March 18, 2025 • 23 mins
In today's episode, I explore accessibility in UX design with Shaine Frazier, a former special education teacher who now works as a UX insights professional in the insurance industry, discussing how teaching experience translates into building more accessible digital products.
• Accessibility in design helps not just people with disabilities but benefits all users
• Simple additions like subtitles in videos make content more accessible while improving overall user experience
• Special education techniques translate directly to UX—meeting users where they are and adapting content to their needs
• Teachers already have experience running meetings with stakeholders (IEP meetings) that mirror UX research presentations
• Less is more when implementing accessibility features—targeted improvements often have bigger impact than complete overhauls
• The future of accessibility in UX must balance AI advancements with human understanding of nuance around disability and diversity
Follow Shane on Instagram and LinkedIn to learn more about his journey from education to UX research. Instagram: s.d.fraizer LI: at Shaine Frazier
___________________________________
Bio:
Shaine Fraizer was born and raised in the Bronx. He is former Special Education Teacher with a unique journey from education to web design, to user experience design, cumulating in his current role as a Digital Customer Experience (CX) Manager.
Shaine studied psychology at New York Tech, where he gained early teaching experience as a program facilitator with Changing the Odds, mentoring teens on mental health and positive sexual behavior. This sparked his passion for education.
After earning his degree, Shaine pursued Educational Psychology at Columbia University's Teachers College but soon joined the NYC Teaching Fellows, serving Bronx students for five years. During this time, he ventured into web design, creating platforms for his own short-term rental business and an e-commerce company, Science.Teacher.Mom.
His growing interest in UX design led him to complete Google’s Professional UX Design Certification on Coursera. Combining this knowledge
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Narrator (00:00):
Welcome to the UX Teacher Prep Podcast, the
ultimate destination foreducators who aspire to break
into the field of userexperience and product design.
Your host, zee Arnold, a15-year teacher turned UX
researcher, is here to guide,coach and mentor you through
every twist and turn as you makeyour career transition into
tech.
If you're ready for a moresatisfying career and lifestyle
(00:22):
and you want the balance tounleash your creativity, this
podcast is for you.
Now for the show.
Coach Zee (00:42):
All right, Shane, it is so great to have you back on
the show.
How have you been?
Shaine Frazier (00:45):
I've been good.
Likewise, I appreciate youhaving me on again.
For those who have not heardyour first interview, can you
just start by telling everybodya bit about your current role
and who you are, which allows meto kind of or my position.
I'm more so the one that doesinsights now, so I take the user
(01:10):
experience and convert thoseinsights into actionable
business decisions.
Coach Zee (01:16):
Right Got it, and you've been in that role for how
long now?
Shaine Frazier (01:21):
I just finished a year last month, so that's
good on me.
Coach Zee (01:26):
Okay, congrats.
And so we know that before thatyou were in the teaching space,
right, and you were an educatorteaching what subject?
Shaine Frazier (01:34):
Math and English .
I was a special educationteacher.
Coach Zee (01:38):
Okay, so today I want to talk about accessibility in
UX, and for two reasons One,because I'm passionate about the
topic and I know for sure thatthere's a connection between
this type of work and the workthat we did when we were
teachers.
And two, now that I'm in thedesign space contributing to
student experiences, I deal withaccessibility concerns every
(02:01):
day and I'm curious what thatlooks like for people in other
industries.
So I'm in the education,educational technology space and
you're in a different type ofspace, so I was just curious
what that looks like fordifferent people across other
organizations.
Shaine Frazier (02:15):
I think more so for and when I want to say that
my thoughts and opinions are ofmy own.
Say that my thoughts andopinions are of my own.
They are not representative ofmy company, but I will say that,
within the insurance space, youunderstand that you're dealing
with a different type ofclientele, primarily Gen X, baby
(02:37):
boomers.
So they're really fucking theirways and they do things you
know based off of routine.
They do things you know basedoff of routine.
So it's hard to think ofaccessibility for them, or it's
hard to broach that topic withthem, because for them it's like
hey, I've been doing this forthe past 25, 30 years.
I don't understand why Iwouldn't need to change anything
(02:58):
.
But what I do notice is thatsomething that we start to
implement some of the stuff thatI've started to implement is
just targeting things a littledifferent and looking at the
micro instead of the macro, andwhat I mean by that is that
something as simple as likeincluding subtitles.
(03:21):
Very small Subtitles are on theshow that we watch.
Now, you know, and it's notlike I turned them off.
Um, it's just there.
You know the and so you turnthem off, and that's something
that we I, you know, I I broughtup in some of the promotional
videos that we we've employed,and although it's small, it it
makes a huge impact because nowpeople are not just following
(03:44):
along with what's being said,they can actually read it and
see it, and that's somethingthat I used to do when I was in
special education Kind oftranslate, try taking what's
being said, looking at classesand trying to translate it to
them in a way that's essentiallylike a subtitle.
They could follow along what'sbeing said, whether it's sort of
(04:06):
a screen reader or printing acopy of the lesson and providing
it to them so that they canfollow along as they're feeding
it in class.
Coach Zee (04:16):
I think one of the beautiful things about
accessibility and design is justwe're not only practicing to
make our products and servicesusable for people with
disabilities, but when we dothat and when we focus on making
things usable for people withdisabilities, we then are able
to reach even more people evenwithout disabilities, right
absolutely yeah and so I thinkthat's really important.
(04:38):
And you know, I do encountersome people who are also stuck
in their ways where you knowthey don't want to change things
but it's and it's a lot right.
It's a lot to kind of overhaula product, especially when
you're trying to meet some youknow WCAG guidelines and things
like that.
So it's a lot to take on whenyou're trying to revamp an
entire product.
Shaine Frazier (04:57):
Absolutely, I agree.
Coach Zee (04:59):
Yeah, so how did your experience as a teacher kind of
shape your approach to how youdo accessibility and inclusion
in design today?
Shaine Frazier (05:08):
Well, I want to focus more on how I used to
build lessons.
So I was 15 to 1 to 1self-contained environment when
I was teaching Algebra 1.
When I was teaching Algebra 1.
So I would receive lessons likeN's or I would receive kind of
the curriculum map and exactlywhat we want to do beforehand.
(05:32):
And obviously I'm in ICTclasses as well as a
self-contained.
But when it comes to myself-contained, I realized that
when I've done in the ICT, I mayhave to kind of I won't say
ship it for parts, but I have toget down to the meat of it in a
whole different way and I haveto look at the entire spectrum
(05:56):
of the class that I am teaching.
So that's adding visuals.
I mentioned screen readertechnologies.
I mean that's something Iprovided my students when it
comes to their devices thatthey're utilizing within the
class, adding story to theactual lesson.
Especially.
You don't necessarily think ofit when you're speaking about
(06:17):
algebra, but you have to try tomake those connections for these
students to have themunderstand it in a way that's
easier for them, right, meetingthem where they learn.
So that's how I approached itwhen I was in education and so I
converted that whole mindsetinto thinking of okay, well, how
(06:41):
can we meet our clients, ourcustomers, our end users where
they are, our clients, ourcustomers, our end users where
they are?
And what you'll realize is thatmaybe you don't have to change
everything.
And that's the misconceptionthat you do when you're in a
user experience is that when youget in, you're like, oh man,
you want to include this, thatand cert, but instead you may
(07:03):
just need to strip up the partsand exclude some of the things
and make the flow, the userexperience, much easier for
their users.
Coach Zee (07:13):
I wonder if you have a time in your UX career where
your background in doingaccessibility for students or
maybe even teachers, helped yousolve a challenge that you were
facing in your current role.
Students, or maybe eventeachers, helped you solve a
challenge that you were facingin your current role.
So I think about how maybethere's something that you knew
about screen readers or sometype of accessible experience
(07:34):
that you knew from your teachingexperience that helped you to
solve a challenge that you hadin your current UX space, and
that may or may not be true, butI wondered if there was any
examples of that where you werelike, ok, well, I tried this
when I was teaching, so maybethis might work in this case for
UX design.
Shaine Frazier (07:50):
Yeah, I think yeah, I wouldn't necessarily
label it as a challenge.
More so, it's a light bulb idea, and some of the things that I
did when I was prior to where Iam now is think about, well, how
do people receive information,and what I've noticed is that
(08:12):
the generation that we're in now, they love themselves in videos
, they love the graphics, theylove the visuals, what's being
said to them.
It sparks them to purchase theproduct.
That sparks them to followalong with someone's stories.
So what I realized is that'ssomething that we should maybe
(08:35):
lean into a little bit more.
But when I was doing my ownprojects, right prior to me
getting any sort of role for UX,I was doing my own products
projects and I was trying toharness that whole idea, and
that's where I came up with thewhole lucarta habit, uh, which I
(08:55):
mean you could think of it associal media for restaurants.
Right, you can see the foodsthat you are on the menu and see
a visual of it, because if yes,I mean if you realize you go to
a french restaurant andsometimes authentic french
restaurants they'll say theirfood in in french, you know,
which is fantastic for them, butnot everybody reads french, so
(09:19):
what does that food look likeyou'll have to guess you'll have
to, you know take out yourphone, translate it yourself and
try to get it to this tounderstand what's going on.
I mean, hey, let's include thatvisual.
Oh man, that looks appetizing.
You're scrolling, essentially,at the restaurant, the
(09:40):
restaurant's menu, and seeingthe various foods that are there
.
I took that whole concept and Itry to apply it to the food
that I am in now, right, and tryto meet and try to get people
to see more of a visual of whatit is that they're trying to do,
(10:00):
instead of just having thereader technology.
Coach Zee (10:06):
Okay, got it, got it.
Having the third, the readertechnology okay, got it, got it.
So I wonder about teachers.
You know, I'm always wonderingabout teachers, right, I'm
wondering about teachers thatare transitioning to the ux
space or are new to the uxdesign space, what I guess?
How can they kind of liketranslate their teaching skills
or explain, like in an interview, that they know how to address
(10:27):
accessibility concerns when itcomes to products or people?
Shaine Frazier (10:33):
yeah, I think about where I was as special
education teacher and I thinkabout all the different iep
meetings that I had to run.
Right, you're spearheadingmeetings here.
You have your stakeholders,obviously, the parents and the
admin.
If you have a special educationcoordinator in the room,
(10:54):
typically, if you need be,you'll have also an assistant
principal and you function andyou're running your meeting as
such.
Right, you're giving a brief ofthe student where they are.
Right, I mean, this is almostlike wash off, wash on when it
comes to a product,unfortunately, because you're
(11:14):
given a brief of where wecurrently are and how can we get
to the next step if you boil itdown to those two points.
So, within the space of school,I mean when you are as a
teacher, you've already donethis.
You know how to run thesemeetings.
You've spoken with stakeholders.
Coach Zee (11:33):
Right.
Shaine Frazier (11:34):
High-level stakeholders who can provide
pushback.
No, I want my child to be ableto do this, that and a third.
So you have to receive thoseinsights and you have to try to
convey hey, you know what?
Okay, let's come with a betteridea, whether it's reconvening
or if it's like, all right,let's take your insights and
we'll try to apply it.
So you have this experiencealready, and this is just coming
(11:59):
to like speaking tostakeholders and also presenting
to stakeholders.
So you have that experiencealready to stakeholders, right?
So you have that experiencealready.
Not only do you have theexperience of presenting,
providing this information tothe parents, but you also know
how to present these insights.
You have the insights, thegrades, the behavior tracker,
(12:20):
the if it's a, if it's somethingthat's you know.
So that's the behavior they'restruggling with dyslexia or any
of those other disabilities thatsome of these students have.
You have those insights alreadyand you've already done the
research on how you can providethe best support for the student
(12:41):
, and now it's up to you to tryto take that information,
provide insights.
So, if you think of it that way, you're capable enough to be
able to look at it as a userresearcher.
If you want to be a designer.
(13:01):
It's a little bit different,it's a little bit more technical
, and I want most people to knowthat being a researcher and
being a designer although theysound, although UX is like a
broad topic, there are twodifferent things, vastly two
different things, Because notonly are you doing that, you're
building these products, you'rebuilding the prototypes, the
wireframes and such, so thatjust takes time and also
(13:25):
practice to get better at, so Ican't say that you're going to
know how to do that immediately.
However, you could take any ofthese courses that are available
to us, Some of them free, Someof them you know you can pay for
, but also there are a wealth ofinformation when it comes to
(13:46):
LinkedIn and providing snapshotsof how you can, you know,
improve your design.
So I can speak to desires there.
But as for the researchers, youknow what it takes to get your
child or your student to thenext level.
You've researched this.
You've went to school.
You know all of thisinformation.
(14:07):
You just have to apply it.
Coach Zee (14:15):
Right and I appreciate you sharing that
honest bit about just if you'rein the UX design space.
It's a little bit moretechnical because we do have to
identify.
You know there are gaps comingfrom the teaching space and not
every teacher has that technicalbackground and you may have to
take some courses and try tofill in that knowledge gap about
accessibility.
Absolutely, in your currentrole in your company, do you
feel like you have to advocatefor inclusive design or do you
feel like it's already built in,baked in?
(14:36):
I know sometimes in some placesyou have to really fight for it
.
Shaine Frazier (14:41):
I will say that it's not a fight.
However, it's not thought ofright and it's not thought of
intentionally right.
It's not a fight.
However, it's not thought ofright and it's not thought of
intentionally right.
It's not a woeful ignorance.
It's just not consideredbecause, hey, within that sphere
, their clientele is this right,their clientele are Gen Xers.
You know these people who havebeen in the industry for 25
years.
They know how to inputinformation.
(15:02):
They don't need this extrainformation.
However, we are thinking about Imean, all companies are
thinking about how to become,you know, get on the cutting
edge and provide a betterproduct, and so I don't think
it's a fight for me, I thinkit's easy for me to implement.
(15:24):
Hey, you know what I think weshould start targeting?
You know our client, you knowemails, deep link emails, you
know stuff like that and providea better UI for the emails,
right, something that is mucheasier for the user to navigate
right, as opposed to givingblock text in an email that
(15:45):
people will silver, you know.
So, just thinking about thosedifferent things.
Also, as I mentioned, I reallycan't stand it enough Providing
subtitles for videos so thatpeople can follow along, whether
it's a quick video for on howto access something within the
platform, providing subtitles,for that is an enormous help.
(16:08):
Why?
Because not everybody isfollowing along and some people
are distracted when they'redoing work, so they may not have
caught something and they aretrying to rewind the videos and
listen.
No, you can help them out byproviding some of those
subtitles.
So I don't say that it's afight for me.
I just think that it'ssomething that comes with the
(16:29):
territory.
Now for my job.
Coach Zee (16:33):
Okay, that makes sense.
I think it's so important toconsider how people are going to
consume your content and makingsure that it's accessible in so
many different ways so thatyour users can really take
advantage of it, because I thinka lot of times we put things
out there and because people whoare designers or researchers
think, oh, this is great.
Sometimes we fail to reallythink about, you know, putting
(16:56):
it in front of different typesof users and including users
with disabilities, for example,to really see how we can make
those improvements, because alot of times the users with
disabilities, as an example,don't really come into play when
it comes to the participant.
You know, base that we do forUX research.
Shaine Frazier (17:15):
And something I'd like to add on that is that
I think I mentioned it earlier,but less is more when it comes
to some of these things, and Iknow you know, coming within the
space, I'm speaking to one ofmy managers and saying, hey, you
know, I'm seeing these insightsand it looks like people are
struggling with this and we gothrough it and they follow along
(17:37):
with what I'm seeing here, andthen we see that it's not that
large of a population and if youthink about implementing one of
those changes when it comes tothat sort of access, hey, you
know what I want to include likea just a hidden icon, because,
hey, it takes a lot of manpowerand resources to make a change
(18:12):
within a specific platform.
So, and and I mentioned thisbecause the same thing with with
myself, soon as you don't needa whole binder full of resources
for your students and meet themwhere they are, and I think I
mean that's just a little nuggetthat I'm realizing that.
You know, as I am within thisfield, it may seem like, oh yeah
(18:36):
, you're going to changeeverything.
Now you may want to justobserve and receive all the
information that you can andthen tweak rather than make
major changes.
Coach Zee (18:48):
Yeah, definitely that makes sense.
Definitely have to weigh therisk and see if it even makes
sense to make that type ofchange.
That's why it's so important tojust really know the data
behind the products that you'reworking on, you know.
Shaine Frazier (19:00):
Yeah, 100%.
Coach Zee (19:02):
And so I think the last thing I wanted to ask you
is how do you see the future ofaccessibility in UX evolving?
Shaine Frazier (19:12):
I think it's hard to say honestly,
specifically in the UnitedStates, the current climate that
we're in.
It's interesting.
We're wearing more of await-and-see space to see how
things shape up, because thereare going to be different
decision makers when it comes tomaking these products and, as
you know the good intentionsthat have, they may not consider
(19:32):
all backgrounds or races andsuch.
So and I'm not saying that thatmakes that makes or breaks out
at all I do think thatconsidering those things allows
for a wider breadth of product.
So I can't say for sure howwe're going to receive it,
especially since you know someof these layoffs that continue
(19:55):
to happen, especially within theUX sphere.
What I can say that I would liketo see is I would like to see
us focus on the small nuances ofwhat makes a product great, and
what I mean by that is justseeing how we're, just seeing
(20:17):
how we can get where we are to abetter product.
When it comes to AI andsomething like that, I don't
want it to get to a point towhere we're taking away that.
Human interaction is what I'msaying I want it to.
I know we're going to go farand beyond with AI.
I would rather us consider thathuman interaction and, when it
(20:42):
comes to that accessibility,that the thing don't change.
This Makes sense.
Coach Zee (20:47):
Makes sense, Makes sense.
Ai is a whole nother evenlayers onto the accessibility
even more so.
Shaine Frazier (20:53):
Yeah, and what I mean, like AI, is what you make
it right.
However, it really cannotconsider the nuance of someone's
race or someone being dyslexic.
I mean, that's just.
That's something that peoplehave to be in place for to
consider those things, and Iknow we're going to get into a
space where we're just trying tomake the fastest minimum viable
(21:19):
product and put it out thereand AI is going to be passive
for that, but it's notconsidering the nuances of a
product.
Coach Zee (21:31):
A lot of different levels and types of bias in that
whole the whole AI world tomindful of.
So we'll have to hold on andsee how that all plays out.
Absolutely Accessibility is atopic that you you know.
It's very deep and very youknow, detailed it can go.
We can talk about accessibilityfor a long, long, long hour and
(21:55):
there's just so many differentaspects to it.
We really just only scratch thesurface in this conversation.
But I appreciate you coming onto share how you approach
accessibility and inclusion inux, and I know that the
listeners will take away so muchfrom this conversation and
start to connect those dotsbetween accessibility in the
teaching space to accessibilityin the UX space.
So I want to thank you againfor coming on and just sharing a
(22:17):
little piece of your world withus today.
Shaine Frazier (22:20):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it and I'msorry if that you know that last
bit was a little bitlong-winded.
I really appreciate it and I'msorry if that you know that last
bit was a little bitlong-winded.
I was trying to explain, likehow because it really gets hard
to quantify how AI is going tomake a change within how
accessibility is used, right, Imean, you just have different
people getting access to thatinformation and you just want to
(22:42):
consider that.
But thank you for having me on.
I really appreciate having thistalk, and especially about
accessibility.
This is something that's sonear and dear to my heart.
Coach Zee (22:50):
Absolutely, and we have your Instagram handle and
your LinkedIn and we'll put thatin the show notes and in the
description if folks want toreach out to you.
Thank you, we'll talk againsoon.
Narrator (23:04):
Hey, thanks so much for tuning in.
If you like this podcast, hit,follow and scroll down to leave
a five-star rating.
Then share it with a friend.
If you're looking for resourcesto help you on your tech
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Follow us on LinkedIn andInstagram at uxteacherprep for
daily tips and motivation.
(23:24):
Have a topic you'd like to hearaddressed on the show?
Send us a DM on Instagram.
If you're listening on YouTube,like, subscribe and share.
Until next time, be well.
Shaine Frazier (23:41):
Thanks.
Welcome to the UX Teacher Prep Podcast, the
ultimate destination foreducators who aspire to break
into the field of userexperience and product design.
Your host, zee Arnold, a15-year teacher turned UX
researcher, is here to guide,coach and mentor you through
every twist and turn as you makeyour career transition into
tech.
If you're ready for a moresatisfying career and lifestyle
(00:22):
and you want the balance tounleash your creativity, this
podcast is for you.
Now for the show.
Coach Zee (00:42):
All right, Shane, it is so great to have you back on
the show.
How have you been?
Shaine Frazier (00:45):
I've been good.
Likewise, I appreciate youhaving me on again.
For those who have not heardyour first interview, can you
just start by telling everybodya bit about your current role
and who you are, which allows meto kind of or my position.
I'm more so the one that doesinsights now, so I take the user
(01:10):
experience and convert thoseinsights into actionable
business decisions.
Coach Zee (01:16):
Right Got it, and you've been in that role for how
long now?
Shaine Frazier (01:21):
I just finished a year last month, so that's
good on me.
Coach Zee (01:26):
Okay, congrats.
And so we know that before thatyou were in the teaching space,
right, and you were an educatorteaching what subject?
Shaine Frazier (01:34):
Math and English .
I was a special educationteacher.
Coach Zee (01:38):
Okay, so today I want to talk about accessibility in
UX, and for two reasons One,because I'm passionate about the
topic and I know for sure thatthere's a connection between
this type of work and the workthat we did when we were
teachers.
And two, now that I'm in thedesign space contributing to
student experiences, I deal withaccessibility concerns every
(02:01):
day and I'm curious what thatlooks like for people in other
industries.
So I'm in the education,educational technology space and
you're in a different type ofspace, so I was just curious
what that looks like fordifferent people across other
organizations.
Shaine Frazier (02:15):
I think more so for and when I want to say that
my thoughts and opinions are ofmy own.
Say that my thoughts andopinions are of my own.
They are not representative ofmy company, but I will say that,
within the insurance space, youunderstand that you're dealing
with a different type ofclientele, primarily Gen X, baby
(02:37):
boomers.
So they're really fucking theirways and they do things you
know based off of routine.
They do things you know basedoff of routine.
So it's hard to think ofaccessibility for them, or it's
hard to broach that topic withthem, because for them it's like
hey, I've been doing this forthe past 25, 30 years.
I don't understand why Iwouldn't need to change anything
(02:58):
.
But what I do notice is thatsomething that we start to
implement some of the stuff thatI've started to implement is
just targeting things a littledifferent and looking at the
micro instead of the macro, andwhat I mean by that is that
something as simple as likeincluding subtitles.
(03:21):
Very small Subtitles are on theshow that we watch.
Now, you know, and it's notlike I turned them off.
Um, it's just there.
You know the and so you turnthem off, and that's something
that we I, you know, I I broughtup in some of the promotional
videos that we we've employed,and although it's small, it it
makes a huge impact because nowpeople are not just following
(03:44):
along with what's being said,they can actually read it and
see it, and that's somethingthat I used to do when I was in
special education Kind oftranslate, try taking what's
being said, looking at classesand trying to translate it to
them in a way that's essentiallylike a subtitle.
They could follow along what'sbeing said, whether it's sort of
(04:06):
a screen reader or printing acopy of the lesson and providing
it to them so that they canfollow along as they're feeding
it in class.
Coach Zee (04:16):
I think one of the beautiful things about
accessibility and design is justwe're not only practicing to
make our products and servicesusable for people with
disabilities, but when we dothat and when we focus on making
things usable for people withdisabilities, we then are able
to reach even more people evenwithout disabilities, right
absolutely yeah and so I thinkthat's really important.
(04:38):
And you know, I do encountersome people who are also stuck
in their ways where you knowthey don't want to change things
but it's and it's a lot right.
It's a lot to kind of overhaula product, especially when
you're trying to meet some youknow WCAG guidelines and things
like that.
So it's a lot to take on whenyou're trying to revamp an
entire product.
Shaine Frazier (04:57):
Absolutely, I agree.
Coach Zee (04:59):
Yeah, so how did your experience as a teacher kind of
shape your approach to how youdo accessibility and inclusion
in design today?
Shaine Frazier (05:08):
Well, I want to focus more on how I used to
build lessons.
So I was 15 to 1 to 1self-contained environment when
I was teaching Algebra 1.
When I was teaching Algebra 1.
So I would receive lessons likeN's or I would receive kind of
the curriculum map and exactlywhat we want to do beforehand.
(05:32):
And obviously I'm in ICTclasses as well as a
self-contained.
But when it comes to myself-contained, I realized that
when I've done in the ICT, I mayhave to kind of I won't say
ship it for parts, but I have toget down to the meat of it in a
whole different way and I haveto look at the entire spectrum
(05:56):
of the class that I am teaching.
So that's adding visuals.
I mentioned screen readertechnologies.
I mean that's something Iprovided my students when it
comes to their devices thatthey're utilizing within the
class, adding story to theactual lesson.
Especially.
You don't necessarily think ofit when you're speaking about
(06:17):
algebra, but you have to try tomake those connections for these
students to have themunderstand it in a way that's
easier for them, right, meetingthem where they learn.
So that's how I approached itwhen I was in education and so I
converted that whole mindsetinto thinking of okay, well, how
(06:41):
can we meet our clients, ourcustomers, our end users where
they are, our clients, ourcustomers, our end users where
they are?
And what you'll realize is thatmaybe you don't have to change
everything.
And that's the misconceptionthat you do when you're in a
user experience is that when youget in, you're like, oh man,
you want to include this, thatand cert, but instead you may
(07:03):
just need to strip up the partsand exclude some of the things
and make the flow, the userexperience, much easier for
their users.
Coach Zee (07:13):
I wonder if you have a time in your UX career where
your background in doingaccessibility for students or
maybe even teachers, helped yousolve a challenge that you were
facing in your current role.
Students, or maybe eventeachers, helped you solve a
challenge that you were facingin your current role.
So I think about how maybethere's something that you knew
about screen readers or sometype of accessible experience
(07:34):
that you knew from your teachingexperience that helped you to
solve a challenge that you hadin your current UX space, and
that may or may not be true, butI wondered if there was any
examples of that where you werelike, ok, well, I tried this
when I was teaching, so maybethis might work in this case for
UX design.
Shaine Frazier (07:50):
Yeah, I think yeah, I wouldn't necessarily
label it as a challenge.
More so, it's a light bulb idea, and some of the things that I
did when I was prior to where Iam now is think about, well, how
do people receive information,and what I've noticed is that
(08:12):
the generation that we're in now, they love themselves in videos
, they love the graphics, theylove the visuals, what's being
said to them.
It sparks them to purchase theproduct.
That sparks them to followalong with someone's stories.
So what I realized is that'ssomething that we should maybe
(08:35):
lean into a little bit more.
But when I was doing my ownprojects, right prior to me
getting any sort of role for UX,I was doing my own products
projects and I was trying toharness that whole idea, and
that's where I came up with thewhole lucarta habit, uh, which I
(08:55):
mean you could think of it associal media for restaurants.
Right, you can see the foodsthat you are on the menu and see
a visual of it, because if yes,I mean if you realize you go to
a french restaurant andsometimes authentic french
restaurants they'll say theirfood in in french, you know,
which is fantastic for them, butnot everybody reads french, so
(09:19):
what does that food look likeyou'll have to guess you'll have
to, you know take out yourphone, translate it yourself and
try to get it to this tounderstand what's going on.
I mean, hey, let's include thatvisual.
Oh man, that looks appetizing.
You're scrolling, essentially,at the restaurant, the
(09:40):
restaurant's menu, and seeingthe various foods that are there
.
I took that whole concept and Itry to apply it to the food
that I am in now, right, and tryto meet and try to get people
to see more of a visual of whatit is that they're trying to do,
(10:00):
instead of just having thereader technology.
Coach Zee (10:06):
Okay, got it, got it.
Having the third, the readertechnology okay, got it, got it.
So I wonder about teachers.
You know, I'm always wonderingabout teachers, right, I'm
wondering about teachers thatare transitioning to the ux
space or are new to the uxdesign space, what I guess?
How can they kind of liketranslate their teaching skills
or explain, like in an interview, that they know how to address
(10:27):
accessibility concerns when itcomes to products or people?
Shaine Frazier (10:33):
yeah, I think about where I was as special
education teacher and I thinkabout all the different iep
meetings that I had to run.
Right, you're spearheadingmeetings here.
You have your stakeholders,obviously, the parents and the
admin.
If you have a special educationcoordinator in the room,
(10:54):
typically, if you need be,you'll have also an assistant
principal and you function andyou're running your meeting as
such.
Right, you're giving a brief ofthe student where they are.
Right, I mean, this is almostlike wash off, wash on when it
comes to a product,unfortunately, because you're
(11:14):
given a brief of where wecurrently are and how can we get
to the next step if you boil itdown to those two points.
So, within the space of school,I mean when you are as a
teacher, you've already donethis.
You know how to run thesemeetings.
You've spoken with stakeholders.
Coach Zee (11:33):
Right.
Shaine Frazier (11:34):
High-level stakeholders who can provide
pushback.
No, I want my child to be ableto do this, that and a third.
So you have to receive thoseinsights and you have to try to
convey hey, you know what?
Okay, let's come with a betteridea, whether it's reconvening
or if it's like, all right,let's take your insights and
we'll try to apply it.
So you have this experiencealready, and this is just coming
(11:59):
to like speaking tostakeholders and also presenting
to stakeholders.
So you have that experiencealready to stakeholders, right?
So you have that experiencealready.
Not only do you have theexperience of presenting,
providing this information tothe parents, but you also know
how to present these insights.
You have the insights, thegrades, the behavior tracker,
(12:20):
the if it's a, if it's somethingthat's you know.
So that's the behavior they'restruggling with dyslexia or any
of those other disabilities thatsome of these students have.
You have those insights alreadyand you've already done the
research on how you can providethe best support for the student
(12:41):
, and now it's up to you to tryto take that information,
provide insights.
So, if you think of it that way, you're capable enough to be
able to look at it as a userresearcher.
If you want to be a designer.
(13:01):
It's a little bit different,it's a little bit more technical
, and I want most people to knowthat being a researcher and
being a designer although theysound, although UX is like a
broad topic, there are twodifferent things, vastly two
different things, Because notonly are you doing that, you're
building these products, you'rebuilding the prototypes, the
wireframes and such, so thatjust takes time and also
(13:25):
practice to get better at, so Ican't say that you're going to
know how to do that immediately.
However, you could take any ofthese courses that are available
to us, Some of them free, Someof them you know you can pay for
, but also there are a wealth ofinformation when it comes to
(13:46):
LinkedIn and providing snapshotsof how you can, you know,
improve your design.
So I can speak to desires there.
But as for the researchers, youknow what it takes to get your
child or your student to thenext level.
You've researched this.
You've went to school.
You know all of thisinformation.
(14:07):
You just have to apply it.
Coach Zee (14:15):
Right and I appreciate you sharing that
honest bit about just if you'rein the UX design space.
It's a little bit moretechnical because we do have to
identify.
You know there are gaps comingfrom the teaching space and not
every teacher has that technicalbackground and you may have to
take some courses and try tofill in that knowledge gap about
accessibility.
Absolutely, in your currentrole in your company, do you
feel like you have to advocatefor inclusive design or do you
feel like it's already built in,baked in?
(14:36):
I know sometimes in some placesyou have to really fight for it
.
Shaine Frazier (14:41):
I will say that it's not a fight.
However, it's not thought ofright and it's not thought of
intentionally right.
It's not a fight.
However, it's not thought ofright and it's not thought of
intentionally right.
It's not a woeful ignorance.
It's just not consideredbecause, hey, within that sphere
, their clientele is this right,their clientele are Gen Xers.
You know these people who havebeen in the industry for 25
years.
They know how to inputinformation.
(15:02):
They don't need this extrainformation.
However, we are thinking about Imean, all companies are
thinking about how to become,you know, get on the cutting
edge and provide a betterproduct, and so I don't think
it's a fight for me, I thinkit's easy for me to implement.
(15:24):
Hey, you know what I think weshould start targeting?
You know our client, you knowemails, deep link emails, you
know stuff like that and providea better UI for the emails,
right, something that is mucheasier for the user to navigate
right, as opposed to givingblock text in an email that
(15:45):
people will silver, you know.
So, just thinking about thosedifferent things.
Also, as I mentioned, I reallycan't stand it enough Providing
subtitles for videos so thatpeople can follow along, whether
it's a quick video for on howto access something within the
platform, providing subtitles,for that is an enormous help.
(16:08):
Why?
Because not everybody isfollowing along and some people
are distracted when they'redoing work, so they may not have
caught something and they aretrying to rewind the videos and
listen.
No, you can help them out byproviding some of those
subtitles.
So I don't say that it's afight for me.
I just think that it'ssomething that comes with the
(16:29):
territory.
Now for my job.
Coach Zee (16:33):
Okay, that makes sense.
I think it's so important toconsider how people are going to
consume your content and makingsure that it's accessible in so
many different ways so thatyour users can really take
advantage of it, because I thinka lot of times we put things
out there and because people whoare designers or researchers
think, oh, this is great.
Sometimes we fail to reallythink about, you know, putting
(16:56):
it in front of different typesof users and including users
with disabilities, for example,to really see how we can make
those improvements, because alot of times the users with
disabilities, as an example,don't really come into play when
it comes to the participant.
You know, base that we do forUX research.
Shaine Frazier (17:15):
And something I'd like to add on that is that
I think I mentioned it earlier,but less is more when it comes
to some of these things, and Iknow you know, coming within the
space, I'm speaking to one ofmy managers and saying, hey, you
know, I'm seeing these insightsand it looks like people are
struggling with this and we gothrough it and they follow along
(17:37):
with what I'm seeing here, andthen we see that it's not that
large of a population and if youthink about implementing one of
those changes when it comes tothat sort of access, hey, you
know what I want to include likea just a hidden icon, because,
hey, it takes a lot of manpowerand resources to make a change
(18:12):
within a specific platform.
So, and and I mentioned thisbecause the same thing with with
myself, soon as you don't needa whole binder full of resources
for your students and meet themwhere they are, and I think I
mean that's just a little nuggetthat I'm realizing that.
You know, as I am within thisfield, it may seem like, oh yeah
(18:36):
, you're going to changeeverything.
Now you may want to justobserve and receive all the
information that you can andthen tweak rather than make
major changes.
Coach Zee (18:48):
Yeah, definitely that makes sense.
Definitely have to weigh therisk and see if it even makes
sense to make that type ofchange.
That's why it's so important tojust really know the data
behind the products that you'reworking on, you know.
Shaine Frazier (19:00):
Yeah, 100%.
Coach Zee (19:02):
And so I think the last thing I wanted to ask you
is how do you see the future ofaccessibility in UX evolving?
Shaine Frazier (19:12):
I think it's hard to say honestly,
specifically in the UnitedStates, the current climate that
we're in.
It's interesting.
We're wearing more of await-and-see space to see how
things shape up, because thereare going to be different
decision makers when it comes tomaking these products and, as
you know the good intentionsthat have, they may not consider
(19:32):
all backgrounds or races andsuch.
So and I'm not saying that thatmakes that makes or breaks out
at all I do think thatconsidering those things allows
for a wider breadth of product.
So I can't say for sure howwe're going to receive it,
especially since you know someof these layoffs that continue
(19:55):
to happen, especially within theUX sphere.
What I can say that I would liketo see is I would like to see
us focus on the small nuances ofwhat makes a product great, and
what I mean by that is justseeing how we're, just seeing
(20:17):
how we can get where we are to abetter product.
When it comes to AI andsomething like that, I don't
want it to get to a point towhere we're taking away that.
Human interaction is what I'msaying I want it to.
I know we're going to go farand beyond with AI.
I would rather us consider thathuman interaction and, when it
(20:42):
comes to that accessibility,that the thing don't change.
This Makes sense.
Coach Zee (20:47):
Makes sense, Makes sense.
Ai is a whole nother evenlayers onto the accessibility
even more so.
Shaine Frazier (20:53):
Yeah, and what I mean, like AI, is what you make
it right.
However, it really cannotconsider the nuance of someone's
race or someone being dyslexic.
I mean, that's just.
That's something that peoplehave to be in place for to
consider those things, and Iknow we're going to get into a
space where we're just trying tomake the fastest minimum viable
(21:19):
product and put it out thereand AI is going to be passive
for that, but it's notconsidering the nuances of a
product.
Coach Zee (21:31):
A lot of different levels and types of bias in that
whole the whole AI world tomindful of.
So we'll have to hold on andsee how that all plays out.
Absolutely Accessibility is atopic that you you know.
It's very deep and very youknow, detailed it can go.
We can talk about accessibilityfor a long, long, long hour and
(21:55):
there's just so many differentaspects to it.
We really just only scratch thesurface in this conversation.
But I appreciate you coming onto share how you approach
accessibility and inclusion inux, and I know that the
listeners will take away so muchfrom this conversation and
start to connect those dotsbetween accessibility in the
teaching space to accessibilityin the UX space.
So I want to thank you againfor coming on and just sharing a
(22:17):
little piece of your world withus today.
Shaine Frazier (22:20):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it and I'msorry if that you know that last
bit was a little bitlong-winded.
I really appreciate it and I'msorry if that you know that last
bit was a little bitlong-winded.
I was trying to explain, likehow because it really gets hard
to quantify how AI is going tomake a change within how
accessibility is used, right, Imean, you just have different
people getting access to thatinformation and you just want to
(22:42):
consider that.
But thank you for having me on.
I really appreciate having thistalk, and especially about
accessibility.
This is something that's sonear and dear to my heart.
Coach Zee (22:50):
Absolutely, and we have your Instagram handle and
your LinkedIn and we'll put thatin the show notes and in the
description if folks want toreach out to you.
Thank you, we'll talk againsoon.
Narrator (23:04):
Hey, thanks so much for tuning in.
If you like this podcast, hit,follow and scroll down to leave
a five-star rating.
Then share it with a friend.
If you're looking for resourcesto help you on your tech
transition journey, head over touxteacherprepcom.
Follow us on LinkedIn andInstagram at uxteacherprep for
daily tips and motivation.
(23:24):
Have a topic you'd like to hearaddressed on the show?
Send us a DM on Instagram.
If you're listening on YouTube,like, subscribe and share.
Until next time, be well.
Shaine Frazier (23:41):
Thanks.
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