May 21, 2025 • 32 mins
Episode 18: The Art of Driving Defense Lawyers Crazy
In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™ podcast, Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi break down the tactics that send defense lawyers into a spiral and explain why that’s not only strategic but also necessary.
Welcome to the “Flim Flam Sauce”, the unapologetic art of getting under opposing counsel’s skin without ever crossing a line. From the perfectly executed “head fake” (where you let your opponent walk into their own trap) to exposing moral hypocrisy in open court, Karen and Mo show how controlled provocation can shift power, pressure the truth, and tilt the playing field back toward justice.
They also confront the legal profession’s obsession with “civility.” Because when your client’s case is on the line, making the other side comfortable should never be the priority.
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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mo Hamoudi (00:00):
Okay, we're going to share the secret sauce.
It's called the Flim Flam Sauce.
Do you know about the Flim FlamSauce?
Tell me.
The Flim Flam Sauce is like thesecret stuff that you go into
the kitchen and you cook withand nobody knows and you make a
delicious little little pie orsomething.
But what we're going to talkabout?
We're going to talk about thesauce of how to make defense
(00:21):
lawyers lose their mind and getunder their skin.
Karen Koehler (00:26):
Yes, we are.
Mo Hamoudi (00:27):
Okay, let's talk about this.
Karen Koehler (00:28):
I just love it so much.
Mo Hamoudi (00:29):
Okay, all right, Okay, what do you do Like what
do you do?
Karen Koehler (00:32):
Well, let me just say I'll tell some stories
because I have a long history ofthis.
There's nothing better thandriving a defense lawyer crazy
Like that is my goal.
We were just talking aboutgoals.
Driving a defense lawyer crazyLike that is my goal.
We were just talking aboutgoals.
My goal, to have fun in a caseis to just get underneath their
skins like as much as possible.
(00:52):
In fact, I just finished adeposition today.
It was on a foster care, sexabuse case and the defense
lawyer was being quite politeand everything like that.
He's being completelyreasonable.
And I said objection, objection.
And the client said well, whatam I supposed to do?
I said well, I said I objectbecause there's something about
(01:16):
the question that I didn't likeor I was just irritated by it.
What did you do?
And you know I was irritatedbecause I thought it was a dumb
question, but there's no judgehere to rule on it, so you just
answer the question and thedefense lawyer and he says, oh,
(01:39):
so I shouldn't answer thisquestion.
I said, yeah, this is one ofthose examples that he was just
asking you a really irritatingquestion and the defense lawyer
is just looking at me and he'spretending to laugh like ah, but
you know, I pretty much wasirritating the defense lawyer by
saying that, because, oranother deposition last week
(01:59):
where I told the defense lawyerthat her questions were
interminable what During thebreak, my god, over an hour
asking about, you know,background of an expert, yeah,
um.
But I'm going to go way back andand tell you a story that kind
of illustrates this.
And there's so many, there's somany examples I can't even
choose a couple.
(02:19):
Yeah, yeah.
So this is a case of the guythat he was driving in his
little two-seater car and he wasjust going.
He was going to go making aleft turn with a left arrow,
green arrow at an intersectionand a box truck coming the other
way went straight through thered light.
Mo Hamoudi (02:41):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (02:42):
And his car went underneath and he was almost
decapitated, but not quite.
He ended up not beingdecapitated, but horribly
injured.
Mo Hamoudi (02:49):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (02:50):
And it turned out that the guy driving the box
truck, when we later sued himand took his deposition, part of
his process of getting ready todrive every morning involved
getting up and smoking a bowl ofmarijuana before he went out.
So the question was that'snever going to come in because
(03:10):
the defense is going tostipulate that they're liable,
which is what, exactly what theydid?
Right before trial, they saidokay, we admit liability, so you
can't mention the marijuana.
However, being the deviousattorney that I am, marijuana,
(03:32):
however, being the deviousattorney that I am, um, he had
told his therapist that whenhe's driving yeah, our client he
would be very nervous becausehe was worried that other people
would be high from smokingmarijuana.
So that was in his therapynotes.
He was very nervous that peoplewere high or were drunk, yeah,
that he was going to be hurtagain, so he was very worried
about that.
So, judge gonzalez, who at thattime was a superior court judge,
(03:53):
steve gonzalez agreed with usthat because he specifically had
a ptsd trigger, that somebodywas high, that it was okay to
talk about this driver beinghigh okay so the defense lawyer
was furious about that thedefense lawyer hated me.
(04:16):
So again, devious lawyer that Iam I don't want to say devious,
let's say wickedly shrewd Ithought to myself okay, the
defense lawyer knows that thisis coming in, we just won this
motion, his client was high andthe jury's going to know about
it.
Yeah Right.
So we start choosing the jury,voir dire happens and we get to
(04:42):
opening statements.
No, we're in the middle of voirdire.
This is when it was in person.
So everybody's there.
We get almost to the end ofvoir dire and the defense lawyer
says how many people are?
This is before marijuana waslegal.
How many people are againstpeople driving with marijuana?
You're going to hear about this?
(05:03):
And everybody raises their handhand or half of them.
So he's trying to neutralizethis whole negative issue and I
never talk about it.
Then my opening statement comesand I never mention it.
And then he does his openingstatement and mentions it,
obviously, and we're aboutmidway through the trial and he
(05:25):
starts losing it because itbecomes clear to him that I'm
not going to mention it at all.
I don't talk about it at allbecause I don't want to get some
kind of like.
I don't want there to be anappeal, I don't want to create
an appellate issue by allowingthat in, even though the judge
said it could come in, so thisdefense attorney is the one that
(05:46):
introduces it.
I was talking about it over andover again.
I don't see anything.
And he was arguing to the judge.
He was super, super angry, hewas like shaking with rage and
he said they, you know, he wascomplaining about it.
And he said they had faked me.
And I I started laughing likeright in court because because
we did, yeah, um, just enraged.
(06:09):
He was so mad, he knew, he just, he knew after so much period
of time that, oh, he finally wasputting it together, yeah, that
we weren't doing it.
And he was so upset, he, justhe lost it in front of the court
and I will never forget thatmoment.
It was a highlight of thattrial when he, just he lost it
in front of the court and I willnever forget that moment.
It was a highlight of thattrial when he, when he accused
us of fake hic wait, fake head,faking him yeah which is a
(06:34):
basketball term yeah, a headfake a head fake, a head fake.
Yeah, they head faked me, theyhead faked you okay, okay.
That's an example.
Mo Hamoudi (06:45):
Yeah, I mean I got a lot of these.
Tell me some.
I mean, one thing I know isthat I know from lawyers that I
terrify them sometimes.
But a good example is a lawyerwho, after I represented
somebody at a hearing and I toldthem I represent them for all
(07:06):
purposes, not just a particularhearing.
I was at that particular issue,that particular case, and I
just sort of put that on therecord because I knew the lawyer
on the other side had a plan togo and approach my client after
my case was done and try to dosome investigation.
So lo and behold, that lawyersent somebody to go talk to my
(07:29):
client.
And I knew and I told my client.
I told him exactly what to do.
I said when they show up, Iwant you to say isn't Mo
supposed to be here and makesure that a record is made of it
?
And he did that.
Then I waited and the reasonthis lawyer sent that person to
(07:49):
talk to my client became anothercase and that case started.
I immediately filed papers fora hearing and I subpoenaed the
lawyer.
And the lawyer was a high-levellawyer at his office and
rattled him.
I mean, so that's an example ofgetting under somebody's skin.
(08:11):
I set that chain of events intomotion because I knew his
shortcomings.
I knew he couldn't help himself.
That was incredible because allof the lawyers from that
lawyer's office showed up to thecourtroom and the judge was
like, well, he's going to haveto likely testify.
(08:31):
It was a very uncomfortablemoment for the lawyer.
That's one of the examples.
The other one is that I've had acouple of lawyers quit their
jobs because I forced them tohave to confront who they really
are and their hypocrisy.
And I do it through the workand it puts an incredible amount
of pressure on them.
For example, if a lawyer comesinto a case and starts to take
(08:56):
some moral position about theircase or their client, I will
take that morality and I willflip it upside down and beat
them over the head with it untilthey give up.
And I will do that nonstop, 24hours a day, into the weekends.
And so in the case inparticular, it had to do with a
senior official lying, lyingunder oath, and this is somebody
(09:20):
who's celebrated and everybodyloved this person and I knew
they lied.
From the moment I saw the case,I knew this person was a liar
and I dug deep and I keptforcing them to come into court
and defend this person'scredibility.
This lawyer came into courtover and over again, in front of
judge after judge, and I knewfrom the beginning that this
person was a liar.
(09:41):
When I put it out clear as dayon the record that this person
was a liar, the other lawyermorally collapsed, couldn't do
it anymore.
Quit, that's what I will do.
Like, if you get on my bad side, I will come for you.
Like I will come for you, and Iwill do it within the confines
of the rules, within theboundaries.
Karen Koehler (10:00):
Mo is way meaner.
Just let the record reflect.
Mo is way meaner than me.
I am just like playing with it.
I find great joy in irritatingdefense lawyers, but Mo is like
seriously going to be out to getyou.
Just so you know so thatthere's no doubt here.
Like I'm the good one here,he's not the good one that you
want to mess around with.
Mo Hamoudi (10:20):
I mean, to me it's like.
It's like just like people whoare like hypocrites.
I can't stand hypocrites.
I don't think that'd drive younuts, but, like most defense
lawyers are hypocrites.
Karen Koehler (10:28):
So I started bringing emotion in all my
trials.
I have many emotions.
That drives defense lawyerscrazy.
One of them is to prohibit themfrom apologizing, because what
they'll do is they come out andthey say we are so sorry.
They tell the jury we are sosorry that this happened, but
it's not our fault, but we're sosorry that it happened, but
it's not our fault.
(10:49):
And I'm like it doesn't matterwhat the defense lawyer feels.
We don't care what the defenselawyer feels.
That's irrelevant and I alwayswin that motion.
They cannot say that they'resorry to the client, that they
feel sorry for the client.
They can't say that.
That's.
Mo Hamoudi (11:02):
That's pretty much always allowed how does that get
under their skin?
You think, you think it's don't, because that's what they want
to do.
Karen Koehler (11:08):
They want to do it and you want to like not let
them do it.
Mo Hamoudi (11:11):
Okay, there's another way you get other people
.
First of all, this is like Icall b.
Where's my little?
Like I should bring that bell.
You are cruel.
Oh, he got some.
Oh, you did.
Oh, you did get a little toy.
Yeah, okay, you are cruel.
First of all, uh-uh, I call BS.
You are not like, let's movethe record straight.
(11:33):
I have seen you.
You are vicious.
Karen Koehler (11:35):
I am vicious, okay, so I mean you, you are
vicious, I am vicious, okay, soI mean, but I take joy in it.
You do, I don't do it for Idon't do it.
You like you were gettingintense there.
I do it because it's amusing.
Mo Hamoudi (11:44):
Well, no, I'm amused by it, but at the same time
it's got to be intense, like wehave a lawyer right now that
we're.
Karen Koehler (11:49):
We have a couple lawyers right now that we've
been messing with.
I mean, I don't know I guess Iwill say this.
Mo Hamoudi (11:55):
It may come across as messing, but, like Karen,
they're being bad lawyers.
And, by the way, I hope themediator doesn't think like I
saw.
The mediator sent an emailsaying Kristen's the belt of
bee's knees.
I was like I bet you I'm not, Ibet you the message was.
That message was sent becauseit was like I am not.
That, yeah, that's so good.
(12:18):
I don't know, mike, do youthink it's fair for lawyers, um,
to be subjected to what karenand I described?
Mike Todd (12:28):
yes, because they pull the same dirty tricks they
do.
I mean, I, the one that Ialways remember was when you
were going against John HenryBrown Wow, who is a very, very
famous defense attorney, likealmost only a defense attorney,
(12:49):
yeah, and I mean he was doingstuff and then eventually, you
know, know, you guys won thatcase and, if I'm correct, he,
you know, didn't really feelgood about the way that he had
performed.
Karen Koehler (13:06):
No, well, he, you know that's the case.
I've talked about this beforewhere he was super insulting to
me and I called up and andbremner, one of his prior wives,
and said this isn't funny, ishe being funny?
She said, no, he's just beingmean.
And so then I figured like, oh,and do you think that I caved?
No, no, he was insulting me.
Mike Todd (13:26):
No, you drove him crazy.
Karen Koehler (13:28):
He was insulting me.
I drove him crazy.
First of all, he accused me ofage discrimination, because I
hit him at vanity, which he issuper, super vain, and so I
started hitting him at.
Did you call him an old guy?
I didn't call him in so manywords, it was all wordsmithed,
but yes.
I did See and.
Mo Hamoudi (13:48):
I'm the mean one.
Karen Koehler (13:51):
I just hit him right where it hurt like as much
as I could, and so he didn'tsay other stuff to me and I just
like hit him right back.
Mo Hamoudi (13:58):
I hit him right back as much as I could, and so he'd
say other stuff to me and I'djust like hit him right back.
Like hit him right back.
John's a big boy.
He can take it, apparently not,he really couldn't and he caved
.
Karen Koehler (14:04):
Well, no, but when you get to the trial, he
hated me so much.
If you talk to Farhad, who wasthere, what he would say is that
the guy was trying to caseagainst me.
The guy was trying to caseagainst me.
He was so focused on me andbeating me that he wasn't able
to see clearly.
Mo Hamoudi (14:22):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
That's to me is like acombination of combination of
like a defense I am part of that.
It's just outrightdiscrimination, like the one
thing with my experiences isthat, no matter what I did to
these lawyers, they stillrespect me Like they still are,
(14:43):
like you were just doing yourjob and you did it better than
me and you like caused me this.
I think a lot of never for me.
Karen Koehler (14:47):
Almost that never happens with me.
Mo Hamoudi (14:49):
Right, and so, like I think that, that's like I'm
irritating.
Mike Todd (14:52):
Right, yeah, and that's the way it should be, mo,
but it isn't a lot of the time.
Mo Hamoudi (14:57):
Yeah, but that's not cool because, like you beat him
at his own game Oops, you beathim at his own game, right.
Karen Koehler (15:04):
That's Dan.
What does Dan want?
Mo Hamoudi (15:07):
You beat him at his own game.
And then, when you beat him athis own game, you know he's like
he's a sore loser.
Like that's not cool, Like Idon't.
That just that's tellingthey're telling themselves.
I want to know is is that haveyou ever gotten so far
underneath a defense lawyer'sskin that it's made them want to
(15:28):
like give up the case and justbe like let's just settle, like
I just don't want to deal withyou anymore.
What do you want?
Like does that ever?
Karen Koehler (15:35):
happen not, it's not, it shouldn't ever happen in
in our fields.
No, okay, no, and plus, youknow we're not on.
We're not on a level playingfield and especially the longer
my career's gone on, I rarelyhave a case against one defensor
.
There's always multiple um,there's so many of them and the
(15:55):
budgets involved in the defenseare very large they're unlimited
, so if one of them doesn't getalong with me, they'll just
replace them with someone elseyeah, yeah, but yeah I do think
that, like this, there is like aI'm seeing a differing, there's
like a, there's like types oflawyers, but then there's like a
generational gap.
(16:17):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (16:18):
Like I see, like there's some lawyers I observe
that cannot take, can I?
It's like they cannot take it.
They cannot take the heat.
The heat is too much Like noteven you know.
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
Karen Koehler (16:33):
I do Maybe I'm not articulating my thing with
young I shouldn't say young withnewer lawyers.
I started noticing it maybe 10years ago.
I would often have moreproblems with newer lawyers
because they were trying toprove something Like oh, I'm
going to prove, you know, likeI'm this big bad lawyer and
they're going to prove that theycan take me on, so.
(16:56):
But that doesn't work at all,because I do, you know, I do the
snap snap I am, I am, I amvicious, I am yeah but in a
sweet way it is.
Mo Hamoudi (17:08):
You are very sweet.
Karen Koehler (17:09):
That's why you've seen my letter writing yes,
it's very sweet.
Mo Hamoudi (17:14):
Yes, I will my, my letter.
Karen Koehler (17:15):
Right?
This is how it typically goes.
Dear defense lawyer, you areabsolutely out of your mind.
I don't know what you're saying.
You are so dumb.
I really hope you're having agreat day, yes, and can't wait
to see you again.
Love Karen.
Mo Hamoudi (17:30):
I mean, that's kind of the formula is that, ever
since I've been working here fora little over a year, lawyers
come up to me and they go likewhat's it like working with
Karen Gohl or the Velvet Hammer?
(17:50):
And there's this perception outthere.
How difficult I am, by the way.
I sit back and I just go like,yeah, and they don't know, but
these are younger in the field,not age-wise, but newer lawyers.
And, like you know, thing is,is that, like your actions in
the public arena project animage?
Karen Koehler (18:10):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (18:10):
And I think that, like a lot of it is somewhat
driven by that.
And then you then come into acase and then, like this past
weekend, she sent this, this Iread this letter I'm like I spit
out the water I was drinkingbecause it was like this, like
this eight page letter to thesedefense lawyers, literally
(18:33):
putting in definitions anddictionaries.
Karen Koehler (18:35):
they haven't responded yet.
Mo Hamoudi (18:36):
No and I was.
I was just reading it, I gowhat is this?
And it was just like you wererattling them and you were.
You know, it was just.
You did not use the words, butyou said you're dumb, you're
idiotic.
What did you write in yourletter?
It makes no sense and you kindof just.
Karen Koehler (18:56):
I just told you, that's my formula.
Mo Hamoudi (18:57):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (18:57):
And have a nice day and hope you're having a
great weekend.
But the you know I don't meanto be disrespectful, but I am
disrespectful because you'reworking on the wrong side and
the whole point of the defenseis to get my client's case
thrown out Like they're theenemy.
To get my client's case thrownout Like they're the enemy.
(19:21):
So I remember a long time agowhere, really from my first job
as a defense lawyer, that thethought was well, you must be
very civil, you must be verycordial, and that's very, very
important.
And the judges always say Ihate fighting, I want people to
be very civil.
And then you go talk to yourclient and they're like why are
(19:43):
you being so nice to them?
Why are they being so nice toyou?
What's going on here?
I don't understand.
Aren't we in a war?
And so there's this perceptionof our state bar you can go
Google it that civility is anessential factor of practicing
law and I wrote editorialsagainst that.
(20:05):
Like there's a civility award.
They call it a professionalismaward.
It's a civility award.
I will never win that award.
I will never win the PlaintiffTrial Lawyer of the Year Award
from the defense bar becausethey're not my friends.
I don't need to make friends.
They're trying to destroy theclient's case and I'm not a
ruthless, mean attorney Like Ican name off some that are
(20:26):
really ruthless, mean attorneys.
I have some defense lawyers Iget along with really well while
we, while we, while we dobattle.
But I and my the title of my,of my article on civility was
civility, but with teeth.
You know, I'm all fine withbeing civil, but let's not muck
around here.
They're trying to get my casedismissed on technicality or any
(20:50):
way that they can thisinterperson.
They want to have nothing.
They don't want their clientsto be accountable and I'm
supposed to be civil back tothem.
Ok, I will be civil, quotequotes, but that doesn't mean
I'm not going to bite.
Mo Hamoudi (21:06):
I think that you can't.
To me this concept of civilitythere's a couple of.
I understand what it is.
It's like the idea that youcome into courtrooms and here's
where we resolve our differencesin a professional way.
I get that Fine, but there'salso a professional
responsibility to be zealous andpursue justice and those things
(21:28):
, unfortunately, areuncomfortable and require you to
force people to face someuncomfortable truths, and people
don't like that and it getsvery nervous.
What I don't like about thisconcept of civility is what
you've just described is goinginto a room and being like you
guys look like you're all insuits and you're all friends,
you know and like.
What does that mean for thepeople who are outside of this
(21:50):
room, who don't have the suitson?
Which is like people who arelike poor people who don't have
access to courtrooms.
What that looks like is thatthe system is fixed.
What I never liked when Iwalked into a criminal courtroom
is where I couldn't tell whothe public defender was and who
the prosecutor was, becausethey're all sitting there kind
of commiserating, and then youhad people in custody in their
(22:12):
jail garb sitting there waitingfor their lawyer to come talk to
them.
That disgusted me, thank you,so I'm totally with you.
Yeah, karen, I agree with youon that there was.
Karen Koehler (22:21):
There's here.
Here's a trial.
This, this happened in trialmany times, so we tend to be
technology technologicallyadvanced because mike comes and
sets us up with all thismachinery and we have all this
stuff.
Mo Hamoudi (22:33):
You do save us.
Karen Koehler (22:34):
The defense would either not use anything or they
would bring in the $20,000 aday model of the professional
person with the person there.
But often they wouldn't, and sowe would put our stuff on.
And then the defense would say,hey, whatever Fahad or Kristen
(22:57):
or whoever you know, whoever'srunning it, can you put up
exhibit number 405?
And I would look at them andsay I would let it be done once.
And then I would say, take allof our stuff down now, done once
.
And then I would say, take allof our stuff down now.
And then they would becausebecause I didn't want to get in
(23:17):
trouble from the judge or by thejury saying, well, she's not
being very nice when you're notputting up her stuff.
But it's like we're not your,we're not your staff, we're not
your secretary, do it yourself.
Now, that's what I say, thatwhat I would say outside the
presence of a judge.
But I would never be thatdisrespectful in the presence of
a judge.
But I will do whatever I can tomake sure that our tech is done
(23:38):
.
And when they say, hey, can youput up exhibit number 23,?
I'm going to be like I'm notgoing to even be listening to
them.
Mo Hamoudi (23:47):
Because they expect you to do it, because that's
like.
Karen Koehler (23:50):
That would be the civil way.
Yeah Like do it yourself.
Mo Hamoudi (23:53):
Yeah, like do it yourself.
No, I've have I.
I don't know if I've ever seenyou do that in life court.
I think I have seen you do thatin life court Actually.
Karen Koehler (24:01):
I will never help them.
I will never help them becauseour clients are sitting there
watching this.
Mo Hamoudi (24:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (24:06):
And and I know people are like well, you should
be civil and the judges willsay it.
Like you should be civil, I'mcivil, I'm civil.
I'm not hitting anybody, I'mnot kicking anybody, I'm not
spitting, I'm not saying badthings, but you're telling me I
need to be buddies with someonethat's trying to destroy this
client's case.
Who said I had to?
Yeah, no, sorry but everybodydoes it, I, but everybody does
(24:27):
it.
Mo Hamoudi (24:28):
I know A lot of people do it.
I'm not into that.
Karen Koehler (24:29):
Everybody.
Mo Hamoudi (24:31):
Most everybody, most everybody does it and you know,
it's like I don't know what itis.
Karen Koehler (24:36):
It's like the need to feel like the bar says
we're supposed to do it, andpeople just blindly listen to it
and think, well, yeah, weshould all be civil.
Really, why should we be?
Because the thing that you saidthat resonates the most is the
(24:59):
person who's seeking justice iscoming into court and they're
just watching everybody laughingand having fun together and and
it's so it does it just feelsrigged like and unsafe.
Mo Hamoudi (25:03):
I'm in an unsafe situation here, safe space.
Nobody has been able toarticulate to me in a way in
which I can say civility andzeal.
I mean, go read the ABA openingstatements, the RPCs.
They don't talk about civility,they talk about pursuing
justice, they talk about zeal.
They don't talk about this.
Everybody get along.
It doesn't say that.
(25:23):
So this is a made-up thing that, unfortunately, systems of
lawyers have created in order tomake themselves comfortable and
control the legal market,because it's their friends and
they have access to it and theylet people in and they let
people out and it makes it looklike it's a happy little party.
(25:43):
I don't want anything to dowith that, I just don't and I've
done just fine like doing that.
Look, I'm part of organizations.
I am all for giving back andparticipating.
I'm not the kind of guy that'sgoing to throw bombs and then
just sort of sit back and not doanything.
I'll go and get involved, butthis is what I am.
This is my personality.
Karen Koehler (26:09):
I remember my old partner Pat.
He told me one of my favoritestories, which is he was in
deposition.
Mo Hamoudi (26:13):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (26:14):
And it was pretty heated and there was other
people obviously in thedeposition and at one point
another one of the plaintifflawyers and one of the defense
lawyers in the middle of thedeposition were on the floor
fighting.
Mo Hamoudi (26:27):
Okay, that's a little ridiculous.
I never, ever, got to see thatI'm not talking about fisticuffs
.
I would like to see that.
Karen Koehler (26:33):
I would like to see that.
Mo Hamoudi (26:34):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (26:34):
I would too.
I mean, that's just prettyfunny.
I mean that's just like.
Mike Todd (26:39):
That needs to be in a YouTube video somewhere.
Karen Koehler (26:40):
We don't need TV in the practice of law.
There's so much amusing stuff.
Mo Hamoudi (26:44):
That's nuts, that's nuts, it's very, but you had a
lawyer chase you around thetable.
Karen Koehler (26:48):
That was not a lawyer, that was another client.
Mo Hamoudi (26:50):
Another client, okay Right.
Karen Koehler (26:51):
The thing is, the thing is for me, because I love
the law so much and I love howentertaining it is to me.
I am looking for those moments,and so I am rightly accused of
being a provocateur.
I definitely am a provocateur.
I want to like stab it and seewhat happens all the time.
Mike Todd (27:14):
And I think that's what makes you guys good lawyers
.
Karen Koehler (27:17):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (27:17):
Is you're willing to do that and you're willing to
play the game in such a way,because you know, talking about
technology stuff, it goes theopposite way too.
It goes the opposite way tooMost of the big corporations
that we've gone against.
When you go to the actual trial, they'll come in, like you said
(27:42):
, with a company that they'vepaid a bunch of money to, and if
you ask to use that stuff thenthey tell you you've got to
split the cost with them, whichthey are doing to our clients.
They know if you win, that moneyis going to get paid out of
what we won that's a good point,mike.
Mo Hamoudi (27:58):
Yeah, that's actually a really good point.
It is a good point we've never.
Karen Koehler (28:01):
We've never really trusted them either
because, like even I think inthe depths, like the switch
switch wasn't working, you knowthey no, yeah, they had they
messed.
Mike Todd (28:10):
uh, you know that company that was doing it.
They made mistakes, that wholetrial, yeah, but you use that to
your advantage too.
Mo Hamoudi (28:18):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (28:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (28:21):
Yeah, you know what?
Here's the thing.
I think a lot of lawyers thinklike we do, but they don't talk
about it openly and they pretendto be civil.
I just think that that's true.
These are all just unmanifestedthoughts.
Karen Koehler (28:37):
I don't think so.
I think that lawyers nowadays,with our bar associations, are
taught that civility is acivility is the goal.
Civility is a something thateverybody should try to achieve.
Mo Hamoudi (28:54):
Is strip matter civil.
Karen Koehler (28:56):
Strip matter is fairly civil, but he will, he
will.
If you make strip matter mad,he will be extremely angry.
Mo Hamoudi (29:04):
Okay, okay.
What about Kessler?
Karen Koehler (29:08):
He got the.
He got the dreaded plaintiffyerof the Year award from the
defense bar.
So I'm not going to sayanything about Kessler.
Mo Hamoudi (29:14):
Okay, how about the late—?
Karen Koehler (29:16):
Who would strive to get the Plaintiff of the Year
award from the defense bar?
Who are they awarding awards toNot?
That he doesn't deserve it.
He might have even been thefirst one.
He's such a likable guy.
Mo Hamoudi (29:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (29:30):
But I want to be the evil one.
Okay, one, he's, he's such alikable guy, yeah, yeah, but
like I want to be the evil one,okay, what about some people
that are more evil than me,david?
Mo Hamoudi (29:35):
benninger, oh okay, exhibit a.
Uh, what about other women?
Yeah, other women who yourespect, lawyers that, you would
say, are what you justdescribed like um, they would
mainly be defense defenselawyers.
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (29:54):
Which maybe it's changed, but I am not.
Yeah, I am an outlier in someways because I have these, you
know, quote unquote aggressivemale traits in this.
You know, quote unquote.
Mo Hamoudi (30:09):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (30:09):
An aggressive male package.
Mo Hamoudi (30:11):
Yeah, which goes back to my point last week.
Karen Koehler (30:14):
It's confusing for people.
Mo Hamoudi (30:16):
It's confusing for people and, like you know it's,
it's hard.
Not hard for me?
Well, for me it is.
I'm the minority in the office.
There's not enough male energy.
Karen Koehler (30:27):
Oh no, not the male energy, again Male energy.
Mo Hamoudi (30:31):
Male energy.
Mike Todd (30:34):
Male energy.
Male energy.
Sorry, you got to take thatphrase out of your vocabulary.
Karen Koehler (30:38):
I mean, yeah, you still dated Mike.
Mo Hamoudi (30:39):
But you see what I'm doing is.
I am provoking you.
Karen Koehler (30:43):
No, you're really not.
Is that my?
What Love by love.
George Benson came up, George.
Mo Hamoudi (30:51):
Benson.
Karen Koehler (30:53):
Because George heard me, he heard you, he like
started playing with my phone no, but that's, that's provocateur
, that's uh yeah it's not evenprovocative.
I just wanted to slap it out ofyou, but I just was trying to
withhold it okay, yes, yes, yes,yes, yes.
Mo Hamoudi (31:10):
Uh, it's like the Rodney Dangerfield.
I can't get any respect at all.
Karen Koehler (31:14):
However, you know going back and looping all the
way back to our subject.
Mo Hamoudi (31:17):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (31:20):
I love what we do .
Mo Hamoudi (31:22):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (31:22):
I do.
Mo Hamoudi (31:23):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (31:23):
And one of the fun things is getting under the
opponent's skin.
Mo Hamoudi (31:27):
The opponent's skin.
Karen Koehler (31:28):
It's very nice and I'll give you another
example, like and I do it onjust about everything lawyer
wrote this morning and said well, since we've been unable to get
a date for mediation, we'regoing to bring a motion today to
continue the trial because thisis the last day that we can do
it.
And I sent an email back andsaid well, you may not, you
(31:48):
might not want to do that,because you guys are the reasons
why we have been able to get adate, and you might not want to
do that because you guys are thereasons why we have been able
to get a date and you may notwant to look bad in front of the
court.
And, by the way, we justresolved the case set for May,
so we'll do mediation any day ofthe week.
We're available any day of theweek in May for you to do
mediation, so go ahead and bringthat motion.
Mo Hamoudi (32:10):
They did.
Karen Koehler (32:11):
And we're going to make them look stupid.
Mo Hamoudi (32:13):
Let's make them look stupid, all right.
Okay, we're going to share the secret sauce.
It's called the Flim Flam Sauce.
Do you know about the Flim FlamSauce?
Tell me.
The Flim Flam Sauce is like thesecret stuff that you go into
the kitchen and you cook withand nobody knows and you make a
delicious little little pie orsomething.
But what we're going to talkabout?
We're going to talk about thesauce of how to make defense
(00:21):
lawyers lose their mind and getunder their skin.
Karen Koehler (00:26):
Yes, we are.
Mo Hamoudi (00:27):
Okay, let's talk about this.
Karen Koehler (00:28):
I just love it so much.
Mo Hamoudi (00:29):
Okay, all right, Okay, what do you do Like what
do you do?
Karen Koehler (00:32):
Well, let me just say I'll tell some stories
because I have a long history ofthis.
There's nothing better thandriving a defense lawyer crazy
Like that is my goal.
We were just talking aboutgoals.
Driving a defense lawyer crazyLike that is my goal.
We were just talking aboutgoals.
My goal, to have fun in a caseis to just get underneath their
skins like as much as possible.
(00:52):
In fact, I just finished adeposition today.
It was on a foster care, sexabuse case and the defense
lawyer was being quite politeand everything like that.
He's being completelyreasonable.
And I said objection, objection.
And the client said well, whatam I supposed to do?
I said well, I said I objectbecause there's something about
(01:16):
the question that I didn't likeor I was just irritated by it.
What did you do?
And you know I was irritatedbecause I thought it was a dumb
question, but there's no judgehere to rule on it, so you just
answer the question and thedefense lawyer and he says, oh,
(01:39):
so I shouldn't answer thisquestion.
I said, yeah, this is one ofthose examples that he was just
asking you a really irritatingquestion and the defense lawyer
is just looking at me and he'spretending to laugh like ah, but
you know, I pretty much wasirritating the defense lawyer by
saying that, because, oranother deposition last week
(01:59):
where I told the defense lawyerthat her questions were
interminable what During thebreak, my god, over an hour
asking about, you know,background of an expert, yeah,
um.
But I'm going to go way back andand tell you a story that kind
of illustrates this.
And there's so many, there's somany examples I can't even
choose a couple.
(02:19):
Yeah, yeah.
So this is a case of the guythat he was driving in his
little two-seater car and he wasjust going.
He was going to go making aleft turn with a left arrow,
green arrow at an intersectionand a box truck coming the other
way went straight through thered light.
Mo Hamoudi (02:41):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (02:42):
And his car went underneath and he was almost
decapitated, but not quite.
He ended up not beingdecapitated, but horribly
injured.
Mo Hamoudi (02:49):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (02:50):
And it turned out that the guy driving the box
truck, when we later sued himand took his deposition, part of
his process of getting ready todrive every morning involved
getting up and smoking a bowl ofmarijuana before he went out.
So the question was that'snever going to come in because
(03:10):
the defense is going tostipulate that they're liable,
which is what, exactly what theydid?
Right before trial, they saidokay, we admit liability, so you
can't mention the marijuana.
However, being the deviousattorney that I am, marijuana,
(03:32):
however, being the deviousattorney that I am, um, he had
told his therapist that whenhe's driving yeah, our client he
would be very nervous becausehe was worried that other people
would be high from smokingmarijuana.
So that was in his therapynotes.
He was very nervous that peoplewere high or were drunk, yeah,
that he was going to be hurtagain, so he was very worried
about that.
So, judge gonzalez, who at thattime was a superior court judge,
(03:53):
steve gonzalez agreed with usthat because he specifically had
a ptsd trigger, that somebodywas high, that it was okay to
talk about this driver beinghigh okay so the defense lawyer
was furious about that thedefense lawyer hated me.
(04:16):
So again, devious lawyer that Iam I don't want to say devious,
let's say wickedly shrewd Ithought to myself okay, the
defense lawyer knows that thisis coming in, we just won this
motion, his client was high andthe jury's going to know about
it.
Yeah Right.
So we start choosing the jury,voir dire happens and we get to
(04:42):
opening statements.
No, we're in the middle of voirdire.
This is when it was in person.
So everybody's there.
We get almost to the end ofvoir dire and the defense lawyer
says how many people are?
This is before marijuana waslegal.
How many people are againstpeople driving with marijuana?
You're going to hear about this?
(05:03):
And everybody raises their handhand or half of them.
So he's trying to neutralizethis whole negative issue and I
never talk about it.
Then my opening statement comesand I never mention it.
And then he does his openingstatement and mentions it,
obviously, and we're aboutmidway through the trial and he
(05:25):
starts losing it because itbecomes clear to him that I'm
not going to mention it at all.
I don't talk about it at allbecause I don't want to get some
kind of like.
I don't want there to be anappeal, I don't want to create
an appellate issue by allowingthat in, even though the judge
said it could come in, so thisdefense attorney is the one that
(05:46):
introduces it.
I was talking about it over andover again.
I don't see anything.
And he was arguing to the judge.
He was super, super angry, hewas like shaking with rage and
he said they, you know, he wascomplaining about it.
And he said they had faked me.
And I I started laughing likeright in court because because
we did, yeah, um, just enraged.
(06:09):
He was so mad, he knew, he just, he knew after so much period
of time that, oh, he finally wasputting it together, yeah, that
we weren't doing it.
And he was so upset, he, justhe lost it in front of the court
and I will never forget thatmoment.
It was a highlight of thattrial when he, just he lost it
in front of the court and I willnever forget that moment.
It was a highlight of thattrial when he, when he accused
us of fake hic wait, fake head,faking him yeah which is a
(06:34):
basketball term yeah, a headfake a head fake, a head fake.
Yeah, they head faked me, theyhead faked you okay, okay.
That's an example.
Mo Hamoudi (06:45):
Yeah, I mean I got a lot of these.
Tell me some.
I mean, one thing I know isthat I know from lawyers that I
terrify them sometimes.
But a good example is a lawyerwho, after I represented
somebody at a hearing and I toldthem I represent them for all
(07:06):
purposes, not just a particularhearing.
I was at that particular issue,that particular case, and I
just sort of put that on therecord because I knew the lawyer
on the other side had a plan togo and approach my client after
my case was done and try to dosome investigation.
So lo and behold, that lawyersent somebody to go talk to my
(07:29):
client.
And I knew and I told my client.
I told him exactly what to do.
I said when they show up, Iwant you to say isn't Mo
supposed to be here and makesure that a record is made of it
?
And he did that.
Then I waited and the reasonthis lawyer sent that person to
(07:49):
talk to my client became anothercase and that case started.
I immediately filed papers fora hearing and I subpoenaed the
lawyer.
And the lawyer was a high-levellawyer at his office and
rattled him.
I mean, so that's an example ofgetting under somebody's skin.
(08:11):
I set that chain of events intomotion because I knew his
shortcomings.
I knew he couldn't help himself.
That was incredible because allof the lawyers from that
lawyer's office showed up to thecourtroom and the judge was
like, well, he's going to haveto likely testify.
(08:31):
It was a very uncomfortablemoment for the lawyer.
That's one of the examples.
The other one is that I've had acouple of lawyers quit their
jobs because I forced them tohave to confront who they really
are and their hypocrisy.
And I do it through the workand it puts an incredible amount
of pressure on them.
For example, if a lawyer comesinto a case and starts to take
(08:56):
some moral position about theircase or their client, I will
take that morality and I willflip it upside down and beat
them over the head with it untilthey give up.
And I will do that nonstop, 24hours a day, into the weekends.
And so in the case inparticular, it had to do with a
senior official lying, lyingunder oath, and this is somebody
(09:20):
who's celebrated and everybodyloved this person and I knew
they lied.
From the moment I saw the case,I knew this person was a liar
and I dug deep and I keptforcing them to come into court
and defend this person'scredibility.
This lawyer came into courtover and over again, in front of
judge after judge, and I knewfrom the beginning that this
person was a liar.
(09:41):
When I put it out clear as dayon the record that this person
was a liar, the other lawyermorally collapsed, couldn't do
it anymore.
Quit, that's what I will do.
Like, if you get on my bad side, I will come for you.
Like I will come for you, and Iwill do it within the confines
of the rules, within theboundaries.
Karen Koehler (10:00):
Mo is way meaner.
Just let the record reflect.
Mo is way meaner than me.
I am just like playing with it.
I find great joy in irritatingdefense lawyers, but Mo is like
seriously going to be out to getyou.
Just so you know so thatthere's no doubt here.
Like I'm the good one here,he's not the good one that you
want to mess around with.
Mo Hamoudi (10:20):
I mean, to me it's like.
It's like just like people whoare like hypocrites.
I can't stand hypocrites.
I don't think that'd drive younuts, but, like most defense
lawyers are hypocrites.
Karen Koehler (10:28):
So I started bringing emotion in all my
trials.
I have many emotions.
That drives defense lawyerscrazy.
One of them is to prohibit themfrom apologizing, because what
they'll do is they come out andthey say we are so sorry.
They tell the jury we are sosorry that this happened, but
it's not our fault, but we're sosorry that it happened, but
it's not our fault.
(10:49):
And I'm like it doesn't matterwhat the defense lawyer feels.
We don't care what the defenselawyer feels.
That's irrelevant and I alwayswin that motion.
They cannot say that they'resorry to the client, that they
feel sorry for the client.
They can't say that.
That's.
Mo Hamoudi (11:02):
That's pretty much always allowed how does that get
under their skin?
You think, you think it's don't, because that's what they want
to do.
Karen Koehler (11:08):
They want to do it and you want to like not let
them do it.
Mo Hamoudi (11:11):
Okay, there's another way you get other people
.
First of all, this is like Icall b.
Where's my little?
Like I should bring that bell.
You are cruel.
Oh, he got some.
Oh, you did.
Oh, you did get a little toy.
Yeah, okay, you are cruel.
First of all, uh-uh, I call BS.
You are not like, let's movethe record straight.
(11:33):
I have seen you.
You are vicious.
Karen Koehler (11:35):
I am vicious, okay, so I mean you, you are
vicious, I am vicious, okay, soI mean, but I take joy in it.
You do, I don't do it for Idon't do it.
You like you were gettingintense there.
I do it because it's amusing.
Mo Hamoudi (11:44):
Well, no, I'm amused by it, but at the same time
it's got to be intense, like wehave a lawyer right now that
we're.
Karen Koehler (11:49):
We have a couple lawyers right now that we've
been messing with.
I mean, I don't know I guess Iwill say this.
Mo Hamoudi (11:55):
It may come across as messing, but, like Karen,
they're being bad lawyers.
And, by the way, I hope themediator doesn't think like I
saw.
The mediator sent an emailsaying Kristen's the belt of
bee's knees.
I was like I bet you I'm not, Ibet you the message was.
That message was sent becauseit was like I am not.
That, yeah, that's so good.
(12:18):
I don't know, mike, do youthink it's fair for lawyers, um,
to be subjected to what karenand I described?
Mike Todd (12:28):
yes, because they pull the same dirty tricks they
do.
I mean, I, the one that Ialways remember was when you
were going against John HenryBrown Wow, who is a very, very
famous defense attorney, likealmost only a defense attorney,
(12:49):
yeah, and I mean he was doingstuff and then eventually, you
know, know, you guys won thatcase and, if I'm correct, he,
you know, didn't really feelgood about the way that he had
performed.
Karen Koehler (13:06):
No, well, he, you know that's the case.
I've talked about this beforewhere he was super insulting to
me and I called up and andbremner, one of his prior wives,
and said this isn't funny, ishe being funny?
She said, no, he's just beingmean.
And so then I figured like, oh,and do you think that I caved?
No, no, he was insulting me.
Mike Todd (13:26):
No, you drove him crazy.
Karen Koehler (13:28):
He was insulting me.
I drove him crazy.
First of all, he accused me ofage discrimination, because I
hit him at vanity, which he issuper, super vain, and so I
started hitting him at.
Did you call him an old guy?
I didn't call him in so manywords, it was all wordsmithed,
but yes.
I did See and.
Mo Hamoudi (13:48):
I'm the mean one.
Karen Koehler (13:51):
I just hit him right where it hurt like as much
as I could, and so he didn'tsay other stuff to me and I just
like hit him right back.
Mo Hamoudi (13:58):
I hit him right back as much as I could, and so he'd
say other stuff to me and I'djust like hit him right back.
Like hit him right back.
John's a big boy.
He can take it, apparently not,he really couldn't and he caved
.
Karen Koehler (14:04):
Well, no, but when you get to the trial, he
hated me so much.
If you talk to Farhad, who wasthere, what he would say is that
the guy was trying to caseagainst me.
The guy was trying to caseagainst me.
He was so focused on me andbeating me that he wasn't able
to see clearly.
Mo Hamoudi (14:22):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
That's to me is like acombination of combination of
like a defense I am part of that.
It's just outrightdiscrimination, like the one
thing with my experiences isthat, no matter what I did to
these lawyers, they stillrespect me Like they still are,
(14:43):
like you were just doing yourjob and you did it better than
me and you like caused me this.
I think a lot of never for me.
Karen Koehler (14:47):
Almost that never happens with me.
Mo Hamoudi (14:49):
Right, and so, like I think that, that's like I'm
irritating.
Mike Todd (14:52):
Right, yeah, and that's the way it should be, mo,
but it isn't a lot of the time.
Mo Hamoudi (14:57):
Yeah, but that's not cool because, like you beat him
at his own game Oops, you beathim at his own game, right.
Karen Koehler (15:04):
That's Dan.
What does Dan want?
Mo Hamoudi (15:07):
You beat him at his own game.
And then, when you beat him athis own game, you know he's like
he's a sore loser.
Like that's not cool, Like Idon't.
That just that's tellingthey're telling themselves.
I want to know is is that haveyou ever gotten so far
underneath a defense lawyer'sskin that it's made them want to
(15:28):
like give up the case and justbe like let's just settle, like
I just don't want to deal withyou anymore.
What do you want?
Like does that ever?
Karen Koehler (15:35):
happen not, it's not, it shouldn't ever happen in
in our fields.
No, okay, no, and plus, youknow we're not on.
We're not on a level playingfield and especially the longer
my career's gone on, I rarelyhave a case against one defensor
.
There's always multiple um,there's so many of them and the
(15:55):
budgets involved in the defenseare very large they're unlimited
, so if one of them doesn't getalong with me, they'll just
replace them with someone elseyeah, yeah, but yeah I do think
that, like this, there is like aI'm seeing a differing, there's
like a, there's like types oflawyers, but then there's like a
generational gap.
(16:17):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (16:18):
Like I see, like there's some lawyers I observe
that cannot take, can I?
It's like they cannot take it.
They cannot take the heat.
The heat is too much Like noteven you know.
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
Karen Koehler (16:33):
I do Maybe I'm not articulating my thing with
young I shouldn't say young withnewer lawyers.
I started noticing it maybe 10years ago.
I would often have moreproblems with newer lawyers
because they were trying toprove something Like oh, I'm
going to prove, you know, likeI'm this big bad lawyer and
they're going to prove that theycan take me on, so.
(16:56):
But that doesn't work at all,because I do, you know, I do the
snap snap I am, I am, I amvicious, I am yeah but in a
sweet way it is.
Mo Hamoudi (17:08):
You are very sweet.
Karen Koehler (17:09):
That's why you've seen my letter writing yes,
it's very sweet.
Mo Hamoudi (17:14):
Yes, I will my, my letter.
Karen Koehler (17:15):
Right?
This is how it typically goes.
Dear defense lawyer, you areabsolutely out of your mind.
I don't know what you're saying.
You are so dumb.
I really hope you're having agreat day, yes, and can't wait
to see you again.
Love Karen.
Mo Hamoudi (17:30):
I mean, that's kind of the formula is that, ever
since I've been working here fora little over a year, lawyers
come up to me and they go likewhat's it like working with
Karen Gohl or the Velvet Hammer?
(17:50):
And there's this perception outthere.
How difficult I am, by the way.
I sit back and I just go like,yeah, and they don't know, but
these are younger in the field,not age-wise, but newer lawyers.
And, like you know, thing is,is that, like your actions in
the public arena project animage?
Karen Koehler (18:10):
Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (18:10):
And I think that, like a lot of it is somewhat
driven by that.
And then you then come into acase and then, like this past
weekend, she sent this, this Iread this letter I'm like I spit
out the water I was drinkingbecause it was like this, like
this eight page letter to thesedefense lawyers, literally
(18:33):
putting in definitions anddictionaries.
Karen Koehler (18:35):
they haven't responded yet.
Mo Hamoudi (18:36):
No and I was.
I was just reading it, I gowhat is this?
And it was just like you wererattling them and you were.
You know, it was just.
You did not use the words, butyou said you're dumb, you're
idiotic.
What did you write in yourletter?
It makes no sense and you kindof just.
Karen Koehler (18:56):
I just told you, that's my formula.
Mo Hamoudi (18:57):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (18:57):
And have a nice day and hope you're having a
great weekend.
But the you know I don't meanto be disrespectful, but I am
disrespectful because you'reworking on the wrong side and
the whole point of the defenseis to get my client's case
thrown out Like they're theenemy.
To get my client's case thrownout Like they're the enemy.
(19:21):
So I remember a long time agowhere, really from my first job
as a defense lawyer, that thethought was well, you must be
very civil, you must be verycordial, and that's very, very
important.
And the judges always say Ihate fighting, I want people to
be very civil.
And then you go talk to yourclient and they're like why are
(19:43):
you being so nice to them?
Why are they being so nice toyou?
What's going on here?
I don't understand.
Aren't we in a war?
And so there's this perceptionof our state bar you can go
Google it that civility is anessential factor of practicing
law and I wrote editorialsagainst that.
(20:05):
Like there's a civility award.
They call it a professionalismaward.
It's a civility award.
I will never win that award.
I will never win the PlaintiffTrial Lawyer of the Year Award
from the defense bar becausethey're not my friends.
I don't need to make friends.
They're trying to destroy theclient's case and I'm not a
ruthless, mean attorney Like Ican name off some that are
(20:26):
really ruthless, mean attorneys.
I have some defense lawyers Iget along with really well while
we, while we, while we dobattle.
But I and my the title of my,of my article on civility was
civility, but with teeth.
You know, I'm all fine withbeing civil, but let's not muck
around here.
They're trying to get my casedismissed on technicality or any
(20:50):
way that they can thisinterperson.
They want to have nothing.
They don't want their clientsto be accountable and I'm
supposed to be civil back tothem.
Ok, I will be civil, quotequotes, but that doesn't mean
I'm not going to bite.
Mo Hamoudi (21:06):
I think that you can't.
To me this concept of civilitythere's a couple of.
I understand what it is.
It's like the idea that youcome into courtrooms and here's
where we resolve our differencesin a professional way.
I get that Fine, but there'salso a professional
responsibility to be zealous andpursue justice and those things
(21:28):
, unfortunately, areuncomfortable and require you to
force people to face someuncomfortable truths, and people
don't like that and it getsvery nervous.
What I don't like about thisconcept of civility is what
you've just described is goinginto a room and being like you
guys look like you're all insuits and you're all friends,
you know and like.
What does that mean for thepeople who are outside of this
(21:50):
room, who don't have the suitson?
Which is like people who arelike poor people who don't have
access to courtrooms.
What that looks like is thatthe system is fixed.
What I never liked when Iwalked into a criminal courtroom
is where I couldn't tell whothe public defender was and who
the prosecutor was, becausethey're all sitting there kind
of commiserating, and then youhad people in custody in their
(22:12):
jail garb sitting there waitingfor their lawyer to come talk to
them.
That disgusted me, thank you,so I'm totally with you.
Yeah, karen, I agree with youon that there was.
Karen Koehler (22:21):
There's here.
Here's a trial.
This, this happened in trialmany times, so we tend to be
technology technologicallyadvanced because mike comes and
sets us up with all thismachinery and we have all this
stuff.
Mo Hamoudi (22:33):
You do save us.
Karen Koehler (22:34):
The defense would either not use anything or they
would bring in the $20,000 aday model of the professional
person with the person there.
But often they wouldn't, and sowe would put our stuff on.
And then the defense would say,hey, whatever Fahad or Kristen
(22:57):
or whoever you know, whoever'srunning it, can you put up
exhibit number 405?
And I would look at them andsay I would let it be done once.
And then I would say, take allof our stuff down now, done once
.
And then I would say, take allof our stuff down now.
And then they would becausebecause I didn't want to get in
(23:17):
trouble from the judge or by thejury saying, well, she's not
being very nice when you're notputting up her stuff.
But it's like we're not your,we're not your staff, we're not
your secretary, do it yourself.
Now, that's what I say, thatwhat I would say outside the
presence of a judge.
But I would never be thatdisrespectful in the presence of
a judge.
But I will do whatever I can tomake sure that our tech is done
(23:38):
.
And when they say, hey, can youput up exhibit number 23,?
I'm going to be like I'm notgoing to even be listening to
them.
Mo Hamoudi (23:47):
Because they expect you to do it, because that's
like.
Karen Koehler (23:50):
That would be the civil way.
Yeah Like do it yourself.
Mo Hamoudi (23:53):
Yeah, like do it yourself.
No, I've have I.
I don't know if I've ever seenyou do that in life court.
I think I have seen you do thatin life court Actually.
Karen Koehler (24:01):
I will never help them.
I will never help them becauseour clients are sitting there
watching this.
Mo Hamoudi (24:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (24:06):
And and I know people are like well, you should
be civil and the judges willsay it.
Like you should be civil, I'mcivil, I'm civil.
I'm not hitting anybody, I'mnot kicking anybody, I'm not
spitting, I'm not saying badthings, but you're telling me I
need to be buddies with someonethat's trying to destroy this
client's case.
Who said I had to?
Yeah, no, sorry but everybodydoes it, I, but everybody does
(24:27):
it.
Mo Hamoudi (24:28):
I know A lot of people do it.
I'm not into that.
Karen Koehler (24:29):
Everybody.
Mo Hamoudi (24:31):
Most everybody, most everybody does it and you know,
it's like I don't know what itis.
Karen Koehler (24:36):
It's like the need to feel like the bar says
we're supposed to do it, andpeople just blindly listen to it
and think, well, yeah, weshould all be civil.
Really, why should we be?
Because the thing that you saidthat resonates the most is the
(24:59):
person who's seeking justice iscoming into court and they're
just watching everybody laughingand having fun together and and
it's so it does it just feelsrigged like and unsafe.
Mo Hamoudi (25:03):
I'm in an unsafe situation here, safe space.
Nobody has been able toarticulate to me in a way in
which I can say civility andzeal.
I mean, go read the ABA openingstatements, the RPCs.
They don't talk about civility,they talk about pursuing
justice, they talk about zeal.
They don't talk about this.
Everybody get along.
It doesn't say that.
(25:23):
So this is a made-up thing that, unfortunately, systems of
lawyers have created in order tomake themselves comfortable and
control the legal market,because it's their friends and
they have access to it and theylet people in and they let
people out and it makes it looklike it's a happy little party.
(25:43):
I don't want anything to dowith that, I just don't and I've
done just fine like doing that.
Look, I'm part of organizations.
I am all for giving back andparticipating.
I'm not the kind of guy that'sgoing to throw bombs and then
just sort of sit back and not doanything.
I'll go and get involved, butthis is what I am.
This is my personality.
Karen Koehler (26:09):
I remember my old partner Pat.
He told me one of my favoritestories, which is he was in
deposition.
Mo Hamoudi (26:13):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (26:14):
And it was pretty heated and there was other
people obviously in thedeposition and at one point
another one of the plaintifflawyers and one of the defense
lawyers in the middle of thedeposition were on the floor
fighting.
Mo Hamoudi (26:27):
Okay, that's a little ridiculous.
I never, ever, got to see thatI'm not talking about fisticuffs
.
I would like to see that.
Karen Koehler (26:33):
I would like to see that.
Mo Hamoudi (26:34):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (26:34):
I would too.
I mean, that's just prettyfunny.
I mean that's just like.
Mike Todd (26:39):
That needs to be in a YouTube video somewhere.
Karen Koehler (26:40):
We don't need TV in the practice of law.
There's so much amusing stuff.
Mo Hamoudi (26:44):
That's nuts, that's nuts, it's very, but you had a
lawyer chase you around thetable.
Karen Koehler (26:48):
That was not a lawyer, that was another client.
Mo Hamoudi (26:50):
Another client, okay Right.
Karen Koehler (26:51):
The thing is, the thing is for me, because I love
the law so much and I love howentertaining it is to me.
I am looking for those moments,and so I am rightly accused of
being a provocateur.
I definitely am a provocateur.
I want to like stab it and seewhat happens all the time.
Mike Todd (27:14):
And I think that's what makes you guys good lawyers
.
Karen Koehler (27:17):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (27:17):
Is you're willing to do that and you're willing to
play the game in such a way,because you know, talking about
technology stuff, it goes theopposite way too.
It goes the opposite way tooMost of the big corporations
that we've gone against.
When you go to the actual trial, they'll come in, like you said
(27:42):
, with a company that they'vepaid a bunch of money to, and if
you ask to use that stuff thenthey tell you you've got to
split the cost with them, whichthey are doing to our clients.
They know if you win, that moneyis going to get paid out of
what we won that's a good point,mike.
Mo Hamoudi (27:58):
Yeah, that's actually a really good point.
It is a good point we've never.
Karen Koehler (28:01):
We've never really trusted them either
because, like even I think inthe depths, like the switch
switch wasn't working, you knowthey no, yeah, they had they
messed.
Mike Todd (28:10):
uh, you know that company that was doing it.
They made mistakes, that wholetrial, yeah, but you use that to
your advantage too.
Mo Hamoudi (28:18):
Yeah.
Mike Todd (28:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Mo Hamoudi (28:21):
Yeah, you know what?
Here's the thing.
I think a lot of lawyers thinklike we do, but they don't talk
about it openly and they pretendto be civil.
I just think that that's true.
These are all just unmanifestedthoughts.
Karen Koehler (28:37):
I don't think so.
I think that lawyers nowadays,with our bar associations, are
taught that civility is acivility is the goal.
Civility is a something thateverybody should try to achieve.
Mo Hamoudi (28:54):
Is strip matter civil.
Karen Koehler (28:56):
Strip matter is fairly civil, but he will, he
will.
If you make strip matter mad,he will be extremely angry.
Mo Hamoudi (29:04):
Okay, okay.
What about Kessler?
Karen Koehler (29:08):
He got the.
He got the dreaded plaintiffyerof the Year award from the
defense bar.
So I'm not going to sayanything about Kessler.
Mo Hamoudi (29:14):
Okay, how about the late—?
Karen Koehler (29:16):
Who would strive to get the Plaintiff of the Year
award from the defense bar?
Who are they awarding awards toNot?
That he doesn't deserve it.
He might have even been thefirst one.
He's such a likable guy.
Mo Hamoudi (29:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (29:30):
But I want to be the evil one.
Okay, one, he's, he's such alikable guy, yeah, yeah, but
like I want to be the evil one,okay, what about some people
that are more evil than me,david?
Mo Hamoudi (29:35):
benninger, oh okay, exhibit a.
Uh, what about other women?
Yeah, other women who yourespect, lawyers that, you would
say, are what you justdescribed like um, they would
mainly be defense defenselawyers.
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (29:54):
Which maybe it's changed, but I am not.
Yeah, I am an outlier in someways because I have these, you
know, quote unquote aggressivemale traits in this.
You know, quote unquote.
Mo Hamoudi (30:09):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (30:09):
An aggressive male package.
Mo Hamoudi (30:11):
Yeah, which goes back to my point last week.
Karen Koehler (30:14):
It's confusing for people.
Mo Hamoudi (30:16):
It's confusing for people and, like you know it's,
it's hard.
Not hard for me?
Well, for me it is.
I'm the minority in the office.
There's not enough male energy.
Karen Koehler (30:27):
Oh no, not the male energy, again Male energy.
Mo Hamoudi (30:31):
Male energy.
Mike Todd (30:34):
Male energy.
Male energy.
Sorry, you got to take thatphrase out of your vocabulary.
Karen Koehler (30:38):
I mean, yeah, you still dated Mike.
Mo Hamoudi (30:39):
But you see what I'm doing is.
I am provoking you.
Karen Koehler (30:43):
No, you're really not.
Is that my?
What Love by love.
George Benson came up, George.
Mo Hamoudi (30:51):
Benson.
Karen Koehler (30:53):
Because George heard me, he heard you, he like
started playing with my phone no, but that's, that's provocateur
, that's uh yeah it's not evenprovocative.
I just wanted to slap it out ofyou, but I just was trying to
withhold it okay, yes, yes, yes,yes, yes.
Mo Hamoudi (31:10):
Uh, it's like the Rodney Dangerfield.
I can't get any respect at all.
Karen Koehler (31:14):
However, you know going back and looping all the
way back to our subject.
Mo Hamoudi (31:17):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (31:20):
I love what we do .
Mo Hamoudi (31:22):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (31:22):
I do.
Mo Hamoudi (31:23):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (31:23):
And one of the fun things is getting under the
opponent's skin.
Mo Hamoudi (31:27):
The opponent's skin.
Karen Koehler (31:28):
It's very nice and I'll give you another
example, like and I do it onjust about everything lawyer
wrote this morning and said well, since we've been unable to get
a date for mediation, we'regoing to bring a motion today to
continue the trial because thisis the last day that we can do
it.
And I sent an email back andsaid well, you may not, you
(31:48):
might not want to do that,because you guys are the reasons
why we have been able to get adate, and you might not want to
do that because you guys are thereasons why we have been able
to get a date and you may notwant to look bad in front of the
court.
And, by the way, we justresolved the case set for May,
so we'll do mediation any day ofthe week.
We're available any day of theweek in May for you to do
mediation, so go ahead and bringthat motion.
Mo Hamoudi (32:10):
They did.
Karen Koehler (32:11):
And we're going to make them look stupid.
Mo Hamoudi (32:13):
Let's make them look stupid, all right.
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