June 4, 2025 • 21 mins
Episode 20: Karen Koehler on Leadership Challenges in Managing a Law Firm
Can being too humble hold you back?
Karen opens up about her leadership style, one that prioritizes team praise over personal recognition, and the unintended downside of deflecting credit. Mo and Mike delve into how humility, when taken to an extreme, can blur the lines between authority and respect.
Together, they explore the tension between wanting respect but rejecting praise, how gender shapes perceptions of leadership, and why decisiveness is often mistaken for arrogance.
Mo shares a powerful take on Karen’s legal mastery, especially her ability to pace a case like a symphony, and reminds us why great leaders must sometimes own their power.
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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Koehler (00:02):
Okay, so I have an interesting thought.
Mo Hamoudi (00:07):
What is the thought?
Karen Koehler (00:08):
It's about leadership and, as you know, I
am the leader of the law firm.
Mo Hamoudi (00:13):
You are.
I didn't know that In certainways.
Well, why don't you illuminateus, oh great leader?
Karen Koehler (00:19):
But I want to talk about some of my
deficiencies with respect, in adifferent way than we have
before, Because, I mean, I'mopen to talking about
deficiencies as a leader.
Okay, so my philosophy startedin being a leader, obviously a
(00:39):
very long time ago, when I usedto take care of my brothers and
sisters.
Right, that was involuntaryleadership, but my first
experience of having to be aleader was when I was president
of trial lawyers, and what Ilearned and the way that I
learned isn't by people tellingme, it's by observation and kind
(01:02):
of seeing what works anddoesn't work.
You know, that kind of thing.
And what I started to see andit actually, though I think at
the time so the executivedirector was Gerhard Letzing and
what I started to see was thatwhat didn't work with leadership
was someone that just toldpeople what to do or that
(01:24):
threatened people.
If you don't do this, then thisis going to happen.
Mo Hamoudi (01:29):
Yeah, that's dictatorship.
Karen Koehler (01:31):
And what I learned was that the best way to
be a leader was to be verypositive and to encourage people
and also to acknowledge peopleand et cetera.
However, and I still believethat, however and this is where
I this is one of those it's notexactly a therapy session, but I
(01:54):
do need your input.
As a result of that philosophy,which I've brought over to the
office, I think that there havebeen some unintended
consequences that are negative.
What I think?
There's two of them.
Mo Hamoudi (02:06):
What are they?
Karen Koehler (02:07):
Well, the one of them is, for example, when I
share a good result, I make sureto make sure that everybody
that was working on it, from meon down, feels equally important
.
Okay, me on down feels equallyimportant.
(02:29):
Okay, and I did that recentlyand was criticized for doing
that by two of my partnersbecause they said you need to be
able to accept that the otherteam members, without you, would
have been able to do this.
Team members without you wouldhave been able to do this, but
(02:52):
it's your additional presence,your work, your input that made
something extraordinary.
And I had to get back and becomfortable even thinking that
that was true.
So that's issue.
Number one is, and I've alwaysbeen very bad at being able to
accept compliment, and part ofthis is because my parents were
super critical my mother inparticular, like I used to play
piano and she never saidanything nice about it, other
(03:16):
than when I was doing a concertand then everyone.
She would tell everyone oh howgreat, great, great, great.
It was Same.
She never could give acompliment to my face.
It was other people, and I wasalways embarrassed by that.
I just didn't like it and so Icarried that into.
I've always had that way.
Like you can't compliment me.
Although I will evade, I willchange a subject.
(03:36):
I will not accept it can I askhim really?
Mike Todd (03:39):
quick yeah did she also compliment other people for
their accomplishments.
Karen Koehler (03:47):
No.
Mike Todd (03:47):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (03:49):
Other than herself.
Yeah, Well, I figured that very, you know, and and so that that
was issue number one and thenissue number two is because of
that.
I don't know if people realizehow self-effacing I am.
I am very self-effacing, Ithink.
(04:10):
I don't know if people justtake it for granted.
Mo Hamoudi (04:12):
What do you mean?
Karen Koehler (04:13):
That's what I mean.
I cannot accept a compliment Iwon't.
As a result of that.
There has been times when I'vethought that you know.
One thing for me that's a bigdeal is respect.
I need people to respect,Respect me.
I've always needed that.
(04:34):
Like I want to be respected butnot complimented.
Is that a weird thing?
Like in my jobs, I want to beacknowledged for what I've done.
I don't want to hear someplatitude of you.
Know, you're so wonderful.
That means nothing to me.
I want this.
It's a very strainedrelationship between the two of
(04:56):
them that exists and most peopledon't know this.
You just see it as you know,and I think, also because I'm so
willing to just thank everybodyand be very self-effacing, that
it could backfire upon me andundermine people's understanding
(05:17):
of what I'm bringing to theequation, because I'm so quick
to thank others and not takecredit for myself.
Mo Hamoudi (05:26):
Wow, okay One.
I do know that about you.
I do know that you do not knowhow to take compliments, because
when I've tried to give youaffirmations, what you will do
is use what I call segue wordsand shift the conversation to
something else.
Karen Koehler (05:42):
Correct.
Mo Hamoudi (05:43):
And you've done that to me repeatedly Now, now
that's, that's something alittle bit different than what
you're talking about isleadership, and what it means to
be a leader.
Karen Koehler (05:51):
I think it affects my leadership.
Mo Hamoudi (05:54):
I give you that.
Karen Koehler (05:54):
And the good thing, right, the good thing is
that you have a leader thatdoesn't hog all.
I mean people would besurprised I do not hog all the
attention.
Those people that think I hogall the attention I don't.
Mo Hamoudi (06:13):
But somehow I don't think it's always a good thing.
I don't know about if it's agood thing or a bad thing, karen
, but I think that actions speaklouder than words.
Sometimes you don't need to sayanything, and I'm a big
believer in this.
If you don't know my value, Iam not going to tell you my
value.
If you are not curious to knowmy value, then I am not
interested in having you in mysphere, in my sphere of what I
(06:36):
believe to be people that areimportant to me.
Karen Koehler (06:39):
But how are you at taking compliments?
Mo Hamoudi (06:41):
I'm not, you know.
Affirmations from the peoplewho are in my sphere mean a
great deal to me.
Yeah, you like them, I likethem.
You're the opposite to me.
Yeah, you like them, I likethem.
You're the opposite of me.
Karen Koehler (06:50):
Yeah, I like them, like if I give you an
affirmation, you are like glowypuppy.
Mo Hamoudi (06:53):
Yes, he's like glowy puppy.
Karen Koehler (06:57):
Yes, he's like so happy.
Mo Hamoudi (06:58):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Karen Koehler (07:00):
Versus me.
I'm like kick the dog.
I'm like don't.
Mo Hamoudi (07:11):
Get away like that.
Don't get away.
But if you're not accepting theaffirmation, is it impacting
your ability to lead?
Karen Koehler (07:15):
Is that what you're saying?
I don't know, and it's not thatI just don't accept it.
I also want to hear it, but Idon't accept it.
It's a very complicated.
I want to hear it Like youshould give me an affirmation,
but I may outwardly reject it.
Does this make sense, mike?
Mike Todd (07:30):
Oh yeah, well, I'm exactly like that.
I don't like to takecompliments at all.
Karen Koehler (07:33):
But you want them.
Mike Todd (07:34):
Well, of course, I think everybody wants them, no
matter what they say but youwant them, but you don't take
them.
Well, no because I feel likeit's the same for me.
I had a father who didn'tcompliment me, but he also would
spend a lot of time talkingabout other you know, like his
other.
Oh, so-and-so's son, they didthis, or?
(07:57):
that comparison which made mefeel even smaller.
But the other part for me is Ialways like to be part of a team
, which is interesting, becauseI don't like to be around people
that much either.
So, just in the same way thatyou said that you want the
(08:18):
compliments but you don't wantthem, I want to be part of a
team but I don't want to bearound any of the team.
People are complicated many ofthe team people are complicated,
but it's for me, it's.
Being part of a team means thatyou don't take the compliment
that you, that you don't needthe compliment because everyone
(08:39):
needs the compliment togetheryeah I see this is where the
leadership part comes in.
Karen Koehler (08:45):
So I believe that, but I think that sometimes
even in my own firm, that I'mnot respected enough.
Mike Todd (08:57):
Well, I think that that's where some of the needing
the compliments come in yeah.
Because you recognize when youdon't get it as less worth
Recognize, when you don't get itas less worth.
Karen Koehler (09:08):
And because maybe not everybody is in the
inner circle of people, that Iknow exactly where they are and
I have a very strongrelationship with them.
This is a big firm.
I have acquaintances in the lawfirm and I have closer people
to me in the law firm.
Mo Hamoudi (09:27):
So interesting of people to me in the law firm so
interesting.
Well, I think that the questionof respect and acknowledging
your worth and complimenting you, and leadership are all tied
together.
Karen Koehler (09:41):
I know.
This is why I raised it In aweird way.
Mo Hamoudi (09:44):
Well, I think that you can.
As a leader, sometimes you haveto demand respect, and there
are ways in which you can demandrespect as a leader.
Karen Koehler (09:56):
But you see, like that's also an anathema,
right, like that's just likesaying that you don't want to
have someone give you acompliment if you have to ask
for it.
Mo Hamoudi (10:07):
Respect and asking for a compliment, I think, are
distinct things.
Karen Koehler (10:10):
Okay, good, because I really I ugh.
Mike Todd (10:14):
Yeah, respect is bigger than a compliment.
Yes, respect is the complimentrealized always.
Yes, so that, and that's what Iwant too.
I mean, that's where I wouldsay I am.
I don't need people tocompliment me for things.
I need to know that they knowthat I'm going to do that every
(10:37):
time, that that's what's goingto happen, so that they want me
there because they know thatthat's going to happen.
Karen Koehler (10:44):
That's a good point.
Mo Hamoudi (10:46):
And the other thing is communicating that out, karen
is, I think.
Karen Koehler (10:55):
But I think that there's also a line between in
law firms and in many corporatestructures, between respect and
fear, because my position, likeI think that there are probably
some people, especially likenewer lawyers, that would fear
me versus meeting me, versusrespecting me.
Mo Hamoudi (11:11):
But that's your responsibility.
I know and how you developrelationship as a leader with
the people you lead.
I think leadership is actuallynot that difficult If you buy
into the principle of the buckstops with me, I am accountable.
If I'm the leader, I amaccountable.
(11:31):
If the culture there'ssomething going on, I take
responsibility for that and Iwill lead and then if somebody
is not respecting my leadershipthen they can't be part of the
culture.
I think it's kind of verystraightforward and I think that
the other stuff, like for me,when I'm in leadership positions
in sports or in other settings,that I'm in leadership in
(11:53):
organizations that's the mindsetI bring in.
Karen Koehler (11:55):
You're a dude.
Mo Hamoudi (11:58):
I thought we're not supposed to use the word anymore
.
Karen Koehler (12:01):
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
Mo Hamoudi (12:03):
I didn't use the word.
Karen Koehler (12:05):
Mike, I did not say it's on film, it's on film.
Oh, my goodness, you're a guyand I'm not, and it's different.
Mike Todd (12:13):
Okay, it's only a little different, because I
would say that a certain amountof fear from subordinates is
needed, because that'sacknowledging the power that the
leader has.
But what I would consider agood leader is someone who has
that but doesn't utilize itexcept in the situations where
(12:38):
it's needed, and never uses itagainst a subordinate.
Karen Koehler (12:41):
I don't even like the word subordinate.
Mike Todd (12:43):
Yeah, I know but I was struggling with the language
.
Mo Hamoudi (12:47):
Okay, it's the difference between a leader and
those that are led.
There is a difference.
There are people that are beingled and there is a reason why
they're not leaders because theyare not either ready or want to
or fit to be leaders, andthat's just the way the world is
organized.
And so you have to respecthierarchy, you have to respect
(13:11):
it, you have to acknowledge itfrom the bottom up, and I just
think that if there is norespect within hierarchy, then
to me it's like that's a weakteam.
That's a weak team.
You are not going to win, thatculture is not going to compete
right, and and so to me, that iscritical, critical and and and.
(13:35):
So you know, I'm not going totell you how to lead, karen, you
know exactly how to lead, and Idisagree with the dude thing,
because I think, like youtranscend dude, you know, or
whatever thing that you justbrought up, you transcend that,
and I think there's somethingelse that is hedging,
(14:02):
decisiveness.
Karen Koehler (14:05):
What, what you know, say what's on your mind.
Say it.
I can't Say it, spit it out.
Mo Hamoudi (14:19):
I think that there's a part of you that wants not to
be feared, and being decisiveis ultimately going to result in
people not only respecting youbut fearing you.
And it's about like reallygrowing into that type of
(14:39):
leadership where you're like I'mmaking a decision and I am
doing X, and people will.
It'll shake a little bit thehierarchy, It'll shake the
structure, and then people willbe like but no, but that's what
leaders do, and then they go.
I take responsibility for that.
Karen Koehler (14:58):
I mean there's different things that I've led
where I don't care.
I mean I don't care, meanyou're I don't care, I, people
better fear me.
I'm going to be the leader, I'mthe one, and you and we're
going to all, we're all in thistogether and you know.
But if you're talking about thelaw firm, I really don't you're
, it's true.
Um, I don't.
(15:18):
I don't like to wield power forthe sake of wielding power.
I don't like to wield power forthe sake of wielding power.
I don't like structures.
I've already been counseled onthis by our coaches.
We're already going through alot of change here because,
according to them, I was as farleft over in terms of lenient as
you could possibly be, becauseI believe in the power of
(15:38):
self-governance.
Mo Hamoudi (15:42):
But that's an illusion.
Karen Koehler (15:43):
I know this now.
Okay, now you know this.
That was three years ago.
Mo Hamoudi (15:47):
It's an illusion, because the image we are
projecting out to the communityis that my watch just went down,
is that?
The image that we project tothe community is that we are an
organization whose ethos is realjustice, real people.
Okay, that is our ethos and wehave a hierarchy.
(16:08):
Just look at our website.
Karen Koehler (16:11):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (16:11):
You are the managing partner.
Karen Koehler (16:12):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (16:13):
And then, so to me, what is our mission?
Who's our leader?
Lead and then we follow, andit's like everything structures
down from that there is no, I'vegotten used to it.
Karen Koehler (16:24):
Okay, all right, but it's something you know.
What is interesting about it isthat most leaders of law firms
do not have my struggles.
They're like, they're going tobe like Ruthless Mo.
I am the leader and you'regoing to all follow me and I'm
going to lead my.
Mike Todd (16:39):
Well, and that's I mean, I could say, from when I
started here.
That was more what it was likewhen I first started.
But I would say, to go back torespect of a leader, because I
think that that's important,very important.
When you have true respect forsomeone who you are working
(17:01):
underneath, when you have truerespect for someone who you are
working underneath, you'rewilling to go to them when
you're at your most vulnerableand ask for help or ask for
guidance, and a good leader willdo that without utilizing the
fear that they can wield, theybecome compassionate and helpful
(17:26):
.
Mo Hamoudi (17:27):
Some of the ones that we had before you weren't
like that Okay, and that's notnecessarily a bad leader, but
not a respected leader, but it'sa double-edged sword, and the
double-edged sword, mike, isthat I think that the gender
dynamic plays a big role in this.
Mike Todd (17:44):
Oh, I agree.
Mo Hamoudi (17:45):
I don't think that part of the respect that Karen
doesn't get is because of hergender.
Karen Koehler (17:50):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (17:50):
And sometimes it's from women of her own gender.
Oh yeah, and so I think that.
Karen Koehler (17:57):
Women of my own gender.
Wait did I say that?
Right, you did.
Gender wait, did I say that?
Right he did.
He said I don't know thatthat's right.
Women of my own gender.
Well, you know what I mean, youknow exactly what I mean.
Mo Hamoudi (18:08):
Okay, I'm just trying to stay away from dude
individuals of your own tryingto stay away from terms that are
you know, what I'm saying is isthat and so like, like I mean
I'll give you a nononspecificexample you know of.
I mean, karen is.
I've worked with some of thegreatest lawyers in this country
(18:31):
and she does not get the creditthat she deserves as being
masterful in how she practiceslaw.
Masterful, masterful in how shepractices law, masterful and
you know the fact that I'veshared this with her and
sometimes she doesn't know howto manage a compliment like that
, and I've had to be veryspecific and targeted in
(18:57):
describing what I mean bymasterful.
I said the way in which youpace a case just pace a case,
pacing cases and you pace casesfrom beginning to end is
masterful.
It's like symphony.
You know how to move a casefrom one direction to the next
and create this sense ofunpredictability for people who
(19:20):
need to manage risk, and you doit so well that you never lose
control of a case and thatdictates settlements and that
dictates verdicts, and I waslike that takes a very masterful
ability to do that and I havenever seen any other lawyer pace
a case as well as she does, andthat is why this firm right now
(19:40):
is so frickin' successful andthat is why this firm right now
is so freaking successful andthe fact that people don't
understand the value.
This is what I mean.
I go back to what I said earlier.
I was like if you don't know myvalue, I am not going to come
and beg you to find it out.
If you're not curious about whoI am and why I'm good at what I
(20:01):
do, then I'm not interested inhaving you in my sphere.
Now, that's not from thecontext of a leader, karen.
A leader has to understand whythey choose to have people in
their spheres and why they don't.
You're responsible.
You're the leader.
Mike Todd (20:19):
This is you.
You've created it.
Mo Hamoudi (20:22):
Yes, okay, so you can't be upset about it I'm not
upset about okay, all right,just want to make sure, yeah,
you know okay but it is.
Karen Koehler (20:29):
You know, nothing is ever straightforward,
because we're humans andthere's just all these weird
dichotomies and different thingsthat motivate us or unmotivate
us, or that we like or don'tlike, and they're.
It's not just people like blackand white, like people like
things that are simple andstraightforward, but when you
look at who we are, we're neverno we're not no, no, no, but I
(20:56):
just gave you a compliment andyou took it well, I thought you
received it pretty well.
I didn't, I, I didn't how wasthat compliment?
Mo Hamoudi (21:03):
it was accurate, it was genuine, it was very
accurate, and I got a lot more.
But she doesn't want to hear it.
I'll see her do stuff, mike andI go, okay, okay woof woof.
Okay, so I have an interesting thought.
Mo Hamoudi (00:07):
What is the thought?
Karen Koehler (00:08):
It's about leadership and, as you know, I
am the leader of the law firm.
Mo Hamoudi (00:13):
You are.
I didn't know that In certainways.
Well, why don't you illuminateus, oh great leader?
Karen Koehler (00:19):
But I want to talk about some of my
deficiencies with respect, in adifferent way than we have
before, Because, I mean, I'mopen to talking about
deficiencies as a leader.
Okay, so my philosophy startedin being a leader, obviously a
(00:39):
very long time ago, when I usedto take care of my brothers and
sisters.
Right, that was involuntaryleadership, but my first
experience of having to be aleader was when I was president
of trial lawyers, and what Ilearned and the way that I
learned isn't by people tellingme, it's by observation and kind
(01:02):
of seeing what works anddoesn't work.
You know, that kind of thing.
And what I started to see andit actually, though I think at
the time so the executivedirector was Gerhard Letzing and
what I started to see was thatwhat didn't work with leadership
was someone that just toldpeople what to do or that
(01:24):
threatened people.
If you don't do this, then thisis going to happen.
Mo Hamoudi (01:29):
Yeah, that's dictatorship.
Karen Koehler (01:31):
And what I learned was that the best way to
be a leader was to be verypositive and to encourage people
and also to acknowledge peopleand et cetera.
However, and I still believethat, however and this is where
I this is one of those it's notexactly a therapy session, but I
(01:54):
do need your input.
As a result of that philosophy,which I've brought over to the
office, I think that there havebeen some unintended
consequences that are negative.
What I think?
There's two of them.
Mo Hamoudi (02:06):
What are they?
Karen Koehler (02:07):
Well, the one of them is, for example, when I
share a good result, I make sureto make sure that everybody
that was working on it, from meon down, feels equally important
.
Okay, me on down feels equallyimportant.
(02:29):
Okay, and I did that recentlyand was criticized for doing
that by two of my partnersbecause they said you need to be
able to accept that the otherteam members, without you, would
have been able to do this.
Team members without you wouldhave been able to do this, but
(02:52):
it's your additional presence,your work, your input that made
something extraordinary.
And I had to get back and becomfortable even thinking that
that was true.
So that's issue.
Number one is, and I've alwaysbeen very bad at being able to
accept compliment, and part ofthis is because my parents were
super critical my mother inparticular, like I used to play
piano and she never saidanything nice about it, other
(03:16):
than when I was doing a concertand then everyone.
She would tell everyone oh howgreat, great, great, great.
It was Same.
She never could give acompliment to my face.
It was other people, and I wasalways embarrassed by that.
I just didn't like it and so Icarried that into.
I've always had that way.
Like you can't compliment me.
Although I will evade, I willchange a subject.
(03:36):
I will not accept it can I askhim really?
Mike Todd (03:39):
quick yeah did she also compliment other people for
their accomplishments.
Karen Koehler (03:47):
No.
Mike Todd (03:47):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (03:49):
Other than herself.
Yeah, Well, I figured that very, you know, and and so that that
was issue number one and thenissue number two is because of
that.
I don't know if people realizehow self-effacing I am.
I am very self-effacing, Ithink.
(04:10):
I don't know if people justtake it for granted.
Mo Hamoudi (04:12):
What do you mean?
Karen Koehler (04:13):
That's what I mean.
I cannot accept a compliment Iwon't.
As a result of that.
There has been times when I'vethought that you know.
One thing for me that's a bigdeal is respect.
I need people to respect,Respect me.
I've always needed that.
(04:34):
Like I want to be respected butnot complimented.
Is that a weird thing?
Like in my jobs, I want to beacknowledged for what I've done.
I don't want to hear someplatitude of you.
Know, you're so wonderful.
That means nothing to me.
I want this.
It's a very strainedrelationship between the two of
(04:56):
them that exists and most peopledon't know this.
You just see it as you know,and I think, also because I'm so
willing to just thank everybodyand be very self-effacing, that
it could backfire upon me andundermine people's understanding
(05:17):
of what I'm bringing to theequation, because I'm so quick
to thank others and not takecredit for myself.
Mo Hamoudi (05:26):
Wow, okay One.
I do know that about you.
I do know that you do not knowhow to take compliments, because
when I've tried to give youaffirmations, what you will do
is use what I call segue wordsand shift the conversation to
something else.
Karen Koehler (05:42):
Correct.
Mo Hamoudi (05:43):
And you've done that to me repeatedly Now, now
that's, that's something alittle bit different than what
you're talking about isleadership, and what it means to
be a leader.
Karen Koehler (05:51):
I think it affects my leadership.
Mo Hamoudi (05:54):
I give you that.
Karen Koehler (05:54):
And the good thing, right, the good thing is
that you have a leader thatdoesn't hog all.
I mean people would besurprised I do not hog all the
attention.
Those people that think I hogall the attention I don't.
Mo Hamoudi (06:13):
But somehow I don't think it's always a good thing.
I don't know about if it's agood thing or a bad thing, karen
, but I think that actions speaklouder than words.
Sometimes you don't need to sayanything, and I'm a big
believer in this.
If you don't know my value, Iam not going to tell you my
value.
If you are not curious to knowmy value, then I am not
interested in having you in mysphere, in my sphere of what I
(06:36):
believe to be people that areimportant to me.
Karen Koehler (06:39):
But how are you at taking compliments?
Mo Hamoudi (06:41):
I'm not, you know.
Affirmations from the peoplewho are in my sphere mean a
great deal to me.
Yeah, you like them, I likethem.
You're the opposite to me.
Yeah, you like them, I likethem.
You're the opposite of me.
Karen Koehler (06:50):
Yeah, I like them, like if I give you an
affirmation, you are like glowypuppy.
Mo Hamoudi (06:53):
Yes, he's like glowy puppy.
Karen Koehler (06:57):
Yes, he's like so happy.
Mo Hamoudi (06:58):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Karen Koehler (07:00):
Versus me.
I'm like kick the dog.
I'm like don't.
Mo Hamoudi (07:11):
Get away like that.
Don't get away.
But if you're not accepting theaffirmation, is it impacting
your ability to lead?
Karen Koehler (07:15):
Is that what you're saying?
I don't know, and it's not thatI just don't accept it.
I also want to hear it, but Idon't accept it.
It's a very complicated.
I want to hear it Like youshould give me an affirmation,
but I may outwardly reject it.
Does this make sense, mike?
Mike Todd (07:30):
Oh yeah, well, I'm exactly like that.
I don't like to takecompliments at all.
Karen Koehler (07:33):
But you want them.
Mike Todd (07:34):
Well, of course, I think everybody wants them, no
matter what they say but youwant them, but you don't take
them.
Well, no because I feel likeit's the same for me.
I had a father who didn'tcompliment me, but he also would
spend a lot of time talkingabout other you know, like his
other.
Oh, so-and-so's son, they didthis, or?
(07:57):
that comparison which made mefeel even smaller.
But the other part for me is Ialways like to be part of a team
, which is interesting, becauseI don't like to be around people
that much either.
So, just in the same way thatyou said that you want the
(08:18):
compliments but you don't wantthem, I want to be part of a
team but I don't want to bearound any of the team.
People are complicated many ofthe team people are complicated,
but it's for me, it's.
Being part of a team means thatyou don't take the compliment
that you, that you don't needthe compliment because everyone
(08:39):
needs the compliment togetheryeah I see this is where the
leadership part comes in.
Karen Koehler (08:45):
So I believe that, but I think that sometimes
even in my own firm, that I'mnot respected enough.
Mike Todd (08:57):
Well, I think that that's where some of the needing
the compliments come in yeah.
Because you recognize when youdon't get it as less worth
Recognize, when you don't get itas less worth.
Karen Koehler (09:08):
And because maybe not everybody is in the
inner circle of people, that Iknow exactly where they are and
I have a very strongrelationship with them.
This is a big firm.
I have acquaintances in the lawfirm and I have closer people
to me in the law firm.
Mo Hamoudi (09:27):
So interesting of people to me in the law firm so
interesting.
Well, I think that the questionof respect and acknowledging
your worth and complimenting you, and leadership are all tied
together.
Karen Koehler (09:41):
I know.
This is why I raised it In aweird way.
Mo Hamoudi (09:44):
Well, I think that you can.
As a leader, sometimes you haveto demand respect, and there
are ways in which you can demandrespect as a leader.
Karen Koehler (09:56):
But you see, like that's also an anathema,
right, like that's just likesaying that you don't want to
have someone give you acompliment if you have to ask
for it.
Mo Hamoudi (10:07):
Respect and asking for a compliment, I think, are
distinct things.
Karen Koehler (10:10):
Okay, good, because I really I ugh.
Mike Todd (10:14):
Yeah, respect is bigger than a compliment.
Yes, respect is the complimentrealized always.
Yes, so that, and that's what Iwant too.
I mean, that's where I wouldsay I am.
I don't need people tocompliment me for things.
I need to know that they knowthat I'm going to do that every
(10:37):
time, that that's what's goingto happen, so that they want me
there because they know thatthat's going to happen.
Karen Koehler (10:44):
That's a good point.
Mo Hamoudi (10:46):
And the other thing is communicating that out, karen
is, I think.
Karen Koehler (10:55):
But I think that there's also a line between in
law firms and in many corporatestructures, between respect and
fear, because my position, likeI think that there are probably
some people, especially likenewer lawyers, that would fear
me versus meeting me, versusrespecting me.
Mo Hamoudi (11:11):
But that's your responsibility.
I know and how you developrelationship as a leader with
the people you lead.
I think leadership is actuallynot that difficult If you buy
into the principle of the buckstops with me, I am accountable.
If I'm the leader, I amaccountable.
(11:31):
If the culture there'ssomething going on, I take
responsibility for that and Iwill lead and then if somebody
is not respecting my leadershipthen they can't be part of the
culture.
I think it's kind of verystraightforward and I think that
the other stuff, like for me,when I'm in leadership positions
in sports or in other settings,that I'm in leadership in
(11:53):
organizations that's the mindsetI bring in.
Karen Koehler (11:55):
You're a dude.
Mo Hamoudi (11:58):
I thought we're not supposed to use the word anymore
.
Karen Koehler (12:01):
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
Mo Hamoudi (12:03):
I didn't use the word.
Karen Koehler (12:05):
Mike, I did not say it's on film, it's on film.
Oh, my goodness, you're a guyand I'm not, and it's different.
Mike Todd (12:13):
Okay, it's only a little different, because I
would say that a certain amountof fear from subordinates is
needed, because that'sacknowledging the power that the
leader has.
But what I would consider agood leader is someone who has
that but doesn't utilize itexcept in the situations where
(12:38):
it's needed, and never uses itagainst a subordinate.
Karen Koehler (12:41):
I don't even like the word subordinate.
Mike Todd (12:43):
Yeah, I know but I was struggling with the language
.
Mo Hamoudi (12:47):
Okay, it's the difference between a leader and
those that are led.
There is a difference.
There are people that are beingled and there is a reason why
they're not leaders because theyare not either ready or want to
or fit to be leaders, andthat's just the way the world is
organized.
And so you have to respecthierarchy, you have to respect
(13:11):
it, you have to acknowledge itfrom the bottom up, and I just
think that if there is norespect within hierarchy, then
to me it's like that's a weakteam.
That's a weak team.
You are not going to win, thatculture is not going to compete
right, and and so to me, that iscritical, critical and and and.
(13:35):
So you know, I'm not going totell you how to lead, karen, you
know exactly how to lead, and Idisagree with the dude thing,
because I think, like youtranscend dude, you know, or
whatever thing that you justbrought up, you transcend that,
and I think there's somethingelse that is hedging,
(14:02):
decisiveness.
Karen Koehler (14:05):
What, what you know, say what's on your mind.
Say it.
I can't Say it, spit it out.
Mo Hamoudi (14:19):
I think that there's a part of you that wants not to
be feared, and being decisiveis ultimately going to result in
people not only respecting youbut fearing you.
And it's about like reallygrowing into that type of
(14:39):
leadership where you're like I'mmaking a decision and I am
doing X, and people will.
It'll shake a little bit thehierarchy, It'll shake the
structure, and then people willbe like but no, but that's what
leaders do, and then they go.
I take responsibility for that.
Karen Koehler (14:58):
I mean there's different things that I've led
where I don't care.
I mean I don't care, meanyou're I don't care, I, people
better fear me.
I'm going to be the leader, I'mthe one, and you and we're
going to all, we're all in thistogether and you know.
But if you're talking about thelaw firm, I really don't you're
, it's true.
Um, I don't.
(15:18):
I don't like to wield power forthe sake of wielding power.
I don't like to wield power forthe sake of wielding power.
I don't like structures.
I've already been counseled onthis by our coaches.
We're already going through alot of change here because,
according to them, I was as farleft over in terms of lenient as
you could possibly be, becauseI believe in the power of
(15:38):
self-governance.
Mo Hamoudi (15:42):
But that's an illusion.
Karen Koehler (15:43):
I know this now.
Okay, now you know this.
That was three years ago.
Mo Hamoudi (15:47):
It's an illusion, because the image we are
projecting out to the communityis that my watch just went down,
is that?
The image that we project tothe community is that we are an
organization whose ethos is realjustice, real people.
Okay, that is our ethos and wehave a hierarchy.
(16:08):
Just look at our website.
Karen Koehler (16:11):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (16:11):
You are the managing partner.
Karen Koehler (16:12):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (16:13):
And then, so to me, what is our mission?
Who's our leader?
Lead and then we follow, andit's like everything structures
down from that there is no, I'vegotten used to it.
Karen Koehler (16:24):
Okay, all right, but it's something you know.
What is interesting about it isthat most leaders of law firms
do not have my struggles.
They're like, they're going tobe like Ruthless Mo.
I am the leader and you'regoing to all follow me and I'm
going to lead my.
Mike Todd (16:39):
Well, and that's I mean, I could say, from when I
started here.
That was more what it was likewhen I first started.
But I would say, to go back torespect of a leader, because I
think that that's important,very important.
When you have true respect forsomeone who you are working
(17:01):
underneath, when you have truerespect for someone who you are
working underneath, you'rewilling to go to them when
you're at your most vulnerableand ask for help or ask for
guidance, and a good leader willdo that without utilizing the
fear that they can wield, theybecome compassionate and helpful
(17:26):
.
Mo Hamoudi (17:27):
Some of the ones that we had before you weren't
like that Okay, and that's notnecessarily a bad leader, but
not a respected leader, but it'sa double-edged sword, and the
double-edged sword, mike, isthat I think that the gender
dynamic plays a big role in this.
Mike Todd (17:44):
Oh, I agree.
Mo Hamoudi (17:45):
I don't think that part of the respect that Karen
doesn't get is because of hergender.
Karen Koehler (17:50):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (17:50):
And sometimes it's from women of her own gender.
Oh yeah, and so I think that.
Karen Koehler (17:57):
Women of my own gender.
Wait did I say that?
Right, you did.
Gender wait, did I say that?
Right he did.
He said I don't know thatthat's right.
Women of my own gender.
Well, you know what I mean, youknow exactly what I mean.
Mo Hamoudi (18:08):
Okay, I'm just trying to stay away from dude
individuals of your own tryingto stay away from terms that are
you know, what I'm saying is isthat and so like, like I mean
I'll give you a nononspecificexample you know of.
I mean, karen is.
I've worked with some of thegreatest lawyers in this country
(18:31):
and she does not get the creditthat she deserves as being
masterful in how she practiceslaw.
Masterful, masterful in how shepractices law, masterful and
you know the fact that I'veshared this with her and
sometimes she doesn't know howto manage a compliment like that
, and I've had to be veryspecific and targeted in
(18:57):
describing what I mean bymasterful.
I said the way in which youpace a case just pace a case,
pacing cases and you pace casesfrom beginning to end is
masterful.
It's like symphony.
You know how to move a casefrom one direction to the next
and create this sense ofunpredictability for people who
(19:20):
need to manage risk, and you doit so well that you never lose
control of a case and thatdictates settlements and that
dictates verdicts, and I waslike that takes a very masterful
ability to do that and I havenever seen any other lawyer pace
a case as well as she does, andthat is why this firm right now
(19:40):
is so frickin' successful andthat is why this firm right now
is so freaking successful andthe fact that people don't
understand the value.
This is what I mean.
I go back to what I said earlier.
I was like if you don't know myvalue, I am not going to come
and beg you to find it out.
If you're not curious about whoI am and why I'm good at what I
(20:01):
do, then I'm not interested inhaving you in my sphere.
Now, that's not from thecontext of a leader, karen.
A leader has to understand whythey choose to have people in
their spheres and why they don't.
You're responsible.
You're the leader.
Mike Todd (20:19):
This is you.
You've created it.
Mo Hamoudi (20:22):
Yes, okay, so you can't be upset about it I'm not
upset about okay, all right,just want to make sure, yeah,
you know okay but it is.
Karen Koehler (20:29):
You know, nothing is ever straightforward,
because we're humans andthere's just all these weird
dichotomies and different thingsthat motivate us or unmotivate
us, or that we like or don'tlike, and they're.
It's not just people like blackand white, like people like
things that are simple andstraightforward, but when you
look at who we are, we're neverno we're not no, no, no, but I
(20:56):
just gave you a compliment andyou took it well, I thought you
received it pretty well.
I didn't, I, I didn't how wasthat compliment?
Mo Hamoudi (21:03):
it was accurate, it was genuine, it was very
accurate, and I got a lot more.
But she doesn't want to hear it.
I'll see her do stuff, mike andI go, okay, okay woof woof.
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