July 1, 2025 • 26 mins
Episode 24: Sean Combs on Trial: Jury Out For Deliberation
As the jury deliberates in the explosive federal case against Sean “Diddy” Combs, attorneys Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi break down the charges, evidence, and legal strategies that make this trial a pivotal moment in shaping our understanding of consent, power, and accountability.
Behind the glamorous facade of celebrity parties lies something much more sinister. The defense characterizes it as a swinger lifestyle. Prosecutors describe it as systematic exploitation. Combs faces charges of racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking by force, fraud or coercion, and transportation to engage in prostitution. The evidence is damning. Surveillance footage shows violent abuse. Witnesses describe drug-fueled “freak-offs” lasting for days. Federal raids uncovered weapons, drugs, and thousands of bottles of lubricant.
Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi explore the concept of psychological coercion and how power dynamics can erase any real possibility of consent. When someone controls access to fame, money, and opportunity, even an invitation can feel like a threat. Add blackmail, physical abuse, and drugging to the mix, and the defense’s narrative of consensual activity falls apart.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Koehler (00:02):
Speaking of rappers.
Mo Hamoudi (00:04):
Sean Combs.
Did you know he's in trial,that they just gave the case to
the jury?
Karen Koehler (00:10):
Yes.
Mo Hamoudi (00:11):
Okay, so let's.
I want to just go over thecircumstances so people
understand.
So Sean Combs, also known asDiddy, is facing a federal
criminal trial in New York oncharges including racketeering,
conspiracy, sex trafficking byforce, fraud or coercion, and
transportation to engage inprostitution.
The trial began in May of 2025.
(00:31):
It is a high-profile case.
Here are the key circumstancesand elements the charges and
allegations.
On the racketeering conspiracythe prosecutors allege that
Combs led a criminal enterprisethat involved kidnapping,
drugging and coercing women intosexual activities, sometimes
using firearms or threats ofviolence.
Karen Koehler (00:52):
I thought that they dropped the kidnapping.
Mo Hamoudi (00:54):
Well, this is the allegations, Okay.
Sex trafficking the governmentclaims Combs forced or coerced
women, including his formergirlfriends, to participate in
drug-fueled sexual marathons,known as freak-offs, with male
sex workers.
Transportation for prostitutionCombs is accused of
transporting individuals acrossstate lines for the purposes of
(01:17):
engaging in prostitution.
The evidence presented therewas nearly 30 to 34 witnesses,
including former partners,employees, and they testified
about graphic and disturbingevents detailing coercion,
violence and cover-ups.
There's surveillance footagevideos, including one showing
Combs attacking hisex-girlfriend, cassie Ventura,
(01:38):
in a hotel hallway.
These were all shown to thejury.
Text messages anddocumentations.
Jurors reviewed messages andreceipts related to interstate
trips and the organizing ofsexual encounters.
And then there was a huge raidwhere the authorities found
drugs, weapons and about athousand bottles of baby oil and
lubricant, and they're sayingthat these were used for the
(02:01):
freak-offs.
Here's the defense's positionConsensual relationships.
The defense is arguing that allof the sexual activities were
consensual.
Basically, combs is a swingerwho lived a lifestyle involving
group sex and drug use, but notcriminal enterprise.
They acknowledge that hecommitted acts of domestic
(02:22):
violence, but emphasize thatthese are not the charges at
hand and that Combs was going tofight this.
And then they also kind ofattacked the prosecution, saying
that this case is reallymotivated by money, referencing
large civil settlementsinvolving key witnesses.
So they closed on Friday.
So they closed on Friday andthe prosecutor's closing was
(02:43):
that basically, sean Combs usedhis power, money and influence
to coerce and intimidate women,relying on a small army of
employees to carry out and coverup the crimes you talk about
witness tampering.
They highlighted his attemptsto influence in silence
(03:05):
Witnesses included, recordedphone calls and outreach to
former employees and they askedthem, they urged them to convict
.
The defense's closing was alittle bit different.
They say a swinging lifestyleis not a crime.
The defense maintained thatCombs was part of the consensual
swinger lifestyle and that theprosecution's interpretation
risked criminalizing suchbehavior for everyone.
I guess all swingers were there.
Lack of criminal enterpriseCombs' lawyer argued there was a
(03:30):
gaping lack of evidence thatthis was a criminal enterprise
and that the case was aboutmoney, not justice.
And they also acknowledged thatyou know Combs had some
personal failings about hisdomestic violence I mean he had
to and it's on the video butinsisted that these did not
amount to a crime.
If he's convicted he's going toface a minimum sentence of 15
years on a sex trafficking case.
Karen Koehler (03:51):
Okay, but stop reading and tell me what all
that meant.
Like can't you be a swinger andbe criminal at the same time?
Mo Hamoudi (04:00):
Can you be a swinger and a criminal?
Yes, yeah, so how is that a?
Karen Koehler (04:01):
defense Can you be a swinger and a criminal?
Yes, yeah, so how is that adefense?
Mo Hamoudi (04:05):
I think what he's trying to do is that he's trying
to show that his intent was notof criminal means but of
consensual means.
I mean these types of caseswhen you're talking about sex
trafficking.
Karen Koehler (04:17):
Can you be a criminal if you love someone
that you're abusing?
Mo Hamoudi (04:23):
Yes, absolutely.
Karen Koehler (04:23):
I don't understand the defense.
Mo Hamoudi (04:27):
I think that the defense is trying to say that
this was the party lifestyle,that everybody came into this
environment understanding whatthey were getting into.
And this is part and parcelwhat this lifestyle is.
And this is part and parcelwhat this lifestyle is Sex,
drugs and all of that stuff.
And now what he's saying isthat you have a group of people
(04:51):
who came forward saying they areunhappy with what happened in
these parties.
And he's saying the reasonthey're doing that is not
because of issues of consent,coercion or violence, it's
because they want money.
That's how I read Wood isdefense.
And to provide someunderstanding to the jury as to
what was happening at theseparties.
(05:11):
I mean he has to provide thejury understanding.
The ordinary juror is not in aswinging lifestyle with a
thousand bottles of baby oil, sohe's got to explain that to
them.
Karen Koehler (05:25):
What's your gut?
Mo Hamoudi (05:25):
say, is he going to be convicted or not?
I think he's going to beconvicted.
Why?
I think he's going to beconvicted because the testimony
of a couple of the witnessesabout coercion, which is
psychological coercion, is goingto drive the case within the
context of.
You have to understand.
Karen Koehler (05:43):
Can you have psychological coercion?
How is psychological coercioncriminal?
Mo Hamoudi (05:49):
Well, that's the way you would explain that.
I'll turn it to lay people.
Coercion in the psychologicalsense has to do about
relationships with people.
You have power over people.
You could psychologicallycoerce somebody by sheer fact
that you sit atop a firm, sheerfact that you have wealth and
(06:13):
power.
Now, you don't do that.
What he was doing is that hewas sitting atop of a recording
empire.
He was giving peopleopportunities to record music.
He was reaching out to peoplesaying come to me, I'm going to
make you a star.
That gives you power.
At that point there is like atotally disparate relationship
between you and the artist oryou and the person, and then you
(06:36):
use that power to create thisaura of like opportunity and a
future that is bright, and thenyou use that to have them have
sex with you.
That's coercion in thepsychological sense.
Karen Koehler (06:50):
Well, I mean, even if that wasn't enough for
people.
I think what I remember fromreading things lately is that he
was threatening to release sextapes of his partners if they
didn't do what he wanted that'sanother aspect that's direct
coercion that's direct coercion,yeah that's, that's blackmail
Mike Todd (07:14):
well, that's extortion, yeah, extortion.
Well.
And also you mentioned drugs,like can there be consent when
they're drugged?
Karen Koehler (07:22):
no, yeah, but what if they help procure the
drugs?
Mo Hamoudi (07:26):
It doesn't matter.
The thing is is like, a lot ofthe times like these are like
what I call like well, you drank.
The point is not that theperson consensually took drugs.
The point is is that the personhas lost their inhibitions to
be able to say I want to beintimate with you, and then
you're saying, oh, able to say Iwant to be intimate with you,
(07:46):
and then you're saying, oh,you've lost your inhibitions,
I'm going to push the boundariesof this relationship.
That's the confusion thatpeople like that's.
Karen Koehler (07:51):
That's what he was trying to do is conflate
these things I think he, I thinkhe's going to be convicted,
because the law if, even, if, if, if there were a consensual
swinging relationship, that'sthat is what that is.
Who are we to judge?
It's been around since thebeginning of time.
Mo Hamoudi (08:08):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (08:11):
However, there are certain lines and so in my
opinion and I have followed thisthe lines have been so breached
.
For example, I can understandif the former partners they, you
know they apparently called andgot the male prostitutes, they
(08:35):
arranged the different thingsbut and they participated in the
sex for the benefit of, youknow, the king god.
But the lines were crossed, forexample, when they were in pain
, when they were exhausted andhad to be given more drugs to
(08:55):
continue, when they had a uti,when they were on their period,
um, when there were indicia ofthey clearly didn't want to do
it, but they were still doing it.
When it's that clear to methere's something coercive about
it.
It's not that it's sex betweenconsenting adults anymore.
(09:18):
There is some force beinglevied on someone to do
something that they don't wantto do that is not just intimate
physically, but dangerous.
And they were doing it withprostitutes who were not wearing
condoms.
Mo Hamoudi (09:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So those like to me what thosedetails are.
I totally agree with what youjust said about those details.
What they reflect.
Where I like to focus on isthat before these events these
parties started, he sat down andhe started to think about it.
(09:58):
I'm going to have a party, I'mgoing to get all these people
here and I'm going to do thatbecause I can, because I have
the money and I have the powerTo me.
That's the problem.
That is, I'll be clear, that'sthe evil in the guy's mind, that
he sat and thought about itLike those circumstances came up
(10:22):
because he created the originalenvironment to allow this stuff
to happen.
He created the originalenvironment to allow this stuff
to happen.
And what you look in and yousee that surveillance video, the
way he beats Cassie, you seewho his character is.
That's what's going to kill him.
Because when people look atthat video, if they see you
(10:43):
capable of walking into ahallway of a hotel and beating a
person, a woman, I mean to meit's like you're a coward,
that's a coward's act and sothey're going to go in that
deliberation room and they'regoing to go.
That's a coward, that's an evilman and what he did to these
people is he has destroyed theirlives and he's blaming them
(11:07):
because they participated.
Karen Koehler (11:10):
It's nonsense so I I look at it, that I look at
it that he.
Obviously, you know he has anorigin issue.
He is a dark person who canonly get sexual gratification
(11:34):
out of debasing other people anddoing what he tells them to do.
When he tells them to do it howhe wants them to do it, he
needs a certain heightened levelof stimulation by dominating
other people and telling themwhat to do before he can get off
(11:58):
.
Couple that with a person of inhis fear, who's at the top of
the power chain, who has a lotof opportunity to figure out,
like how is this going to work?
And I don't know if Cassie wasthe first one, you know, we
(12:19):
don't know that but obviouslythis was a pattern that he
established of how to accomplishhis own sexual gratification.
That was pretty convoluted andhe couldn't do it on his own.
He needed to be the master ofhis fantasies, which were not
fantasies, they were real.
(12:40):
And so in order to effectuatethat, he had to use all of the
staff to orchestrate it, to flythis person in and this person
in to love, bomb this person, todo all this stuff.
It wasn't a small effort.
Mo Hamoudi (13:02):
No, it was an enterprise which is.
It was a criminal enterprise.
Karen Koehler (13:05):
I mean all those pieces that had to be done to
make that one night.
That was three nights and Idon't know what the makeup is of
female to male in that in thatjury.
But any female who's going tobe thinking of having nonstop
intercourse with multiple men,not for one day or two days, but
(13:29):
up to three days, for you notto think that there's some kind
of coercion involved wherethey're not even sleeping?
For how long did they say theyweren't sleeping For like a
couple days.
Right, he would use stimulantsto keep people awake, yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (13:47):
But this is why I believe he sat back and thought
about it this is what I keepgoing okay, but this is why I
believe that he thought aboutthis.
He thought about, like, if I'mgoing to throw a party like this
and there's going to be allthese people here, what am I
going to do if people get tired?
What am I going to do ifthey're incapable of performing?
Mike Todd (14:14):
I just think that the drugs just went along.
He was notorious for parties.
He had that white party thatall the celebrities wanted to go
to, so I think that that wasjust part and parcel of the
party lifestyle.
Karen Koehler (14:29):
I mean, the party lifestyle looks very
glamorous from the outside, butunderneath it, it's dark.
It's always been dark.
I mean I was a disco person andI love going and dancing to the
discos, but I mean there's allkinds of stuff going on in
discos.
Mike Todd (14:44):
Oh, and even I mean that's just continued now, of
course.
And discos, oh, and even I meanthat's just continued now I, of
course.
You know all the time that Ispent touring with rock bands.
You know there were drugseverywhere drugs and sex.
Karen Koehler (14:55):
I mean, it's as old as time.
What's different here is thelevel, the level of the, like
you said, the enterprise, thenthe, then the army of people
needed to make this happen.
I feel like another piece ofevidence that was to me
compelling was that he wouldhave his own staff clean it up.
(15:17):
He could have had the hotelstaff clean it up and pay for it
.
Mike Todd (15:23):
He had to make sure there was no evidence left,
correct.
Karen Koehler (15:27):
Because it was so abnormal.
Who has sex with baby oil onthe walls and on the furniture
and all over the floors andstuff?
If you had a blue light inthere I think it would be
horrendous.
Mike Todd (15:41):
I hope I never stay to one of those things you don't
want to.
Karen Koehler (15:45):
But the level of that's a lot of stuff.
Mike Todd (15:52):
It's not normal.
Karen Koehler (15:54):
I don't think any swinging lifestyle person is
worried that they are engagedin a criminal enterprise
compared to what we just sawhere.
Mo Hamoudi (16:01):
No.
Mike Todd (16:03):
This is a billionaire's enterprise.
This is like cult leader levelcontrol To me.
Mo Hamoudi (16:09):
I don't see much difference between this and like
a Jeffrey Epstein situation.
Oh yeah, and I think that thedifference is that if this
behavior was done in the lightof day by someone who didn't
have the power and money thatthis guy had, they would be a
registered sex offender, plainand simple.
(16:31):
And the reason these people getto get away with it is they
have money and power.
And to me that is the highlightof this case that a person like
him is now being called out andyou can't like say anything
because he can't now run behindhis money, he can't run behind
(16:56):
his power, and it took a lot ofguts for this prosecutor to
charge this case.
Karen Koehler (17:01):
I feel like the prosecutors have done a better
job than the defense lawyers.
Prosecutors have done a betterjob than the defense lawyers.
Again, from what I've read,because nothing's.
You know, the judge wouldn'tallow this, unfortunately, to be
televised because, boy, thatwould be a blockbuster.
Yeah.
But from what I've read, theand.
But honestly, how do you, howwould you defend a case like
(17:22):
this?
You know, the evidence justkeeps coming in and in and in,
like what's your storyline?
And it's moved around a littlebit.
So the defense lawyer has notbeen able, in my opinion, to
ever draft a compellingnarrative on this case.
This is not a case of just twoswingers.
Mo Hamoudi (17:42):
When you cannot draft a compelling narrative as
the defense, it's because whatyou're left with is is that an
acknowledgement ofresponsibility?
When you are like in a spaceand I know this from experience
when you're trying to put upsomething that's just not
carrying the day, it's becauseyou just need to come in and say
(18:02):
I did something horrible and Ineed to find a way to take
responsibility for what I did,not on my terms, but on the
terms of the people who I haveharmed.
Let me know those terms.
That's why he didn't testify.
That's why somebody doesn'ttestify.
Karen Koehler (18:22):
Look at the partners, so they present this,
just evidence after evidenceafter evidence, you know, the
prosecution, just all thisevidence.
And then the defense, inpicking at let's use cassie um
is text has, have her read textafter text after text of you
(18:44):
know her love and you know, and,oh, I can't wait to see you and
I'm really excited to do afreak off and I mean, what is
that strategy?
What does that do accomplish?
I mean, I get it, you're tryingto show that there's more
dimension to this and that it'svoluntary, but the jury knows
(19:07):
that you're avoiding thatvideotape.
I mean, don't you, when youpick at the periphery in a case
like this and you don't go rightto the heart of the issues,
which is the videotape?
Mike Todd (19:25):
Yeah, what happens when she disagrees with him?
Karen Koehler (19:32):
the videotape?
Yeah, what happens when shedisagrees with him?
Because they, to my knowledge,they didn't talk about the
videotape at all with her, orvery much at all, like they.
Just they wanted to focus onthis other stuff that they
wanted to focus on.
But the juries, when you don'taddress the elephant in the room
, yeah, yeah, that's always thenthe elephant's the biggest
thing in the room we know fromwe know from trying cases that
(19:52):
you have to get the worst pieceof evidence and talk about it in
opening statement.
You have to have a narrative forthat.
What that was not a lover'squarrel, that was a
brutalization of another person,seemingly for no reason, just
to get her back in the room.
I don't know what that was andit was covered up and he bought
(20:15):
him off like to ignore thatpiece of evidence or underplay
it and try to talk abouteverything else.
That is also how you lose acase.
You have to address that bad.
If you were a defense lawyerand you were a defense lawyer
you have that video.
(20:38):
What do you do about it?
Mo Hamoudi (20:39):
I would have played the video in my opening and I
would have said you're going tohear from my client testify
about this video that this daywas the worst decision in their
life.
But you don't judge people bytheir worst decision.
You have to get to know themand I would have him get up
there.
And if the defense is sayingthis was a party lifestyle that
(21:02):
got out of control, the defensecan't say that.
The lawyers can't say that he'sgot to get up there and tell
the story and talk about it andthe fact that he didn't so we
all know that a defendant shouldnever testify, except in
certain cases.
Karen Koehler (21:19):
What makes this that certain case?
Mo Hamoudi (21:20):
Because he doesn't have a rap sheet a mile long
with a bunch of convictions,because most of the times you
have these criminal trials, youhave somebody who's coming in
with criminal convictions, theytake the stand and their
convictions are then used toimpeach them.
In a case like this, if hisdefense because I take the
lawyer at his word what he saidin his opening and his closing
(21:44):
that this was a consensualswinging lifestyle and he feels
terrible about what happenedThen you have to put him on and
you have to tell him you've gotto talk to this jury.
This case rises and falls onyou.
You are the focus of this case,not the peripheral text
(22:04):
messages, Not this stuff.
Karen Koehler (22:07):
I don all know that this guy is very verbal.
He's a rapper, he can be.
Mike Todd (22:16):
And an actor.
Karen Koehler (22:17):
Yeah, he can talk, he could present, he could
have put himself on in his besthopeful light.
I don't know how he would haveshown up in cross-examination.
I mean that's the risk, right,isn't the?
Would have shown up incross-examination?
Mo Hamoudi (22:31):
I mean that's the risk.
Right Isn't the direct, it'sthe cross-examination.
Karen Koehler (22:36):
Well, the cross-examination of a person.
Mo Hamoudi (22:37):
But you can prepare them for cross.
You can prepare them for cross,but right now, if he were to
get up, he would get crossed.
Obviously they would put allthis stuff in front of him.
But all you have to do is, ifthat's truly what he feels that
he did not mean harm then itwill come across.
The reason why he's not takingthe stand and I agree, I'm not
(23:01):
representing him and I don'tknow I am going to use my
experience of years of givingadvice to people about taking
the stand, waving the fifth isthat that video captured a side
of him that the public did notknow and he saw that.
(23:23):
Now that's—he didn't know thatvideo was being recorded when he
acted that way.
So he's been outed and he hethat and he he did not have the
courage to get up and face that.
That's why I say it was acowardly act.
Now maybe I'm what I say can bedefined as a little sexist.
I'll acknowledge it by a manwho hits a woman is is a coward,
(23:45):
plain and simple.
I will say that the day I die,he's a coward and the jury is
now in that deliberation roomgoing.
He's a coward and he didn't getup on the stand, he's going
down, he's getting convicted,that's just what I feel.
Mike Todd (24:09):
What do you feel?
Well, I was going to say don'tyou think also I mean him
getting on the stand just withthat video if you were able to
get him riled up or angry, thatthat in itself would prove your
point.
Karen Koehler (24:25):
That's why they don't want him on there.
That that in itself would proveyour point.
That's why they didn't want himon there.
But his life is on the line interms of where he's going to be
spending it, and I think youhave your party line, which is I
loved him.
This is me.
Mike Todd (24:47):
This is us.
Karen Koehler (24:48):
Yeah, this is what we did.
I loved her.
I'm not perfect, yep, you know,and and don't try to deny it
that this happened, becauseobviously it happened.
Mo Hamoudi (24:59):
Just talk about love but morally he's not there.
He is not there.
That's why he didn't testify.
He's not there.
Karen Koehler (25:07):
He is not there.
That's why he didn't testify.
He's just not there.
I don't know.
Mo Hamoudi (25:09):
And maybe you know, in the seventh or eighth year
in federal prison he'll getthere.
Karen Koehler (25:14):
But the 15 years I mean A guy like that has to
come into this, thinking he'sinvincible.
Mo Hamoudi (25:19):
Huh.
Karen Koehler (25:20):
A guy like that has to come into a proceeding
like this, thinking he'sinvincible and thinking about OJ
Simpson like OJ got off okay.
Mo Hamoudi (25:28):
So back to the original point, is that I think
that when he's sitting there,it's not the axe, it's him
thinking about, thinking andimagining about this event he's
going to create and all of thesepeople are going to be there
doing these things for him.
He's not thinking about them,he's thinking about himself.
A complete lack of empathy,because if you're a person who's
(25:52):
like I'm going to throw a party, I have all this money, I'm a
famous person you would want tothrow a party.
Where you go, I hope everybodyenjoys themselves and has a good
time and feels safe andcelebrates what I'm doing making
beautiful music with people.
That's not what he was thinking.
That's the illness, that's likethe defect, and he's not
(26:15):
willing to confront that.
He is a narcissist, that all ofthis was about him and he
thinks it's about other people,and his lawyers are running out
there making it about all theseother people.
That's true.
That's a good point.
Karen Koehler (26:27):
All right.
Well, stay tuned, that's true.
That's a good point All right,well, stay tuned.
Let's see what the jury says.
Mo Hamoudi (26:31):
Let's see what the jury says.
Speaking of rappers.
Mo Hamoudi (00:04):
Sean Combs.
Did you know he's in trial,that they just gave the case to
the jury?
Karen Koehler (00:10):
Yes.
Mo Hamoudi (00:11):
Okay, so let's.
I want to just go over thecircumstances so people
understand.
So Sean Combs, also known asDiddy, is facing a federal
criminal trial in New York oncharges including racketeering,
conspiracy, sex trafficking byforce, fraud or coercion, and
transportation to engage inprostitution.
The trial began in May of 2025.
(00:31):
It is a high-profile case.
Here are the key circumstancesand elements the charges and
allegations.
On the racketeering conspiracythe prosecutors allege that
Combs led a criminal enterprisethat involved kidnapping,
drugging and coercing women intosexual activities, sometimes
using firearms or threats ofviolence.
Karen Koehler (00:52):
I thought that they dropped the kidnapping.
Mo Hamoudi (00:54):
Well, this is the allegations, Okay.
Sex trafficking the governmentclaims Combs forced or coerced
women, including his formergirlfriends, to participate in
drug-fueled sexual marathons,known as freak-offs, with male
sex workers.
Transportation for prostitutionCombs is accused of
transporting individuals acrossstate lines for the purposes of
(01:17):
engaging in prostitution.
The evidence presented therewas nearly 30 to 34 witnesses,
including former partners,employees, and they testified
about graphic and disturbingevents detailing coercion,
violence and cover-ups.
There's surveillance footagevideos, including one showing
Combs attacking hisex-girlfriend, cassie Ventura,
(01:38):
in a hotel hallway.
These were all shown to thejury.
Text messages anddocumentations.
Jurors reviewed messages andreceipts related to interstate
trips and the organizing ofsexual encounters.
And then there was a huge raidwhere the authorities found
drugs, weapons and about athousand bottles of baby oil and
lubricant, and they're sayingthat these were used for the
(02:01):
freak-offs.
Here's the defense's positionConsensual relationships.
The defense is arguing that allof the sexual activities were
consensual.
Basically, combs is a swingerwho lived a lifestyle involving
group sex and drug use, but notcriminal enterprise.
They acknowledge that hecommitted acts of domestic
(02:22):
violence, but emphasize thatthese are not the charges at
hand and that Combs was going tofight this.
And then they also kind ofattacked the prosecution, saying
that this case is reallymotivated by money, referencing
large civil settlementsinvolving key witnesses.
So they closed on Friday.
So they closed on Friday andthe prosecutor's closing was
(02:43):
that basically, sean Combs usedhis power, money and influence
to coerce and intimidate women,relying on a small army of
employees to carry out and coverup the crimes you talk about
witness tampering.
They highlighted his attemptsto influence in silence
(03:05):
Witnesses included, recordedphone calls and outreach to
former employees and they askedthem, they urged them to convict
.
The defense's closing was alittle bit different.
They say a swinging lifestyleis not a crime.
The defense maintained thatCombs was part of the consensual
swinger lifestyle and that theprosecution's interpretation
risked criminalizing suchbehavior for everyone.
I guess all swingers were there.
Lack of criminal enterpriseCombs' lawyer argued there was a
(03:30):
gaping lack of evidence thatthis was a criminal enterprise
and that the case was aboutmoney, not justice.
And they also acknowledged thatyou know Combs had some
personal failings about hisdomestic violence I mean he had
to and it's on the video butinsisted that these did not
amount to a crime.
If he's convicted he's going toface a minimum sentence of 15
years on a sex trafficking case.
Karen Koehler (03:51):
Okay, but stop reading and tell me what all
that meant.
Like can't you be a swinger andbe criminal at the same time?
Mo Hamoudi (04:00):
Can you be a swinger and a criminal?
Yes, yeah, so how is that a?
Karen Koehler (04:01):
defense Can you be a swinger and a criminal?
Yes, yeah, so how is that adefense?
Mo Hamoudi (04:05):
I think what he's trying to do is that he's trying
to show that his intent was notof criminal means but of
consensual means.
I mean these types of caseswhen you're talking about sex
trafficking.
Karen Koehler (04:17):
Can you be a criminal if you love someone
that you're abusing?
Mo Hamoudi (04:23):
Yes, absolutely.
Karen Koehler (04:23):
I don't understand the defense.
Mo Hamoudi (04:27):
I think that the defense is trying to say that
this was the party lifestyle,that everybody came into this
environment understanding whatthey were getting into.
And this is part and parcelwhat this lifestyle is.
And this is part and parcelwhat this lifestyle is Sex,
drugs and all of that stuff.
And now what he's saying isthat you have a group of people
(04:51):
who came forward saying they areunhappy with what happened in
these parties.
And he's saying the reasonthey're doing that is not
because of issues of consent,coercion or violence, it's
because they want money.
That's how I read Wood isdefense.
And to provide someunderstanding to the jury as to
what was happening at theseparties.
(05:11):
I mean he has to provide thejury understanding.
The ordinary juror is not in aswinging lifestyle with a
thousand bottles of baby oil, sohe's got to explain that to
them.
Karen Koehler (05:25):
What's your gut?
Mo Hamoudi (05:25):
say, is he going to be convicted or not?
I think he's going to beconvicted.
Why?
I think he's going to beconvicted because the testimony
of a couple of the witnessesabout coercion, which is
psychological coercion, is goingto drive the case within the
context of.
You have to understand.
Karen Koehler (05:43):
Can you have psychological coercion?
How is psychological coercioncriminal?
Mo Hamoudi (05:49):
Well, that's the way you would explain that.
I'll turn it to lay people.
Coercion in the psychologicalsense has to do about
relationships with people.
You have power over people.
You could psychologicallycoerce somebody by sheer fact
that you sit atop a firm, sheerfact that you have wealth and
(06:13):
power.
Now, you don't do that.
What he was doing is that hewas sitting atop of a recording
empire.
He was giving peopleopportunities to record music.
He was reaching out to peoplesaying come to me, I'm going to
make you a star.
That gives you power.
At that point there is like atotally disparate relationship
between you and the artist oryou and the person, and then you
(06:36):
use that power to create thisaura of like opportunity and a
future that is bright, and thenyou use that to have them have
sex with you.
That's coercion in thepsychological sense.
Karen Koehler (06:50):
Well, I mean, even if that wasn't enough for
people.
I think what I remember fromreading things lately is that he
was threatening to release sextapes of his partners if they
didn't do what he wanted that'sanother aspect that's direct
coercion that's direct coercion,yeah that's, that's blackmail
Mike Todd (07:14):
well, that's extortion, yeah, extortion.
Well.
And also you mentioned drugs,like can there be consent when
they're drugged?
Karen Koehler (07:22):
no, yeah, but what if they help procure the
drugs?
Mo Hamoudi (07:26):
It doesn't matter.
The thing is is like, a lot ofthe times like these are like
what I call like well, you drank.
The point is not that theperson consensually took drugs.
The point is is that the personhas lost their inhibitions to
be able to say I want to beintimate with you, and then
you're saying, oh, able to say Iwant to be intimate with you,
(07:46):
and then you're saying, oh,you've lost your inhibitions,
I'm going to push the boundariesof this relationship.
That's the confusion thatpeople like that's.
Karen Koehler (07:51):
That's what he was trying to do is conflate
these things I think he, I thinkhe's going to be convicted,
because the law if, even, if, if, if there were a consensual
swinging relationship, that'sthat is what that is.
Who are we to judge?
It's been around since thebeginning of time.
Mo Hamoudi (08:08):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (08:11):
However, there are certain lines and so in my
opinion and I have followed thisthe lines have been so breached
.
For example, I can understandif the former partners they, you
know they apparently called andgot the male prostitutes, they
(08:35):
arranged the different thingsbut and they participated in the
sex for the benefit of, youknow, the king god.
But the lines were crossed, forexample, when they were in pain
, when they were exhausted andhad to be given more drugs to
(08:55):
continue, when they had a uti,when they were on their period,
um, when there were indicia ofthey clearly didn't want to do
it, but they were still doing it.
When it's that clear to methere's something coercive about
it.
It's not that it's sex betweenconsenting adults anymore.
(09:18):
There is some force beinglevied on someone to do
something that they don't wantto do that is not just intimate
physically, but dangerous.
And they were doing it withprostitutes who were not wearing
condoms.
Mo Hamoudi (09:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So those like to me what thosedetails are.
I totally agree with what youjust said about those details.
What they reflect.
Where I like to focus on isthat before these events these
parties started, he sat down andhe started to think about it.
(09:58):
I'm going to have a party, I'mgoing to get all these people
here and I'm going to do thatbecause I can, because I have
the money and I have the powerTo me.
That's the problem.
That is, I'll be clear, that'sthe evil in the guy's mind, that
he sat and thought about itLike those circumstances came up
(10:22):
because he created the originalenvironment to allow this stuff
to happen.
He created the originalenvironment to allow this stuff
to happen.
And what you look in and yousee that surveillance video, the
way he beats Cassie, you seewho his character is.
That's what's going to kill him.
Because when people look atthat video, if they see you
(10:43):
capable of walking into ahallway of a hotel and beating a
person, a woman, I mean to meit's like you're a coward,
that's a coward's act and sothey're going to go in that
deliberation room and they'regoing to go.
That's a coward, that's an evilman and what he did to these
people is he has destroyed theirlives and he's blaming them
(11:07):
because they participated.
Karen Koehler (11:10):
It's nonsense so I I look at it, that I look at
it that he.
Obviously, you know he has anorigin issue.
He is a dark person who canonly get sexual gratification
(11:34):
out of debasing other people anddoing what he tells them to do.
When he tells them to do it howhe wants them to do it, he
needs a certain heightened levelof stimulation by dominating
other people and telling themwhat to do before he can get off
(11:58):
.
Couple that with a person of inhis fear, who's at the top of
the power chain, who has a lotof opportunity to figure out,
like how is this going to work?
And I don't know if Cassie wasthe first one, you know, we
(12:19):
don't know that but obviouslythis was a pattern that he
established of how to accomplishhis own sexual gratification.
That was pretty convoluted andhe couldn't do it on his own.
He needed to be the master ofhis fantasies, which were not
fantasies, they were real.
(12:40):
And so in order to effectuatethat, he had to use all of the
staff to orchestrate it, to flythis person in and this person
in to love, bomb this person, todo all this stuff.
It wasn't a small effort.
Mo Hamoudi (13:02):
No, it was an enterprise which is.
It was a criminal enterprise.
Karen Koehler (13:05):
I mean all those pieces that had to be done to
make that one night.
That was three nights and Idon't know what the makeup is of
female to male in that in thatjury.
But any female who's going tobe thinking of having nonstop
intercourse with multiple men,not for one day or two days, but
(13:29):
up to three days, for you notto think that there's some kind
of coercion involved wherethey're not even sleeping?
For how long did they say theyweren't sleeping For like a
couple days.
Right, he would use stimulantsto keep people awake, yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (13:47):
But this is why I believe he sat back and thought
about it this is what I keepgoing okay, but this is why I
believe that he thought aboutthis.
He thought about, like, if I'mgoing to throw a party like this
and there's going to be allthese people here, what am I
going to do if people get tired?
What am I going to do ifthey're incapable of performing?
Mike Todd (14:14):
I just think that the drugs just went along.
He was notorious for parties.
He had that white party thatall the celebrities wanted to go
to, so I think that that wasjust part and parcel of the
party lifestyle.
Karen Koehler (14:29):
I mean, the party lifestyle looks very
glamorous from the outside, butunderneath it, it's dark.
It's always been dark.
I mean I was a disco person andI love going and dancing to the
discos, but I mean there's allkinds of stuff going on in
discos.
Mike Todd (14:44):
Oh, and even I mean that's just continued now, of
course.
And discos, oh, and even I meanthat's just continued now I, of
course.
You know all the time that Ispent touring with rock bands.
You know there were drugseverywhere drugs and sex.
Karen Koehler (14:55):
I mean, it's as old as time.
What's different here is thelevel, the level of the, like
you said, the enterprise, thenthe, then the army of people
needed to make this happen.
I feel like another piece ofevidence that was to me
compelling was that he wouldhave his own staff clean it up.
(15:17):
He could have had the hotelstaff clean it up and pay for it
.
Mike Todd (15:23):
He had to make sure there was no evidence left,
correct.
Karen Koehler (15:27):
Because it was so abnormal.
Who has sex with baby oil onthe walls and on the furniture
and all over the floors andstuff?
If you had a blue light inthere I think it would be
horrendous.
Mike Todd (15:41):
I hope I never stay to one of those things you don't
want to.
Karen Koehler (15:45):
But the level of that's a lot of stuff.
Mike Todd (15:52):
It's not normal.
Karen Koehler (15:54):
I don't think any swinging lifestyle person is
worried that they are engagedin a criminal enterprise
compared to what we just sawhere.
Mo Hamoudi (16:01):
No.
Mike Todd (16:03):
This is a billionaire's enterprise.
This is like cult leader levelcontrol To me.
Mo Hamoudi (16:09):
I don't see much difference between this and like
a Jeffrey Epstein situation.
Oh yeah, and I think that thedifference is that if this
behavior was done in the lightof day by someone who didn't
have the power and money thatthis guy had, they would be a
registered sex offender, plainand simple.
(16:31):
And the reason these people getto get away with it is they
have money and power.
And to me that is the highlightof this case that a person like
him is now being called out andyou can't like say anything
because he can't now run behindhis money, he can't run behind
(16:56):
his power, and it took a lot ofguts for this prosecutor to
charge this case.
Karen Koehler (17:01):
I feel like the prosecutors have done a better
job than the defense lawyers.
Prosecutors have done a betterjob than the defense lawyers.
Again, from what I've read,because nothing's.
You know, the judge wouldn'tallow this, unfortunately, to be
televised because, boy, thatwould be a blockbuster.
Yeah.
But from what I've read, theand.
But honestly, how do you, howwould you defend a case like
(17:22):
this?
You know, the evidence justkeeps coming in and in and in,
like what's your storyline?
And it's moved around a littlebit.
So the defense lawyer has notbeen able, in my opinion, to
ever draft a compellingnarrative on this case.
This is not a case of just twoswingers.
Mo Hamoudi (17:42):
When you cannot draft a compelling narrative as
the defense, it's because whatyou're left with is is that an
acknowledgement ofresponsibility?
When you are like in a spaceand I know this from experience
when you're trying to put upsomething that's just not
carrying the day, it's becauseyou just need to come in and say
(18:02):
I did something horrible and Ineed to find a way to take
responsibility for what I did,not on my terms, but on the
terms of the people who I haveharmed.
Let me know those terms.
That's why he didn't testify.
That's why somebody doesn'ttestify.
Karen Koehler (18:22):
Look at the partners, so they present this,
just evidence after evidenceafter evidence, you know, the
prosecution, just all thisevidence.
And then the defense, inpicking at let's use cassie um
is text has, have her read textafter text after text of you
(18:44):
know her love and you know, and,oh, I can't wait to see you and
I'm really excited to do afreak off and I mean, what is
that strategy?
What does that do accomplish?
I mean, I get it, you're tryingto show that there's more
dimension to this and that it'svoluntary, but the jury knows
(19:07):
that you're avoiding thatvideotape.
I mean, don't you, when youpick at the periphery in a case
like this and you don't go rightto the heart of the issues,
which is the videotape?
Mike Todd (19:25):
Yeah, what happens when she disagrees with him?
Karen Koehler (19:32):
the videotape?
Yeah, what happens when shedisagrees with him?
Because they, to my knowledge,they didn't talk about the
videotape at all with her, orvery much at all, like they.
Just they wanted to focus onthis other stuff that they
wanted to focus on.
But the juries, when you don'taddress the elephant in the room
, yeah, yeah, that's always thenthe elephant's the biggest
thing in the room we know fromwe know from trying cases that
(19:52):
you have to get the worst pieceof evidence and talk about it in
opening statement.
You have to have a narrative forthat.
What that was not a lover'squarrel, that was a
brutalization of another person,seemingly for no reason, just
to get her back in the room.
I don't know what that was andit was covered up and he bought
(20:15):
him off like to ignore thatpiece of evidence or underplay
it and try to talk abouteverything else.
That is also how you lose acase.
You have to address that bad.
If you were a defense lawyerand you were a defense lawyer
you have that video.
(20:38):
What do you do about it?
Mo Hamoudi (20:39):
I would have played the video in my opening and I
would have said you're going tohear from my client testify
about this video that this daywas the worst decision in their
life.
But you don't judge people bytheir worst decision.
You have to get to know themand I would have him get up
there.
And if the defense is sayingthis was a party lifestyle that
(21:02):
got out of control, the defensecan't say that.
The lawyers can't say that he'sgot to get up there and tell
the story and talk about it andthe fact that he didn't so we
all know that a defendant shouldnever testify, except in
certain cases.
Karen Koehler (21:19):
What makes this that certain case?
Mo Hamoudi (21:20):
Because he doesn't have a rap sheet a mile long
with a bunch of convictions,because most of the times you
have these criminal trials, youhave somebody who's coming in
with criminal convictions, theytake the stand and their
convictions are then used toimpeach them.
In a case like this, if hisdefense because I take the
lawyer at his word what he saidin his opening and his closing
(21:44):
that this was a consensualswinging lifestyle and he feels
terrible about what happenedThen you have to put him on and
you have to tell him you've gotto talk to this jury.
This case rises and falls onyou.
You are the focus of this case,not the peripheral text
(22:04):
messages, Not this stuff.
Karen Koehler (22:07):
I don all know that this guy is very verbal.
He's a rapper, he can be.
Mike Todd (22:16):
And an actor.
Karen Koehler (22:17):
Yeah, he can talk, he could present, he could
have put himself on in his besthopeful light.
I don't know how he would haveshown up in cross-examination.
I mean that's the risk, right,isn't the?
Would have shown up incross-examination?
Mo Hamoudi (22:31):
I mean that's the risk.
Right Isn't the direct, it'sthe cross-examination.
Karen Koehler (22:36):
Well, the cross-examination of a person.
Mo Hamoudi (22:37):
But you can prepare them for cross.
You can prepare them for cross,but right now, if he were to
get up, he would get crossed.
Obviously they would put allthis stuff in front of him.
But all you have to do is, ifthat's truly what he feels that
he did not mean harm then itwill come across.
The reason why he's not takingthe stand and I agree, I'm not
(23:01):
representing him and I don'tknow I am going to use my
experience of years of givingadvice to people about taking
the stand, waving the fifth isthat that video captured a side
of him that the public did notknow and he saw that.
(23:23):
Now that's—he didn't know thatvideo was being recorded when he
acted that way.
So he's been outed and he hethat and he he did not have the
courage to get up and face that.
That's why I say it was acowardly act.
Now maybe I'm what I say can bedefined as a little sexist.
I'll acknowledge it by a manwho hits a woman is is a coward,
(23:45):
plain and simple.
I will say that the day I die,he's a coward and the jury is
now in that deliberation roomgoing.
He's a coward and he didn't getup on the stand, he's going
down, he's getting convicted,that's just what I feel.
Mike Todd (24:09):
What do you feel?
Well, I was going to say don'tyou think also I mean him
getting on the stand just withthat video if you were able to
get him riled up or angry, thatthat in itself would prove your
point.
Karen Koehler (24:25):
That's why they don't want him on there.
That that in itself would proveyour point.
That's why they didn't want himon there.
But his life is on the line interms of where he's going to be
spending it, and I think youhave your party line, which is I
loved him.
This is me.
Mike Todd (24:47):
This is us.
Karen Koehler (24:48):
Yeah, this is what we did.
I loved her.
I'm not perfect, yep, you know,and and don't try to deny it
that this happened, becauseobviously it happened.
Mo Hamoudi (24:59):
Just talk about love but morally he's not there.
He is not there.
That's why he didn't testify.
He's not there.
Karen Koehler (25:07):
He is not there.
That's why he didn't testify.
He's just not there.
I don't know.
Mo Hamoudi (25:09):
And maybe you know, in the seventh or eighth year
in federal prison he'll getthere.
Karen Koehler (25:14):
But the 15 years I mean A guy like that has to
come into this, thinking he'sinvincible.
Mo Hamoudi (25:19):
Huh.
Karen Koehler (25:20):
A guy like that has to come into a proceeding
like this, thinking he'sinvincible and thinking about OJ
Simpson like OJ got off okay.
Mo Hamoudi (25:28):
So back to the original point, is that I think
that when he's sitting there,it's not the axe, it's him
thinking about, thinking andimagining about this event he's
going to create and all of thesepeople are going to be there
doing these things for him.
He's not thinking about them,he's thinking about himself.
A complete lack of empathy,because if you're a person who's
(25:52):
like I'm going to throw a party, I have all this money, I'm a
famous person you would want tothrow a party.
Where you go, I hope everybodyenjoys themselves and has a good
time and feels safe andcelebrates what I'm doing making
beautiful music with people.
That's not what he was thinking.
That's the illness, that's likethe defect, and he's not
(26:15):
willing to confront that.
He is a narcissist, that all ofthis was about him and he
thinks it's about other people,and his lawyers are running out
there making it about all theseother people.
That's true.
That's a good point.
Karen Koehler (26:27):
All right.
Well, stay tuned, that's true.
That's a good point All right,well, stay tuned.
Let's see what the jury says.
Mo Hamoudi (26:31):
Let's see what the jury says.
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