June 18, 2025 • 25 mins
Episode 22: Post-Settlement Syndrome
In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™, Karen and Mo talk about the emotional crash that hits when you’re “all dressed up and nowhere to party.” Karen calls it post-settlement syndrome. The adrenaline is still pumping, but there’s no fight. They unpack what it feels like when justice is close enough to taste, but the public reckoning never happens. Mike compares it to being robbed of your moment in the ring.
The frustration is real. They reveal how even a great result for a client can feel hollow when it stops short of holding the other side publicly accountable.
They revisit the landmark $10 million Black Lives Matter settlement and explore why some lawyers would rather go to trial than accept the win. For Karen and Mo, the trial isn’t just about the outcome. It’s about the strategy, the confrontation, and the moral clarity that only comes in open court. When that energy has nowhere to go, it often manifests as spicy interactions between colleagues.
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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mo Hamoudi (00:05):
I mean, it's a it's I.
I just have this sensationwhere I'm not coming down, I am
up, my adrenaline is up.
I don't maybe I'm notmanifesting it, but I'm just
jacked up.
I can't sleep.
I was ready to go to trial.
We were going to go to Tacomafor like six weeks, I think, and
(00:31):
it was going to be.
Karen Koehler (00:34):
Epic.
Mo Hamoudi (00:35):
Doozy, and then now we are not going to trial.
Karen Koehler (00:40):
All dressed up and nowhere to party.
Mo Hamoudi (00:44):
Yes, all dressed up and nowhere to party.
Yes, all dressed up and nowhereto go.
It's hard, I can't.
I can't.
I mean it's now bleeding intoother cases.
Karen Koehler (00:55):
Mo be honest.
How lovely have I been to bearound the last week.
Mo Hamoudi (01:00):
You have been.
You have been spicy.
I mean, mike, she's been sospicy.
She's been short interrupting,not letting me finish.
It's like as if I did something.
You're the one who resolved thecase, I didn't.
You stopped this.
Karen Koehler (01:19):
Loris beat me in backgammon.
I've had a full-on tantrum.
I was on the floor kicking myfeet like I was three years old.
I just let it rip.
I'm so aggressive right now.
Mike Todd (01:31):
So you think that it's all the build-up to the
case that you were gearing up tofight and then you didn't get
to fight.
So now you're.
It's common.
Now it's weaning off at thelast second.
Karen Koehler (01:43):
It's post-settlement malaise, Except
for it's not really malaise,yeah no malaise would be not
doing anything.
Mike Todd (01:52):
What you guys are doing is picking fights with
each other because you wanted tofight somebody else and now you
can't.
Karen Koehler (01:57):
I mean several times we've had a meeting.
Mike Todd (01:59):
And you can't really talk about it either.
Karen Koehler (02:00):
No, we can't talk about it.
Mo Hamoudi (02:02):
It's called post-settlement syndrome.
Karen Koehler (02:04):
It about it either.
No, we can't talk about it,it's called post-settlement
syndrome.
Mo Hamoudi (02:05):
I think that there is a DSM out there that has
classified this as a condition.
It's called post-settlementsyndrome.
Mike Todd (02:12):
I'm not going to say I know whether or not that's
true.
However, in all fairness.
Karen Koehler (02:16):
Most attorneys want to settle the cases that
they're working on, and they'realways thrilled when they're
done and when they settle them.
Mike Todd (02:23):
Well, they settle them.
We've talked about that before.
This firm and firms like us aredifferent because we want to go
to trial.
It would have been a good thingif you prevailed at this for
more than just us as the peoplewho were going to be going to do
the fight.
This is like a heavyweightboxing match, but at the last
(02:47):
second, the the, the ref comesin and says, okay, it's over,
it's over.
It's exactly what happened.
Karen Koehler (02:54):
All right, Literally that's exactly what
happened.
Don't, don't, not talk.
We got to talk about it.
Mike Todd (02:59):
Yeah, we were a year and a half of wait, he's got to
go back on oh it's, oh, younever let you go, we just kept
talking oh excellent good but wewe might have to edit some out
because I'm concerned that theycould hear you talking oh yeah,
sorry, this is my water guy well, that's not something that we
really need to worry about.
Karen Koehler (03:19):
That's pretty funny I mean okay, let's rewind,
let's structure this.
Mo Hamoudi (03:25):
Okay, let's structure this.
Karen Koehler (03:28):
So you settle a case, your client's happy.
Mo Hamoudi (03:40):
I'm not.
Karen Koehler (03:40):
You've done a very good job, but the case is
over, and it's a case thatyou've been working on like high
intensity, for in this case itwas pretty fast only two years.
Mo Hamoudi (03:53):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (03:54):
Wrongful death case.
There is just.
Where is that energy going togo?
It's got to go somewhere, andwhere it's coming out is my
attitude is bad.
Mo Hamoudi (04:05):
I mean, her attitude is terrible right now.
Karen Koehler (04:08):
It's like if a defense lawyer looks at me the
wrong way, I will just go allover.
And it's not even a defenselawyer.
It's even my friends.
Mo Hamoudi (04:18):
She's being very spicy.
Karen Koehler (04:20):
That's the thing .
Mo Hamoudi (04:21):
She's just being spicy.
Karen Koehler (04:22):
I'm aggressive.
Mike Todd (04:23):
You guys need to have a field trip to where you go to
a gym and just work out on theheavy bag for a while or
something like that.
Mo Hamoudi (04:33):
I mean honestly.
I've been going to the gymevery day and I'm trying to get
it out of me.
Karen Koehler (04:37):
It's pretty much almost gone for me.
Mo Hamoudi (04:39):
Yeah, no, it's not.
It's not, you were like it thismorning.
Karen Koehler (04:44):
No what.
Mo Hamoudi (04:45):
Yeah, you were like it right in my office right now
.
You were like it.
You're very spicy and it's justthe adrenaline.
It's that you know, when youteach your body to go into
battle mode and you're preppedand you've done everything right
and you're getting ready towalk in.
And you've done everythingright and you're getting ready
to walk in, and we were gettingready to walk in and kick the
(05:07):
ever-loving life out of theother side, and then somebody
says they submit.
And then you go, what they go,they submit.
That's basically how I readthis.
I don't view settlement as likeoh, we got together and we—they
submitted, they submitted.
They knew what they werewalking into and they submitted.
(05:31):
That's why you want to fight.
You don't want the submission,because the whole time they've
been signaling that they want tofight.
Karen Koehler (05:39):
The last time that this happened where I was
again, was I conflicted.
I wasn't conflicted becauseultimately and I can talk about
this settlement it was when wesettled the Black Lives Matter
case for $10 million, which wasabout $8 million more than I
thought that they would ever payI was 100% convinced we were
(06:01):
going to go to trial on thatcase.
That's the only reason I evertook it.
Mo Hamoudi (06:05):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (06:05):
The only reason I took that case pro bono
initially was to try it becauseI wanted the public to know.
I wanted them to know exactlywhat happened and the only way
you could get a good hearing ofthat was to have the trial.
And the clients wanted to havea trial.
That's why they signed up,because I said don't come into
(06:25):
this case unless you want to goto trial.
We want to try this case.
It is important, it is part ofhistory.
We need to do it.
And that case was four years inthe making and when it came time
to settle and they decided tokeep raising and raising, and
raising until it was at a pointwhere I couldn't say, like we're
(06:47):
going to beat this amount morethan 50% of the time that's
normally kind of my, you know.
Can we beat this more than 50%of the time?
The answer was no.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I can't tell you that we will,because the political climate
has changed.
People turn their backs on theprotesters.
I mean now we're looking at theDOJ just reversing its
(07:10):
investigation of the policedepartments on George Floyd and
Breonna Taylor.
I mean the world has changed infour years.
Mike Todd (07:18):
People are being arrested for protesting period.
Yes, People are being stopped.
Karen Koehler (07:21):
Free period.
Mike Todd (07:21):
Yes, people are being stopped, like free speech has
been suspended essentially so.
Karen Koehler (07:27):
So we were so.
So we we get to the point andwe are ramped up.
We have huge team.
Everybody wants to try the case.
We go in there thinking they'regoing to offer us two million
dollars and that we'll have ahard decision to make.
And that's not what theyoffered.
Mo Hamoudi (07:43):
And they offered more.
Okay.
So I think this is the part wecan kind of talk about is
because, okay, the art of thesettlement and how it drives you
to stop a case and talk aboutBlack Lives Matter, like what is
it that stops the case?
Like why?
So?
Why 10 million?
What's?
Karen Koehler (08:03):
it seems arbitrary well, we talked about
that before yeah it was that theonly way that we would agree to
settle the case was if it was astatement of liability okay and
the, and we believed and weagreed that 10 was a statement
and in that has turned out to betrue.
There's a difference.
Mo Hamoudi (08:24):
I've told you before between 9, 9, 9, 9, 9.
Karen Koehler (08:26):
9, 9 and 10.
So 10 was that line in the sandnumber and they decided to pay
it.
And I was in the middle ofanother trial when this was
going on and I don't know ifI've ever talked about this
other than to the press they putin their settlement agreement
that we couldn't contact themedia until yeah, it was like
(08:51):
eight days or.
It was Well, it was like thenext week until this hour and it
wasn't very long and I agreedto it and I thought Ann Davison
wants to get.
She wants to because they'vewatched how I work and they're
going to like trump us.
So we had already even though Ididn't think the case was ever
(09:15):
going to settle had already beenworking on the press release
which we went.
Even though I was in trial inanother case, I took the lead on
drafting press release, whichwe went.
Even though I was in trial inanother case, I took the lead on
drafting that thing,illustrating it, creating the
whole package.
So it was ready to go and thenarranged with Cassie's help but,
trust me, I was a, you know,mastermind of this for all the
(09:36):
clients that could to come downto the courthouse in Lumhal and
for everyone to come down.
And so I literally finishedclosing argument, walked out the
door, down the hall and that'swhere the press conference was.
I remember that you were in thatpink jacket and it had to be
done because, guess what, likean hour before that happened,
the city had released a releasesaying we did this, but it
(09:59):
wasn't our, and you know we justdid it because you know this
was a, this was an economicsdecision and and I called bs on
it- no, you did more than thatwell I call that you.
Mo Hamoudi (10:10):
That was your punk speech I did.
I called them punks that was Icalled the famous punk speech.
Yeah, and you were in pink, Iwas crying at halftime.
Karen Koehler (10:17):
I was so angry I was, I was you were what are
the?
What is the word for?
You know, hangry is when you'rehungry and angry.
What is it when you're so angrythat you just lose it?
I mean intentionally, I allowmyself to just cry angry.
I was so furious, she wascrying.
Mo Hamoudi (10:34):
You were cranky.
Karen Koehler (10:35):
Well, it was cause.
You know, the protesters werethere and they were so lovely
and important.
They were such importantclients, their mission was so
worthy.
They're so eloquent.
They were there and they wereso lovely and important.
They were such importantclients, their mission was so
worthy.
They're so eloquent.
They were there to protect thefirst amendment.
The the ones, all of them, butyou know, especially the ones
that were there they could soeloquently say what they were
(10:55):
doing and why.
And it was never about the money, it was about making a
statement and doing this onbehalf of.
And here we are like, what gooddid it do?
I don't know.
History says it did somethinggood and it did something good
for them and it gave a mark, amarker of this is what the world
should be like.
And now we've, now we're goingbackwards.
But that is an example of again.
(11:20):
I mean I didn't have time to beupset about settling the case
because I was in trial onanother case and I had to deal
with this stupid press releasebattle that the city foisted on
us because they wanted to getout and give their statement.
But afterwards, yes, I mean, Istill feel the pain.
(11:44):
You know, you talk about, youfeel the pain on losing Um, you
feel the pain on not gettingenough, but I do feel the pain
that I never got to try manycases.
I feel the pain of it Not often, but maybe that's why I react
so poorly after this last one isbecause it's every time it
(12:07):
happens.
It's it's a cumulative effect.
Mo Hamoudi (12:09):
It's the trauma of having settled cases that I
wanted to try so bad becausejustice was on our side the pain
that I feel, and the pain thatI feel is the pain of not having
the opportunity to confront theother side with what they did
(12:36):
wrong and hold them accountablein a way in which I know this is
a little bit aggressive buthumiliates them.
Karen Koehler (12:47):
A public humiliation.
Mo Hamoudi (12:49):
That's my—I feel the same way.
Okay, all right.
Karen Koehler (12:51):
I feel the same way.
I wanted them to be exposed.
Mo Hamoudi (12:54):
And to have those witnesses on the stand and
slowly walk them through whatthey did and then ask them—.
Karen Koehler (13:02):
Inexcusable.
Mo Hamoudi (13:03):
Ask them a question what accountability, if any, do
you take for what happened?
Karen Koehler (13:07):
I'll never forget the one officer that just
shot the blast ball that hitone of our clients directly in
the chest, caused her heart tostop beating, and you know
you're supposed to only shootthose things, not to strike a
person.
And not only did he shoot it,but he just kept going on his
(13:29):
merry way.
He didn't wait to see where itlanded.
I mean it hit her right smack.
I mean the videos were justhorrible.
He violated all kinds ofprocedures and most of them are
still working for the policedepartment.
Mo Hamoudi (13:44):
I mean, the one I think of is the inquest hearing
that I just did in January andthe officer who was shot and
killed I was CF Aletogo.
He was on the stand and I askedhim a question and you know he
had the gun out and the gunpointed to the—I would see his
head and I said okay, so youhave the gun, right, that's in
(14:04):
your hand.
You're intentionally holdingthe gun, aren't you?
And I was like and then the gunjammed.
He pulled the trigger multipletimes.
So I slowed it down and I waslike so you were pulling the
trigger and when you did it, youwere intending to discharge a
bullet into his head.
(14:25):
And then I was like that wasn'tan accident, right?
And I was like walk me through,how slowly you did that?
Did you press it like this?
And I walked him through eachone and then I asked him I was
like what accountability do youtake for taking his life?
And they objected Wouldn't lethim answer the question.
Karen Koehler (14:46):
Because it was an inquest.
Mo Hamoudi (14:47):
Yeah, but you know I was like, do you take any
moral responsibility for whathappened?
And then they objected and shewouldn't let him answer.
But the jury at the end wantedthat answered.
Karen Koehler (15:00):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (15:01):
I think that, like that's the part of the trial I
miss is that you know and thisis Karen because I was a federal
public defender.
Karen Koehler (15:09):
There's many other selfish.
Okay, there's the high roadthat we've talked about, right?
No, I got to interrupt usbecause, we are so preachy in
high road.
Now I mean, let's be real.
Mo Hamoudi (15:21):
Okay, what's the real?
Karen Koehler (15:22):
Oh, come on.
Mo Hamoudi (15:23):
What are you talking about?
Karen Koehler (15:24):
It's the high point of what we do.
Mo Hamoudi (15:26):
It is the high point.
We can't play in our sandbox.
Karen Koehler (15:28):
They didn't let us play in our sandbox.
We wanted to throw sand andkick them in the face and do all
kinds of bad things, and theydeprived us of it, and so we are
very funky right now.
We wanted to do it, it was veryselfish.
Mike Todd (15:41):
You wanted to be able to I mean metaphorically you
wanted to be able to hit themand you didn't get to.
So now you're stomping aroundbecause you didn't get the
release.
Mo Hamoudi (15:50):
Okay, that's right.
I mean, okay, we wanted to playtetherball and they took the
tetherball away.
Okay, that's exactly right.
Karen Koehler (15:57):
We didn't want to play something as refined as
tetherball.
Mike Todd (16:00):
This was sock him, rock him, kick him.
No, this was punch him in theface.
That's exactly what you wantedto do.
Okay, that's right, look at him.
Mo Hamoudi (16:07):
He knows this is true.
So wait, this is rascal Mo.
Karen Koehler (16:11):
It is.
I wanted to be a rascal andruthless.
Mo Hamoudi (16:14):
I could be ruthless , but I think getting into the
sandbox is.
I also wanted to go in and playwith Karen in the sandbox.
Yes, because we have a lot offun, and the last trial we did
was the Summer Taylor trial.
Karen Koehler (16:33):
I think one of the highlights of the trial was
picking her up and then drivingto court and then driving her
home and not knowing how to getto her house and never knew how
to get back to my house.
The whole time I didn't knowhow to get to your house.
He drives like he's 95 yearsold.
Mo Hamoudi (16:44):
And literally we're sitting there and she's like
I'm like are we moving?
Karen Koehler (16:47):
Are we standing still?
Mike Todd (16:51):
Like can you please put your foot on the gas?
Yeah, that's me riding inanyone's car at any given time.
Mo Hamoudi (16:54):
Oh, my gosh and that picture I sent you, which
is her going.
Karen Koehler (16:57):
Which is cargo carrying which?
Mo Hamoudi (16:58):
is her going like this she's going, but that was
at the trial.
I think part of what I missedwas that you genuinely have a
good time trying a case withsomebody you enjoy trying a case
with, and I think that's alsowas.
Eh, that would have been afour-week party.
Karen Koehler (17:17):
Yeah, we were getting ready to.
I had said screw the Airbnb, wewere going to just go do it at
the hotel.
We had the calendar with thewitness names.
I mean all this stuff ishappening, the fun stuff that
comes at the end of the caseafter you've gone through
grueling months of depositionsand discovery, and there's like
I don't even know how manyattorneys are on all the cases
(17:39):
together there was probablyabout 15 attorneys against us
and we're just, you know, go, go, go, go and then it's over so
okay.
Mike Todd (17:47):
So one of the challenges I'm having right now,
it's like training for amarathon and it's canceled well,
and it's also you've gonethrough all the depositions
where they're little skirmishesyeah and you get I I I assume
you get frustrated whensomething happens in one of
those and you want to come backand go at them and then you
(18:08):
don't get to.
Karen Koehler (18:09):
I mean all the taunting that I do, because OK.
Mike Todd (18:13):
Yeah, no, you do.
Karen Koehler (18:15):
I taunt.
So I mean there was MuhammadAli and that kind of you know
Rocky, the Rocky film.
You know they're taunting,taunting.
That is not limited to thesports playing field.
Mike Todd (18:26):
No, it's not.
Karen Koehler (18:27):
I am a very good taunter and I will do it
sweetly.
Mo Hamoudi (18:32):
I'll move like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
You have no case?
Karen Koehler (18:36):
What is your case?
What is your damages case?
Oh, thank you for that witness.
I'm going to identify thatwitness as my own witness now.
Thank you very much.
Anything else, I mean, it'sjust a constant thing right,
which is very fun, and a lot ofgood defensors like engaging
with me in that and a lot of badones hate me for it.
But there's so much mind gamethat goes on when you're doing
(19:00):
something like this.
It is a sporting event in manyways.
It's physical, it's mental,it's all.
It's mental, it's allencompassing.
You're inside and you're out.
Everything that you're doing isfocused on that and then it's
(19:21):
gone.
Mo Hamoudi (19:21):
So one of the challenges is that now this sort
of spiciness is bleeding intoother cases.
Karen Koehler (19:23):
How do you?
Mo Hamoudi (19:24):
manage that.
I don't care, you don't care?
Well, what if the case doesn'treally need that?
And then this poor defenselawyer is like they all need it.
Why are you Now?
They know they all need it.
Karen Koehler (19:31):
Okay, they all need it.
I like that mantra.
You know, even when I'm rude,no offense to people here at the
office which I have been.
For people to know that, yeah,I can be a little bit of a brat.
Mo Hamoudi (19:44):
Yeah, yeah A lot.
Karen Koehler (19:45):
It reminds people like she didn't get where
she did just by being sweet andnice and trying to make
everybody happy.
Oh, she can throw a punch.
Oops, she just did.
I don't like it.
Mike Todd (19:56):
Exactly Stop.
Mo Hamoudi (20:00):
Just stop.
It's true.
It's true, yes, yes, you'reincorrigible.
Karen Koehler (20:05):
that is what you are.
Have I been mean to you?
Mo Hamoudi (20:07):
yeah, a little bit.
I mean, I mean, I could take it, I'm a big boy, but like yeah,
but like you know, because Iwant to do is get under your.
Karen Koehler (20:15):
I want to get into everybody's skin.
I just right now I'm so, I am,I am irascible, right now, okay,
you know what she does.
Mo Hamoudi (20:22):
I'm gonna give you an example.
We have another case coming upin September in federal court.
So the case is essentially anadmitted liability case and it's
just damages.
Karen Koehler (20:33):
Medical negligence.
Mo Hamoudi (20:34):
And then there's some liability on an issue
negligent infliction ofemotional distress.
But that aside, she says, well,this trial's coming up and I
don't really need anybody's help.
It gets better, I don't reallyneed anybody's help.
But you know, I'm gonna let youdo a witness.
(20:57):
And I was like, oh, you are.
I was like, well, thank you.
And then she's like but youcan't do damages, you don't know
damages, you don't know how toask for money.
Karen Koehler (21:06):
This is like what she's doing to me Wait,
wait.
He also said can I do opening?
I said no.
Mo Hamoudi (21:11):
And it's just like, but like.
So sometimes I'm hearing thisand then I'm going like he's
like you're wounding me.
I was like you are wounding me,you know.
And, by the way, mike, she didthis in the summer Taylor trial.
We're sitting there.
She's like I'm going to doVaudeer, I'm going to do Vaudeer
.
We got to get these with.
I was like, oh right, because Idon't know how to do Vaudeer.
(21:33):
What is that?
What is that process?
How do we do that?
How do we select or take jurorsoff?
And then she says, okay, youcan do Vaudeer, you can do
Vaudeer, you sure?
I was like okay.
And then I go in and I tossboth of the jurors we need to
toss in minutes.
And then she comes over to me,she writes a little note.
(21:55):
She goes okay, you can doVaudeer.
I mean, this is like a rollercoaster and we go through it
over and over and over again.
But it's sweet, I like it.
I'd say you're spicy, I don'ttake it personal, it's good.
Karen Koehler (22:11):
It's got all my bad qualities.
I change my mind constantlybecause I'm in trial.
And number two is my delegation.
I do delegate, but only after Itrust someone and I don't trust
you yet.
On money Damages, on damages, Idon't know how, yet on money
Damages On damages.
Mo Hamoudi (22:27):
I don't know how to ask for money, Mike.
Karen Koehler (22:29):
Well, it's not just asking, it's being
comfortable with it andunderstanding that it is not
money money like money money.
It is money in the context ofcompensation and honor and
dignity and respect.
Mo Hamoudi (22:41):
Yes, I understand that.
I know, I understand that.
You say you understand it.
Do you sense the tension rightnow?
Oh yeah, I mean talk about that, mike.
Do you sense this tension?
Karen Koehler (22:50):
And I don't apologize to anybody right now.
Mike Todd (22:52):
No, but I mean, I don't know what to say about any
of this.
There's a tension, I'm soaggressive I would say that to
the money thing, that that'sdifficult, it's hard to learn.
I think I don't.
I would have a lot ofdifficulty.
I have.
I've had trouble all throughoutmy life just getting my own
worth correct, but worth forother people would be even
(23:14):
harder, um, but I think that.
I think that this is a naturalprocess and I think, as long as
you recognize that it'shappening, and that Mo you
recognize that it's happening aswell to you, yes, I would say
(23:35):
you have been covering up a lotbetter, because you just crank
up the I'm so happy Mo as a mask.
Karen Koehler (23:43):
He gets more.
Mike Todd (23:47):
Because all week long you've been like hey how's?
Mo Hamoudi (23:51):
it going Wait we see you in a video on him.
Mike Todd (23:54):
You're like a little bouncing ball running around the
office.
That's a good point.
Karen Koehler (24:01):
Because he has his own energy and then he's
getting my energy thrown at him.
Mike Todd (24:04):
Oh yeah, he's reacting to your energy.
He's reacting to his own energy.
And then he's you know, he'sgetting my energy thrown at him.
Oh yeah, he's reacting to yourenergy.
He's reacting to his own energy.
That's a fair point.
Karen Koehler (24:10):
He's good at telling me that I'm hurting his
feelings.
Most tell me that I'm hurtingyour feelings.
Mo Hamoudi (24:14):
I just think you should be honest with people.
Yes there's nothing wrong withthat.
And then when I say that shegoes, yeah she recognizes what
she's doing, then she gets lessspicy.
Karen Koehler (24:24):
I mean, I'm also super impatient, like it's just
.
I just am irritable.
Mike Todd (24:30):
But that's all part of it.
It is.
I mean, that's just you tryingto shove it down inside and then
it's leaking out a little bit.
Karen Koehler (24:37):
I'm not trying to shove it down inside anymore.
It should be over by now.
I'm surprised that it's lastedthis long.
It's lasted over by now.
I'm surprised that it's lastedthis long.
Mike Todd (24:45):
It's lasted over a week, yeah, but it should be
over.
I think that was an intensecase.
Karen Koehler (24:48):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (24:49):
Even though it was short, I think there was a lot
to it and I think that caseslike that are tough.
Karen Koehler (24:58):
They're all encompassing.
Mike Todd (24:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that takes a lot out of you.
Karen Koehler (25:01):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (25:02):
And in this case it builds up a lot inside of you
which you didn't get to releasebecause it's over.
Karen Koehler (25:10):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (25:11):
It's over, it's over.
Karen Koehler (25:17):
And it's over.
Okay, that's good, is that it?
That was a good one.
I mean, it's a it's I.
I just have this sensationwhere I'm not coming down, I am
up, my adrenaline is up.
I don't maybe I'm notmanifesting it, but I'm just
jacked up.
I can't sleep.
I was ready to go to trial.
We were going to go to Tacomafor like six weeks, I think, and
(00:31):
it was going to be.
Karen Koehler (00:34):
Epic.
Mo Hamoudi (00:35):
Doozy, and then now we are not going to trial.
Karen Koehler (00:40):
All dressed up and nowhere to party.
Mo Hamoudi (00:44):
Yes, all dressed up and nowhere to party.
Yes, all dressed up and nowhereto go.
It's hard, I can't.
I can't.
I mean it's now bleeding intoother cases.
Karen Koehler (00:55):
Mo be honest.
How lovely have I been to bearound the last week.
Mo Hamoudi (01:00):
You have been.
You have been spicy.
I mean, mike, she's been sospicy.
She's been short interrupting,not letting me finish.
It's like as if I did something.
You're the one who resolved thecase, I didn't.
You stopped this.
Karen Koehler (01:19):
Loris beat me in backgammon.
I've had a full-on tantrum.
I was on the floor kicking myfeet like I was three years old.
I just let it rip.
I'm so aggressive right now.
Mike Todd (01:31):
So you think that it's all the build-up to the
case that you were gearing up tofight and then you didn't get
to fight.
So now you're.
It's common.
Now it's weaning off at thelast second.
Karen Koehler (01:43):
It's post-settlement malaise, Except
for it's not really malaise,yeah no malaise would be not
doing anything.
Mike Todd (01:52):
What you guys are doing is picking fights with
each other because you wanted tofight somebody else and now you
can't.
Karen Koehler (01:57):
I mean several times we've had a meeting.
Mike Todd (01:59):
And you can't really talk about it either.
Karen Koehler (02:00):
No, we can't talk about it.
Mo Hamoudi (02:02):
It's called post-settlement syndrome.
Karen Koehler (02:04):
It about it either.
No, we can't talk about it,it's called post-settlement
syndrome.
Mo Hamoudi (02:05):
I think that there is a DSM out there that has
classified this as a condition.
It's called post-settlementsyndrome.
Mike Todd (02:12):
I'm not going to say I know whether or not that's
true.
However, in all fairness.
Karen Koehler (02:16):
Most attorneys want to settle the cases that
they're working on, and they'realways thrilled when they're
done and when they settle them.
Mike Todd (02:23):
Well, they settle them.
We've talked about that before.
This firm and firms like us aredifferent because we want to go
to trial.
It would have been a good thingif you prevailed at this for
more than just us as the peoplewho were going to be going to do
the fight.
This is like a heavyweightboxing match, but at the last
(02:47):
second, the the, the ref comesin and says, okay, it's over,
it's over.
It's exactly what happened.
Karen Koehler (02:54):
All right, Literally that's exactly what
happened.
Don't, don't, not talk.
We got to talk about it.
Mike Todd (02:59):
Yeah, we were a year and a half of wait, he's got to
go back on oh it's, oh, younever let you go, we just kept
talking oh excellent good but wewe might have to edit some out
because I'm concerned that theycould hear you talking oh yeah,
sorry, this is my water guy well, that's not something that we
really need to worry about.
Karen Koehler (03:19):
That's pretty funny I mean okay, let's rewind,
let's structure this.
Mo Hamoudi (03:25):
Okay, let's structure this.
Karen Koehler (03:28):
So you settle a case, your client's happy.
Mo Hamoudi (03:40):
I'm not.
Karen Koehler (03:40):
You've done a very good job, but the case is
over, and it's a case thatyou've been working on like high
intensity, for in this case itwas pretty fast only two years.
Mo Hamoudi (03:53):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (03:54):
Wrongful death case.
There is just.
Where is that energy going togo?
It's got to go somewhere, andwhere it's coming out is my
attitude is bad.
Mo Hamoudi (04:05):
I mean, her attitude is terrible right now.
Karen Koehler (04:08):
It's like if a defense lawyer looks at me the
wrong way, I will just go allover.
And it's not even a defenselawyer.
It's even my friends.
Mo Hamoudi (04:18):
She's being very spicy.
Karen Koehler (04:20):
That's the thing .
Mo Hamoudi (04:21):
She's just being spicy.
Karen Koehler (04:22):
I'm aggressive.
Mike Todd (04:23):
You guys need to have a field trip to where you go to
a gym and just work out on theheavy bag for a while or
something like that.
Mo Hamoudi (04:33):
I mean honestly.
I've been going to the gymevery day and I'm trying to get
it out of me.
Karen Koehler (04:37):
It's pretty much almost gone for me.
Mo Hamoudi (04:39):
Yeah, no, it's not.
It's not, you were like it thismorning.
Karen Koehler (04:44):
No what.
Mo Hamoudi (04:45):
Yeah, you were like it right in my office right now
.
You were like it.
You're very spicy and it's justthe adrenaline.
It's that you know, when youteach your body to go into
battle mode and you're preppedand you've done everything right
and you're getting ready towalk in.
And you've done everythingright and you're getting ready
to walk in, and we were gettingready to walk in and kick the
(05:07):
ever-loving life out of theother side, and then somebody
says they submit.
And then you go, what they go,they submit.
That's basically how I readthis.
I don't view settlement as likeoh, we got together and we—they
submitted, they submitted.
They knew what they werewalking into and they submitted.
(05:31):
That's why you want to fight.
You don't want the submission,because the whole time they've
been signaling that they want tofight.
Karen Koehler (05:39):
The last time that this happened where I was
again, was I conflicted.
I wasn't conflicted becauseultimately and I can talk about
this settlement it was when wesettled the Black Lives Matter
case for $10 million, which wasabout $8 million more than I
thought that they would ever payI was 100% convinced we were
(06:01):
going to go to trial on thatcase.
That's the only reason I evertook it.
Mo Hamoudi (06:05):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (06:05):
The only reason I took that case pro bono
initially was to try it becauseI wanted the public to know.
I wanted them to know exactlywhat happened and the only way
you could get a good hearing ofthat was to have the trial.
And the clients wanted to havea trial.
That's why they signed up,because I said don't come into
(06:25):
this case unless you want to goto trial.
We want to try this case.
It is important, it is part ofhistory.
We need to do it.
And that case was four years inthe making and when it came time
to settle and they decided tokeep raising and raising, and
raising until it was at a pointwhere I couldn't say, like we're
(06:47):
going to beat this amount morethan 50% of the time that's
normally kind of my, you know.
Can we beat this more than 50%of the time?
The answer was no.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I can't tell you that we will,because the political climate
has changed.
People turn their backs on theprotesters.
I mean now we're looking at theDOJ just reversing its
(07:10):
investigation of the policedepartments on George Floyd and
Breonna Taylor.
I mean the world has changed infour years.
Mike Todd (07:18):
People are being arrested for protesting period.
Yes, People are being stopped.
Karen Koehler (07:21):
Free period.
Mike Todd (07:21):
Yes, people are being stopped, like free speech has
been suspended essentially so.
Karen Koehler (07:27):
So we were so.
So we we get to the point andwe are ramped up.
We have huge team.
Everybody wants to try the case.
We go in there thinking they'regoing to offer us two million
dollars and that we'll have ahard decision to make.
And that's not what theyoffered.
Mo Hamoudi (07:43):
And they offered more.
Okay.
So I think this is the part wecan kind of talk about is
because, okay, the art of thesettlement and how it drives you
to stop a case and talk aboutBlack Lives Matter, like what is
it that stops the case?
Like why?
So?
Why 10 million?
What's?
Karen Koehler (08:03):
it seems arbitrary well, we talked about
that before yeah it was that theonly way that we would agree to
settle the case was if it was astatement of liability okay and
the, and we believed and weagreed that 10 was a statement
and in that has turned out to betrue.
There's a difference.
Mo Hamoudi (08:24):
I've told you before between 9, 9, 9, 9, 9.
Karen Koehler (08:26):
9, 9 and 10.
So 10 was that line in the sandnumber and they decided to pay
it.
And I was in the middle ofanother trial when this was
going on and I don't know ifI've ever talked about this
other than to the press they putin their settlement agreement
that we couldn't contact themedia until yeah, it was like
(08:51):
eight days or.
It was Well, it was like thenext week until this hour and it
wasn't very long and I agreedto it and I thought Ann Davison
wants to get.
She wants to because they'vewatched how I work and they're
going to like trump us.
So we had already even though Ididn't think the case was ever
(09:15):
going to settle had already beenworking on the press release
which we went.
Even though I was in trial inanother case, I took the lead on
drafting press release, whichwe went.
Even though I was in trial inanother case, I took the lead on
drafting that thing,illustrating it, creating the
whole package.
So it was ready to go and thenarranged with Cassie's help but,
trust me, I was a, you know,mastermind of this for all the
(09:36):
clients that could to come downto the courthouse in Lumhal and
for everyone to come down.
And so I literally finishedclosing argument, walked out the
door, down the hall and that'swhere the press conference was.
I remember that you were in thatpink jacket and it had to be
done because, guess what, likean hour before that happened,
the city had released a releasesaying we did this, but it
(09:59):
wasn't our, and you know we justdid it because you know this
was a, this was an economicsdecision and and I called bs on
it- no, you did more than thatwell I call that you.
Mo Hamoudi (10:10):
That was your punk speech I did.
I called them punks that was Icalled the famous punk speech.
Yeah, and you were in pink, Iwas crying at halftime.
Karen Koehler (10:17):
I was so angry I was, I was you were what are
the?
What is the word for?
You know, hangry is when you'rehungry and angry.
What is it when you're so angrythat you just lose it?
I mean intentionally, I allowmyself to just cry angry.
I was so furious, she wascrying.
Mo Hamoudi (10:34):
You were cranky.
Karen Koehler (10:35):
Well, it was cause.
You know, the protesters werethere and they were so lovely
and important.
They were such importantclients, their mission was so
worthy.
They're so eloquent.
They were there and they wereso lovely and important.
They were such importantclients, their mission was so
worthy.
They're so eloquent.
They were there to protect thefirst amendment.
The the ones, all of them, butyou know, especially the ones
that were there they could soeloquently say what they were
(10:55):
doing and why.
And it was never about the money, it was about making a
statement and doing this onbehalf of.
And here we are like, what gooddid it do?
I don't know.
History says it did somethinggood and it did something good
for them and it gave a mark, amarker of this is what the world
should be like.
And now we've, now we're goingbackwards.
But that is an example of again.
(11:20):
I mean I didn't have time to beupset about settling the case
because I was in trial onanother case and I had to deal
with this stupid press releasebattle that the city foisted on
us because they wanted to getout and give their statement.
But afterwards, yes, I mean, Istill feel the pain.
(11:44):
You know, you talk about, youfeel the pain on losing Um, you
feel the pain on not gettingenough, but I do feel the pain
that I never got to try manycases.
I feel the pain of it Not often, but maybe that's why I react
so poorly after this last one isbecause it's every time it
(12:07):
happens.
It's it's a cumulative effect.
Mo Hamoudi (12:09):
It's the trauma of having settled cases that I
wanted to try so bad becausejustice was on our side the pain
that I feel, and the pain thatI feel is the pain of not having
the opportunity to confront theother side with what they did
(12:36):
wrong and hold them accountablein a way in which I know this is
a little bit aggressive buthumiliates them.
Karen Koehler (12:47):
A public humiliation.
Mo Hamoudi (12:49):
That's my—I feel the same way.
Okay, all right.
Karen Koehler (12:51):
I feel the same way.
I wanted them to be exposed.
Mo Hamoudi (12:54):
And to have those witnesses on the stand and
slowly walk them through whatthey did and then ask them—.
Karen Koehler (13:02):
Inexcusable.
Mo Hamoudi (13:03):
Ask them a question what accountability, if any, do
you take for what happened?
Karen Koehler (13:07):
I'll never forget the one officer that just
shot the blast ball that hitone of our clients directly in
the chest, caused her heart tostop beating, and you know
you're supposed to only shootthose things, not to strike a
person.
And not only did he shoot it,but he just kept going on his
(13:29):
merry way.
He didn't wait to see where itlanded.
I mean it hit her right smack.
I mean the videos were justhorrible.
He violated all kinds ofprocedures and most of them are
still working for the policedepartment.
Mo Hamoudi (13:44):
I mean, the one I think of is the inquest hearing
that I just did in January andthe officer who was shot and
killed I was CF Aletogo.
He was on the stand and I askedhim a question and you know he
had the gun out and the gunpointed to the—I would see his
head and I said okay, so youhave the gun, right, that's in
(14:04):
your hand.
You're intentionally holdingthe gun, aren't you?
And I was like and then the gunjammed.
He pulled the trigger multipletimes.
So I slowed it down and I waslike so you were pulling the
trigger and when you did it, youwere intending to discharge a
bullet into his head.
(14:25):
And then I was like that wasn'tan accident, right?
And I was like walk me through,how slowly you did that?
Did you press it like this?
And I walked him through eachone and then I asked him I was
like what accountability do youtake for taking his life?
And they objected Wouldn't lethim answer the question.
Karen Koehler (14:46):
Because it was an inquest.
Mo Hamoudi (14:47):
Yeah, but you know I was like, do you take any
moral responsibility for whathappened?
And then they objected and shewouldn't let him answer.
But the jury at the end wantedthat answered.
Karen Koehler (15:00):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (15:01):
I think that, like that's the part of the trial I
miss is that you know and thisis Karen because I was a federal
public defender.
Karen Koehler (15:09):
There's many other selfish.
Okay, there's the high roadthat we've talked about, right?
No, I got to interrupt usbecause, we are so preachy in
high road.
Now I mean, let's be real.
Mo Hamoudi (15:21):
Okay, what's the real?
Karen Koehler (15:22):
Oh, come on.
Mo Hamoudi (15:23):
What are you talking about?
Karen Koehler (15:24):
It's the high point of what we do.
Mo Hamoudi (15:26):
It is the high point.
We can't play in our sandbox.
Karen Koehler (15:28):
They didn't let us play in our sandbox.
We wanted to throw sand andkick them in the face and do all
kinds of bad things, and theydeprived us of it, and so we are
very funky right now.
We wanted to do it, it was veryselfish.
Mike Todd (15:41):
You wanted to be able to I mean metaphorically you
wanted to be able to hit themand you didn't get to.
So now you're stomping aroundbecause you didn't get the
release.
Mo Hamoudi (15:50):
Okay, that's right.
I mean, okay, we wanted to playtetherball and they took the
tetherball away.
Okay, that's exactly right.
Karen Koehler (15:57):
We didn't want to play something as refined as
tetherball.
Mike Todd (16:00):
This was sock him, rock him, kick him.
No, this was punch him in theface.
That's exactly what you wantedto do.
Okay, that's right, look at him.
Mo Hamoudi (16:07):
He knows this is true.
So wait, this is rascal Mo.
Karen Koehler (16:11):
It is.
I wanted to be a rascal andruthless.
Mo Hamoudi (16:14):
I could be ruthless , but I think getting into the
sandbox is.
I also wanted to go in and playwith Karen in the sandbox.
Yes, because we have a lot offun, and the last trial we did
was the Summer Taylor trial.
Karen Koehler (16:33):
I think one of the highlights of the trial was
picking her up and then drivingto court and then driving her
home and not knowing how to getto her house and never knew how
to get back to my house.
The whole time I didn't knowhow to get to your house.
He drives like he's 95 yearsold.
Mo Hamoudi (16:44):
And literally we're sitting there and she's like
I'm like are we moving?
Karen Koehler (16:47):
Are we standing still?
Mike Todd (16:51):
Like can you please put your foot on the gas?
Yeah, that's me riding inanyone's car at any given time.
Mo Hamoudi (16:54):
Oh, my gosh and that picture I sent you, which
is her going.
Karen Koehler (16:57):
Which is cargo carrying which?
Mo Hamoudi (16:58):
is her going like this she's going, but that was
at the trial.
I think part of what I missedwas that you genuinely have a
good time trying a case withsomebody you enjoy trying a case
with, and I think that's alsowas.
Eh, that would have been afour-week party.
Karen Koehler (17:17):
Yeah, we were getting ready to.
I had said screw the Airbnb, wewere going to just go do it at
the hotel.
We had the calendar with thewitness names.
I mean all this stuff ishappening, the fun stuff that
comes at the end of the caseafter you've gone through
grueling months of depositionsand discovery, and there's like
I don't even know how manyattorneys are on all the cases
(17:39):
together there was probablyabout 15 attorneys against us
and we're just, you know, go, go, go, go and then it's over so
okay.
Mike Todd (17:47):
So one of the challenges I'm having right now,
it's like training for amarathon and it's canceled well,
and it's also you've gonethrough all the depositions
where they're little skirmishesyeah and you get I I I assume
you get frustrated whensomething happens in one of
those and you want to come backand go at them and then you
(18:08):
don't get to.
Karen Koehler (18:09):
I mean all the taunting that I do, because OK.
Mike Todd (18:13):
Yeah, no, you do.
Karen Koehler (18:15):
I taunt.
So I mean there was MuhammadAli and that kind of you know
Rocky, the Rocky film.
You know they're taunting,taunting.
That is not limited to thesports playing field.
Mike Todd (18:26):
No, it's not.
Karen Koehler (18:27):
I am a very good taunter and I will do it
sweetly.
Mo Hamoudi (18:32):
I'll move like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
You have no case?
Karen Koehler (18:36):
What is your case?
What is your damages case?
Oh, thank you for that witness.
I'm going to identify thatwitness as my own witness now.
Thank you very much.
Anything else, I mean, it'sjust a constant thing right,
which is very fun, and a lot ofgood defensors like engaging
with me in that and a lot of badones hate me for it.
But there's so much mind gamethat goes on when you're doing
(19:00):
something like this.
It is a sporting event in manyways.
It's physical, it's mental,it's all.
It's mental, it's allencompassing.
You're inside and you're out.
Everything that you're doing isfocused on that and then it's
(19:21):
gone.
Mo Hamoudi (19:21):
So one of the challenges is that now this sort
of spiciness is bleeding intoother cases.
Karen Koehler (19:23):
How do you?
Mo Hamoudi (19:24):
manage that.
I don't care, you don't care?
Well, what if the case doesn'treally need that?
And then this poor defenselawyer is like they all need it.
Why are you Now?
They know they all need it.
Karen Koehler (19:31):
Okay, they all need it.
I like that mantra.
You know, even when I'm rude,no offense to people here at the
office which I have been.
For people to know that, yeah,I can be a little bit of a brat.
Mo Hamoudi (19:44):
Yeah, yeah A lot.
Karen Koehler (19:45):
It reminds people like she didn't get where
she did just by being sweet andnice and trying to make
everybody happy.
Oh, she can throw a punch.
Oops, she just did.
I don't like it.
Mike Todd (19:56):
Exactly Stop.
Mo Hamoudi (20:00):
Just stop.
It's true.
It's true, yes, yes, you'reincorrigible.
Karen Koehler (20:05):
that is what you are.
Have I been mean to you?
Mo Hamoudi (20:07):
yeah, a little bit.
I mean, I mean, I could take it, I'm a big boy, but like yeah,
but like you know, because Iwant to do is get under your.
Karen Koehler (20:15):
I want to get into everybody's skin.
I just right now I'm so, I am,I am irascible, right now, okay,
you know what she does.
Mo Hamoudi (20:22):
I'm gonna give you an example.
We have another case coming upin September in federal court.
So the case is essentially anadmitted liability case and it's
just damages.
Karen Koehler (20:33):
Medical negligence.
Mo Hamoudi (20:34):
And then there's some liability on an issue
negligent infliction ofemotional distress.
But that aside, she says, well,this trial's coming up and I
don't really need anybody's help.
It gets better, I don't reallyneed anybody's help.
But you know, I'm gonna let youdo a witness.
(20:57):
And I was like, oh, you are.
I was like, well, thank you.
And then she's like but youcan't do damages, you don't know
damages, you don't know how toask for money.
Karen Koehler (21:06):
This is like what she's doing to me Wait,
wait.
He also said can I do opening?
I said no.
Mo Hamoudi (21:11):
And it's just like, but like.
So sometimes I'm hearing thisand then I'm going like he's
like you're wounding me.
I was like you are wounding me,you know.
And, by the way, mike, she didthis in the summer Taylor trial.
We're sitting there.
She's like I'm going to doVaudeer, I'm going to do Vaudeer
.
We got to get these with.
I was like, oh right, because Idon't know how to do Vaudeer.
(21:33):
What is that?
What is that process?
How do we do that?
How do we select or take jurorsoff?
And then she says, okay, youcan do Vaudeer, you can do
Vaudeer, you sure?
I was like okay.
And then I go in and I tossboth of the jurors we need to
toss in minutes.
And then she comes over to me,she writes a little note.
(21:55):
She goes okay, you can doVaudeer.
I mean, this is like a rollercoaster and we go through it
over and over and over again.
But it's sweet, I like it.
I'd say you're spicy, I don'ttake it personal, it's good.
Karen Koehler (22:11):
It's got all my bad qualities.
I change my mind constantlybecause I'm in trial.
And number two is my delegation.
I do delegate, but only after Itrust someone and I don't trust
you yet.
On money Damages, on damages, Idon't know how, yet on money
Damages On damages.
Mo Hamoudi (22:27):
I don't know how to ask for money, Mike.
Karen Koehler (22:29):
Well, it's not just asking, it's being
comfortable with it andunderstanding that it is not
money money like money money.
It is money in the context ofcompensation and honor and
dignity and respect.
Mo Hamoudi (22:41):
Yes, I understand that.
I know, I understand that.
You say you understand it.
Do you sense the tension rightnow?
Oh yeah, I mean talk about that, mike.
Do you sense this tension?
Karen Koehler (22:50):
And I don't apologize to anybody right now.
Mike Todd (22:52):
No, but I mean, I don't know what to say about any
of this.
There's a tension, I'm soaggressive I would say that to
the money thing, that that'sdifficult, it's hard to learn.
I think I don't.
I would have a lot ofdifficulty.
I have.
I've had trouble all throughoutmy life just getting my own
worth correct, but worth forother people would be even
(23:14):
harder, um, but I think that.
I think that this is a naturalprocess and I think, as long as
you recognize that it'shappening, and that Mo you
recognize that it's happening aswell to you, yes, I would say
(23:35):
you have been covering up a lotbetter, because you just crank
up the I'm so happy Mo as a mask.
Karen Koehler (23:43):
He gets more.
Mike Todd (23:47):
Because all week long you've been like hey how's?
Mo Hamoudi (23:51):
it going Wait we see you in a video on him.
Mike Todd (23:54):
You're like a little bouncing ball running around the
office.
That's a good point.
Karen Koehler (24:01):
Because he has his own energy and then he's
getting my energy thrown at him.
Mike Todd (24:04):
Oh yeah, he's reacting to your energy.
He's reacting to his own energy.
And then he's you know, he'sgetting my energy thrown at him.
Oh yeah, he's reacting to yourenergy.
He's reacting to his own energy.
That's a fair point.
Karen Koehler (24:10):
He's good at telling me that I'm hurting his
feelings.
Most tell me that I'm hurtingyour feelings.
Mo Hamoudi (24:14):
I just think you should be honest with people.
Yes there's nothing wrong withthat.
And then when I say that shegoes, yeah she recognizes what
she's doing, then she gets lessspicy.
Karen Koehler (24:24):
I mean, I'm also super impatient, like it's just
.
I just am irritable.
Mike Todd (24:30):
But that's all part of it.
It is.
I mean, that's just you tryingto shove it down inside and then
it's leaking out a little bit.
Karen Koehler (24:37):
I'm not trying to shove it down inside anymore.
It should be over by now.
I'm surprised that it's lastedthis long.
It's lasted over by now.
I'm surprised that it's lastedthis long.
Mike Todd (24:45):
It's lasted over a week, yeah, but it should be
over.
I think that was an intensecase.
Karen Koehler (24:48):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (24:49):
Even though it was short, I think there was a lot
to it and I think that caseslike that are tough.
Karen Koehler (24:58):
They're all encompassing.
Mike Todd (24:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that takes a lot out of you.
Karen Koehler (25:01):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (25:02):
And in this case it builds up a lot inside of you
which you didn't get to releasebecause it's over.
Karen Koehler (25:10):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (25:11):
It's over, it's over.
Karen Koehler (25:17):
And it's over.
Okay, that's good, is that it?
That was a good one.
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