July 30, 2025 • 39 mins
Episode 28: DEI, WAMs, and Legal Power Plays |
Karen Koehler shares the 2008 letter that shook up the American Association for Justice (AAJ), calling out its failure to address diversity in any meaningful way. The fallout was instant. She lost friends, made enemies, and set off a chain reaction that eventually pushed the organization to adopt a formal diversity plan.
Joined by Mo Hamoudi and Mike Todd, the trio breaks down what it takes to call out power from within. Karen confronts the reality of being a woman in a white male-dominated legal association, while Mo shares his own story of challenging performative DEI during his time at the Federal Public Defender. Mike weighs in on the backroom politics of change and how real reform often depends on who is even allowed to write a letter (and have it taken seriously) in the first place.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mo Hamoudi (00:00):
So okay, so we have a flight in two hours, we're
going to San Francisco, and whatare we doing in San Francisco
together?
Karen Koehler (00:07):
We're going to AAJ.
Mo Hamoudi (00:09):
And what is AAJ?
Karen Koehler (00:11):
American Association for Justice, all
right.
It's a trial lawyer bar.
Mo Hamoudi (00:15):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (00:15):
And we're going to go back in time to this is my
evidence folder here.
A little fight I had at AAJ,actually one of many, but just
one.
Mo Hamoudi (00:25):
You in a fight, a shocker, shocker.
Karen Koehler (00:31):
And it always involves the same subject.
You probably know what thesubject is.
Mo Hamoudi (00:40):
It's not about food .
Karen Koehler (00:43):
It's always about diversity.
Mo Hamoudi (00:44):
It's always about diversity.
Karen Koehler (00:46):
yes, so I have.
I mean, I kept so much stuff.
It's very interesting.
This is my whole folder on thisthing.
So, mike, you can probably zoomin on this.
Here was a seminar that I wasgoing to go speak at, and what I
would do whenever I would get aseminar program would be I
(01:07):
would go through it and I wouldcheck, I would count.
My kids have talked about mecounting before.
So there are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
speakers on this program.
It's in Jazz Fest, so it meansit's in New Orleans.
(01:29):
They still kind of have it, butwe do it every year as a
speaker there.
So I go through and I count One, two, three, three.
There are three non-white malespeakers on this program, three
(01:51):
of 14.
Mo Hamoudi (01:52):
What year is that?
Karen Koehler (01:55):
This is, although I dare you to go do it
again.
This was in 2009.
Mo Hamoudi (02:00):
2009, okay.
Karen Koehler (02:01):
And then I would go through their trial magazine
and, by the way, I love AJ,they do fantastic work 2009.
Okay, and then I would go, like, through their trial magazine
and, by the way, I love AJ, theydo fantastic work and they are
a huge presence in Washington DC, but that doesn't mean that
they can't do better.
Mo Hamoudi (02:17):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (02:17):
And so I would go through right, I would go
through their magazine thatcomes out every month, through
their, their magazine that comesout every month, and I would.
I would look to see how manyarticles count and I would count
, I would go through them.
There was staff count, staffwould write some articles.
(02:37):
I'm gonna write okay, here'sone bill.
Bill wrote this article.
It's like five pages long.
Jeffrey wrote this one.
Mo Hamoudi (02:47):
Who's Bill, who's Jeffrey?
Karen Koehler (02:48):
Well, I'm just saying, donald.
Mo Hamoudi (02:50):
Oh, you're just kind of calling them out.
Mike Todd (02:53):
Stephen Just calling out white men names.
Essentially, that's right.
Karen Koehler (02:56):
Mark, mark and I know most of them and they're
really good, irwin.
Mo Hamoudi (03:01):
Oh.
Karen Koehler (03:03):
Irwin, irwin, and there you have it.
Mo Hamoudi (03:08):
No Moe, no Karen, no Lisa.
Karen Koehler (03:13):
I mean so this was this article came out, yeah,
in 2019.
Mo Hamoudi (03:19):
What year is that, maggie, 2009, also 2009.
Karen Koehler (03:22):
So Okay, I wrote a letter.
I wrote an email, oops.
So I wrote a letter.
I wrote an email, oops.
And I wrote this email in 2008.
At the time, I was president ofthe trial lawyers here in
Washington State.
Obviously a little too full ofmyself, and I wrote this here.
I wrote this.
Obviously a little too full ofmyself and I wrote this here.
(03:44):
I wrote this.
I write this letter to AEJ andI sent it to the board of
directors and the executives.
I write this letter to AEJafter attending the Midwinter
Convention in Puerto Rico.
(04:06):
Let me just skip to the part Iwas talking about being at the
Council of Presidents and thisparade of people.
It is my opinion that AAJ'sleadership has utterly failed to
appreciate and take action onthe issue of diversity in an
institutional manner that canhave hope of any true result, in
(04:26):
an institutional manner thatcan have hope of any true result
.
I share this, not out of a needto engage in negative criticism
, but with the hope that byfrank expression of opinion,
perhaps I can make some sort ofa difference.
For too long I have listened tothe sugarcoating, the talking
around, the politically correctstatements of AAJ in relation to
this issue, until people arenot worried about making waves,
whatever the internal politicalrepercussions, aaj will continue
(04:48):
to flander, even regress, onthis most important issue.
Blah, blah, blah.
For this is what the currentframework is.
Leadership goes, in this case,to the Women's Caucus or the
Minority Caucus, both of which Ibelong to, and asks the people
to get more involved so changecan occur.
They ask these members toassume leadership positions or
(05:11):
to speak or to become visible.
This strategy shows itselfperhaps at its worst when, at
the Minority Caucus, the lineupof male leadership stops by for
a total of five minutes max.
Not only do they say quote, getinvolved, but they also urge us
to make more money so we canafford to be one of them and
then, nodding and smiling, theyleave.
(05:31):
This is not how diversityhappens.
You do not go and mouthplatitudes and act eagerly for
people to step up.
Such a passive approach willnever bear fruit Without the
consciousness of a female orminority leader who will reach
out and grab a like person.
(05:53):
The rest of the leadershipseemingly flows with the status
quo.
The newest push by AAJ is tohave women and minorities quote,
get active within theirsections.
Let me tell you of myexperience in the motor vehicle
highway premises section.
That's one that I was presidentof and I became an officer in.
(06:14):
I became an officer because Iwas the first speaker one
morning and a nominee failed toshow.
Over the next three years,until I became the chair, there
were no other females orminorities on the roster.
Each year a wham.
Now you know what a wham is.
Mo Hamoudi (06:31):
No, what is that?
Karen Koehler (06:33):
A white alpha male.
Mo Hamoudi (06:35):
A white alpha male?
Karen Koehler (06:36):
Yes, okay, wham Each year a wham would caucus
with friends and put himself onthe ballot, daring anyone to
challenge him.
The year I was chair, threewhams from New York wanted to be
on the roster.
I literally exerted executiveauthority, pulled one of the
nominations and told them I wasgoing to Minority Caucus to fill
the slot.
They were surprised but didn'tobject.
(06:57):
I went to Minority Caucus andrecruited an African-American
male.
I told him he now had a missionto make sure that there would
be another minority on the panelwhen he left.
And he did Blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah.
Within days of becoming chair ofthe MVC section, I received
email after email and phonecalls from WAMs who desired to
(07:19):
speak at the next year'sconvention.
I offended many of them bytelling them I would get back to
them if I determined theirtopic would fit within our
program.
I then physically recruitedfemale and minority speakers for
the panel.
Until and unless you havediverse section leaders who are
conscious of the need to promotediversity, you will not have
diverse speakers in your sectionCLEs.
(07:40):
So there are at least twoproblems A little to no
safeguards within theorganization to ensure that
diversity is not just hoped forbut effectuated, and B no
reaching out and into thecaucuses to pluck and place
diverse members into positionsthat feed into the leadership
chain.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
(08:00):
Okay, I'm very confrontationalof a person sometimes.
I just am.
I'm just very direct.
That wasn't thatconfrontational.
I didn't put in everything.
It was totally confrontational.
Oh, it was the president thenof AAJ said.
This is his first response tome.
It was a thought it was thisemail.
(08:22):
I didn't read the whole thing.
It was four pages long, singlespaced okay I wrote it on an
airplane.
He wrote back, so this is hisfirst statement.
You're the first person who'sever called me an alpha male,
with or without a racialadjective, or a wham, as you put
it.
I won't take offense, because Ido understand and share your
(08:43):
frustration.
You and I have never discussedthese issues.
It is apparent that you do notknow who I am and really have no
idea how I feel about theseissues, and you have no idea
what I've done to promote womenand minorities within and
without AHA.
I would suggest that you askaround before you make
assumptions about my and actions, or you can ask me directly
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
(09:04):
It was, it was, it was um, um,yeah.
So I, of course, responded.
I never don't respond.
Mo Hamoudi (09:21):
Yeah, I know that.
Karen Koehler (09:22):
I always want to have the last word.
Mo Hamoudi (09:23):
Yes, you do respond .
Karen Koehler (09:25):
Yeah, I know that I always want to have the
last word.
Yes, you do.
And basically, again, it's athree-paragraph, but I just want
to read a little bit.
I'm not within the inner groupof AAJM and I'm not vested in
having to be delicate with myconcern like so many others who
wish more could be done, perhaps, who even quietly try to get
things done, but who run intoinstitutional roadblocks.
(09:45):
I am that focus groupparticipant who has a different
perspective than you do, forwhatever reason, the one you may
not want to hear but need tohear in order to get it right.
I am rattling the cages andhoping you will see, beyond the
initial feeling of beingpersonally tapped, to my true
purpose of promoting radicalinternal examination and
proactive correction of aaj'sdiversity problem.
(10:06):
Okay, I mean, this continues on, but what do you want to talk
about?
I'm going back to aaj.
A lot of people don't like mebecause this is how I am a lot
of people at aaj don't like you.
Certain people, or justgenerally speaking people, don't
like you, certain people at AAJdon't like me.
Mo Hamoudi (10:27):
That's their problem.
Karen Koehler (10:28):
Okay.
Mo Hamoudi (10:32):
What do you want to talk about?
Karen Koehler (10:33):
I want to talk about when you are in an
institution.
Mo Hamoudi (10:35):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (10:36):
And you want there to be change.
Yeah, there's a politic way togo about it.
Mo Hamoudi (10:40):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (10:41):
And then there's the non-politic way, mike, to
go about it, yes, and thenthere's the non-politic way,
mike.
Which way did I choose?
Mo Hamoudi (10:47):
The non-politic way .
I just think that that wasactually politic.
Karen Koehler (10:52):
The reason.
Mike Todd (10:53):
Well, there's different very there's different
degrees of politic.
Yes, she's using a politicaltactic which is attacking by the
front.
Karen Koehler (11:02):
As opposed to as opposed to.
Mike Todd (11:04):
As opposed, most politics come from the back.
Oh, that's right.
Okay, they try to like sneak inand mix it up within the
institution itself, where Karenwent frontally and just slammed
through the front door.
Mo Hamoudi (11:21):
Attila the Hun, yes , Not Sun Tzu Attila theahan.
Yes, not Sun Tzu Atilla Dahan,yes.
Mike Todd (11:27):
And that works sometimes, but it also like in
this instance, I feel, at leastfrom what you read he just went
with the stock answer of I do somuch.
You don't even know what I'mdoing.
And how could you accuse me ofbeing like this when I'm not
like this at all?
You can talk to all of myfemale friends and they will
(11:49):
tell you that I am a great.
I have lots of, I have lots offriends that are of minority
groups and I've promoted two orthree of them throughout my
entire career.
I mean, that's what they'resaying, that's how they, that's
how those people talk.
Karen Koehler (12:01):
So what happened was and I lost a friend because
of this, because she was alsoin the circle of presidents and
she basically went to them andsaid that she didn't, that I
didn't speak for her, and youknow that she was embarrassed or
apologized for my behavior, andI told her.
She stabbed me in the back andI just cut her for my life.
Um, so so, but so this was in2008.
(12:26):
Okay, I had no power within aaj.
I.
I had had no desire to go, asyou can tell, up through the
ranks to become an officer inaaj.
There's, it's very political.
I'm not, I think, like you know, united states political.
That's not me.
It has a lot of requirements.
(12:47):
They are more politician um,just all not me, and so I had
nothing to lose, but it wasinteresting to watch what
happened.
So, after that happened, there'ssome things that happened that
I'm not going to go into becauseit's a long story, but if you
(13:09):
go back about four or five yearsago, I was in a group one of
the most and I think I mighthave talked about this once one
of the most.
They have these litigationgroups which are very powerful
and very, very good, like if youwant to go to a particular area
of law.
They have these groups andthese groups can become powerful
(13:33):
and I was in a very powerfulone and it was so dysfunctional.
There were like three women inthe inner circle of this
executive litigation committeewhich I had been brought into,
and all these New York, texas,california, whams sorry, yeah,
(13:56):
like there was no minorities inthere, it was all male and then
three women, maybe four, threeor four women, um total of out
of like 30 and the executive,because once you were in the
executive litigation group, youwere never out of it.
So it was, it was, it was anyway.
They were promoting a wholenother slate of dudes and I did
(14:20):
something similar to this.
I called him out and I said I'mdone, I, I, I have no tolerance
of of this and I left thatgroup and that's what I've done
ever since is I'm just like, I'mjust, I'm just done with it,
like I don't care enough anymore.
I cared more than in 2009, butlet me tell you what happened
(14:40):
between those two events 2009and 2000, let's say 22 maybe I
became a board member of aajbecause someone needed to do it
from our state and I went and Iwas asked to do it.
And that group, that leadershipgroup within aaj, circled their
(15:03):
wagons and contacted leadership, executive, leadership of
trialers in Washington State andtold me that they backed.
They didn't back me, theybacked my archenemy who I was no
longer talking, the one thatwas who was behind them when you
(15:25):
?
did the first letter.
Which they're prohibited fromever interfering in state
organizations, but they all didit.
Mo Hamoudi (15:34):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (15:35):
And this is why.
So, when I go to AAJ, I havemixed feelings.
There's the people I like, andthen there's the people I don't
like things.
There's the people I like, andthen there's the people I don't
like.
Mike Todd (15:47):
So my question would be why do you participate at all
?
Karen Koehler (15:57):
Good point, right, because they are so
valuable.
Like I donate a lot of money tothem because their lobbyists
are bar none, probably some ofthe greatest ones I've ever
known.
Because how does a small littleorganization go up against big
pharma, big business, biginsurance and prevent tort
reform on a national level?
It's because of organizationslike AAJ, which are few and far
(16:17):
between, so that's a huge reason.
Reason and the second one isbecause for all of the people
that I don't like, there's maybenot as many that I do really
really like, and I think that'sthe lesson of life in general.
Like, no matter where you are,when you're in a group, even in
(16:40):
an office, you're never gonna bebuddies with everyone.
But that doesn't mean that youdon't benefit from it.
So I have just really goodfriends that I like to see.
I don't learn as much as I usedto because I'm one of the older
people that even go to theseorganizations now, but I also am
(17:02):
very interested in what's new.
I'm a curious mind and I reallylove some of the people.
Mike Todd (17:10):
So I guess my question would be was your
original letter effective inchange?
Karen Koehler (17:17):
So what happened was, after that happened, which
I didn't go into, I was amember of the Minority Caucus
and we decided to ask them toimplement a diversity mission
statement, a diversity plan forthe organization.
(17:42):
The organization had not had oneand trial lawyers here in
Washington State had had one forover 10 years.
So we just took that one, edand I worked on it and re-edited
it, but we were met with a lotof opposition, shocker.
So we've presented it andwalked away from it, and then
(18:04):
they all, so they did not takeit and adopt it.
What they did is they startedfrom scratch?
Maybe they took it and adopt it.
What they did is they startedfrom scratch.
Maybe they took a peek at it,but they did implement a
diversity plan within theorganization and the
organization has gotten better,although there's examples, like
I just told you, of the groupthat I just left a couple years
(18:24):
ago, where it was same old, sameold.
So they try, but and now, now Idon't even know if they would
even try, because can we evenhave diversity anymore?
Mike Todd (18:38):
no yeah I'll say it we can't right now, in this
political environment.
Karen Koehler (18:43):
We've got major us companies who are bowing to
the king so when I, when Ihuffed and puffed and left that
other if I'm going to go out,I'm going to go out with a bang
and so I wrote and did blogs andall that stuff when I left that
executive litigation group Idon't want to say they got in
trouble, but they got watchedthey got a staff person assigned
(19:07):
to go there they had to make arule change.
Um, I don't know how muchthey've changed since then,
Cause I don't go back there, butmy little have some puffs, have
always got some kind ofreaction.
That's led to something elseand that's, I guess, the my
point of my story today.
(19:28):
I could go sit there and becomepart of the process and, you
know, follow all the rules andbe polite and just gently guide
people.
But that's not my way.
My way, as was described byGerhard Letzing, executive
director of the Washington StateTrial Lawyers Association for
(19:49):
30 years, was Karen Thoreau'sbombs, and you better just hope
she doesn't throw them your way.
But they're not because of justmy own, for my own personal
satisfaction, although sometimesthey kind of are, because I
like to see what happens.
But I don't think that you canalways make change peacefully, I
(20:11):
don't.
I think that you a lot of timeshave to just throw the bomb.
The question is what is yourmotivation?
My motivation was like let'smake this world a better place.
Let's not have three out of 14speakers be non-white male men
(20:32):
even if they are effective atlobbying in the political
environment yeah, I don't.
I mean that's the whole point mo.
You've been very quiet well,I'm listening mo.
So Mo is very politic and hedoesn't throw bombs.
Mo Hamoudi (20:50):
That's not necessarily true.
Mike Todd (20:53):
He throws them a lot more sneakily than he would.
Karen Koehler (20:56):
What bombs have you thrown?
Not that it's a good thing, mo,you don't have to be.
Mo Hamoudi (21:02):
It's not like it's a good thing or a bad thing, but
I guess I don't view the emailthat you wrote a bomb.
I just view your email as avery vulnerable and transparent
call out to do something correct.
That was what you perceived tobe incorrect.
Karen Koehler (21:18):
I call them whams.
I call the current president awham.
Mo Hamoudi (21:22):
By the way, I don't think alpha male is White.
Alpha male Okay, the white, Iget it, but like I don't know
what, would you call me a?
Karen Koehler (21:28):
brown alpha male .
I didn't come up with that, bythe way.
Mo Hamoudi (21:31):
I didn't come up with that, someone else did, and
I thought, yeah, that's a goodway to put it, but if you called
me an alpha male, I'd be likethank you for the compliment,
but I don't know why that guytook the email the way he did.
He wasn't just the AmericanAssociation for Justice.
(21:52):
Whoever he is, it was clear tome that he got very defensive
for the wrong reasons and he hadan opportunity to be like hey,
karen, thanks for pointing thatout.
I just looked at the—.
Karen Koehler (21:58):
Okay, but you've changed the subject.
Mo Hamoudi (21:59):
What do you want to know?
Karen Koehler (22:00):
You were supposed to tell us if you've
ever thrown a bomb.
I can't believe that you have.
You might have thought of thebombs you can throw.
Mo Hamoudi (22:07):
No, I have thrown bombs.
I.
You might have thought of thebombs you can throw.
No, I have thrown bombs I.
Just can't, right now, in themiddle of the podcast, remember
precise examples he hasn't.
Karen Koehler (22:14):
I'm telling you, I'm going to call you out on it
.
Mo Hamoudi (22:17):
I have, I just I cannot recall.
Karen Koehler (22:20):
I'm not talking about when you were five,
laughing, laughing, laughing inan organization.
I mean, Mike, have you everdone anything like that?
It does take a certain level of.
Mike Todd (22:37):
I'm more, I will say I am more backroom than I am.
Frontal assault.
Yeah, when it comes topolitical situations and that's
because I'm usually coming, Imean, you know like I'm not
anyone of importance in most ofthose situations.
So you, like I would say, whenyou wrote that letter, you did
(23:03):
it knowing that you had aposition where you could make
that statement and still getaway with it, where borderline,
I mean if one of the newattorneys at our firm did that
in 2008 right what would happen?
right, they probably wouldn'thave gotten a response at all at
(23:24):
all.
It would have been ignored yeahentirely, and that's why those
you know, that's why people inpositions of power are able to
get away with stuff like that,because they are allowed to
ignore the rank and file if theywant to.
That's you know, whereas youcame from someone who you were,
(23:51):
someone who had been inpositions that were in power at
a state level, so they had torespond to you.
If they didn't, it would havebeen worse for them.
Karen Koehler (23:58):
It's true.
Mike Todd (23:59):
And and I mean I hate to point this at both of you,
but you guys are all attorneys,so you have the fear of a legal
fight in situations like that,like if they dismissed you and
ignored it and continued thething, then you would have had
the possibility of bringing somesort of litigation against them
(24:21):
.
You know, yeah, okay, not forsure, but at some point it's
possible.
Karen Koehler (24:27):
Because Moe's been feverishly thinking about a
bomb.
Mo Hamoudi (24:33):
Okay, I was on a DEI committee and I threw a bomb
.
Karen Koehler (24:36):
Wait where.
Mo Hamoudi (24:38):
At my former job at the Federal Public Defender.
Karen Koehler (24:41):
What did you throw?
Mo Hamoudi (24:42):
I taught that the DEI initiative was misplaced, a
drain.
It was self-involved,self-indulgent.
It was basically an opportunityfor people to, in a silo,
complain about personal stuffand nonsense, and the email I
(25:07):
sent was that the mission ofthis institution is to help
people who are poor, who can'taccess the courts, and none of
our clients, who are right nowlocked up at the federal
detention center, care a lickabout diversity, equity,
inclusion.
They want to know how the hellare we going to help them, and
(25:27):
so sometimes I think thesediversity initiatives, in my
view, become something that istotally untethered from mission.
So that's when I threw a bomband it caused quite a bit of
ruckus, because I'm a diverseperson, I come from a diverse
(25:50):
background.
Karen Koehler (25:50):
You weren't saying that you believe that
there should not be any DEIA.
You're saying that you need tohave a good mission.
Mo Hamoudi (26:01):
No, I was saying that and I was making a larger
observation, that everybody gotcaught up with the dei issues in
2019, 2020.
Um, with the black lives mattermovement, it just things
started to like move quite in aparticular direction and then
(26:21):
what I started to realize waslike it's just moving for its
own sake and and and it's notreally doing anything to advance
a particular institution'smission, in my view, like our
mission, I don't know, you know,and then I started to see
examples of it in otherorganizations and I was like
(26:44):
this has become a distraction.
It's just like to talk fortalk's sake.
So I don't disagree with theconcept of diversity, equity and
inclusion.
I think that, like, where Istarted to throw bombs was that
I started to be a counterpointto the movement in very
particularized circumstances.
Karen Koehler (27:01):
Yeah, because I just want to like grab you by
the throat right now, likebecause you're a little bit
vague, and so I'm thinking likewho are you?
Mo Hamoudi (27:09):
What do you mean?
Who am I?
Are you?
Karen Koehler (27:10):
like?
Are you like one of DonaldTrump's henchmen that are trying
to get rid of all DEIA programs?
Mo Hamoudi (27:16):
No, absolutely not, Absolutely not.
I just think that, likesometimes, organizations
implement DEI for the purpose ofpeople in the organization to
feel good about themselves.
They have really nothing to doabout what the core problem with
issues related to diversity,equity and inclusion are and
(27:37):
they're not really serious aboutconfronting it, but they put on
the—.
Mike Todd (27:41):
That's what I would go with.
This is that it's not justthat— it's that they're
implementing a policy for thevisual.
Yes, it's not an actual.
They don't have the purpose ofit doing anything.
It's just there to say thatthey have it.
Mo Hamoudi (27:58):
Yes, and so when you go start to, the only way
you know this is if you get intoan organization's committee and
you start to hear people talkand then you say, what are you
guys talking about?
Like this is all a waste oftime, and so you know, I get the
sense that you know.
Like I mean, aaj has theminority caucus.
(28:20):
I'm looking at it, I want to govisit it.
Karen Koehler (28:22):
AAJ has made a lot of strides since 2009.
Mo Hamoudi (28:25):
But I don't know what the minority caucus is
really doing.
I'm going to go this year.
I'm going to go spend some time.
Our friend Ed Moore is going tocome in and vouch for me.
This is Mo.
I know him.
Karen Koehler (28:34):
He's a guy, they're going to have listened
to this podcast and they're notgoing to let you in.
Exactly Well why not?
Because you said you're againstthe EIA.
Mo Hamoudi (28:42):
That's not what I said.
Mike did.
I say I'm against the.
Mike Todd (28:45):
No, you said you were against the policy that they
had at the time at the placethat you were.
Mo Hamoudi (28:48):
Thank you, look at you, look at what you do.
Mike Todd (28:51):
I know she's like a shark.
Mo Hamoudi (28:54):
She's a shark, chummed water.
She's like.
Karen Koehler (28:59):
I do it all the time He'll call me.
He'll be kind of placid.
I'm like I just don't want totalk to anymore.
You're really boring.
He's like what I said I'm hereto be entertained, like I need
some stuff, okay.
Mo Hamoudi (29:14):
Definitely entertaining, by the way, I mean
.
But really, why do you thinkthere's been a huge political
shift?
Because the DEI, the way it wasimplemented, in many ways was
unattractive to people, becauseit wasn't about diversity issues
.
It was about people feelingself-important, like I'm, the
leader of diversity, equity andinclusion.
Karen Koehler (29:35):
Okay, you're being overly broad, Good.
Mike Todd (29:39):
I would say that it goes even further in that the
people that Karen is talkingabout who you know 20— years ago
, were the heads of all of thoseboards.
They never wanted DEI to beginwith.
So when you fast forward towhen you're talking about, then
(30:04):
they have the conservativebacklash that we have right now.
I think a lot of people whoprobably implemented things at
their companies were like I justdid this because we had to.
Like I said, yeah.
And now they're like great, wedon't have to do it anymore.
It was never about what Karenwas talking about when she wrote
that letter the first time,which is let's have some
(30:25):
positive change, let's get adifferent perspective here,
which we've established overthese podcasts.
It's one of the things that youhave and one of the things that
Karen has.
But a fucking 70-year-old whitedude who's been sitting on the
top of a board forever.
He doesn't have any idea.
He's never needed any diversity.
(30:48):
He's never needed any of thatstuff.
But, mike, you're absolutelyright.
Mo Hamoudi (30:53):
Oh, I know I am, You're absolutely right, yeah,
the other thing is is that youdon't need a DEI initiative.
Karen Koehler (31:01):
By the way, one of the reasons I've always
believed that there has beenthis huge issue, including an
attorney organization where Imean, like I just told you, the
best thing about this is itspolitical program, its mission
it's helping other people youwould and you would think that
(31:23):
that's the kind of change thatwe're talking about right now
they should be leading thechange
yeah look at our entire industryas playing a personal injury.
It is heavy white male at thetop, Heavy, heavy, heavy, so
heavy.
I mean globally.
You know it's still very, verynot diverse, but when you look
(31:44):
at who's at the top of theprofession, it is enormously.
Mo Hamoudi (31:49):
Old white dudes, it's so true, and they're good
looking.
Karen Koehler (31:55):
And they have really good skin.
But they don't want to give up.
Mike Todd (32:01):
I'm laughing because you said all the people at AAJ
look beautiful.
Mo Hamoudi (32:04):
They're like the most good looking people.
Well, they can afford it, Imean they are beautiful and
fantastic looking.
Karen Koehler (32:11):
Just think about it.
There is so much money andpower involved in making the
decision to give equalopportunity to other people that
are not in that white maleprivilege circle it is why would
you voluntarily give it up?
Mike Todd (32:32):
You wouldn't.
Well, I mean, that's what'slike I said.
I feel like that is the one ofthe big things about today's
political environment is.
I see all these people sayingthat they don't like the changes
that are happening in thiscountry.
Yet they continue to let themhappen, and I guarantee it's
because of what?
The same kind of thing that mydad told me one of the times
(32:54):
that he was voting for somebodythat I didn't agree with.
It's because, in the end, it'sall about money.
That's what they want, and ifthey can convince you that the
money is going to keep flowingtowards you, people vote for it,
no matter what they believe.
Karen Koehler (33:08):
There are people in AAJ that they're all whams
that just go around, and theyare.
They want to be the chair ofevery single section.
They're this collect them likeyou know.
But yeah, put putting your beltbuckle.
You look at their.
Mike Todd (33:23):
CV.
They've got a list it's just amile long.
Karen Koehler (33:26):
I'm the head of trucking.
I'm the head of brain injury.
I'm the head of medicalnegligence.
I'm the head of trucking.
I'm the head of brain injury.
I'm the head of medicalnegligence.
I'm the head of motor vehicles.
I'm the head.
Yeah, they and they just go andthere's nothing to stop it.
That's an organizational failure, because that personality type
which is gonna face it, anaggressive person yeah who
(33:48):
happens to typically be whitemale, will get ahead because
they're so freaking aggressivethey're going to, and if you
don't have institutionalsafeguards, they're just going
to go around and take advantageof every single opportunity.
It's like the day that I becamethe chair of it, I got all
these emails, all from whamssaying that they wanted to be on
(34:17):
the program a year it would belike in august of the next year
to speak.
I was like this is how it goes,like you don't even have time
to go and see who else wants tospeak, that it's just there.
These same people that are theheads of everything are speaking
at everything because they wantall the referrals they want.
(34:38):
You know, it's market shareMoney money money, money.
But if an institution doesn'thave safeguards, that's what
happens.
Mo Hamoudi (34:49):
Well, I mean, that's the institution, that's
the way it's designed.
Karen Koehler (34:54):
All of these institutions are designed by the
patriarchy.
Mo Hamoudi (34:57):
But I can tell you something.
Karen Koehler (34:58):
I can tell you that they were all designed by
men, just like this country.
Mo Hamoudi (35:01):
But I can tell you that a lot of these
organizations are not attractive.
Karen Koehler (35:06):
Mike is just dying over there.
Mike Todd (35:07):
Here's Karen standing against the tide of history.
Karen Koehler (35:10):
It's true.
Mo Hamoudi (35:12):
Well, okay, but that's history, that's ground
truth.
Karen Koehler (35:15):
We're still living in history.
Why isn't it changing, asAlicia used to tell me and I was
like hey, good point.
Why is there a thing calledprecedent?
Why do we have to rely onprecedent?
That's a whole other subject.
Why is it so hallowed?
Mike Todd (35:29):
Yeah, I think we can do a whole nother episode on
that one.
Karen Koehler (35:31):
Look where it came from.
What the heck we're going toconstruct.
Mike Todd (35:36):
Okay, mo.
What were you going to say?
Okay, go ahead.
Karen Koehler (35:39):
You're just getting me going.
Mike Todd (35:41):
I think what.
Mo Hamoudi (35:42):
I was going to say is that I'll tell you that the
generational lawyers that arecoming up think this is like
that.
You know like think this islike that, you know, like yeah,
you know, like they're, likethey think it's, they think it's
like, oh, like it's 1990s, like, oh, go to your little
organization.
And like I can tell you rightnow, the lawyers are like,
(36:02):
whatever these organizations aregoing to become eventually
irrelevant, and the way that lawis being practiced, the way
that lawyers are organizingaround issues and matters are
outside of these organizations.
So this is why I told Mike Iwas like this is a place where
you go watch all the goodlooking people yeah.
Karen Koehler (36:21):
But it's sad because, like I said, their
lobbying efforts are crucial.
Mo Hamoudi (36:26):
I think they'll just change.
I think the lobbying effortsare going to change.
Mike Todd (36:29):
I was going to say there needs to be new
organizations is the problem.
You need to start new ones fromthe ground up, which it's not
going to be easy.
Karen Koehler (36:37):
AJ, I still love you.
Don't listen to this.
Even though I'm critical of it,I still love it.
Mo Hamoudi (36:46):
Nobody from AJ has reached out to me affirmatively
and said oh my goodness, welcometo the practice.
Karen Koehler (36:52):
No, they will never.
It's too big.
Mo Hamoudi (36:54):
Okay, fine.
Karen Koehler (36:56):
Did WSAJ reach out to you?
Mo Hamoudi (36:59):
No, nobody from WSAJ.
Oh wait, Elizabeth Hanleyreached out to me and asked me
for help.
That's different.
Mike Todd (37:06):
That's different.
That's not saying hey, welcome.
Mo Hamoudi (37:08):
No, but she didn't.
Karen Koehler (37:12):
You're making this up, mo.
When you first became aplaintiff lawyer, did anybody
contact you from anyorganization?
No okay, you could have saidthat faster.
You didn't even have to thinkabout that.
Mo Hamoudi (37:21):
That was just like no no, but maybe they just
didn't know who the hell I wasno, it doesn't, who cares?
Mike Todd (37:26):
they saw that you were hired by strip matter and,
trust me, they knew who stripmatter is is because Karen bugs
them all the time.
That's right, and they knew whoit was before, because we had a
couple whams here too, yeah.
Karen Koehler (37:40):
All right.
Well, this is you know.
Here we go.
Mo Hamoudi (37:44):
We're off to see the AAJs, and I can't believe.
You think I'm a Trump supporter.
Mike Todd (37:53):
Well, it came out that way.
No, I didn't say that.
Karen Koehler (37:55):
I mean come on, I did.
Mike Todd (37:57):
She did say that we're going to be the best.
Mo Hamoudi (38:00):
Number one, we're going to be the best.
It's huge, it's huge.
Karen Koehler (38:06):
But here's my final part.
So I know they don't like me.
The people that don't like me,the people that don't like me,
don't like me, and they probablyknow that I don't like them,
but this is what I do at AHA.
So good to see you.
How are you Exactly?
And thank God.
They have to wear name tagsbecause all my arms look the
(38:28):
same to me.
Now I'm pretty distinctivelooking.
They know what I look like, butI literally can't tell one
apart from the other.
Mike Todd (38:35):
I can't believe.
You just said that they alllook the same to me.
Karen Koehler (38:37):
I can't help it.
It's true.
Mo Hamoudi (38:39):
And I don't think it's bad being an alpha male.
Karen Koehler (38:43):
Alpha male has nothing to do with it.
Mike Todd (38:44):
Whams, I said, all right, just saying Alpha male's
the second half of wham.
Mo Hamoudi (38:50):
It's the second half of wham.
Like I said, I don't even knowwhere I came up with that.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with being an alpha male.
Karen Koehler (38:56):
Okay, we're going to have to do the alpha.
We'll do the alpha male thenext time.
Mo Hamoudi (38:59):
Yes, exactly.
Karen Koehler (39:00):
In the defense of the alpha male.
Mo Hamoudi (39:01):
I want an episode dedicated to the alpha male.
Karen Koehler (39:06):
Thank you, okay, that's it.
So okay, so we have a flight in two hours, we're
going to San Francisco, and whatare we doing in San Francisco
together?
Karen Koehler (00:07):
We're going to AAJ.
Mo Hamoudi (00:09):
And what is AAJ?
Karen Koehler (00:11):
American Association for Justice, all
right.
It's a trial lawyer bar.
Mo Hamoudi (00:15):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (00:15):
And we're going to go back in time to this is my
evidence folder here.
A little fight I had at AAJ,actually one of many, but just
one.
Mo Hamoudi (00:25):
You in a fight, a shocker, shocker.
Karen Koehler (00:31):
And it always involves the same subject.
You probably know what thesubject is.
Mo Hamoudi (00:40):
It's not about food .
Karen Koehler (00:43):
It's always about diversity.
Mo Hamoudi (00:44):
It's always about diversity.
Karen Koehler (00:46):
yes, so I have.
I mean, I kept so much stuff.
It's very interesting.
This is my whole folder on thisthing.
So, mike, you can probably zoomin on this.
Here was a seminar that I wasgoing to go speak at, and what I
would do whenever I would get aseminar program would be I
(01:07):
would go through it and I wouldcheck, I would count.
My kids have talked about mecounting before.
So there are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
speakers on this program.
It's in Jazz Fest, so it meansit's in New Orleans.
(01:29):
They still kind of have it, butwe do it every year as a
speaker there.
So I go through and I count One, two, three, three.
There are three non-white malespeakers on this program, three
(01:51):
of 14.
Mo Hamoudi (01:52):
What year is that?
Karen Koehler (01:55):
This is, although I dare you to go do it
again.
This was in 2009.
Mo Hamoudi (02:00):
2009, okay.
Karen Koehler (02:01):
And then I would go through their trial magazine
and, by the way, I love AJ,they do fantastic work 2009.
Okay, and then I would go, like, through their trial magazine
and, by the way, I love AJ, theydo fantastic work and they are
a huge presence in Washington DC, but that doesn't mean that
they can't do better.
Mo Hamoudi (02:17):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (02:17):
And so I would go through right, I would go
through their magazine thatcomes out every month, through
their, their magazine that comesout every month, and I would.
I would look to see how manyarticles count and I would count
, I would go through them.
There was staff count, staffwould write some articles.
(02:37):
I'm gonna write okay, here'sone bill.
Bill wrote this article.
It's like five pages long.
Jeffrey wrote this one.
Mo Hamoudi (02:47):
Who's Bill, who's Jeffrey?
Karen Koehler (02:48):
Well, I'm just saying, donald.
Mo Hamoudi (02:50):
Oh, you're just kind of calling them out.
Mike Todd (02:53):
Stephen Just calling out white men names.
Essentially, that's right.
Karen Koehler (02:56):
Mark, mark and I know most of them and they're
really good, irwin.
Mo Hamoudi (03:01):
Oh.
Karen Koehler (03:03):
Irwin, irwin, and there you have it.
Mo Hamoudi (03:08):
No Moe, no Karen, no Lisa.
Karen Koehler (03:13):
I mean so this was this article came out, yeah,
in 2019.
Mo Hamoudi (03:19):
What year is that, maggie, 2009, also 2009.
Karen Koehler (03:22):
So Okay, I wrote a letter.
I wrote an email, oops.
So I wrote a letter.
I wrote an email, oops.
And I wrote this email in 2008.
At the time, I was president ofthe trial lawyers here in
Washington State.
Obviously a little too full ofmyself, and I wrote this here.
I wrote this.
Obviously a little too full ofmyself and I wrote this here.
(03:44):
I wrote this.
I write this letter to AEJ andI sent it to the board of
directors and the executives.
I write this letter to AEJafter attending the Midwinter
Convention in Puerto Rico.
(04:06):
Let me just skip to the part Iwas talking about being at the
Council of Presidents and thisparade of people.
It is my opinion that AAJ'sleadership has utterly failed to
appreciate and take action onthe issue of diversity in an
institutional manner that canhave hope of any true result, in
(04:26):
an institutional manner thatcan have hope of any true result
.
I share this, not out of a needto engage in negative criticism
, but with the hope that byfrank expression of opinion,
perhaps I can make some sort ofa difference.
For too long I have listened tothe sugarcoating, the talking
around, the politically correctstatements of AAJ in relation to
this issue, until people arenot worried about making waves,
whatever the internal politicalrepercussions, aaj will continue
(04:48):
to flander, even regress, onthis most important issue.
Blah, blah, blah.
For this is what the currentframework is.
Leadership goes, in this case,to the Women's Caucus or the
Minority Caucus, both of which Ibelong to, and asks the people
to get more involved so changecan occur.
They ask these members toassume leadership positions or
(05:11):
to speak or to become visible.
This strategy shows itselfperhaps at its worst when, at
the Minority Caucus, the lineupof male leadership stops by for
a total of five minutes max.
Not only do they say quote, getinvolved, but they also urge us
to make more money so we canafford to be one of them and
then, nodding and smiling, theyleave.
(05:31):
This is not how diversityhappens.
You do not go and mouthplatitudes and act eagerly for
people to step up.
Such a passive approach willnever bear fruit Without the
consciousness of a female orminority leader who will reach
out and grab a like person.
(05:53):
The rest of the leadershipseemingly flows with the status
quo.
The newest push by AAJ is tohave women and minorities quote,
get active within theirsections.
Let me tell you of myexperience in the motor vehicle
highway premises section.
That's one that I was presidentof and I became an officer in.
(06:14):
I became an officer because Iwas the first speaker one
morning and a nominee failed toshow.
Over the next three years,until I became the chair, there
were no other females orminorities on the roster.
Each year a wham.
Now you know what a wham is.
Mo Hamoudi (06:31):
No, what is that?
Karen Koehler (06:33):
A white alpha male.
Mo Hamoudi (06:35):
A white alpha male?
Karen Koehler (06:36):
Yes, okay, wham Each year a wham would caucus
with friends and put himself onthe ballot, daring anyone to
challenge him.
The year I was chair, threewhams from New York wanted to be
on the roster.
I literally exerted executiveauthority, pulled one of the
nominations and told them I wasgoing to Minority Caucus to fill
the slot.
They were surprised but didn'tobject.
(06:57):
I went to Minority Caucus andrecruited an African-American
male.
I told him he now had a missionto make sure that there would
be another minority on the panelwhen he left.
And he did Blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah.
Within days of becoming chair ofthe MVC section, I received
email after email and phonecalls from WAMs who desired to
(07:19):
speak at the next year'sconvention.
I offended many of them bytelling them I would get back to
them if I determined theirtopic would fit within our
program.
I then physically recruitedfemale and minority speakers for
the panel.
Until and unless you havediverse section leaders who are
conscious of the need to promotediversity, you will not have
diverse speakers in your sectionCLEs.
(07:40):
So there are at least twoproblems A little to no
safeguards within theorganization to ensure that
diversity is not just hoped forbut effectuated, and B no
reaching out and into thecaucuses to pluck and place
diverse members into positionsthat feed into the leadership
chain.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
(08:00):
Okay, I'm very confrontationalof a person sometimes.
I just am.
I'm just very direct.
That wasn't thatconfrontational.
I didn't put in everything.
It was totally confrontational.
Oh, it was the president thenof AAJ said.
This is his first response tome.
It was a thought it was thisemail.
(08:22):
I didn't read the whole thing.
It was four pages long, singlespaced okay I wrote it on an
airplane.
He wrote back, so this is hisfirst statement.
You're the first person who'sever called me an alpha male,
with or without a racialadjective, or a wham, as you put
it.
I won't take offense, because Ido understand and share your
(08:43):
frustration.
You and I have never discussedthese issues.
It is apparent that you do notknow who I am and really have no
idea how I feel about theseissues, and you have no idea
what I've done to promote womenand minorities within and
without AHA.
I would suggest that you askaround before you make
assumptions about my and actions, or you can ask me directly
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
(09:04):
It was, it was, it was um, um,yeah.
So I, of course, responded.
I never don't respond.
Mo Hamoudi (09:21):
Yeah, I know that.
Karen Koehler (09:22):
I always want to have the last word.
Mo Hamoudi (09:23):
Yes, you do respond .
Karen Koehler (09:25):
Yeah, I know that I always want to have the
last word.
Yes, you do.
And basically, again, it's athree-paragraph, but I just want
to read a little bit.
I'm not within the inner groupof AAJM and I'm not vested in
having to be delicate with myconcern like so many others who
wish more could be done, perhaps, who even quietly try to get
things done, but who run intoinstitutional roadblocks.
(09:45):
I am that focus groupparticipant who has a different
perspective than you do, forwhatever reason, the one you may
not want to hear but need tohear in order to get it right.
I am rattling the cages andhoping you will see, beyond the
initial feeling of beingpersonally tapped, to my true
purpose of promoting radicalinternal examination and
proactive correction of aaj'sdiversity problem.
(10:06):
Okay, I mean, this continues on, but what do you want to talk
about?
I'm going back to aaj.
A lot of people don't like mebecause this is how I am a lot
of people at aaj don't like you.
Certain people, or justgenerally speaking people, don't
like you, certain people at AAJdon't like me.
Mo Hamoudi (10:27):
That's their problem.
Karen Koehler (10:28):
Okay.
Mo Hamoudi (10:32):
What do you want to talk about?
Karen Koehler (10:33):
I want to talk about when you are in an
institution.
Mo Hamoudi (10:35):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (10:36):
And you want there to be change.
Yeah, there's a politic way togo about it.
Mo Hamoudi (10:40):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (10:41):
And then there's the non-politic way, mike, to
go about it, yes, and thenthere's the non-politic way,
mike.
Which way did I choose?
Mo Hamoudi (10:47):
The non-politic way .
I just think that that wasactually politic.
Karen Koehler (10:52):
The reason.
Mike Todd (10:53):
Well, there's different very there's different
degrees of politic.
Yes, she's using a politicaltactic which is attacking by the
front.
Karen Koehler (11:02):
As opposed to as opposed to.
Mike Todd (11:04):
As opposed, most politics come from the back.
Oh, that's right.
Okay, they try to like sneak inand mix it up within the
institution itself, where Karenwent frontally and just slammed
through the front door.
Mo Hamoudi (11:21):
Attila the Hun, yes , Not Sun Tzu Attila theahan.
Yes, not Sun Tzu Atilla Dahan,yes.
Mike Todd (11:27):
And that works sometimes, but it also like in
this instance, I feel, at leastfrom what you read he just went
with the stock answer of I do somuch.
You don't even know what I'mdoing.
And how could you accuse me ofbeing like this when I'm not
like this at all?
You can talk to all of myfemale friends and they will
(11:49):
tell you that I am a great.
I have lots of, I have lots offriends that are of minority
groups and I've promoted two orthree of them throughout my
entire career.
I mean, that's what they'resaying, that's how they, that's
how those people talk.
Karen Koehler (12:01):
So what happened was and I lost a friend because
of this, because she was alsoin the circle of presidents and
she basically went to them andsaid that she didn't, that I
didn't speak for her, and youknow that she was embarrassed or
apologized for my behavior, andI told her.
She stabbed me in the back andI just cut her for my life.
Um, so so, but so this was in2008.
(12:26):
Okay, I had no power within aaj.
I.
I had had no desire to go, asyou can tell, up through the
ranks to become an officer inaaj.
There's, it's very political.
I'm not, I think, like you know, united states political.
That's not me.
It has a lot of requirements.
(12:47):
They are more politician um,just all not me, and so I had
nothing to lose, but it wasinteresting to watch what
happened.
So, after that happened, there'ssome things that happened that
I'm not going to go into becauseit's a long story, but if you
(13:09):
go back about four or five yearsago, I was in a group one of
the most and I think I mighthave talked about this once one
of the most.
They have these litigationgroups which are very powerful
and very, very good, like if youwant to go to a particular area
of law.
They have these groups andthese groups can become powerful
(13:33):
and I was in a very powerfulone and it was so dysfunctional.
There were like three women inthe inner circle of this
executive litigation committeewhich I had been brought into,
and all these New York, texas,california, whams sorry, yeah,
(13:56):
like there was no minorities inthere, it was all male and then
three women, maybe four, threeor four women, um total of out
of like 30 and the executive,because once you were in the
executive litigation group, youwere never out of it.
So it was, it was, it was anyway.
They were promoting a wholenother slate of dudes and I did
(14:20):
something similar to this.
I called him out and I said I'mdone, I, I, I have no tolerance
of of this and I left thatgroup and that's what I've done
ever since is I'm just like, I'mjust, I'm just done with it,
like I don't care enough anymore.
I cared more than in 2009, butlet me tell you what happened
(14:40):
between those two events 2009and 2000, let's say 22 maybe I
became a board member of aajbecause someone needed to do it
from our state and I went and Iwas asked to do it.
And that group, that leadershipgroup within aaj, circled their
(15:03):
wagons and contacted leadership, executive, leadership of
trialers in Washington State andtold me that they backed.
They didn't back me, theybacked my archenemy who I was no
longer talking, the one thatwas who was behind them when you
(15:25):
?
did the first letter.
Which they're prohibited fromever interfering in state
organizations, but they all didit.
Mo Hamoudi (15:34):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (15:35):
And this is why.
So, when I go to AAJ, I havemixed feelings.
There's the people I like, andthen there's the people I don't
like things.
There's the people I like, andthen there's the people I don't
like.
Mike Todd (15:47):
So my question would be why do you participate at all
?
Karen Koehler (15:57):
Good point, right, because they are so
valuable.
Like I donate a lot of money tothem because their lobbyists
are bar none, probably some ofthe greatest ones I've ever
known.
Because how does a small littleorganization go up against big
pharma, big business, biginsurance and prevent tort
reform on a national level?
It's because of organizationslike AAJ, which are few and far
(16:17):
between, so that's a huge reason.
Reason and the second one isbecause for all of the people
that I don't like, there's maybenot as many that I do really
really like, and I think that'sthe lesson of life in general.
Like, no matter where you are,when you're in a group, even in
(16:40):
an office, you're never gonna bebuddies with everyone.
But that doesn't mean that youdon't benefit from it.
So I have just really goodfriends that I like to see.
I don't learn as much as I usedto because I'm one of the older
people that even go to theseorganizations now, but I also am
(17:02):
very interested in what's new.
I'm a curious mind and I reallylove some of the people.
Mike Todd (17:10):
So I guess my question would be was your
original letter effective inchange?
Karen Koehler (17:17):
So what happened was, after that happened, which
I didn't go into, I was amember of the Minority Caucus
and we decided to ask them toimplement a diversity mission
statement, a diversity plan forthe organization.
(17:42):
The organization had not had oneand trial lawyers here in
Washington State had had one forover 10 years.
So we just took that one, edand I worked on it and re-edited
it, but we were met with a lotof opposition, shocker.
So we've presented it andwalked away from it, and then
(18:04):
they all, so they did not takeit and adopt it.
What they did is they startedfrom scratch?
Maybe they took it and adopt it.
What they did is they startedfrom scratch.
Maybe they took a peek at it,but they did implement a
diversity plan within theorganization and the
organization has gotten better,although there's examples, like
I just told you, of the groupthat I just left a couple years
(18:24):
ago, where it was same old, sameold.
So they try, but and now, now Idon't even know if they would
even try, because can we evenhave diversity anymore?
Mike Todd (18:38):
no yeah I'll say it we can't right now, in this
political environment.
Karen Koehler (18:43):
We've got major us companies who are bowing to
the king so when I, when Ihuffed and puffed and left that
other if I'm going to go out,I'm going to go out with a bang
and so I wrote and did blogs andall that stuff when I left that
executive litigation group Idon't want to say they got in
trouble, but they got watchedthey got a staff person assigned
(19:07):
to go there they had to make arule change.
Um, I don't know how muchthey've changed since then,
Cause I don't go back there, butmy little have some puffs, have
always got some kind ofreaction.
That's led to something elseand that's, I guess, the my
point of my story today.
(19:28):
I could go sit there and becomepart of the process and, you
know, follow all the rules andbe polite and just gently guide
people.
But that's not my way.
My way, as was described byGerhard Letzing, executive
director of the Washington StateTrial Lawyers Association for
(19:49):
30 years, was Karen Thoreau'sbombs, and you better just hope
she doesn't throw them your way.
But they're not because of justmy own, for my own personal
satisfaction, although sometimesthey kind of are, because I
like to see what happens.
But I don't think that you canalways make change peacefully, I
(20:11):
don't.
I think that you a lot of timeshave to just throw the bomb.
The question is what is yourmotivation?
My motivation was like let'smake this world a better place.
Let's not have three out of 14speakers be non-white male men
(20:32):
even if they are effective atlobbying in the political
environment yeah, I don't.
I mean that's the whole point mo.
You've been very quiet well,I'm listening mo.
So Mo is very politic and hedoesn't throw bombs.
Mo Hamoudi (20:50):
That's not necessarily true.
Mike Todd (20:53):
He throws them a lot more sneakily than he would.
Karen Koehler (20:56):
What bombs have you thrown?
Not that it's a good thing, mo,you don't have to be.
Mo Hamoudi (21:02):
It's not like it's a good thing or a bad thing, but
I guess I don't view the emailthat you wrote a bomb.
I just view your email as avery vulnerable and transparent
call out to do something correct.
That was what you perceived tobe incorrect.
Karen Koehler (21:18):
I call them whams.
I call the current president awham.
Mo Hamoudi (21:22):
By the way, I don't think alpha male is White.
Alpha male Okay, the white, Iget it, but like I don't know
what, would you call me a?
Karen Koehler (21:28):
brown alpha male .
I didn't come up with that, bythe way.
Mo Hamoudi (21:31):
I didn't come up with that, someone else did, and
I thought, yeah, that's a goodway to put it, but if you called
me an alpha male, I'd be likethank you for the compliment,
but I don't know why that guytook the email the way he did.
He wasn't just the AmericanAssociation for Justice.
(21:52):
Whoever he is, it was clear tome that he got very defensive
for the wrong reasons and he hadan opportunity to be like hey,
karen, thanks for pointing thatout.
I just looked at the—.
Karen Koehler (21:58):
Okay, but you've changed the subject.
Mo Hamoudi (21:59):
What do you want to know?
Karen Koehler (22:00):
You were supposed to tell us if you've
ever thrown a bomb.
I can't believe that you have.
You might have thought of thebombs you can throw.
Mo Hamoudi (22:07):
No, I have thrown bombs.
I.
You might have thought of thebombs you can throw.
No, I have thrown bombs I.
Just can't, right now, in themiddle of the podcast, remember
precise examples he hasn't.
Karen Koehler (22:14):
I'm telling you, I'm going to call you out on it
.
Mo Hamoudi (22:17):
I have, I just I cannot recall.
Karen Koehler (22:20):
I'm not talking about when you were five,
laughing, laughing, laughing inan organization.
I mean, Mike, have you everdone anything like that?
It does take a certain level of.
Mike Todd (22:37):
I'm more, I will say I am more backroom than I am.
Frontal assault.
Yeah, when it comes topolitical situations and that's
because I'm usually coming, Imean, you know like I'm not
anyone of importance in most ofthose situations.
So you, like I would say, whenyou wrote that letter, you did
(23:03):
it knowing that you had aposition where you could make
that statement and still getaway with it, where borderline,
I mean if one of the newattorneys at our firm did that
in 2008 right what would happen?
right, they probably wouldn'thave gotten a response at all at
(23:24):
all.
It would have been ignored yeahentirely, and that's why those
you know, that's why people inpositions of power are able to
get away with stuff like that,because they are allowed to
ignore the rank and file if theywant to.
That's you know, whereas youcame from someone who you were,
(23:51):
someone who had been inpositions that were in power at
a state level, so they had torespond to you.
If they didn't, it would havebeen worse for them.
Karen Koehler (23:58):
It's true.
Mike Todd (23:59):
And and I mean I hate to point this at both of you,
but you guys are all attorneys,so you have the fear of a legal
fight in situations like that,like if they dismissed you and
ignored it and continued thething, then you would have had
the possibility of bringing somesort of litigation against them
(24:21):
.
You know, yeah, okay, not forsure, but at some point it's
possible.
Karen Koehler (24:27):
Because Moe's been feverishly thinking about a
bomb.
Mo Hamoudi (24:33):
Okay, I was on a DEI committee and I threw a bomb
.
Karen Koehler (24:36):
Wait where.
Mo Hamoudi (24:38):
At my former job at the Federal Public Defender.
Karen Koehler (24:41):
What did you throw?
Mo Hamoudi (24:42):
I taught that the DEI initiative was misplaced, a
drain.
It was self-involved,self-indulgent.
It was basically an opportunityfor people to, in a silo,
complain about personal stuffand nonsense, and the email I
(25:07):
sent was that the mission ofthis institution is to help
people who are poor, who can'taccess the courts, and none of
our clients, who are right nowlocked up at the federal
detention center, care a lickabout diversity, equity,
inclusion.
They want to know how the hellare we going to help them, and
(25:27):
so sometimes I think thesediversity initiatives, in my
view, become something that istotally untethered from mission.
So that's when I threw a bomband it caused quite a bit of
ruckus, because I'm a diverseperson, I come from a diverse
(25:50):
background.
Karen Koehler (25:50):
You weren't saying that you believe that
there should not be any DEIA.
You're saying that you need tohave a good mission.
Mo Hamoudi (26:01):
No, I was saying that and I was making a larger
observation, that everybody gotcaught up with the dei issues in
2019, 2020.
Um, with the black lives mattermovement, it just things
started to like move quite in aparticular direction and then
(26:21):
what I started to realize waslike it's just moving for its
own sake and and and it's notreally doing anything to advance
a particular institution'smission, in my view, like our
mission, I don't know, you know,and then I started to see
examples of it in otherorganizations and I was like
(26:44):
this has become a distraction.
It's just like to talk fortalk's sake.
So I don't disagree with theconcept of diversity, equity and
inclusion.
I think that, like, where Istarted to throw bombs was that
I started to be a counterpointto the movement in very
particularized circumstances.
Karen Koehler (27:01):
Yeah, because I just want to like grab you by
the throat right now, likebecause you're a little bit
vague, and so I'm thinking likewho are you?
Mo Hamoudi (27:09):
What do you mean?
Who am I?
Are you?
Karen Koehler (27:10):
like?
Are you like one of DonaldTrump's henchmen that are trying
to get rid of all DEIA programs?
Mo Hamoudi (27:16):
No, absolutely not, Absolutely not.
I just think that, likesometimes, organizations
implement DEI for the purpose ofpeople in the organization to
feel good about themselves.
They have really nothing to doabout what the core problem with
issues related to diversity,equity and inclusion are and
(27:37):
they're not really serious aboutconfronting it, but they put on
the—.
Mike Todd (27:41):
That's what I would go with.
This is that it's not justthat— it's that they're
implementing a policy for thevisual.
Yes, it's not an actual.
They don't have the purpose ofit doing anything.
It's just there to say thatthey have it.
Mo Hamoudi (27:58):
Yes, and so when you go start to, the only way
you know this is if you get intoan organization's committee and
you start to hear people talkand then you say, what are you
guys talking about?
Like this is all a waste oftime, and so you know, I get the
sense that you know.
Like I mean, aaj has theminority caucus.
(28:20):
I'm looking at it, I want to govisit it.
Karen Koehler (28:22):
AAJ has made a lot of strides since 2009.
Mo Hamoudi (28:25):
But I don't know what the minority caucus is
really doing.
I'm going to go this year.
I'm going to go spend some time.
Our friend Ed Moore is going tocome in and vouch for me.
This is Mo.
I know him.
Karen Koehler (28:34):
He's a guy, they're going to have listened
to this podcast and they're notgoing to let you in.
Exactly Well why not?
Because you said you're againstthe EIA.
Mo Hamoudi (28:42):
That's not what I said.
Mike did.
I say I'm against the.
Mike Todd (28:45):
No, you said you were against the policy that they
had at the time at the placethat you were.
Mo Hamoudi (28:48):
Thank you, look at you, look at what you do.
Mike Todd (28:51):
I know she's like a shark.
Mo Hamoudi (28:54):
She's a shark, chummed water.
She's like.
Karen Koehler (28:59):
I do it all the time He'll call me.
He'll be kind of placid.
I'm like I just don't want totalk to anymore.
You're really boring.
He's like what I said I'm hereto be entertained, like I need
some stuff, okay.
Mo Hamoudi (29:14):
Definitely entertaining, by the way, I mean
.
But really, why do you thinkthere's been a huge political
shift?
Because the DEI, the way it wasimplemented, in many ways was
unattractive to people, becauseit wasn't about diversity issues
.
It was about people feelingself-important, like I'm, the
leader of diversity, equity andinclusion.
Karen Koehler (29:35):
Okay, you're being overly broad, Good.
Mike Todd (29:39):
I would say that it goes even further in that the
people that Karen is talkingabout who you know 20— years ago
, were the heads of all of thoseboards.
They never wanted DEI to beginwith.
So when you fast forward towhen you're talking about, then
(30:04):
they have the conservativebacklash that we have right now.
I think a lot of people whoprobably implemented things at
their companies were like I justdid this because we had to.
Like I said, yeah.
And now they're like great, wedon't have to do it anymore.
It was never about what Karenwas talking about when she wrote
that letter the first time,which is let's have some
(30:25):
positive change, let's get adifferent perspective here,
which we've established overthese podcasts.
It's one of the things that youhave and one of the things that
Karen has.
But a fucking 70-year-old whitedude who's been sitting on the
top of a board forever.
He doesn't have any idea.
He's never needed any diversity.
(30:48):
He's never needed any of thatstuff.
But, mike, you're absolutelyright.
Mo Hamoudi (30:53):
Oh, I know I am, You're absolutely right, yeah,
the other thing is is that youdon't need a DEI initiative.
Karen Koehler (31:01):
By the way, one of the reasons I've always
believed that there has beenthis huge issue, including an
attorney organization where Imean, like I just told you, the
best thing about this is itspolitical program, its mission
it's helping other people youwould and you would think that
(31:23):
that's the kind of change thatwe're talking about right now
they should be leading thechange
yeah look at our entire industryas playing a personal injury.
It is heavy white male at thetop, Heavy, heavy, heavy, so
heavy.
I mean globally.
You know it's still very, verynot diverse, but when you look
(31:44):
at who's at the top of theprofession, it is enormously.
Mo Hamoudi (31:49):
Old white dudes, it's so true, and they're good
looking.
Karen Koehler (31:55):
And they have really good skin.
But they don't want to give up.
Mike Todd (32:01):
I'm laughing because you said all the people at AAJ
look beautiful.
Mo Hamoudi (32:04):
They're like the most good looking people.
Well, they can afford it, Imean they are beautiful and
fantastic looking.
Karen Koehler (32:11):
Just think about it.
There is so much money andpower involved in making the
decision to give equalopportunity to other people that
are not in that white maleprivilege circle it is why would
you voluntarily give it up?
Mike Todd (32:32):
You wouldn't.
Well, I mean, that's what'slike I said.
I feel like that is the one ofthe big things about today's
political environment is.
I see all these people sayingthat they don't like the changes
that are happening in thiscountry.
Yet they continue to let themhappen, and I guarantee it's
because of what?
The same kind of thing that mydad told me one of the times
(32:54):
that he was voting for somebodythat I didn't agree with.
It's because, in the end, it'sall about money.
That's what they want, and ifthey can convince you that the
money is going to keep flowingtowards you, people vote for it,
no matter what they believe.
Karen Koehler (33:08):
There are people in AAJ that they're all whams
that just go around, and theyare.
They want to be the chair ofevery single section.
They're this collect them likeyou know.
But yeah, put putting your beltbuckle.
You look at their.
Mike Todd (33:23):
CV.
They've got a list it's just amile long.
Karen Koehler (33:26):
I'm the head of trucking.
I'm the head of brain injury.
I'm the head of medicalnegligence.
I'm the head of trucking.
I'm the head of brain injury.
I'm the head of medicalnegligence.
I'm the head of motor vehicles.
I'm the head.
Yeah, they and they just go andthere's nothing to stop it.
That's an organizational failure, because that personality type
which is gonna face it, anaggressive person yeah who
(33:48):
happens to typically be whitemale, will get ahead because
they're so freaking aggressivethey're going to, and if you
don't have institutionalsafeguards, they're just going
to go around and take advantageof every single opportunity.
It's like the day that I becamethe chair of it, I got all
these emails, all from whamssaying that they wanted to be on
(34:17):
the program a year it would belike in august of the next year
to speak.
I was like this is how it goes,like you don't even have time
to go and see who else wants tospeak, that it's just there.
These same people that are theheads of everything are speaking
at everything because they wantall the referrals they want.
(34:38):
You know, it's market shareMoney money money, money.
But if an institution doesn'thave safeguards, that's what
happens.
Mo Hamoudi (34:49):
Well, I mean, that's the institution, that's
the way it's designed.
Karen Koehler (34:54):
All of these institutions are designed by the
patriarchy.
Mo Hamoudi (34:57):
But I can tell you something.
Karen Koehler (34:58):
I can tell you that they were all designed by
men, just like this country.
Mo Hamoudi (35:01):
But I can tell you that a lot of these
organizations are not attractive.
Karen Koehler (35:06):
Mike is just dying over there.
Mike Todd (35:07):
Here's Karen standing against the tide of history.
Karen Koehler (35:10):
It's true.
Mo Hamoudi (35:12):
Well, okay, but that's history, that's ground
truth.
Karen Koehler (35:15):
We're still living in history.
Why isn't it changing, asAlicia used to tell me and I was
like hey, good point.
Why is there a thing calledprecedent?
Why do we have to rely onprecedent?
That's a whole other subject.
Why is it so hallowed?
Mike Todd (35:29):
Yeah, I think we can do a whole nother episode on
that one.
Karen Koehler (35:31):
Look where it came from.
What the heck we're going toconstruct.
Mike Todd (35:36):
Okay, mo.
What were you going to say?
Okay, go ahead.
Karen Koehler (35:39):
You're just getting me going.
Mike Todd (35:41):
I think what.
Mo Hamoudi (35:42):
I was going to say is that I'll tell you that the
generational lawyers that arecoming up think this is like
that.
You know like think this islike that, you know, like yeah,
you know, like they're, likethey think it's, they think it's
like, oh, like it's 1990s, like, oh, go to your little
organization.
And like I can tell you rightnow, the lawyers are like,
(36:02):
whatever these organizations aregoing to become eventually
irrelevant, and the way that lawis being practiced, the way
that lawyers are organizingaround issues and matters are
outside of these organizations.
So this is why I told Mike Iwas like this is a place where
you go watch all the goodlooking people yeah.
Karen Koehler (36:21):
But it's sad because, like I said, their
lobbying efforts are crucial.
Mo Hamoudi (36:26):
I think they'll just change.
I think the lobbying effortsare going to change.
Mike Todd (36:29):
I was going to say there needs to be new
organizations is the problem.
You need to start new ones fromthe ground up, which it's not
going to be easy.
Karen Koehler (36:37):
AJ, I still love you.
Don't listen to this.
Even though I'm critical of it,I still love it.
Mo Hamoudi (36:46):
Nobody from AJ has reached out to me affirmatively
and said oh my goodness, welcometo the practice.
Karen Koehler (36:52):
No, they will never.
It's too big.
Mo Hamoudi (36:54):
Okay, fine.
Karen Koehler (36:56):
Did WSAJ reach out to you?
Mo Hamoudi (36:59):
No, nobody from WSAJ.
Oh wait, Elizabeth Hanleyreached out to me and asked me
for help.
That's different.
Mike Todd (37:06):
That's different.
That's not saying hey, welcome.
Mo Hamoudi (37:08):
No, but she didn't.
Karen Koehler (37:12):
You're making this up, mo.
When you first became aplaintiff lawyer, did anybody
contact you from anyorganization?
No okay, you could have saidthat faster.
You didn't even have to thinkabout that.
Mo Hamoudi (37:21):
That was just like no no, but maybe they just
didn't know who the hell I wasno, it doesn't, who cares?
Mike Todd (37:26):
they saw that you were hired by strip matter and,
trust me, they knew who stripmatter is is because Karen bugs
them all the time.
That's right, and they knew whoit was before, because we had a
couple whams here too, yeah.
Karen Koehler (37:40):
All right.
Well, this is you know.
Here we go.
Mo Hamoudi (37:44):
We're off to see the AAJs, and I can't believe.
You think I'm a Trump supporter.
Mike Todd (37:53):
Well, it came out that way.
No, I didn't say that.
Karen Koehler (37:55):
I mean come on, I did.
Mike Todd (37:57):
She did say that we're going to be the best.
Mo Hamoudi (38:00):
Number one, we're going to be the best.
It's huge, it's huge.
Karen Koehler (38:06):
But here's my final part.
So I know they don't like me.
The people that don't like me,the people that don't like me,
don't like me, and they probablyknow that I don't like them,
but this is what I do at AHA.
So good to see you.
How are you Exactly?
And thank God.
They have to wear name tagsbecause all my arms look the
(38:28):
same to me.
Now I'm pretty distinctivelooking.
They know what I look like, butI literally can't tell one
apart from the other.
Mike Todd (38:35):
I can't believe.
You just said that they alllook the same to me.
Karen Koehler (38:37):
I can't help it.
It's true.
Mo Hamoudi (38:39):
And I don't think it's bad being an alpha male.
Karen Koehler (38:43):
Alpha male has nothing to do with it.
Mike Todd (38:44):
Whams, I said, all right, just saying Alpha male's
the second half of wham.
Mo Hamoudi (38:50):
It's the second half of wham.
Like I said, I don't even knowwhere I came up with that.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with being an alpha male.
Karen Koehler (38:56):
Okay, we're going to have to do the alpha.
We'll do the alpha male thenext time.
Mo Hamoudi (38:59):
Yes, exactly.
Karen Koehler (39:00):
In the defense of the alpha male.
Mo Hamoudi (39:01):
I want an episode dedicated to the alpha male.
Karen Koehler (39:06):
Thank you, okay, that's it.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!