May 28, 2025 • 26 mins
🎙️ Episode 19: The Punk Move: When Abusers Use SLAPP suits to Silence Survivors
What happens when the accused turns around and sues the person making the accusation? Karen and Mo dive into the disturbing rise of SLAPP suits — lawsuits filed by powerful defendants to intimidate, drain, and silence sexual abuse survivors.
These lawsuits are calculated moves designed to scare survivors into silence by weaponizing the legal system. This episode explores how money, status, and power are leveraged to silence those who speak out.
Karen calls it a punk move. Mo breaks down the strategy behind it. Together, they explore why this tactic is so common in sex abuse cases and how it discourages survivors from coming forward.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Koehler (00:00):
Here's what I want to talk about.
Mo Hamoudi (00:01):
What do you want to talk?
Karen Koehler (00:01):
about.
I want to talk about publiclyknown litigation and a tactic
that raises my hackles andraises my suspicions about
people Hackles.
Mo Hamoudi (00:17):
What does a hackle mean?
A hackle, well, you've got tolook this up.
Okay, let me see what it is.
Karen Koehler (00:20):
So this is from my old English lit days.
Okay, so you have a typically avery powerful celebrity or
well-known male almost always amale and then you have a on the
opposite side you have normallya very young or some other
(00:41):
female that has accused them ofrape or assault or something,
and then what happens is the PRmachines take over.
Mo Hamoudi (00:49):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (00:50):
Okay, I get that the PR machine is going to take
over.
However, then a second thinghappens.
Mo Hamoudi (00:56):
What's the second thing?
Karen Koehler (00:57):
The person that's being sued now sues the
person suing them.
Mo Hamoudi (01:04):
Ah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (01:05):
They weaponize their defense.
Mo Hamoudi (01:07):
It's called an anti-slap suit.
Karen Koehler (01:10):
And some states have anti-slap and some don't.
Mo Hamoudi (01:12):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (01:14):
And do you know what that means?
Mo Hamoudi (01:16):
Yeah, it's basically meant to gag the
lawsuit, gag the person fromcoming forward with their
accusations.
Karen Koehler (01:22):
Yeah, and it's become very prevalent.
Mo Hamoudi (01:24):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (01:25):
And sometimes I'm thinking, you know, because
we're the court of publicopinion, I'm thinking, well, I
can't believe that about that,that that guy would have done
that.
Right, you might be thinking Ican't believe that guy would
have done that, but as soon asthey file that lawsuit against
the person suing them number one, I don't like it.
And number two, I start havingmy doubts of whether they did
(01:48):
something or not.
Mo Hamoudi (01:49):
Wait, wait, wait.
Okay, let me unpack that.
Whether they did something ornot, are you talking about the
accuser or the accused?
Karen Koehler (01:56):
The accused.
Mo Hamoudi (01:58):
So you start to think the accused becomes the
pursuer.
Karen Koehler (02:02):
The accused turns the tables and becomes the
aggressor.
And here's the other thing.
Normally the person that'ssuing the accused has very
limited means and normally theaccused I'm talking about this
particular type of lawsuit hasextraordinary means.
There are many times over 100millionaires, or there are
(02:24):
billionaires, yes, and they'resuing this little person that
dared to say that they didsomething bad to them and they
call it a shakedown.
They claim that they're tryingto bribe them Now.
Sometimes they are Now,sometimes they are.
There's a difference betweentrying to settle with someone
pre-suit and then trying to buysomeone by threatening to go
(02:52):
public if they don't pay me forsomething that didn't happen.
Mo Hamoudi (02:55):
Well, that's called extortion.
Karen Koehler (02:56):
Extortion, but in these lawsuits the word
extortion is almost always used.
Mo Hamoudi (03:02):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (03:04):
And this is what I want to talk about.
Mo Hamoudi (03:06):
Okay, let's talk about it Okay so.
Mike Todd (03:13):
Can I interrupt for a minute?
Don't you feel, though, thatthat tactic has been used so
much, like you said, that itkind of makes you question
whether or not something'shappened?
But I feel like, in myexperience, it's almost always
done by the, like you said, themore well-off whether it's a
corporation or an individualthat they have the means to do
(03:36):
it, and they use that as atactic, no matter what.
Karen Koehler (03:39):
It didn't used to be this much.
I'm starting to see this rash.
It's almost always these sexualassault cases where you start
to see it.
It's like, okay, let's imaginethis.
Imagine that you were abused inthe Catholic church for years
and then some time passed andyou went and sued the Catholic
(04:02):
church and then the CatholicChurch sued you for daring to
bring the charge.
That doesn't happen, right?
Most of the cases we bring, weallege somebody did something
and the insurance company isdefending it and they don't sue
back.
What's happening are theseindividuals who are worried
(04:25):
because their personhood that'swhat their income is dependent
upon.
So they're going to loseadvertisers, they're not going
to have movie opportunities,they're going to be shunned in
the music, Whatever it is.
Right now Diddy is on trial.
I don't know if he's been suinghis accusers.
Mike Todd (04:46):
Yeah, I don't know either.
Karen Koehler (04:47):
He's got his hands full, but other people
have and I don't want to namenames or anything like that,
although we could and even inthis whole thing with Blake
Lively and Justin Balzoni.
That's different than this,because they're more.
Mike Todd (05:04):
she's got way more money and power than he does.
Karen Koehler (05:06):
Yeah, but he still does, and so that one is
really a tip.
That's kind of an anomaly.
Those are two people that havethe means to go at each other.
One are arguably moresuccessful than the other, but
they're more on par.
Mike Todd (05:20):
And that was similar to the Johnny Depp case as well.
Karen Koehler (05:24):
Johnny Depp case , more similar, but not really.
Not exactly Amber Heard was, youknow again, you know, pretty
unequal.
But then you look at like Jay-ZI mean that's one of the more
recent ones.
I know we talked about ShannonSharp.
We talked about Shannon Sharp,these extremely powerful people
(05:49):
who, if you dare to say they didsomething wrong to you.
They are going to come afteryou and maybe it's going to be
so scary you're going to say Idon't want to be part of this,
I'm going to drop this lawsuit.
And now they're going to defameyou and say it never happened
and they're going to come afteryou and ruin you in the court of
public opinion and everythingelse.
I mean.
So there is no reason to dothat lawsuit other than to
(06:11):
destroy someone, the big,powerful person going against a
little person.
Because normally when you bringa lawsuit civilly right, you're
trying to get some kind ofjustice, whatever that is, and
for us we're always goingbackwards.
It's the little guy goingagainst the powerful because
they did something wrong andthey hurt us, the little guy,
(06:32):
and we want some kind ofaccountability for that.
This is a different use of thelegal process.
It's not being used for justiceitself, it's being used for the
court of public opinion becauseyou know you're never going to
get a dime out of the personyou're suing.
I mean right, that's not thepurpose.
It's a punk move.
Whenever I see it, that's whatI call it.
(06:54):
I said this is a punk move.
I don't like it.
It's becoming very common andthat's what I wanted to talk
about.
Mo Hamoudi (07:03):
Like defend that?
Well, I mean, I'll tell youlike, first of all, the people
who are being sued are not going.
Oh yeah, now I'm going to sue.
What is happening is thatthey're hiring lawyers and the
lawyers are saying all right,what's the story right now?
And I need to seize and controlthis story and turn the story
(07:23):
and start rewriting the story.
So this is a mechanism of likelawyer technique and really what
I would call savvy lawyers usethis as a technique to seize
back the narrative and put theother side on the defensive.
And when you're in thedefensive, my experience has
been you don't make gooddecisions.
You're just not thinkingthrough the case in a way in
(07:47):
which you want to be in controlof the case.
And so, yeah, it is a punk move, but it is a strategic move
because they want to put theperson who's saying look at me,
I'm the protagonist, no, you'renot.
You're actually a little bitmore complicated.
You're maybe pro-tag, anti-tag,and that's the idea.
Karen Koehler (08:07):
So you think that it's okay.
Mo Hamoudi (08:09):
I'm not saying it's okay, I'm saying that it's a
strategy.
I don't fundamentally agree withit.
Because, in particular, whenyou're talking about someone who
is vulnerable, who has takenthe leap of courage to come up
and say, hey, I've been abusedor I've been marginalized, and
then you come out and do thatNow I almost invite that kind of
(08:32):
technique.
If I'm representing themarginalized person, I invite it
because I will weaponize whatthey did and beat them over the
head with it.
I think that moves like thatwill reveal themselves.
I think where they areeffective, karen, is when you
don't have a good case, becauseif it's really effective, you
(08:53):
never had a good case to beginwith the accusation, there were
problems with it and you didn'tproperly vet and prepare the
accusation to be revealed in acourt of law in the first
instance, because some of thisstuff works and it's because the
accusation was be revealed in acourt of law in the first
instance, because some of thisstuff works and it's because the
accusation was not solid.
So it's not about likesometimes you know, just it
reveals the truth of theaccusation.
(09:14):
So I don't know.
I mean, if you were accused ofsomething, wouldn't you want to
come out and say wait a minute,that's not true just prove it in
your case.
Karen Koehler (09:22):
Why do you have to come out and separately sue
someone?
Mo Hamoudi (09:25):
Well, what if you know in your heart that it's not
true?
Karen Koehler (09:27):
Then you say it's not true and prove it.
Mo Hamoudi (09:29):
But then you are like paying money for a lawyer
to have to defend an accusation.
Mike Todd (09:33):
That's not accurate, I don't agree.
Mo Hamoudi (09:35):
Well then, so what are you supposed to do?
Just sit back and just gothrough the process?
Karen Koehler (09:38):
I think you sit back and you fight the process
and prove yourself.
Okay, let's say this yourepresent someone right.
And it's a federal publicdefender.
Mo Hamoudi (09:46):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (09:47):
And the government says you did this and
you're like, yeah, this isfalse, you don't get to go sue
them.
You have to wait till the caseis over, prove you're innocent
and then go sue them.
Mo Hamoudi (09:55):
Yeah, because that's For abuse of process.
Yeah, but that process istotally different.
But within the process I havegone back and accused them of
wrongdoing within the process.
Karen Koehler (10:05):
Within the process?
Yes, okay, so then— and I don'teven like process- Wait, what
do you mean?
Mo Hamoudi (10:12):
But I guess—.
Karen Koehler (10:12):
This is just one of these things that drives me
crazy.
Mo Hamoudi (10:14):
Okay, well, what drives you crazy about it?
Karen Koehler (10:17):
I think it's abusive For someone to come out
with that much power and use thejustice system to annihilate
someone, that you know what.
Everyone has the right to doeverything.
There's bad lawyers.
There's good lawyers.
Everybody has a right to file alawsuit.
Mo Hamoudi (10:34):
Yeah, I just think that when somebody does that and
you have a strong case, it'sjust telling that they're weak
and you take it, come on,they're going to do it.
I don't agree with it, butthey're going to do it anyways.
Karen Koehler (10:47):
No, I don't go with that.
You can't say that you don'tagree with it, but it's okay.
That's not a good answer.
Mo Hamoudi (10:55):
I object, you object?
Okay, all right, I think I'mthinking about it as a lawyer
and let me think about it as anon-lawyer.
Karen Koehler (11:02):
Here's what I'm doing.
I'm putting you in animpossible situation with
something that was just buggingme on the way here.
Yeah, because I saw it in thepaper and it's like it just
keeps happening, happening,happening.
I think it's repulsive, I don'tlike it and I'm telling it to
you and you're defending it,which I want you to do because I
think it's indefensible.
Mo Hamoudi (11:22):
I mean, I don't know about indefensible, mike.
Karen Koehler (11:24):
I mean if you're attacked and you know that the
attack on you lacks totalcredibility and your lawyer
says— you bring a CR-11 sanctionviolation, you take it to the
court and have the court saythis is a meritless lawsuit and
have it thrown out.
Mo Hamoudi (11:39):
Wouldn't you want your reputation defended on the
offensive, Mike, rather thanfrom the defensive position, by
having somebody file a suit andsay you know?
Mike Todd (11:51):
I would have to say yes if I knew that I was wrong,
but I also feel that I mean, youknow, I can look at our own
president as an example ofsomeone who uses that tactic
every single time he has a casebrought up against him.
And I won't say that I know thathe's done some of the stuff
that he's accused of, but Ithink that it's telling when
(12:17):
that tactic is used every timeautomatically and I just think
that I don't want to use theterm that he has started using
but when our justicism isweaponized in the way that it
seems to be getting weaponizedmore and more these days against
(12:37):
the marginalized individuals.
It's another way that attorneysget a bad name.
Yeah, and I think that you knowthe people that use that don't
care that they have a bad name.
They don't mind, they don'thave any problem with being
(13:01):
perceived as bad people becausethey think they're doing what
they need to do for theirclients.
Yeah, which is part of what youguys promise to do when you
become lawyers.
That's right, that's right, butI also feel that always going
to that automatically makes therest of the public go.
(13:22):
Lawyers suck.
Karen Koehler (13:28):
And I would never want to bring a lawsuit
against someone that's morepowerful than me.
Mike Todd (13:30):
No, that's the thing I mean.
Before I worked here, I alwaysthought there's no reason in any
situation to get a lawyerbecause I can't afford to get
one.
That would be good enough tomake sure that I want so.
And that's the same with mostpeople that I know they get.
(13:53):
In any situation that they getinto which may involve the need
for an attorney, they oftendon't think that they're good
enough for it.
Mo Hamoudi (14:05):
That's.
I like the way Mike just talkedabout that because, like the
technique that you're talkingabout about, and if the public
sees it as like, wait a minute,if I ever think about bringing a
lawsuit that could happen to me, right, and then they go, I
don't want to talk to a lawyer,I don't want to deal with that.
That's embarrassing andhumiliating and stressful.
(14:26):
That I agree with you.
In that sense it is anti-accessto justice.
It creates a disincentive towant to access the system.
I think I agree with that.
Karen Koehler (14:36):
I think I'm persuaded that in that light,
there was a great attorney,Bruce Johnson, here, who
championed anti-SLAPP for sexabuse cases in Washington state.
I can't remember if it passedor not, but with that exception,
because it is heavily used insex abuse cases and you know,
(14:58):
there are so many mechanismsalready in place.
There's something calledmandatory counterclaims and
mandatory cross claims, whichmeans you don't even need.
Why do you need to file aseparate lawsuit?
Which means you don't even needit.
Why do you need to file aseparate lawsuit?
A mandatory counterclaim meansI sue you for X and then you sue
me.
You say, well, you did this tome.
(15:20):
It goes, you did this to me,I'm suing you, I'm suing you.
Mo Hamoudi (15:24):
You did this to me.
Karen Koehler (15:24):
You come back and you sue me in the same case,
but these guys are filingtotally separate actions.
Mo Hamoudi (15:32):
And I wonder, I mean I don't know.
I mean if it's happening or yousaw something in the newspaper
that you saw this happen, it'sjust a constant litany.
Karen Koehler (15:41):
It's all the time.
I'm just seeing that it'sbecoming more and more common,
and it's probably been becomingmore and more common in the past
five years and now it's everytime.
Mo Hamoudi (15:53):
Okay, let's say you and I represent somebody, and
this is a marginalized person,and we bring a lawsuit against
Big Goliath, big Big Goliath.
Karen Koehler (16:03):
Oh, let's stay away from that topic.
Mo Hamoudi (16:06):
Like the big guy we can't talk about this.
Karen Koehler (16:11):
What are you talking about?
Sex abuse case?
Mo Hamoudi (16:13):
yeah, it's a hypothetical sex abuse, okay,
like big, big person.
And then the big person goes toanother court files, another
lawsuit, okay, what do we do?
Do we just sit there and likego no, no, what do we do?
What do we do strategically?
Well, but the no, no, what dowe do?
What do we do strategically?
Karen Koehler (16:31):
Well, but the problem is, for the little
person is most plaintiff.
Firms are small.
There's only so many resources.
Mo Hamoudi (16:38):
So we have us and we represent the little person.
What do we go tell this littleperson?
Give up.
Karen Koehler (16:44):
No.
Mo Hamoudi (16:45):
Okay, what do we say?
Karen Koehler (16:46):
We'll go over there too.
Mo Hamoudi (16:47):
We'll go over there too, Okay.
Karen Koehler (16:49):
But how many people can do that?
Mike Todd (16:51):
Not many.
Mo Hamoudi (16:52):
Not many.
Karen Koehler (16:53):
And the resources are huge.
So here, number one you almostonly see this in sex abuse cases
.
That's where you see it,because in sex abuse cases
people are more vulnerablebecause, unless you were
recording it with the video,it's between two people or a few
people.
There's not a lot of witnesses.
(17:14):
Normally in a sex abuse case,as you know, there's a
perpetrator, alleged perpetratorand the person that's being
victimized.
That's it.
So there's like how do youprove that?
We have that right now?
Right, we have a lot of issuesin cases that are old and
involve sex abuse.
You can't, it's hard to proveit.
Mike Todd (17:33):
So yes, well, and then add up to if there was
anyone else present during thesituation, that's on the side of
the accused.
The accuser automatically haspeople that are backing up the
person that she's accusing orhe's accusing.
Karen Koehler (17:50):
The defense will do several things.
One they'll attack that personand say they're mentally in fit,
they're mentally in sound,they're making this up.
I mean, it's like a playbook,it's the same defense.
So what I'm saying, though, isthat's what we're seeing right
now sex abuse cases but it'salso a slippery slope.
OK, all right sex abuse cases,but it's also a slippery slope.
(18:13):
Okay, all right.
What happens if we were to sueJohn Doe for killing our client,
for running over them on asidewalk, and then that company
turned around and sued us forsuing them?
Mo Hamoudi (18:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, talking about sex abuse, Ithink it's the nature of sex
abuse and what it requiressomebody to go through to talk
about it, and so I think thatsuits are used in those cases
because they want to make theaccusing person go.
(18:44):
The nature about sex abuse isthat because you don't disclose
it immediately and the's becauseyou don't disclose it
immediately and the reason whyyou don't disclose it
immediately has nothing to doabout whether or not it happened
to you.
It's that you feel utterlyalone in a secret that you're
keeping, because you have tokeep this secret and you think
that you can't disclose thesecret.
And then something happens inyour life and you feel that you
(19:07):
can share it with somebody.
Or you go through a process andthen you realize, oh, I can do
something about this.
What happened to me was notright, and you have to sum up
all of this courage to come andspeak about it openly, publicly,
in documents, in the courtroom.
Now what the defense is doingthere is they're going.
I know you came originally froma place where this was a secret
(19:30):
and I want you to go back tothat place.
Karen Koehler (19:33):
Correct.
Mo Hamoudi (19:33):
Right, and here you go, and here's this suit.
Go back to that place.
Go back to that place, and Ithink that that is the
disgusting part of thistechnique.
That's what the lawyer is doingis to force you back into that
dark place, to that space thatyou're utterly alone.
Here are the consequences forcoming out and speaking about
(19:55):
this, and you want to speak more.
It's going to cost you evenmore.
Karen Koehler (19:58):
And look at the.
It's not just the power.
In terms of money dynamics,there's often a huge age
difference.
Mo Hamoudi (20:06):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (20:07):
I mean.
So the person that's beingvictimized does not have a lot
of life experience and is, youknow?
And plus, with sex abuse casesthere's shame, you know.
Yes, so there's a lot ofcomplexities in there.
Mo Hamoudi (20:23):
But also when you're like, if you're
experiencing sex abuse as aminor, you don't remember
details like you would as anadult.
Things you remember aredifferent, even though it's true
that it happened.
And so when somebody comes outand says, well, no, you're a
liar and you have defamed me,and then you start to question
(20:48):
your own reality and you startto lose your mind and you start
to think that, like, wait aminute, was it exactly like that
?
That's the intention is tostart to question, plant the
seed in your brain that theseare all illusions, this didn't
really happen to you.
And then what that does is that,as the abused person, you're
going to your lawyer, going,maybe this wasn't a good idea.
(21:09):
I don't know if I want to dothis.
Are you sure it's a good idea?
And you start to doubt yourself.
And so I think that you know,yeah, I mean that is a punk move
.
The more I think about it, itangers me.
I mean I changed it.
I mean I just didn't thinkabout it.
Through that lens, through thatprocess, I just had to sort of
it's bully behavior.
Karen Koehler (21:30):
It's a punk move and it's become normal.
Mike Todd (21:39):
Well, don't you also think in a way, it's taking the
power that the accused wieldedover the person and using it
against them?
Karen Koehler (21:45):
again, let's say that it's even.
Let's say that the person thatsued them isn't 100 right, but
there's some truth in there, butnot 100 right, um, and let's
say that.
But that person, of course, islike 20 years older than and and
about you know, 15 milliontimes poorer than the person
(22:09):
they're suing.
Let's just go down that road so, and let's say that drugs were
involved.
That's where I was going to gotoo, or alcohol was involved or
you know anything else thatcomes into some of these
behaviors.
Mike Todd (22:25):
Which is going to affect their memory or possibly
create memories that they didn'tactually have.
Karen Koehler (22:32):
For both sides, yeah for both sides, yeah for
both sides.
And then they approach the guyand say you know, I remember
this and this isn't right, andmaybe they're in counseling or
something and they were told toconfront their accuser.
I mean who knows?
We don't know right, we don'tknow what goes on and the person
(22:54):
that they confront just blowsthem off.
That's when you typically see alawsuit.
A lawsuit typically doesn'tjust come out of the blue.
It typically comes when someonehas and this is true for, like
a car accident case, for example, if the person that hits you is
going to visit you in thehospital and take care of you
(23:14):
know, like what can I do to helpyou and do everything that they
can from day one, you feel verydifferently about them than if
they don't even send you a getwell card.
After a month you know inhospital, when you no longer can
use your legs, and they declineto pay any of your medical
bills ever until there's a judgethat orders them to do so at
the end of a case, after a juryhas entered their verdict.
(23:37):
I mean, that's what it lookslike.
So if people acknowledge you andhelp you and you don't, you
know and see you and care foryou, you don't really why would
you need a lawyer?
Why would a person need alawyer If someone's going to say
I'm sorry that I caused youthis terrible stuff?
I'm going to do right by you.
(23:57):
Let's work it out, okay, youdon't need a lawyer.
Let's work it out.
Okay, you don't need a lawyer,you need a lawyer.
Well, you see the lawyerscoming in is because you need
help.
You can't get any helpwhatsoever.
The person has iced you.
They won't talk to you becauseinsurance companies say don't
talk that's what I was going tosay.
Mike Todd (24:13):
The insurance companies almost always
insurance companies.
Karen Koehler (24:15):
They stop everything from happening and
you have no other options.
You're going to, you're goingto take a lawsuit and you're
going to stay in that lawsuit if, instead of paying your claim
quickly, they start to dosurveillance on you even when
you're coming out of a hospital.
Mike Todd (24:34):
Dig into your social media and your past.
Karen Koehler (24:36):
Yeah, they demand to see everything.
Mike Todd (24:38):
They talk to all your old girlfriends and try to get
crazy questions about your sexlife.
Karen Koehler (24:44):
Oh, my God, and you know that's when you're
going to file a lawsuit, orreally, you know, stick, stick
to a lawsuit, because you're so,what else are you going to do?
You're so, you're so pumped,yeah.
So here we have it like this,this whole thing, it has become
very normalized.
Um, I mean, I just keep seeingit happen time and time and time
(25:07):
again.
And then what's really sad iswhen the smaller persons, just
their, their lawyer, gives upbecause now what are they
supposed to do?
They're supposed to prosecute alawsuit and defend a lawsuit
against them, like, and theydidn't set out to do that.
So maybe I don't feel so sorryfor their lawyer, but their
lawyer, and maybe because maybetheir lawyer could have gotten
(25:27):
more help or something, but may,and you know what, there are
times when people bring falseallegations yeah, that's clearly
.
Mike Todd (25:35):
Then there's always that I don't think that it
happens nearly as much as theaccused want you to think, but
it has happened it has happenedyeah, it has happened.
Mo Hamoudi (25:45):
I mean, no, it's, it's.
I think that I would beinterested to see the cases that
are being used on, and it'sprimarily that sexual abuse
cases I think that's the problemalmost entirely, entirely,
those like if it's a corporationsuing another corporation I
could care less.
But you know it's like oh, youdid another suit against the
(26:09):
corporation, oh.
But I think that the dynamic ofsexual abuse, it's where it's
most prevalent and it has to dowith the power of the abuser
over the abused.
It is leveraging that dynamicand saying like I still have
power over you, Don't forgetthat.
And it's the lawyer knows that.
And if a lawyer ever did thatin one of my cases, I call him
(26:32):
up and I tell him you're a punk,because you just taught me that
word.
Karen Koehler (26:37):
Yes, that's my thought for today.
Mo Hamoudi (26:42):
That's's a good thought.
That's a good thought.
Yeah, feel lucky punk.
That's a short one.
Here's what I want to talk about.
Mo Hamoudi (00:01):
What do you want to talk?
Karen Koehler (00:01):
about.
I want to talk about publiclyknown litigation and a tactic
that raises my hackles andraises my suspicions about
people Hackles.
Mo Hamoudi (00:17):
What does a hackle mean?
A hackle, well, you've got tolook this up.
Okay, let me see what it is.
Karen Koehler (00:20):
So this is from my old English lit days.
Okay, so you have a typically avery powerful celebrity or
well-known male almost always amale and then you have a on the
opposite side you have normallya very young or some other
(00:41):
female that has accused them ofrape or assault or something,
and then what happens is the PRmachines take over.
Mo Hamoudi (00:49):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (00:50):
Okay, I get that the PR machine is going to take
over.
However, then a second thinghappens.
Mo Hamoudi (00:56):
What's the second thing?
Karen Koehler (00:57):
The person that's being sued now sues the
person suing them.
Mo Hamoudi (01:04):
Ah, yeah.
Karen Koehler (01:05):
They weaponize their defense.
Mo Hamoudi (01:07):
It's called an anti-slap suit.
Karen Koehler (01:10):
And some states have anti-slap and some don't.
Mo Hamoudi (01:12):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (01:14):
And do you know what that means?
Mo Hamoudi (01:16):
Yeah, it's basically meant to gag the
lawsuit, gag the person fromcoming forward with their
accusations.
Karen Koehler (01:22):
Yeah, and it's become very prevalent.
Mo Hamoudi (01:24):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (01:25):
And sometimes I'm thinking, you know, because
we're the court of publicopinion, I'm thinking, well, I
can't believe that about that,that that guy would have done
that.
Right, you might be thinking Ican't believe that guy would
have done that, but as soon asthey file that lawsuit against
the person suing them number one, I don't like it.
And number two, I start havingmy doubts of whether they did
(01:48):
something or not.
Mo Hamoudi (01:49):
Wait, wait, wait.
Okay, let me unpack that.
Whether they did something ornot, are you talking about the
accuser or the accused?
Karen Koehler (01:56):
The accused.
Mo Hamoudi (01:58):
So you start to think the accused becomes the
pursuer.
Karen Koehler (02:02):
The accused turns the tables and becomes the
aggressor.
And here's the other thing.
Normally the person that'ssuing the accused has very
limited means and normally theaccused I'm talking about this
particular type of lawsuit hasextraordinary means.
There are many times over 100millionaires, or there are
(02:24):
billionaires, yes, and they'resuing this little person that
dared to say that they didsomething bad to them and they
call it a shakedown.
They claim that they're tryingto bribe them Now.
Sometimes they are Now,sometimes they are.
There's a difference betweentrying to settle with someone
pre-suit and then trying to buysomeone by threatening to go
(02:52):
public if they don't pay me forsomething that didn't happen.
Mo Hamoudi (02:55):
Well, that's called extortion.
Karen Koehler (02:56):
Extortion, but in these lawsuits the word
extortion is almost always used.
Mo Hamoudi (03:02):
Yes.
Karen Koehler (03:04):
And this is what I want to talk about.
Mo Hamoudi (03:06):
Okay, let's talk about it Okay so.
Mike Todd (03:13):
Can I interrupt for a minute?
Don't you feel, though, thatthat tactic has been used so
much, like you said, that itkind of makes you question
whether or not something'shappened?
But I feel like, in myexperience, it's almost always
done by the, like you said, themore well-off whether it's a
corporation or an individualthat they have the means to do
(03:36):
it, and they use that as atactic, no matter what.
Karen Koehler (03:39):
It didn't used to be this much.
I'm starting to see this rash.
It's almost always these sexualassault cases where you start
to see it.
It's like, okay, let's imaginethis.
Imagine that you were abused inthe Catholic church for years
and then some time passed andyou went and sued the Catholic
(04:02):
church and then the CatholicChurch sued you for daring to
bring the charge.
That doesn't happen, right?
Most of the cases we bring, weallege somebody did something
and the insurance company isdefending it and they don't sue
back.
What's happening are theseindividuals who are worried
(04:25):
because their personhood that'swhat their income is dependent
upon.
So they're going to loseadvertisers, they're not going
to have movie opportunities,they're going to be shunned in
the music, Whatever it is.
Right now Diddy is on trial.
I don't know if he's been suinghis accusers.
Mike Todd (04:46):
Yeah, I don't know either.
Karen Koehler (04:47):
He's got his hands full, but other people
have and I don't want to namenames or anything like that,
although we could and even inthis whole thing with Blake
Lively and Justin Balzoni.
That's different than this,because they're more.
Mike Todd (05:04):
she's got way more money and power than he does.
Karen Koehler (05:06):
Yeah, but he still does, and so that one is
really a tip.
That's kind of an anomaly.
Those are two people that havethe means to go at each other.
One are arguably moresuccessful than the other, but
they're more on par.
Mike Todd (05:20):
And that was similar to the Johnny Depp case as well.
Karen Koehler (05:24):
Johnny Depp case , more similar, but not really.
Not exactly Amber Heard was, youknow again, you know, pretty
unequal.
But then you look at like Jay-ZI mean that's one of the more
recent ones.
I know we talked about ShannonSharp.
We talked about Shannon Sharp,these extremely powerful people
(05:49):
who, if you dare to say they didsomething wrong to you.
They are going to come afteryou and maybe it's going to be
so scary you're going to say Idon't want to be part of this,
I'm going to drop this lawsuit.
And now they're going to defameyou and say it never happened
and they're going to come afteryou and ruin you in the court of
public opinion and everythingelse.
I mean.
So there is no reason to dothat lawsuit other than to
(06:11):
destroy someone, the big,powerful person going against a
little person.
Because normally when you bringa lawsuit civilly right, you're
trying to get some kind ofjustice, whatever that is, and
for us we're always goingbackwards.
It's the little guy goingagainst the powerful because
they did something wrong andthey hurt us, the little guy,
(06:32):
and we want some kind ofaccountability for that.
This is a different use of thelegal process.
It's not being used for justiceitself, it's being used for the
court of public opinion becauseyou know you're never going to
get a dime out of the personyou're suing.
I mean right, that's not thepurpose.
It's a punk move.
Whenever I see it, that's whatI call it.
(06:54):
I said this is a punk move.
I don't like it.
It's becoming very common andthat's what I wanted to talk
about.
Mo Hamoudi (07:03):
Like defend that?
Well, I mean, I'll tell youlike, first of all, the people
who are being sued are not going.
Oh yeah, now I'm going to sue.
What is happening is thatthey're hiring lawyers and the
lawyers are saying all right,what's the story right now?
And I need to seize and controlthis story and turn the story
(07:23):
and start rewriting the story.
So this is a mechanism of likelawyer technique and really what
I would call savvy lawyers usethis as a technique to seize
back the narrative and put theother side on the defensive.
And when you're in thedefensive, my experience has
been you don't make gooddecisions.
You're just not thinkingthrough the case in a way in
(07:47):
which you want to be in controlof the case.
And so, yeah, it is a punk move, but it is a strategic move
because they want to put theperson who's saying look at me,
I'm the protagonist, no, you'renot.
You're actually a little bitmore complicated.
You're maybe pro-tag, anti-tag,and that's the idea.
Karen Koehler (08:07):
So you think that it's okay.
Mo Hamoudi (08:09):
I'm not saying it's okay, I'm saying that it's a
strategy.
I don't fundamentally agree withit.
Because, in particular, whenyou're talking about someone who
is vulnerable, who has takenthe leap of courage to come up
and say, hey, I've been abusedor I've been marginalized, and
then you come out and do thatNow I almost invite that kind of
(08:32):
technique.
If I'm representing themarginalized person, I invite it
because I will weaponize whatthey did and beat them over the
head with it.
I think that moves like thatwill reveal themselves.
I think where they areeffective, karen, is when you
don't have a good case, becauseif it's really effective, you
(08:53):
never had a good case to beginwith the accusation, there were
problems with it and you didn'tproperly vet and prepare the
accusation to be revealed in acourt of law in the first
instance, because some of thisstuff works and it's because the
accusation was be revealed in acourt of law in the first
instance, because some of thisstuff works and it's because the
accusation was not solid.
So it's not about likesometimes you know, just it
reveals the truth of theaccusation.
(09:14):
So I don't know.
I mean, if you were accused ofsomething, wouldn't you want to
come out and say wait a minute,that's not true just prove it in
your case.
Karen Koehler (09:22):
Why do you have to come out and separately sue
someone?
Mo Hamoudi (09:25):
Well, what if you know in your heart that it's not
true?
Karen Koehler (09:27):
Then you say it's not true and prove it.
Mo Hamoudi (09:29):
But then you are like paying money for a lawyer
to have to defend an accusation.
Mike Todd (09:33):
That's not accurate, I don't agree.
Mo Hamoudi (09:35):
Well then, so what are you supposed to do?
Just sit back and just gothrough the process?
Karen Koehler (09:38):
I think you sit back and you fight the process
and prove yourself.
Okay, let's say this yourepresent someone right.
And it's a federal publicdefender.
Mo Hamoudi (09:46):
Okay.
Karen Koehler (09:47):
And the government says you did this and
you're like, yeah, this isfalse, you don't get to go sue
them.
You have to wait till the caseis over, prove you're innocent
and then go sue them.
Mo Hamoudi (09:55):
Yeah, because that's For abuse of process.
Yeah, but that process istotally different.
But within the process I havegone back and accused them of
wrongdoing within the process.
Karen Koehler (10:05):
Within the process?
Yes, okay, so then— and I don'teven like process- Wait, what
do you mean?
Mo Hamoudi (10:12):
But I guess—.
Karen Koehler (10:12):
This is just one of these things that drives me
crazy.
Mo Hamoudi (10:14):
Okay, well, what drives you crazy about it?
Karen Koehler (10:17):
I think it's abusive For someone to come out
with that much power and use thejustice system to annihilate
someone, that you know what.
Everyone has the right to doeverything.
There's bad lawyers.
There's good lawyers.
Everybody has a right to file alawsuit.
Mo Hamoudi (10:34):
Yeah, I just think that when somebody does that and
you have a strong case, it'sjust telling that they're weak
and you take it, come on,they're going to do it.
I don't agree with it, butthey're going to do it anyways.
Karen Koehler (10:47):
No, I don't go with that.
You can't say that you don'tagree with it, but it's okay.
That's not a good answer.
Mo Hamoudi (10:55):
I object, you object?
Okay, all right, I think I'mthinking about it as a lawyer
and let me think about it as anon-lawyer.
Karen Koehler (11:02):
Here's what I'm doing.
I'm putting you in animpossible situation with
something that was just buggingme on the way here.
Yeah, because I saw it in thepaper and it's like it just
keeps happening, happening,happening.
I think it's repulsive, I don'tlike it and I'm telling it to
you and you're defending it,which I want you to do because I
think it's indefensible.
Mo Hamoudi (11:22):
I mean, I don't know about indefensible, mike.
Karen Koehler (11:24):
I mean if you're attacked and you know that the
attack on you lacks totalcredibility and your lawyer
says— you bring a CR-11 sanctionviolation, you take it to the
court and have the court saythis is a meritless lawsuit and
have it thrown out.
Mo Hamoudi (11:39):
Wouldn't you want your reputation defended on the
offensive, Mike, rather thanfrom the defensive position, by
having somebody file a suit andsay you know?
Mike Todd (11:51):
I would have to say yes if I knew that I was wrong,
but I also feel that I mean, youknow, I can look at our own
president as an example ofsomeone who uses that tactic
every single time he has a casebrought up against him.
And I won't say that I know thathe's done some of the stuff
that he's accused of, but Ithink that it's telling when
(12:17):
that tactic is used every timeautomatically and I just think
that I don't want to use theterm that he has started using
but when our justicism isweaponized in the way that it
seems to be getting weaponizedmore and more these days against
(12:37):
the marginalized individuals.
It's another way that attorneysget a bad name.
Yeah, and I think that you knowthe people that use that don't
care that they have a bad name.
They don't mind, they don'thave any problem with being
(13:01):
perceived as bad people becausethey think they're doing what
they need to do for theirclients.
Yeah, which is part of what youguys promise to do when you
become lawyers.
That's right, that's right, butI also feel that always going
to that automatically makes therest of the public go.
(13:22):
Lawyers suck.
Karen Koehler (13:28):
And I would never want to bring a lawsuit
against someone that's morepowerful than me.
Mike Todd (13:30):
No, that's the thing I mean.
Before I worked here, I alwaysthought there's no reason in any
situation to get a lawyerbecause I can't afford to get
one.
That would be good enough tomake sure that I want so.
And that's the same with mostpeople that I know they get.
(13:53):
In any situation that they getinto which may involve the need
for an attorney, they oftendon't think that they're good
enough for it.
Mo Hamoudi (14:05):
That's.
I like the way Mike just talkedabout that because, like the
technique that you're talkingabout about, and if the public
sees it as like, wait a minute,if I ever think about bringing a
lawsuit that could happen to me, right, and then they go, I
don't want to talk to a lawyer,I don't want to deal with that.
That's embarrassing andhumiliating and stressful.
(14:26):
That I agree with you.
In that sense it is anti-accessto justice.
It creates a disincentive towant to access the system.
I think I agree with that.
Karen Koehler (14:36):
I think I'm persuaded that in that light,
there was a great attorney,Bruce Johnson, here, who
championed anti-SLAPP for sexabuse cases in Washington state.
I can't remember if it passedor not, but with that exception,
because it is heavily used insex abuse cases and you know,
(14:58):
there are so many mechanismsalready in place.
There's something calledmandatory counterclaims and
mandatory cross claims, whichmeans you don't even need.
Why do you need to file aseparate lawsuit?
Which means you don't even needit.
Why do you need to file aseparate lawsuit?
A mandatory counterclaim meansI sue you for X and then you sue
me.
You say, well, you did this tome.
(15:20):
It goes, you did this to me,I'm suing you, I'm suing you.
Mo Hamoudi (15:24):
You did this to me.
Karen Koehler (15:24):
You come back and you sue me in the same case,
but these guys are filingtotally separate actions.
Mo Hamoudi (15:32):
And I wonder, I mean I don't know.
I mean if it's happening or yousaw something in the newspaper
that you saw this happen, it'sjust a constant litany.
Karen Koehler (15:41):
It's all the time.
I'm just seeing that it'sbecoming more and more common,
and it's probably been becomingmore and more common in the past
five years and now it's everytime.
Mo Hamoudi (15:53):
Okay, let's say you and I represent somebody, and
this is a marginalized person,and we bring a lawsuit against
Big Goliath, big Big Goliath.
Karen Koehler (16:03):
Oh, let's stay away from that topic.
Mo Hamoudi (16:06):
Like the big guy we can't talk about this.
Karen Koehler (16:11):
What are you talking about?
Sex abuse case?
Mo Hamoudi (16:13):
yeah, it's a hypothetical sex abuse, okay,
like big, big person.
And then the big person goes toanother court files, another
lawsuit, okay, what do we do?
Do we just sit there and likego no, no, what do we do?
What do we do strategically?
Well, but the no, no, what dowe do?
What do we do strategically?
Karen Koehler (16:31):
Well, but the problem is, for the little
person is most plaintiff.
Firms are small.
There's only so many resources.
Mo Hamoudi (16:38):
So we have us and we represent the little person.
What do we go tell this littleperson?
Give up.
Karen Koehler (16:44):
No.
Mo Hamoudi (16:45):
Okay, what do we say?
Karen Koehler (16:46):
We'll go over there too.
Mo Hamoudi (16:47):
We'll go over there too, Okay.
Karen Koehler (16:49):
But how many people can do that?
Mike Todd (16:51):
Not many.
Mo Hamoudi (16:52):
Not many.
Karen Koehler (16:53):
And the resources are huge.
So here, number one you almostonly see this in sex abuse cases
.
That's where you see it,because in sex abuse cases
people are more vulnerablebecause, unless you were
recording it with the video,it's between two people or a few
people.
There's not a lot of witnesses.
(17:14):
Normally in a sex abuse case,as you know, there's a
perpetrator, alleged perpetratorand the person that's being
victimized.
That's it.
So there's like how do youprove that?
We have that right now?
Right, we have a lot of issuesin cases that are old and
involve sex abuse.
You can't, it's hard to proveit.
Mike Todd (17:33):
So yes, well, and then add up to if there was
anyone else present during thesituation, that's on the side of
the accused.
The accuser automatically haspeople that are backing up the
person that she's accusing orhe's accusing.
Karen Koehler (17:50):
The defense will do several things.
One they'll attack that personand say they're mentally in fit,
they're mentally in sound,they're making this up.
I mean, it's like a playbook,it's the same defense.
So what I'm saying, though, isthat's what we're seeing right
now sex abuse cases but it'salso a slippery slope.
OK, all right sex abuse cases,but it's also a slippery slope.
(18:13):
Okay, all right.
What happens if we were to sueJohn Doe for killing our client,
for running over them on asidewalk, and then that company
turned around and sued us forsuing them?
Mo Hamoudi (18:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, talking about sex abuse, Ithink it's the nature of sex
abuse and what it requiressomebody to go through to talk
about it, and so I think thatsuits are used in those cases
because they want to make theaccusing person go.
(18:44):
The nature about sex abuse isthat because you don't disclose
it immediately and the's becauseyou don't disclose it
immediately and the reason whyyou don't disclose it
immediately has nothing to doabout whether or not it happened
to you.
It's that you feel utterlyalone in a secret that you're
keeping, because you have tokeep this secret and you think
that you can't disclose thesecret.
And then something happens inyour life and you feel that you
(19:07):
can share it with somebody.
Or you go through a process andthen you realize, oh, I can do
something about this.
What happened to me was notright, and you have to sum up
all of this courage to come andspeak about it openly, publicly,
in documents, in the courtroom.
Now what the defense is doingthere is they're going.
I know you came originally froma place where this was a secret
(19:30):
and I want you to go back tothat place.
Karen Koehler (19:33):
Correct.
Mo Hamoudi (19:33):
Right, and here you go, and here's this suit.
Go back to that place.
Go back to that place, and Ithink that that is the
disgusting part of thistechnique.
That's what the lawyer is doingis to force you back into that
dark place, to that space thatyou're utterly alone.
Here are the consequences forcoming out and speaking about
(19:55):
this, and you want to speak more.
It's going to cost you evenmore.
Karen Koehler (19:58):
And look at the.
It's not just the power.
In terms of money dynamics,there's often a huge age
difference.
Mo Hamoudi (20:06):
Yeah.
Karen Koehler (20:07):
I mean.
So the person that's beingvictimized does not have a lot
of life experience and is, youknow?
And plus, with sex abuse casesthere's shame, you know.
Yes, so there's a lot ofcomplexities in there.
Mo Hamoudi (20:23):
But also when you're like, if you're
experiencing sex abuse as aminor, you don't remember
details like you would as anadult.
Things you remember aredifferent, even though it's true
that it happened.
And so when somebody comes outand says, well, no, you're a
liar and you have defamed me,and then you start to question
(20:48):
your own reality and you startto lose your mind and you start
to think that, like, wait aminute, was it exactly like that
?
That's the intention is tostart to question, plant the
seed in your brain that theseare all illusions, this didn't
really happen to you.
And then what that does is that,as the abused person, you're
going to your lawyer, going,maybe this wasn't a good idea.
(21:09):
I don't know if I want to dothis.
Are you sure it's a good idea?
And you start to doubt yourself.
And so I think that you know,yeah, I mean that is a punk move
.
The more I think about it, itangers me.
I mean I changed it.
I mean I just didn't thinkabout it.
Through that lens, through thatprocess, I just had to sort of
it's bully behavior.
Karen Koehler (21:30):
It's a punk move and it's become normal.
Mike Todd (21:39):
Well, don't you also think in a way, it's taking the
power that the accused wieldedover the person and using it
against them?
Karen Koehler (21:45):
again, let's say that it's even.
Let's say that the person thatsued them isn't 100 right, but
there's some truth in there, butnot 100 right, um, and let's
say that.
But that person, of course, islike 20 years older than and and
about you know, 15 milliontimes poorer than the person
(22:09):
they're suing.
Let's just go down that road so, and let's say that drugs were
involved.
That's where I was going to gotoo, or alcohol was involved or
you know anything else thatcomes into some of these
behaviors.
Mike Todd (22:25):
Which is going to affect their memory or possibly
create memories that they didn'tactually have.
Karen Koehler (22:32):
For both sides, yeah for both sides, yeah for
both sides.
And then they approach the guyand say you know, I remember
this and this isn't right, andmaybe they're in counseling or
something and they were told toconfront their accuser.
I mean who knows?
We don't know right, we don'tknow what goes on and the person
(22:54):
that they confront just blowsthem off.
That's when you typically see alawsuit.
A lawsuit typically doesn'tjust come out of the blue.
It typically comes when someonehas and this is true for, like
a car accident case, for example, if the person that hits you is
going to visit you in thehospital and take care of you
(23:14):
know, like what can I do to helpyou and do everything that they
can from day one, you feel verydifferently about them than if
they don't even send you a getwell card.
After a month you know inhospital, when you no longer can
use your legs, and they declineto pay any of your medical
bills ever until there's a judgethat orders them to do so at
the end of a case, after a juryhas entered their verdict.
(23:37):
I mean, that's what it lookslike.
So if people acknowledge you andhelp you and you don't, you
know and see you and care foryou, you don't really why would
you need a lawyer?
Why would a person need alawyer If someone's going to say
I'm sorry that I caused youthis terrible stuff?
I'm going to do right by you.
(23:57):
Let's work it out, okay, youdon't need a lawyer.
Let's work it out.
Okay, you don't need a lawyer,you need a lawyer.
Well, you see the lawyerscoming in is because you need
help.
You can't get any helpwhatsoever.
The person has iced you.
They won't talk to you becauseinsurance companies say don't
talk that's what I was going tosay.
Mike Todd (24:13):
The insurance companies almost always
insurance companies.
Karen Koehler (24:15):
They stop everything from happening and
you have no other options.
You're going to, you're goingto take a lawsuit and you're
going to stay in that lawsuit if, instead of paying your claim
quickly, they start to dosurveillance on you even when
you're coming out of a hospital.
Mike Todd (24:34):
Dig into your social media and your past.
Karen Koehler (24:36):
Yeah, they demand to see everything.
Mike Todd (24:38):
They talk to all your old girlfriends and try to get
crazy questions about your sexlife.
Karen Koehler (24:44):
Oh, my God, and you know that's when you're
going to file a lawsuit, orreally, you know, stick, stick
to a lawsuit, because you're so,what else are you going to do?
You're so, you're so pumped,yeah.
So here we have it like this,this whole thing, it has become
very normalized.
Um, I mean, I just keep seeingit happen time and time and time
(25:07):
again.
And then what's really sad iswhen the smaller persons, just
their, their lawyer, gives upbecause now what are they
supposed to do?
They're supposed to prosecute alawsuit and defend a lawsuit
against them, like, and theydidn't set out to do that.
So maybe I don't feel so sorryfor their lawyer, but their
lawyer, and maybe because maybetheir lawyer could have gotten
(25:27):
more help or something, but may,and you know what, there are
times when people bring falseallegations yeah, that's clearly
.
Mike Todd (25:35):
Then there's always that I don't think that it
happens nearly as much as theaccused want you to think, but
it has happened it has happenedyeah, it has happened.
Mo Hamoudi (25:45):
I mean, no, it's, it's.
I think that I would beinterested to see the cases that
are being used on, and it'sprimarily that sexual abuse
cases I think that's the problemalmost entirely, entirely,
those like if it's a corporationsuing another corporation I
could care less.
But you know it's like oh, youdid another suit against the
(26:09):
corporation, oh.
But I think that the dynamic ofsexual abuse, it's where it's
most prevalent and it has to dowith the power of the abuser
over the abused.
It is leveraging that dynamicand saying like I still have
power over you, Don't forgetthat.
And it's the lawyer knows that.
And if a lawyer ever did thatin one of my cases, I call him
(26:32):
up and I tell him you're a punk,because you just taught me that
word.
Karen Koehler (26:37):
Yes, that's my thought for today.
Mo Hamoudi (26:42):
That's's a good thought.
That's a good thought.
Yeah, feel lucky punk.
That's a short one.
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