June 25, 2025 • 38 mins
Episode 23: Confronting the Money Taboo in Plaintiff Work
What happens when you’ve spent your whole life avoiding money, and now your entire job is to ask for it in the name of justice?
In this episode, Mo Hamoudi opens up about how childhood poverty and betrayal shaped a deep discomfort with money. He was taken advantage of by people who claimed to care about him. He learned early on that money could be a weapon. And then he became a plaintiff lawyer.
Karen challenges him: “Money is not a dirty word. If you're embarrassed about it, the jury will feel it. The defense will see it. And your client will lose.”
Together, they unpack how the civil justice system forces us to put a price on the unthinkable, like the loss of a child. “When you say a child’s loss is worth nothing, you destroy the very idea of what it means to love unconditionally.”
They also delve into the power dynamics within the plaintiff bar. The more money you have, the harder you are to wear down. And the more seriously you’re taken.
Mo’s working to reframe his relationship with money. Not as betrayal. But as fuel for justice. Karen thinks he’s about 20 percent there. And that’s better than zero.
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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mo Hamoudi (00:00):
Well let's talk about.
Karen Koehler (00:04):
Our last episode was too spicy, we can't even
air it.
We were just totally spicy andMike said we can't air it.
It was too controversial, wewould have made too many enemies
.
So today we're going to talkabout a much more placid subject
.
Mo Hamoudi (00:18):
Yes, yes, I woke up in the morning and I was like,
uh, we said a little too much onthat last one.
Karen Koehler (00:25):
I would have been fine with it, but whatever.
Mo Hamoudi (00:28):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (00:28):
All right.
Part two of money.
Mo Hamoudi (00:30):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (00:31):
So we got through part one and I outed you
on the fact that you're veryuncomfortable with money, so
you've been doing some personaluh journey.
Mo Hamoudi (00:44):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I have a coach and I work with
my coach on professionalpersonal development, and the
topic of money has come up andwhat I have learned is that
money is a source of trauma forme and that's a challenge when
you are working as a plaintiff'slawyer and part of your goal is
(01:07):
to get money for your client.
Karen Koehler (01:09):
Can you, are you comfortable sharing with us?
An example Like what do youmean?
Money is a source of trauma foryou.
Mo Hamoudi (01:17):
You know one, I've been financially taken advantage
of multiple times as a youngperson.
An advantage of multiple timesas a young person.
And we didn't have money.
So for me, when I was going toget money or go earn money, it
was something that I like,created a value system around
that had to do with escaping thereality of my house.
(01:41):
That money was the solution,that that resource was a
solution to reduce suffering.
Karen Koehler (01:47):
So your house was a source of abuse for you.
Mo Hamoudi (01:50):
Abuse, but also poverty.
Karen Koehler (01:52):
Okay, and you wanted to get out of your house.
Mo Hamoudi (01:54):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (01:55):
And you saw money as being a route to escape
.
Mo Hamoudi (01:58):
Right.
Karen Koehler (01:58):
And you got money.
Mo Hamoudi (02:00):
And I did immediately.
Karen Koehler (02:01):
As a how old person.
Mo Hamoudi (02:02):
Like 18, 19 years old, I was making thousands of
dollars a month.
And I did immediately as a howold person, Like 18, 19 years
old, I was making, you know,thousands of dollars a month.
Karen Koehler (02:07):
And you did this through.
Mo Hamoudi (02:09):
Working in real estate, working with a group of
people who were involved in realestate, and doing very good at
it, and then you found out.
I found out that they weretaking advantage of me.
Karen Koehler (02:22):
What does that mean?
Mo Hamoudi (02:23):
They were.
They were misusing um my nameand uh for you know, just
inappropriate purposes.
Karen Koehler (02:32):
You know, like you know and um well, we don't
want you to go to jail or themto go to jail, so but it wasn't,
it wasn't like fraud level kindof stuff it wasn't fraud level,
it was just what I would callum misdealings, not acting in
good faith.
Mo Hamoudi (02:46):
And what ended up happening was that, you know, my
mom realized and she confrontedthem, confronted an individual,
and said you know, you need tofix this problem, and then told
me to, you know, and I left thejob.
And I left the job.
And then the second time was, Iowned a business when I was in
(03:09):
my early 20s, a very successfulclothing business up in New York
City on the Upper East Side,and I'd purchased a business
from a friend, and when Ipurchased it, I was told that
the business was worth X amount.
And then what I learnedafterwards was that the amount
(03:30):
was misrepresented, theinventory was overvalued and
there was inventory missing, andI hadn't even gotten my own
lawyer.
I made the deal with him, witha lawyer that he selected, and
what I felt I mean he was mucholder than I I felt that I was
(03:50):
being mentored and that he wouldinvite me over to his home, I
would have dinner with hisfamily.
I didn't have anybody in NewYork.
It was a very challenging timefor me, so I felt as though I
was part of the family, and Irecall a conversation I had with
though I was part of the family, and I recall a conversation I
had with him when I confrontedhim about this and I naively but
(04:18):
that's how I felt I said, well,I thought I was part of your
family and he was like you'renot part of your family and he
was like you're not.
And I remember hearing that andI remember feeling terrible.
Yeah, um, I mean, those arejust those instances kind of
like taught me that money has atendency to do things to people,
(04:40):
and um, and and so Money is theroot of all evil.
Karen Koehler (04:46):
I guess it's the root of all evil, but it brings
out the worst in peoplesometimes, um and so my
relationship with money at thatpoint was but it wasn't just
that it was bad that that therewas, you know, it was that you
felt that money you money inyour case amounted to betrayal
and loss of safety.
Mo Hamoudi (05:06):
Loss of safety, betrayal.
I mean I guess I don't knowMike.
I mean, oh, wise sage Mike.
I mean you know I'm a sensitiveguy.
You know I'm a sensitive guy.
I want people to know that I'ma good, kind person and value me
(05:32):
for that.
And somehow money ended upconfusing all that.
Mike Todd (05:36):
Yeah, I mean you said something in that or two where
you felt like you were part ofhis family, two where he felt
like you were part of his family, and I think I mean I had that
a lot when I was first breakingout into the music industry and
working with bands where youstart to feel like you're part
(05:57):
of a team and it sounds like inthat situation you quickly
realized that you weren't part.
Well, he said you're not part,and was he using that as an
excuse for, you know, not beingtruthful?
Mo Hamoudi (06:16):
Maybe I.
I kind of took it as a hey,there is a personal relationship
and then there's a businessrelationship and those two
things don't overlap.
And I think you're confused, Mo.
You know, like, wake up.
It was that kind of realitycheck for me and, whereas I
think that I blurred the lines Ijust had, the tendency to my
(06:40):
whole life, and I think that'seasy for someone who wants to be
.
Mike Todd (06:44):
I mean, I think you know when you're, when you have
trauma early on, you gravitatetowards people that you feel are
consider it that way and you'vebeen sort of, I mean, in the
(07:08):
instance of money.
Then there's this extra factorthat's laid into it.
It's not just that you're notpart of the family, it's that
you don't deserve to be treatedfairly.
Mo Hamoudi (07:19):
yeah, maybe that's it that's a good part that's a I
mean.
I think that what that did,those events culminated into my
decision to follow what Ibelieve to be my moral compass
and not have money be part ofthat component, and so I went
and represented poor people.
Karen Koehler (07:39):
Yeah.
So what did Sherry do?
Oops, what did your coach do?
Mo Hamoudi (07:45):
What did my coach do?
What did my coach do?
What did your coach do?
Well, my coach was like well,what were you doing when you're
representing poor people?
What are you doing?
I was like I was pursuingjustice, I was trying to bring
them peace.
And then she said well, are youdoing the same thing now, and
(08:07):
what are you trying to do whenyou're trying to pursue money
for your clients?
I said I'm trying to help themfind justice, help them find
peace.
And then she said well, thenwhy don't you pursue that for
yourself?
And then I was floored.
(08:28):
I kind of sat there silent.
I was like because I don'tthink I deserve it, and kind of
have been pursuing it my entirelife for other people, because I
don't think I deserve thosethings.
I mean, I've never lived withpeace.
(08:50):
I don't know what that meansfor me.
Karen Koehler (08:58):
So I mean this is deep, it's deep.
Mo Hamoudi (09:03):
Well, you asked, this is deep, it's deep.
Karen Koehler (09:05):
Well, you asked.
It is deep.
However, where this came fromwas that our job is very limited
by our system of justice.
Mo Hamoudi (09:17):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (09:17):
We can't get peace quote unquote or justice
unless it's in the form of moneyin a civil arena, and so the
money has to represent justiceand peace.
Yes, Right.
So it's representative and youare still not quite comfortable
(09:39):
with that.
Mo Hamoudi (09:41):
No, and that's my challenge, and I don't think
it's a bad thing, I just thinkthat it's something I'm going to
work on I don't even think thatit's something that's unique to
you, I mean, even though yourexperience is very unique.
Karen Koehler (10:00):
what I see as a trial lawyer is that people's
perceptions about money andtrial lawyer and plane of cases
is typically pretty negativeUntil they understand like this
is not something gross.
Our predecessors who decided tocreate this country felt that
(10:26):
we could have the best civiljustice system in the world,
which I believe that we do eventhough it's flawed and that this
is how it was going to work.
And so, in trying to fulfill thedestiny of that vision of
having this, basically it allowsthe people that have nothing to
sue the people that havesomething, and the only way that
(10:49):
you can get accountability alot of time is to make the
people that have something givesome of it up.
That makes a point, especiallyto a corporation which has no
feelings of remorse.
The only thing it cares aboutis its bottom line.
So I completely accept that,but many people that are on the
jury don't and I think we talkedabout this before.
They'll say well, you know, thelife of life is worth nothing
(11:12):
because it's priceless.
That doesn't mean it's worthnothing, though.
That means that it's.
No one would want to give uptheir life for a money figure,
but that doesn't mean it'sworthless.
It means the opposite.
It means it's about the mostprecious thing that there is is
life.
Mo Hamoudi (11:32):
I think that that resonates with me.
I think that what values doesmoney inspire?
When you're talking about it inthe context of someone's
catastrophic loss, okay, I canthink of it in that light.
I think where I'm having achallenge is that what has made
(11:53):
me excel as a lawyer and be veryexcellent at what I do is not
to have money be part of thecomponent that drives me to find
justice for people, find peacefor people.
That drives me to find justicefor people, find peace for
people, and what I learned withmy coach was that I am capping
myself right by not beingreceptive to how money can
(12:14):
enhance my ability to pursuejustice and peace for people.
That's the challenge, and Ihave to confront the fact that
it's my problems with moneythat's stopping that.
It has nothing to do with moneyas an external factor.
Money is just a commodity, it'sjust a resource.
Karen Koehler (12:33):
So there's kind of two issues.
You know, we started offtalking about money because I'm
interested in, I mean, that isthe only thing that I can
achieve is money justice.
Mo Hamoudi (12:44):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (12:45):
In a capitalist society.
Mike Todd (12:47):
Yeah, that's.
The problem with it is thatmoney from the beginning of time
is the representation of.
Karen Koehler (12:53):
Limited.
Mike Todd (12:54):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (12:58):
Yeah, beginning of time is the representation of
limited.
Yeah, yeah, in fact, a lot oftimes they want you to sign off
saying we accept noresponsibility for this here's
here's some money.
Mo Hamoudi (13:03):
Here's a million dollars yeah but we're not
responsible which is my leastfavorite.
I mean, I think that's aproblem.
And here's the problem.
I mean I will only.
I can only draw from experiencethat I'm familiar with is that
I've had to bring into court men, often facing with what I call
(13:24):
disproportionate sentences to goto prison for things that they
have done, with their familiessitting in a courtroom and
they're draped in orange suits,about to go away into a box for
many, many years, and they aretold do you accept
responsibility for what you do?
And they sit there in front ofeveryone, somewhat humiliated,
(13:45):
acknowledging all the wrongsthey've done.
Having the other side tell themeverything they've done their
entire life that's wrong.
Talking about their criminalhistory, all of that.
And then they sit there andfumble through ways through an
expression of remorse on theirentire life that's wrong.
Talking about their criminalhistory, all of that.
And then they sit there andfumble through ways through an
expression of remorse.
It's the most humiliating thingI witnessed day in and day out.
(14:06):
And yet you can come into thecivil system and cut a check and
not do that Even worse.
Mike Todd (14:12):
you can admit that you did it in an attempt to not
have to cut that check.
Mo Hamoudi (14:28):
Yeah, that's the tough one.
That's even worse.
So what drives me to want to goto trial against a corporation
is dragging those witnessesthrough an examination that
makes them feel what my clientsfelt in those courtrooms.
That's what drives me, butunfortunately that may not be in
the best interests of what thevalues of our civil system are,
which is cash.
That's what I've got to workthrough, because I have to make
(14:52):
decisions that say yeah, buthere's what I think.
Karen Koehler (14:56):
Okay, I think that the burning desire which we
just you know we had to, we hadto mitigate that burning desire
because we settled the case,yes, but the burning desire we
had to do that, yes, to gopublic, which drove us, that was
realized by the defense yeah,and, and that's what scares them
when they know that that's whatyou want to do more than
(15:17):
anything else and your client isalong with that.
The client wants thataccountability.
Mo Hamoudi (15:26):
Yeah, then you've got to do it.
I mean, you're ethicallyresponsible to the client's
needs.
I hear you.
Karen Koehler (15:34):
But sometimes the client's going to say,
sometimes just knowing that isgoing to make the defendant
corporation pay more money, paymore money, pay more money.
Mo Hamoudi (15:45):
Yeah, I think that's sort of the struggle of
my coaches.
Is that the way I view money isactually helping get more money
, because I don't care about it?
Karen Koehler (15:58):
Money is not a dirty word.
It cannot be a dirty word.
So many people are souncomfortable with it, and so
what I asked Mo to do was tofigure out why you're
uncomfortable with it.
Because you can't be Not inthis profession I was Initially.
I didn't know how to ask fordamages, I didn't know how to
demand them, I didn't know howto rationalize or talk about
(16:22):
them or love them.
You have to love I mean, thissounds horrible, but you have to
love the concept of money,justice, in order to do this job
.
And if you're apologetic, ifyou're concerned or worried or
self-conscious about it, ifyou're embarrassed about talking
about money, what do you thinkis going to happen?
Mo Hamoudi (16:37):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (16:38):
You're going to communicate that to a jury.
Mike Todd (16:40):
That's right, not just that, you're going to
communicate it to the defenseand they're going to know.
Karen Koehler (16:44):
That too.
Mo Hamoudi (16:45):
All right.
So you have a case and you havea loss of a child All right.
How do you ask for money forthe loss of a child and the
parents are sitting there?
Karen Koehler (16:57):
in a courtroom.
Mo Hamoudi (16:58):
How do you do that?
Can you help illuminate us?
Karen Koehler (17:01):
there is no loss worse than loss of a child.
Okay, it is not a trite saying,okay, it is like a part of you
has just a physical part of youhas just died and will never be
back.
And they have not lasted aslong as you.
(17:21):
They should have lived longerthan you.
You would have laid down yourlife for that child.
It's unlike a spouse Even aspouse as bad as a lifetime
spouse is there is still nothingworse than losing a child, a
child that you sacrificed for,that you nourished from the
(17:41):
beginning, that you watched fromthe moment they were teeny.
It is excruciating, unbelievable, unbearable.
And when you think aboutputting a price on that, it is
abhorrent.
You recoil because who couldever put a dollar amount price
(18:06):
on the life of the most?
It will never be enough.
But in our justice system,that's what the law tells you is
your job to do.
You have to do that.
How are you going to do that?
(18:30):
Enough value, money, value onthat child's life.
You disrespect that parent,that family.
That life is gone for nothing.
You damage, you do more damage.
You do as much damage sometimesas a child being gone Because
(18:54):
you have failed to recognizewhat that was and in a society
that has morality and goals andaspirations and says things like
love your family and family isso important.
When you say that a child's lossis worth nothing, you are kind
(19:17):
of destroying the underpinningsof our society and what it means
to love unconditionally.
It's that important, I'm notdone so.
You need to put a value on thatloss and you say, well, it's
priceless, but we value thingsthat are priceless.
All day long.
(19:39):
We put values on things thatthere haven't been values for
all day long.
When you use a cryptocurrency,a little piece of a coin can be
worth a million dollars.
For what?
What is it?
It can't breathe, it can't hugyou, it can't hold you, it can't
love you, you can't touch it.
Mike Todd (20:00):
Cryptocurrency you can't even touch.
Karen Koehler (20:02):
What is it?
We pay Michael Jordan billionsof dollars to put his insignia
on tennis shoes dollars to puthis insignia on tennis shoes.
We pay Tom Cruise $120 millionto star in Mission Impossible.
And you say that we can't put avalue on the loss of a child we
(20:28):
can.
Then I tell him what I think.
It is.
It's a conversation and it's atwo-way.
See what I'm doing.
It's like I'm asking you tothink along with.
It's a conversation and it's atwo-way.
See, what I'm doing is like I'masking you to think along with
me.
I'm not preaching at you,no-transcript.
(20:49):
You can do that right, becauseit's not.
We're not talking about this.
One is worth this much and thismuch is this much, and this
dollar is this, and I want moredollars.
That's not what we're doing.
We're talking about symbolismand love and being cherished.
(21:10):
What is that worth?
It's worth a lot.
So that's why the defendantsdon't like to deal with me when
I talk about damages, becauseand it's not even hard- no.
It's getting yourself out of theway of thinking like this is
just a dollar amount, and I'veseen people like they spend a
(21:33):
lot of time talking aboutliability, but when it comes to
how you talk about the money,there's some little.
You know, there's a gimmick.
Mo Hamoudi (21:43):
There is a gimmick.
Karen Koehler (21:44):
There's some kind of a gimmick or there's
some short explanation Dollarsand cents.
You mark it all up there in aline.
But that's not what you do, inmy opinion, to talk about
damages.
When I get big verdicts, it'sbecause I did what I do here.
I want to talk about it withthem and have them think through
how we value okay what I justlearned from that was that one.
Mo Hamoudi (22:08):
The way you were talking to me, I wanted to
answer inherent questions thatwere being posed even though you
weren't asking questions, so itwas a really interesting way,
it's a dialogue.
Yeah, it's a dialogue, but it'sa different type of dialogue
(22:29):
that causes you to reflect, asyou're listening, and the
reflection causes you toquestion your internal
philosophies, as you're hearingthe person speak and you want to
almost ask a follow-up.
So when you were walkingthrough that, there was about
(22:51):
halfway in I wanted to say Istopped you and you stopped
about halfway in I wanted to say, karen, yeah, I stopped you and
you stopped me and I wanted toask, and, and the question I
wanted to ask was I agree withyou, give me a framework of how
to measure that amount?
sure measure the amount of um,which you describe an
unfathomable loss, and and I'm alittle bit overwhelmed that's
(23:14):
like what I was itching to ask.
Karen Koehler (23:16):
You have to give them a framework.
Mo Hamoudi (23:17):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (23:19):
But that's how you get to it.
A lot of people skip that step.
They just go right to theframework.
Mo Hamoudi (23:24):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (23:25):
But you've got to get the jury to understand
what's being asked, which is,we're not asking you just to put
this arbitrary amount on here.
That sounds good enough, orright?
It's symbolic.
What did you think, mike?
Mike Todd (23:42):
Oh well, I think that's I mean I've seen that in
action, like when you were inthe Ride the Ducks case going
through each individual andlaying that out to the jury was
very powerful at that time andthat was one of the first times
that I had watched that go down.
And it's very important becauseit's it's hard for most people
(24:09):
to imagine and most I mean mostpeople on juries you're going to
run into a lot who don't thinkthat verdict should be that high
of a number because they can'tunderstand that and they come in
with bias that they thinknothing's worth that much kind
(24:30):
of stuff.
But you know, that's why Ialways say wait until they're in
the seat of our plaintiff,because if they are, that
attitude changes really quickand it doesn't matter if they're
, you know, liberal orconservative, christian or not,
or you know, whatever theirbeliefs are.
(24:52):
It can change on a dime.
When that happens and it's verytelling to see that in action,
what are you?
Karen Koehler (25:07):
smiling about.
Mo Hamoudi (25:09):
You know it's.
I've seen you close becauseI've tried a case with you.
It's different than sitting infront of you and having you
close a case to me, but that wassort of it was revealing in
that I felt really connected toyou when you were talking to me,
(25:33):
even in this hypotheticalexample, because my style is not
to preach.
Yeah, you weren't preaching.
I'm not a preacher.
Karen Koehler (25:41):
No, I don't have the dynamism of MLK, Like I
don't have that ability to bespellbinding and mesmerizing by
giving you know a speech, and Ialso don't want to.
I don't want.
I don't want people to dothings because I said it.
(26:01):
I want to do people to dothings because they believe it's
the right thing to do, theright thing to do I do.
I want them to be, I want themto have a process that's fair,
that they can go through andreach it.
Mo Hamoudi (26:15):
Okay, so going back kind of half circle to the
beginning, where we were talkingabout, what do you think I need
to do to get to a space where Ican just have a conversation
about money through symbolism?
Karen Koehler (26:31):
Practice makes perfect.
I think you need to talk moreabout money.
I think you need to write aboutmoney.
I think that you need tobecause there's stigma.
Sometimes you know you allowmoney to you've.
You've allowed money to bestigmatized in your life?
Yes, and it symbolizes negativetrauma.
Um, I believe your coach alsosaid that you've kind of
(26:56):
defaulted when it comes to money.
Mo Hamoudi (26:58):
I have.
Well, I've done thatprofessionally and I've done
that personally, but I'll justbe like you take care of the
money.
Karen Koehler (27:05):
Someone else.
Mo Hamoudi (27:06):
Someone else can take care of it.
You don't want to do it, youdon't want to touch it.
Karen Koehler (27:10):
So I think you need to, can take control of of
it and stop, stop.
You've, you've I don't want tosay you've demonized it because
you haven't, but you have,you've put it away and you've
used your credo of moralsuperiority.
Moral superiority that's fairto less, to to that's fair to
(27:45):
kind of diminish it.
Good criticism, moralsuperiority, go on a journey.
What I've learned about money,first of all, I need to, I need
to really feel that it's part ofour justice system in order to
ask for it.
If I didn't believe it, then Iwouldn't do good, yeah, you can
tell, I really believe it.
Um, so I needed to do that.
(28:06):
I need to figure out, like,what is real to me, what, what
will make, what is right, whatis, and so I have that thing.
But the second thing is andyou've rejected this every time
I've brought it up with you oh,boy, and and part of it is part
of the episode that we canceledthat we're not sharing with
anyone um, which was about eliteplaintiff lawyer groups.
(28:45):
Oh yeah, um, yeah, again, I'man older plaintiff lawyer.
I've been doing this a longtime.
Oh yeah, or they're high,because people know I try cases
In this kind of dog-eat-dogworld of litigation, the power
structure is important and wetalked about being in or out of
an elite group.
For someone like me, I literallydon't care, and I can say that
(29:10):
because, a I have a reputation,but B I also have money.
I mean, as gross as that seems,it is a measure of it's seen as
and treated as, and it was notinherited right.
I have no inherited wealthwhatsoever and I was a single
parent of three children who hadno child support, no alimony,
(29:34):
who worked part-time before Igot divorced, so it is a leveler
.
So if someone thinks thatthey're better than me and they
want to take me on, they can tryon the merits, but they can't
try to one-up me because theythink that they can dominate me
(29:56):
financially, which is whatplaintiff lawyers do.
There is a pecking order ofthat.
I'm high up in the peckingorder.
Mo Hamoudi (30:05):
Yeah, I mean.
What I can say is that.
Karen Koehler (30:08):
It's a reality, it's part of the power structure
.
Mo Hamoudi (30:11):
It's what I call the economic structure of
plaintiff's practice is whatyou've just described, and the
power starts at the top andtrickles down.
Karen Koehler (30:23):
It's not just plaintiffs Like Elon Musk is
coming off of changing ourgovernment.
Do you think that he would havehad a foot in the door if he
wasn't a billionaire?
No, he would not.
Mo Hamoudi (30:34):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (30:34):
His power comes from his wealth.
Wealth.
Mike Todd (30:38):
Well, yeah, I mean, but power doesn't have to come
from wealth.
It doesn't.
It doesn't.
And I also think you know Imean I have, even now, even now,
throughout my life, I have notcared about money.
Even now, even now, throughoutmy life, I have not cared about
money.
I cared about getting respectfor what I do and doing a good
(31:02):
job at what I do.
Money comes along with that, butI still don't pay attention to
it.
My wife takes care of all ofour finances.
I don't ever look at what Imake or what we have.
I depend on her to tell me ifwe're spending too much so that
(31:24):
I slow down.
But I also, and for a long time,I thought that, you know,
anything that was judged bymoney was something that I
didn't really want to be part of.
And then I became part of thisfirm and learned more about how
money can be used to changethings in a positive way.
(31:48):
A lot of that was, like yousaid, I had demonized money.
And you know, a lot of that was, like you said money, I had
demonized money.
And I think that you can stillhave my personal belief of not
being concerned about it,partially because I mean, mo,
you came from very poorbeginnings, so you know you can
(32:09):
survive when you're poor, yeah,yeah.
You can survive when you'repoor, yeah, yeah.
So if you don't have that fear,then they don't have as much
power pushing the money as anissue, and you can still know
that it that it, that it haspower and that you're giving
(32:29):
power to your clients by makingsure that they get the best
results.
Mo Hamoudi (32:39):
I really like what you just said, because what
you've reminded me of is thatwhy I'm so fearless and that
because I don't feel thatanybody has power over me, I
move comfortably within spheresof power and wealth and I never
feel intimidated by those peopleand I actually feel as though I
have a step up on them.
I think you do and I think theyfeel that way, and they feel
(33:03):
intimidated by me because I'venever been responsive to that
kind of structure that you'redescribing.
But one of the things that thecoach and I talked about is that
she said what really works foryou is that you're a really
morally ambitious person, andshe said that having moral
(33:24):
ambitions is a fantastic thing,that money can help you enhance
your ambitions and can reallyhelp you help in ways that you
could never imagine, and thatyou could do better with it.
But it hasn't dissuaded me fromconfronting my relationship
with it.
Karen Koehler (33:42):
So let me give you some examples that are very
specific to plaintiff lawyers.
When I talk about the powerstructure of the plaintiff bar
because maybe it isplaintiff-related more than
normal life and I have beeneverything from plaintiff
beginner to plaintiff senior andeverything in between you are
(34:07):
treated differently by thedefendants.
When you do not have anadequate support system, they
know that they can wear you down, that you do not have the
finances to withstand.
You do get the bigger firmsthat have the pockets of money.
Yes, you are treateddifferently because you can
withstand the onslaught of thedefense.
Mo Hamoudi (34:29):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (34:29):
You can meet it, so they know that they also.
There's a pecking.
Like I said, there is a peckingorder in the plaintiff bar and
I wish that that was true in theplaintiff bar, that you could
do your job, do it fantasticallyand be respected for that and
(34:57):
only measured by that.
But that's not what happens inthe plaintiff bar, because the
more funds that you have, themore advertising you can do.
For example, yes.
You can be on a billboard or abus.
Mo Hamoudi (35:09):
Yes and get more clients.
Karen Koehler (35:11):
Yes, there's all kinds of stuff that you can do,
plaintiff bar and I'm notsaying that any other bar is
different, but the plaintiff baris a scrappy bar.
We only get paid when weresolve cases.
And when you're talking aboutbig stakes litigation, which is
what we do, like really badthing case kind of thing, cases
(35:33):
that it takes a certain amountof pocket to be able to play
that game repeatedly, to theextent that we do.
I mean, it's no secret that inthe 90s the firm lost a million
dollars on tobacco litigation Amillion dollars in the 90s.
Mo Hamoudi (35:53):
In the 90s.
Yeah, what is?
That worth now A lot more, Alot more.
5 to 10, probably.
Karen Koehler (35:58):
That could have bankrupted another firm or the
other firm could not have got it.
And now what you see is there'sbeen some leveling of that
playing field because now thereare these companies that loan
money on cases we don't do thatalmost make.
If we have even one client,it's only because they did it
(36:19):
before we got to them.
We try to talk them out of it.
That's a personal loan but wetry not to do it.
We don't ever do Like.
When the Simon verdict wasappealed that was appealed two
years ago I immediately gotletters from finance companies
saying oh, we see your $, youknow your 40 million, $44
(36:41):
million verdict is on appeal.
We can provide financing in theinterim.
We don't ever do that.
So money is very heavilyconnected to what we do because
of who we're doing it againstand what we're trying to get.
But having said that, I am notdriven by money.
(37:03):
That's not the core of who I am.
I could have retired by now.
I'm not.
I like what I do.
I love what I do.
I'm incredibly driven by what Ido.
The clients would not be happyto hear me say that I'm not
driven by money because that'swhat they can only get is money,
and I'm driven by, you knowwanting to get them a good
result, which means money, but Ipersonally that's never why
(37:26):
I've done this job.
There's other ways that you canmake money.
This is like a very rigorousjob.
Mo Hamoudi (37:35):
I think we need to revisit this topic six months
from now.
Karen Koehler (37:38):
Okay, so this is part two.
Mo Hamoudi (37:40):
This is part two.
And then ask me where I'm atand how I'm doing, because it's
a process.
Karen Koehler (37:44):
Well, how do you feel about it after today?
Mo Hamoudi (37:46):
I feel good.
I mean, I feel as though it'san exciting challenge for me to
enhance what I do by finding arelationship with money.
Karen Koehler (37:56):
I feel like you're about 20% of the way
there.
I like how you come up withthese numbers, I feel like
you're not at 50%, okay, I'm at20%.
Mo Hamoudi (38:07):
I'll take that.
That's good enough for me.
Karen Koehler (38:09):
At least it's better than zero, like the last
time.
I hate money.
What Wait time out?
Mo Hamoudi (38:16):
Wait a minute.
Why did I hire you?
Get out of here, Go back to thepublic defender's.
Well let's talk about.
Karen Koehler (00:04):
Our last episode was too spicy, we can't even
air it.
We were just totally spicy andMike said we can't air it.
It was too controversial, wewould have made too many enemies
.
So today we're going to talkabout a much more placid subject
.
Mo Hamoudi (00:18):
Yes, yes, I woke up in the morning and I was like,
uh, we said a little too much onthat last one.
Karen Koehler (00:25):
I would have been fine with it, but whatever.
Mo Hamoudi (00:28):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (00:28):
All right.
Part two of money.
Mo Hamoudi (00:30):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (00:31):
So we got through part one and I outed you
on the fact that you're veryuncomfortable with money, so
you've been doing some personaluh journey.
Mo Hamoudi (00:44):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I have a coach and I work with
my coach on professionalpersonal development, and the
topic of money has come up andwhat I have learned is that
money is a source of trauma forme and that's a challenge when
you are working as a plaintiff'slawyer and part of your goal is
(01:07):
to get money for your client.
Karen Koehler (01:09):
Can you, are you comfortable sharing with us?
An example Like what do youmean?
Money is a source of trauma foryou.
Mo Hamoudi (01:17):
You know one, I've been financially taken advantage
of multiple times as a youngperson.
An advantage of multiple timesas a young person.
And we didn't have money.
So for me, when I was going toget money or go earn money, it
was something that I like,created a value system around
that had to do with escaping thereality of my house.
(01:41):
That money was the solution,that that resource was a
solution to reduce suffering.
Karen Koehler (01:47):
So your house was a source of abuse for you.
Mo Hamoudi (01:50):
Abuse, but also poverty.
Karen Koehler (01:52):
Okay, and you wanted to get out of your house.
Mo Hamoudi (01:54):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (01:55):
And you saw money as being a route to escape
.
Mo Hamoudi (01:58):
Right.
Karen Koehler (01:58):
And you got money.
Mo Hamoudi (02:00):
And I did immediately.
Karen Koehler (02:01):
As a how old person.
Mo Hamoudi (02:02):
Like 18, 19 years old, I was making thousands of
dollars a month.
And I did immediately as a howold person, Like 18, 19 years
old, I was making, you know,thousands of dollars a month.
Karen Koehler (02:07):
And you did this through.
Mo Hamoudi (02:09):
Working in real estate, working with a group of
people who were involved in realestate, and doing very good at
it, and then you found out.
I found out that they weretaking advantage of me.
Karen Koehler (02:22):
What does that mean?
Mo Hamoudi (02:23):
They were.
They were misusing um my nameand uh for you know, just
inappropriate purposes.
Karen Koehler (02:32):
You know, like you know and um well, we don't
want you to go to jail or themto go to jail, so but it wasn't,
it wasn't like fraud level kindof stuff it wasn't fraud level,
it was just what I would callum misdealings, not acting in
good faith.
Mo Hamoudi (02:46):
And what ended up happening was that, you know, my
mom realized and she confrontedthem, confronted an individual,
and said you know, you need tofix this problem, and then told
me to, you know, and I left thejob.
And I left the job.
And then the second time was, Iowned a business when I was in
(03:09):
my early 20s, a very successfulclothing business up in New York
City on the Upper East Side,and I'd purchased a business
from a friend, and when Ipurchased it, I was told that
the business was worth X amount.
And then what I learnedafterwards was that the amount
(03:30):
was misrepresented, theinventory was overvalued and
there was inventory missing, andI hadn't even gotten my own
lawyer.
I made the deal with him, witha lawyer that he selected, and
what I felt I mean he was mucholder than I I felt that I was
(03:50):
being mentored and that he wouldinvite me over to his home, I
would have dinner with hisfamily.
I didn't have anybody in NewYork.
It was a very challenging timefor me, so I felt as though I
was part of the family, and Irecall a conversation I had with
though I was part of the family, and I recall a conversation I
had with him when I confrontedhim about this and I naively but
(04:18):
that's how I felt I said, well,I thought I was part of your
family and he was like you'renot part of your family and he
was like you're not.
And I remember hearing that andI remember feeling terrible.
Yeah, um, I mean, those arejust those instances kind of
like taught me that money has atendency to do things to people,
(04:40):
and um, and and so Money is theroot of all evil.
Karen Koehler (04:46):
I guess it's the root of all evil, but it brings
out the worst in peoplesometimes, um and so my
relationship with money at thatpoint was but it wasn't just
that it was bad that that therewas, you know, it was that you
felt that money you money inyour case amounted to betrayal
and loss of safety.
Mo Hamoudi (05:06):
Loss of safety, betrayal.
I mean I guess I don't knowMike.
I mean, oh, wise sage Mike.
I mean you know I'm a sensitiveguy.
You know I'm a sensitive guy.
I want people to know that I'ma good, kind person and value me
(05:32):
for that.
And somehow money ended upconfusing all that.
Mike Todd (05:36):
Yeah, I mean you said something in that or two where
you felt like you were part ofhis family, two where he felt
like you were part of his family, and I think I mean I had that
a lot when I was first breakingout into the music industry and
working with bands where youstart to feel like you're part
(05:57):
of a team and it sounds like inthat situation you quickly
realized that you weren't part.
Well, he said you're not part,and was he using that as an
excuse for, you know, not beingtruthful?
Mo Hamoudi (06:16):
Maybe I.
I kind of took it as a hey,there is a personal relationship
and then there's a businessrelationship and those two
things don't overlap.
And I think you're confused, Mo.
You know, like, wake up.
It was that kind of realitycheck for me and, whereas I
think that I blurred the lines Ijust had, the tendency to my
(06:40):
whole life, and I think that'seasy for someone who wants to be
.
Mike Todd (06:44):
I mean, I think you know when you're, when you have
trauma early on, you gravitatetowards people that you feel are
consider it that way and you'vebeen sort of, I mean, in the
(07:08):
instance of money.
Then there's this extra factorthat's laid into it.
It's not just that you're notpart of the family, it's that
you don't deserve to be treatedfairly.
Mo Hamoudi (07:19):
yeah, maybe that's it that's a good part that's a I
mean.
I think that what that did,those events culminated into my
decision to follow what Ibelieve to be my moral compass
and not have money be part ofthat component, and so I went
and represented poor people.
Karen Koehler (07:39):
Yeah.
So what did Sherry do?
Oops, what did your coach do?
Mo Hamoudi (07:45):
What did my coach do?
What did my coach do?
What did your coach do?
Well, my coach was like well,what were you doing when you're
representing poor people?
What are you doing?
I was like I was pursuingjustice, I was trying to bring
them peace.
And then she said well, are youdoing the same thing now, and
(08:07):
what are you trying to do whenyou're trying to pursue money
for your clients?
I said I'm trying to help themfind justice, help them find
peace.
And then she said well, thenwhy don't you pursue that for
yourself?
And then I was floored.
(08:28):
I kind of sat there silent.
I was like because I don'tthink I deserve it, and kind of
have been pursuing it my entirelife for other people, because I
don't think I deserve thosethings.
I mean, I've never lived withpeace.
(08:50):
I don't know what that meansfor me.
Karen Koehler (08:58):
So I mean this is deep, it's deep.
Mo Hamoudi (09:03):
Well, you asked, this is deep, it's deep.
Karen Koehler (09:05):
Well, you asked.
It is deep.
However, where this came fromwas that our job is very limited
by our system of justice.
Mo Hamoudi (09:17):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (09:17):
We can't get peace quote unquote or justice
unless it's in the form of moneyin a civil arena, and so the
money has to represent justiceand peace.
Yes, Right.
So it's representative and youare still not quite comfortable
(09:39):
with that.
Mo Hamoudi (09:41):
No, and that's my challenge, and I don't think
it's a bad thing, I just thinkthat it's something I'm going to
work on I don't even think thatit's something that's unique to
you, I mean, even though yourexperience is very unique.
Karen Koehler (10:00):
what I see as a trial lawyer is that people's
perceptions about money andtrial lawyer and plane of cases
is typically pretty negativeUntil they understand like this
is not something gross.
Our predecessors who decided tocreate this country felt that
(10:26):
we could have the best civiljustice system in the world,
which I believe that we do eventhough it's flawed and that this
is how it was going to work.
And so, in trying to fulfill thedestiny of that vision of
having this, basically it allowsthe people that have nothing to
sue the people that havesomething, and the only way that
(10:49):
you can get accountability alot of time is to make the
people that have something givesome of it up.
That makes a point, especiallyto a corporation which has no
feelings of remorse.
The only thing it cares aboutis its bottom line.
So I completely accept that,but many people that are on the
jury don't and I think we talkedabout this before.
They'll say well, you know, thelife of life is worth nothing
(11:12):
because it's priceless.
That doesn't mean it's worthnothing, though.
That means that it's.
No one would want to give uptheir life for a money figure,
but that doesn't mean it'sworthless.
It means the opposite.
It means it's about the mostprecious thing that there is is
life.
Mo Hamoudi (11:32):
I think that that resonates with me.
I think that what values doesmoney inspire?
When you're talking about it inthe context of someone's
catastrophic loss, okay, I canthink of it in that light.
I think where I'm having achallenge is that what has made
(11:53):
me excel as a lawyer and be veryexcellent at what I do is not
to have money be part of thecomponent that drives me to find
justice for people, find peacefor people.
That drives me to find justicefor people, find peace for
people, and what I learned withmy coach was that I am capping
myself right by not beingreceptive to how money can
(12:14):
enhance my ability to pursuejustice and peace for people.
That's the challenge, and Ihave to confront the fact that
it's my problems with moneythat's stopping that.
It has nothing to do with moneyas an external factor.
Money is just a commodity, it'sjust a resource.
Karen Koehler (12:33):
So there's kind of two issues.
You know, we started offtalking about money because I'm
interested in, I mean, that isthe only thing that I can
achieve is money justice.
Mo Hamoudi (12:44):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (12:45):
In a capitalist society.
Mike Todd (12:47):
Yeah, that's.
The problem with it is thatmoney from the beginning of time
is the representation of.
Karen Koehler (12:53):
Limited.
Mike Todd (12:54):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (12:58):
Yeah, beginning of time is the representation of
limited.
Yeah, yeah, in fact, a lot oftimes they want you to sign off
saying we accept noresponsibility for this here's
here's some money.
Mo Hamoudi (13:03):
Here's a million dollars yeah but we're not
responsible which is my leastfavorite.
I mean, I think that's aproblem.
And here's the problem.
I mean I will only.
I can only draw from experiencethat I'm familiar with is that
I've had to bring into court men, often facing with what I call
(13:24):
disproportionate sentences to goto prison for things that they
have done, with their familiessitting in a courtroom and
they're draped in orange suits,about to go away into a box for
many, many years, and they aretold do you accept
responsibility for what you do?
And they sit there in front ofeveryone, somewhat humiliated,
(13:45):
acknowledging all the wrongsthey've done.
Having the other side tell themeverything they've done their
entire life that's wrong.
Talking about their criminalhistory, all of that.
And then they sit there andfumble through ways through an
expression of remorse on theirentire life that's wrong.
Talking about their criminalhistory, all of that.
And then they sit there andfumble through ways through an
expression of remorse.
It's the most humiliating thingI witnessed day in and day out.
(14:06):
And yet you can come into thecivil system and cut a check and
not do that Even worse.
Mike Todd (14:12):
you can admit that you did it in an attempt to not
have to cut that check.
Mo Hamoudi (14:28):
Yeah, that's the tough one.
That's even worse.
So what drives me to want to goto trial against a corporation
is dragging those witnessesthrough an examination that
makes them feel what my clientsfelt in those courtrooms.
That's what drives me, butunfortunately that may not be in
the best interests of what thevalues of our civil system are,
which is cash.
That's what I've got to workthrough, because I have to make
(14:52):
decisions that say yeah, buthere's what I think.
Karen Koehler (14:56):
Okay, I think that the burning desire which we
just you know we had to, we hadto mitigate that burning desire
because we settled the case,yes, but the burning desire we
had to do that, yes, to gopublic, which drove us, that was
realized by the defense yeah,and, and that's what scares them
when they know that that's whatyou want to do more than
(15:17):
anything else and your client isalong with that.
The client wants thataccountability.
Mo Hamoudi (15:26):
Yeah, then you've got to do it.
I mean, you're ethicallyresponsible to the client's
needs.
I hear you.
Karen Koehler (15:34):
But sometimes the client's going to say,
sometimes just knowing that isgoing to make the defendant
corporation pay more money, paymore money, pay more money.
Mo Hamoudi (15:45):
Yeah, I think that's sort of the struggle of
my coaches.
Is that the way I view money isactually helping get more money
, because I don't care about it?
Karen Koehler (15:58):
Money is not a dirty word.
It cannot be a dirty word.
So many people are souncomfortable with it, and so
what I asked Mo to do was tofigure out why you're
uncomfortable with it.
Because you can't be Not inthis profession I was Initially.
I didn't know how to ask fordamages, I didn't know how to
demand them, I didn't know howto rationalize or talk about
(16:22):
them or love them.
You have to love I mean, thissounds horrible, but you have to
love the concept of money,justice, in order to do this job
.
And if you're apologetic, ifyou're concerned or worried or
self-conscious about it, ifyou're embarrassed about talking
about money, what do you thinkis going to happen?
Mo Hamoudi (16:37):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (16:38):
You're going to communicate that to a jury.
Mike Todd (16:40):
That's right, not just that, you're going to
communicate it to the defenseand they're going to know.
Karen Koehler (16:44):
That too.
Mo Hamoudi (16:45):
All right.
So you have a case and you havea loss of a child All right.
How do you ask for money forthe loss of a child and the
parents are sitting there?
Karen Koehler (16:57):
in a courtroom.
Mo Hamoudi (16:58):
How do you do that?
Can you help illuminate us?
Karen Koehler (17:01):
there is no loss worse than loss of a child.
Okay, it is not a trite saying,okay, it is like a part of you
has just a physical part of youhas just died and will never be
back.
And they have not lasted aslong as you.
(17:21):
They should have lived longerthan you.
You would have laid down yourlife for that child.
It's unlike a spouse Even aspouse as bad as a lifetime
spouse is there is still nothingworse than losing a child, a
child that you sacrificed for,that you nourished from the
(17:41):
beginning, that you watched fromthe moment they were teeny.
It is excruciating, unbelievable, unbearable.
And when you think aboutputting a price on that, it is
abhorrent.
You recoil because who couldever put a dollar amount price
(18:06):
on the life of the most?
It will never be enough.
But in our justice system,that's what the law tells you is
your job to do.
You have to do that.
How are you going to do that?
(18:30):
Enough value, money, value onthat child's life.
You disrespect that parent,that family.
That life is gone for nothing.
You damage, you do more damage.
You do as much damage sometimesas a child being gone Because
(18:54):
you have failed to recognizewhat that was and in a society
that has morality and goals andaspirations and says things like
love your family and family isso important.
When you say that a child's lossis worth nothing, you are kind
(19:17):
of destroying the underpinningsof our society and what it means
to love unconditionally.
It's that important, I'm notdone so.
You need to put a value on thatloss and you say, well, it's
priceless, but we value thingsthat are priceless.
All day long.
(19:39):
We put values on things thatthere haven't been values for
all day long.
When you use a cryptocurrency,a little piece of a coin can be
worth a million dollars.
For what?
What is it?
It can't breathe, it can't hugyou, it can't hold you, it can't
love you, you can't touch it.
Mike Todd (20:00):
Cryptocurrency you can't even touch.
Karen Koehler (20:02):
What is it?
We pay Michael Jordan billionsof dollars to put his insignia
on tennis shoes dollars to puthis insignia on tennis shoes.
We pay Tom Cruise $120 millionto star in Mission Impossible.
And you say that we can't put avalue on the loss of a child we
(20:28):
can.
Then I tell him what I think.
It is.
It's a conversation and it's atwo-way.
See what I'm doing.
It's like I'm asking you tothink along with.
It's a conversation and it's atwo-way.
See, what I'm doing is like I'masking you to think along with
me.
I'm not preaching at you,no-transcript.
(20:49):
You can do that right, becauseit's not.
We're not talking about this.
One is worth this much and thismuch is this much, and this
dollar is this, and I want moredollars.
That's not what we're doing.
We're talking about symbolismand love and being cherished.
(21:10):
What is that worth?
It's worth a lot.
So that's why the defendantsdon't like to deal with me when
I talk about damages, becauseand it's not even hard- no.
It's getting yourself out of theway of thinking like this is
just a dollar amount, and I'veseen people like they spend a
(21:33):
lot of time talking aboutliability, but when it comes to
how you talk about the money,there's some little.
You know, there's a gimmick.
Mo Hamoudi (21:43):
There is a gimmick.
Karen Koehler (21:44):
There's some kind of a gimmick or there's
some short explanation Dollarsand cents.
You mark it all up there in aline.
But that's not what you do, inmy opinion, to talk about
damages.
When I get big verdicts, it'sbecause I did what I do here.
I want to talk about it withthem and have them think through
how we value okay what I justlearned from that was that one.
Mo Hamoudi (22:08):
The way you were talking to me, I wanted to
answer inherent questions thatwere being posed even though you
weren't asking questions, so itwas a really interesting way,
it's a dialogue.
Yeah, it's a dialogue, but it'sa different type of dialogue
(22:29):
that causes you to reflect, asyou're listening, and the
reflection causes you toquestion your internal
philosophies, as you're hearingthe person speak and you want to
almost ask a follow-up.
So when you were walkingthrough that, there was about
(22:51):
halfway in I wanted to say Istopped you and you stopped
about halfway in I wanted to say, karen, yeah, I stopped you and
you stopped me and I wanted toask, and, and the question I
wanted to ask was I agree withyou, give me a framework of how
to measure that amount?
sure measure the amount of um,which you describe an
unfathomable loss, and and I'm alittle bit overwhelmed that's
(23:14):
like what I was itching to ask.
Karen Koehler (23:16):
You have to give them a framework.
Mo Hamoudi (23:17):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (23:19):
But that's how you get to it.
A lot of people skip that step.
They just go right to theframework.
Mo Hamoudi (23:24):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (23:25):
But you've got to get the jury to understand
what's being asked, which is,we're not asking you just to put
this arbitrary amount on here.
That sounds good enough, orright?
It's symbolic.
What did you think, mike?
Mike Todd (23:42):
Oh well, I think that's I mean I've seen that in
action, like when you were inthe Ride the Ducks case going
through each individual andlaying that out to the jury was
very powerful at that time andthat was one of the first times
that I had watched that go down.
And it's very important becauseit's it's hard for most people
(24:09):
to imagine and most I mean mostpeople on juries you're going to
run into a lot who don't thinkthat verdict should be that high
of a number because they can'tunderstand that and they come in
with bias that they thinknothing's worth that much kind
(24:30):
of stuff.
But you know, that's why Ialways say wait until they're in
the seat of our plaintiff,because if they are, that
attitude changes really quickand it doesn't matter if they're
, you know, liberal orconservative, christian or not,
or you know, whatever theirbeliefs are.
(24:52):
It can change on a dime.
When that happens and it's verytelling to see that in action,
what are you?
Karen Koehler (25:07):
smiling about.
Mo Hamoudi (25:09):
You know it's.
I've seen you close becauseI've tried a case with you.
It's different than sitting infront of you and having you
close a case to me, but that wassort of it was revealing in
that I felt really connected toyou when you were talking to me,
(25:33):
even in this hypotheticalexample, because my style is not
to preach.
Yeah, you weren't preaching.
I'm not a preacher.
Karen Koehler (25:41):
No, I don't have the dynamism of MLK, Like I
don't have that ability to bespellbinding and mesmerizing by
giving you know a speech, and Ialso don't want to.
I don't want.
I don't want people to dothings because I said it.
(26:01):
I want to do people to dothings because they believe it's
the right thing to do, theright thing to do I do.
I want them to be, I want themto have a process that's fair,
that they can go through andreach it.
Mo Hamoudi (26:15):
Okay, so going back kind of half circle to the
beginning, where we were talkingabout, what do you think I need
to do to get to a space where Ican just have a conversation
about money through symbolism?
Karen Koehler (26:31):
Practice makes perfect.
I think you need to talk moreabout money.
I think you need to write aboutmoney.
I think that you need tobecause there's stigma.
Sometimes you know you allowmoney to you've.
You've allowed money to bestigmatized in your life?
Yes, and it symbolizes negativetrauma.
Um, I believe your coach alsosaid that you've kind of
(26:56):
defaulted when it comes to money.
Mo Hamoudi (26:58):
I have.
Well, I've done thatprofessionally and I've done
that personally, but I'll justbe like you take care of the
money.
Karen Koehler (27:05):
Someone else.
Mo Hamoudi (27:06):
Someone else can take care of it.
You don't want to do it, youdon't want to touch it.
Karen Koehler (27:10):
So I think you need to, can take control of of
it and stop, stop.
You've, you've I don't want tosay you've demonized it because
you haven't, but you have,you've put it away and you've
used your credo of moralsuperiority.
Moral superiority that's fairto less, to to that's fair to
(27:45):
kind of diminish it.
Good criticism, moralsuperiority, go on a journey.
What I've learned about money,first of all, I need to, I need
to really feel that it's part ofour justice system in order to
ask for it.
If I didn't believe it, then Iwouldn't do good, yeah, you can
tell, I really believe it.
Um, so I needed to do that.
(28:06):
I need to figure out, like,what is real to me, what, what
will make, what is right, whatis, and so I have that thing.
But the second thing is andyou've rejected this every time
I've brought it up with you oh,boy, and and part of it is part
of the episode that we canceledthat we're not sharing with
anyone um, which was about eliteplaintiff lawyer groups.
(28:45):
Oh yeah, um, yeah, again, I'man older plaintiff lawyer.
I've been doing this a longtime.
Oh yeah, or they're high,because people know I try cases
In this kind of dog-eat-dogworld of litigation, the power
structure is important and wetalked about being in or out of
an elite group.
For someone like me, I literallydon't care, and I can say that
(29:10):
because, a I have a reputation,but B I also have money.
I mean, as gross as that seems,it is a measure of it's seen as
and treated as, and it was notinherited right.
I have no inherited wealthwhatsoever and I was a single
parent of three children who hadno child support, no alimony,
(29:34):
who worked part-time before Igot divorced, so it is a leveler
.
So if someone thinks thatthey're better than me and they
want to take me on, they can tryon the merits, but they can't
try to one-up me because theythink that they can dominate me
(29:56):
financially, which is whatplaintiff lawyers do.
There is a pecking order ofthat.
I'm high up in the peckingorder.
Mo Hamoudi (30:05):
Yeah, I mean.
What I can say is that.
Karen Koehler (30:08):
It's a reality, it's part of the power structure
.
Mo Hamoudi (30:11):
It's what I call the economic structure of
plaintiff's practice is whatyou've just described, and the
power starts at the top andtrickles down.
Karen Koehler (30:23):
It's not just plaintiffs Like Elon Musk is
coming off of changing ourgovernment.
Do you think that he would havehad a foot in the door if he
wasn't a billionaire?
No, he would not.
Mo Hamoudi (30:34):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (30:34):
His power comes from his wealth.
Wealth.
Mike Todd (30:38):
Well, yeah, I mean, but power doesn't have to come
from wealth.
It doesn't.
It doesn't.
And I also think you know Imean I have, even now, even now,
throughout my life, I have notcared about money.
Even now, even now, throughoutmy life, I have not cared about
money.
I cared about getting respectfor what I do and doing a good
(31:02):
job at what I do.
Money comes along with that, butI still don't pay attention to
it.
My wife takes care of all ofour finances.
I don't ever look at what Imake or what we have.
I depend on her to tell me ifwe're spending too much so that
(31:24):
I slow down.
But I also, and for a long time,I thought that, you know,
anything that was judged bymoney was something that I
didn't really want to be part of.
And then I became part of thisfirm and learned more about how
money can be used to changethings in a positive way.
(31:48):
A lot of that was, like yousaid, I had demonized money.
And you know, a lot of that was, like you said money, I had
demonized money.
And I think that you can stillhave my personal belief of not
being concerned about it,partially because I mean, mo,
you came from very poorbeginnings, so you know you can
(32:09):
survive when you're poor, yeah,yeah.
You can survive when you'repoor, yeah, yeah.
So if you don't have that fear,then they don't have as much
power pushing the money as anissue, and you can still know
that it that it, that it haspower and that you're giving
(32:29):
power to your clients by makingsure that they get the best
results.
Mo Hamoudi (32:39):
I really like what you just said, because what
you've reminded me of is thatwhy I'm so fearless and that
because I don't feel thatanybody has power over me, I
move comfortably within spheresof power and wealth and I never
feel intimidated by those peopleand I actually feel as though I
have a step up on them.
I think you do and I think theyfeel that way, and they feel
(33:03):
intimidated by me because I'venever been responsive to that
kind of structure that you'redescribing.
But one of the things that thecoach and I talked about is that
she said what really works foryou is that you're a really
morally ambitious person, andshe said that having moral
(33:24):
ambitions is a fantastic thing,that money can help you enhance
your ambitions and can reallyhelp you help in ways that you
could never imagine, and thatyou could do better with it.
But it hasn't dissuaded me fromconfronting my relationship
with it.
Karen Koehler (33:42):
So let me give you some examples that are very
specific to plaintiff lawyers.
When I talk about the powerstructure of the plaintiff bar
because maybe it isplaintiff-related more than
normal life and I have beeneverything from plaintiff
beginner to plaintiff senior andeverything in between you are
(34:07):
treated differently by thedefendants.
When you do not have anadequate support system, they
know that they can wear you down, that you do not have the
finances to withstand.
You do get the bigger firmsthat have the pockets of money.
Yes, you are treateddifferently because you can
withstand the onslaught of thedefense.
Mo Hamoudi (34:29):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (34:29):
You can meet it, so they know that they also.
There's a pecking.
Like I said, there is a peckingorder in the plaintiff bar and
I wish that that was true in theplaintiff bar, that you could
do your job, do it fantasticallyand be respected for that and
(34:57):
only measured by that.
But that's not what happens inthe plaintiff bar, because the
more funds that you have, themore advertising you can do.
For example, yes.
You can be on a billboard or abus.
Mo Hamoudi (35:09):
Yes and get more clients.
Karen Koehler (35:11):
Yes, there's all kinds of stuff that you can do,
plaintiff bar and I'm notsaying that any other bar is
different, but the plaintiff baris a scrappy bar.
We only get paid when weresolve cases.
And when you're talking aboutbig stakes litigation, which is
what we do, like really badthing case kind of thing, cases
(35:33):
that it takes a certain amountof pocket to be able to play
that game repeatedly, to theextent that we do.
I mean, it's no secret that inthe 90s the firm lost a million
dollars on tobacco litigation Amillion dollars in the 90s.
Mo Hamoudi (35:53):
In the 90s.
Yeah, what is?
That worth now A lot more, Alot more.
5 to 10, probably.
Karen Koehler (35:58):
That could have bankrupted another firm or the
other firm could not have got it.
And now what you see is there'sbeen some leveling of that
playing field because now thereare these companies that loan
money on cases we don't do thatalmost make.
If we have even one client,it's only because they did it
(36:19):
before we got to them.
We try to talk them out of it.
That's a personal loan but wetry not to do it.
We don't ever do Like.
When the Simon verdict wasappealed that was appealed two
years ago I immediately gotletters from finance companies
saying oh, we see your $, youknow your 40 million, $44
(36:41):
million verdict is on appeal.
We can provide financing in theinterim.
We don't ever do that.
So money is very heavilyconnected to what we do because
of who we're doing it againstand what we're trying to get.
But having said that, I am notdriven by money.
(37:03):
That's not the core of who I am.
I could have retired by now.
I'm not.
I like what I do.
I love what I do.
I'm incredibly driven by what Ido.
The clients would not be happyto hear me say that I'm not
driven by money because that'swhat they can only get is money,
and I'm driven by, you knowwanting to get them a good
result, which means money, but Ipersonally that's never why
(37:26):
I've done this job.
There's other ways that you canmake money.
This is like a very rigorousjob.
Mo Hamoudi (37:35):
I think we need to revisit this topic six months
from now.
Karen Koehler (37:38):
Okay, so this is part two.
Mo Hamoudi (37:40):
This is part two.
And then ask me where I'm atand how I'm doing, because it's
a process.
Karen Koehler (37:44):
Well, how do you feel about it after today?
Mo Hamoudi (37:46):
I feel good.
I mean, I feel as though it'san exciting challenge for me to
enhance what I do by finding arelationship with money.
Karen Koehler (37:56):
I feel like you're about 20% of the way
there.
I like how you come up withthese numbers, I feel like
you're not at 50%, okay, I'm at20%.
Mo Hamoudi (38:07):
I'll take that.
That's good enough for me.
Karen Koehler (38:09):
At least it's better than zero, like the last
time.
I hate money.
What Wait time out?
Mo Hamoudi (38:16):
Wait a minute.
Why did I hire you?
Get out of here, Go back to thepublic defender's.
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