirituality?
Chris Wasko (07:49):
I think most people are interested in it,
especially those that aremeeting with me for spiritual
direction.
So they're self-selecting, tobe sure, and so it's people that
are wanting to do this.
A lot of the work that I dowith my individual clients is
around undoing some of thetoxicity that has happened to
(08:11):
them as a result of religiousinstitutions, and so that's a
lot of where I call it like apatient untangling of the ways
in which they have internalizedcertain theological truths that
may not be serving them wellanymore.
So it's what did they heargrowing up in their families of
(08:33):
origin or what was beingpreached from?
You know, maybe they didn't goto church, maybe it was just the
TV was saying something.
The ways that we may haveinternalized beliefs that may
not be serving us anymore andthere may be some harm in those.
So I think that is a lot of thework that I do that is helpful
(08:53):
for people.
But it takes a lot to analyzethat and look at that and say is
this really what I believe?
And I find that people arewilling to do that, particularly
those that are coming from atradition where they feel like
their faith doesn't fit anymoreand they're trying to find
something that's more authenticto who they are and who they've
become.
John Moir (09:14):
Is it the similar approach or response that you
get from a stranger?
You're a hospital chaplain, soyou're just given these are the
people who were brought in thehospital last night and you want
to just go see them, but youhave no relationship with them.
Chris Wasko (09:30):
Yeah.
So oftentimes people will saywhat's a chaplain?
They're very confused aboutwhat I'm doing when I come in
the room and sometimes they'llthink that I'm there to convert
them to a specific faithtradition.
I say no, I'm not the churchpolice.
I'm not taking attendance onwhat your religious practices
have been.
I let them know.
I'm an extra layer of emotionaland spiritual support because
(09:51):
being hospitalized can bring upso many different emotional and
spiritual experiences forindividuals.
And then certainly a lot of thework that I do with patients
and families is not thoseroutine we call them routine
visits but is also the crisisvisits, especially as I work in
a level one trauma center, sothat we are the point person to
be the family support whenthere's a car accident and their
(10:15):
loved ones are brought to ahospital and people's emotions
are sky high their anxiety,their fear, until they can have
some information about what'shappening.
And then also there'sbereavement.
I can't tell you how manydeathbeds I've been at in the
course of my career a fairnumber and helping families in
those moments to be able to saygoodbye to their loved ones and
(10:38):
being there for that reallyprofound and beautiful and hard
work to me is such a privilege.
John Moir (10:45):
Can you share some of your EMT experiences?
Chris Wasko (10:48):
Sure, I should clarify I was BLS.
I was never fancy enough to beALS, yeah, so two stories come
to my mind from my EMS days, andthen I'll switch to how I
support EMS now.
And I started doing that workas a teenager and I recall my
(11:08):
first code that I ever had wasthe gentleman.
Oh my goodness, he was probablyin his mid fifties and was
having some heart palpitationsand we were, but he was joking
and laughing as we loaded himinto the rig.
But then things went south aswe were driving and had to pull
over and do compressions and CPRand all of that and he didn't
(11:30):
make it.
And I remember when we pulledup to that ambulance we were
probably 12 miles from thehospital.
And when we pulled up to thehospital and his wife was
driving behind us, she was likewhat is going on?
He was fine, and so I remembershe just crumbled to the curb in
the ambulance bay and I justcrumbled down and sat there with
(11:51):
her, even as she was.
At first she was cursing at us,which I can totally understand.
Right, I've seen that manytimes in the hospital.
That anger has to go somewhere.
Of course it's going to go tothe providers.
But just sitting there andbeing with her as she was in
this terrible, worst place ofher life, starting trying to
figure out that, that shock ofit and not even knowing what to
say or to do, I just knew itwould be helpful for her not to
(12:13):
be alone in that moment, socrumbled next to her on the curb
and allowed her to sob into me.
So that, I think, is one of theexperiences that kind of
prepped my work into this.
Another experience I rememberhaving was the first this
might've been my very first callactually was to I'll be called
it at the time, which isprobably not politically correct
was to a meth den, and it was asuburban house in my
(12:36):
neighborhood.
I had no idea all that wasgoing on there and so certainly
I think that was a time where mynaivete was exposed and as I
went on more and more calls,that really got erased.
I just became cynical and jadedfor a little while.
But my partner, we had to goupstairs and my partner fell
(12:56):
through the stairs, so one ofthe gave way underneath him.
So I learned after that I saidokay, we always let the police
go up first, we don't go, wedon't go up first and it was,
and so we had to tend to him.
And it's also something aboutself-care, right, learning that
lesson of we have to be safeourselves.
Of course they taught us thatin school, but really
recognizing it out in the field.
(13:17):
And then we did have to get acrane from heavy rescue to help
us to get into the patient whohe had been dead for probably
three days at that point.
So there was nothing that wecould do, but we didn't know
that going in.
And so just I think that otherlesson of you never know what
you're going to find and I tryto bring that into my chaplaincy
(13:39):
students right, we have to beflexible, we have to roll with
whatever is coming along,because we don't know how a
patient is going to respond.
When you go into that door,much like when you're going out
to the scene, you don't knowwhat you're going to find.
And so some of the work now I dowith our EMTs, but also our
dispatchers.
Actually I've started workingwith them as well because it is,
(14:02):
as all your listeners will know, the secondary trauma or
vicarious trauma is what a lotof people call it second person
or vicarious.
But I think it's even more sothan that, because it's not just
that you're hearing aboutsomething that's going on,
you're involved in it.
So, for instance, I was talkingto one of our dispatchers and
(14:25):
they said they hear the terriblestuff that's going on and then
they don't feel like they canfully help, and so it doesn't
give us that satisfaction of theclosing of the loop that we
sometimes need in order to know.
Okay, this did tear up my soul alittle bit, but I think I made
it better by being there, likemy presence or how I was helping
(14:48):
impacted the situation enoughthat it was worth it.
And they don't always have thatbecause they don't always see
what the outcomes are, or we sawthis so much during COVID right
.
So part of the reason that Igot into this work was to be
present at death, because Ibelieve that people should be
able to have a good death, evenif it's in the hospital, even if
it is a horrendous situation.
(15:10):
If my presence can help even 1%, to me, that is significant and
worth it, but during COVIDthere were no good deaths in the
hospital.
It was all awful the holding upof iPads to say goodbye to the
family members, and it was justterrible.
And I live in New Jersey, soI'm talking the first wave of
COVID, and my colleagues whowere ALS and BLS were seeing and
(15:33):
experiencing the same thing.
So I think the first step assupporting providers and for
myself included is recognizingthe impact that this can take on
us, and I find a lot of peoplein healthcare like to live in
denial and say, oh no, thisdoesn't impact me at all.
And there's a fantastic quoteI'm probably butchering it at
(15:56):
this moment by Dr Raman, naomiRaman, who says it's impossible
to be immersed in water thewaters of suffering daily and
not get wet right Like it's justinevitable.
This is the water we swim in,the air that we're breathing,
and so we are going to beimpacted.
John Moir (16:16):
Now you said that you started out in IMSS as a
teenager.
I did, you did.
It's a pretty profoundoccupation, profession to step
into at that age, and I startedwhen I was 27, I think back in
78.
You weren't even born then, Idon't think.
Anyways, what I wanted to knowis that just how profound did
(16:37):
you find those first 10 calls?
Just to give it a number ofyour trauma calls.
I can remember still to thisday a lot of the people who were
killed in car accidents orsuicide or violence.
they're still with you and Iremember my reaction to my first
highway trauma.
(16:57):
I'm wondering about yourexperiences because you carry
all this stuff.
Chris Wasko (17:02):
Oh, absolutely, and I'm a firm believer of you know
, I really like Bessel van derKolk's work the Body Keeps the
Score and a lot of the othertrauma practitioners that are
talking about.
Even if we talk about thesethings and process them, our
bodies hold on to them andthere's, I think, a movement
toward needing something beyondjust talk therapy to process
(17:25):
some of this, and I've even donesome EMDR myself.
That's something I wouldrecommend to people as well.
Which, when I was in socialwork school was brand new, but
now there's been a ton ofresearch on.
That really helps with PTSD.
Because that was a reality forme was being at these, some of
these gruesome sites and justnot knowing how to process them.
(17:46):
And we didn't have it.
We didn't have a chaplain, wedidn't have psychologists or
anyone to even normalize it, tosay, yeah, this is a lot and
there was very much this cultureof you just move on, you don't
really let it get to you.
And, yeah, some of the harderones for me I struggle with.
(18:06):
I'm like, oh, I don't even wantto go into too much detail
because your listeners may betraumatized by it, but I trust
that they'll know how to carefor themselves.
But I lived in a town that hada train station, train tracks,
and unfortunately we had anumber of usually young people
(18:27):
that would want to die bysuicide on the tracks and then
we would get called into that toreally do some cleanup and
trying to be reverent in the waythat we did that.
But it was gruesome.
And there's things now like Ican't watch horror movies or
anything that has a lot ofphysical violence in it.
(18:49):
Especially we see a lot ofgunshots of victims in our
trauma bay and I'm like no, Ican't do it, and my husband
knows I can't do any sort of warmovie or anything like that
because seeing what that does inreal life I have no interest in
watching it on the screen.
So I think from getting involvedin that at a young age really
(19:10):
sensitized me to what people gothrough and it comes out in
funny ways now, because it'salways been in the work that
I've done, that I forget.
Oh, this isn't normal for otherpeople to have experienced this
much.
So, for instance, I trainchaplain interns and people that
(19:30):
are wanting to do this work.
So sometimes it's seminarystudents or sometimes it's
clergy who are wanting to becomemore effective in their
spiritual caregiving moreeffective in their spiritual
caregiving.
And one day I scheduled it wasan orientation week for our new
interns or residents and Ischeduled a visit to the morgue
because we sometimes have to domorgue visits, so I wanted them
to be able to see it before theyhad to go down there with the
family.
(19:51):
And I did it right before lunchand I wasn't thinking, they all
went off their lunch.
They said, oh my gosh, how canyou expect us to eat now,
christine?
I was like, oh, I've just grownup with dead bodies.
It didn't occur to me that thiswas something that was so now
I'm very cautious and carefulabout when I schedule that and
we have a debriefing sessionafterwards, or so really trying
to recognize this is noteveryone's experience.
(20:12):
It helped me, I think,tremendously to be able to work
in healthcare and do the workthat I do with death and with
education.
So I'm grateful for it.
I wouldn't change it, but I dohave to try to make sure I'm
seeking out joy tocounterbalance some of the
intensity of the experience aswell.
John Moir (20:30):
Yeah, I'm still curious.
If you just step back, Iimagine you're an older teenager
and I don't know what yourchildhood was like growing up,
but I would think that many ofus were somewhat protected.
We didn't see a lot of traumaat all, other than maybe cut
fingers, stubbed toes andabrasion on our knees.
But those pivotal,life-changing events to show up
(20:56):
at a scene like that and it'syour responsibility now to jump
in at less than 20, how old yourage was, we can figure you got
to be around 18 at least, yeah,yeah and to take that
responsibility on, and I can'timagine that it didn't affect
you deeply at that time.
Chris Wasko (21:17):
I was actually 16 when I first got licensed and
did my training.
When I went through it, I wasthe youngest one in my state to
have ever done it, because theyjust changed, I think, the age
limits.
I do think it was certainlyinstrumental in terms of what I
(21:39):
do now, because I saw thevulnerability that people were
going through and really beingin touch with a sense of
mortality which, especially as ateenager, it's quite easy to
feel invincible, but being insituations where it was part of
(22:02):
the lived experience, I thinkone of the ways that it changed
me was, I just expected thegrief or the loss.
So, for instance, an experienceI had 16 years later when I had
a series of miscarriages that Iwent through about six in total
the first one.
I remember just thinking, oh,that makes sense.
(22:23):
Of course I was devastated byit, but I also wasn't surprised
the way that a lot of my otherfriends were surprised when they
were going through the samething.
They're like, oh, I can'tbelieve, I never thought that
this could happen to me.
I said, oh, I never thought itcould happen to me, it could not
happen to me.
I said, oh, I never thought itcould happen to me, it could not
(22:46):
happen to me.
So I think it was just seeingsuffering all around made me
recognize just how universal itis.
And for me it is also pairedwith my spirituality because,
going back to that early beliefof feeling that God wanted me to
help people, part of what I seeas that help is being with
people on the worst day of theirlives.
I sometimes joke with friends ofmine who are church ministers
(23:10):
because they say I don't knowhow you could do what you do for
a living.
I say I couldn't do what you do.
I couldn't deal with thepolitics of where we're putting
the parking lot or people givingyou feedback about the sermons.
I can't deal with that.
I feel like I can only do theintensity, and to me that's what
matters most.
Everything else goes away.
It's a bit like some people saythey can't do small talk, they
(23:33):
can only have really intenseconversations.
They don't have the patiencefor the small talk, and yeah, so
for me it's really meaningfulto be there with people at the
end of their lives or peoplethat are just going through
intense spiritual distress, totry to help them to know that
they're not alone in it.
John Moir (23:51):
Just one more question and I'll step away from
your early years.
Chris Wasko (23:55):
It's great.
I haven't thought about some ofthem in years.
John Moir (23:57):
Yeah, I found for me there was a hardening place at
the very beginning yes, From myfirst highway trauma.
I was working with an olderfellow and I just remember this
flush going up my body and downand I was feeling proud that I
can toughen this out.
This young lady was dead at thescenes.
We had to wait for theundertakers to come and recover
(24:21):
the body and the coroner hadalready pronounced her, so we
just had to wait and we justhelped to clean up a little bit.
But the next night we had aparty and I wasn't a drinker at
all, but I sure passed my limit.
It was so unusual for me to dothat, and then throughout those
early years you bounce back andforth through that from being it
(24:44):
was mostly a male dominantenvironment at that time and you
emulate all these old pros thatI've been on here forever.
And then something takes placein us that I don't want to say
it's a softening, but I think,as you described it, there's a
different kind of perspectivetakes hold and you realize that
(25:04):
all of us are on a differentpath, and for me it sounds a bit
like you as well, that whatstoked my passion was bringing
order to chaos chaos I felt thatwas a role that I could play
because at that time, because ofall the trauma grief that I
experienced beforehand, gave mea sense of control.
(25:27):
Because, that's how, when youhave so much, you don't want
anybody to know that you arecarrying this grief or this
shame around.
So it's all about control and Ifind that a lot of medics the
good ones, these present thatway and then eventually you get
older and then you have to cometo terms with a lot of this what
we see, people, we see thingsthat we shouldn't have to see,
(25:51):
but somebody because it's notnormal seeing people in this way
, but to bring our strengths tothat person and their families
and also to not just spiritually, physically, mentally to be a
big help to them, is verytransformative for us.
(26:12):
And so that's like my process,and how much do you think that
that changed you?
Because you didn't go into thechurch right away, as a teenager
.
Chris Wasko (26:24):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I think that's such a profoundjourney and I love how you
articulate it this hardening andthen a softening and I
definitely learned the hardeningwhen I first started.
I joke, that's where I learnedall the dirty jokes and all the
curse words that you wouldn'texpect a Presbyterian minister
to know.
I learned it from hanging outwith uh, with folks at the
(26:46):
rescue building and also thegallows humor right the ways,
yes, yes, very dark humor whichstill exists in.
I still see it all the time inour emergency room in particular
, and that's something else thatmy students really struggle
with.
They're like, oh, this isterribly irreverent and you have
to be able to understand wherepeople are coming from and that
(27:08):
this is a coping mechanism.
It's a strange one, but it is away of taking some of the
pressure off and really turningthat release valve a little bit.
Now we want to make sure thatfamilies aren't hearing any of
this, and so I've had to havesome of those conversations with
family right outside and peopleare joking in this way, but to
(27:28):
me it's one of the ways that wecan keep doing this work is
having to find our own way ofprocessing it, even if it sounds
like that.
Yeah, and I was involved in thechurch the same time that I was
doing the EMT work, but when Iwas in seminary it was when I
stopped, because they make youlearn a lot in seminary, so
(27:51):
that's when I stoppedparticipating and riding in the
backs of ambulances.
But now I find that gives methat credentialing when I am
talking to our EMTs or ourdispatchers, because at first
they don't really want to talkto me.
I'm like, oh no, I was, I wasan EMT too.
And then, oh okay, then you getit, then they'll talk to me,
(28:13):
because I think we want to beknown and we don't want this
outsider.
We want someone thatunderstands what we go through
on the regular to be able totalk to us and I find that true
throughout the hospital.
Actually we have a terrific EAPprogram or employee assistance
program, and they'll come in anddo debriefs with staff
especially.
(28:34):
We do a lot of them after someof the intense trauma situations
that we have.
But oftentimes they call meinstead.
They say we don't want EAP.
We know you.
We want one of our chaplains tolead it and sometimes I say I
can't.
I was in it, I can't do that,someone else has to come in.
But I think that it's certainlya compliment to see the value
(28:55):
of bringing in the spiritualcomponent but also bringing in
the familiarity of all being init together.
John Moir (29:01):
Do you have a particular technique or practice
that you apply to those who arestruggling with loss?
Chris Wasko (29:11):
It depends so much on what is the loss, right, and
who is the individual and who isthe individual?
So sometimes it's aboutidentifying what the loss is and
naming the loss.
So certainly a lot of what wedo and what your listeners are
familiar with is relationshiploss.
(29:32):
So it is around the death ofthe individual, and certainly so
for people that just lost theirloved one, it's obvious what
they are grieving For.
(29:57):
Some of our practitioners sayso.
If I'm working with the nursesor the doctors after there's
been a death, they don't havethe same relationship to that
person as that person's spousewould have.
So it's not necessarily therelationship that they're
grieving in the same way, butthere's other losses that can be
brought up for that.
So sometimes it's thecumulative loss that we were
talking about before.
It's like the sheer number oftimes that they've had to try to
resuscitate someone, even thatweek, right, and so that's
what's going on for them.
Sometimes it's they just had aloved one in their life die, and
(30:21):
so this is going to feel adifferent way.
One that is often very difficultfor healthcare staff to process
are younger individuals,individuals in their 20s and 30s
, because it is, I think, areminder of people's own
mortality, and then the otherones that are hard, of course,
are children, but reallypreventable deaths.
(30:42):
So things that could have beenavoided, such as drownings, such
as accidents and things of thisnature, because that brings up
people's belief in that orderingof the system and the universe
that we talked about before.
Why is this happening?
And really, looking at thosedeep philosophical and
(31:03):
theological questions, onepatient death can bring about so
many different losses for anindividual as the healthcare
practitioner, so we really startby naming that and
acknowledging what's going onChristine.
John Moir (31:19):
How do you support people, uh, who has great fear
of death?
Chris Wasko (31:23):
We explore it, I might say tell me more about it.
What is the fear?
And those are conversationsI've had a number of times, and
so for some people, the fear isnot knowing what's on, what's
going to be on the other side ofdeath, and I wish I knew, I
wish I had the answers forpeople, because they ask me all
the time and I don't know.
(31:44):
And that's where we explore.
Okay, what do you think itmight be for that particular
individual?
Another fear that people comeup with around death is pain.
So they really fear thatthey're going to be in pain,
especially if they know thattheir death is more imminent.
And so that's a conversationthat we bring in the medical
(32:06):
team on to say, okay, this is avalid fear.
How might we acknowledge this?
For you?
I think the biggest fear that Ihear expressed is fear of
leaving one's family behind, andit's really sadness, right, the
sadness that is there and thegrief that is there from that
individual voicing that, and sobeing present with them and
hearing them talk about it andthen sometimes we will do it is
(32:29):
different and there's.
I should have prefaced this bysaying there's all different
types of death, right, so we'vebeen talking a little bit more
about the crisis death, which wedo a lot of in the hospital,
but there's also death wherepeople know when it's gonna be
happening or when someone is atthe end of their life, and they
can do a little bit morepreparation for that.
So not everyone does come to aplace of accepting their own
death.
And I will say the last dynamicthat I see a lot of is the
(32:52):
patient is ready for death andreally accepting of it,
especially if it has been apainful journey and for them
this is going to be, a relief,but the family is not.
And I understand that the familythey want to hold on to their
loved one for as long aspossible.
And so I hear patients, andthis is sometimes why I try to
talk to patients individually,without their family's presence.
(33:13):
I'll do both, but I want tomake sure that I'm able to get
the full story, because thepatient will say to me like oh,
everyone tells me I just have tokeep fighting and be strong and
I don't want to do that anymore, like I'm ready, I'm done, but
they're not listening and theytell me not to say that and not
to think like that.
And so then it's really gettingto be the person that they say
that out loud to, becausethere's no one else that is
(33:34):
going to listen to them, becausethey have different motive,
right, the family, of course, isgoing through their own
different griefs.
John Moir (33:40):
I have a dear friend who's a retired Anglican priest
and we're talking about a death.
This is going back a couple ofyears now, and what surprised me
was you said that the membersof her church were losing faith
in their belief as their time ofdeath neared.
What's your thoughts on that?
Chris Wasko (33:57):
Yeah, it varies to individuals.
For sure, I probably hear moreof that as a hospital chaplain
than their clergy may hear,because I have the anonymity
that is attached to me versustheir clergy.
A lot of times patients will,because I may ask them have you
talked about this with anyone?
Especially if I know that theyare a congregant somewhere.
(34:19):
They'll say no because I don'twant, because they believe it's
blasphemous or they don't wanttheir clergy person to know that
they're struggling in this wayyeah, it's often how I hear it
expressed is frustration atunanswered prayer comes across
quite a bit Like I've beenpraying to get better and it's
(34:41):
not happening, which I think,then, is also frustration at God
.
So that is probably one of thebiggest things I hear in the
hospital in general.
So it could be an end of life,but it could be really.
Any part of one's journey isanger at God, and a way in which
I think it comes out a lot isespecially as it relates to.
(35:01):
One of my pet peeves as ahospital chaplain is the use of
what I call religious platitudes.
So you'll be familiar with theseand I'm sure your listeners
will know them, these toxicspirituality, positivity sayings
that are not even biblical, butthey've made their way into our
cultural lexicon.
So things like God neededanother angel, or everything
(35:26):
happens for a reason, or justlet go and let God, or God never
gives you more than you canhandle.
So these things that are meantto inspire people but really do
the opposite, they can cause alot of spiritual harm.
And so I'm usually on theopposite end of that when I'm
with people.
They've been told these thingslike you just have to have faith
(35:46):
, and then they said the faithisn't working for me, like I'm
not getting better, I'm notgetting what I want, and so then
they believe that their faithisn't strong enough or they do
have this anger at God, becauseif you're told God never gives
you more than he can handle, butthen you're given quite a bit,
(36:07):
of course you're going to thinkGod's a jerk if that's the case
or really quite evil andmaleficent.
So I certainly encourage a lotof people that I talk to not to
say those things.
I think we say them thinkingthat we're helping, but we're
actually doing a lot of harmbecause they become internalized
from when people are gettingthose and they really silence
the experience to what someoneis going through.
John Moir (36:23):
Okay, so what would be some spiritual practices you
could recommend for someone witha hectic schedule who struggles
to find the time for?
Chris Wasko (36:33):
themselves.
That's a great question, soI'll give you some really
specific and simple things totry, knowing that it's not going
to be the same for everyone.
So some people, a spiritualpractice might really work for
them.
For others that might not bethe one.
But one thing I would recommendis you take a five-minute walk
(36:54):
outside and don't be listeningto anything on your phone, just
really trying to, even if you'rein a city and there may not be
a lot of greenery around you,just noticing the wind on your
face or the sun warming you,even the other people that you
might encounter walking by.
Just trying to take five minutesand say I'm just going to go
(37:15):
for a walk and see what happens,even if you're walking to your
car from the grocery storeparking lots, doing so to be
able to just take a deep breathas you're going in and having
some mindfulness in that moment.
Another practice that I thinkcan be helpful for people is a
version of a gratitude practice,and they have apps for this if
(37:37):
people are interested in thatsort of thing, but you can just
do it by writing something downor writing something in your
phone.
I've gone through periods whereI like to write down either one
or three small things thatyou're grateful for that day.
And I'm not talking about thebig things like, oh, my health,
my family, my house, all thoseare well and good and it's
helpful to have that, but I'mlooking for micro gratitudes.
(38:00):
What are the very small thingsthat you were grateful for in
that moment, because that canreally shift our mindset.
So it may be something assimple as today.
I am grateful that I got towork on time, when I'm usually
sitting in traffic.
Or I'm grateful that thisconversation with a coworker
went better than I thought itwas going to go.
(38:22):
Or I'm grateful that that billthat came in the mail was a
little bit lower than what Ithought it would be, or I'm
grateful that that bill thatcame in the mail was a little
bit lower than what I thought itwould be.
I'm grateful for how nutty mygranola tasted when I made it.
Really looking for small things,because that is the art of
noticing, and when we aregrateful for the small things,
that can help us to be gratefulfor the larger things too.
(38:42):
And I'm not talking aboutgratitude at the exclusion of
the suffering, because I'm nottalking about gratitude at the
exclusion of the suffering,because I'm not saying focus on
only the good.
I'm saying no, even in thesuffering there can be small
things that you're grateful for,and so really trying to hold
those two in tension.
John Moir (38:59):
Thank you for joining us on this episode with
Christine Waskell.
We hope her journey from EMT tochaplain has inspired you and
provided new perspectives onnavigating trauma, PTSD and the
power of compassionate healing.
Christine's story is atestament to the strength of the
human spirit and the profoundimpact of empathy and connection
(39:20):
in the face of suffering.
If you found value in today'sepisode, please share it with
others who might benefit fromChristine's insight, and don't
forget to subscribe to ourpodcasts.
Until next time, remember totake care of yourselves and each
other, finding moments ofmindfulness and compassion in
your everyday lives.
Thank you for listening.
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