February 24, 2024 • 40 mins
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This compelling episode delves into the seldom-discussed realm of men’s grief and the cultural silence around their emotional expressions. Our guest, Carl Rabke, a seasoned practitioner in somatics, embodiment work, and grief rituals, shares his profound insights into the intersections of physical embodiment and soul work. Through his journey of healing and discovery, Carl illuminates the transformative power of embracing vulnerability and the deep healing that arises from integrating body and soul practices.
Our conversation explores the pivotal moments that led Carl to his work, including his own experiences of injury and the realization of the need for a radical shift toward self-awareness and embodiment. Drawing on the wisdom of mentors like Francis Weller and the influence of seminal texts such as “Women Who Run With the Wolves” and “Iron John,” Carl discusses the vital role of grief work in men’s lives and the societal barriers that often silence their emotional experiences.
Guest Bio
Carl Rabke is a Somatic Naturalist, an Embodiment teacher, and a tender of soul and living culture. For the last 25 years, he has practiced and taught where the streams of somatics, soul-work, and a deep love of this living Earth meet. He is a Feldenkrais and Structural Integration practitioner and loves to support people in returning to and remembering our natural, inherent intelligence in movement, meditation, ritual, song, rhythm and community. He also hosts the Embodiment Matters Podcast with his beloved wife, Erin. View Carl’s website here.
Links to additional resources
●Women Who Run With the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype, Clarissa Pinkola Estes View here
●Iron John: A Book About Men, Robert Bly View here
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At Soulful Energy Medicine, I help you release energetic blocks, clear emotional pain, and reconnect with your true self. You’ll find a safe, grounded space for soul-level transformation through virtual healing sessions.
✨ Book your free discovery call: Soulful Energy Medicine
Foundation for Shamanic Studies: Explore here
“The Way of the Shaman” book by Michael Harner
Society for Shamanic Practice: Explore here
Connect
John@urbangriefshamans.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John (00:01):
Medicine burns when touched by fire.
The smoke curls and spiralsupward and plumes of it rising,
swirling and pushing themselvesin ribbons Higher and higher,
until the smell of it becomesthe ancient aroma of blessing,
teaching and communion.
Within its fragrant cloud, youcan feel peace descend upon you.
(00:25):
There is spirit here.
You can feel it if you allow it.
That is the heart of theteaching, the allowing Welcome
to the Urban Grief.
Showman's Grief protests andstirs within us a profound
defiance against living a lifefilled with numbness.
It emboldens wildness like athunderstorm, untamed and as we
(00:51):
learn, grief is the primeemotion for the soul's vitality.
Contrary to common belief,grief is teeming with life.
It resists being gentle and yetmoves us so passionately.
There can be no doubt thisemotion springs forth from the
wells of the soul.
In our podcast, we will explorethis defiance, embrace its
(01:14):
wildness and find peace withinits untamed vitality as we live
in the hustle of everyday life.
Dr Patricia Jones is apsychotherapist and John Warrior
a retired paramedic.
As we explore the spiritualside of grief, welcome to a
journey of exploration andunderstanding as we delve into
(01:36):
the depths of the human heartand soul.
Today's episode invites us intothe world of men's grief, a
topic often shrouded in silenceand societal expectation.
Our special guest, carl Rabke,brings a wealth of knowledge
from the realms of somatics,embodiment and soul work,
offering us a unique perspectiveon the transformative power of
(01:57):
vulnerability.
Through his personal story andyears of facilitating grief
ritual, carl sheds light on thepaths that lead men through the
shadows of grief towards healingand connection.
As we navigate this conversation, we uncover the barriers that
keep men's voices quiet in theirsorrow and the profound impact
of creating spaces where theirgrief can be expressed and
(02:20):
witnessed.
So join us as we embark on thisdeeply moving exploration,
aiming to bring awareness,compassion and a new
understanding of the silentgrief carried by many.
So, together, let's open ourhearts to the unspoken stories
of loss, transformation and theresilience of the human spirit.
Joining me today is Carl Rabke,an extraordinary person I had
(02:45):
the pleasure of meeting at agrief workshop led by Francis
Wellard just recently.
Our conversation today centerson a pressing question in
discussions surrounding griefand spiritual growth why do we
hear so few men's voices?
So let's begin.
Carl, would you kindlyintroduce yourself?
Carl Rabke (03:05):
Yeah, by way of introduction, I do a lot in
terms of work in the world.
I follow these winding threadsof somatics and embodiment work
and movement and soul work,grief rituals and men's work,
and for me they're the samething.
As Michael Meade likes to say,the primary movements of soul
(03:29):
are slow and down and it's oftenthe same thing with our
embodied presence.
To return to our embodiment itrequires a slowing down and
dropping in and back from thekind of up and out and speed of
modern culture.
So I find that to really helpeach other.
(03:49):
A lot of times in witnessingembodiment and movement
communities I sense that theycould use a little bit more soul
and in being in soulfulcommunities sometimes they could
use a little bit moreembodiment to really be with the
felt reality of what they'reworking with.
So that's something that I'vedone for many years and also
(04:11):
followed similar paths with mywife Erin.
We teach together and host apodcast together.
That's how I got to this momentof sitting here talking with
you, john.
John (04:23):
How did you come across this movement?
Carl Rabke (04:25):
So I was like many of us.
I was pretty disembodied.
I was also active.
I was athletic, I playedlacrosse, but I would use my
body as an object and wasn'treally sensing myself.
And I got pretty injured playingthat sport in college and wound
up having back surgery at theage of 21 and spent most of my
college years with ongoingchronic pain.
(04:48):
And I always say that I'mgrateful to my 21-year-old self
because the moment I came out ofanesthesia from the surgery and
felt the nerve pain gone, therewas this recognition that if I
didn't have some sort of radicalreorientation that I'd be back
in that same situation.
So it really caused me to lookat how I was relating to my body
(05:10):
, which was how I was relatingto life itself From.
Shortly after that, I movedwhere I was living in Cape Cod,
massachusetts, us, and then Imoved out to the mountains of
Utah and came across all thesedifferent teachers.
I started practicing martialarts and yoga and met a
(05:30):
meditation teacher who workedwith the practice as a real
somatic, embodied practice.
And then I just followed thethread of massage school and
roughing training andFeldenkrais, which is another
kind of movement awarenessmodality.
John (05:47):
Was this where you were first ran, introduced to your
mentors?
Carl Rabke (05:51):
Yeah, I'd say most of them came in moving out west,
although certain seeds wereplanted.
I actually remember the firstbook I read in Utah was Clarissa
Finchola Estes as Woman who Runwith the Wolves.
John (06:05):
Oh yeah.
Carl Rabke (06:06):
And I was introduced to my dad's copy of Iron John
and just devoured that book andthat really opened up this whole
realm of the mythopoetic andmen's work.
So those seeds were starting tocome earlier.
John (06:24):
And then you met Erin when you were out west.
Carl Rabke (06:27):
Yes.
John (06:27):
Was she a big influence in your development?
Carl Rabke (06:30):
Yeah, I think we both have influenced each other
significantly and we resonatewith the same kind of essential
frequency of what lights us upabout Buddhism and the Dharma
and what lights us up about deepecology and soul work and work
with grief and.
(06:50):
Joanna Macy's work thatreconnects.
So we follow our own threads,but we also really have this
central refuge connected tofreedom and also connected to
meeting the great challenges ofthese times and the times we're
living in and the times that arecoming.
So I think each of us feel verygrateful to have each other to
(07:15):
bounce ideas off and to beinspired and to teach and hold
space together.
John (07:20):
When did you come?
Carl Rabke (07:20):
across Weller.
We came across Francis Wellerin the Sun article.
How a lot of people wereintroduced to him.
It was shortly after the WildEdge of Sorrow came out and
actually Erin had, through ajourney, had some specific
instructions to work with,holding space for grief and she
(07:41):
realized she had no idea how todo that.
So she reached out to Francisand started doing some mentoring
with him and then I startedmentoring with him as well and,
yeah, that was that.
We've really both appreciatedhim as a mentor and friend and
they're such a beautiful body ofwork that he has cultivated
(08:06):
around both work with grief andloss, but also in looking at
what it is helps people ripeninto adults and the community
building and village growingwork that he was so deeply
influenced by Maladoma Somay,his friend taught alongside for
several years and we're verygrateful to help hold community
(08:31):
with Francis.
John (08:32):
I remember when I started to read Weller's book and Carl,
it was just overwhelmed me withFrancis' soulful language.
It was such a light for me.
I can't see enough aboutWeller's work.
Carl Rabke (08:44):
One of those books.
It's probably one of the onesI've given away more.
We have so many copies thatwe're constantly just passing
out because it is really alife-changing book and,
interestingly enough, somethingin the fields, because the year
that Francis' book came out wasall that.
Stephen Jenkinson had a bookcoming out Working with Grief
(09:06):
and Martin Prattell also had abook coming out around grief and
praise.
Oh yeah.
And I always am fascinating whendifferent movements come up.
It's like something just neededto be, like grief was calling
out to humanity to tend to itthrough these beings who were
listening and who could eachwrite so eloquently on the topic
(09:28):
.
John (09:30):
For sure.
Yeah, that was die-wise, was itJenkinson and Prattell's?
Carl Rabke (09:36):
The smell dust.
John (09:37):
That's right, the rain and dust.
So did you have much of ahistory with your own grief.
You can imagine any of us getto a certain age and we're not
touched by it.
Carl Rabke (09:50):
Yeah, I was really moved.
Stephen Levine, stephen andAndrea they were early
influencers for me on talkingabout grief and talking about
grief in the body, both FrancisWeller and Michael Meade.
Many teachers talk about thisspirit, soul continuum.
This spirit has a tendencytoward rising and ascension and
(10:14):
oneness, whereas soul hastendency downward, toward
rootedness and entanglement, andthe dark, modern, dominant
North American culture tends tomove in the direction of spirit.
Oneness always on the up and up.
Ascension is a lot.
Down equals bad, dark equalsbad in our language.
(10:36):
And so I went in my early 20s,I got pretty heavily into
Buddhist practice, I'd say Iwent in that direction of spirit
and noticed that I had kept meat a distance from grief because
there was a sense of it'simpermanent cause of suffering
(10:58):
and there would be almost likethis kind of witnessing but not
really being touched.
And it was actually a moment Ihad a very specific moment in
when my son, who's now 13, whenhe was born and I caught him
interestingly in our littlemeditation room we had a
birthing tub set up.
John (11:20):
There was a oh beautiful.
Carl Rabke (11:22):
And so I caught him and there was just a well that
broke and I just wept like I hadnever wept before in my life
and that cracked throughsomething that then has stayed
open in me.
So I'm very grateful for thatcatalyst moment.
John (11:40):
Carl, you know your story just brought back a memory for
me my parents.
They divorced early in my lifeand through my early years I
never really knew my father.
I was essentially raised in amatriarchal family.
Years pass, I married and myfirstborn was a daughter.
Several years later we wereblessed with a son.
I was elated to have twobeautiful children and, unknown
(12:05):
to me, it would soon enough be asecond son.
I don't remember when thishappened, but I realized that I
did know how to raise a boy.
And then a slow growingdepression settled into my life
and my love for my childrenwasn't affected, but rather it
was an internal struggle thatwas awakening from having a son.
Carl Rabke (12:28):
Yeah, it's an interesting place we are,
because I think many men haveforgotten how to be with other
men and that's part of what Ithink the response to the men's
movement in the late 80s and 90swith James Hillman and Michael
(12:48):
V and Robert Bly, this sense ofmen being together, not in
business competition, but reallycoming together in a soulful
way with poetry and music andritual and starting to almost
rehydrate those seeds of menthat have been as long as our
(13:12):
species has been on this planet.
There have been initiations andgathering and such profound
nourishment that comes, deepfriendship and connection with
other men, and there just aren'tthose contexts in modern life
for many of us Going out to abar or going to watch a game
(13:33):
together or something, doesn'talways get to that the same
depth that would come throughdoing an initiation for the
young boys coming out forreturning from a hunting
gathering or something like that.
John (13:50):
Yeah, the lack of ritual for young men yeah.
Carl Rabke (13:54):
I think since having rights of passing and just
having a sacredness toacknowledge transitions in life
has been lost for children ofall genders, there's not that
sense of something ending.
And now you're stepping intosomething, a new identity, with
the blessings of these wiseelders who are looking at you
(14:17):
and recognizing what yourmedicine is and what sort of
spark you're carrying andfeeding that in some way we have
much more of a culture ofconformity and just things
influenced by your value being,what you can produce or the kind
of career you have, or thosesorts of things.
John (14:41):
Yeah, and I suppose I was just thinking of my own
profession being in EMS, andit's one of certain years of
service and it probably was oneof the best things that happened
to me was working in EMS forsuch a long time.
That's such a so many positiveinfluences on my life, but at
(15:01):
the same time, the idea of beingany kind of weakness was the
guys wouldn't show it, and Iguess the last 20 years more
women have come into theprofession than the last service
I was with I think we're at 52%of our population were women,
which I think was the best thingthat ever happened to that job
(15:23):
was that now we're gettingsomething different.
We're getting more of thenurturing influence as opposed
to being tough, and I know a lotof guys at the time.
I always thought they'd beenwatching way too many police
shows because they were actinglike that, but that's not the
job.
So, hinderinzen, I guess thatjust made it hard.
Iron John Bligh talks about thewho and the mother and the
(15:49):
influence of that.
Carl Rabke (15:50):
And.
John (15:50):
I'd have to say that I certainly experienced that as a
child, reinforcing themasculinity or what was thought
of being strong didn't work sowell for me.
Carl Rabke (16:01):
Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of unhelpful cultural
messages around what it is to bea man, and I think that's when
you ask about where have all themen gone in grief circles.
It's that sort of thing,because grief does require a
certain being cracked open, acertain vulnerability, a certain
(16:21):
lack of functionality and, asMartin Prectell says, like when
you grieve you should look bad,should really have an effect on
you and in terms of that spirit,soul, commute, continuum.
It's not about getting stronger, faster, better, exceeding
grief.
It's something where you aretaken down.
(16:43):
It's one of the things thatFrancis talks about grief as
being this kind of revolutionarea emotion, because it will
not adhere to the demands ofproductivity, it will not adhere
to capitalism.
Reef is its own wild presence.
John (17:03):
Yes, yeah, the book grieving beyond, jen Dokan
Martin.
They talk about basically twotypes of patterns of grieving.
One is intuitive, where it'sthe affect, the emotional aspect
of it, and then the other endof the spectrum.
They talk about beinginstrumental, where it's grief
is experienced physically, suchas restlessness and cognition.
(17:26):
They talk about it.
And so that's where they saythat the men lie.
Is that it's not that theydon't grieve, they argue that
it's the.
They gave an example of one manwho was grieving on the loss of
his daughter and the wife wasobviously very distraught
through her grief, but he builta stone head for the grief and
(17:50):
for him that was using his handsand putting everything that he
had into the creation of thistombstone that I assume was just
a work of art.
I was hoping, well, we would getan opportunity to talk a little
bit about where have all themale voices gone?
Any thoughts, yeah?
Carl Rabke (18:09):
I think there are movements, like when my dear
colleague Alexander and I arehosting a men's group for Shul
this coming weekend and it'sfilled with men who are eager to
be in that space, and I find itto be quite a fruitful space
when men can gather in that way,and part of it is to look at
(18:30):
what are the obstacles we faceto grieving as men and some of
those things we talked about theneeding to fall off the horse,
so to speak, and be taken down.
Sometimes, gregory, and also Ithink many men are conditioned
to be more comfortable withanger, with depression, then
(18:51):
grief, so grief can often bemasked.
And then what's under thehyperact?
The hyperperformance is sometender young boy in there and
how to get what's.
What can be under the way.
That grief can be pushed to theside and replaced with another
layering emotion.
That's a little more palatable.
But I do think that thatthey're out there.
John (19:15):
See if you have a lot showing up at your place, you've
been able to make them feelsafe.
What kind of messaging are yougiving them?
Carl Rabke (19:22):
Yeah, I think it's authenticity is a big one, that
there's no performative qualityto it, and that, alexander and I
this is just how we live we'reshowing up as ordinary men who
have learned some things aboutmaking space to tend to sorrow
(19:43):
and tend to loss and to be incommunity with other men and to
have a space that is both sacredbut also just very ordinary.
To think that we need to betaught how to grieve is so
symptomatic of the problem,because it's really one of the
most common thread that linkseveryone, across gender, across
(20:08):
cultures.
Everyone knows loss and deathand illness and disappointment,
and though that's usually whatwe try to keep tidy and away
from other people, or that mentry to keep tidy and don't bring
, but it's what unites us.
Often we'll start a griefcircle just by going around the
(20:30):
room and each person introducingthemselves with just one thread
of grief they're carrying, andit can be much more so.
Now the grief is coming for theclimate and the world, not just
personal grief around my motheror relationships or things like
that, but this sense of what'sreally moving people is the
(20:52):
place we've gotten to in theplanet, or an extinction.
But when you hear a room, it'sone of the greatest just instant
drops into intimacy and intoreligion, because if you hear 20
people each share a grief,there's always going to be some
thread of oh yeah, I'm holdingsome aspect of that.
(21:14):
Oh, I feel I wasn't even awarethat there's something that is
holding that grief for thatsorrow, and so it is something
that just can bring us together.
John (21:27):
Yeah, I've never seen a room that jails quicker than
when you have people sharingtheir grief story or, as you say
, an aspect of it, and the oh,what is it?
I don't know it's that theytalk about.
Some people talk aboutconvergence of the hearts.
That energy just seems to goaround the circle and something
(21:47):
spiritually takes place.
Carl Rabke (21:51):
Yeah, I would say it one.
It just cuts through all thebullshit, gets you to what's
real Under all the pretense orall of the ways that we can show
up, whether it's man or a mixedroom, but it gets us what's
real under there.
And also, I think Francis Wellerhas this beautiful line of the
(22:13):
task of a mature human being isto hold in one hand and grief in
the other and be stretchedlarger by them, and when we can
really enter the grief and theloss and the sorrow, it opens a
space to experience much morevividness in our joy and our
(22:35):
gratitude and our appreciation,and so it stretches the capacity
of the heart to really betouched by life, rather than a
sort of numbed out middle rangethat many people are living in,
where you don't get too affectedby your grief, you also don't
get too affected by your joy andappreciation, and there's just
(23:00):
this sort of going through themotions.
And so I think it opens us upand that, for me, also ties into
the somatic piece of our bodilyhabits, because many of the
having done hands on work withpeople and taught movement for
many years, many of our bodilytension patterns are connected
(23:21):
to the grief and loss that wecarry and tension has.
There's a relationship betweenour relaxation and our capacity
to feel, and when we softentension we're going to feel more
.
And we're not just going tofeel the good things more, but
we will feel the whole range ofhuman experience, which is why
(23:43):
people tend to keep tension andkeep such a fast pace, because
if we actually slow down, softenand feel, we're going to feel
everything that is undigested interms of grief and loss in
ourselves and in the world willalso be touched by the beauty
(24:04):
and the wonder and the awe thatisn't felt.
So for me, there's a strongconnection between what's
happening in our body and whatwe have access to around, both
grief and gratitude, and joy, orthe whole spectrum of emotional
life.
John (24:20):
CB.
So you introduce the men inyour circle to the somatic
exercises.
Carl Rabke (24:25):
DG.
Yeah, we do work around breath,freeing restrictions and the
breath because that's connectedto particularly places through
the torso where the feeling lifetends to exist more.
So in the neck, in the chest, inthe belly, in the base of the
pelvis, where a lot of peoplehave pockets of numbness or just
(24:46):
don't feel a whole lot.
So it's like we work withmovement lessons to peel off
layers of the onion so thatinner space can be more
accessible and again that we canshed some of the armoring.
And sometimes it takes a littlebit, it might not happen on the
first gathering, but to startto, even if you can soften just
(25:08):
a little bit, it makes adifference and grief works in a
group.
If one person gets cracked opento access something they
weren't able to feel before, weshare a field, so that's
bringing grief as an individualprocess.
But when one person grievesdeeply, we all those who witness
(25:29):
also are part of it, and that'sanother thing about grief
ritual because people can havepressure on themselves.
I hope I am able to accesssomething, but sometimes your
role is just to witness, just tobe there Every person and say I
see you and there's the benefitof that and that's something
(25:51):
I've really learned to trust.
And Francis Weller has said hisfirst at least five or six
grief rituals he attended therewere no tears that he hadn't
accessed that, but he just youstay in the container and it
starts to work on.
John (26:07):
I know that this is similar for myself the feeling
like, oh, not a performance, butthe idea that, well, I guess
I'll talk about this when itgets closer and you have that
opportunity to either step in ornot, all of a sudden something
else comes into the field andall of a sudden, what I thought
I was going to talk about itjust spills out in another
(26:29):
direction, completely differentthan what my intention was.
It was just like the soul justtook over and said now we're
going to talk about this today.
Carl Rabke (26:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's that wildness we were
talking about earlier to letsomething that is known
unprepared, spontaneous, comethrough.
John (26:48):
Now, is there a difference in your circles?
When there are both men andwomen present, the behaviors
change.
Or do men shy away if they knowthat women are going to be
present?
Carl Rabke (26:59):
I would say yes or no.
There's always differences.
Who shows up?
And I do think part of why Ilike to hold grief rituals
specifically for men is thatthere is a sense of maybe
they're a little more able toaccess something that they
couldn't express if their wivesor daughters or friends were in
the room, but I've also been inspaces where there's a spectrum
(27:26):
of genders and people just showup with great authenticity.
So it's really varies, but Ithink so much of it is just the
holding a container of depth andinviting people to come as they
are.
John (27:40):
Yes, you're right, being authentic is a prerequisite for
organic blooming of heartfeltstories.
I had attended a Celticworkshop this past summer with
15 people and I was the onlymale, and as we were winding
down, some of the women begansharing their stories of grief,
(28:00):
so it wasn't long before I didas well.
Several months later I began towonder so why no men?
So I turned to my shamanicfriends who teach journey skills
and inquired about the men whoshow up to their classes.
And you guessed that, incomparison to female students,
not many.
So I'm left wondering, Carl, isthere a commonality of how men
(28:26):
approach grief and spiritualdevelopment, and can you speak
to this at all?
Carl Rabke (28:32):
Yeah, I think it just takes there's a certain
vulnerability required to followany path that's going to lead
to change in transformation.
So there has to be awillingness to not know and
sometimes that can be a struggleagain for those that condition.
I got to pull myself up by mybootstraps.
(28:53):
I can take care of this, I gotit figured out.
Anything that's going to betransformational will require a
reshaping and sometimes that canbe a little bit more difficult.
But again, I see in a lot of thecircles I run in there are many
men who are just hungry forthat sort of depth and
(29:15):
connection and willingness to bereshaped.
And I've been in thesebeautiful circles in the
redwoods with Michael Mead and ahundred men of varying races
and socioeconomic backgroundsand cultures and just the depth
(29:36):
of connection and vitality thatcan come people show up at the
depths of conflict becausethere's a lot of unmetabolized
age and loss that exists too andto have a context where
disagreement can happen withoutviolence, where we can.
(29:56):
Really I always love thisdescription from Michael Mead
and it speaks a lot to whatwe're talking around grief and
transformation.
He says there are these threelevels interaction.
Level one is just surface,talking about the Super Bowl and
the weather and a surface,conventional reality, and then
(30:18):
the third level is just soulful,authentic, depth connection.
And the second level betweenthose is all of the resolved
grief and anger and loss thatexists and that you can't get to
that third level unless yousink down through that second
(30:38):
level, and that's where you havea lot of spiritual bypassing or
things like you just want toget right to the oneness or you
just want to get right to thesoulful connection, but you
actually need to go throughsomething that's pretty
difficult en route, that youneed to see what is it that's
created the disconnection andhaving spaces where we can be in
(31:00):
that second place.
There's a lot of heat there,and so fire is containment, and
so when we are able to sit inthat together, especially as men
, the richness of getting tothat authenticity of that level
three is just.
It's something that I wish forso many men to experience.
John (31:20):
I can remember holding a grief circle for women.
What made this notable was theanger that came and spread.
Every woman had experiencedsome form of abuse.
I held space while witnessingtheir anger, their grief and
their losses that they hadexperienced.
This was incredibly powerfuland, most of all, it was a
(31:42):
testament to the courage ofthese women.
Carl Rabke (31:44):
Yeah, and it's an edge because there has been and
is so much violence andobjectification against, and so
how to bear witness and also howto not equate masculinity with
toxic and I think this is achallenge for many boys growing
(32:08):
up.
We'll hear the word, probablytoxic masculinity more than they
will hear just masculine.
And again, because we don'thave these, the role models and
elders who actually model what ahealthy relationship is, what a
healthy relationship to theerotic world, what a healthy
(32:29):
relationship to power andrespect can be, there can be a
sense of I'm ashamed to be a manbecause men have caused so many
problems, and we need to liftout and look at the violence and
look at the institutionalizedmisogyny that is present in so
many places and to tune towardsomething different.
John (32:54):
One quick question, carl, before we end, because it was
mentioned.
Where would people who wantedto expand their spiritual
development or moving throughtheir grief of the different
somatic structures that areavailable?
Carl Rabke (33:10):
Where to take classes.
Yeah, we have classes that weoffer through our website,
embodimentmatterscom, but thereare lots of different somatic
modalities.
I find Resma Menekum, author ofmy Grandmother's Hands, does
some beautiful looking atembodiment and racialized trauma
(33:31):
, how it's passed down throughthe generations.
Somatic experiencing is anothermodality that helps people to
really work with embodiment ofthe Feldenkrais.
Like I mentioned earlier,that's a beautiful way to learn
to move with more ease andpresence and soften those
rigidities that keep us fromfeeling.
John (33:54):
Okay, I'll look for that and I'll put it in the show
notes when I get to dig intothat one.
But I want to offer you my deepappreciation, carl, for this
conversation.
In some ways I'm speechless,but you have such a beautiful
way of expressing.
You can see a little bit ofWeller coming out a little bit.
(34:17):
When I grew up.
I want to be like Weller.
Carl Rabke (34:22):
Yeah, me too.
I'll take that as a compliment,for sure.
John (34:25):
Yeah, I didn't even throw in a little bit of Stephen
Jenkins in the north, but anyway, thank you so much.
Carl Rabke (34:32):
Yeah, thank you very much, John.
It was a delight to talk aboutall these things we discussed
today.
John (34:37):
Yeah, well, you take care.
As we close today's episode, wecarry with us the profound
insights and heartfelt storiesshared by Carl Rabke.
His journey through griefs,embodiment and the silent
struggles of men has opened agateway to deeper understanding
and compassion.
Let's hold space for theunspoken sorrows and the
(34:58):
transformative power ofvulnerability in our lives and
communities.
Remember, healing begins withlistening, sharing and embracing
the full spectrum of our humanexperience.
So thank you for joining us onthis journey of exploration and
connection.
Until next time, may we allfind the courage to face our
(35:20):
grief with open hearts andsupport one another in our path
to healing.
We will leave you with themusic of David Celeste the Seeds
we Saw.
Thank you.
Medicine burns when touched by fire.
The smoke curls and spiralsupward and plumes of it rising,
swirling and pushing themselvesin ribbons Higher and higher,
until the smell of it becomesthe ancient aroma of blessing,
teaching and communion.
Within its fragrant cloud, youcan feel peace descend upon you.
(00:25):
There is spirit here.
You can feel it if you allow it.
That is the heart of theteaching, the allowing Welcome
to the Urban Grief.
Showman's Grief protests andstirs within us a profound
defiance against living a lifefilled with numbness.
It emboldens wildness like athunderstorm, untamed and as we
(00:51):
learn, grief is the primeemotion for the soul's vitality.
Contrary to common belief,grief is teeming with life.
It resists being gentle and yetmoves us so passionately.
There can be no doubt thisemotion springs forth from the
wells of the soul.
In our podcast, we will explorethis defiance, embrace its
(01:14):
wildness and find peace withinits untamed vitality as we live
in the hustle of everyday life.
Dr Patricia Jones is apsychotherapist and John Warrior
a retired paramedic.
As we explore the spiritualside of grief, welcome to a
journey of exploration andunderstanding as we delve into
(01:36):
the depths of the human heartand soul.
Today's episode invites us intothe world of men's grief, a
topic often shrouded in silenceand societal expectation.
Our special guest, carl Rabke,brings a wealth of knowledge
from the realms of somatics,embodiment and soul work,
offering us a unique perspectiveon the transformative power of
(01:57):
vulnerability.
Through his personal story andyears of facilitating grief
ritual, carl sheds light on thepaths that lead men through the
shadows of grief towards healingand connection.
As we navigate this conversation, we uncover the barriers that
keep men's voices quiet in theirsorrow and the profound impact
of creating spaces where theirgrief can be expressed and
(02:20):
witnessed.
So join us as we embark on thisdeeply moving exploration,
aiming to bring awareness,compassion and a new
understanding of the silentgrief carried by many.
So, together, let's open ourhearts to the unspoken stories
of loss, transformation and theresilience of the human spirit.
Joining me today is Carl Rabke,an extraordinary person I had
(02:45):
the pleasure of meeting at agrief workshop led by Francis
Wellard just recently.
Our conversation today centerson a pressing question in
discussions surrounding griefand spiritual growth why do we
hear so few men's voices?
So let's begin.
Carl, would you kindlyintroduce yourself?
Carl Rabke (03:05):
Yeah, by way of introduction, I do a lot in
terms of work in the world.
I follow these winding threadsof somatics and embodiment work
and movement and soul work,grief rituals and men's work,
and for me they're the samething.
As Michael Meade likes to say,the primary movements of soul
(03:29):
are slow and down and it's oftenthe same thing with our
embodied presence.
To return to our embodiment itrequires a slowing down and
dropping in and back from thekind of up and out and speed of
modern culture.
So I find that to really helpeach other.
(03:49):
A lot of times in witnessingembodiment and movement
communities I sense that theycould use a little bit more soul
and in being in soulfulcommunities sometimes they could
use a little bit moreembodiment to really be with the
felt reality of what they'reworking with.
So that's something that I'vedone for many years and also
(04:11):
followed similar paths with mywife Erin.
We teach together and host apodcast together.
That's how I got to this momentof sitting here talking with
you, john.
John (04:23):
How did you come across this movement?
Carl Rabke (04:25):
So I was like many of us.
I was pretty disembodied.
I was also active.
I was athletic, I playedlacrosse, but I would use my
body as an object and wasn'treally sensing myself.
And I got pretty injured playingthat sport in college and wound
up having back surgery at theage of 21 and spent most of my
college years with ongoingchronic pain.
(04:48):
And I always say that I'mgrateful to my 21-year-old self
because the moment I came out ofanesthesia from the surgery and
felt the nerve pain gone, therewas this recognition that if I
didn't have some sort of radicalreorientation that I'd be back
in that same situation.
So it really caused me to lookat how I was relating to my body
(05:10):
, which was how I was relatingto life itself From.
Shortly after that, I movedwhere I was living in Cape Cod,
massachusetts, us, and then Imoved out to the mountains of
Utah and came across all thesedifferent teachers.
I started practicing martialarts and yoga and met a
(05:30):
meditation teacher who workedwith the practice as a real
somatic, embodied practice.
And then I just followed thethread of massage school and
roughing training andFeldenkrais, which is another
kind of movement awarenessmodality.
John (05:47):
Was this where you were first ran, introduced to your
mentors?
Carl Rabke (05:51):
Yeah, I'd say most of them came in moving out west,
although certain seeds wereplanted.
I actually remember the firstbook I read in Utah was Clarissa
Finchola Estes as Woman who Runwith the Wolves.
John (06:05):
Oh yeah.
Carl Rabke (06:06):
And I was introduced to my dad's copy of Iron John
and just devoured that book andthat really opened up this whole
realm of the mythopoetic andmen's work.
So those seeds were starting tocome earlier.
John (06:24):
And then you met Erin when you were out west.
Carl Rabke (06:27):
Yes.
John (06:27):
Was she a big influence in your development?
Carl Rabke (06:30):
Yeah, I think we both have influenced each other
significantly and we resonatewith the same kind of essential
frequency of what lights us upabout Buddhism and the Dharma
and what lights us up about deepecology and soul work and work
with grief and.
(06:50):
Joanna Macy's work thatreconnects.
So we follow our own threads,but we also really have this
central refuge connected tofreedom and also connected to
meeting the great challenges ofthese times and the times we're
living in and the times that arecoming.
So I think each of us feel verygrateful to have each other to
(07:15):
bounce ideas off and to beinspired and to teach and hold
space together.
John (07:20):
When did you come?
Carl Rabke (07:20):
across Weller.
We came across Francis Wellerin the Sun article.
How a lot of people wereintroduced to him.
It was shortly after the WildEdge of Sorrow came out and
actually Erin had, through ajourney, had some specific
instructions to work with,holding space for grief and she
(07:41):
realized she had no idea how todo that.
So she reached out to Francisand started doing some mentoring
with him and then I startedmentoring with him as well and,
yeah, that was that.
We've really both appreciatedhim as a mentor and friend and
they're such a beautiful body ofwork that he has cultivated
(08:06):
around both work with grief andloss, but also in looking at
what it is helps people ripeninto adults and the community
building and village growingwork that he was so deeply
influenced by Maladoma Somay,his friend taught alongside for
several years and we're verygrateful to help hold community
(08:31):
with Francis.
John (08:32):
I remember when I started to read Weller's book and Carl,
it was just overwhelmed me withFrancis' soulful language.
It was such a light for me.
I can't see enough aboutWeller's work.
Carl Rabke (08:44):
One of those books.
It's probably one of the onesI've given away more.
We have so many copies thatwe're constantly just passing
out because it is really alife-changing book and,
interestingly enough, somethingin the fields, because the year
that Francis' book came out wasall that.
Stephen Jenkinson had a bookcoming out Working with Grief
(09:06):
and Martin Prattell also had abook coming out around grief and
praise.
Oh yeah.
And I always am fascinating whendifferent movements come up.
It's like something just neededto be, like grief was calling
out to humanity to tend to itthrough these beings who were
listening and who could eachwrite so eloquently on the topic
(09:28):
.
John (09:30):
For sure.
Yeah, that was die-wise, was itJenkinson and Prattell's?
Carl Rabke (09:36):
The smell dust.
John (09:37):
That's right, the rain and dust.
So did you have much of ahistory with your own grief.
You can imagine any of us getto a certain age and we're not
touched by it.
Carl Rabke (09:50):
Yeah, I was really moved.
Stephen Levine, stephen andAndrea they were early
influencers for me on talkingabout grief and talking about
grief in the body, both FrancisWeller and Michael Meade.
Many teachers talk about thisspirit, soul continuum.
This spirit has a tendencytoward rising and ascension and
(10:14):
oneness, whereas soul hastendency downward, toward
rootedness and entanglement, andthe dark, modern, dominant
North American culture tends tomove in the direction of spirit.
Oneness always on the up and up.
Ascension is a lot.
Down equals bad, dark equalsbad in our language.
(10:36):
And so I went in my early 20s,I got pretty heavily into
Buddhist practice, I'd say Iwent in that direction of spirit
and noticed that I had kept meat a distance from grief because
there was a sense of it'simpermanent cause of suffering
(10:58):
and there would be almost likethis kind of witnessing but not
really being touched.
And it was actually a moment Ihad a very specific moment in
when my son, who's now 13, whenhe was born and I caught him
interestingly in our littlemeditation room we had a
birthing tub set up.
John (11:20):
There was a oh beautiful.
Carl Rabke (11:22):
And so I caught him and there was just a well that
broke and I just wept like I hadnever wept before in my life
and that cracked throughsomething that then has stayed
open in me.
So I'm very grateful for thatcatalyst moment.
John (11:40):
Carl, you know your story just brought back a memory for
me my parents.
They divorced early in my lifeand through my early years I
never really knew my father.
I was essentially raised in amatriarchal family.
Years pass, I married and myfirstborn was a daughter.
Several years later we wereblessed with a son.
I was elated to have twobeautiful children and, unknown
(12:05):
to me, it would soon enough be asecond son.
I don't remember when thishappened, but I realized that I
did know how to raise a boy.
And then a slow growingdepression settled into my life
and my love for my childrenwasn't affected, but rather it
was an internal struggle thatwas awakening from having a son.
Carl Rabke (12:28):
Yeah, it's an interesting place we are,
because I think many men haveforgotten how to be with other
men and that's part of what Ithink the response to the men's
movement in the late 80s and 90swith James Hillman and Michael
(12:48):
V and Robert Bly, this sense ofmen being together, not in
business competition, but reallycoming together in a soulful
way with poetry and music andritual and starting to almost
rehydrate those seeds of menthat have been as long as our
(13:12):
species has been on this planet.
There have been initiations andgathering and such profound
nourishment that comes, deepfriendship and connection with
other men, and there just aren'tthose contexts in modern life
for many of us Going out to abar or going to watch a game
(13:33):
together or something, doesn'talways get to that the same
depth that would come throughdoing an initiation for the
young boys coming out forreturning from a hunting
gathering or something like that.
John (13:50):
Yeah, the lack of ritual for young men yeah.
Carl Rabke (13:54):
I think since having rights of passing and just
having a sacredness toacknowledge transitions in life
has been lost for children ofall genders, there's not that
sense of something ending.
And now you're stepping intosomething, a new identity, with
the blessings of these wiseelders who are looking at you
(14:17):
and recognizing what yourmedicine is and what sort of
spark you're carrying andfeeding that in some way we have
much more of a culture ofconformity and just things
influenced by your value being,what you can produce or the kind
of career you have, or thosesorts of things.
John (14:41):
Yeah, and I suppose I was just thinking of my own
profession being in EMS, andit's one of certain years of
service and it probably was oneof the best things that happened
to me was working in EMS forsuch a long time.
That's such a so many positiveinfluences on my life, but at
(15:01):
the same time, the idea of beingany kind of weakness was the
guys wouldn't show it, and Iguess the last 20 years more
women have come into theprofession than the last service
I was with I think we're at 52%of our population were women,
which I think was the best thingthat ever happened to that job
(15:23):
was that now we're gettingsomething different.
We're getting more of thenurturing influence as opposed
to being tough, and I know a lotof guys at the time.
I always thought they'd beenwatching way too many police
shows because they were actinglike that, but that's not the
job.
So, hinderinzen, I guess thatjust made it hard.
Iron John Bligh talks about thewho and the mother and the
(15:49):
influence of that.
Carl Rabke (15:50):
And.
John (15:50):
I'd have to say that I certainly experienced that as a
child, reinforcing themasculinity or what was thought
of being strong didn't work sowell for me.
Carl Rabke (16:01):
Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of unhelpful cultural
messages around what it is to bea man, and I think that's when
you ask about where have all themen gone in grief circles.
It's that sort of thing,because grief does require a
certain being cracked open, acertain vulnerability, a certain
(16:21):
lack of functionality and, asMartin Prectell says, like when
you grieve you should look bad,should really have an effect on
you and in terms of that spirit,soul, commute, continuum.
It's not about getting stronger, faster, better, exceeding
grief.
It's something where you aretaken down.
(16:43):
It's one of the things thatFrancis talks about grief as
being this kind of revolutionarea emotion, because it will
not adhere to the demands ofproductivity, it will not adhere
to capitalism.
Reef is its own wild presence.
John (17:03):
Yes, yeah, the book grieving beyond, jen Dokan
Martin.
They talk about basically twotypes of patterns of grieving.
One is intuitive, where it'sthe affect, the emotional aspect
of it, and then the other endof the spectrum.
They talk about beinginstrumental, where it's grief
is experienced physically, suchas restlessness and cognition.
(17:26):
They talk about it.
And so that's where they saythat the men lie.
Is that it's not that theydon't grieve, they argue that
it's the.
They gave an example of one manwho was grieving on the loss of
his daughter and the wife wasobviously very distraught
through her grief, but he builta stone head for the grief and
(17:50):
for him that was using his handsand putting everything that he
had into the creation of thistombstone that I assume was just
a work of art.
I was hoping, well, we would getan opportunity to talk a little
bit about where have all themale voices gone?
Any thoughts, yeah?
Carl Rabke (18:09):
I think there are movements, like when my dear
colleague Alexander and I arehosting a men's group for Shul
this coming weekend and it'sfilled with men who are eager to
be in that space, and I find itto be quite a fruitful space
when men can gather in that way,and part of it is to look at
(18:30):
what are the obstacles we faceto grieving as men and some of
those things we talked about theneeding to fall off the horse,
so to speak, and be taken down.
Sometimes, gregory, and also Ithink many men are conditioned
to be more comfortable withanger, with depression, then
(18:51):
grief, so grief can often bemasked.
And then what's under thehyperact?
The hyperperformance is sometender young boy in there and
how to get what's.
What can be under the way.
That grief can be pushed to theside and replaced with another
layering emotion.
That's a little more palatable.
But I do think that thatthey're out there.
John (19:15):
See if you have a lot showing up at your place, you've
been able to make them feelsafe.
What kind of messaging are yougiving them?
Carl Rabke (19:22):
Yeah, I think it's authenticity is a big one, that
there's no performative qualityto it, and that, alexander and I
this is just how we live we'reshowing up as ordinary men who
have learned some things aboutmaking space to tend to sorrow
(19:43):
and tend to loss and to be incommunity with other men and to
have a space that is both sacredbut also just very ordinary.
To think that we need to betaught how to grieve is so
symptomatic of the problem,because it's really one of the
most common thread that linkseveryone, across gender, across
(20:08):
cultures.
Everyone knows loss and deathand illness and disappointment,
and though that's usually whatwe try to keep tidy and away
from other people, or that mentry to keep tidy and don't bring
, but it's what unites us.
Often we'll start a griefcircle just by going around the
(20:30):
room and each person introducingthemselves with just one thread
of grief they're carrying, andit can be much more so.
Now the grief is coming for theclimate and the world, not just
personal grief around my motheror relationships or things like
that, but this sense of what'sreally moving people is the
(20:52):
place we've gotten to in theplanet, or an extinction.
But when you hear a room, it'sone of the greatest just instant
drops into intimacy and intoreligion, because if you hear 20
people each share a grief,there's always going to be some
thread of oh yeah, I'm holdingsome aspect of that.
(21:14):
Oh, I feel I wasn't even awarethat there's something that is
holding that grief for thatsorrow, and so it is something
that just can bring us together.
John (21:27):
Yeah, I've never seen a room that jails quicker than
when you have people sharingtheir grief story or, as you say
, an aspect of it, and the oh,what is it?
I don't know it's that theytalk about.
Some people talk aboutconvergence of the hearts.
That energy just seems to goaround the circle and something
(21:47):
spiritually takes place.
Carl Rabke (21:51):
Yeah, I would say it one.
It just cuts through all thebullshit, gets you to what's
real Under all the pretense orall of the ways that we can show
up, whether it's man or a mixedroom, but it gets us what's
real under there.
And also, I think Francis Wellerhas this beautiful line of the
(22:13):
task of a mature human being isto hold in one hand and grief in
the other and be stretchedlarger by them, and when we can
really enter the grief and theloss and the sorrow, it opens a
space to experience much morevividness in our joy and our
(22:35):
gratitude and our appreciation,and so it stretches the capacity
of the heart to really betouched by life, rather than a
sort of numbed out middle rangethat many people are living in,
where you don't get too affectedby your grief, you also don't
get too affected by your joy andappreciation, and there's just
(23:00):
this sort of going through themotions.
And so I think it opens us upand that, for me, also ties into
the somatic piece of our bodilyhabits, because many of the
having done hands on work withpeople and taught movement for
many years, many of our bodilytension patterns are connected
(23:21):
to the grief and loss that wecarry and tension has.
There's a relationship betweenour relaxation and our capacity
to feel, and when we softentension we're going to feel more
.
And we're not just going tofeel the good things more, but
we will feel the whole range ofhuman experience, which is why
(23:43):
people tend to keep tension andkeep such a fast pace, because
if we actually slow down, softenand feel, we're going to feel
everything that is undigested interms of grief and loss in
ourselves and in the world willalso be touched by the beauty
(24:04):
and the wonder and the awe thatisn't felt.
So for me, there's a strongconnection between what's
happening in our body and whatwe have access to around, both
grief and gratitude, and joy, orthe whole spectrum of emotional
life.
John (24:20):
CB.
So you introduce the men inyour circle to the somatic
exercises.
Carl Rabke (24:25):
DG.
Yeah, we do work around breath,freeing restrictions and the
breath because that's connectedto particularly places through
the torso where the feeling lifetends to exist more.
So in the neck, in the chest, inthe belly, in the base of the
pelvis, where a lot of peoplehave pockets of numbness or just
(24:46):
don't feel a whole lot.
So it's like we work withmovement lessons to peel off
layers of the onion so thatinner space can be more
accessible and again that we canshed some of the armoring.
And sometimes it takes a littlebit, it might not happen on the
first gathering, but to startto, even if you can soften just
(25:08):
a little bit, it makes adifference and grief works in a
group.
If one person gets cracked opento access something they
weren't able to feel before, weshare a field, so that's
bringing grief as an individualprocess.
But when one person grievesdeeply, we all those who witness
(25:29):
also are part of it, and that'sanother thing about grief
ritual because people can havepressure on themselves.
I hope I am able to accesssomething, but sometimes your
role is just to witness, just tobe there Every person and say I
see you and there's the benefitof that and that's something
(25:51):
I've really learned to trust.
And Francis Weller has said hisfirst at least five or six
grief rituals he attended therewere no tears that he hadn't
accessed that, but he just youstay in the container and it
starts to work on.
John (26:07):
I know that this is similar for myself the feeling
like, oh, not a performance, butthe idea that, well, I guess
I'll talk about this when itgets closer and you have that
opportunity to either step in ornot, all of a sudden something
else comes into the field andall of a sudden, what I thought
I was going to talk about itjust spills out in another
(26:29):
direction, completely differentthan what my intention was.
It was just like the soul justtook over and said now we're
going to talk about this today.
Carl Rabke (26:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's that wildness we were
talking about earlier to letsomething that is known
unprepared, spontaneous, comethrough.
John (26:48):
Now, is there a difference in your circles?
When there are both men andwomen present, the behaviors
change.
Or do men shy away if they knowthat women are going to be
present?
Carl Rabke (26:59):
I would say yes or no.
There's always differences.
Who shows up?
And I do think part of why Ilike to hold grief rituals
specifically for men is thatthere is a sense of maybe
they're a little more able toaccess something that they
couldn't express if their wivesor daughters or friends were in
the room, but I've also been inspaces where there's a spectrum
(27:26):
of genders and people just showup with great authenticity.
So it's really varies, but Ithink so much of it is just the
holding a container of depth andinviting people to come as they
are.
John (27:40):
Yes, you're right, being authentic is a prerequisite for
organic blooming of heartfeltstories.
I had attended a Celticworkshop this past summer with
15 people and I was the onlymale, and as we were winding
down, some of the women begansharing their stories of grief,
(28:00):
so it wasn't long before I didas well.
Several months later I began towonder so why no men?
So I turned to my shamanicfriends who teach journey skills
and inquired about the men whoshow up to their classes.
And you guessed that, incomparison to female students,
not many.
So I'm left wondering, Carl, isthere a commonality of how men
(28:26):
approach grief and spiritualdevelopment, and can you speak
to this at all?
Carl Rabke (28:32):
Yeah, I think it just takes there's a certain
vulnerability required to followany path that's going to lead
to change in transformation.
So there has to be awillingness to not know and
sometimes that can be a struggleagain for those that condition.
I got to pull myself up by mybootstraps.
(28:53):
I can take care of this, I gotit figured out.
Anything that's going to betransformational will require a
reshaping and sometimes that canbe a little bit more difficult.
But again, I see in a lot of thecircles I run in there are many
men who are just hungry forthat sort of depth and
(29:15):
connection and willingness to bereshaped.
And I've been in thesebeautiful circles in the
redwoods with Michael Mead and ahundred men of varying races
and socioeconomic backgroundsand cultures and just the depth
(29:36):
of connection and vitality thatcan come people show up at the
depths of conflict becausethere's a lot of unmetabolized
age and loss that exists too andto have a context where
disagreement can happen withoutviolence, where we can.
(29:56):
Really I always love thisdescription from Michael Mead
and it speaks a lot to whatwe're talking around grief and
transformation.
He says there are these threelevels interaction.
Level one is just surface,talking about the Super Bowl and
the weather and a surface,conventional reality, and then
(30:18):
the third level is just soulful,authentic, depth connection.
And the second level betweenthose is all of the resolved
grief and anger and loss thatexists and that you can't get to
that third level unless yousink down through that second
(30:38):
level, and that's where you havea lot of spiritual bypassing or
things like you just want toget right to the oneness or you
just want to get right to thesoulful connection, but you
actually need to go throughsomething that's pretty
difficult en route, that youneed to see what is it that's
created the disconnection andhaving spaces where we can be in
(31:00):
that second place.
There's a lot of heat there,and so fire is containment, and
so when we are able to sit inthat together, especially as men
, the richness of getting tothat authenticity of that level
three is just.
It's something that I wish forso many men to experience.
John (31:20):
I can remember holding a grief circle for women.
What made this notable was theanger that came and spread.
Every woman had experiencedsome form of abuse.
I held space while witnessingtheir anger, their grief and
their losses that they hadexperienced.
This was incredibly powerfuland, most of all, it was a
(31:42):
testament to the courage ofthese women.
Carl Rabke (31:44):
Yeah, and it's an edge because there has been and
is so much violence andobjectification against, and so
how to bear witness and also howto not equate masculinity with
toxic and I think this is achallenge for many boys growing
(32:08):
up.
We'll hear the word, probablytoxic masculinity more than they
will hear just masculine.
And again, because we don'thave these, the role models and
elders who actually model what ahealthy relationship is, what a
healthy relationship to theerotic world, what a healthy
(32:29):
relationship to power andrespect can be, there can be a
sense of I'm ashamed to be a manbecause men have caused so many
problems, and we need to liftout and look at the violence and
look at the institutionalizedmisogyny that is present in so
many places and to tune towardsomething different.
John (32:54):
One quick question, carl, before we end, because it was
mentioned.
Where would people who wantedto expand their spiritual
development or moving throughtheir grief of the different
somatic structures that areavailable?
Carl Rabke (33:10):
Where to take classes.
Yeah, we have classes that weoffer through our website,
embodimentmatterscom, but thereare lots of different somatic
modalities.
I find Resma Menekum, author ofmy Grandmother's Hands, does
some beautiful looking atembodiment and racialized trauma
(33:31):
, how it's passed down throughthe generations.
Somatic experiencing is anothermodality that helps people to
really work with embodiment ofthe Feldenkrais.
Like I mentioned earlier,that's a beautiful way to learn
to move with more ease andpresence and soften those
rigidities that keep us fromfeeling.
John (33:54):
Okay, I'll look for that and I'll put it in the show
notes when I get to dig intothat one.
But I want to offer you my deepappreciation, carl, for this
conversation.
In some ways I'm speechless,but you have such a beautiful
way of expressing.
You can see a little bit ofWeller coming out a little bit.
(34:17):
When I grew up.
I want to be like Weller.
Carl Rabke (34:22):
Yeah, me too.
I'll take that as a compliment,for sure.
John (34:25):
Yeah, I didn't even throw in a little bit of Stephen
Jenkins in the north, but anyway, thank you so much.
Carl Rabke (34:32):
Yeah, thank you very much, John.
It was a delight to talk aboutall these things we discussed
today.
John (34:37):
Yeah, well, you take care.
As we close today's episode, wecarry with us the profound
insights and heartfelt storiesshared by Carl Rabke.
His journey through griefs,embodiment and the silent
struggles of men has opened agateway to deeper understanding
and compassion.
Let's hold space for theunspoken sorrows and the
(34:58):
transformative power ofvulnerability in our lives and
communities.
Remember, healing begins withlistening, sharing and embracing
the full spectrum of our humanexperience.
So thank you for joining us onthis journey of exploration and
connection.
Until next time, may we allfind the courage to face our
(35:20):
grief with open hearts andsupport one another in our path
to healing.
We will leave you with themusic of David Celeste the Seeds
we Saw.
Thank you.
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