October 15, 2024 • 32 mins
Meet Joe Natoli, a seasoned UX expert whose career trajectory offers invaluable insights for both aspiring and experienced UX professionals. Join us as we uncover the wisdom Joe has amassed over three decades, from overcoming imposter syndrome to teaching over 350,000 students on platforms like Udemy. Joe also discusses his collaboration with Leah Buley on "The User Experience Team of One," reflecting his dedication to empowering UX teams and individuals.
Whether you're new to UX or aiming for growth, this episode is packed with insights and resources tailored to your journey.
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Bio:
Joe Natoli is a UX consultant, author and speaker — and a household name in UX and product design. For three decades, he’s advised, trained and empowered the UX, design and product development teams of some of the world’s largest organizations, from Fortune 100 companies to U.S. Government agencies and startups. He has published ten books — the most recent being the second edition of the bestselling The User Experience Team of One with Leah Buley for Rosenfeld Media — and is a regular keynote speaker and lecturer at industry conferences and corporate events across the globe.
Joe has also taught more than 344,000 students through his online courses and his own UX 365 Academy, at ux365academy.com, in addition to a private coaching practice.
Joe’s approach to improving product UX and design focuses on addressing systemic, personal dynamics issues across individuals, teams and organizations: combating impostor syndrome and increasing self-confidence, improving communication and collaboration, addressing fear and dysfunction driving poor management practices and redesigning inappropriate, counterproductive processes.
His experience has been that when these root causes are improved and solved, the output of the work—and the experience people have with it—improves dramatically.
Joe lives in Washington DC with his wife Eli and three kids, and he strives to be the person his dog Rosie thinks he is. You can find Joe (as well as a voluminous collection of free UX + product design resources) online at givegoodux.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Coach Zee (00:00):
Hello teacher friends , welcome back to the UX Teacher
Prep Podcast.
This is Coach Z, and fortoday's episode I had the
pleasure of interviewing JoeNatoli.
He's a UX consultant and authorand speaker and a household
name in UX and product design.
He's been in the industry forover three decades.
In this interview, we talkedabout navigating the corporate
(00:21):
workspace, coping with impostersyndrome, the importance of a
support system and so much more.
He also talked about theinspiration for his new book,
the second edition of thebest-selling the User Experience
Team of One with Leah Buley.
I had so much fun and learned aton from Joe.
I hope you do too.
Let's listen in.
Narrator (00:41):
Welcome to the UX Teacher Prep Podcast, the
ultimate destination foreducators who aspire to break
into the field of userexperience and product design.
Your host, z Arnold, a 15-yearteacher turned UX researcher, is
here to guide, coach and mentoryou through every twist and
turn as you make your careertransition into tech.
If you're ready for a moresatisfying career and lifestyle
(01:04):
and you want the balance tounleash your creativity, this
podcast is for you.
Now for the show.
Coach Zee (01:17):
Hi Joe, it's so great to have you on the show today.
How are you?
Joe Natoli (01:21):
I'm very, very good.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
So this episode is very uniquebecause you are a UX leader and
you have lots of insight intothe UX space, so let's start by
just telling everyone a bitabout who you are.
Well, I started my career as agraphic designer way, way back
in the 80s, and that changedwith this sort of this little
(01:43):
thing called the internet.
I was working at an ad agencyat the time and the guys that
ran it the older guys that ranit were convinced that the
internet and the web was a trend, it was a fad and it was not
going to last.
And I couldn't convince themthat that wasn't the case and
that businesses were going tocare about it.
And I was frustrated enough andyoung enough and naive enough
(02:03):
to say, well, okay, fine, I'mgoing to go start my own thing
and I'm going to design for theweb.
And right around the same time,interestingly enough, I started
teaching as well, part-time atuniversity, which I've done for
all that time, and that's like32 years, something like that.
So I started my own firm, grewit to six people we were right
(02:23):
in the middle of the explosionof the internet.
You know, designing software asservice websites, et cetera, et
cetera Sold it to an IT companyaround 2004.
This remembered why I didn'twant to work for other
organizations.
I hung around there for acouple of years and went back to
independent consulting and mywife told me about this little
(02:46):
thing called Udemy where youcould teach and you could post
courses.
And I had, about you know, 8million client presentations.
So she said why don't you takeone of those, put it out there
and see what happens?
Long story short, you know, youput this thing out into the
world and pretty soon it's 500students, then it's a thousand,
and then it's, and it grewexponentially beyond my wildest
(03:09):
dreams or expectations.
Fast forward to 2024.
Between udemy and my own ux365academy, we have over 350 000
students wow which is shockingto say out loud.
Okay, I want you to understandthat that number shocks me every
time I say it.
That's kind of been my journey.
(03:31):
I still consult with clients.
I do a lot of speaking gigs atconferences, written about 10
books a bunch that areself-published.
Most recent one for RosenfeldMedia is called User Experience.
Team of One with the brilliant.
Leah Buley and I live a veryfortunate life, I guess is the
best way to put it.
Yeah, teaching is actually atthe core of everything I do,
(03:51):
even in consulting.
Coach Zee (03:52):
Yeah, so when you were teaching at the university,
were you teaching like UXcourses?
Joe Natoli (03:59):
Yes.
Coach Zee (04:00):
Okay, awesome.
Joe Natoli (04:00):
Strategic design thinking, and that was even way
back, you know, in the 90eties.
Good design is about what youdo with what's between your ears
, right?
So yeah, all aspects of it.
I mean from from freshmen tojuniors, to seniors, to graduate
students.
Coach Zee (04:13):
I've been doing that all the way up until two
semesters ago, when I first cameinto the UX space after
teaching in a classroom in NewYork City.
One of the things that Inoticed a lot is that folks
would say things like and thiswas like 2022, like you have to
be a unicorn, and I waslistening to what you just said
(04:34):
and I was wondering would you?
Consider yourself first of all,what is a UX unicorn, and would
you consider yourself one Well?
Joe Natoli (04:40):
it's not a term I would use.
Okay Because, only because Ithink the perception of that,
when companies say it all right,when employers and hiring folks
say it, what they want, is theywant someone to do the job of
three people.
Oh got it Very differentdefinition.
But to your point, I think I amin a lot of ways and I think
I'm a generalist.
(05:00):
I always have been.
I have always felt from thevery beginning that I should be
good at a lot of things and alot of areas and a lot of areas
of of design, and that's partlyjust because that's the way I'm
built.
I'm very, very super interestedin a lot of things.
I get very excited about a lotof things and you know, if you
offer me something I haven'tdone yet, my immediate instinct
(05:28):
is to say yes, whether I havetime for it or not.
That's part of it.
The other part of it is, Ialways felt like, the way to be
more useful and more valuable,and the way to progress, and the
way to have more opportunitiesopen to me was to be really good
at a lot of things, so thatwhen a client, in particular
when I started working formyself.
So when a client said, have youever done A, b or C?
I had two answers.
(05:49):
The first answer would be yeah,as a matter of fact, we just
did that for somebody last monthand here's how it went.
And the other answer is yousort of fake your way through it
and say yeah, with the mind ofI don't really know how to do
that, but I'm going to figure itout with the mind of I don't
really know how to do that butI'm going to figure it out.
(06:10):
Okay, got it.
Because opportunity, you know,presents itself only so often.
You have to be able to say yes,it was.
I also think that in yourcareer, at the beginning of of
what we now call, you know UX, Ithink it was important to be a
generalist, because the role waslargely undefined, right, and
nobody really knew what it was.
And then we got intospecialization over the years,
(06:30):
and now I honestly think we'reat a strange inflection point
where that generalism is comingback to this profession, where
you're starting to seespecialized roles kind of go
away.
Coach Zee (06:42):
So I think your point is very timely.
Oh yeah, let's talk about that,because I remember when I was
studying UX, I kind of did stuffon my own and I was researching
things online and taking littlecourses here and there and I
did take some like certificationcourses.
But one thing that.
I noticed was that, when itcame down to like UX research, I
really couldn't find a coursethat was specifically geared
towards that particular part ofUX, and I feel like a lot of
(07:06):
courses just kind of touch thesurface about just UX in general
.
So talk to me about what you'vedone, and I know you have that
course at Academy, ux 365.
So talk to me about what you'vedone there and how you've kind
of like taught UX research, ormaybe not taught UX research and
UX writing and all thedifferent kind of like smaller
parts.
Joe Natoli (07:25):
It's a lot of everything.
Okay, if you, if you take alook at the curriculum there,
it's not structured like abootcamp where you start here
and then you go through theentire progression, you know,
and then you come out with acertificate.
There are courses that havecertificates, but it's it's all
the topics you could possiblythink of doing UX work.
There's certainly fundamentalprinciples and approaches and
(07:46):
methods.
It touches UX research.
It touches content, strategyand writing.
It touches informationarchitecture.
It touches actual design.
It also touches career issues.
You know landing and finding ajob, negotiating salary
portfolio but the the bulk ofwhat is there and where our
(08:07):
focus really is is how this workhappens day to day.
Right when you get a job insidea company, the one thing that
nobody tells you is that the waythe work is going to be done is
radically different thananything you've ever been taught
in a boot camp or universityclassroom or read in a book or a
YouTube video or all the stuffyou read about on social media.
(08:28):
It's different.
There are very purposefulconstraints and you are not ever
going to have the time or thebudget or the personnel or the
or the whatever to do all thesethings.
That that you've been led tobelieve is the quote unquote
right way to do the work.
Okay, this book that just cameout the UX team of one is along
(08:50):
the same thread.
Okay, so everything I've everdone is along that thread that I
just mentioned, which is here'show it really works.
Here's the stuff you're goingto have to contend with, and
here are the.
Here are the things that youshould know about what you're
walking into, so that you don'tget the job and go in and then
run headfirst into a brick walland what happens, right, I mean,
(09:13):
the important part about thisis that it makes people feel
incapable of doing the work.
Okay, they have that experienceand then they feel like, well,
I read all this stuff online youknow about, about how UX is
supposed to work and I'msupposed to be able to interview
users and and they blamethemselves you know, and they
(09:34):
and they feel like there'ssomething wrong with me.
It must be me right, because Ican't get anything done here.
And it's not true.
It's really absolutely not true.
Coach Zee (09:42):
And what you said about the brick wall.
It kind of reminded me ofteaching, because you read the
book, you read all the thingsthat you learn in class and then
when you get into the classroom, it's like somebody's throwing
a chair across the room and it'slike wait, that wasn't in
chapter three or four, thatwasn't in the book at all.
I didn't expect that.
So it sounds very similar, andI was looking at your
(10:02):
information online about thecourse and it said that you help
people kind of navigate whatyou call the messy corporate
world.
Can you talk more about that?
Can you talk more about thatphrase?
Joe Natoli (10:12):
Sure, sure, I mean here's, here's the the simplest
way to say it Corporations,companies, organizations from
startups to midsizeorganizations to large
enterprise organizations.
From an organizationalstructure standpoint, they are
set up, designed on purpose fordiametric opposition between
(10:34):
departments between people indifferent roles, between people
in different job functions,because everybody's responsible
for a different piece.
All right, so what they needand the metrics that they need
and the outcomes that they needare very different from yours.
Right.
You know, product argues withmarketing, argues with sales,
(10:56):
argues with finance, for example.
You know there's a lot ofpushback between product
managers and their bosses, andthen product managers and
designers and UXers, and thenUXers and developers or the IT
department.
And it's because all thesepeople, us included, are on the
hook for very different results,very different outcomes.
(11:19):
Right.
You have to walk in,understanding that when you're
told no, it almost has nothingto do with you.
Right when you say I need twoweeks of research and the PM
says you can't have it.
We can't do that.
That answer has nothing to dowith you.
By and large, it doesn'treflect the fact that, well,
nobody cares about UX and nobodywants to do the right thing for
(11:40):
customers and blah, blah, blah.
They have a bigger need thathas to get met.
They have to launch something,anything to check a box in two
weeks, because there's a promisethat's been made several levels
above you that you don't evenknow about.
Right right right that has toget executed on.
Come hell or high water, orsomeone loses their job, or
(12:01):
let's get real someone doesn'tget their quarterly performance
bonus, or the stock pricesuffers, or there's all sorts of
things that go on inside acompany that have nothing to do
with UX, and I think that it'seasy to believe that we're sort
of the center of the universe.
We're not.
Coach Zee (12:19):
Right.
And so here I am in my littleyou know UX research box and I'm
saying you know, why can't wefix that one thing?
All the users said you know,this didn't work for them, and
yet we're still doing that.
And then there's like peopleabove me and above them and
above them, and things that haveto be done that, you're right,
I know nothing about.
And I'm just seeing so manysimilarities between this and
the teaching space, honestly,because you know you have your
(12:40):
principal and they have toanswer to the superintendent and
you don't know what's going onin their conversations, sure,
and they have their doors closed.
But then you, as a teacher,you're like look, these are my
students, I know what's best forthem and I know what to do.
But then you have other peopletelling you that, no, we're
going to go this way, in thisdirection, and you do end up
feeling like you know, it'ssomething against you personally
(13:00):
.
So it's hard to kind ofnavigate that space.
And you talked about.
You talked about like there'smore to the whole UX course that
you teach than just the actual.
You know the training for theskills.
But let's talk a little bitabout the imposter syndrome,
because you know teachers who Ispeak to and who listen to my
podcast.
They're transitioning out ofthe classroom and of course,
(13:21):
they have imposter syndrome andthey're like, okay, just like
you said, I learned all theskills and now like, how do I
present myself?
I can't do this, this is notfor me.
Or all the skills.
And now like, how do I presentmyself?
I can't do this, it's not forme.
Or you know, they start, theystart the work and first, you
know, first week, it's like,okay, what am I doing here?
And how do you kind of teachpeople to navigate that imposter
syndrome issue?
Joe Natoli (13:40):
yeah, well, there's multiple parts of that.
Quite honestly, and whenever Isay this, people are very
surprised.
Um, I've struggled with that myentire life my entire career,
um, ever since I was young.
There are probably multiplereasons why it kind of doesn't
matter.
Okay, it's there, though the Idon't think you get any traction
over imposter syndrome.
(14:02):
You know, whatever the scalethat is, however bad you have it
, I don't think you get anytraction over it until you
accept one important fact, andthat is it's not going away.
Right, you're not going to wakeup one day and suddenly never
doubt yourself again.
Sadly it is not going to happen.
Coach Zee (14:19):
Sadly, I wish it would happen.
But yeah, you're right, it's atsome point, it's always going
to be there.
Joe Natoli (14:25):
So instead you accept the fact that, look, this
is part of who I am, and thenyou take steps to manage it, to
deal with it, to overcome it.
Okay, to say, look, mr or Mrs,Imposter, you get to sit in the
passenger seat of the car.
That's okay.
Right, you're allowed to ridewith me, but you are not allowed
(14:45):
to put your hands on the wheel.
Right, I'm driving this bus.
Coach Zee (14:50):
I love that.
Wait, I should write that down,that's good.
Okay.
Joe Natoli (14:54):
So that's what it is .
It's moments of checkingyourself and saying, okay, I
know what this is, I know whatthis voice is, I know where it
comes from.
I understand, I accept whatyou're saying, but it's not real
, I have to go forward anyway.
I accept what you're saying,but it's not real, I have to go
forward anyway.
And so the way that you combatthis is practice.
All right, you combat it bypractice.
(15:15):
You combat it by looking atyour life and say, look, nothing
has stopped me up to now.
All right, I'm still here, I'mstill doing this job.
I just got another job.
I got a teaching job, I got aUX job, whatever, if you get a
new job, it's because you weregood enough to get the job
period.
Yeah.
End of story.
You have to walk in and do thework believing that and the
(15:36):
other thing that you have to doand there's not enough room in a
podcast.
Okay to walk through, like a lotof what I coach people to do,
but you have to stop takingother people's opinions and
judgments as truth.
You have to judge what you doand what the outcome is on its
own merit.
You are going to encounterpeople who are going to belittle
(16:00):
what you do.
They're going to disagree withwhat you do.
They're going to say, well,that just doesn't make any sense
to me.
They're going to set policiesthat don't make any sense to you
, that you feel very personalabout, as if someone's trying to
tie your hands behind your back.
You have to let that go.
It has nothing to do with you.
Other people's stuff.
(16:21):
No matter what the reason forit is, it's other people's stuff
.
Judge the work on its own merit.
Judge the results on your ownmerit.
Right, judge the work on itsown merit.
Judge the results on your ownmerit, if you teach, if you
train like I do.
The only metric that I careabout is whether or not I have
students and clients and productteams right that come back to
me and say you don't know howhelpful this has been.
We've done A, b, c, d and E andhere's what it's gotten us.
(16:45):
Can't thank you enough.
That's my metric, yep, theresults.
People say to me all the timewhat do you do when a client
won't take your advice?
In a way, I don't care.
All right, I care about themvery much.
I care about the outcome.
I'm trying to help them, ofcourse, but I can't take their
decisions personally.
That's not up to me.
Mm-hmm Makes To change that.
(17:06):
It affects their life a hell ofa lot more than it affects mine
as a consultant.
So my job is to be honest.
My job is to do everything Ipossibly can to help them, but
you can't hang yourself on ahook for someone else's decision
making.
Coach Zee (17:22):
That's true.
Joe Natoli (17:23):
And I think that's what we do.
I think a lot of us do that.
Coach Zee (17:25):
Mm-hmm, that's a good point.
That's some good advice rightthere.
So along your journey, I knowyou've been in this space for
basically it sounds like threedecades.
So along your journey, did youhave any mentors who inspired
you to keep going?
Maybe in a time?
When you felt like you weren'tgoing to keep going.
Do you have anybody who youlooked up to?
Joe Natoli (17:47):
Oh yeah, there's a lot of them.
There are a lot of them.
Um, there are a lot of them,and I always feel bad about this
because I know I'm leavingpeople out.
David Flynn, who's a lifelongfriend, was a was a creative
director at the first agencythat I ever worked at.
Um, incredibly kind human beingexposed me to all sorts of
parts of working with clients,you know, and I was a kid, I was
an intern, and instead ofrelegating me to like cleaning
(18:10):
and coffee maker, he let me workon real projects, you know, and
that was, that was massive, andhe taught me along the way.
I'm forever grateful for thatand the user experience space.
There've been lots of peoplewho I feel like are responsible
for my career when it cameacross the work of Alan and Sue
Cooper, for example.
Cooper for example, um, blownaway.
(18:31):
I'm like this, this guy, in theway that the way that the two
of them as a couple, the waythey were doing their business,
the way they were running cooper, was the blueprint for my own
firm.
Okay, even earlier than that,um, I didn't come across ux
through don norman, like a lotof people did.
I came through it through JesseJames Garrett and his book, the
(18:51):
Elements of User Experience.
To me, that was like my headexploded when I read that book.
That was the beginning of mytransition from traditional
design to UX, because everythingthat Jesse said in that book
was it just made total sense tome.
It was in line with everythingI had been taught about how to
design appropriately for people.
(19:13):
I cannot overestimate theimportance of that book and my
career trajectory.
Okay, it absolutely guidedeverything that I did.
And to come full circle now andhave Jesse write the foreword
for this book he wrote theforeword.
Oh, wow, that's amazing.
(19:33):
You have no idea.
Coach Zee (19:35):
That is amazing.
Joe Natoli (19:36):
What a moment that was.
You know, and I've he and I'veconversed back and forth over
the last couple of years, um,which in and of itself is a gift
.
Right, okay.
But talk about just anincredible human being.
You know Alan Cooper.
Same thing.
Alan and I have gotten to knoweach other over the years.
I mean, it's not like we'rebest of friends, but we have
become friends.
We talk often.
He and his wife were kind enoughto help me write a foreword for
(19:58):
another book that I'm workingon.
Just pure inspiration, okay.
Kindness, generosity.
These folks were always willingto take the time to step in and
answer questions.
You know there are lots ofpeople.
A friend of mine by the name ofBrian McIntyre helped me get my
first business off the ground.
You know, was absolute supportand believed in me and gave me
(20:19):
tremendous guidancebusiness-wise that I wouldn't
otherwise have had.
You know the folks who workedfor me early on in my career.
There's just a long list ofpeople who've continued to
inspire me, and there are peoplethat do that now.
It's one of the great strokesof luck in my life that, because
(20:39):
of what I do, I come across alot of people, from students to
colleagues, people that I speakat conferences with.
All these other authors thatare at Rosenfeld Media.
Are you kidding me?
I?
came up looking up to thesepeople and now I talk to at
conferences with all these otherauthors that are at Rosenfeld
Media.
Are you kidding me?
Yeah, I came up looking up tothese people and now I talk to
them every week.
I cannot overestimate theimportance of that.
(21:00):
Whatever you want to call itright Support system, family
inspiration, guidance, somethingto sort of check yourself
against it's immeasurable.
Coach Zee (21:08):
That sounds really amazing.
Just to have all those peoplein your path to guide you as you
went and just to keep youmotivated to do the work that
you're doing.
Joe Natoli (21:20):
If you ever told me 30 years ago, if you told me I
was going to be mentioned in thesame sentence with some of
these people, I would havelaughed you out of the room.
Okay, there's no way, there'sno way.
So I, I.
This doesn't even make sense tome some days.
Coach Zee (21:30):
Yeah, it sounds amazing Like you know everything
coming full circle with thebook.
And also, speaking of the book,yeah, so UX, team of one, and I
noticed that it said secondedition, so it was a first
edition.
Tell me a little bit more aboutyou know, without giving away
the entire book, just tell me alittle bit more about the book
(21:52):
about the book Sure.
Joe Natoli (21:53):
Here's an massive credit for all this goes to the
books.
The author of the first edition, Leah Buley, who's I coauthored
this book with.
This is one of those situations.
Okay, Like all the people Ijust talked about, I read this
book when it came out over adecade ago and I was in love
with it instantly.
Okay, it's one of three booksthat I read and I felt like
after I read it, I'm like man.
I wish I'd written this youknow I seriously um.
(22:16):
Jesse's book was was the first,leah's book was the second and
then steve krug's.
Don't make me think, butthey're all good one, they're
simple right and steve is thesame way.
I mean, what a guy?
Yep, um, but they're allpractical and actionable and
simple.
What leah did and people tellthis story okay when she was at
adaptive path.
This book was born, apparently,out of a presentation that she
(22:39):
gave while she was at adaptivepath and everyone who was in the
room people still talk aboutthis online now that second
edition is out was blown away.
This makes so much sense andshe did what I think this book
still does, which is bring allthis down to earth.
It's accessible, it'sapproachable, no matter who you
(23:00):
are, no matter what challengesyou're facing, whether you're a
team of one or a team of a few.
This book is kind of likeeverything you could ever
possibly want to know about uxpractice and methods and the
world in which you will beworking in in one place.
It's an astounding, astoundingfeat.
So when Rosenfeld when LouRosenfeld reached out I think it
(23:22):
was like a year and a half agonow and said would you be
interested in doing, you know,the second edition of?
And he started to say the titleand I was like yes, absolutely.
And he's like do you want tohear the rest?
I said no.
Coach Zee (23:37):
Wow, what an opportunity.
Joe Natoli (23:39):
Yeah, you know, same thing.
Like I told you, when I readthe book the first time, I was
like this is just.
It's phenomenal, as someonewho's an author.
Like I said, there are lots ofbooks I've written where you
finish them and you go.
Man, I wish I wrote thatBecause it's in line with
everything that I believe Right.
So to be involved in a secondedition and really what we've
(24:00):
done is we've brought it intothe present.
You know, time, dates,everything, the core of the book
, the methods, the approach, theprocess, the principles that
she first talked about, you know, a decade ago, are still
absolutely 100% true.
All we really did is weincluded a lot of the challenges
that have come about as aresult of the way business has
(24:23):
changed, quite frankly, over theyears and with the advance of
technology and then speed atwhich that's happening, there's
been a lot of rapid change, youknow, in a 10 year period or
whatever it is.
So I couldn't be more honoredto be part of this and I also
honestly think without soundinglike I'm biased, which I
(24:43):
probably am, I think for newpractitioners especially, or
practitioners who are struggling, I think this is the absolute
best book you can pick up.
I really, really believe that,and that is more on Leah than it
is on me.
Coach Zee (24:59):
Wow, sounds amazing.
It sounds really good.
I remember when I first startedin UX, I was like trying to get
the best books out there.
I was asking people like,what's the best UX book I can
read?
What are the books that I didget?
Don't make me think, and thatwas one of the first ones that I
read as well, so yeah.
So, before I let you go, I justwant to ask you for my audience,
who are basically teachers, whoare transitioning into UX or
(25:21):
interested in the UX field, whatadvice would you give them, as
they're trying to transitioninto the field.
Joe Natoli (25:29):
Well, a couple of things.
I mean number one, becauseyou're transitioning from one
career to another.
One of the things that youabsolutely have to do in your
resume and your LinkedIn profilein a portfolio is you cannot
completely discount your pastexperience as a teacher.
Okay, Okay.
You want to look back at all thethings that you've done as an
(25:51):
educator and you want to tellthose stories from the lens of
user experience.
In this case, it's probablystudent experience, learning
outcomes.
There is a whole lot to me,there's a whole lot of crossover
between teaching and UX, butyou can't necessarily just tell
stories by being a teacher.
(26:11):
Go back through your history,look at what you've done and say
to yourself okay, which ofthese stories, which of these
things that I have accomplished,what outcomes do I have that I
can reframe through a UX pointof view perspective.
That's important, because whatyou don't have, the one
disadvantage you are operatingat, is that you don't have real
client work yet.
(26:33):
And that's a problem.
We're at a point whererecruiters, most recruiters, are
going to give you 30 seconds.
That's not a lie.
Okay, that's a.
Coach Zee (26:41):
that's a fact yeah, talk to just about any recruiter
, if they'll admit it.
Joe Natoli (26:46):
They'll tell you that.
The ones that I know and thecompanies that I have you know
worked with in the past.
They'll tell you they've got alist of stuff.
It's 30 seconds.
Do I care?
Does this matter?
What is this person done?
So the fact that you don't haveactual work and you have to get
some, by the way, that is, thatis a of course, prerequisite as
well um.
(27:06):
So you've got to be tellingreally compelling stories.
From the minute somebody hitsthat page, it can't just be did
this, did this, did this, didthis, did this?
Who cares?
If you've worked for anorganization, if you've taught
for university, if you whatever,what did you help them
accomplish?
How?
How did you make them better?
What did you give thosestudents that they couldn't get
anywhere else?
You have to be telling acompelling story that says I am
(27:28):
uniquely positioned for thisrole and here's why.
Yep, it's a sales pitch.
Coach Zee (27:33):
Yep exactly.
Joe Natoli (27:34):
It's hard.
It's a hard time to get hiredin this profession right now.
The hiring process itself isvery broken.
Coach Zee (27:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Joe Natoli (27:41):
That's putting it, putting it kindly.
It's just it's broken.
Right now, everything takeslonger than it should.
There's bottlenecks because ofthe you know, 12 rounds of
interviews.
Right.
All this process and artificethat's in place because people
are risk averse.
It's all very silly and itslows down the entire thing.
And you just have to be mythree, three things.
(28:02):
I tell people all the time.
It's the three P's patience,persistence, perseverance.
Narrator (28:07):
Not going to be fast.
Yeah, it's not going to be fast, it's going to take longer than
you want.
Yeah.
Joe Natoli (28:13):
It's going to hurt.
You're going to be demoralizedat multiple points along the
journey.
You got to stick with it, yeah.
Coach Zee (28:19):
Stick with it.
I you got to stick with it.
Yeah, stick with it.
I like that.
I like that advice.
I mean, I think when I cameinto UX in 2022, it was a little
bit faster than the norm.
Joe Natoli (28:31):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Coach Zee (28:33):
Definitely I'm seeing now, after interviewing so many
people and just keeping a pulseon what's happening, I'm seeing
now that that is definitelychanging and it's taking longer,
just like you said, and so Ithink it's really important for
teachers to be able to look atall the things they've done in
the past and kind of try to lookat it through a UX lens and see
what they can pull out and say,okay, I've done this for users,
(28:55):
my students, just like you said.
So don't start from a place ofdeficit, but talk about what
you've already done and how thatrelates to UX space.
Joe Natoli (29:05):
Yes, I mean, think about it.
Okay, teachers, I don't know asingle teacher.
I've never met a single teacher, at either high school level,
middle school level or collegelevel, who hasn't essentially
been working to educate a classwith one arm tied behind their
back.
You never have the resourcesyou need.
You certainly don't have thetime you need.
Coach Zee (29:23):
Okay.
Joe Natoli (29:24):
Anybody that has ever taught knows that it is not
restricted to the hours youspend in a classroom.
Right.
It's three times that.
Mm-hmm.
So I feel like there are lotsof stories where you had to
overcome constraints,limitations.
You had to innovate.
You had to say, okay, well, howdo I get this done?
Right.
I think those stories are there.
(29:45):
I really do.
Coach Zee (29:46):
Yeah, I agree, they are definitely there, so it was
so great to have you on the showtoday.
Joe, thank you for all theadvice you gave and telling your
story here.
So if anyone wants to reach outto you, get their hands on your
book, connect with you, workwith you get their hands on your
(30:08):
book, connect with you, workwith you.
How can they do that Two places?
My public website isgivegooduxcom.
I love this.
You'll find links to just aboutyeah, give good UX.
Joe Natoli (30:12):
I just love that.
Okay, I saw a t-shirt once thatsaid it was an environmental
kind of thing.
It said give good earth, andthat always struck with them
Like that's cool.
You know, I saw something yearsyears ago that said give good
earth, and that always struckwith them like that's cool.
You know, I saw something yearsyears ago that said give good
interface.
And it's so.
It's funny like and I came upwith that many years ago but
I've always kind of liked it.
It just makes me chuckleademy.
(30:33):
Ux365academycom.
You can also go to RosenfeldMedia to find the new book.
But everything is everywhere.
You know, and I do a lot ofsocial media, probably too much.
(30:54):
I probably spend too much timeon social media.
I have a YouTube channel whereI try to post lots of just quick
instructional videos or ideasand concepts and principles and
methods that I think will helppeople.
I have lots of free books on mywebsite as well that people can
grab, Just trying to give back.
you know, as much as possible.
One of the things that you hitupon, you know, when you asked
(31:16):
me about people who have helpedme throughout my career.
I take all that very seriouslyand, as much as I can, I try to
make sure that I'm alwaysputting something out there in
return, Even when I have topromote my own stuff.
I try to make it so that I'mgiving three or four or five
things before I ever ask foranything.
I just feel like that's theright way to do it.
Coach Zee (31:37):
Yeah, that sounds right and that feels right.
I mean just the fact that youjust mentioned that you have a
lot of free books that peoplecan access.
That's amazing too.
So I'm going to drop all thoselinks to the things that you
mentioned in the description boxin the show notes.
Joe Natoli (31:51):
Cool.
Coach Zee (31:51):
So that people can access them.
And, joe, I just want to thankyou again for coming in today.
It was so great to hear fromyou.
Joe Natoli (31:56):
Thank you.
Thank you, Zia.
I really appreciate the timeand this has been wonderful.
I could probably do it all day.
Coach Zee (32:01):
Yeah, I know, all right, Take care.
Joe Natoli (32:05):
You too.
Coach Zee (32:05):
Bye-bye.
Narrator (32:09):
Hey, thanks so much for tuning in.
If you like this podcast, hit,follow and scroll down to leave
a five-star rating.
Then share it with a friend.
If you're looking for resourcesto help you on your tech
transition journey, head over touxteacherprepcom.
Follow us on LinkedIn andInstagram at uxteacherprep for
(32:29):
daily tips and motivation.
Have a topic you'd like to hearaddressed on the show?
Send us a DM on Instagram.
If you're listening on YouTube,like, subscribe and share.
Until next time, be well.
Hello teacher friends , welcome back to the UX Teacher
Prep Podcast.
This is Coach Z, and fortoday's episode I had the
pleasure of interviewing JoeNatoli.
He's a UX consultant and authorand speaker and a household
name in UX and product design.
He's been in the industry forover three decades.
In this interview, we talkedabout navigating the corporate
(00:21):
workspace, coping with impostersyndrome, the importance of a
support system and so much more.
He also talked about theinspiration for his new book,
the second edition of thebest-selling the User Experience
Team of One with Leah Buley.
I had so much fun and learned aton from Joe.
I hope you do too.
Let's listen in.
Narrator (00:41):
Welcome to the UX Teacher Prep Podcast, the
ultimate destination foreducators who aspire to break
into the field of userexperience and product design.
Your host, z Arnold, a 15-yearteacher turned UX researcher, is
here to guide, coach and mentoryou through every twist and
turn as you make your careertransition into tech.
If you're ready for a moresatisfying career and lifestyle
(01:04):
and you want the balance tounleash your creativity, this
podcast is for you.
Now for the show.
Coach Zee (01:17):
Hi Joe, it's so great to have you on the show today.
How are you?
Joe Natoli (01:21):
I'm very, very good.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
So this episode is very uniquebecause you are a UX leader and
you have lots of insight intothe UX space, so let's start by
just telling everyone a bitabout who you are.
Well, I started my career as agraphic designer way, way back
in the 80s, and that changedwith this sort of this little
(01:43):
thing called the internet.
I was working at an ad agencyat the time and the guys that
ran it the older guys that ranit were convinced that the
internet and the web was a trend, it was a fad and it was not
going to last.
And I couldn't convince themthat that wasn't the case and
that businesses were going tocare about it.
And I was frustrated enough andyoung enough and naive enough
(02:03):
to say, well, okay, fine, I'mgoing to go start my own thing
and I'm going to design for theweb.
And right around the same time,interestingly enough, I started
teaching as well, part-time atuniversity, which I've done for
all that time, and that's like32 years, something like that.
So I started my own firm, grewit to six people we were right
(02:23):
in the middle of the explosionof the internet.
You know, designing software asservice websites, et cetera, et
cetera Sold it to an IT companyaround 2004.
This remembered why I didn'twant to work for other
organizations.
I hung around there for acouple of years and went back to
independent consulting and mywife told me about this little
(02:46):
thing called Udemy where youcould teach and you could post
courses.
And I had, about you know, 8million client presentations.
So she said why don't you takeone of those, put it out there
and see what happens?
Long story short, you know, youput this thing out into the
world and pretty soon it's 500students, then it's a thousand,
and then it's, and it grewexponentially beyond my wildest
(03:09):
dreams or expectations.
Fast forward to 2024.
Between udemy and my own ux365academy, we have over 350 000
students wow which is shockingto say out loud.
Okay, I want you to understandthat that number shocks me every
time I say it.
That's kind of been my journey.
(03:31):
I still consult with clients.
I do a lot of speaking gigs atconferences, written about 10
books a bunch that areself-published.
Most recent one for RosenfeldMedia is called User Experience.
Team of One with the brilliant.
Leah Buley and I live a veryfortunate life, I guess is the
best way to put it.
Yeah, teaching is actually atthe core of everything I do,
(03:51):
even in consulting.
Coach Zee (03:52):
Yeah, so when you were teaching at the university,
were you teaching like UXcourses?
Joe Natoli (03:59):
Yes.
Coach Zee (04:00):
Okay, awesome.
Joe Natoli (04:00):
Strategic design thinking, and that was even way
back, you know, in the 90eties.
Good design is about what youdo with what's between your ears
, right?
So yeah, all aspects of it.
I mean from from freshmen tojuniors, to seniors, to graduate
students.
Coach Zee (04:13):
I've been doing that all the way up until two
semesters ago, when I first cameinto the UX space after
teaching in a classroom in NewYork City.
One of the things that Inoticed a lot is that folks
would say things like and thiswas like 2022, like you have to
be a unicorn, and I waslistening to what you just said
(04:34):
and I was wondering would you?
Consider yourself first of all,what is a UX unicorn, and would
you consider yourself one Well?
Joe Natoli (04:40):
it's not a term I would use.
Okay Because, only because Ithink the perception of that,
when companies say it all right,when employers and hiring folks
say it, what they want, is theywant someone to do the job of
three people.
Oh got it Very differentdefinition.
But to your point, I think I amin a lot of ways and I think
I'm a generalist.
(05:00):
I always have been.
I have always felt from thevery beginning that I should be
good at a lot of things and alot of areas and a lot of areas
of of design, and that's partlyjust because that's the way I'm
built.
I'm very, very super interestedin a lot of things.
I get very excited about a lotof things and you know, if you
offer me something I haven'tdone yet, my immediate instinct
(05:28):
is to say yes, whether I havetime for it or not.
That's part of it.
The other part of it is, Ialways felt like, the way to be
more useful and more valuable,and the way to progress, and the
way to have more opportunitiesopen to me was to be really good
at a lot of things, so thatwhen a client, in particular
when I started working formyself.
So when a client said, have youever done A, b or C?
I had two answers.
(05:49):
The first answer would be yeah,as a matter of fact, we just
did that for somebody last monthand here's how it went.
And the other answer is yousort of fake your way through it
and say yeah, with the mind ofI don't really know how to do
that, but I'm going to figure itout with the mind of I don't
really know how to do that butI'm going to figure it out.
(06:10):
Okay, got it.
Because opportunity, you know,presents itself only so often.
You have to be able to say yes,it was.
I also think that in yourcareer, at the beginning of of
what we now call, you know UX, Ithink it was important to be a
generalist, because the role waslargely undefined, right, and
nobody really knew what it was.
And then we got intospecialization over the years,
(06:30):
and now I honestly think we'reat a strange inflection point
where that generalism is comingback to this profession, where
you're starting to seespecialized roles kind of go
away.
Coach Zee (06:42):
So I think your point is very timely.
Oh yeah, let's talk about that,because I remember when I was
studying UX, I kind of did stuffon my own and I was researching
things online and taking littlecourses here and there and I
did take some like certificationcourses.
But one thing that.
I noticed was that, when itcame down to like UX research, I
really couldn't find a coursethat was specifically geared
towards that particular part ofUX, and I feel like a lot of
(07:06):
courses just kind of touch thesurface about just UX in general
.
So talk to me about what you'vedone, and I know you have that
course at Academy, ux 365.
So talk to me about what you'vedone there and how you've kind
of like taught UX research, ormaybe not taught UX research and
UX writing and all thedifferent kind of like smaller
parts.
Joe Natoli (07:25):
It's a lot of everything.
Okay, if you, if you take alook at the curriculum there,
it's not structured like abootcamp where you start here
and then you go through theentire progression, you know,
and then you come out with acertificate.
There are courses that havecertificates, but it's it's all
the topics you could possiblythink of doing UX work.
There's certainly fundamentalprinciples and approaches and
(07:46):
methods.
It touches UX research.
It touches content, strategyand writing.
It touches informationarchitecture.
It touches actual design.
It also touches career issues.
You know landing and finding ajob, negotiating salary
portfolio but the the bulk ofwhat is there and where our
(08:07):
focus really is is how this workhappens day to day.
Right when you get a job insidea company, the one thing that
nobody tells you is that the waythe work is going to be done is
radically different thananything you've ever been taught
in a boot camp or universityclassroom or read in a book or a
YouTube video or all the stuffyou read about on social media.
(08:28):
It's different.
There are very purposefulconstraints and you are not ever
going to have the time or thebudget or the personnel or the
or the whatever to do all thesethings.
That that you've been led tobelieve is the quote unquote
right way to do the work.
Okay, this book that just cameout the UX team of one is along
(08:50):
the same thread.
Okay, so everything I've everdone is along that thread that I
just mentioned, which is here'show it really works.
Here's the stuff you're goingto have to contend with, and
here are the.
Here are the things that youshould know about what you're
walking into, so that you don'tget the job and go in and then
run headfirst into a brick walland what happens, right, I mean,
(09:13):
the important part about thisis that it makes people feel
incapable of doing the work.
Okay, they have that experienceand then they feel like, well,
I read all this stuff online youknow about, about how UX is
supposed to work and I'msupposed to be able to interview
users and and they blamethemselves you know, and they
(09:34):
and they feel like there'ssomething wrong with me.
It must be me right, because Ican't get anything done here.
And it's not true.
It's really absolutely not true.
Coach Zee (09:42):
And what you said about the brick wall.
It kind of reminded me ofteaching, because you read the
book, you read all the thingsthat you learn in class and then
when you get into the classroom, it's like somebody's throwing
a chair across the room and it'slike wait, that wasn't in
chapter three or four, thatwasn't in the book at all.
I didn't expect that.
So it sounds very similar, andI was looking at your
(10:02):
information online about thecourse and it said that you help
people kind of navigate whatyou call the messy corporate
world.
Can you talk more about that?
Can you talk more about thatphrase?
Joe Natoli (10:12):
Sure, sure, I mean here's, here's the the simplest
way to say it Corporations,companies, organizations from
startups to midsizeorganizations to large
enterprise organizations.
From an organizationalstructure standpoint, they are
set up, designed on purpose fordiametric opposition between
(10:34):
departments between people indifferent roles, between people
in different job functions,because everybody's responsible
for a different piece.
All right, so what they needand the metrics that they need
and the outcomes that they needare very different from yours.
Right.
You know, product argues withmarketing, argues with sales,
(10:56):
argues with finance, for example.
You know there's a lot ofpushback between product
managers and their bosses, andthen product managers and
designers and UXers, and thenUXers and developers or the IT
department.
And it's because all thesepeople, us included, are on the
hook for very different results,very different outcomes.
(11:19):
Right.
You have to walk in,understanding that when you're
told no, it almost has nothingto do with you.
Right when you say I need twoweeks of research and the PM
says you can't have it.
We can't do that.
That answer has nothing to dowith you.
By and large, it doesn'treflect the fact that, well,
nobody cares about UX and nobodywants to do the right thing for
(11:40):
customers and blah, blah, blah.
They have a bigger need thathas to get met.
They have to launch something,anything to check a box in two
weeks, because there's a promisethat's been made several levels
above you that you don't evenknow about.
Right right right that has toget executed on.
Come hell or high water, orsomeone loses their job, or
(12:01):
let's get real someone doesn'tget their quarterly performance
bonus, or the stock pricesuffers, or there's all sorts of
things that go on inside acompany that have nothing to do
with UX, and I think that it'seasy to believe that we're sort
of the center of the universe.
We're not.
Coach Zee (12:19):
Right.
And so here I am in my littleyou know UX research box and I'm
saying you know, why can't wefix that one thing?
All the users said you know,this didn't work for them, and
yet we're still doing that.
And then there's like peopleabove me and above them and
above them, and things that haveto be done that, you're right,
I know nothing about.
And I'm just seeing so manysimilarities between this and
the teaching space, honestly,because you know you have your
(12:40):
principal and they have toanswer to the superintendent and
you don't know what's going onin their conversations, sure,
and they have their doors closed.
But then you, as a teacher,you're like look, these are my
students, I know what's best forthem and I know what to do.
But then you have other peopletelling you that, no, we're
going to go this way, in thisdirection, and you do end up
feeling like you know, it'ssomething against you personally
(13:00):
.
So it's hard to kind ofnavigate that space.
And you talked about.
You talked about like there'smore to the whole UX course that
you teach than just the actual.
You know the training for theskills.
But let's talk a little bitabout the imposter syndrome,
because you know teachers who Ispeak to and who listen to my
podcast.
They're transitioning out ofthe classroom and of course,
(13:21):
they have imposter syndrome andthey're like, okay, just like
you said, I learned all theskills and now like, how do I
present myself?
I can't do this, this is notfor me.
Or all the skills.
And now like, how do I presentmyself?
I can't do this, it's not forme.
Or you know, they start, theystart the work and first, you
know, first week, it's like,okay, what am I doing here?
And how do you kind of teachpeople to navigate that imposter
syndrome issue?
Joe Natoli (13:40):
yeah, well, there's multiple parts of that.
Quite honestly, and whenever Isay this, people are very
surprised.
Um, I've struggled with that myentire life my entire career,
um, ever since I was young.
There are probably multiplereasons why it kind of doesn't
matter.
Okay, it's there, though the Idon't think you get any traction
over imposter syndrome.
(14:02):
You know, whatever the scalethat is, however bad you have it
, I don't think you get anytraction over it until you
accept one important fact, andthat is it's not going away.
Right, you're not going to wakeup one day and suddenly never
doubt yourself again.
Sadly it is not going to happen.
Coach Zee (14:19):
Sadly, I wish it would happen.
But yeah, you're right, it's atsome point, it's always going
to be there.
Joe Natoli (14:25):
So instead you accept the fact that, look, this
is part of who I am, and thenyou take steps to manage it, to
deal with it, to overcome it.
Okay, to say, look, mr or Mrs,Imposter, you get to sit in the
passenger seat of the car.
That's okay.
Right, you're allowed to ridewith me, but you are not allowed
(14:45):
to put your hands on the wheel.
Right, I'm driving this bus.
Coach Zee (14:50):
I love that.
Wait, I should write that down,that's good.
Okay.
Joe Natoli (14:54):
So that's what it is .
It's moments of checkingyourself and saying, okay, I
know what this is, I know whatthis voice is, I know where it
comes from.
I understand, I accept whatyou're saying, but it's not real
, I have to go forward anyway.
I accept what you're saying,but it's not real, I have to go
forward anyway.
And so the way that you combatthis is practice.
All right, you combat it bypractice.
(15:15):
You combat it by looking atyour life and say, look, nothing
has stopped me up to now.
All right, I'm still here, I'mstill doing this job.
I just got another job.
I got a teaching job, I got aUX job, whatever, if you get a
new job, it's because you weregood enough to get the job
period.
Yeah.
End of story.
You have to walk in and do thework believing that and the
(15:36):
other thing that you have to doand there's not enough room in a
podcast.
Okay to walk through, like a lotof what I coach people to do,
but you have to stop takingother people's opinions and
judgments as truth.
You have to judge what you doand what the outcome is on its
own merit.
You are going to encounterpeople who are going to belittle
(16:00):
what you do.
They're going to disagree withwhat you do.
They're going to say, well,that just doesn't make any sense
to me.
They're going to set policiesthat don't make any sense to you
, that you feel very personalabout, as if someone's trying to
tie your hands behind your back.
You have to let that go.
It has nothing to do with you.
Other people's stuff.
(16:21):
No matter what the reason forit is, it's other people's stuff
.
Judge the work on its own merit.
Judge the results on your ownmerit.
Right, judge the work on itsown merit.
Judge the results on your ownmerit, if you teach, if you
train like I do.
The only metric that I careabout is whether or not I have
students and clients and productteams right that come back to
me and say you don't know howhelpful this has been.
We've done A, b, c, d and E andhere's what it's gotten us.
(16:45):
Can't thank you enough.
That's my metric, yep, theresults.
People say to me all the timewhat do you do when a client
won't take your advice?
In a way, I don't care.
All right, I care about themvery much.
I care about the outcome.
I'm trying to help them, ofcourse, but I can't take their
decisions personally.
That's not up to me.
Mm-hmm Makes To change that.
(17:06):
It affects their life a hell ofa lot more than it affects mine
as a consultant.
So my job is to be honest.
My job is to do everything Ipossibly can to help them, but
you can't hang yourself on ahook for someone else's decision
making.
Coach Zee (17:22):
That's true.
Joe Natoli (17:23):
And I think that's what we do.
I think a lot of us do that.
Coach Zee (17:25):
Mm-hmm, that's a good point.
That's some good advice rightthere.
So along your journey, I knowyou've been in this space for
basically it sounds like threedecades.
So along your journey, did youhave any mentors who inspired
you to keep going?
Maybe in a time?
When you felt like you weren'tgoing to keep going.
Do you have anybody who youlooked up to?
Joe Natoli (17:47):
Oh yeah, there's a lot of them.
There are a lot of them.
Um, there are a lot of them,and I always feel bad about this
because I know I'm leavingpeople out.
David Flynn, who's a lifelongfriend, was a was a creative
director at the first agencythat I ever worked at.
Um, incredibly kind human beingexposed me to all sorts of
parts of working with clients,you know, and I was a kid, I was
an intern, and instead ofrelegating me to like cleaning
(18:10):
and coffee maker, he let me workon real projects, you know, and
that was, that was massive, andhe taught me along the way.
I'm forever grateful for thatand the user experience space.
There've been lots of peoplewho I feel like are responsible
for my career when it cameacross the work of Alan and Sue
Cooper, for example.
Cooper for example, um, blownaway.
(18:31):
I'm like this, this guy, in theway that the way that the two
of them as a couple, the waythey were doing their business,
the way they were running cooper, was the blueprint for my own
firm.
Okay, even earlier than that,um, I didn't come across ux
through don norman, like a lotof people did.
I came through it through JesseJames Garrett and his book, the
(18:51):
Elements of User Experience.
To me, that was like my headexploded when I read that book.
That was the beginning of mytransition from traditional
design to UX, because everythingthat Jesse said in that book
was it just made total sense tome.
It was in line with everythingI had been taught about how to
design appropriately for people.
(19:13):
I cannot overestimate theimportance of that book and my
career trajectory.
Okay, it absolutely guidedeverything that I did.
And to come full circle now andhave Jesse write the foreword
for this book he wrote theforeword.
Oh, wow, that's amazing.
(19:33):
You have no idea.
Coach Zee (19:35):
That is amazing.
Joe Natoli (19:36):
What a moment that was.
You know, and I've he and I'veconversed back and forth over
the last couple of years, um,which in and of itself is a gift
.
Right, okay.
But talk about just anincredible human being.
You know Alan Cooper.
Same thing.
Alan and I have gotten to knoweach other over the years.
I mean, it's not like we'rebest of friends, but we have
become friends.
We talk often.
He and his wife were kind enoughto help me write a foreword for
(19:58):
another book that I'm workingon.
Just pure inspiration, okay.
Kindness, generosity.
These folks were always willingto take the time to step in and
answer questions.
You know there are lots ofpeople.
A friend of mine by the name ofBrian McIntyre helped me get my
first business off the ground.
You know, was absolute supportand believed in me and gave me
(20:19):
tremendous guidancebusiness-wise that I wouldn't
otherwise have had.
You know the folks who workedfor me early on in my career.
There's just a long list ofpeople who've continued to
inspire me, and there are peoplethat do that now.
It's one of the great strokesof luck in my life that, because
(20:39):
of what I do, I come across alot of people, from students to
colleagues, people that I speakat conferences with.
All these other authors thatare at Rosenfeld Media.
Are you kidding me?
I?
came up looking up to thesepeople and now I talk to at
conferences with all these otherauthors that are at Rosenfeld
Media.
Are you kidding me?
Yeah, I came up looking up tothese people and now I talk to
them every week.
I cannot overestimate theimportance of that.
(21:00):
Whatever you want to call itright Support system, family
inspiration, guidance, somethingto sort of check yourself
against it's immeasurable.
Coach Zee (21:08):
That sounds really amazing.
Just to have all those peoplein your path to guide you as you
went and just to keep youmotivated to do the work that
you're doing.
Joe Natoli (21:20):
If you ever told me 30 years ago, if you told me I
was going to be mentioned in thesame sentence with some of
these people, I would havelaughed you out of the room.
Okay, there's no way, there'sno way.
So I, I.
This doesn't even make sense tome some days.
Coach Zee (21:30):
Yeah, it sounds amazing Like you know everything
coming full circle with thebook.
And also, speaking of the book,yeah, so UX, team of one, and I
noticed that it said secondedition, so it was a first
edition.
Tell me a little bit more aboutyou know, without giving away
the entire book, just tell me alittle bit more about the book
(21:52):
about the book Sure.
Joe Natoli (21:53):
Here's an massive credit for all this goes to the
books.
The author of the first edition, Leah Buley, who's I coauthored
this book with.
This is one of those situations.
Okay, Like all the people Ijust talked about, I read this
book when it came out over adecade ago and I was in love
with it instantly.
Okay, it's one of three booksthat I read and I felt like
after I read it, I'm like man.
I wish I'd written this youknow I seriously um.
(22:16):
Jesse's book was was the first,leah's book was the second and
then steve krug's.
Don't make me think, butthey're all good one, they're
simple right and steve is thesame way.
I mean, what a guy?
Yep, um, but they're allpractical and actionable and
simple.
What leah did and people tellthis story okay when she was at
adaptive path.
This book was born, apparently,out of a presentation that she
(22:39):
gave while she was at adaptivepath and everyone who was in the
room people still talk aboutthis online now that second
edition is out was blown away.
This makes so much sense andshe did what I think this book
still does, which is bring allthis down to earth.
It's accessible, it'sapproachable, no matter who you
(23:00):
are, no matter what challengesyou're facing, whether you're a
team of one or a team of a few.
This book is kind of likeeverything you could ever
possibly want to know about uxpractice and methods and the
world in which you will beworking in in one place.
It's an astounding, astoundingfeat.
So when Rosenfeld when LouRosenfeld reached out I think it
(23:22):
was like a year and a half agonow and said would you be
interested in doing, you know,the second edition of?
And he started to say the titleand I was like yes, absolutely.
And he's like do you want tohear the rest?
I said no.
Coach Zee (23:37):
Wow, what an opportunity.
Joe Natoli (23:39):
Yeah, you know, same thing.
Like I told you, when I readthe book the first time, I was
like this is just.
It's phenomenal, as someonewho's an author.
Like I said, there are lots ofbooks I've written where you
finish them and you go.
Man, I wish I wrote thatBecause it's in line with
everything that I believe Right.
So to be involved in a secondedition and really what we've
(24:00):
done is we've brought it intothe present.
You know, time, dates,everything, the core of the book
, the methods, the approach, theprocess, the principles that
she first talked about, you know, a decade ago, are still
absolutely 100% true.
All we really did is weincluded a lot of the challenges
that have come about as aresult of the way business has
(24:23):
changed, quite frankly, over theyears and with the advance of
technology and then speed atwhich that's happening, there's
been a lot of rapid change, youknow, in a 10 year period or
whatever it is.
So I couldn't be more honoredto be part of this and I also
honestly think without soundinglike I'm biased, which I
(24:43):
probably am, I think for newpractitioners especially, or
practitioners who are struggling, I think this is the absolute
best book you can pick up.
I really, really believe that,and that is more on Leah than it
is on me.
Coach Zee (24:59):
Wow, sounds amazing.
It sounds really good.
I remember when I first startedin UX, I was like trying to get
the best books out there.
I was asking people like,what's the best UX book I can
read?
What are the books that I didget?
Don't make me think, and thatwas one of the first ones that I
read as well, so yeah.
So, before I let you go, I justwant to ask you for my audience,
who are basically teachers, whoare transitioning into UX or
(25:21):
interested in the UX field, whatadvice would you give them, as
they're trying to transitioninto the field.
Joe Natoli (25:29):
Well, a couple of things.
I mean number one, becauseyou're transitioning from one
career to another.
One of the things that youabsolutely have to do in your
resume and your LinkedIn profilein a portfolio is you cannot
completely discount your pastexperience as a teacher.
Okay, Okay.
You want to look back at all thethings that you've done as an
(25:51):
educator and you want to tellthose stories from the lens of
user experience.
In this case, it's probablystudent experience, learning
outcomes.
There is a whole lot to me,there's a whole lot of crossover
between teaching and UX, butyou can't necessarily just tell
stories by being a teacher.
(26:11):
Go back through your history,look at what you've done and say
to yourself okay, which ofthese stories, which of these
things that I have accomplished,what outcomes do I have that I
can reframe through a UX pointof view perspective.
That's important, because whatyou don't have, the one
disadvantage you are operatingat, is that you don't have real
client work yet.
(26:33):
And that's a problem.
We're at a point whererecruiters, most recruiters, are
going to give you 30 seconds.
That's not a lie.
Okay, that's a.
Coach Zee (26:41):
that's a fact yeah, talk to just about any recruiter
, if they'll admit it.
Joe Natoli (26:46):
They'll tell you that.
The ones that I know and thecompanies that I have you know
worked with in the past.
They'll tell you they've got alist of stuff.
It's 30 seconds.
Do I care?
Does this matter?
What is this person done?
So the fact that you don't haveactual work and you have to get
some, by the way, that is, thatis a of course, prerequisite as
well um.
(27:06):
So you've got to be tellingreally compelling stories.
From the minute somebody hitsthat page, it can't just be did
this, did this, did this, didthis, did this?
Who cares?
If you've worked for anorganization, if you've taught
for university, if you whatever,what did you help them
accomplish?
How?
How did you make them better?
What did you give thosestudents that they couldn't get
anywhere else?
You have to be telling acompelling story that says I am
(27:28):
uniquely positioned for thisrole and here's why.
Yep, it's a sales pitch.
Coach Zee (27:33):
Yep exactly.
Joe Natoli (27:34):
It's hard.
It's a hard time to get hiredin this profession right now.
The hiring process itself isvery broken.
Coach Zee (27:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Joe Natoli (27:41):
That's putting it, putting it kindly.
It's just it's broken.
Right now, everything takeslonger than it should.
There's bottlenecks because ofthe you know, 12 rounds of
interviews.
Right.
All this process and artificethat's in place because people
are risk averse.
It's all very silly and itslows down the entire thing.
And you just have to be mythree, three things.
(28:02):
I tell people all the time.
It's the three P's patience,persistence, perseverance.
Narrator (28:07):
Not going to be fast.
Yeah, it's not going to be fast, it's going to take longer than
you want.
Yeah.
Joe Natoli (28:13):
It's going to hurt.
You're going to be demoralizedat multiple points along the
journey.
You got to stick with it, yeah.
Coach Zee (28:19):
Stick with it.
I you got to stick with it.
Yeah, stick with it.
I like that.
I like that advice.
I mean, I think when I cameinto UX in 2022, it was a little
bit faster than the norm.
Joe Natoli (28:31):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Coach Zee (28:33):
Definitely I'm seeing now, after interviewing so many
people and just keeping a pulseon what's happening, I'm seeing
now that that is definitelychanging and it's taking longer,
just like you said, and so Ithink it's really important for
teachers to be able to look atall the things they've done in
the past and kind of try to lookat it through a UX lens and see
what they can pull out and say,okay, I've done this for users,
(28:55):
my students, just like you said.
So don't start from a place ofdeficit, but talk about what
you've already done and how thatrelates to UX space.
Joe Natoli (29:05):
Yes, I mean, think about it.
Okay, teachers, I don't know asingle teacher.
I've never met a single teacher, at either high school level,
middle school level or collegelevel, who hasn't essentially
been working to educate a classwith one arm tied behind their
back.
You never have the resourcesyou need.
You certainly don't have thetime you need.
Coach Zee (29:23):
Okay.
Joe Natoli (29:24):
Anybody that has ever taught knows that it is not
restricted to the hours youspend in a classroom.
Right.
It's three times that.
Mm-hmm.
So I feel like there are lotsof stories where you had to
overcome constraints,limitations.
You had to innovate.
You had to say, okay, well, howdo I get this done?
Right.
I think those stories are there.
(29:45):
I really do.
Coach Zee (29:46):
Yeah, I agree, they are definitely there, so it was
so great to have you on the showtoday.
Joe, thank you for all theadvice you gave and telling your
story here.
So if anyone wants to reach outto you, get their hands on your
book, connect with you, workwith you get their hands on your
(30:08):
book, connect with you, workwith you.
How can they do that Two places?
My public website isgivegooduxcom.
I love this.
You'll find links to just aboutyeah, give good UX.
Joe Natoli (30:12):
I just love that.
Okay, I saw a t-shirt once thatsaid it was an environmental
kind of thing.
It said give good earth, andthat always struck with them
Like that's cool.
You know, I saw something yearsyears ago that said give good
earth, and that always struckwith them like that's cool.
You know, I saw something yearsyears ago that said give good
interface.
And it's so.
It's funny like and I came upwith that many years ago but
I've always kind of liked it.
It just makes me chuckleademy.
(30:33):
Ux365academycom.
You can also go to RosenfeldMedia to find the new book.
But everything is everywhere.
You know, and I do a lot ofsocial media, probably too much.
(30:54):
I probably spend too much timeon social media.
I have a YouTube channel whereI try to post lots of just quick
instructional videos or ideasand concepts and principles and
methods that I think will helppeople.
I have lots of free books on mywebsite as well that people can
grab, Just trying to give back.
you know, as much as possible.
One of the things that you hitupon, you know, when you asked
(31:16):
me about people who have helpedme throughout my career.
I take all that very seriouslyand, as much as I can, I try to
make sure that I'm alwaysputting something out there in
return, Even when I have topromote my own stuff.
I try to make it so that I'mgiving three or four or five
things before I ever ask foranything.
I just feel like that's theright way to do it.
Coach Zee (31:37):
Yeah, that sounds right and that feels right.
I mean just the fact that youjust mentioned that you have a
lot of free books that peoplecan access.
That's amazing too.
So I'm going to drop all thoselinks to the things that you
mentioned in the description boxin the show notes.
Joe Natoli (31:51):
Cool.
Coach Zee (31:51):
So that people can access them.
And, joe, I just want to thankyou again for coming in today.
It was so great to hear fromyou.
Joe Natoli (31:56):
Thank you.
Thank you, Zia.
I really appreciate the timeand this has been wonderful.
I could probably do it all day.
Coach Zee (32:01):
Yeah, I know, all right, Take care.
Joe Natoli (32:05):
You too.
Coach Zee (32:05):
Bye-bye.
Narrator (32:09):
Hey, thanks so much for tuning in.
If you like this podcast, hit,follow and scroll down to leave
a five-star rating.
Then share it with a friend.
If you're looking for resourcesto help you on your tech
transition journey, head over touxteacherprepcom.
Follow us on LinkedIn andInstagram at uxteacherprep for
(32:29):
daily tips and motivation.
Have a topic you'd like to hearaddressed on the show?
Send us a DM on Instagram.
If you're listening on YouTube,like, subscribe and share.
Until next time, be well.
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