June 11, 2025 • 38 mins
Episode 21: The Archetypes That Drive Us in Life and Law
Have you ever noticed how you show up differently depending on the room you're in? In this episode, Karen, Mo, and Mike explore the inner archetypes that shape our thoughts, work, and connections, particularly in the world of trial law.
Karen reflects on her transformation from Disco Karen to Martha Stewart Karen to Trial Karen, each persona tied to survival, tradition, love, and strength. Mo breaks down the different aspects of himself, from Little Mo to Ruthless Mo to Wise Mo, explaining how trauma has shaped these versions and how naming them has given him clarity and control. Mike shares how making music helps him access his most authentic self, the version where everything else falls away.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Koehler (00:00):
All right, I thought today that we would talk
about how many Mo's are in you,how many Karen's are in me, how
many Mark's are in you thedifferent aspects of our
personality.
Mo Hamoudi (00:10):
Archetypes, archetypes.
That is what I've been taughtrecently they are as our
archetypes.
Karen Koehler (00:17):
Do you want to go first?
Why don't you go first?
Mo Hamoudi (00:19):
No, you go first.
Okay, well, let me hear you.
Karen Koehler (00:21):
So you know, you hear, especially in the office.
You know we've been talkingabout you don't celebrate enough
, and this and that.
Mo Hamoudi (00:29):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (00:30):
And people also kind of talk about oh well, I'm
an introvert or I'm an extrovert.
Mo Hamoudi (00:35):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Karen Koehler (00:36):
Which is such an oversimplification of who we
are.
I mean all these labels, or wetake these personality tests and
you know, I'm strategic, I'mthis, I'm that or I'm not, and
that's supposed to define youtoo.
That's supposed to define us,but what I've come to see is
that we all have differentpeople in us, personas for
(00:58):
different occasions, and Ithought we would start talking
about it.
So I'm going to tell you astory.
Mo Hamoudi (01:03):
Tell me a story.
Karen Koehler (01:05):
So I'm going to tell you a story.
Tell me a story.
So I was a married person atone time in my life.
Mo Hamoudi (01:08):
You Married no.
Karen Koehler (01:11):
If you can even imagine.
Mo Hamoudi (01:12):
I cannot imagine I was.
Karen Koehler (01:15):
And I was a good little wife.
Mo Hamoudi (01:17):
I had a very Did you just say good, little wife.
Karen Koehler (01:20):
I had a very A dominant spouse and I was the
one that kept the peace.
So I was.
I mean, if you want to talkabout a whole, totally different
person, you would not haverecognized me.
But I digress.
So I remember we were at adinner.
It was a large dinner.
It was mainly you know, hisfriends were my friends, like I
(01:42):
just kind of adopt all of hisfriends.
You know, when you're marriedyou kind of yeah.
So there was probably I don'tknow five, six, seven couples
around a table.
Mo Hamoudi (01:52):
Right.
Karen Koehler (01:53):
And I'd known most of them for a couple of
years.
Yeah, some better than others.
And midway through the mealsomebody said something, and one
of the people I still rememberhis name David Hughes.
Okay, he was, uh, he wasHawaiian and he used to.
He had a short career with theSeahawks, I think.
Um, this is way back, and hecould kind of he said out of the
(02:20):
blue, said you're a lawyer.
He was literally stunnedbecause I didn't act like a
lawyer, I just act like a sweetlittle.
Mo Hamoudi (02:31):
Sweet little.
Karen Koehler (02:32):
Sweet little person, and so that got me
thinking this morning.
You know, when you ruminateabout weird stuff that pops into
your head, about the differentaspects of a personality.
Mo Hamoudi (02:46):
Okay, so what aspect of the personality was
that?
Karen Koehler (02:48):
Well, like, okay , that was one that I've put
away.
That was my Martha Stewartphase of life, which I just gave
after I was married.
I never looked at MarthaStewart again.
Mo Hamoudi (02:58):
Okay, can I ask some questions about Martha
Stewart Karen?
Karen Koehler (03:03):
Well, let me tell you about my favorite one
was before that, before I gotmarried, it was Disco Cairn.
Mo Hamoudi (03:08):
Okay, Disco Cairn.
Karen Koehler (03:09):
Okay, which was a completely different person
than Martha Stewart Cairn.
I used to say that I was achameleon because I could be so
many different things to so manydifferent people.
I still have that ability, andI don't even know why that is.
What is that about a personthat you can do that?
But in the office, I am serious, karen.
Mo Hamoudi (03:31):
Serious Karen.
Karen Koehler (03:31):
I am, I'm pretty intense.
Mo Hamoudi (03:33):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (03:33):
And I just kind of work a lot.
Mo Hamoudi (03:36):
I know.
Karen Koehler (03:37):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (03:38):
Inaccessible.
Karen Koehler (03:42):
You just sit in your office.
That's not true, I walk around.
Sometimes.
But I can be daunting and Idon't even see that about myself
yes yeah, so these are some ofthe little.
Tell me more, what else?
Mo Hamoudi (03:55):
well, what I want to know is how did disco karen
become martha stewart karen well, that was called the horrible
institution of marriage okay,the institution of marriage.
Karen Koehler (04:03):
I was also you also in my very early 20s and I
probably I'm glad that I gotmarried because I had three
children that I love.
But in retrospect, why do weget married?
This is going to take us on awhole other topic.
Why do we make the decisionsthat we do?
Mo Hamoudi (04:20):
I just read an article that was fantastic about
the institution of marriage isthat the primary driving force
of the institution of marriagewas economics, was that people
needed to be provided for.
And then that dynamic starts toradically change when women
find empowerment throughemployment and success.
And then that's why women arelike I don't really need to get
(04:44):
married.
I mean, in a lot of waysthey're like why do I need to
get married?
Because you know the incentivesare not there.
The external incentives are notthere.
My question is did Disco Karenbecome Martha Stewart Karen
because she wanted a guy to takecare of her?
Karen Koehler (04:58):
I know, Okay then why that was completely not
it.
I think it's more complicatedthan that, then what is that?
Mo Hamoudi (05:08):
I mean, I don't want to have that conversation
here.
Okay, that's not fair.
We talk about.
Okay, that's not fair.
Karen Koehler (05:12):
Mike, she says, okay, this is so off topic we're
supposed to talk about thepeople inside of us.
Mo Hamoudi (05:17):
That's the inside of you.
I will tell you.
Karen Koehler (05:19):
Okay, I will tell you.
I've never, ever exactlyfigured out exactly 100% why,
but I have many suspicions.
Mo Hamoudi (05:27):
Okay, let's hear them.
Karen Koehler (05:28):
Number one I do think that there was a
traditional you know there weretraditional bones in my body
about, like I guess that's whatyou're supposed to do when you
reach a certain age.
Yeah, and you know, I was inlove, he was in love, okay, love
tradition.
Love so.
Mo Hamoudi (05:46):
And young.
I mean you said you were pretty.
Mike Todd (05:49):
That's six years younger than when I got married.
Karen Koehler (05:52):
Youthful energy tradition and he was very
traditional, which was always.
You know, I wasn't really sureabout that, but I was willing to
do that and that's the questionI've never really been sure
about because I am nottraditional in so many other
ways.
I think it was because of mylife experience up to them and
(06:15):
my life experience.
So this was in the early 80s.
As you know, in the 80s, early80s, mid-80s, aids had just been
.
Aids was a raging epidemic and,like you didn't, you know, I
think there was safety inmarriage from that okay, that's
interesting you know, I thinkthat I perceived safety, not
(06:38):
perceived yeah perceived safety.
Mike Todd (06:40):
That's right.
Karen Koehler (06:41):
Mike, I mean, you know, I don't know exactly
why no?
Mo Hamoudi (06:48):
you've identified some qualities.
Karen Koehler (06:49):
These are some of the reasons.
I think that, probably in theback of my head, I thought well,
you know, they always say thatwomen marry for biology.
Like, okay, well, would I havechildren?
Okay, well, well with thisperson.
And I guess you know that'sanother issue can I put out a
(07:11):
potential suggestion?
Mo Hamoudi (07:12):
yeah how about just wanting to be with somebody,
okay, who sees you for who youare?
Karen Koehler (07:20):
and being with don't know that they ever saw me
for who I was.
Mo Hamoudi (07:25):
I'm not saying.
I'm saying that maybe that wasultimately the outcome.
Understanding.
But at the first instant whenyou go into a relationship and
say I want to be with you forthe rest of my life, what you're
doing is saying that I want tobe your partner in life and I
want you to see me for who I am,and you want them to see you
(07:47):
for who you are.
Karen Koehler (07:48):
I was not that evolved.
Mo Hamoudi (07:49):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (07:51):
And what I remember is that when we went
and got married I mean we hadthe marriage ceremony as soon as
it was over I wanted to go backto my parents' home.
I did not want to go.
Mo Hamoudi (08:10):
You didn't want to hang out with them.
Karen Koehler (08:12):
I remember feeling like I want that's when
I freaked out Like he freakedout before we got married, like
oh, not freaked out, but youknow he was a little nervous
beforehand.
I was never nervous until rightwhen I got married.
Then I was like oh, oh crap.
Mike Todd (08:30):
What did I?
Karen Koehler (08:31):
do.
I'm here and I wanted to bethere, but I also kind of wanted
to like go back to my, mymommy's and daddy's house.
It was a weird thing.
I told him about it.
Mo Hamoudi (08:44):
So it wasn't Romeo Romeo.
Wherefore art thou Romeo?
There wasn't the romance.
Karen Koehler (08:49):
No, there was Romeo.
Mo Hamoudi (08:50):
Romeo.
Karen Koehler (08:51):
Okay, that's why I'm saying like this is weird,
this is I told you you weregoing to take us completely off
topic.
Mo Hamoudi (08:57):
I didn't.
We're talking about thepersonality of Disco Karen
turning into Martha Stewart.
Karen.
Karen Koehler (09:02):
And what?
Mo Hamoudi (09:02):
you've described to me.
What you've described to metell me if I'm wrong is that
there are a variety of externalfactors culture, times and
wanting to do what you believedwas correct in the context of
where you were in your life thatdrove you towards this
particular direction, plusromance, and I think that that's
(09:25):
.
Karen Koehler (09:26):
I also had an unhealthy ability to make myself
into what I thought the otherperson wanted.
Mo Hamoudi (09:34):
That's interesting.
Karen Koehler (09:35):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (09:37):
Don't you think, though I mean to get back on
topic a little bit.
Karen Koehler (09:41):
You've had a very successful marriage.
Mike Todd (09:43):
Well, it hasn't been easy.
I'd say that I mean it's bothfor her and for me.
Karen Koehler (09:48):
Yeah, but I think that that's.
You guys have been married forwhat?
30 years, 30 years, yeah.
Mike Todd (09:53):
Well, it'll be 30 years in August.
Karen Koehler (09:56):
You better do something nice.
Mike Todd (09:57):
We're going to.
Karen Koehler (09:58):
Amsterdam.
Mike Todd (10:00):
Oh nice.
But to get back on topic, don'tyou think that your other
personalities come out at timeswhen they're needed?
Yes, when it's like you said,after your wedding, you sort of
regressed into what you were ina younger person, where, when
(10:24):
you're in trial against a firmthat's working for a giant
corporation, you're going toturn into someone else.
You're going to turn intosomeone else who's got some
armor and might be a little bitmore forceful than another part
of yourself.
Karen Koehler (10:44):
I have always been a very good advocate for
others and not for myself.
That's something that's verycommon.
But trial Karen is completelyher own being.
That's the performative part iscompletely her own being.
That's the performative part.
I've always said the mostrelated people that I've talked
(11:07):
to are like actors, and it's notthat I'm acting, but we are
literally up there giving aperformance of life.
Well, it is a performance.
Mike Todd (11:18):
Yeah, you know, speaking in front of a jury is
very much a performance.
I think, and that's one of thereasons why you know, when you
see younger attorneys they'renot often ready for that,
because they were kind of taughtto be that prototypical lawyer.
Karen Koehler (11:34):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (11:34):
And they need to work into their persona.
Karen Koehler (11:39):
Yeah, yeah, and normally see how pleasant I am
You're very pleasant Well I tooka deposition last week of an
expert.
It lasted 21 minutes.
Mo Hamoudi (11:50):
And it wasn't pleasant.
Karen Koehler (11:51):
I was horrible the whole time.
Mike Todd (11:53):
As you talk about that, can you quickly explain
the difference between deposingan expert and a layperson?
Karen Koehler (12:00):
Yeah, like this guy had been hired about 2,000
times and he was a professionalwitness and normally you know
when people take, when mostpeople take expert depositions,
they take hours and I've gotteninto the part, into the point
where I don't want to take morethan an hour, so it's kind of
almost like a gold.
See how quick I can take it.
I don't ask them anything abouttheir background, because they
(12:23):
gave me a cv and all I have todo is look at one of the other
thousand transcripts to see umwhat they're gonna say what
their background is.
I don't even know what yourschool was and this or that I
can ask.
Ask that three questions andshut it down.
But I want to get right thereto like, and they gave me a
report.
I don't need to go overanything that they said because
it's all written down there.
They're going to have to stickto that.
(12:45):
I want to do a couple otherthings, but that is more
ruthless, karen.
Yeah, and I know you have aruthless mo, so let's segue.
Mo Hamoudi (12:56):
Segue to me yeah.
Karen Koehler (12:57):
I do want to say for ruthless Karen that it can
become a shock when you see it.
Yeah, Um, if you're not used toit.
Oh cause I'm so normally sweetand kind.
Mike Todd (13:09):
Yeah, and how do clients react to that?
Karen Koehler (13:12):
Oh, they love that.
I mean, that's what they want.
Mo Hamoudi (13:15):
Yeah, want yeah yeah, they.
Karen Koehler (13:16):
They don't want me to just be sweet yeah and
when you're all nice.
Mike Todd (13:20):
When they come in they're like, yeah, how's this
gonna work?
Karen Koehler (13:23):
how is this gonna work?
Mike Todd (13:24):
and then all of a sudden, I wish you'd been on.
Karen Koehler (13:28):
I wish you'd been on camera, because that was
wait a minute.
Mo Hamoudi (13:31):
By the way, I have a picture I'm gonna give you to
put, if you can, in the podcast,okay, of her making that face.
Karen Koehler (13:38):
I have it, mike, I have one in my phone.
Mike Todd (13:41):
I've saved it Because it's her going.
Karen Koehler (13:45):
I love it Because that's how I feel yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (13:47):
I'm going to send it to you, mike, okay.
Karen Koehler (13:49):
All right.
So to lead up to this, I wasthinking about this this morning
.
Yeah up to this I was thinkingabout, I was thinking about this
this morning.
Mo Hamoudi (13:59):
Yeah, I was thinking what is my favorite mo
to have with me?
Karen Koehler (14:02):
and it is ruthless mo.
Um I, I don't like ruthless moas much as I like other parts of
mo, but I like ruthless mo whenI turn him loose and he calls
it woof.
He goes, goes, woof, as Istarted woofing back.
That's our entire sentence toeach other, like I did this,
(14:23):
this and this and this, and thenthe response is woof.
He's an attack dog.
So I love that you have to dothat.
Mo Hamoudi (14:35):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (14:35):
And you don't always see people doing that
because it takes an extra.
There's extra involved whenyou're ruthless.
Mike Todd (14:42):
Well you have to turn it on.
Karen Koehler (14:44):
And you cannot worry about the other side
liking you or not.
Mo Hamoudi (14:50):
I don't care if they like me or not.
Karen Koehler (14:53):
So, as a lead into this, most of you watching
him just think he is the nicest,most personable guy.
Okay, so I was talking to thisdefense attorney.
I said what do you think aboutMoe?
And he said, well, I don'tthink he's very collegial.
And he said and you know, Ithink the people should be more
(15:13):
collegial, so I'm not reallyimpressed with him.
You know the jury's out.
Okay, ruthless Mode, what?
Mo Hamoudi (15:22):
do you want to know ?
Karen Koehler (15:24):
I want you to tell them what you told this
guy's associate and do it justlike you did it Do the whole
face, do the whole thing.
Mo Hamoudi (15:35):
I said to him, I said um wait, where were you?
I was in a courtroom and whatwere you doing?
Karen Koehler (15:42):
I just won significant victory okay, and
what did you tell him?
Mo Hamoudi (15:46):
I looked them and look at them I looked them in
the eye and I said you do notwant to see me in this courtroom
.
I will annihilate you.
I will humiliate your client.
You need to go talk to yourclient and you need to tell them
that.
Do you understand me?
Karen Koehler (16:11):
And I saw the blood leave his face and he
turned white.
This is my favorite part of Mo.
This is so good.
I mean I was dying when he toldme this because it was so good.
Mo Hamoudi (16:22):
I think that's what I said, but I meant it because
that's how I felt, you know yeahyes, it was necessary to be
that guy at that point.
It was absolutely necessary.
And sometimes you have to justbe ruthless because what does it
feel when you're ruthless?
Karen Koehler (16:44):
Tell me what you feel like when you're ruthless.
Mo Hamoudi (16:46):
I feel physically powerful.
I feel as though I'm grounded,I feel calm, I see things
clearly.
I see people's vulnerabilitiesthey become almost enhanced and
I see their weaknesses, eventhough they suggest they have
(17:07):
power, and I just drain thepower from them.
Karen Koehler (17:10):
How do you drain it?
Mo Hamoudi (17:11):
Through my words, through my presence, my physical
presence, my cadence, how Ispeak and how I walk up to them,
how I stand near them, how Ilook at them.
It is like animal qualitiesthat I have developed over years
(17:33):
.
Karen Koehler (17:35):
What do you think about this, mike?
Have you ever did you know thathe had this in him?
Mike Todd (17:41):
No, not until recently, for sure.
I mean, you know, I didn'treally know him before he was
hired here at all and so Ididn't and you know, right off,
he wasn't right into a case thatI was part of or that I knew
anything about, so it's onlyrecently, and also on this
(18:05):
podcast.
Karen Koehler (18:07):
So imagine that you got Ruthless Mo right like
that.
So the way that it works out inme is I am not physical, I do
not have his voice.
What I do is I will say stufflike you have no case.
Mike Todd (18:29):
See, but you're.
I mean they call you the VelvetAmber for a reason.
You're more subtle.
Karen Koehler (18:37):
Well, there's a point to my words, yeah and uh,
you know, and I'll mock them um,which can be very irritating
yes but?
But yes, we do it verydifferently together.
Mike Todd (18:50):
It's pretty inescapable I mean, that's what
I was gonna say as as that's oneof the things about this firm
that I like is that you oftenhave attorneys that are
complimenting each other whenthey go to trial, and that can
make a big difference, and italso helps a lot for the younger
attorneys to be able toexperience that a little bit.
Karen Koehler (19:10):
Yeah, Alright, so let's not scare anybody else
with Ruth this mo Tell us aboutsome other mos.
Mo Hamoudi (19:18):
Other ones are little mo.
Karen Koehler (19:20):
Okay, we already talked about little mo earlier.
Little mo, look it, look it,see right to little mo and
there's poet mo.
Well, we've heard poet mo.
We've talked about that a lot.
Mo Hamoudi (19:29):
There is shadow light mo.
What is shadow light mo.
Shadow light mo is the mo thatlives between the light and the
dark.
He is almost in a space wherehe is sort of trying to figure
(19:50):
out his life.
You know, he's a little bitambiguous.
He is spiritually oriented.
Then there is Wise Moe, whobrings wisdom to the other Moes
and helps organize them.
Karen Koehler (20:08):
Who's Basketball Moe?
Mo Hamoudi (20:10):
Basketball.
Moe is Rascal Moe.
Huh yeah, rascal Moe, rascalMoe, he's just a rascal.
Huh yeah, rascal Moe, rascalMoe, he's just a rascal.
He just likes to run around andbe a little rascal on a
basketball court and play.
And then there's Divine.
Karen Koehler (20:26):
Moe.
Mo Hamoudi (20:29):
See, moe has thought about this way more than
we have.
Well, the archetypes that I'vedeveloped have been developing
throughout my life to manage mylived experience, yeah, you know
, and so it's just like beenhelpful to, to uh, to to live
life through because you know.
Otherwise you don't know whyyou're acting the way you're
(20:49):
acting, I don't know.
I mean, you know sometimesyou're behaving a particular way
, but you're really behaving aparticular way because you're
unconscious about a livedexperience.
And when you start to realize alived experience you know a bad
relationship or you know traumaor any of that you start to
realize what part of me isreally behaving right now.
(21:11):
And then I think for me it wassuper helpful to try to organize
them into distinct archetypesso that I knew what I was
dealing with, and sometimes Ihave trouble managing them.
Karen Koehler (21:24):
Well, I mean, I will admit.
But I mean, you know again, youknow we have a lot of
differences because yes.
Because I have.
Many of us have trauma and thenthere's trauma.
Trauma Like the bombs arefalling.
You're growing up in a war-torncountry.
You can hear the bombs, youknow there's bad things that are
(21:45):
happening to you throughoutyour childhood, so you have a
trauma response that is a severetrauma response, and these
different Mo's are helping youlive.
Mo Hamoudi (21:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, they help me make good decisions,
but they also have made me asuccessful lawyer.
Karen Koehler (22:02):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (22:03):
You know I mean I think that, but I think that
where I'm comfortable is talkingabout them to people at work.
You know that's importantBecause at the end of the day I
need to feel safe.
Karen Koehler (22:15):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (22:16):
With the people I'm working with.
And I don't mean that physicalsafety, mike, I mean like safety
Vulnerability.
Yeah, and so that I know thatI'm with people who know me.
And so, yeah, I mean, how manyarchetypes do you have that?
You've identified a couple.
Karen Koehler (22:34):
Well, I'm not as thoughtful as you are, I'm not
as self-aware.
Mo Hamoudi (22:40):
I disagree with that, maybe.
Karen Koehler (22:42):
So much of me is internal.
Mo Hamoudi (22:44):
That you just haven't externalized.
Karen Koehler (22:46):
Yeah, I can't even tell you what was I knew
back then, because I wentthrough therapy of how did I get
into this situation?
And a lot of it is a lot of itis a lot of it is what are you
attracted to and why?
Like the mystery of that, andit typically involves your
(23:08):
parents.
Mo Hamoudi (23:10):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (23:11):
And my mother, you know, as I've told you
before, she was, you know, verymanic bipolar.
She was a manic bipolar with nodown.
Mo Hamoudi (23:20):
There's such a thing no down.
Karen Koehler (23:21):
No, there was never depression, it was just
manic High and higher and and sobut then.
Mo Hamoudi (23:33):
So like did you have an archetype that helped
manage that relationship?
Well, that's why I'mcompartmentalized okay, and so,
like you, would compartmentalizedifferent aspects.
Archetypes like younger karen,little k.
Karen Koehler (23:47):
Well, for me it was more simple, I think, and
not as I don't know.
I'm still trying to figure someof this stuff out and some of
it I don't want to figure out.
I understand, but what you'retrying to do is protect yourself
, right, and you want morecertainty or more stability, and
(24:07):
so you figure stuff out.
Mo Hamoudi (24:09):
But I I mean, I got a mouth on me for a reason and
I'm fast for a reason, because Ineeded to engage with that okay
okay, so that's part of me isjust that's, that's an
experience, right, that's anarchetype that you're describing
yeah that you had to like paceyourself to manage that
relationship and be in thatrelationship.
Karen Koehler (24:30):
Yeah, the pace was just like full steam ahead.
Mo Hamoudi (24:32):
I mean, little Mo was needed was the person that
got love.
Ruthless Mo doesn't get love.
Karen Koehler (24:46):
Yeah you know, but Ruthless Mo doesn't need it.
Yeah, I was going to say hedoesn't want it, he doesn't want
love.
Yeah, you know, but RuthlessMoe doesn't need it.
Mike Todd (24:48):
Yeah, I was going to say he doesn't want it.
Karen Koehler (24:50):
He doesn't want it, right?
Yeah, that's right.
He's rejected it.
Mo Hamoudi (24:52):
Yeah, and so I always think that, like I don't
know, I mean, I think it wouldbe an interesting exercise to
sit down and actually like,imagine there's a conference
room.
Karen Koehler (25:02):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (25:04):
And all the sides of you you've invited and you
would say like who's?
Karen Koehler (25:07):
who.
Mo Hamoudi (25:09):
And then put them at the table.
Karen Koehler (25:10):
Well, you've known me for a year.
Haven't you formed impressions?
How many Karens are there?
Mo Hamoudi (25:19):
I have identified at a minimum four archetypes.
Mike Todd (25:22):
I was going to say four.
What are they?
I was going to say four, atleast.
Mo Hamoudi (25:26):
Yeah, four at least .
One is the maternal archetype.
Karen Koehler (25:29):
I definitely have that you have one of the
strongest maternal archetypes.
I do.
Mo Hamoudi (25:33):
I have seen.
The other one is like beyondruthless.
Mike Todd (25:42):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (25:43):
Almost like a savage, like a dangerous beast.
Karen Koehler (25:48):
Did you just say yeah, I did yeah yeah, like
it's savage, like it's.
Mo Hamoudi (25:54):
I've identified that archetype but it's not.
Mike Todd (25:57):
It's not a bad thing.
Mo Hamoudi (25:58):
Savage is a tough word to use okay can I just, can
I just defend the word realquick, go ahead.
Okay, savage, I think is is nota bad word.
I think it's an incrediblepositive way to describe the
fact that your ruthlessness isso unpredictable that it's
almost savage and it's like it'san incredible strength.
(26:19):
It terrifies people.
So I think it's a positive word, but I'm willing to give it up.
Mike Todd (26:25):
I just feel that savage brings forth the idea
that it's uncontrolled, and it'snot.
That's.
My thing is that it's a verycontrolled, powerful position.
I don't know what I would usenecessarily to describe it, but
when it's turned on, it's scary.
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (26:45):
Well, because I think what I do is I'm very
calculated and fast, so so itseems like I haven't thought it
through, but one of my thingsabout me, if you know me, is how
fast I process yes, yes so I'malways, I always think yes very
rarely.
You know you should think beforeyou speak that I only hear that
(27:08):
when I'm like everything's off,Like I'm not on, Like I'm just
being lazy with my kids and Isay something stupid, Because
otherwise, when I'm in thisarena, I'm not going to say
something without having thoughtit through.
I just think it through quickand what I want to know is I
mean, I'm going to haveidentified your weaknesses and
(27:30):
I'm normally going to just goright at it.
Mo Hamoudi (27:32):
Yes, yes.
Karen Koehler (27:34):
Kind of like you , but in a totally different way
.
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (27:37):
The other thing is your divine archetype.
You are incredibly, have divinewisdom, you have a higher
consciousness, wisdom that Imean, is that three?
You know, that's three, you know, and so I think that that I've
(27:59):
seen you bring to bear and calma situation, and quick, you'll
walk into a conference room andthere'll be tension and you'll
just speak a couple of words andit calms everything down and
then you just start talking andeverybody just starts listening
and they trust what you'resaying and you, you like, lead
(28:21):
people towards the water.
You know you go.
this is the way come on, let'sgo and you don't use any of the
other two archetypes to get usthere.
But that's an incredibleleadership quality.
You have the last one.
I'm going to hold back a littlebit.
Karen Koehler (28:38):
All right.
Mo Hamoudi (28:38):
I don't want to tell you.
Karen Koehler (28:39):
Uh-oh.
Mo Hamoudi (28:41):
I'm not going to tell you the last one because
I'm still watching it, figuringit out out.
Mike Todd (28:45):
I'm still figuring it out well, I'll bring that one
come on what I think is thefourth one is is private karen
that you don't see very often,that likes to go to movies and
likes to go running to get peaceand, you know, be with her
(29:07):
family, stuff like that, whichis a totally different Karen
that most people don't see youknow, even people at work
probably don't see it very often, if they do ever.
But what I was going to say, too, about the, about the scary
part, the one of the scariestthings that I think that this is
the reason that other attorneysare afraid sometimes is that
(29:28):
you make a decision and youstick with it.
Karen Koehler (29:30):
You know that you're right when you've made
the choice.
Mike Todd (29:35):
And then you don't back off, which some people will
make that choice and then belike, oh, waffling back and
forth, did I do the right one?
I don't think you do that, atleast not that I've seen.
Karen Koehler (29:48):
Well, when we're talking about the decision,
that needs to be stuck with,because I will change my mind.
Mike Todd (29:54):
But that's different.
Karen Koehler (29:54):
Yeah, so what I feel like is I don't ever make a
threat.
I don't like threats.
I think that they're punk moves.
I think threats are just silly,and a lot of lawyers make a lot
of threats.
I just believe, like this isthe way it's going to be and if
you do this, then this is what'sgoing to happen, and I think
(30:18):
I've done it enough that peopleunderstand that that's true.
So then it helps them make aninformed decision about what
they want to do next, because Iam not.
I'm not just making a threatthat I may or may not follow
through.
Mike Todd (30:32):
No, you're going to follow through yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (30:35):
I mean.
Okay, so the fourth one, Mikekind of sort of touched on it,
so I think I can talk about it.
What it is is that it's because, like over the past year and
some months, that we've gottento know each other, I've gotten
to know you as a friend andthere is like this private
(30:55):
aspect to karen, but there's aplayfulness that is my favorite
archetype, because when you arein what I call in the sandbox
with karen and you know, when wecall in the sandbox with Karen
and we're in the sandbox andwe're just playing with our toys
and playing in our sandbox, Igot to tell you my time almost
(31:17):
stands still for me and it'sjust such a pleasurable place to
be in and sometimes when we'reworking we're in that space and
I could care about nothing elseand I just want to be there and
just keep going, isn't it just?
Karen Koehler (31:34):
true for all of us that one of the most fun
things that we can do is havefun.
Yeah.
Mike Todd (31:42):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (31:43):
I mean, that's why we like doing this.
Mo Hamoudi (31:45):
You even like it yeah.
Karen Koehler (31:46):
It's very fun.
I mean, first of all, we get toknow each other really well,
but it's also pretty fun andfunny and you know, I'm not
motivated by a lot of thingsthat other people are motivated
by.
I'm motivated to work because Ilike it, and I like it because,
of course, you know you cantalk about all the higher
(32:08):
principles.
You help people get justice andall that.
But I also like it because itbrings me a lot of joy.
That's right, that's right.
And yeah, I mean especially whenwe're kicking someone's ass
Again.
The reason why it feels so goodis because they deserve it.
Yeah, the reason why it feelsso good is because they deserve
(32:29):
it.
Yeah, and when you're justwatching them like choking and
you're just thinking you're notbeing gloaty because you want
that lawyer to suffer, butyou're looking at what that
lawyer is doing, which is tryingto destroy your client.
Mo Hamoudi (32:43):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (32:44):
For what For an insurance company Like gross?
Mo Hamoudi (32:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
For what?
For an insurance company?
Like gross, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you're also playful and funand kind of.
I thank you, you know.
So that's just.
I think that's, I guess, myfavorite archetype.
Karen Koehler (33:00):
Yeah, even though I like the other ones,
that's my favorite one.
So, how do we?
How, how?
Okay, mike, what's yourfavorite one?
Mike Todd (33:12):
Of you.
Karen Koehler (33:12):
Of you.
Mike Todd (33:13):
Of me.
Yeah, yeah, Mike.
What are your archetypes?
My favorite one is artistic,Mike Ah.
Musical Because that's when,when everything's clicking.
When I'm playing music, whetherit's alone or with other people
and it's usually more when it'swith other people that's when
(33:38):
everything melts away, exceptfor the music and the
interaction between you and theaudience and the other musicians
, and the weight of the world isgone and you fly.
That's that's why I like makingmusic so much and I think
(33:58):
people get that with all.
I'm sure that you Mo get thatwith poetry.
Yes, I think that you get thatwith work.
Um, when, when that stuffhappens happens, that's the
favorite.
And I mean I think thatbecoming more of who we are,
realizing our archetypes, for meit's a constant conversation in
(34:23):
my head.
You know everybody, or?
Karen Koehler (34:25):
most of the people I know have a monologue
that's running in their head.
Mike Todd (34:28):
But I got a team and they argue and some of them try
to be the be in charge and someof them don't want to be in
charge because like little momight not want to you know,
might sort of be timid to theother savage Moe.
Mo Hamoudi (34:48):
Yeah, ruthless Moe yeah.
Mike Todd (34:51):
But you can't let Ruthless Moe run the whole thing
because then you'd be apsychopath.
Mo Hamoudi (34:58):
I know yes.
Mike Todd (35:01):
But I think finding the balance in between all the
archetypes and having them worktogether at once is when you
become a person, and it takes along time.
Some people maybe that happensearlier, but most of the people
that I know still aren't thereyet and you know, I'm at least a
couple, three quarters of theway through my life.
I think so, but it takes a longtime and I think a lot of
(35:24):
people don't ever get therebecause they don't even realize
the archetypes or don't want toadmit them yeah, yeah what about
you?
Mo Hamoudi (35:33):
my favorite one is that's hard, I think, wisemore,
you know he is maturing more asI get older and I'm realizing
that he is going to be the nextstep in my personal and
professional evolution, that heleading the charge of the other
(35:58):
Mo's.
That's the one I'm focused onright now.
What about you?
Karen Koehler (36:07):
Well, first of all, I really love being a
grandma, but that's not, youknow, I mean, and that's you
know, that's granny personality.
But but for me, when everythingis clicking for me and and it
can be a variety it could bewhen I'm, when I'm in, when I'm
in the zone writing like when Iwrite a, like a settlement
demand, or when I write a, youknow, when I'm in the zone
(36:28):
writing like when I write asettlement demand, or when I'm
just writing, when I'm certainlyin trial, and I just love it so
much.
There's something about andit's the way that I process,
which is I prepare, obviously Iprepare a lot, but then I don't
(36:49):
orchestrate how it's the waythat I process, which is I
prepare, obviously I prepare alot, but then I don't
orchestrate how it's released.
I really trust myself.
I trust my brain to know it, Itrust myself, and when I'm in
the zone like that, it feelslike other world.
When it comes out, it's verymuch similar to music.
Yeah, it's just coming out andit's just the way it's meant to
(37:14):
be, and there might be a couplelittle boo-boos, but you don't
even care, but it feels so good,it doesn't matter it and it's
coming out and it's just it'severything combining.
it's not just creativity, it'severything combining.
It's not just creativity, it'severything that combines and
then comes out and it's justlike a flower.
Mo Hamoudi (37:33):
By the way, I think that's Michael Cairn.
Karen Koehler (37:37):
I mean when I read your writing.
Mo Hamoudi (37:39):
It is almost like playful and musical.
Mike Todd (37:43):
Especially when you're writing like after or
during trials, when you writewhat's happened every day, I
mean that's so fun sometimes.
Even when it's mad, or evenwhen it's frustrated, you still
approach it with alightheartedness that makes it
really fun to read.
Karen Koehler (38:01):
Thanks, guys.
Well, that was an interestingconversation about all of our
stuff.
I agree, thank you.
All right, I thought today that we would talk
about how many Mo's are in you,how many Karen's are in me, how
many Mark's are in you thedifferent aspects of our
personality.
Mo Hamoudi (00:10):
Archetypes, archetypes.
That is what I've been taughtrecently they are as our
archetypes.
Karen Koehler (00:17):
Do you want to go first?
Why don't you go first?
Mo Hamoudi (00:19):
No, you go first.
Okay, well, let me hear you.
Karen Koehler (00:21):
So you know, you hear, especially in the office.
You know we've been talkingabout you don't celebrate enough
, and this and that.
Mo Hamoudi (00:29):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (00:30):
And people also kind of talk about oh well, I'm
an introvert or I'm an extrovert.
Mo Hamoudi (00:35):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Karen Koehler (00:36):
Which is such an oversimplification of who we
are.
I mean all these labels, or wetake these personality tests and
you know, I'm strategic, I'mthis, I'm that or I'm not, and
that's supposed to define youtoo.
That's supposed to define us,but what I've come to see is
that we all have differentpeople in us, personas for
(00:58):
different occasions, and Ithought we would start talking
about it.
So I'm going to tell you astory.
Mo Hamoudi (01:03):
Tell me a story.
Karen Koehler (01:05):
So I'm going to tell you a story.
Tell me a story.
So I was a married person atone time in my life.
Mo Hamoudi (01:08):
You Married no.
Karen Koehler (01:11):
If you can even imagine.
Mo Hamoudi (01:12):
I cannot imagine I was.
Karen Koehler (01:15):
And I was a good little wife.
Mo Hamoudi (01:17):
I had a very Did you just say good, little wife.
Karen Koehler (01:20):
I had a very A dominant spouse and I was the
one that kept the peace.
So I was.
I mean, if you want to talkabout a whole, totally different
person, you would not haverecognized me.
But I digress.
So I remember we were at adinner.
It was a large dinner.
It was mainly you know, hisfriends were my friends, like I
(01:42):
just kind of adopt all of hisfriends.
You know, when you're marriedyou kind of yeah.
So there was probably I don'tknow five, six, seven couples
around a table.
Mo Hamoudi (01:52):
Right.
Karen Koehler (01:53):
And I'd known most of them for a couple of
years.
Yeah, some better than others.
And midway through the mealsomebody said something, and one
of the people I still rememberhis name David Hughes.
Okay, he was, uh, he wasHawaiian and he used to.
He had a short career with theSeahawks, I think.
Um, this is way back, and hecould kind of he said out of the
(02:20):
blue, said you're a lawyer.
He was literally stunnedbecause I didn't act like a
lawyer, I just act like a sweetlittle.
Mo Hamoudi (02:31):
Sweet little.
Karen Koehler (02:32):
Sweet little person, and so that got me
thinking this morning.
You know, when you ruminateabout weird stuff that pops into
your head, about the differentaspects of a personality.
Mo Hamoudi (02:46):
Okay, so what aspect of the personality was
that?
Karen Koehler (02:48):
Well, like, okay , that was one that I've put
away.
That was my Martha Stewartphase of life, which I just gave
after I was married.
I never looked at MarthaStewart again.
Mo Hamoudi (02:58):
Okay, can I ask some questions about Martha
Stewart Karen?
Karen Koehler (03:03):
Well, let me tell you about my favorite one
was before that, before I gotmarried, it was Disco Cairn.
Mo Hamoudi (03:08):
Okay, Disco Cairn.
Karen Koehler (03:09):
Okay, which was a completely different person
than Martha Stewart Cairn.
I used to say that I was achameleon because I could be so
many different things to so manydifferent people.
I still have that ability, andI don't even know why that is.
What is that about a personthat you can do that?
But in the office, I am serious, karen.
Mo Hamoudi (03:31):
Serious Karen.
Karen Koehler (03:31):
I am, I'm pretty intense.
Mo Hamoudi (03:33):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (03:33):
And I just kind of work a lot.
Mo Hamoudi (03:36):
I know.
Karen Koehler (03:37):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (03:38):
Inaccessible.
Karen Koehler (03:42):
You just sit in your office.
That's not true, I walk around.
Sometimes.
But I can be daunting and Idon't even see that about myself
yes yeah, so these are some ofthe little.
Tell me more, what else?
Mo Hamoudi (03:55):
well, what I want to know is how did disco karen
become martha stewart karen well, that was called the horrible
institution of marriage okay,the institution of marriage.
Karen Koehler (04:03):
I was also you also in my very early 20s and I
probably I'm glad that I gotmarried because I had three
children that I love.
But in retrospect, why do weget married?
This is going to take us on awhole other topic.
Why do we make the decisionsthat we do?
Mo Hamoudi (04:20):
I just read an article that was fantastic about
the institution of marriage isthat the primary driving force
of the institution of marriagewas economics, was that people
needed to be provided for.
And then that dynamic starts toradically change when women
find empowerment throughemployment and success.
And then that's why women arelike I don't really need to get
(04:44):
married.
I mean, in a lot of waysthey're like why do I need to
get married?
Because you know the incentivesare not there.
The external incentives are notthere.
My question is did Disco Karenbecome Martha Stewart Karen
because she wanted a guy to takecare of her?
Karen Koehler (04:58):
I know, Okay then why that was completely not
it.
I think it's more complicatedthan that, then what is that?
Mo Hamoudi (05:08):
I mean, I don't want to have that conversation
here.
Okay, that's not fair.
We talk about.
Okay, that's not fair.
Karen Koehler (05:12):
Mike, she says, okay, this is so off topic we're
supposed to talk about thepeople inside of us.
Mo Hamoudi (05:17):
That's the inside of you.
I will tell you.
Karen Koehler (05:19):
Okay, I will tell you.
I've never, ever exactlyfigured out exactly 100% why,
but I have many suspicions.
Mo Hamoudi (05:27):
Okay, let's hear them.
Karen Koehler (05:28):
Number one I do think that there was a
traditional you know there weretraditional bones in my body
about, like I guess that's whatyou're supposed to do when you
reach a certain age.
Yeah, and you know, I was inlove, he was in love, okay, love
tradition.
Love so.
Mo Hamoudi (05:46):
And young.
I mean you said you were pretty.
Mike Todd (05:49):
That's six years younger than when I got married.
Karen Koehler (05:52):
Youthful energy tradition and he was very
traditional, which was always.
You know, I wasn't really sureabout that, but I was willing to
do that and that's the questionI've never really been sure
about because I am nottraditional in so many other
ways.
I think it was because of mylife experience up to them and
(06:15):
my life experience.
So this was in the early 80s.
As you know, in the 80s, early80s, mid-80s, aids had just been
.
Aids was a raging epidemic and,like you didn't, you know, I
think there was safety inmarriage from that okay, that's
interesting you know, I thinkthat I perceived safety, not
(06:38):
perceived yeah perceived safety.
Mike Todd (06:40):
That's right.
Karen Koehler (06:41):
Mike, I mean, you know, I don't know exactly
why no?
Mo Hamoudi (06:48):
you've identified some qualities.
Karen Koehler (06:49):
These are some of the reasons.
I think that, probably in theback of my head, I thought well,
you know, they always say thatwomen marry for biology.
Like, okay, well, would I havechildren?
Okay, well, well with thisperson.
And I guess you know that'sanother issue can I put out a
(07:11):
potential suggestion?
Mo Hamoudi (07:12):
yeah how about just wanting to be with somebody,
okay, who sees you for who youare?
Karen Koehler (07:20):
and being with don't know that they ever saw me
for who I was.
Mo Hamoudi (07:25):
I'm not saying.
I'm saying that maybe that wasultimately the outcome.
Understanding.
But at the first instant whenyou go into a relationship and
say I want to be with you forthe rest of my life, what you're
doing is saying that I want tobe your partner in life and I
want you to see me for who I am,and you want them to see you
(07:47):
for who you are.
Karen Koehler (07:48):
I was not that evolved.
Mo Hamoudi (07:49):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (07:51):
And what I remember is that when we went
and got married I mean we hadthe marriage ceremony as soon as
it was over I wanted to go backto my parents' home.
I did not want to go.
Mo Hamoudi (08:10):
You didn't want to hang out with them.
Karen Koehler (08:12):
I remember feeling like I want that's when
I freaked out Like he freakedout before we got married, like
oh, not freaked out, but youknow he was a little nervous
beforehand.
I was never nervous until rightwhen I got married.
Then I was like oh, oh crap.
Mike Todd (08:30):
What did I?
Karen Koehler (08:31):
do.
I'm here and I wanted to bethere, but I also kind of wanted
to like go back to my, mymommy's and daddy's house.
It was a weird thing.
I told him about it.
Mo Hamoudi (08:44):
So it wasn't Romeo Romeo.
Wherefore art thou Romeo?
There wasn't the romance.
Karen Koehler (08:49):
No, there was Romeo.
Mo Hamoudi (08:50):
Romeo.
Karen Koehler (08:51):
Okay, that's why I'm saying like this is weird,
this is I told you you weregoing to take us completely off
topic.
Mo Hamoudi (08:57):
I didn't.
We're talking about thepersonality of Disco Karen
turning into Martha Stewart.
Karen.
Karen Koehler (09:02):
And what?
Mo Hamoudi (09:02):
you've described to me.
What you've described to metell me if I'm wrong is that
there are a variety of externalfactors culture, times and
wanting to do what you believedwas correct in the context of
where you were in your life thatdrove you towards this
particular direction, plusromance, and I think that that's
(09:25):
.
Karen Koehler (09:26):
I also had an unhealthy ability to make myself
into what I thought the otherperson wanted.
Mo Hamoudi (09:34):
That's interesting.
Karen Koehler (09:35):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (09:37):
Don't you think, though I mean to get back on
topic a little bit.
Karen Koehler (09:41):
You've had a very successful marriage.
Mike Todd (09:43):
Well, it hasn't been easy.
I'd say that I mean it's bothfor her and for me.
Karen Koehler (09:48):
Yeah, but I think that that's.
You guys have been married forwhat?
30 years, 30 years, yeah.
Mike Todd (09:53):
Well, it'll be 30 years in August.
Karen Koehler (09:56):
You better do something nice.
Mike Todd (09:57):
We're going to.
Karen Koehler (09:58):
Amsterdam.
Mike Todd (10:00):
Oh nice.
But to get back on topic, don'tyou think that your other
personalities come out at timeswhen they're needed?
Yes, when it's like you said,after your wedding, you sort of
regressed into what you were ina younger person, where, when
(10:24):
you're in trial against a firmthat's working for a giant
corporation, you're going toturn into someone else.
You're going to turn intosomeone else who's got some
armor and might be a little bitmore forceful than another part
of yourself.
Karen Koehler (10:44):
I have always been a very good advocate for
others and not for myself.
That's something that's verycommon.
But trial Karen is completelyher own being.
That's the performative part iscompletely her own being.
That's the performative part.
I've always said the mostrelated people that I've talked
(11:07):
to are like actors, and it's notthat I'm acting, but we are
literally up there giving aperformance of life.
Well, it is a performance.
Mike Todd (11:18):
Yeah, you know, speaking in front of a jury is
very much a performance.
I think, and that's one of thereasons why you know, when you
see younger attorneys they'renot often ready for that,
because they were kind of taughtto be that prototypical lawyer.
Karen Koehler (11:34):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (11:34):
And they need to work into their persona.
Karen Koehler (11:39):
Yeah, yeah, and normally see how pleasant I am
You're very pleasant Well I tooka deposition last week of an
expert.
It lasted 21 minutes.
Mo Hamoudi (11:50):
And it wasn't pleasant.
Karen Koehler (11:51):
I was horrible the whole time.
Mike Todd (11:53):
As you talk about that, can you quickly explain
the difference between deposingan expert and a layperson?
Karen Koehler (12:00):
Yeah, like this guy had been hired about 2,000
times and he was a professionalwitness and normally you know
when people take, when mostpeople take expert depositions,
they take hours and I've gotteninto the part, into the point
where I don't want to take morethan an hour, so it's kind of
almost like a gold.
See how quick I can take it.
I don't ask them anything abouttheir background, because they
(12:23):
gave me a cv and all I have todo is look at one of the other
thousand transcripts to see umwhat they're gonna say what
their background is.
I don't even know what yourschool was and this or that I
can ask.
Ask that three questions andshut it down.
But I want to get right thereto like, and they gave me a
report.
I don't need to go overanything that they said because
it's all written down there.
They're going to have to stickto that.
(12:45):
I want to do a couple otherthings, but that is more
ruthless, karen.
Yeah, and I know you have aruthless mo, so let's segue.
Mo Hamoudi (12:56):
Segue to me yeah.
Karen Koehler (12:57):
I do want to say for ruthless Karen that it can
become a shock when you see it.
Yeah, Um, if you're not used toit.
Oh cause I'm so normally sweetand kind.
Mike Todd (13:09):
Yeah, and how do clients react to that?
Karen Koehler (13:12):
Oh, they love that.
I mean, that's what they want.
Mo Hamoudi (13:15):
Yeah, want yeah yeah, they.
Karen Koehler (13:16):
They don't want me to just be sweet yeah and
when you're all nice.
Mike Todd (13:20):
When they come in they're like, yeah, how's this
gonna work?
Karen Koehler (13:23):
how is this gonna work?
Mike Todd (13:24):
and then all of a sudden, I wish you'd been on.
Karen Koehler (13:28):
I wish you'd been on camera, because that was
wait a minute.
Mo Hamoudi (13:31):
By the way, I have a picture I'm gonna give you to
put, if you can, in the podcast,okay, of her making that face.
Karen Koehler (13:38):
I have it, mike, I have one in my phone.
Mike Todd (13:41):
I've saved it Because it's her going.
Karen Koehler (13:45):
I love it Because that's how I feel yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (13:47):
I'm going to send it to you, mike, okay.
Karen Koehler (13:49):
All right.
So to lead up to this, I wasthinking about this this morning
.
Yeah up to this I was thinkingabout, I was thinking about this
this morning.
Mo Hamoudi (13:59):
Yeah, I was thinking what is my favorite mo
to have with me?
Karen Koehler (14:02):
and it is ruthless mo.
Um I, I don't like ruthless moas much as I like other parts of
mo, but I like ruthless mo whenI turn him loose and he calls
it woof.
He goes, goes, woof, as Istarted woofing back.
That's our entire sentence toeach other, like I did this,
(14:23):
this and this and this, and thenthe response is woof.
He's an attack dog.
So I love that you have to dothat.
Mo Hamoudi (14:35):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (14:35):
And you don't always see people doing that
because it takes an extra.
There's extra involved whenyou're ruthless.
Mike Todd (14:42):
Well you have to turn it on.
Karen Koehler (14:44):
And you cannot worry about the other side
liking you or not.
Mo Hamoudi (14:50):
I don't care if they like me or not.
Karen Koehler (14:53):
So, as a lead into this, most of you watching
him just think he is the nicest,most personable guy.
Okay, so I was talking to thisdefense attorney.
I said what do you think aboutMoe?
And he said, well, I don'tthink he's very collegial.
And he said and you know, Ithink the people should be more
(15:13):
collegial, so I'm not reallyimpressed with him.
You know the jury's out.
Okay, ruthless Mode, what?
Mo Hamoudi (15:22):
do you want to know ?
Karen Koehler (15:24):
I want you to tell them what you told this
guy's associate and do it justlike you did it Do the whole
face, do the whole thing.
Mo Hamoudi (15:35):
I said to him, I said um wait, where were you?
I was in a courtroom and whatwere you doing?
Karen Koehler (15:42):
I just won significant victory okay, and
what did you tell him?
Mo Hamoudi (15:46):
I looked them and look at them I looked them in
the eye and I said you do notwant to see me in this courtroom
.
I will annihilate you.
I will humiliate your client.
You need to go talk to yourclient and you need to tell them
that.
Do you understand me?
Karen Koehler (16:11):
And I saw the blood leave his face and he
turned white.
This is my favorite part of Mo.
This is so good.
I mean I was dying when he toldme this because it was so good.
Mo Hamoudi (16:22):
I think that's what I said, but I meant it because
that's how I felt, you know yeahyes, it was necessary to be
that guy at that point.
It was absolutely necessary.
And sometimes you have to justbe ruthless because what does it
feel when you're ruthless?
Karen Koehler (16:44):
Tell me what you feel like when you're ruthless.
Mo Hamoudi (16:46):
I feel physically powerful.
I feel as though I'm grounded,I feel calm, I see things
clearly.
I see people's vulnerabilitiesthey become almost enhanced and
I see their weaknesses, eventhough they suggest they have
(17:07):
power, and I just drain thepower from them.
Karen Koehler (17:10):
How do you drain it?
Mo Hamoudi (17:11):
Through my words, through my presence, my physical
presence, my cadence, how Ispeak and how I walk up to them,
how I stand near them, how Ilook at them.
It is like animal qualitiesthat I have developed over years
(17:33):
.
Karen Koehler (17:35):
What do you think about this, mike?
Have you ever did you know thathe had this in him?
Mike Todd (17:41):
No, not until recently, for sure.
I mean, you know, I didn'treally know him before he was
hired here at all and so Ididn't and you know, right off,
he wasn't right into a case thatI was part of or that I knew
anything about, so it's onlyrecently, and also on this
(18:05):
podcast.
Karen Koehler (18:07):
So imagine that you got Ruthless Mo right like
that.
So the way that it works out inme is I am not physical, I do
not have his voice.
What I do is I will say stufflike you have no case.
Mike Todd (18:29):
See, but you're.
I mean they call you the VelvetAmber for a reason.
You're more subtle.
Karen Koehler (18:37):
Well, there's a point to my words, yeah and uh,
you know, and I'll mock them um,which can be very irritating
yes but?
But yes, we do it verydifferently together.
Mike Todd (18:50):
It's pretty inescapable I mean, that's what
I was gonna say as as that's oneof the things about this firm
that I like is that you oftenhave attorneys that are
complimenting each other whenthey go to trial, and that can
make a big difference, and italso helps a lot for the younger
attorneys to be able toexperience that a little bit.
Karen Koehler (19:10):
Yeah, Alright, so let's not scare anybody else
with Ruth this mo Tell us aboutsome other mos.
Mo Hamoudi (19:18):
Other ones are little mo.
Karen Koehler (19:20):
Okay, we already talked about little mo earlier.
Little mo, look it, look it,see right to little mo and
there's poet mo.
Well, we've heard poet mo.
We've talked about that a lot.
Mo Hamoudi (19:29):
There is shadow light mo.
What is shadow light mo.
Shadow light mo is the mo thatlives between the light and the
dark.
He is almost in a space wherehe is sort of trying to figure
(19:50):
out his life.
You know, he's a little bitambiguous.
He is spiritually oriented.
Then there is Wise Moe, whobrings wisdom to the other Moes
and helps organize them.
Karen Koehler (20:08):
Who's Basketball Moe?
Mo Hamoudi (20:10):
Basketball.
Moe is Rascal Moe.
Huh yeah, rascal Moe, rascalMoe, he's just a rascal.
Huh yeah, rascal Moe, rascalMoe, he's just a rascal.
He just likes to run around andbe a little rascal on a
basketball court and play.
And then there's Divine.
Karen Koehler (20:26):
Moe.
Mo Hamoudi (20:29):
See, moe has thought about this way more than
we have.
Well, the archetypes that I'vedeveloped have been developing
throughout my life to manage mylived experience, yeah, you know
, and so it's just like beenhelpful to, to uh, to to live
life through because you know.
Otherwise you don't know whyyou're acting the way you're
(20:49):
acting, I don't know.
I mean, you know sometimesyou're behaving a particular way
, but you're really behaving aparticular way because you're
unconscious about a livedexperience.
And when you start to realize alived experience you know a bad
relationship or you know traumaor any of that you start to
realize what part of me isreally behaving right now.
(21:11):
And then I think for me it wassuper helpful to try to organize
them into distinct archetypesso that I knew what I was
dealing with, and sometimes Ihave trouble managing them.
Karen Koehler (21:24):
Well, I mean, I will admit.
But I mean, you know again, youknow we have a lot of
differences because yes.
Because I have.
Many of us have trauma and thenthere's trauma.
Trauma Like the bombs arefalling.
You're growing up in a war-torncountry.
You can hear the bombs, youknow there's bad things that are
(21:45):
happening to you throughoutyour childhood, so you have a
trauma response that is a severetrauma response, and these
different Mo's are helping youlive.
Mo Hamoudi (21:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, they help me make good decisions,
but they also have made me asuccessful lawyer.
Karen Koehler (22:02):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (22:03):
You know I mean I think that, but I think that
where I'm comfortable is talkingabout them to people at work.
You know that's importantBecause at the end of the day I
need to feel safe.
Karen Koehler (22:15):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (22:16):
With the people I'm working with.
And I don't mean that physicalsafety, mike, I mean like safety
Vulnerability.
Yeah, and so that I know thatI'm with people who know me.
And so, yeah, I mean, how manyarchetypes do you have that?
You've identified a couple.
Karen Koehler (22:34):
Well, I'm not as thoughtful as you are, I'm not
as self-aware.
Mo Hamoudi (22:40):
I disagree with that, maybe.
Karen Koehler (22:42):
So much of me is internal.
Mo Hamoudi (22:44):
That you just haven't externalized.
Karen Koehler (22:46):
Yeah, I can't even tell you what was I knew
back then, because I wentthrough therapy of how did I get
into this situation?
And a lot of it is a lot of itis a lot of it is what are you
attracted to and why?
Like the mystery of that, andit typically involves your
(23:08):
parents.
Mo Hamoudi (23:10):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (23:11):
And my mother, you know, as I've told you
before, she was, you know, verymanic bipolar.
She was a manic bipolar with nodown.
Mo Hamoudi (23:20):
There's such a thing no down.
Karen Koehler (23:21):
No, there was never depression, it was just
manic High and higher and and sobut then.
Mo Hamoudi (23:33):
So like did you have an archetype that helped
manage that relationship?
Well, that's why I'mcompartmentalized okay, and so,
like you, would compartmentalizedifferent aspects.
Archetypes like younger karen,little k.
Karen Koehler (23:47):
Well, for me it was more simple, I think, and
not as I don't know.
I'm still trying to figure someof this stuff out and some of
it I don't want to figure out.
I understand, but what you'retrying to do is protect yourself
, right, and you want morecertainty or more stability, and
(24:07):
so you figure stuff out.
Mo Hamoudi (24:09):
But I I mean, I got a mouth on me for a reason and
I'm fast for a reason, because Ineeded to engage with that okay
okay, so that's part of me isjust that's, that's an
experience, right, that's anarchetype that you're describing
yeah that you had to like paceyourself to manage that
relationship and be in thatrelationship.
Karen Koehler (24:30):
Yeah, the pace was just like full steam ahead.
Mo Hamoudi (24:32):
I mean, little Mo was needed was the person that
got love.
Ruthless Mo doesn't get love.
Karen Koehler (24:46):
Yeah you know, but Ruthless Mo doesn't need it.
Yeah, I was going to say hedoesn't want it, he doesn't want
love.
Yeah, you know, but RuthlessMoe doesn't need it.
Mike Todd (24:48):
Yeah, I was going to say he doesn't want it.
Karen Koehler (24:50):
He doesn't want it, right?
Yeah, that's right.
He's rejected it.
Mo Hamoudi (24:52):
Yeah, and so I always think that, like I don't
know, I mean, I think it wouldbe an interesting exercise to
sit down and actually like,imagine there's a conference
room.
Karen Koehler (25:02):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (25:04):
And all the sides of you you've invited and you
would say like who's?
Karen Koehler (25:07):
who.
Mo Hamoudi (25:09):
And then put them at the table.
Karen Koehler (25:10):
Well, you've known me for a year.
Haven't you formed impressions?
How many Karens are there?
Mo Hamoudi (25:19):
I have identified at a minimum four archetypes.
Mike Todd (25:22):
I was going to say four.
What are they?
I was going to say four, atleast.
Mo Hamoudi (25:26):
Yeah, four at least .
One is the maternal archetype.
Karen Koehler (25:29):
I definitely have that you have one of the
strongest maternal archetypes.
I do.
Mo Hamoudi (25:33):
I have seen.
The other one is like beyondruthless.
Mike Todd (25:42):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (25:43):
Almost like a savage, like a dangerous beast.
Karen Koehler (25:48):
Did you just say yeah, I did yeah yeah, like
it's savage, like it's.
Mo Hamoudi (25:54):
I've identified that archetype but it's not.
Mike Todd (25:57):
It's not a bad thing.
Mo Hamoudi (25:58):
Savage is a tough word to use okay can I just, can
I just defend the word realquick, go ahead.
Okay, savage, I think is is nota bad word.
I think it's an incrediblepositive way to describe the
fact that your ruthlessness isso unpredictable that it's
almost savage and it's like it'san incredible strength.
(26:19):
It terrifies people.
So I think it's a positive word, but I'm willing to give it up.
Mike Todd (26:25):
I just feel that savage brings forth the idea
that it's uncontrolled, and it'snot.
That's.
My thing is that it's a verycontrolled, powerful position.
I don't know what I would usenecessarily to describe it, but
when it's turned on, it's scary.
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (26:45):
Well, because I think what I do is I'm very
calculated and fast, so so itseems like I haven't thought it
through, but one of my thingsabout me, if you know me, is how
fast I process yes, yes so I'malways, I always think yes very
rarely.
You know you should think beforeyou speak that I only hear that
(27:08):
when I'm like everything's off,Like I'm not on, Like I'm just
being lazy with my kids and Isay something stupid, Because
otherwise, when I'm in thisarena, I'm not going to say
something without having thoughtit through.
I just think it through quickand what I want to know is I
mean, I'm going to haveidentified your weaknesses and
(27:30):
I'm normally going to just goright at it.
Mo Hamoudi (27:32):
Yes, yes.
Karen Koehler (27:34):
Kind of like you , but in a totally different way
.
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (27:37):
The other thing is your divine archetype.
You are incredibly, have divinewisdom, you have a higher
consciousness, wisdom that Imean, is that three?
You know, that's three, you know, and so I think that that I've
(27:59):
seen you bring to bear and calma situation, and quick, you'll
walk into a conference room andthere'll be tension and you'll
just speak a couple of words andit calms everything down and
then you just start talking andeverybody just starts listening
and they trust what you'resaying and you, you like, lead
(28:21):
people towards the water.
You know you go.
this is the way come on, let'sgo and you don't use any of the
other two archetypes to get usthere.
But that's an incredibleleadership quality.
You have the last one.
I'm going to hold back a littlebit.
Karen Koehler (28:38):
All right.
Mo Hamoudi (28:38):
I don't want to tell you.
Karen Koehler (28:39):
Uh-oh.
Mo Hamoudi (28:41):
I'm not going to tell you the last one because
I'm still watching it, figuringit out out.
Mike Todd (28:45):
I'm still figuring it out well, I'll bring that one
come on what I think is thefourth one is is private karen
that you don't see very often,that likes to go to movies and
likes to go running to get peaceand, you know, be with her
(29:07):
family, stuff like that, whichis a totally different Karen
that most people don't see youknow, even people at work
probably don't see it very often, if they do ever.
But what I was going to say, too, about the, about the scary
part, the one of the scariestthings that I think that this is
the reason that other attorneysare afraid sometimes is that
(29:28):
you make a decision and youstick with it.
Karen Koehler (29:30):
You know that you're right when you've made
the choice.
Mike Todd (29:35):
And then you don't back off, which some people will
make that choice and then belike, oh, waffling back and
forth, did I do the right one?
I don't think you do that, atleast not that I've seen.
Karen Koehler (29:48):
Well, when we're talking about the decision,
that needs to be stuck with,because I will change my mind.
Mike Todd (29:54):
But that's different.
Karen Koehler (29:54):
Yeah, so what I feel like is I don't ever make a
threat.
I don't like threats.
I think that they're punk moves.
I think threats are just silly,and a lot of lawyers make a lot
of threats.
I just believe, like this isthe way it's going to be and if
you do this, then this is what'sgoing to happen, and I think
(30:18):
I've done it enough that peopleunderstand that that's true.
So then it helps them make aninformed decision about what
they want to do next, because Iam not.
I'm not just making a threatthat I may or may not follow
through.
Mike Todd (30:32):
No, you're going to follow through yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (30:35):
I mean.
Okay, so the fourth one, Mikekind of sort of touched on it,
so I think I can talk about it.
What it is is that it's because, like over the past year and
some months, that we've gottento know each other, I've gotten
to know you as a friend andthere is like this private
(30:55):
aspect to karen, but there's aplayfulness that is my favorite
archetype, because when you arein what I call in the sandbox
with karen and you know, when wecall in the sandbox with Karen
and we're in the sandbox andwe're just playing with our toys
and playing in our sandbox, Igot to tell you my time almost
(31:17):
stands still for me and it'sjust such a pleasurable place to
be in and sometimes when we'reworking we're in that space and
I could care about nothing elseand I just want to be there and
just keep going, isn't it just?
Karen Koehler (31:34):
true for all of us that one of the most fun
things that we can do is havefun.
Yeah.
Mike Todd (31:42):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (31:43):
I mean, that's why we like doing this.
Mo Hamoudi (31:45):
You even like it yeah.
Karen Koehler (31:46):
It's very fun.
I mean, first of all, we get toknow each other really well,
but it's also pretty fun andfunny and you know, I'm not
motivated by a lot of thingsthat other people are motivated
by.
I'm motivated to work because Ilike it, and I like it because,
of course, you know you cantalk about all the higher
(32:08):
principles.
You help people get justice andall that.
But I also like it because itbrings me a lot of joy.
That's right, that's right.
And yeah, I mean especially whenwe're kicking someone's ass
Again.
The reason why it feels so goodis because they deserve it.
Yeah, the reason why it feelsso good is because they deserve
(32:29):
it.
Yeah, and when you're justwatching them like choking and
you're just thinking you're notbeing gloaty because you want
that lawyer to suffer, butyou're looking at what that
lawyer is doing, which is tryingto destroy your client.
Mo Hamoudi (32:43):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (32:44):
For what For an insurance company Like gross?
Mo Hamoudi (32:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
For what?
For an insurance company?
Like gross, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you're also playful and funand kind of.
I thank you, you know.
So that's just.
I think that's, I guess, myfavorite archetype.
Karen Koehler (33:00):
Yeah, even though I like the other ones,
that's my favorite one.
So, how do we?
How, how?
Okay, mike, what's yourfavorite one?
Mike Todd (33:12):
Of you.
Karen Koehler (33:12):
Of you.
Mike Todd (33:13):
Of me.
Yeah, yeah, Mike.
What are your archetypes?
My favorite one is artistic,Mike Ah.
Musical Because that's when,when everything's clicking.
When I'm playing music, whetherit's alone or with other people
and it's usually more when it'swith other people that's when
(33:38):
everything melts away, exceptfor the music and the
interaction between you and theaudience and the other musicians
, and the weight of the world isgone and you fly.
That's that's why I like makingmusic so much and I think
(33:58):
people get that with all.
I'm sure that you Mo get thatwith poetry.
Yes, I think that you get thatwith work.
Um, when, when that stuffhappens happens, that's the
favorite.
And I mean I think thatbecoming more of who we are,
realizing our archetypes, for meit's a constant conversation in
(34:23):
my head.
You know everybody, or?
Karen Koehler (34:25):
most of the people I know have a monologue
that's running in their head.
Mike Todd (34:28):
But I got a team and they argue and some of them try
to be the be in charge and someof them don't want to be in
charge because like little momight not want to you know,
might sort of be timid to theother savage Moe.
Mo Hamoudi (34:48):
Yeah, ruthless Moe yeah.
Mike Todd (34:51):
But you can't let Ruthless Moe run the whole thing
because then you'd be apsychopath.
Mo Hamoudi (34:58):
I know yes.
Mike Todd (35:01):
But I think finding the balance in between all the
archetypes and having them worktogether at once is when you
become a person, and it takes along time.
Some people maybe that happensearlier, but most of the people
that I know still aren't thereyet and you know, I'm at least a
couple, three quarters of theway through my life.
I think so, but it takes a longtime and I think a lot of
(35:24):
people don't ever get therebecause they don't even realize
the archetypes or don't want toadmit them yeah, yeah what about
you?
Mo Hamoudi (35:33):
my favorite one is that's hard, I think, wisemore,
you know he is maturing more asI get older and I'm realizing
that he is going to be the nextstep in my personal and
professional evolution, that heleading the charge of the other
(35:58):
Mo's.
That's the one I'm focused onright now.
What about you?
Karen Koehler (36:07):
Well, first of all, I really love being a
grandma, but that's not, youknow, I mean, and that's you
know, that's granny personality.
But but for me, when everythingis clicking for me and and it
can be a variety it could bewhen I'm, when I'm in, when I'm
in the zone writing like when Iwrite a, like a settlement
demand, or when I write a, youknow, when I'm in the zone
(36:28):
writing like when I write asettlement demand, or when I'm
just writing, when I'm certainlyin trial, and I just love it so
much.
There's something about andit's the way that I process,
which is I prepare, obviously Iprepare a lot, but then I don't
(36:49):
orchestrate how it's the waythat I process, which is I
prepare, obviously I prepare alot, but then I don't
orchestrate how it's released.
I really trust myself.
I trust my brain to know it, Itrust myself, and when I'm in
the zone like that, it feelslike other world.
When it comes out, it's verymuch similar to music.
Yeah, it's just coming out andit's just the way it's meant to
(37:14):
be, and there might be a couplelittle boo-boos, but you don't
even care, but it feels so good,it doesn't matter it and it's
coming out and it's just it'severything combining.
it's not just creativity, it'severything combining.
It's not just creativity, it'severything that combines and
then comes out and it's justlike a flower.
Mo Hamoudi (37:33):
By the way, I think that's Michael Cairn.
Karen Koehler (37:37):
I mean when I read your writing.
Mo Hamoudi (37:39):
It is almost like playful and musical.
Mike Todd (37:43):
Especially when you're writing like after or
during trials, when you writewhat's happened every day, I
mean that's so fun sometimes.
Even when it's mad, or evenwhen it's frustrated, you still
approach it with alightheartedness that makes it
really fun to read.
Karen Koehler (38:01):
Thanks, guys.
Well, that was an interestingconversation about all of our
stuff.
I agree, thank you.
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