December 14, 2023 • 80 mins
Join us in this inspiring and informative episode of "The V.City podcast with Peter Ojum," where we dive into the fascinating journey of Emmanuel, a software engineer at Apple. Peter Ojum engages Emmanuel in a candid conversation about the realities of breaking into the tech industry, specifically landing a coveted position at Apple.
You will be captivated as Emmanuel reveals his unique path, from the struggles of securing internships to navigating through various tech roles. This episode is a goldmine for anyone curious about the intricate steps involved in securing a job at a top tech firm. Emmanuel's experiences provide an authentic perspective on the challenges and triumphs encountered along the way.
The discussion takes a deep dive into the demanding interview process at Apple. Emmanuel shares his personal challenges and the strategies he adopted to overcome them. This segment is particularly insightful for listeners preparing for tech interviews or those curious about what it takes to impress a global tech giant in a job interview.
Additionally, Peter prompts Emmanuel to share his advice for aspirants in the tech field. Emmanuel responds with valuable guidance, elaborating on the fundamental steps to building successful applications. His expertise shines through as he provides practical tips for tech entrepreneurs and app developers, emphasizing the importance of creating secure and breach-resistant applications.
Whether you're a budding tech enthusiast, an aspiring software engineer, or just curious about the inner workings of the tech industry, this episode is packed with firsthand insights, practical advice, and inspiring stories. Tune in and take a step closer to understanding the journey to a successful career in tech or at a FAANG company. Don't miss out on this opportunity to learn from Emmanuel's journey and gain invaluable insights into making your mark in the world of technology.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello,
everyone.
Welcome again to the V podcast.
My name is Peter Ojo.
And,
ah,
today we have a very interesting guest.
A friend of mine that I met in Canada.
Uh We worked together,
we had fun together,
we had lunch together,
we went to university together and we even studied together and it's crazy how life works and how things move.
(00:26):
Uh Recently I reconnected with Emmanuel who's on the call with us today and it wasn't just any kind of reconnecting.
We kicked it off just as though there was no time that had passed and our lives have brought us to work in the same industry and uh our paths have crossed again.
(00:47):
And so we discussed about using this opportunity to talk about our journey,
specifically Emmanuel's journey and see what it is that we can give back to the community to those who are looking for a career in technology.
I say this because Emmanuel is currently a software engineer at Apple and there's a lot that we can learn from his journey to that position.
(01:13):
Beyond that,
beyond the corporate world,
there are lots of challenges that he went through that would be inspiring to you listeners.
So,
with all of that said Emmanuel,
welcome.
And I wanna ask you to introduce yourself.
Tell us,
who is Emmanuel?
Who are you?
And what are you doing today?
(02:37):
Mhm.
(03:04):
Mhm.
Co op.
(03:42):
Mhm hm.
(04:07):
You know,
it's interesting how,
I don't know if you were in,
I don't know exactly if you were in the audience and I don't think you were at that time.
But someone actually said what you just said at the computer science,
there was like a gathering where they bring all the students together and they're talking about co ops.
Well,
it's called Co Op in Canada.
But in the United States,
(04:27):
it's an internship and we're like,
you do these internships and uh um you might realize I actually like this stuff or you might realize I do not like what I'm studying and that is really truly the beauty of internship.
So I'm really happy that not only were you able to,
I'm glad that you're not,
not only were you able to find something in your field,
(04:49):
but you were like,
this is what I want to do for my career.
I actually enjoy this.
I can wake up every morning to do this.
So if you're listening and perhaps you're in high school or college,
an internship is not a bad idea if you get the opportunity.
So,
thanks for sharing.
Um and telling us a little bit about your journey.
Do you want to give us some insight within a reasonable range as to what it was like on your journey to Apple and what it's like at Apple today,
(05:23):
like the day in the life as a software engineer specifically because,
because there are many positions right there in,
in,
in the,
in,
in Silicon Valley,
in,
in tech,
in general,
there's so many things that you can do.
And that's one thing that I actually like to point out you don't have to be a software engineer.
You don't have to be programming in Java or C or,
(05:44):
or any other language full time to be in tech,
which was something that I didn't realize in this at the very beginning in college,
I kind of thought,
I don't think I can make it if I can't,
if I can't program.
So tell me about that journey to Apple and uh and what it's like today.
(06:12):
Mhm.
Mhm.
(06:34):
Mhm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
(06:56):
Mhm.
Ok.
(07:17):
Mhm.
Yeah.
(07:45):
Mhm.
Yeah.
Correct.
It is,
(08:13):
you know,
you get those emails,
right?
You get those like,
I don't know if you get them,
I get some of them sometimes and you get a lot of you check the company and sometimes it doesn't check out or it doesn't,
you're not sure about the veracity of what you're reading,
but go ahead.
I understand that hesitation.
(08:51):
Mhm.
(09:30):
Yeah.
(09:52):
Mhm.
(10:26):
Mhm.
(11:32):
Mhm.
(11:57):
Mhm.
(12:39):
So just to reiterate what you said,
right?
Apple is like the milky way and there's lots of different planets and if you're on earth,
there's countries,
there's nations,
there's continents and you need to think about it on a grand scale.
How does my work in the United States affect the rest of the planet and even more so affect the galaxy that we're in because other planets are going to benefit from the level of work that I do.
(13:06):
Does that sound in terms of the orgs and groups and the entire company as a,
as a large global company?
(13:49):
Mhm.
Mhm.
Yes.
And,
and why for those listening and wondering why would that be unique?
I should be able to find what I need.
Lots of large organizations are siloed and Earth does not talk with Mars and Mars does not talk with Venus,
(14:09):
et cetera and even on earth,
uh Ame,
the United States has no very little if any relationship with Canada,
right?
And,
and so if you needed something that only Canada can provide,
no,
nobody knows what to do to get in touch with someone in Canada to help you do your job,
so you're kind of stuck and you have to invent the wheel.
(14:30):
And so for a company to be lean and have processes in place uh to make sure you're sure that if you need to connect with Canada or you need to connect with Mars,
there is a process and a way for you to do that is not very common,
right?
Would,
would you agree with that.
I actually wanna see.
Go ahead actually,
go ahead.
(15:37):
Hm.
So,
so I would you say the opportunities are there?
It depends on how you're able to take care of the opportunities or,
or,
or,
or is this dependent outside?
(15:58):
I just want to know whether it's connected to you as a person or if it's beyond your reach like you have,
this is something that is not your fault.
If you can't get information,
I see.
OK.
(16:20):
Mhm Yeah.
But but but what you're saying to me sounds just like and I may be wrong,
right?
I don't work at Apple but asking the right questions if you don't ask questions,
even if your company is hyper lean or agile or or or even siloed,
(16:43):
you will have you'll go nowhere if you expect it to be on your table.
That's my philosophy,
at least like if you expect every single package that you need every permission that you require to do your position to do your job to be on your table,
on the platter of gold,
then you're probably not going to get as much done.
That's my understanding.
However,
(17:04):
you know,
I wanna pause for as I can and rewind because we didn't really cover much about your journey.
But if you could succinctly put it into a few sentences as to what would make because there are many people who want to work at Apple,
right?
So you are in essence a specimen.
And not just that an inspiration to so many people who have this as their dream.
(17:26):
I mean,
you have and customers who their dream is to have an apple product and they,
they would line outside,
outside the,
the,
the store to,
to get the newest iphone or whatever the the device may be.
So imagine people who actually even wants to work there,
they're putting in their time and effort and energy.
So what would be your advice?
(17:46):
And I could,
I could extrapolate from what you've already said,
right?
You worked at a couple of different companies,
you honed your skills,
you um you studied and you had your linkedin all prepared.
There's a lot of things you said,
but if you were to bring it down and give some good advice to someone who's out sitting on the outside going man one day,
I'll work at Apple.
What would that advice be?
(18:07):
And you could specify to software engineering or keep it vague?
(19:05):
Mhm.
(19:35):
Mhm.
Mhm.
Tell me a little bit about owning your craft.
What does that look like to you?
The the others are quite clear but on your craft can mean a lot of things.
So if you can put it from the perspective of a software engineer,
(19:58):
what does that look like for,
for Emmanuel?
Mhm.
(20:42):
Mhm.
(21:27):
Mhm.
OK.
(21:53):
Mhm Soft skills.
OK.
Thank you.
That was very good.
And that was,
(22:14):
that was what I wanted to hear in terms of the level of depth and insight because owning your craft,
like you said,
could mean,
just being good at what you do.
But that's not enough.
You talked about the other side of it,
which is connections,
networking and people management,
which is not always fun for people who maybe,
(22:35):
maybe introverted or that's really not their space,
they just,
you know,
but when it comes to working,
we tend to usually it's twice called work,
right?
Not,
not something else.
And so we tend to get into places that are slightly uncomfortable for us.
So I appreciate you sharing that.
Now,
uh we've talked a little bit about your journey to Apple,
(22:57):
uh what you're doing in Apple and um you know,
advice for people who are,
who want to get into Apple or in really your advice was really for people who are looking to get into tech in general,
but it's not just for Apple.
Um But here,
here's something I wanted to find out from you,
which is what is one challenge and,
(23:18):
you know,
you can give me a story here or something to that level.
But what is the challenge you faced on this journey,
whether prior to Apple or in Apple?
Probably preferable um at Apple,
but a challenge you faced and what are some of the skills that you used to overcome those challenges?
Because when we give those kind of examples,
(23:38):
whether it's a project or,
or,
or something of that nature.
It helps to bring to life what is,
what would be generic because we can say work hard.
Ok.
What does that really mean?
Right.
I,
I did my best,
you know?
Ok.
But when you were able to kind of,
so I'm looking for a,
(23:58):
one of those challenges because we all face challenges at work and work goes up and down.
Right.
Sometimes it's really difficult and sometimes it's like this is the best thing ever.
(24:37):
Mhm.
Mhm.
(25:20):
Mhm Yeah.
(25:47):
Mhm hm.
(26:30):
Yeah.
Mhm Yeah.
(26:55):
Mhm.
Yes.
Mhm.
(27:16):
Mhm.
Yes.
Hm.
Hm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
(28:30):
Yes.
Yes.
(28:57):
Mhm.
(35:16):
Yeah.
I mean,
first of all,
thank you.
You,
you were on a roll like you have,
you,
you know,
those,
there's always those students in high school that the teacher says write an essay on XYZ and they just do a great job.
They,
you know,
o on answering that question and I think that's what you did.
(35:37):
You,
I'm just trying,
trying to reiterate some of the things you mentioned.
But talking about the interview process,
I had a few thoughts on that but I wanted you to really get to where you were going and you got there and you talked about the importance of feedback and being honest,
all those things,
I hope that I,
I know,
I don't just hope,
I know people,
I believe people will take a lot of value from it because it's not just for Apple,
(36:01):
this is for any major any corporation in fact.
And uh I've been in those interviews as well and saying,
I don't know,
is painful,
especially when you've prepared so much.
But sometimes you just have to,
to be honest and,
and let the ego out of the way and say,
I really don't know this,
(36:22):
but I'm open to learn.
So I want to thank you for sharing all that information already.
So I appreciate that.
Um There's something I'm going to go to from when you were talking about being involved with developers that I want to transition to.
But I'll respond to your question about uh my background and the challenges that I faced.
So currently I'm working in the security space.
(36:42):
So I do mostly cloud security uh specifically for Microsoft products and I interface with clients.
So I work mostly with large corporations in the United States and around the world as well.
And the one of the biggest skill set that is unspoken of is the people skill set because you can come into those meetings and you have uh an executive director in front of you,
(37:10):
of X corporation saying ah we were using this security product before and now we want to move to this security product.
These were the issues we had and this is what we're looking to solve the problem.
We need a solution to bridge these gaps.
If you just only know the technical stuff,
you probably won't convince them to spend the enormous amount of money that you're prepared to spend.
(37:35):
You have to be able to here between the lines.
What really the company is struggling with because sometimes it's not even that they're struggling,
it might be more of an economic thing.
They're not necessarily struggling with,
uh,
uh,
a technical issue.
They're actually really telling you that the previous product was too expensive or they're telling you that this seems to be the sentiment of the board and they want to just move in that direction.
(38:06):
So you wanna make sure you can hear,
listen through the lines.
And then when you respond,
you wanna respond,
saying I get you,
I hear what you're saying between the lines and this is what we can do to help that situation.
So for instance,
sometimes we go in and saying,
well,
Microsoft has the E five license,
it's a very expensive license.
(38:27):
Uh And it's gonna cost X amount of money when you implement it.
We can use Sentinel um as your,
as you know,
as your scene tool or so tool.
And if you want to implement Defender for office for your entire organization globally,
this is how long it's going to take,
but that's not really what they're asking.
You can go in and be like,
OK,
you know,
I hear what you're saying.
Uh we'd also have the F five license,
(38:50):
we have the E three license,
we have these other licenses that could get you this this and this and it's not going to be the E FIVE license,
but it will solve,
if I'm hearing you correctly,
it will solve the situation.
You're,
you're going at,
you're not having a technical conversation at this point.
This is diplomacy and I did,
you know,
but my role is a technical role.
(39:10):
Do you see how my skill set in computer science,
technology,
it and security is not what would have gotten us that,
that deal it is the ability to listen and regurgitate according to what this director is asking for.
So that's one of the things that I quickly found out and I started to be very,
(39:35):
very mindful of that.
So that's,
that's one of them does,
does that kind of answer one of some of your your question?
Mhm.
(40:27):
Mhm.
(40:47):
Mhm.
Mhm.
(41:21):
Thank you.
Yes.
(41:42):
Correct.
Yes,
I agree with the networking part with your colleagues and no one,
you know,
I've been on.
So II I give this story.
So we,
we were doing recruiting and I was part of the recruiting team.
We're going,
you know,
and um I was talking with no,
II,
I tried to find time to talk with someone who was senior,
(42:05):
very senior in my uh in the,
in that,
in that we had,
we traveled somewhere to,
to do this whole recruiting thing event and him and I were just having lunch.
I mean,
I,
I saw that he was having lunch by himself,
went to meet him,
talked to him.
Next thing you know,
I'm asking him what he's up to what he's doing in the office.
And he told me about this,
uh this great opportunity that he's working on and these people he's talking to.
(42:28):
And the next thing you know,
he asked me,
hey,
I'm looking for uh X person who has ex skills that can help with this new opportunity that we're,
we're,
we're,
we're producing it.
It's a big opportunity too.
And I just,
I fit like 90% of that skill set.
Maybe not all of it.
I was like,
hey,
well,
(42:48):
interesting enough,
I've worked on a project that was like this and he's like,
ok,
well,
well,
I mean,
I'll let you know.
Right.
And that's the idea of networking.
It's just people are you talk with them,
you break the ice and you find out what you genuinely care about what they're doing,
right?
You're not just talking for the sake of talking.
(43:09):
It's not,
I wanna get something from you just how are you doing,
what's going on?
And then from that you build a relationship and they will remember you um if something is necessarily needed,
right?
But even beyond that,
where I'm actually getting at is that you might realize that there's another position or there's another variant of your position somewhere in the company that you could,
(43:33):
your specific skill sets could fill,
I'll give you the,
I kind of told you this before the call.
But I do,
my position has nothing to do with the marketing in my company.
Nothing but from talking with people,
I realize we're working on this product.
We're building this,
we're building that.
And I was like,
hey,
you know,
would you guys like for me to make a,
(43:53):
a quick video on this idea that that's brewing it like?
Yeah,
sure.
Are you sure you can do it?
So,
yeah,
I,
I used to do this a long time ago and I still do it today so I can help out.
Ok.
Now I helped out I made the video,
they loved it and that opened up a whole new broadened position for me.
You know,
that I'm now fulfilling in co in conjunction with what I already do,
(44:18):
right?
That it broadens my sphere of influence,
it broadens the people I connect with the people I know and also lets people know that there's a certain level of visibility just because I was able to realize from con con conversations that there is a skill set that I have that is outside our scope of work that can fill out,
fill something up in the company.
(44:39):
So when you connect with people and talk,
you realize what I can do,
I can help with that,
you know,
and that gives you that visibility and helps you grow.
That's my perspective on it.
(45:06):
Mhm mhm Yeah.
(45:52):
Mhm Correct.
(46:21):
Mhm mhm Yeah.
And there are many I CS that,
I mean,
I know quite a few I CS who are,
I mean,
people listen to them as though they're managers because they,
(46:43):
they body that role so well.
But they don't want the responsibilities that they,
well,
I don't want to use the word responsibilities.
They don't want the extra baggage that comes with the actual title of being a manager that's not their personality.
Um So they prefer the IC role.
Um However,
they do very well in the space of mentorship advice,
uh counseling,
(47:04):
in owning things and explaining things to people.
And so you see them really blossoming that IC and I'm very happy that a lot of companies have recognized that not everyone wants to be a manager.
Some people really love the technology and that's what they want to do,
but that doesn't,
that should not stunt their growth,
you know.
Um So I actually want to ask you about developers and products,
(47:28):
right?
So you're working in Apple and you're working with developers,
your,
your ears on the ground,
listening to their concerns as well as the issues you may have in your code base.
So I want to give an example,
let's say you uh there's,
there is a company that's looking to create an app and I uh or let's just say there's a young young guy who's trying to make an app,
(47:53):
put it on the app store.
And let's say this app is like Z,
uh,
do you know the,
uh,
what's it called?
The Autotrader app,
for instance?
Yeah.
So,
uh,
basically something,
something like that seems like a start up.
Um,
I think Carvana,
I don't know if they have an app right now but basically they're trying to do something that would change the industry,
(48:17):
something that wasn't done normally before.
What is some of the advice you would give to them that would allow them to actually be able to get to that point of deploying their application in the APP store.
(48:40):
Mhm Where did you say this resource was?
(52:16):
What,
what,
what is the name of the resource for the for the entrepreneurs,
the you said?
OK.
Mm OK.
(54:01):
OK.
So right now you've given some insight on,
on resources on the other side of it when it comes to entrepreneurship and developers,
you know,
back at school,
there were,
there's always like a group of three or four guys who had like an idea that you wanted to,
to launch and um and a professor would come alongside them and maybe use it for their capstone,
(54:24):
whatever the case may be.
What is some of your experience in terms of going through the hurdles of entrepreneurship?
Because I've been in that space before and I know how difficult it can be.
So you know that you are able to kind of see it from a different angle.
What are some of the things to keep in mind for new entrepreneurs and new developers.
(58:34):
Well,
you know,
you've talked about it,
architect,
architecture,
and that's partially what I do for the most part actually is a,
is a huge part of what I do.
So that makes me want to ask you a little bit about security.
I mean,
um I'm big on the importance of security in,
in the,
in the world we live in today because data is so easily accessible and a lot of people are not aware of how to protect their data.
(58:57):
And we put a lot of data into our applications every day.
What are some of the things that developers need to keep in mind so that their customers can actually feel comfortable to put in sensitive data into these applications that are on our phones today.
(01:01:52):
Mhm So you talked about multi factor authentication,
which is great and you talked about uh encryption um which when it comes to you,
if you don't know the answer to that,
that's fine as well.
Let's say,
you know how banks have access to very personal data.
(01:02:13):
If you know what are some of the encryption techniques um that or other kinds of security techniques that we need to keep in mind when it comes to building these applications or we talked about a secure database as well?
What are some of the I just wanted you to go a little bit low level before we wrap up?
(01:05:03):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Yeah,
you definitely thank you.
I appreciate it.
You know,
sometimes it's easy,
not easy,
but it's nice for us.
It's great for us to talk about high level stuff,
the journey,
the procedure,
but we're in a technical field and that's something that I'm working on.
We,
we,
you and I talked about it a little bit earlier but uh we will have some more technical facing podcast and discussions where we go a little bit deeper.
(01:05:29):
But I also don't want to alienate the audience that is looking to the,
the student who wants to get into,
to,
to a tech company or the entrepreneur who just wants to get their mind around what it takes to build an app right before we start talking about an actual code base or SDKS,
we don't want to alienate them because they can look at it and like in an interview,
(01:05:52):
like this is out of my breath,
I'm just,
I'm not even interested.
So I need to make sure that that's why I try to be careful as to not jump into that level of detail too quickly.
But we will um I appreciate all the answers you've given me.
We have a few more minutes left and I have to talk about this because it's the buzzword of the year.
(01:06:13):
What is your thought or what are your thoughts on artificial intelligence?
And what is your experience so far with it to the best of what you can tell us yes.
(01:08:37):
Gemini just came out.
Mhm.
(01:09:30):
Multimodal.
Yeah.
Correct.
Mhm.
It's 1000 worth 1000 words.
(01:09:53):
Yes.
Ok.
(01:11:29):
Mhm.
Correct.
It reminds me of um,
yeah,
most people have,
well,
not most people but a lot of people have seen Iron Man.
Right.
So Jarvis was not Siri,
right.
That,
that,
that was Jarvis was really,
(01:11:51):
if you think about it,
a large language model that was multimodal,
that could see and understand Mr Stark's context and give him the best advice or at least carry out the tasks he needed specified to his customized requirements.
Um So you're right in terms of the level that it's going to and I think that's,
(01:12:17):
it will also,
I mean,
Microsoft has github Copilot now um which,
which really helps with programming.
So imagine if we had that in college,
I mean that all those exams and all those not even exams,
the homework.
My goodness because you know how um I know that there was,
there were times where I would go to Sam for instance and be like,
look,
I need help with this in this,
(01:12:39):
in this homework,
et cetera and it's not always easy,
but now with help copilot and you were talking about the enterprise value,
there is a security copilot and a couple of other integrated large language models that if you have,
I believe either the E five license or above.
Um You can actually and put it around your company where it's stays within your data,
(01:12:59):
stays within your company.
But let's say you,
you missed a meeting.
You can ask what was this,
what was summarized in that meeting?
And it gives you a good context for your job,
right?
Like this is what you miss and these are the tasks that they ask that you would,
you should do.
And uh there's a lot you have your SharePoint or your data repositories and you can,
you can look for context like,
(01:13:21):
OK,
we have so many documents in this folder.
Um I would,
I'm actually looking to find out whether Emmanuel had uh had purchased X item,
you know,
in the last couple of years.
And how can that inform me about whether he will um purchase more items?
(01:13:41):
This Christmas,
right?
That,
that's pretty amazing.
And um I don't know how much you've,
you've interacted with them.
But um what would you say that people who are looking to get,
how can people who are looking to get into the tech industry optimize these tools that are available to pursue their dreams and then we can wrap up on that.
(01:14:44):
Mhm Yeah.
(01:16:11):
And you Exactly.
And you,
you just talked about Swift U I.
Instead of going to learn Swift U I from scratch,
you can actually query Bard or Chat GP T and it will give you some kind of stepping stone to start pursuing your prototype for your I APP idea,
(01:16:33):
right?
So there's that and um I will say that we still need to verify just in terms of the technical part because I've worked with some of these things to,
you know,
give me this program that does this so I can or,
or debug this code or whatever the case is.
And A either he doesn't fully understand the context or B it uses something that should work but does not work,
(01:17:00):
right?
Like there is no such thing as this particular parameter.
But when you look at the parameter,
it looks like it should exist.
And so you gotta be careful to go over your,
your what you,
what is uh A I generated,
right?
(01:17:24):
Yes.
Word.
Mhm.
(01:17:54):
Mhm.
(01:18:14):
Mhm.
Mhm.
Correct.
(01:18:39):
Mhm.
Well,
that's good.
I mean,
we can talk about A I for another hour,
but thank you for,
for the insights you gave there.
I,
so we've come to the end of our,
of our podcast here and it's been a pleasure to talk with you Emmanuel,
you know,
hear your journey,
how you got to apple some of the challenges you faced.
And I really believe that listeners will be blessed and you know,
(01:19:03):
they will gain value from,
from your journey.
And I hope to have you again and you know,
sometime soon and we can talk about some other aspects of the tech career system and what we can do to improve our quality of life and actually be able to enjoy what we do because and I wrap up with this.
(01:19:27):
It is one thing to want to have a job in the tech industry.
It's another thing to wake up every morning happy that you're doing what you're doing.
And I really hope that for everyone who's listening that even when you do get your job in tech or tech adjacent,
it doesn't have to be necessarily in tech,
but it could be tech adjacent that you enjoy what you do because that's most likely where you'll do your best work.
(01:19:54):
So with that said,
thank you,
Emmanuel.
And I hope that uh the listeners will be back for our next conversation and I appreciate your help today.
Thank you everyone for listening and uh we'll see you next time.
Bye for now.
Hello,
everyone.
Welcome again to the V podcast.
My name is Peter Ojo.
And,
ah,
today we have a very interesting guest.
A friend of mine that I met in Canada.
Uh We worked together,
we had fun together,
we had lunch together,
we went to university together and we even studied together and it's crazy how life works and how things move.
(00:26):
Uh Recently I reconnected with Emmanuel who's on the call with us today and it wasn't just any kind of reconnecting.
We kicked it off just as though there was no time that had passed and our lives have brought us to work in the same industry and uh our paths have crossed again.
(00:47):
And so we discussed about using this opportunity to talk about our journey,
specifically Emmanuel's journey and see what it is that we can give back to the community to those who are looking for a career in technology.
I say this because Emmanuel is currently a software engineer at Apple and there's a lot that we can learn from his journey to that position.
(01:13):
Beyond that,
beyond the corporate world,
there are lots of challenges that he went through that would be inspiring to you listeners.
So,
with all of that said Emmanuel,
welcome.
And I wanna ask you to introduce yourself.
Tell us,
who is Emmanuel?
Who are you?
And what are you doing today?
(02:37):
Mhm.
(03:04):
Mhm.
Co op.
(03:42):
Mhm hm.
(04:07):
You know,
it's interesting how,
I don't know if you were in,
I don't know exactly if you were in the audience and I don't think you were at that time.
But someone actually said what you just said at the computer science,
there was like a gathering where they bring all the students together and they're talking about co ops.
Well,
it's called Co Op in Canada.
But in the United States,
(04:27):
it's an internship and we're like,
you do these internships and uh um you might realize I actually like this stuff or you might realize I do not like what I'm studying and that is really truly the beauty of internship.
So I'm really happy that not only were you able to,
I'm glad that you're not,
not only were you able to find something in your field,
(04:49):
but you were like,
this is what I want to do for my career.
I actually enjoy this.
I can wake up every morning to do this.
So if you're listening and perhaps you're in high school or college,
an internship is not a bad idea if you get the opportunity.
So,
thanks for sharing.
Um and telling us a little bit about your journey.
Do you want to give us some insight within a reasonable range as to what it was like on your journey to Apple and what it's like at Apple today,
(05:23):
like the day in the life as a software engineer specifically because,
because there are many positions right there in,
in,
in the,
in,
in Silicon Valley,
in,
in tech,
in general,
there's so many things that you can do.
And that's one thing that I actually like to point out you don't have to be a software engineer.
You don't have to be programming in Java or C or,
(05:44):
or any other language full time to be in tech,
which was something that I didn't realize in this at the very beginning in college,
I kind of thought,
I don't think I can make it if I can't,
if I can't program.
So tell me about that journey to Apple and uh and what it's like today.
(06:12):
Mhm.
Mhm.
(06:34):
Mhm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
(06:56):
Mhm.
Ok.
(07:17):
Mhm.
Yeah.
(07:45):
Mhm.
Yeah.
Correct.
It is,
(08:13):
you know,
you get those emails,
right?
You get those like,
I don't know if you get them,
I get some of them sometimes and you get a lot of you check the company and sometimes it doesn't check out or it doesn't,
you're not sure about the veracity of what you're reading,
but go ahead.
I understand that hesitation.
(08:51):
Mhm.
(09:30):
Yeah.
(09:52):
Mhm.
(10:26):
Mhm.
(11:32):
Mhm.
(11:57):
Mhm.
(12:39):
So just to reiterate what you said,
right?
Apple is like the milky way and there's lots of different planets and if you're on earth,
there's countries,
there's nations,
there's continents and you need to think about it on a grand scale.
How does my work in the United States affect the rest of the planet and even more so affect the galaxy that we're in because other planets are going to benefit from the level of work that I do.
(13:06):
Does that sound in terms of the orgs and groups and the entire company as a,
as a large global company?
(13:49):
Mhm.
Mhm.
Yes.
And,
and why for those listening and wondering why would that be unique?
I should be able to find what I need.
Lots of large organizations are siloed and Earth does not talk with Mars and Mars does not talk with Venus,
(14:09):
et cetera and even on earth,
uh Ame,
the United States has no very little if any relationship with Canada,
right?
And,
and so if you needed something that only Canada can provide,
no,
nobody knows what to do to get in touch with someone in Canada to help you do your job,
so you're kind of stuck and you have to invent the wheel.
(14:30):
And so for a company to be lean and have processes in place uh to make sure you're sure that if you need to connect with Canada or you need to connect with Mars,
there is a process and a way for you to do that is not very common,
right?
Would,
would you agree with that.
I actually wanna see.
Go ahead actually,
go ahead.
(15:37):
Hm.
So,
so I would you say the opportunities are there?
It depends on how you're able to take care of the opportunities or,
or,
or,
or is this dependent outside?
(15:58):
I just want to know whether it's connected to you as a person or if it's beyond your reach like you have,
this is something that is not your fault.
If you can't get information,
I see.
OK.
(16:20):
Mhm Yeah.
But but but what you're saying to me sounds just like and I may be wrong,
right?
I don't work at Apple but asking the right questions if you don't ask questions,
even if your company is hyper lean or agile or or or even siloed,
(16:43):
you will have you'll go nowhere if you expect it to be on your table.
That's my philosophy,
at least like if you expect every single package that you need every permission that you require to do your position to do your job to be on your table,
on the platter of gold,
then you're probably not going to get as much done.
That's my understanding.
However,
(17:04):
you know,
I wanna pause for as I can and rewind because we didn't really cover much about your journey.
But if you could succinctly put it into a few sentences as to what would make because there are many people who want to work at Apple,
right?
So you are in essence a specimen.
And not just that an inspiration to so many people who have this as their dream.
(17:26):
I mean,
you have and customers who their dream is to have an apple product and they,
they would line outside,
outside the,
the,
the store to,
to get the newest iphone or whatever the the device may be.
So imagine people who actually even wants to work there,
they're putting in their time and effort and energy.
So what would be your advice?
(17:46):
And I could,
I could extrapolate from what you've already said,
right?
You worked at a couple of different companies,
you honed your skills,
you um you studied and you had your linkedin all prepared.
There's a lot of things you said,
but if you were to bring it down and give some good advice to someone who's out sitting on the outside going man one day,
I'll work at Apple.
What would that advice be?
(18:07):
And you could specify to software engineering or keep it vague?
(19:05):
Mhm.
(19:35):
Mhm.
Mhm.
Tell me a little bit about owning your craft.
What does that look like to you?
The the others are quite clear but on your craft can mean a lot of things.
So if you can put it from the perspective of a software engineer,
(19:58):
what does that look like for,
for Emmanuel?
Mhm.
(20:42):
Mhm.
(21:27):
Mhm.
OK.
(21:53):
Mhm Soft skills.
OK.
Thank you.
That was very good.
And that was,
(22:14):
that was what I wanted to hear in terms of the level of depth and insight because owning your craft,
like you said,
could mean,
just being good at what you do.
But that's not enough.
You talked about the other side of it,
which is connections,
networking and people management,
which is not always fun for people who maybe,
(22:35):
maybe introverted or that's really not their space,
they just,
you know,
but when it comes to working,
we tend to usually it's twice called work,
right?
Not,
not something else.
And so we tend to get into places that are slightly uncomfortable for us.
So I appreciate you sharing that.
Now,
uh we've talked a little bit about your journey to Apple,
(22:57):
uh what you're doing in Apple and um you know,
advice for people who are,
who want to get into Apple or in really your advice was really for people who are looking to get into tech in general,
but it's not just for Apple.
Um But here,
here's something I wanted to find out from you,
which is what is one challenge and,
(23:18):
you know,
you can give me a story here or something to that level.
But what is the challenge you faced on this journey,
whether prior to Apple or in Apple?
Probably preferable um at Apple,
but a challenge you faced and what are some of the skills that you used to overcome those challenges?
Because when we give those kind of examples,
(23:38):
whether it's a project or,
or,
or something of that nature.
It helps to bring to life what is,
what would be generic because we can say work hard.
Ok.
What does that really mean?
Right.
I,
I did my best,
you know?
Ok.
But when you were able to kind of,
so I'm looking for a,
(23:58):
one of those challenges because we all face challenges at work and work goes up and down.
Right.
Sometimes it's really difficult and sometimes it's like this is the best thing ever.
(24:37):
Mhm.
Mhm.
(25:20):
Mhm Yeah.
(25:47):
Mhm hm.
(26:30):
Yeah.
Mhm Yeah.
(26:55):
Mhm.
Yes.
Mhm.
(27:16):
Mhm.
Yes.
Hm.
Hm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
(28:30):
Yes.
Yes.
(28:57):
Mhm.
(35:16):
Yeah.
I mean,
first of all,
thank you.
You,
you were on a roll like you have,
you,
you know,
those,
there's always those students in high school that the teacher says write an essay on XYZ and they just do a great job.
They,
you know,
o on answering that question and I think that's what you did.
(35:37):
You,
I'm just trying,
trying to reiterate some of the things you mentioned.
But talking about the interview process,
I had a few thoughts on that but I wanted you to really get to where you were going and you got there and you talked about the importance of feedback and being honest,
all those things,
I hope that I,
I know,
I don't just hope,
I know people,
I believe people will take a lot of value from it because it's not just for Apple,
(36:01):
this is for any major any corporation in fact.
And uh I've been in those interviews as well and saying,
I don't know,
is painful,
especially when you've prepared so much.
But sometimes you just have to,
to be honest and,
and let the ego out of the way and say,
I really don't know this,
(36:22):
but I'm open to learn.
So I want to thank you for sharing all that information already.
So I appreciate that.
Um There's something I'm going to go to from when you were talking about being involved with developers that I want to transition to.
But I'll respond to your question about uh my background and the challenges that I faced.
So currently I'm working in the security space.
(36:42):
So I do mostly cloud security uh specifically for Microsoft products and I interface with clients.
So I work mostly with large corporations in the United States and around the world as well.
And the one of the biggest skill set that is unspoken of is the people skill set because you can come into those meetings and you have uh an executive director in front of you,
(37:10):
of X corporation saying ah we were using this security product before and now we want to move to this security product.
These were the issues we had and this is what we're looking to solve the problem.
We need a solution to bridge these gaps.
If you just only know the technical stuff,
you probably won't convince them to spend the enormous amount of money that you're prepared to spend.
(37:35):
You have to be able to here between the lines.
What really the company is struggling with because sometimes it's not even that they're struggling,
it might be more of an economic thing.
They're not necessarily struggling with,
uh,
uh,
a technical issue.
They're actually really telling you that the previous product was too expensive or they're telling you that this seems to be the sentiment of the board and they want to just move in that direction.
(38:06):
So you wanna make sure you can hear,
listen through the lines.
And then when you respond,
you wanna respond,
saying I get you,
I hear what you're saying between the lines and this is what we can do to help that situation.
So for instance,
sometimes we go in and saying,
well,
Microsoft has the E five license,
it's a very expensive license.
(38:27):
Uh And it's gonna cost X amount of money when you implement it.
We can use Sentinel um as your,
as you know,
as your scene tool or so tool.
And if you want to implement Defender for office for your entire organization globally,
this is how long it's going to take,
but that's not really what they're asking.
You can go in and be like,
OK,
you know,
I hear what you're saying.
Uh we'd also have the F five license,
(38:50):
we have the E three license,
we have these other licenses that could get you this this and this and it's not going to be the E FIVE license,
but it will solve,
if I'm hearing you correctly,
it will solve the situation.
You're,
you're going at,
you're not having a technical conversation at this point.
This is diplomacy and I did,
you know,
but my role is a technical role.
(39:10):
Do you see how my skill set in computer science,
technology,
it and security is not what would have gotten us that,
that deal it is the ability to listen and regurgitate according to what this director is asking for.
So that's one of the things that I quickly found out and I started to be very,
(39:35):
very mindful of that.
So that's,
that's one of them does,
does that kind of answer one of some of your your question?
Mhm.
(40:27):
Mhm.
(40:47):
Mhm.
Mhm.
(41:21):
Thank you.
Yes.
(41:42):
Correct.
Yes,
I agree with the networking part with your colleagues and no one,
you know,
I've been on.
So II I give this story.
So we,
we were doing recruiting and I was part of the recruiting team.
We're going,
you know,
and um I was talking with no,
II,
I tried to find time to talk with someone who was senior,
(42:05):
very senior in my uh in the,
in that,
in that we had,
we traveled somewhere to,
to do this whole recruiting thing event and him and I were just having lunch.
I mean,
I,
I saw that he was having lunch by himself,
went to meet him,
talked to him.
Next thing you know,
I'm asking him what he's up to what he's doing in the office.
And he told me about this,
uh this great opportunity that he's working on and these people he's talking to.
(42:28):
And the next thing you know,
he asked me,
hey,
I'm looking for uh X person who has ex skills that can help with this new opportunity that we're,
we're,
we're,
we're producing it.
It's a big opportunity too.
And I just,
I fit like 90% of that skill set.
Maybe not all of it.
I was like,
hey,
well,
(42:48):
interesting enough,
I've worked on a project that was like this and he's like,
ok,
well,
well,
I mean,
I'll let you know.
Right.
And that's the idea of networking.
It's just people are you talk with them,
you break the ice and you find out what you genuinely care about what they're doing,
right?
You're not just talking for the sake of talking.
(43:09):
It's not,
I wanna get something from you just how are you doing,
what's going on?
And then from that you build a relationship and they will remember you um if something is necessarily needed,
right?
But even beyond that,
where I'm actually getting at is that you might realize that there's another position or there's another variant of your position somewhere in the company that you could,
(43:33):
your specific skill sets could fill,
I'll give you the,
I kind of told you this before the call.
But I do,
my position has nothing to do with the marketing in my company.
Nothing but from talking with people,
I realize we're working on this product.
We're building this,
we're building that.
And I was like,
hey,
you know,
would you guys like for me to make a,
(43:53):
a quick video on this idea that that's brewing it like?
Yeah,
sure.
Are you sure you can do it?
So,
yeah,
I,
I used to do this a long time ago and I still do it today so I can help out.
Ok.
Now I helped out I made the video,
they loved it and that opened up a whole new broadened position for me.
You know,
that I'm now fulfilling in co in conjunction with what I already do,
(44:18):
right?
That it broadens my sphere of influence,
it broadens the people I connect with the people I know and also lets people know that there's a certain level of visibility just because I was able to realize from con con conversations that there is a skill set that I have that is outside our scope of work that can fill out,
fill something up in the company.
(44:39):
So when you connect with people and talk,
you realize what I can do,
I can help with that,
you know,
and that gives you that visibility and helps you grow.
That's my perspective on it.
(45:06):
Mhm mhm Yeah.
(45:52):
Mhm Correct.
(46:21):
Mhm mhm Yeah.
And there are many I CS that,
I mean,
I know quite a few I CS who are,
I mean,
people listen to them as though they're managers because they,
(46:43):
they body that role so well.
But they don't want the responsibilities that they,
well,
I don't want to use the word responsibilities.
They don't want the extra baggage that comes with the actual title of being a manager that's not their personality.
Um So they prefer the IC role.
Um However,
they do very well in the space of mentorship advice,
uh counseling,
(47:04):
in owning things and explaining things to people.
And so you see them really blossoming that IC and I'm very happy that a lot of companies have recognized that not everyone wants to be a manager.
Some people really love the technology and that's what they want to do,
but that doesn't,
that should not stunt their growth,
you know.
Um So I actually want to ask you about developers and products,
(47:28):
right?
So you're working in Apple and you're working with developers,
your,
your ears on the ground,
listening to their concerns as well as the issues you may have in your code base.
So I want to give an example,
let's say you uh there's,
there is a company that's looking to create an app and I uh or let's just say there's a young young guy who's trying to make an app,
(47:53):
put it on the app store.
And let's say this app is like Z,
uh,
do you know the,
uh,
what's it called?
The Autotrader app,
for instance?
Yeah.
So,
uh,
basically something,
something like that seems like a start up.
Um,
I think Carvana,
I don't know if they have an app right now but basically they're trying to do something that would change the industry,
(48:17):
something that wasn't done normally before.
What is some of the advice you would give to them that would allow them to actually be able to get to that point of deploying their application in the APP store.
(48:40):
Mhm Where did you say this resource was?
(52:16):
What,
what,
what is the name of the resource for the for the entrepreneurs,
the you said?
OK.
Mm OK.
(54:01):
OK.
So right now you've given some insight on,
on resources on the other side of it when it comes to entrepreneurship and developers,
you know,
back at school,
there were,
there's always like a group of three or four guys who had like an idea that you wanted to,
to launch and um and a professor would come alongside them and maybe use it for their capstone,
(54:24):
whatever the case may be.
What is some of your experience in terms of going through the hurdles of entrepreneurship?
Because I've been in that space before and I know how difficult it can be.
So you know that you are able to kind of see it from a different angle.
What are some of the things to keep in mind for new entrepreneurs and new developers.
(58:34):
Well,
you know,
you've talked about it,
architect,
architecture,
and that's partially what I do for the most part actually is a,
is a huge part of what I do.
So that makes me want to ask you a little bit about security.
I mean,
um I'm big on the importance of security in,
in the,
in the world we live in today because data is so easily accessible and a lot of people are not aware of how to protect their data.
(58:57):
And we put a lot of data into our applications every day.
What are some of the things that developers need to keep in mind so that their customers can actually feel comfortable to put in sensitive data into these applications that are on our phones today.
(01:01:52):
Mhm So you talked about multi factor authentication,
which is great and you talked about uh encryption um which when it comes to you,
if you don't know the answer to that,
that's fine as well.
Let's say,
you know how banks have access to very personal data.
(01:02:13):
If you know what are some of the encryption techniques um that or other kinds of security techniques that we need to keep in mind when it comes to building these applications or we talked about a secure database as well?
What are some of the I just wanted you to go a little bit low level before we wrap up?
(01:05:03):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Yeah,
you definitely thank you.
I appreciate it.
You know,
sometimes it's easy,
not easy,
but it's nice for us.
It's great for us to talk about high level stuff,
the journey,
the procedure,
but we're in a technical field and that's something that I'm working on.
We,
we,
you and I talked about it a little bit earlier but uh we will have some more technical facing podcast and discussions where we go a little bit deeper.
(01:05:29):
But I also don't want to alienate the audience that is looking to the,
the student who wants to get into,
to,
to a tech company or the entrepreneur who just wants to get their mind around what it takes to build an app right before we start talking about an actual code base or SDKS,
we don't want to alienate them because they can look at it and like in an interview,
(01:05:52):
like this is out of my breath,
I'm just,
I'm not even interested.
So I need to make sure that that's why I try to be careful as to not jump into that level of detail too quickly.
But we will um I appreciate all the answers you've given me.
We have a few more minutes left and I have to talk about this because it's the buzzword of the year.
(01:06:13):
What is your thought or what are your thoughts on artificial intelligence?
And what is your experience so far with it to the best of what you can tell us yes.
(01:08:37):
Gemini just came out.
Mhm.
(01:09:30):
Multimodal.
Yeah.
Correct.
Mhm.
It's 1000 worth 1000 words.
(01:09:53):
Yes.
Ok.
(01:11:29):
Mhm.
Correct.
It reminds me of um,
yeah,
most people have,
well,
not most people but a lot of people have seen Iron Man.
Right.
So Jarvis was not Siri,
right.
That,
that,
that was Jarvis was really,
(01:11:51):
if you think about it,
a large language model that was multimodal,
that could see and understand Mr Stark's context and give him the best advice or at least carry out the tasks he needed specified to his customized requirements.
Um So you're right in terms of the level that it's going to and I think that's,
(01:12:17):
it will also,
I mean,
Microsoft has github Copilot now um which,
which really helps with programming.
So imagine if we had that in college,
I mean that all those exams and all those not even exams,
the homework.
My goodness because you know how um I know that there was,
there were times where I would go to Sam for instance and be like,
look,
I need help with this in this,
(01:12:39):
in this homework,
et cetera and it's not always easy,
but now with help copilot and you were talking about the enterprise value,
there is a security copilot and a couple of other integrated large language models that if you have,
I believe either the E five license or above.
Um You can actually and put it around your company where it's stays within your data,
(01:12:59):
stays within your company.
But let's say you,
you missed a meeting.
You can ask what was this,
what was summarized in that meeting?
And it gives you a good context for your job,
right?
Like this is what you miss and these are the tasks that they ask that you would,
you should do.
And uh there's a lot you have your SharePoint or your data repositories and you can,
you can look for context like,
(01:13:21):
OK,
we have so many documents in this folder.
Um I would,
I'm actually looking to find out whether Emmanuel had uh had purchased X item,
you know,
in the last couple of years.
And how can that inform me about whether he will um purchase more items?
(01:13:41):
This Christmas,
right?
That,
that's pretty amazing.
And um I don't know how much you've,
you've interacted with them.
But um what would you say that people who are looking to get,
how can people who are looking to get into the tech industry optimize these tools that are available to pursue their dreams and then we can wrap up on that.
(01:14:44):
Mhm Yeah.
(01:16:11):
And you Exactly.
And you,
you just talked about Swift U I.
Instead of going to learn Swift U I from scratch,
you can actually query Bard or Chat GP T and it will give you some kind of stepping stone to start pursuing your prototype for your I APP idea,
(01:16:33):
right?
So there's that and um I will say that we still need to verify just in terms of the technical part because I've worked with some of these things to,
you know,
give me this program that does this so I can or,
or debug this code or whatever the case is.
And A either he doesn't fully understand the context or B it uses something that should work but does not work,
(01:17:00):
right?
Like there is no such thing as this particular parameter.
But when you look at the parameter,
it looks like it should exist.
And so you gotta be careful to go over your,
your what you,
what is uh A I generated,
right?
(01:17:24):
Yes.
Word.
Mhm.
(01:17:54):
Mhm.
(01:18:14):
Mhm.
Mhm.
Correct.
(01:18:39):
Mhm.
Well,
that's good.
I mean,
we can talk about A I for another hour,
but thank you for,
for the insights you gave there.
I,
so we've come to the end of our,
of our podcast here and it's been a pleasure to talk with you Emmanuel,
you know,
hear your journey,
how you got to apple some of the challenges you faced.
And I really believe that listeners will be blessed and you know,
(01:19:03):
they will gain value from,
from your journey.
And I hope to have you again and you know,
sometime soon and we can talk about some other aspects of the tech career system and what we can do to improve our quality of life and actually be able to enjoy what we do because and I wrap up with this.
(01:19:27):
It is one thing to want to have a job in the tech industry.
It's another thing to wake up every morning happy that you're doing what you're doing.
And I really hope that for everyone who's listening that even when you do get your job in tech or tech adjacent,
it doesn't have to be necessarily in tech,
but it could be tech adjacent that you enjoy what you do because that's most likely where you'll do your best work.
(01:19:54):
So with that said,
thank you,
Emmanuel.
And I hope that uh the listeners will be back for our next conversation and I appreciate your help today.
Thank you everyone for listening and uh we'll see you next time.
Bye for now.
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