March 31, 2025 • 28 mins
What business practices will sink your vacation rental company faster than an anchor? Tim Cafferty and Tiffany Edwards pull back the curtain on the management pitfalls they've personally experienced in their latest episode of The Vacation Rental Key with T&T.
Drawing from decades of industry experience managing properties from Key West to Kauai, the duo counts down their top ten "No's and Never Agains" – practices they've learned to avoid at all costs. Each revelation comes with the scars to prove it, making this episode an invaluable resource for managers looking to sidestep costly mistakes.
From the dangers of guaranteeing rental income to property owners (spoiler: they never forget those promises) to the perils of the "$2 per unit" trap that can silently drain your budget, Tim and Tiffany don't hold back. Their candid discussion covers critical topics including proper hiring practices, the importance of documented processes, avoiding employee dependency, and the absolute necessity of never touching advance deposits.
One standout piece of wisdom: "I would rather train you and lose you than not train you and keep you." This philosophy underscores their emphasis on building strong company cultures with well-defined standards. Whether you're an established vacation rental manager or just starting out, these insights represent years of hard-won experience condensed into actionable advice.
Have your own "never again" moments to share? The hosts invite listeners to connect on Facebook or through their website. And don't miss their next episode focusing on owner communications – what to say, when to say it, and how to effectively engage with your property owners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Cafferty (00:10):
You're listening to the Vacation Rental Key with
T&T, the podcast for vacationrental managers by vacation
rental managers.
I'm Tim Cafferty and I managetwo companies, one in Virginia
and one in North Carolina.
I'm one of the two T's.
Tiffany Edwards (00:26):
And I'm the other, T Tiffany Edwards, born
and raised in the vacationrental business.
I help manage our familybusinesses from Key West all the
way to Kauai.
Tim Cafferty (00:36):
In the next 30 minutes we're going to give you
our keys to success in thevacation rental business, to
success in the vacation rentalbusiness.
We're back and better than ever.
(00:57):
I'm Tim and I'm Tiffany,Tiffany.
I have had the opportunity tospeak to some folks in the last
week or so about our firstepisode and let's just say we
have people listening.
That's fantastic.
Hello out there.
So our first episode in thebooks and we're here for episode
number two.
We teased it last time.
The knows never agains.
And in our new style, Tiffany'scome up with five, I've come up
(01:21):
with five.
So TNT have come up with 10no's and never's for you today
that we're going to cover inyour vacation rental business.
Tiffany Edwards (01:29):
I'm excited, I'm really excited and I think
we have the scars to prove thatwe've gone through these, and so
I'm very excited to share.
And I do want to say have hadthis experience or have this, no
, never.
It's not too late to make achange.
Tim Cafferty (01:46):
Absolutely.
I'll count mine down in five,four, three, two, one.
You want to do the same?
Tiffany Edwards (01:50):
Yes, absolutely .
Tim Cafferty (01:51):
Do you have an order that you think this is
number one?
Tiffany Edwards (01:55):
I do so from least to the absolute.
No.
Never don't go near the fire.
I've burnt myself too manytimes.
Decision.
Tim Cafferty (02:05):
Great, okay.
So how about if we both giveour fives and fours, and threes
and twos, and we'll build to thecrescendo of our worst at the
last Okay?
Let's do it All right, I'mready.
My number five is guaranteeinganything in terms of promises to
(02:26):
property owners, particularlyrental income I think that is
one that I had to learn the hardway but especially newer
companies and company owners.
I guarantee I can get you 20bookings.
Tiffany Edwards (02:42):
Can you really can get you 20 bookings, can you
really?
It's a sad day when you findout that you can't, and I will
admit we have been in that,because when an area is so
saturated and there's so muchcompetition, you tend to do two
things you lower your managementrate or you create these
guarantees because other peopleare doing it, and the end of the
(03:03):
day it comes out of your pocket.
That's a really good number.
Tim Cafferty (03:06):
Five yeah, you have to write that check.
Here's the other thing.
You may have forgotten aboutthat conversation, but I assure
you the property owner will notforget.
Tiffany Edwards (03:18):
Yes, that's absolutely true, and we tend to
get busy.
So you're looking at revenuemanagement, you're looking at
revenue management, you'relooking at everything that's
coming in, but you're notnecessarily looking at that
exact number, and that can be abig, hefty check to write yes,
okay, that's my number five.
Number five.
So my number five is notreading a contract all the way
(03:39):
through.
So many suppliers come in nowwith a link and you sign the
last page and so you forget thatthere are several more pages
that you need to read through,and usually it's your
cancellation that is of mostimportance and what that date is
, and so I would say again beenburned too many times.
(04:01):
Look through, request theentire contract and make sure
that you read it all the waythrough, and this isn't just for
suppliers, this is also ifyou're in a lease agreement.
So any brick and mortar thatyou enter into, you have really
got to look at that fullcontract and instead of thinking
, oh, this is a good guy I'veknown for so long, read it all
(04:23):
through what your liability is.
Don't just sign the last page.
Tim Cafferty (04:27):
Love that.
I heard some scar tissue inthat comment as well.
I'll give you a real lifeexample on this.
One to the other side, tiffany,my brother is a successful
commercial real estate developerin Washington DC.
He got a letter at the end ofFebruary saying that Doge had
decided they're going to cancelthe lease agreement on the
building that we're leasing foryou, for one of these federal
(04:49):
government agencies and Tom, mybrother.
Tim and Tom my parents were notvery creative on the names, but
Tom pointed out oh no, we havea lease agreement that is
uncancellable until 2029.
So he was actually in theWashington Post twice in the
last couple of weeks about thisand the lease prevailed, believe
(05:12):
it or not.
How about that?
Tiffany Edwards (05:14):
That's great language, and if he hadn't read
it the whole way, he wouldn'thave known.
Tim Cafferty (05:18):
No, I don't think Mr Musk read that section, so
anyway, okay, let's move on.
Number four for me is somethingyou just mentioned matching a
commission that is below yourstandard.
Well, so-and-so says they willdo it for this percent.
I am happy to sign with yourcompany, but you're going to
(05:39):
have to match this commission.
Folks, don't fall into thistrap.
Or, if you do, don't ever planon having an owner's gathering
because you're going to saysomebody go over there, that
owner can't talk to that owner.
That's not a good thing.
Tiffany Edwards (05:59):
No, and Tim, to elaborate a little on that,
because I do think we all asproperty managers, and
especially with our ownerdevelopment, feel like we need
to go a little bit lower.
How do you even pitch that toexplain your expertise and your
services, so that you don't falland you train your team members
(06:20):
to not fall under that trap ofa lower management fee?
Tim Cafferty (06:24):
Absolutely.
I have several sales agentsthat work here and one of them
has been tenured for 25 yearsand this comes up quite a lot in
real estate sales, as you mightimagine, and one of the lines
he uses is oh, I thought youwanted to sell your property,
not just list it for sale Withme, as a professional, this is
(06:44):
what I need to do the jobproperly.
I thought that's great languageand it really speaks to what
you're talking about.
You should have analyzed whatis the appropriate commission
for your company and yourarrangement with any particular
owner, and that should benon-negotiable.
Of course, you can alwaysnegotiate up, but it rarely will
.
Tiffany Edwards (07:03):
You know I remember when my mom first
started we were at 30% and howthe mighty have fallen because
our area is so saturated and youknow we will not go any lower
than what our amount is.
So that's a very good one.
My number four, and it is my,one of my greatest pet peeves.
But when you sign up with asupplier or a vendor or you see
(07:28):
something shiny in the hallwaysof a conference and they say, oh
, it's just $2 per unit or it'sjust $5 per unit, and they
usually grab someone from yourteam who's struggling with an
issue and it's shiny and it'sbright, and they come back to
you to make a decision as theproperty owner or GM and you
(07:53):
fall into this trap.
Well, it's $2, it's $5, but youhaven't done a full audit of
how much you're actually payingto other companies of per dollar
per unit or what you actuallyhave as a software integration
that may be able to provide someof these services.
But my pet peeve on that iswhen I get stuck on a sales call
(08:13):
and I'm not prepared for itbecause I've been told to join
you know this for this greatidea that can help us out, and
then I'm stuck with a $2 or $5per unit conversation.
It doesn't work for me.
You got to audit that stuff.
You got to know how much you'respending per unit.
Tim Cafferty (08:32):
You're talking about a return on investment
here, as well as looking atprograms that you may already
have that are doing somethingvery similar, if not the same
right.
Maybe we're not using what wehave properly.
Tiffany Edwards (08:44):
Totally, and I think so.
I've tried to really coach alot of our team members up that.
If they think that this is sucha great decision, I want them
to do an analysis.
So what exactly is it fixing?
What is the cost in aninvestment?
Because a lot of people don'trealize how much training it's
going to have to provide.
Are you going to have to paymore for your software to
(09:05):
integrate with this product?
How long will this trainingtake?
Also again to your ROI, howmuch more are we building off of
this in terms of efficiency anddriving dollars to the bottom
line?
Tim Cafferty (09:19):
Yeah, $5 a unit doesn't sound like much, but in
my case that's a $24,000 a yearexpenditure.
How exactly are we going to payfor that, right?
Tiffany Edwards (09:30):
And who's managing that?
Tim Cafferty (09:32):
Not me.
Okay, Good one.
I hope you don't mind usholding the mirror up for you
guys out there Don't mean foryou to feel guilty about this.
We're just talking aboutourselves here right, yes,
personal about this.
We're just talking aboutourselves here, right?
Yes, personal, yes, it doesn'thappen to anybody else, I'm sure
.
Okay, my number three on ourcountdown of top five no's and
(09:53):
never again's poor hiringpractices.
You got to have a process,folks.
You need to have an interview,you need to have a second
interview, you might need tohave a third interview.
Make sure you get the rightpeople on the bus and then the
right people in the right seatson the bus.
(10:14):
The only way that happens is ifyou think through that hiring
practice.
Do you have an outside agencythat helps you screen?
Do you have a process or asystem that you work through to
make sure the person is matchedto the position?
Do you even have a jobdescription?
For God's sakes, make sure youhave those check boxes about
where you will advertise whatyou're advertising and then, of
(10:36):
course, when you bring them onboard, making sure that they're
who you think they are andyou're who they think you are.
And so just the whole poorhiring practice.
I hear it all the time Peoplewhining about this person or
that person.
In fact, the matter is theyprobably shouldn't have hired
them in the first place.
Tiffany Edwards (10:54):
Agreed.
And Tim, how often do you bringin your team members to look at
the job description?
Because a lot of times when yourehire someone it's not for the
same position, although it maybe entitled, but the needs may
change.
So how do you integrate some ofthat conversation and not just
make an easy first out of thegate hiring because it's the
(11:18):
middle of high season?
Tim Cafferty (11:20):
Oh right, yeah, and they did a great interview.
Best sales job that person everdid was getting that job.
You know what I'm talking about.
Well, I'm fortunate enough tohave a human resources manager,
so that is the focus of thatposition to make sure those job
descriptions are updated.
But, yes, you need to bring theteam in.
We actually went through anexercise here about a year and a
half ago where every personwrote down what they do.
(11:43):
Then we matched that up with ajob description.
Oh yeah, we forgot about that.
Oh yeah, oh this, oh, they'redoing that.
That's really not a part ofthat job.
So it was enlightening to makesure we got on the right page
there.
But again, it is so temptingyou were talking about the shiny
objects at the conferences it'sso tempting to hire that person
(12:04):
.
Oh my God, if I don't get thisperson, we are going to lose him
, and that is going to be mynext general manager.
They'll be there tomorrow.
Go through the process and geta process.
Tiffany Edwards (12:15):
That's true.
There are so many people thathave come into this industry
that are capable or can learn,who may have a background of
hospitality and to not feel thepressure from yourself or from
other team members to hiresomeone quickly.
Tim Cafferty (12:31):
I don't want to belabor this, but I do have one
other tip on that, a pro tip, akey, if you will.
A few years ago you know SteveTrover from Better Talent, he
hooked me up with the PredictiveIndex.
What a fabulous tool that hasbeen for us, where it is an
assessment of the driving forcesbehind a person, and I have yet
(13:02):
to have a candidate when Iexplain how their profile came
out, I've yet to have acandidate say no, that's not me.
Most of them say oh yeah,that's exactly who I am, and you
get red flags on that Like wow,that is really not what I'm
looking for in this position andit's been a lifesaver for us.
But again, going back to goodhiring practices, Love it.
Tiffany Edwards (13:25):
My number three is, of course, advocacy related
, but it is to absolutely know,or know one elected official or
staff member or be in one degreeseparation of someone who knows
an elected official or staffmember.
So we are located in manydifferent areas around the
(13:48):
country and I may not know a lotof the elected officials, nor
do they care necessarily aboutme because I can't vote in that
area, but I have really strongrelationships with an individual
who is close to someone who isan elected official or someone
who's a staff member, and thereason why that's so important
is because they're the ones whoare going to let you know
(14:08):
proactively if anything ischanging in the area, anything's
bubbling up.
One of the relationships that wedon't take advantage of enough
is a county or city attorney orsomeone who heads up the land
planning.
So we build relationships withsomeone who oversees the
short-term vacation rentallicenses or permits, or we may
(14:31):
have one person on a countycommission or on a city council.
However, an attorney is goingto review all of the language or
a county or city official willgo to them to ask about language
if they're thinking aboutchanging something in an
ordinance, and you'll get thatfirst call.
But the other part of that isthat if you are the one degree
(14:52):
separation, you have to supportthat individual.
So if they call you to show upsomewhere, if they call you to
get owners involved, then youneed to help support them so
they don't feel like they'realone in the fight.
And that has served us very,very well in all of our
businesses.
Tim Cafferty (15:08):
I love the idea of being able to pick up the phone
and call my state legislatorand him answering the phone and
knowing who I am and I can talkintelligently about a subject
and that took me about a decadeto figure out, tiffany, but it
is so valuable, that's a goodone, very good.
Tiffany Edwards (15:28):
Yeah, and everyone gets so intimidated.
But you have to remember thesepoliticians are elected because
you helped them out or you're aconstituent of their area, so
part of their job is to listento you.
Now, they all may not likevacation rentals, but find the
ones that don't know enoughabout it and be the educator for
that, and definitely stay withthe staff, because the staff's
(15:49):
there a lot longer than theelected officials.
Tim Cafferty (15:53):
Donation to the reelection campaign doesn't hurt
either.
Tiffany Edwards (15:57):
Always, always help there.
Put it in the budget.
Tim Cafferty (16:01):
Okay, all right, so we're down to number two on
our top five for each of us, or10 total, if you will, of those,
and never again and I'm tellingyou we did not compare notes
but our number two is so similaryou took it a little further.
So I'm going to start and youcan pick up.
So my no and never for numbertwo is not having a process to
(16:23):
fall back on, whether it beinspections of a property before
a guest arrival, how to handlea lead that comes into your
reservations department, howabout entering a property into
your software system?
Oh no, sally does that.
Well, sally, what exactly doyou do when you enter a property
?
That tribal knowledge thing?
(16:44):
You can't rely on just peopleto figure it out.
You should have a process A toZ, and it is a complete pain in
the.
I understand, but thosestandard operating procedures
about how you do is what makesyour company different than Joe
Schmo down the street who'srenting anything with a door.
Tiffany Edwards (17:04):
And how often do you check those processes?
Because obviously they evolveand they are a pain in the but
how often do you check thoseprocesses with your team members
?
Tim Cafferty (17:15):
Okay, do you want me to give you a true answer?
Tiffany Edwards (17:19):
Let's give a hopeful, aspirational answer.
Tim Cafferty (17:24):
Oh, aspirationally .
Oh yes, we look at thatannually, tiffany, it's reviewed
by a whole staff and wecritique it.
And no fact of the matter is wewent through the process once,
about two years ago.
We have not revisited on aregular basis, but we have
relied on those documents.
As new people come into thefray, you can hand them this
(17:47):
document.
Maybe you'll look it over, handit over, go.
Oh, wait a minute.
We don't do number four anymorebut the others.
That's all good.
The idea is sitting down andworking through this process and
, in fairness, when we did that,we came up with like 180
different processes, so it was abear to get through and, of
course, I assigned it to myassistant.
(18:10):
She was on non-talking termswith me for a while, but we got
it done and it's been veryhelpful.
So I'm sticking with my thoughtthere.
On number two, 180,.
Tiffany Edwards (18:20):
I wouldn't be revisiting that for a while
either.
We're in the middle ofreviewing our hurricane process
and our action plan and I try todo that a little bit more
frequently, but more so if wehave new employees that come in
and they need a little bit moredirection or understanding that
they have to show up becauseyou're a property manager and
(18:40):
you're there as the ownerliaison, so if a hurricane
happens, I expect you to be backin the office.
Tim Cafferty (18:46):
All right.
So how does your number two fitin with that?
Tiffany Edwards (18:49):
So that very, very much mirrors and is
dependent on, I should say, mynumber two, and Ben, my husband,
has phrased this, coined itowns it, but it is to not allow
an employee to hold you hostage,and I have seen too many times.
(19:09):
From visiting other companiesthroughout the years, I have
again touched the stove manytimes on this, and now it is
something we live by.
But we tend to have employeesand keep them on for two reasons
.
One, we build up thisabsolutely beautiful
relationship and we feel guiltyabout not demanding more from
(19:35):
the position, and so we let themstay for longer, or they
oversee an area of our businessthat we don't feel necessarily
comfortable about and they'resiloed.
So I see that a lot in revenuemanagement, I see that a lot in
accounting, and so you believethat they're handling everything
, but you're not really involvedin the ins and outs of that
(19:58):
particular department.
And so if that person were toleave particular department, and
so if that person were to leave, you're in a big mess, and so
we tend to allow those people tostay and have poor behavior or
not live up to the potential ofthe job, because we're too
scared of losing them in thatdepartment, because we're too
(20:18):
dependent on them.
And you know, I was thinkingabout this the other day and
several years ago I listened tothis comedian and he talked
about this couple that needed toget into a breakup and he said
that you know the one individual.
Well, I can't break up with him.
He's got my CDs in his car andso I can't you know, I can't
(20:40):
leave.
It'd be too difficult.
I'm going to take two or threemore years of torture through
this and I think we do the samething.
It's a path of least resistancewhen really it's hurting our
business and usually at thattime that employee doesn't want
to be there anymore.
It's not challenging to them,it's not in the role is out,
either outgrown them or theywant to do something different.
So it's better to just makesure that you're spreading out a
(21:03):
little bit more and you're notbecoming dependent, and we use a
lot of consultants in some ofthose areas to prevent us from
becoming dependent.
Tim Cafferty (21:10):
This coming from the lady who, in episode one,
who said her least favoritething is HR, her number two is
all HR related there, and I havea quick story, as I want to do.
My father-in-law has a favoritesaying Tim, you're not special
and so we're not special when itcomes to this.
And I have an example of that.
My wife and I have a propertyand we're doing some work on it
(21:33):
now and we hired thislandscaping service that she's
very keen on and there's agentleman that works for this
landscaping service who is acomplete tyrant Right, and he is
working at our house and mynext door neighbor, whom I have
never met, somehow thought thatthis gentleman was me Came over
(21:55):
very nicely to introduce herselfand while the landscape work
was going on, she was going toask if we could trim this bush
on the edge of the property linebecause it's blocking her view
when she comes out of thedriveway.
So this guy goes on to talkabout how terrible women drivers
are and that bush ain't on ourproperty.
Lady, you can do whatever theblank you want to do with that
(22:18):
thing and I'm busy, so pleaseget away from me.
Talk about losing business.
And so I address theappropriate people at the
landscaping.
Oh well, you have to understand.
He's so good at what he doesLike really, is he that good
that you just lost like everypossible account for a quarter
(22:38):
of a mile in either direction?
Tiffany Edwards (22:40):
There are a lot of components to a job.
It's not just good at onefactor of it.
And if people are complainingyou might need to listen up To
go back.
You don't to listen up To goback you don't rehire quickly Go
through a process.
Okay, so that brings us drumroll.
Tim Cafferty (22:59):
please our number one no's and never's again on
our list of things you shouldnot do, and that is this is a
double negative.
You should not not train yourstaff to your standards.
We have a lot of sayings aroundhere.
One of them is I would rathertrain you and lose you than not
(23:22):
train you and keep you.
That's number one.
The other one is that if youhave not bothered to train the
person to your standards,whether it be a housekeeper,
maintenance person, reservationsagent or accounting you are
relying on their last employerto be their trainer.
And let me tell you myexperience is typically we have
(23:45):
to untrain people that haveworked for other employers.
No, that's not what we do here,Some of it flat out is illegal
what I've seen people doing.
But if you do not stand forsomething, you will fall for
anything, and not havingstandards of training in place
(24:05):
for whatever job it is is mynumber one pet peeve when it
comes to.
I will never do that again.
Tiffany Edwards (24:12):
How much of that too, tim, is a part of your
culture, because there'straining in the job of what your
standards are, but I know thatyou have developed a pretty
strong culture there.
How much of that is making surethat they understand and they
fit into the culture aspect?
Tim Cafferty (24:27):
It goes back to one of my other things about the
hiring practices.
The last part of our hiringprocess is me.
That's the fourth interview.
I am the culture police.
I want to make sure I feel likethey have a fit here, because
the fact is when I talk abouttraining or whatever, I don't
have to enforce the training Anyof my staff when they see
(24:48):
something that's not being donethe way it should be done.
You know, that's not how we doit here.
We need to do it this waybecause that's the way we found
it works best for our guests andour company, and I think
everybody defends the brand andthat's what I'm getting to.
I guess we all stand for thebrand.
It's not just me.
In fact, in previous podcastswe clearly identified I am not
(25:10):
the face of the company.
It's not just me.
In fact, in previous podcastswe clearly identified I am not
the face of the company.
Tiffany Edwards (25:17):
It's those guys out there in the field and I'm
not necessarily as good on thatHR side, but I think it's
extremely important.
My number one absolutely andnot that I have done this before
(25:40):
, but it is something that wehave always, always lived by is
do not touch your advanceddeposits.
So, tim, you're in a littledifferent place.
In North Carolina.
You have a little bit moreregulations.
Tim Cafferty (25:54):
They have a special place for people that do
that.
In our state it's called jail.
Tiffany Edwards (25:58):
Yes, yes, and in fact, where I'm based in
Florida, there is a lot moregray area.
Although it is illegal, it isnot to the same extent of where
they require some of thatfunding to be like you have in
North Carolina, and I have seentime and time again throughout
(26:21):
the country of people touchingtheir advanced deposits, and I
actually know someone who didhave to go to jail because of it
.
Do not get into that practice.
It will not serve you well atall.
I'm telling you, out of all ofour numbers, that we have gone
from five to one or 10 to one.
This one is a biggie.
(26:42):
If you're doing this, don't doit anymore.
Tim Cafferty (26:45):
That's scary Good one, one I hadn't thought of, to
be quite frank.
So there you have it.
That's our top 10 things thatyou shouldn't be doing.
Do you have some more that wemissed?
Hit us up on Facebook or sendus a message through our website
, thevacationrentalkeywithtntcom.
(27:06):
Anything else up your sleeve,that's good for this week.
What do you think?
Tiffany Edwards (27:10):
I think that's good for this week.
What do you think?
I think that's good.
It's brought up so manymemories of problems and things
I've had to go through.
I might need a nice long bathand a glass of wine after this.
Tim Cafferty (27:21):
You were going to do that anyway, you can't fool
me.
Okay, all right, next time wehave a podcast coming back to
you in two weeks, and next timewe have another popular topic
owner communications.
Hmm, should we be?
Tiffany Edwards (27:37):
communicating with them?
Are you communicating with themand what are you saying?
Tim Cafferty (27:42):
That's right.
Well, the answers to these andother mysteries will come to you
on the next edition of theVacation Rental Key with TNT.
Thanks, tiff, see you next time.
You're listening to the Vacation Rental Key with
T&T, the podcast for vacationrental managers by vacation
rental managers.
I'm Tim Cafferty and I managetwo companies, one in Virginia
and one in North Carolina.
I'm one of the two T's.
Tiffany Edwards (00:26):
And I'm the other, T Tiffany Edwards, born
and raised in the vacationrental business.
I help manage our familybusinesses from Key West all the
way to Kauai.
Tim Cafferty (00:36):
In the next 30 minutes we're going to give you
our keys to success in thevacation rental business, to
success in the vacation rentalbusiness.
We're back and better than ever.
(00:57):
I'm Tim and I'm Tiffany,Tiffany.
I have had the opportunity tospeak to some folks in the last
week or so about our firstepisode and let's just say we
have people listening.
That's fantastic.
Hello out there.
So our first episode in thebooks and we're here for episode
number two.
We teased it last time.
The knows never agains.
And in our new style, Tiffany'scome up with five, I've come up
(01:21):
with five.
So TNT have come up with 10no's and never's for you today
that we're going to cover inyour vacation rental business.
Tiffany Edwards (01:29):
I'm excited, I'm really excited and I think
we have the scars to prove thatwe've gone through these, and so
I'm very excited to share.
And I do want to say have hadthis experience or have this, no
, never.
It's not too late to make achange.
Tim Cafferty (01:46):
Absolutely.
I'll count mine down in five,four, three, two, one.
You want to do the same?
Tiffany Edwards (01:50):
Yes, absolutely .
Tim Cafferty (01:51):
Do you have an order that you think this is
number one?
Tiffany Edwards (01:55):
I do so from least to the absolute.
No.
Never don't go near the fire.
I've burnt myself too manytimes.
Decision.
Tim Cafferty (02:05):
Great, okay.
So how about if we both giveour fives and fours, and threes
and twos, and we'll build to thecrescendo of our worst at the
last Okay?
Let's do it All right, I'mready.
My number five is guaranteeinganything in terms of promises to
(02:26):
property owners, particularlyrental income I think that is
one that I had to learn the hardway but especially newer
companies and company owners.
I guarantee I can get you 20bookings.
Tiffany Edwards (02:42):
Can you really can get you 20 bookings, can you
really?
It's a sad day when you findout that you can't, and I will
admit we have been in that,because when an area is so
saturated and there's so muchcompetition, you tend to do two
things you lower your managementrate or you create these
guarantees because other peopleare doing it, and the end of the
(03:03):
day it comes out of your pocket.
That's a really good number.
Tim Cafferty (03:06):
Five yeah, you have to write that check.
Here's the other thing.
You may have forgotten aboutthat conversation, but I assure
you the property owner will notforget.
Tiffany Edwards (03:18):
Yes, that's absolutely true, and we tend to
get busy.
So you're looking at revenuemanagement, you're looking at
revenue management, you'relooking at everything that's
coming in, but you're notnecessarily looking at that
exact number, and that can be abig, hefty check to write yes,
okay, that's my number five.
Number five.
So my number five is notreading a contract all the way
(03:39):
through.
So many suppliers come in nowwith a link and you sign the
last page and so you forget thatthere are several more pages
that you need to read through,and usually it's your
cancellation that is of mostimportance and what that date is
, and so I would say again beenburned too many times.
(04:01):
Look through, request theentire contract and make sure
that you read it all the waythrough, and this isn't just for
suppliers, this is also ifyou're in a lease agreement.
So any brick and mortar thatyou enter into, you have really
got to look at that fullcontract and instead of thinking
, oh, this is a good guy I'veknown for so long, read it all
(04:23):
through what your liability is.
Don't just sign the last page.
Tim Cafferty (04:27):
Love that.
I heard some scar tissue inthat comment as well.
I'll give you a real lifeexample on this.
One to the other side, tiffany,my brother is a successful
commercial real estate developerin Washington DC.
He got a letter at the end ofFebruary saying that Doge had
decided they're going to cancelthe lease agreement on the
building that we're leasing foryou, for one of these federal
(04:49):
government agencies and Tom, mybrother.
Tim and Tom my parents were notvery creative on the names, but
Tom pointed out oh no, we havea lease agreement that is
uncancellable until 2029.
So he was actually in theWashington Post twice in the
last couple of weeks about thisand the lease prevailed, believe
(05:12):
it or not.
How about that?
Tiffany Edwards (05:14):
That's great language, and if he hadn't read
it the whole way, he wouldn'thave known.
Tim Cafferty (05:18):
No, I don't think Mr Musk read that section, so
anyway, okay, let's move on.
Number four for me is somethingyou just mentioned matching a
commission that is below yourstandard.
Well, so-and-so says they willdo it for this percent.
I am happy to sign with yourcompany, but you're going to
(05:39):
have to match this commission.
Folks, don't fall into thistrap.
Or, if you do, don't ever planon having an owner's gathering
because you're going to saysomebody go over there, that
owner can't talk to that owner.
That's not a good thing.
Tiffany Edwards (05:59):
No, and Tim, to elaborate a little on that,
because I do think we all asproperty managers, and
especially with our ownerdevelopment, feel like we need
to go a little bit lower.
How do you even pitch that toexplain your expertise and your
services, so that you don't falland you train your team members
(06:20):
to not fall under that trap ofa lower management fee?
Tim Cafferty (06:24):
Absolutely.
I have several sales agentsthat work here and one of them
has been tenured for 25 yearsand this comes up quite a lot in
real estate sales, as you mightimagine, and one of the lines
he uses is oh, I thought youwanted to sell your property,
not just list it for sale Withme, as a professional, this is
(06:44):
what I need to do the jobproperly.
I thought that's great languageand it really speaks to what
you're talking about.
You should have analyzed whatis the appropriate commission
for your company and yourarrangement with any particular
owner, and that should benon-negotiable.
Of course, you can alwaysnegotiate up, but it rarely will
.
Tiffany Edwards (07:03):
You know I remember when my mom first
started we were at 30% and howthe mighty have fallen because
our area is so saturated and youknow we will not go any lower
than what our amount is.
So that's a very good one.
My number four, and it is my,one of my greatest pet peeves.
But when you sign up with asupplier or a vendor or you see
(07:28):
something shiny in the hallwaysof a conference and they say, oh
, it's just $2 per unit or it'sjust $5 per unit, and they
usually grab someone from yourteam who's struggling with an
issue and it's shiny and it'sbright, and they come back to
you to make a decision as theproperty owner or GM and you
(07:53):
fall into this trap.
Well, it's $2, it's $5, but youhaven't done a full audit of
how much you're actually payingto other companies of per dollar
per unit or what you actuallyhave as a software integration
that may be able to provide someof these services.
But my pet peeve on that iswhen I get stuck on a sales call
(08:13):
and I'm not prepared for itbecause I've been told to join
you know this for this greatidea that can help us out, and
then I'm stuck with a $2 or $5per unit conversation.
It doesn't work for me.
You got to audit that stuff.
You got to know how much you'respending per unit.
Tim Cafferty (08:32):
You're talking about a return on investment
here, as well as looking atprograms that you may already
have that are doing somethingvery similar, if not the same
right.
Maybe we're not using what wehave properly.
Tiffany Edwards (08:44):
Totally, and I think so.
I've tried to really coach alot of our team members up that.
If they think that this is sucha great decision, I want them
to do an analysis.
So what exactly is it fixing?
What is the cost in aninvestment?
Because a lot of people don'trealize how much training it's
going to have to provide.
Are you going to have to paymore for your software to
(09:05):
integrate with this product?
How long will this trainingtake?
Also again to your ROI, howmuch more are we building off of
this in terms of efficiency anddriving dollars to the bottom
line?
Tim Cafferty (09:19):
Yeah, $5 a unit doesn't sound like much, but in
my case that's a $24,000 a yearexpenditure.
How exactly are we going to payfor that, right?
Tiffany Edwards (09:30):
And who's managing that?
Tim Cafferty (09:32):
Not me.
Okay, Good one.
I hope you don't mind usholding the mirror up for you
guys out there Don't mean foryou to feel guilty about this.
We're just talking aboutourselves here right, yes,
personal about this.
We're just talking aboutourselves here, right?
Yes, personal, yes, it doesn'thappen to anybody else, I'm sure
.
Okay, my number three on ourcountdown of top five no's and
(09:53):
never again's poor hiringpractices.
You got to have a process,folks.
You need to have an interview,you need to have a second
interview, you might need tohave a third interview.
Make sure you get the rightpeople on the bus and then the
right people in the right seatson the bus.
(10:14):
The only way that happens is ifyou think through that hiring
practice.
Do you have an outside agencythat helps you screen?
Do you have a process or asystem that you work through to
make sure the person is matchedto the position?
Do you even have a jobdescription?
For God's sakes, make sure youhave those check boxes about
where you will advertise whatyou're advertising and then, of
(10:36):
course, when you bring them onboard, making sure that they're
who you think they are andyou're who they think you are.
And so just the whole poorhiring practice.
I hear it all the time Peoplewhining about this person or
that person.
In fact, the matter is theyprobably shouldn't have hired
them in the first place.
Tiffany Edwards (10:54):
Agreed.
And Tim, how often do you bringin your team members to look at
the job description?
Because a lot of times when yourehire someone it's not for the
same position, although it maybe entitled, but the needs may
change.
So how do you integrate some ofthat conversation and not just
make an easy first out of thegate hiring because it's the
(11:18):
middle of high season?
Tim Cafferty (11:20):
Oh right, yeah, and they did a great interview.
Best sales job that person everdid was getting that job.
You know what I'm talking about.
Well, I'm fortunate enough tohave a human resources manager,
so that is the focus of thatposition to make sure those job
descriptions are updated.
But, yes, you need to bring theteam in.
We actually went through anexercise here about a year and a
half ago where every personwrote down what they do.
(11:43):
Then we matched that up with ajob description.
Oh yeah, we forgot about that.
Oh yeah, oh this, oh, they'redoing that.
That's really not a part ofthat job.
So it was enlightening to makesure we got on the right page
there.
But again, it is so temptingyou were talking about the shiny
objects at the conferences it'sso tempting to hire that person
(12:04):
.
Oh my God, if I don't get thisperson, we are going to lose him
, and that is going to be mynext general manager.
They'll be there tomorrow.
Go through the process and geta process.
Tiffany Edwards (12:15):
That's true.
There are so many people thathave come into this industry
that are capable or can learn,who may have a background of
hospitality and to not feel thepressure from yourself or from
other team members to hiresomeone quickly.
Tim Cafferty (12:31):
I don't want to belabor this, but I do have one
other tip on that, a pro tip, akey, if you will.
A few years ago you know SteveTrover from Better Talent, he
hooked me up with the PredictiveIndex.
What a fabulous tool that hasbeen for us, where it is an
assessment of the driving forcesbehind a person, and I have yet
(13:02):
to have a candidate when Iexplain how their profile came
out, I've yet to have acandidate say no, that's not me.
Most of them say oh yeah,that's exactly who I am, and you
get red flags on that Like wow,that is really not what I'm
looking for in this position andit's been a lifesaver for us.
But again, going back to goodhiring practices, Love it.
Tiffany Edwards (13:25):
My number three is, of course, advocacy related
, but it is to absolutely know,or know one elected official or
staff member or be in one degreeseparation of someone who knows
an elected official or staffmember.
So we are located in manydifferent areas around the
(13:48):
country and I may not know a lotof the elected officials, nor
do they care necessarily aboutme because I can't vote in that
area, but I have really strongrelationships with an individual
who is close to someone who isan elected official or someone
who's a staff member, and thereason why that's so important
is because they're the ones whoare going to let you know
(14:08):
proactively if anything ischanging in the area, anything's
bubbling up.
One of the relationships that wedon't take advantage of enough
is a county or city attorney orsomeone who heads up the land
planning.
So we build relationships withsomeone who oversees the
short-term vacation rentallicenses or permits, or we may
(14:31):
have one person on a countycommission or on a city council.
However, an attorney is goingto review all of the language or
a county or city official willgo to them to ask about language
if they're thinking aboutchanging something in an
ordinance, and you'll get thatfirst call.
But the other part of that isthat if you are the one degree
(14:52):
separation, you have to supportthat individual.
So if they call you to show upsomewhere, if they call you to
get owners involved, then youneed to help support them so
they don't feel like they'realone in the fight.
And that has served us very,very well in all of our
businesses.
Tim Cafferty (15:08):
I love the idea of being able to pick up the phone
and call my state legislatorand him answering the phone and
knowing who I am and I can talkintelligently about a subject
and that took me about a decadeto figure out, tiffany, but it
is so valuable, that's a goodone, very good.
Tiffany Edwards (15:28):
Yeah, and everyone gets so intimidated.
But you have to remember thesepoliticians are elected because
you helped them out or you're aconstituent of their area, so
part of their job is to listento you.
Now, they all may not likevacation rentals, but find the
ones that don't know enoughabout it and be the educator for
that, and definitely stay withthe staff, because the staff's
(15:49):
there a lot longer than theelected officials.
Tim Cafferty (15:53):
Donation to the reelection campaign doesn't hurt
either.
Tiffany Edwards (15:57):
Always, always help there.
Put it in the budget.
Tim Cafferty (16:01):
Okay, all right, so we're down to number two on
our top five for each of us, or10 total, if you will, of those,
and never again and I'm tellingyou we did not compare notes
but our number two is so similaryou took it a little further.
So I'm going to start and youcan pick up.
So my no and never for numbertwo is not having a process to
(16:23):
fall back on, whether it beinspections of a property before
a guest arrival, how to handlea lead that comes into your
reservations department, howabout entering a property into
your software system?
Oh no, sally does that.
Well, sally, what exactly doyou do when you enter a property
?
That tribal knowledge thing?
(16:44):
You can't rely on just peopleto figure it out.
You should have a process A toZ, and it is a complete pain in
the.
I understand, but thosestandard operating procedures
about how you do is what makesyour company different than Joe
Schmo down the street who'srenting anything with a door.
Tiffany Edwards (17:04):
And how often do you check those processes?
Because obviously they evolveand they are a pain in the but
how often do you check thoseprocesses with your team members
?
Tim Cafferty (17:15):
Okay, do you want me to give you a true answer?
Tiffany Edwards (17:19):
Let's give a hopeful, aspirational answer.
Tim Cafferty (17:24):
Oh, aspirationally .
Oh yes, we look at thatannually, tiffany, it's reviewed
by a whole staff and wecritique it.
And no fact of the matter is wewent through the process once,
about two years ago.
We have not revisited on aregular basis, but we have
relied on those documents.
As new people come into thefray, you can hand them this
(17:47):
document.
Maybe you'll look it over, handit over, go.
Oh, wait a minute.
We don't do number four anymorebut the others.
That's all good.
The idea is sitting down andworking through this process and
, in fairness, when we did that,we came up with like 180
different processes, so it was abear to get through and, of
course, I assigned it to myassistant.
(18:10):
She was on non-talking termswith me for a while, but we got
it done and it's been veryhelpful.
So I'm sticking with my thoughtthere.
On number two, 180,.
Tiffany Edwards (18:20):
I wouldn't be revisiting that for a while
either.
We're in the middle ofreviewing our hurricane process
and our action plan and I try todo that a little bit more
frequently, but more so if wehave new employees that come in
and they need a little bit moredirection or understanding that
they have to show up becauseyou're a property manager and
(18:40):
you're there as the ownerliaison, so if a hurricane
happens, I expect you to be backin the office.
Tim Cafferty (18:46):
All right.
So how does your number two fitin with that?
Tiffany Edwards (18:49):
So that very, very much mirrors and is
dependent on, I should say, mynumber two, and Ben, my husband,
has phrased this, coined itowns it, but it is to not allow
an employee to hold you hostage,and I have seen too many times.
(19:09):
From visiting other companiesthroughout the years, I have
again touched the stove manytimes on this, and now it is
something we live by.
But we tend to have employeesand keep them on for two reasons
.
One, we build up thisabsolutely beautiful
relationship and we feel guiltyabout not demanding more from
(19:35):
the position, and so we let themstay for longer, or they
oversee an area of our businessthat we don't feel necessarily
comfortable about and they'resiloed.
So I see that a lot in revenuemanagement, I see that a lot in
accounting, and so you believethat they're handling everything
, but you're not really involvedin the ins and outs of that
(19:58):
particular department.
And so if that person were toleave particular department, and
so if that person were to leave, you're in a big mess, and so
we tend to allow those people tostay and have poor behavior or
not live up to the potential ofthe job, because we're too
scared of losing them in thatdepartment, because we're too
(20:18):
dependent on them.
And you know, I was thinkingabout this the other day and
several years ago I listened tothis comedian and he talked
about this couple that needed toget into a breakup and he said
that you know the one individual.
Well, I can't break up with him.
He's got my CDs in his car andso I can't you know, I can't
(20:40):
leave.
It'd be too difficult.
I'm going to take two or threemore years of torture through
this and I think we do the samething.
It's a path of least resistancewhen really it's hurting our
business and usually at thattime that employee doesn't want
to be there anymore.
It's not challenging to them,it's not in the role is out,
either outgrown them or theywant to do something different.
So it's better to just makesure that you're spreading out a
(21:03):
little bit more and you're notbecoming dependent, and we use a
lot of consultants in some ofthose areas to prevent us from
becoming dependent.
Tim Cafferty (21:10):
This coming from the lady who, in episode one,
who said her least favoritething is HR, her number two is
all HR related there, and I havea quick story, as I want to do.
My father-in-law has a favoritesaying Tim, you're not special
and so we're not special when itcomes to this.
And I have an example of that.
My wife and I have a propertyand we're doing some work on it
(21:33):
now and we hired thislandscaping service that she's
very keen on and there's agentleman that works for this
landscaping service who is acomplete tyrant Right, and he is
working at our house and mynext door neighbor, whom I have
never met, somehow thought thatthis gentleman was me Came over
(21:55):
very nicely to introduce herselfand while the landscape work
was going on, she was going toask if we could trim this bush
on the edge of the property linebecause it's blocking her view
when she comes out of thedriveway.
So this guy goes on to talkabout how terrible women drivers
are and that bush ain't on ourproperty.
Lady, you can do whatever theblank you want to do with that
(22:18):
thing and I'm busy, so pleaseget away from me.
Talk about losing business.
And so I address theappropriate people at the
landscaping.
Oh well, you have to understand.
He's so good at what he doesLike really, is he that good
that you just lost like everypossible account for a quarter
(22:38):
of a mile in either direction?
Tiffany Edwards (22:40):
There are a lot of components to a job.
It's not just good at onefactor of it.
And if people are complainingyou might need to listen up To
go back.
You don't to listen up To goback you don't rehire quickly Go
through a process.
Okay, so that brings us drumroll.
Tim Cafferty (22:59):
please our number one no's and never's again on
our list of things you shouldnot do, and that is this is a
double negative.
You should not not train yourstaff to your standards.
We have a lot of sayings aroundhere.
One of them is I would rathertrain you and lose you than not
(23:22):
train you and keep you.
That's number one.
The other one is that if youhave not bothered to train the
person to your standards,whether it be a housekeeper,
maintenance person, reservationsagent or accounting you are
relying on their last employerto be their trainer.
And let me tell you myexperience is typically we have
(23:45):
to untrain people that haveworked for other employers.
No, that's not what we do here,Some of it flat out is illegal
what I've seen people doing.
But if you do not stand forsomething, you will fall for
anything, and not havingstandards of training in place
(24:05):
for whatever job it is is mynumber one pet peeve when it
comes to.
I will never do that again.
Tiffany Edwards (24:12):
How much of that too, tim, is a part of your
culture, because there'straining in the job of what your
standards are, but I know thatyou have developed a pretty
strong culture there.
How much of that is making surethat they understand and they
fit into the culture aspect?
Tim Cafferty (24:27):
It goes back to one of my other things about the
hiring practices.
The last part of our hiringprocess is me.
That's the fourth interview.
I am the culture police.
I want to make sure I feel likethey have a fit here, because
the fact is when I talk abouttraining or whatever, I don't
have to enforce the training Anyof my staff when they see
(24:48):
something that's not being donethe way it should be done.
You know, that's not how we doit here.
We need to do it this waybecause that's the way we found
it works best for our guests andour company, and I think
everybody defends the brand andthat's what I'm getting to.
I guess we all stand for thebrand.
It's not just me.
In fact, in previous podcastswe clearly identified I am not
(25:10):
the face of the company.
It's not just me.
In fact, in previous podcastswe clearly identified I am not
the face of the company.
Tiffany Edwards (25:17):
It's those guys out there in the field and I'm
not necessarily as good on thatHR side, but I think it's
extremely important.
My number one absolutely andnot that I have done this before
(25:40):
, but it is something that wehave always, always lived by is
do not touch your advanceddeposits.
So, tim, you're in a littledifferent place.
In North Carolina.
You have a little bit moreregulations.
Tim Cafferty (25:54):
They have a special place for people that do
that.
In our state it's called jail.
Tiffany Edwards (25:58):
Yes, yes, and in fact, where I'm based in
Florida, there is a lot moregray area.
Although it is illegal, it isnot to the same extent of where
they require some of thatfunding to be like you have in
North Carolina, and I have seentime and time again throughout
(26:21):
the country of people touchingtheir advanced deposits, and I
actually know someone who didhave to go to jail because of it
.
Do not get into that practice.
It will not serve you well atall.
I'm telling you, out of all ofour numbers, that we have gone
from five to one or 10 to one.
This one is a biggie.
(26:42):
If you're doing this, don't doit anymore.
Tim Cafferty (26:45):
That's scary Good one, one I hadn't thought of, to
be quite frank.
So there you have it.
That's our top 10 things thatyou shouldn't be doing.
Do you have some more that wemissed?
Hit us up on Facebook or sendus a message through our website
, thevacationrentalkeywithtntcom.
(27:06):
Anything else up your sleeve,that's good for this week.
What do you think?
Tiffany Edwards (27:10):
I think that's good for this week.
What do you think?
I think that's good.
It's brought up so manymemories of problems and things
I've had to go through.
I might need a nice long bathand a glass of wine after this.
Tim Cafferty (27:21):
You were going to do that anyway, you can't fool
me.
Okay, all right, next time wehave a podcast coming back to
you in two weeks, and next timewe have another popular topic
owner communications.
Hmm, should we be?
Tiffany Edwards (27:37):
communicating with them?
Are you communicating with themand what are you saying?
Tim Cafferty (27:42):
That's right.
Well, the answers to these andother mysteries will come to you
on the next edition of theVacation Rental Key with TNT.
Thanks, tiff, see you next time.
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UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!