Ep. 35 - Talking With Dr. Mitch Maki From The Nonprofit Go For Broke: Honoring Japanese American WWII Veterans and Inspiring Future Generations

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Join us for an enlightening conversation with Dr. Mitch Maki, President of the Go For Broke National Education Center, as we uncover the enduring legacy of Japanese American veterans from World War II. Discover the powerful story behind the phrase "Go For Broke" and how it became the rallying cry for the brave 100th/442nd Regimental Combat Team. These soldiers, who faced fierce battles abroad and prejudice at home, became the most decorated unit of their size in U.S. military history. Dr. Maki shares his lifelong passion for preserving their stories, driven by his own childhood experiences in Los Angeles.

We journey through America's past mistakes, examining the internment of Japanese Americans and its painful legacy. Reflecting on the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, we discuss how acknowledging these injustices can inform our approach to contemporary issues of race and political leadership. There's a yearning for the bipartisan cooperation once exemplified by leaders like Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan, and we explore how their spirit of unity can guide us in today's polarized world. By learning from history, we aim to foster a more cohesive society.

This episode also highlights the innovative ways the Go For Broke organization inspires civic engagement among young Americans. Through storytelling initiatives like the Torchbearers program and the Go For Broke Journalism Institute, students connect historical events with modern-day issues, cultivating pride and a commitment to positive change. From fashion collaborations to journalism projects, we showcase the transformative power of these narratives in nurturing a deeper understanding of loyalty, sacrifice, and civic duty across generations.

Episode Transcript

Scott McLean (00:00):
Welcome to the podcast.
I'm Scott McLean.
My guest today is Dr MitchMcKay.
Mitch is the president ofGopher Broke National Education
Center.
Gopher Broke National EducationCenter is a non-profit
organization based in downtownLos Angeles' historic Little
Tokyo District.
Gopher Broke is committed tomaintaining and contemporarily

(00:22):
applying the legacy of theJapanese American veterans of
World War II, including theircourage, sacrifice, fight for
equality and love for theircountry.
Now I don't usually do this,but I want to read you their
mission statement.
The Go for Broke missionstatement is to educate and
inspire character and equalitythrough the virtue and valor of

(00:44):
our World War II Americanveterans of Japanese ancestry.
I love that, hey, mitch, howyou doing.

Dr. Mitch Maki (00:54):
Doing well.
Scott, Just really happy to behere with you today.

Scott McLean (00:57):
Yes, finally, finally.
This was one of those tagepisodes, but we finally get it
done and I'm glad that youfollowed through and we're going
to have a good interview hereNow.
About 30 minutes prior to this,I started getting the tickle in
my throat.
It's the thing going aroundhere in South Florida, so if I

(01:21):
go silent for a minute, I'mprobably coughing.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:25):
Very good, then we'll edit it out.
No problem.

Scott McLean (01:28):
Exactly, we'll do that.
All right, mitch.
So first of all, where did thename come from?
Gopherbroke?

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:35):
Well, just to give your listeners a little bit
of context, during World War II, december 7th 1941, the
Imperial Nation of Japan attacksPearl Harbor and it thrusts the
United States into World War II.
December 7th 1941, the imperialnation of Japan attacks Pearl
Harbor and it thrusts the UnitedStates into World War II.
But Japanese Americans began towonder immediately what would
happen to us right, would we betreated like the American

(01:56):
citizens we were Two-thirds ofus had been born in America,
were American citizens by birth,and people like my grandparents
who came around 1900 had beenhere 40, 50 years and were
American by loyalty andtradition and practice.
Or would we be treated like theenemy, because we shared a
common heritage?

(02:17):
Well, we got our answer abouttwo months later and President
Roosevelt signed Executive Order9066, and that set the
underpinnings by which over120,000 individuals of Japanese
ancestry would be forciblyremoved from their homes on the
west coast of the continentalUnited States and made to live

(02:39):
the next two to five years oftheir lives behind barbed wire.
Now, out of this context ofliving in a concentration camp
surrounded by barbed wires andmachine gun towers, the US Army
came up with an idea of creatinga segregated unit of Japanese
American soldiers, young men, togo and fight for liberty and

(03:01):
justice halfway across the worldwhile their own families were
being incarcerated back home.
These young men came from bothHawaii as well as from the
continental United States andthey would go on to become the
most highly decorated unit oftheir size in American military
history, for their size andlength of service.

(03:22):
I mean, think about that justfor a moment Young men whose
families have lost their homes,their jobs, their businesses,
their rights will go on tobecome the most highly decorated
unit of their size in Americanhistory.
And they were known as the100th 442nd in Europe.
And there were others whoserved in the Pacific theater

(03:44):
that were known as the militaryintelligence service.
But you're asking me about themotto go for broke.
And that was for the guys inEurope, right, the 100th 442nd
and go for broke.
It started off as a gamblingterm from Hawaii and it
literally means go all in, shootthe works, push all the money

(04:08):
in, because the boys from Hawaiilove to gamble.
I mean, if you know anyone fromHawaii and my folks are
originally from Hawaii I meanthey love to gamble.
It's like eating, drinking andgambling, right, and so it's a
gambling term, as I mentioned,to go all in.
And while the guys would begambling during basic training
and then even when they're beingshipped out to go serve, they

(04:30):
realized that what they wereabout to do was so much more
important than any one wager,than any one bet.
They were fighting for theirfuture and for the future of
people they would never know andthey had to go for broke, and
for the future of people theywould never know and they had to
go for broke.
They had to go all in becausethe wager.

Scott McLean (04:52):
the issue was so large.
Very interesting.
That's a great story.
I'm all about stories and theyare.

Dr. Mitch Maki (04:59):
They went all in .
As you can tell from the story,they all, they went all in.
Yes, as you can tell from thestory, you know these guys did
not hold back because they knew,as President Truman would tell
them later, they not only foughtthe enemy, they fought
prejudice.

Scott McLean (05:13):
Yes.

Dr. Mitch Maki (05:13):
That's what they were up against at that time.

Scott McLean (05:15):
Literally two enemies, yeah Right.
So how did you get involved inall this?
Where did your journey begin?
As far as this is Because I'mpretty sure at this point this
is your purpose in life- yes, itis.

Dr. Mitch Maki (05:32):
Which is?

Scott McLean (05:33):
amazing when people find their purpose.

Dr. Mitch Maki (05:36):
And Scott, you are right on, I am blessed to be
able to do this as my quoteunquote job, you know, and make
a living doing it, but it reallyis my passion work and it goes
back.
I'm 63 years old.
I was born and raised in LosAngeles, california, and, you
know, born in the 60s.

(05:56):
I was just the all-American kidlike, growing up with my
friends who were black, white,brown, everything right, and we
didn't see difference with oneanother.
And it was around when I was 10years old that I learned the
stories of Japanese Americansbeing incarcerated during World
War II.
And my family wasn'tincarcerated because they were

(06:17):
from Hawaii and people in Hawaii, by and large, were left alone.
But I remember when I learnedthe story for the first time, I
thought it couldn't be JapaneseAmericans like me and my folks.
Right, it had to be like theJapanese from Japan or maybe
they captured some of thesoldiers or something like that,
right.
And when I realized that no, itwas people like me, it was my

(06:43):
friends who were from themainland and their parents and
their grandparents were the onesthat were sent off to camp
Scott, I was devastated.
You know, as a 10-year-old boyI'm thinking how, how could this
happen in our country?
How could this happen toAmericans like me?

(07:04):
Because I just saw myself as anAmerican at that point, right,
and it devastated me.
And then, shortly thereafter, Ilearned about the story of the
Japanese American young men andeventually the young women who
would serve, despite beingtreated like that, you know, and
would go on, as I mentioned, tobecome so highly decorated.

(07:29):
And I got to tell you that Ididn't believe that story at
first either, because it justdidn't fit the way Japanese
Americans were portrayed in themedia at that time.
You know, we didn't haveleading roles at that time.
We were never the heroes, wewere always the very stereotypic
character in the background,right.

(07:49):
But when I learned that no,this was true, it was people
like my uncle who served in thisunit that did such heroic
things, it just filled me withpride.
And that devastation that I hadprevious was just replaced with
a sense of pride, like this isan American story.
This isn't just about JapaneseAmericans.

(08:12):
This is about the sons anddaughters of immigrants who, in
one generation, said we areAmerican and we're going to
embody the very best values ofAmerica we're going to embody
the very best values of Americacourage, patriotism and service.

Scott McLean (08:31):
So I'm going to get to the foundation.
This is very intriguing to me.
It always has been anintriguing topic to me, and now
I can ask somebody that knowsmore than probably anybody I
know knows, and this is nevertalked about.
It's never talked about.

(08:54):
I saw a TV series a coupleyears back three or four years
back, that kind of was revolvedaround that, but it wasn't about
that.
It took place in one of thoseinternment camps and but it's
never talked about, it's nottaught, it's not topic of
discussion in any wartime movie,tv show conversation.

(09:21):
So my question what's your takeon it?
Why?
Why do you think it's just kindof the obvious answer is
embarrassment, right, but what'syour, what's your thoughts on
that?

Dr. Mitch Maki (09:35):
Well, I think there's a whole bunch of reasons
and you know there have beenmovies, but they just haven't
caught on.
There have been references inTV shows and you know, as
somebody who studies, that everytime there's even a mention of
it in a TV show I'm all ears andwanting to hear what they have
to say.
But what you're saying is sotrue that this generation of

(09:55):
Americans growing up and goingthrough school now they don't
hear about it and if they do,it's one sentence in the history
book kind of thing.
It and if they do, it's onesentence in the history book
kind of thing.
And I used to be a professor inCalifornia for a while at UCLA,
teaching some of the brighteststudents in California, and they
had never heard about it comingup through school.
And to me that is a travesty.

(10:19):
Not only this story, but thereare other stories in our history
, in our country's history, thatwe need to talk about so that
we don't repeat them and wedon't make the same mistakes.
And there's nothing wrong and Ifirmly believe there's nothing
wrong with looking at ournation's past and saying we've

(10:41):
made mistakes, you know, and weneed to rectify that or address
that, acknowledge it.
You know, and certainly thereare limits to what we can do,
but we need to live up toAmerica's promise, and that's
the promise that in our nation,no one should be judged by the

(11:04):
color of their skin, the nationof their origin or the faith
that they choose to keep.
And if you think about theseJapanese American soldiers wrong
skin color in World War IIright, they were from their
parents, were from the nationwith which we were at war, japan
right, and half of them werenot Christian, they were

(11:26):
Buddhists, you know.
So they were different in somany different ways, and yet
they were so American at thevery core of what they did and
served.
And if we have time, I'd like toget into.
In fact, our nation didapologize for this In 1988,
president Ronald Reagan signedthe Civil Liberties Act, which

(11:48):
provided a presidential apologyand monetary redress payments to
those that were incarcerated.
And in the words of PresidentReagan, he said today we right a
grave wrong, you know.
And the strength for our nationto atone and address for its

(12:09):
past mistakes.
And that's true even on anindividual level.
Right, none of us are perfect.
We all make mistakes and it'simportant for us to acknowledge
that and not live in a fantasyworld where we think we are
perfect either as individuals oras a nation fantasy world where
we think we are perfect eitheras individuals or as a nation.

Scott McLean (12:30):
So then, let me ask you what's the impact and
lessons learned from America'streatment of the Japanese
Americans during World War II?

Dr. Mitch Maki (12:38):
Well, we could talk about that for hours.

Scott McLean (12:40):
Impact and lessons learned is a lot, I believe,
right.

Dr. Mitch Maki (12:43):
Right, because part of me worries a great deal
that the impact is being lost.
Yes, this is an 80-year-oldstory.
As one does the math, werealize it happened 80, 85 years
ago.
And it's critical that we tellthe story and continue to tell

(13:04):
the story, if for no otherreason, to alert Americans that
things like this can happen.
You know that, based solely onrace, people had everything
stripped of them right, basedsimply on and in fact there was
a commission hearing thatstudied this problem and they

(13:26):
said that the camps.
When does that sound like?
You know race prejudice, war,hysteria and a failure of

(13:49):
political leadership.
And more oftentimes than not,the students will say it sounds
like today.
You know race prejudice I thinkI don't need to belabor that
point that racism still existsin our nation.
Wartime hysteria, whether it'swars across the nation, around
the world, or we are divided inour own nation.

(14:11):
You know, and we need to, asAmericans, find that common
ground and a failure ofpolitical leadership.
And I don't mean this as aswipe at the right or the left,
but you know what's happening inDC doesn't feel good to most
Americans.
It just feels so divided.
We don't.
There's no compromise.
There's no.
Let's do what's best for ournation rather than what's best

(14:34):
for our party, and I say thatwith extreme neutrality, you
know, in terms of we've got tocome to that middle.
And this story reminds us whathappens when we think we're
above making mistakes and whenwe think that it can't happen in
America, because it can happenin America.

Scott McLean (14:55):
Right Now I'm going to touch on something you
mentioned.
So I grew up in Massachusettsand I grew up a Massachusetts
Democrat and this is not apolitical statement in any way,
shape or form, but it's relevantto what you just said.
And I grew up, uh, you know, aMassachusetts Democrat, and some
years back I took a, I took alook and I said this this isn't,

(15:19):
this isn't what I grew up with.
It's.
Things started to change, likeyou said.
It got uncomfortable and I'mlike well, you know, this is
this and that's that.
And then I would talk to mybrother, and my brother
basically hit the nail on thehead when he said you're a Tip
O'Neill Democrat.
Now you'll understand that,right, you're a Tip O'Neill

(15:40):
Democrat.
They really don't exist anymore.
Tip O'Neill Democrat, theyreally don't exist anymore.
Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagancould sit down together.
Yes, they could have aliterally drink a beer together.
They might not agree with eachother, but they sat down
together and they talked andthey worked things out and they
made things happen, and that'swhat we're missing in this

(16:01):
country.

Dr. Mitch Maki (16:03):
Scott, I'm about to jump through the screen to
high five you, because that'sexactly how I feel.
You know, the typicalneo-Democrats, the Ronald Reagan
Republicans, don't exist in theway that they did in the 80s
and so forth.
But, even more important thanthat, the ability to talk to one
another, just what you did withyour brother, the ability to

(16:25):
have discussions, you know, andwhat we work with a lot of young
people at Gulfbrook NationalEducation Center and when I
enter their world and see whatthey see, they're just getting
social media that's far right orfar left, and you know it's the
social media vilifies the otherin terms of if you don't

(16:47):
believe what I believe, thenyou're evil.
You know, regardless of whichway you're looking at it.
And I cling to the belief thatmost Americans still exist
somewhere in the middle.
That you know.
Yeah, we want a fair shake.
We believe in freedom for allof us.
You know it's to differingdegrees.

(17:08):
We want more government, lessgovernment, whatever.
You know.
I mean that's the kind ofdiscussion that tip o'neill and
ronald reagan would have, youknow, type of thing.
But at the end of the day,we're americans, yeah, and at
the end of the day, you know, weknow we got to stand with each
other because united we stand,divided we fall.
I know it sounds trite, butit's so true and I'm fearful

(17:32):
that our nation is going downthat path where dialogue,
compromise and finding commonground is not the priority.

Scott McLean (17:42):
Right, I agree 100%.
And so let's talk about theyounger generation.
So what does Go4Broke do toinspire younger generations to
become involved in civicengagement activities and what
does it do to let them know thattheir voices are more important

(18:03):
than ever in this modern timewith social media and the
dangers of social media, theweaponization of social media?

Dr. Mitch Maki (18:12):
So we have several of what we call next gen
programs.
We have our torchbearers, wehave our journalism institute,
we have a traveling exhibit, butby and large, what we are
looking to do is use this storyof courage, service and
patriotism, and I I use the wordpatriot in this sense, in the

(18:35):
old school way yes someone whobelieves in their nation and
loves their nation and uh, andyou know not, not in any current
meaning that you're far right,yeah, we're going to leave that
in the background.
Okay.

Scott McLean (18:50):
We're on the same.
I'm 61, you're 60.
We're on the same exact page,my friend.

Dr. Mitch Maki (18:55):
Right, but you know.
So we at Gopher BaroqueNational Education Center say
that this particular story thatwe're talking about is not a
great Japanese-American story.
It's a great American story.

(19:16):
It's a story of the very bestvalues of our nation and people
believing in our nation enoughthat they will overcome the
discrimination and themaltreatment that they're
receiving in the hopes of thedream of our nation becoming
that more perfect union.
And that's what we try to sharewith our young people.
And it's not our job to tellthem what to think, which side
of the issue to be on.

(19:36):
It's our job to tell themplease think, you know, and
please discuss, please engage indiscussions, and we're learning
as we're doing this.
We're not perfect at it at thispoint, but my hope is that we
can get young people from acrossthe country, from not just

(19:56):
Japanese-American young people Iwas going to ask you that, yeah
, no, people of all backgrounds,ethnic backgrounds, racial
backgrounds, regionalbackgrounds, religious
backgrounds, blah, blah, blah.
Right, the whole nine yards tocome together and share our
differences, but, as I keepsaying, find that common ground.
So just in October of this year, we held a Torchbearer

(20:19):
convening in Denver, where webrought young people from Maui
to Vermont.
We have different partnersacross the nation and bring them
together to have a discussionabout the current affairs in the
United States, and inparticular, we had one professor
from Boulder come and talkabout you know what does it mean

(20:41):
to have a discussion withpeople who see things
differently than you do?
Right In today's climate, theanswer is we write them off.
If you, if you're not with me,you're against me.
Right, we've got to work onallowing ourselves to disagree,
but still have that beer at theend of the day, like Tip and

(21:03):
Ronnie would have that beer atthe end of the day like tip and
Ronnie would.

Scott McLean (21:09):
That is a and I am not a pessimist in any way,
shape or form but that's a verysteep hill.

Dr. Mitch Maki (21:15):
Oh yeah, as we both know, yeah, that that
that's a, very that's a.

Scott McLean (21:18):
That is a tough cause, but I think, I think it
can be done.
I think there's a, as my wifealways says, the pendulum.
The pendulum always swings backthe other way.
It always does and to.

Dr. Mitch Maki (21:31):
To be completely truthful, it's not like we're
bringing the far right and thefar left together in the same
room and having that.
I mean, that's way beyond usright now.
But yeah, we're talking about,you know, average american young
adults, 21 through 35, who'vegraduated from college or trying
to make their way.
Or, you know, maybe they didn'teven go to college or they're
doing a trade or something.

(21:51):
So these are your, you know,regular, everyday Americans
trying to find their way, and wehave differing views.
You know, whether the views areabout abortion, whether the
views are about immigration,whether the views are about the
unhoused or gun control, wedon't all agree.

(22:12):
I mean, no one lives in thatfantasy world, but we've got to
be able to talk about it, right,because we all live in the same
nation.

Scott McLean (22:23):
What do young Japanese Americans when they
first hear about this?
What is your experience withtheir reactions?

Dr. Mitch Maki (22:40):
That's a good question.
I'm pausing just because I'mnot sure.
Unless they're very young, likeif they're young adults by the
time they get to me they'veheard the story on some level
for sophomores in high school,and it was a Japanese American

(23:04):
basketball group kind of thing,right and so they probably heard
it from me for the first timein the detail that they shared.
One, I think, disbelief.
If you're a 15, 16 year old kidright now you were born way
after 9-11, right, I mean, andyou don't even remember a lot of

(23:30):
the stuff that we talk aboutall the time.
So talking about something thathappened 85 years ago is like
ancient history to them.
But once they get into it andthey realize, wow, america was a
different place at that time, Ithink there's disbelief, I
think there's tremendous pride,and then they begin to question
and this is where I like tobring them to is and how do we

(23:54):
make america a better placetoday?
How do we help america to liveup to its creed of liberty and
justice for all and a nation oflaws under which we all live?
Yeah, so that's for JapaneseAmericans.
Right?
For non-Japanese American youngpeople, because many of them

(24:15):
have never heard the story rightBecause, as you mentioned, it's
not into schools and so forth.
Again, disbelief, but,surprisingly, a lot of pride.
You know, I've had a lot ofLatinos and Latinas really
resonate with this story because, for example, one young woman

(24:38):
came up to me Her father is animmigrant, her mother is an
immigrant and she said theseguys are just like me, they were
the sons of immigrants.
I'm the daughter of animmigrant, her mother's an
immigrant.
And she said these guys arejust like me.
They were the sons ofimmigrants, I'm the daughter of
an immigrant.
If they can do great things forthe kitten, for the nation, I
can too.
When she said that, I said ohman, we hit pager, you know,
because now this isn't just aJapanese American story, it's an

(24:59):
American story and, as Scott,you and I are about the same age
and growing up my mother usedto always quote John F Kennedy
and my mother wasn't politicalin either.

Scott McLean (25:13):
No, I was mine yeah.

Dr. Mitch Maki (25:14):
But she loved this one phrase or statement
that Kennedy would say, and itwas ask not what your country
can do for you, Ask what you cando for your country.
Epic, Epic, yeah.
And we don't hear that today.
That's a good point.
You know, it's what's in it forme.
You know, and I mean that'strue in even job interviews that

(25:36):
I'm doing with young peopletoday, it's like, you know, it's
all about me and you know thatsense of entitlement and I don't
want to be too ageist in this,but the notion of not what can
my nation do for me, but whatcan I do for my nation is, you
know, that is embodied in thisJapanese American soldier story

(26:00):
of World War II is a nation thathad really treated them like
dirt.
They turn around and say we'regoing to take that dirt and
plant seeds.

Scott McLean (26:10):
They rose above it .
Yeah, absolutely rose above it.
So, speaking of JapaneseAmerican veterans, do you know
how many are still around, howmany are?

Dr. Mitch Maki (26:22):
there there isn't a roster right, but I can
tell you I would be surprised ifit's more than a hundred that
yeah because, uh, these guys, ifyou were a world war ii veteran
, you have to be like 99 yearsold in order to just unless you
lied about your age and some ofthese guys did lie about their
age, they went in when they were16 and so forth.

(26:45):
But in Los Angeles we have anannual fundraising dinner that
we call Evening of Aloha.
20 years ago we would march inlike 60 or 70 veterans.
They would walk in andthunderous applause, and so it
was just quite the moment.
This past year we had five andwe didn't have a march in

(27:10):
because four of them were inwheelchairs.
We already had them up on stageand, you know, I look at them
and I say these are my heroesand I'm blessed to have them for
another year or two.
Have them for another year ortwo.
But, um, we are very close, uh,very close to that point where
we will have no more world warii veterans of any background,

(27:31):
right, and because all of theseguys and women and women are our
heroes, to us.
You know it was a differenttime in a different place and,
yeah, I think, if nothing else,what I would would want your
listeners to just really reflecton is we have another year or
two, maybe three, if we're alittle bit lucky, to cherish

(27:54):
these men and women and to thankthem for helping us become who
we are.
That's great perspective.
For helping us become who weare, that's great perspective.
In Japanese there's a sayingokagesamade, because of you, I
am, and that's the feeling thatwe have about our veterans, not

(28:16):
only our Japanese Americanveterans, but all of our
American military veterans.
Because of you, because of whatyou did and sacrificed, I can
live the life that I live today.
You know, if you think about it, here I am.
Before I was in this position, Iwas in the university setting

(28:38):
and I've written articles andbooks about this very topic,
about the experience of JapaneseAmericans during World War II.
My father couldn't buy a housein certain places, couldn't get
a job in certain places,couldn't do so many different
things, because he was Japanese,american right and his

(29:01):
generation.
He served in the Korean War,but you, but because he was a
little too young for the WorldWar Two.
But his generation changedeverything so that somebody my
age could have a career talkingabout that.
And then my son doesn't evenhave to think about it in the
same way.
You know he's going on tobecome a physical therapist.

(29:22):
And you know he doesn't think'sgoing on to become a physical
therapist and you know hedoesn't think about himself as a
Japanese American physicaltherapist.
He just thinks of himself as aphysical therapist.

Scott McLean (29:32):
There you go.
I was blessed and lucky enoughto early in this podcast,
probably in the first 10episodes I got to interview a
veteran that served in World WarII, korea and Vietnam, and what
you just said actually reallyput it when I said great

(29:55):
perspective, that, yeah, what dowe got three, five years at the
max, maybe, and that's untilyou just just said that I never
really thought of it that way,but that's uh, yeah in in la
right now we have three, uh,veterans that I'm very close to,

(30:16):
right there.

Dr. Mitch Maki (30:18):
Oh, two of them are going to turn 100 this year
and one's going to turn 102,right, and they've all outlived
their wives, which is rare,right?
Yeah, um, and you know, they're100 and 102.
That's super rare, and Iattribute part of that to the
fact that when they go out intothe community, they're put on a
pedestal.

(30:38):
Yes, demigods, right, they showup to an event, especially if
they have their garrison hat onand their gold broke shirt on.
People flock to them and justtreat them like the heroes they
are, and it gives them purposeand it gives them a reason to
live.
And I watched that and I thinkyou know that's how we should
treat all of our elderly, right?

Scott McLean (30:59):
Well, that's a whole nother podcast.

Dr. Mitch Maki (31:00):
That's a whole nother podcast.
Well, that's a whole notherpodcast.
That's a whole nother podcast.
Certainly for the veterans thatwe have, you know, all of our
veterans.
Let's continue to give themthat kind of treatment.

Scott McLean (31:10):
Yes, yes, so let's talk about Go For Broke.
Tell us about you mentioned ita little while ago the National
Torchbearers Program.
Where did that come from?
And tell the audience what it'sabout.

Dr. Mitch Maki (31:27):
Well, I came on board as the president about
eight years ago and I realizedit was at that time a
75-year-old story.
And then, unless we really gotthe next gen involved, we were
just going to die on the vine,right.
And so I decided at that pointwe need to have a next
generation young people'sprogram.

(31:49):
So I I called about 12 youngpeople that I knew.
I got them together and Ishared my very best ideas with
them.
Scott, I mean, these werebrilliant ideas that I had.
I'm joking here.
Yeah, I had my very best ideas.

Scott McLean (32:04):
I'm sure you're just being modest, but okay.

Dr. Mitch Maki (32:09):
We're going to have speeches.
We're going to havepresentations, and panel
discussion and there's one youngdude right, he's probably like
25 at the time.
He goes I wouldn't come to anyof that, you know.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, youknow, narcissistic injury.
Right, my brilliant ideas, howcan you not like them?
And I said why wouldn't youcome to any of this?

(32:30):
And he goes because I don'tknow what you're talking about,
you know.
And he goes.
I don't want to look stupid andI'm not into that.
So I said, well, what are youinto?
He says I'm into clothing andI'm into drinking.
I thought, well, what am Igoing to do with that?

(32:50):
But from that we started doingin the Little Tokyo area in Los
Angeles and in the surroundingarea.
We would start doing pub crawlswhere we would go to different
bars and put on different events, have trivia contests, so
introduce the story.
But in a venue where the youngpeople were already asked, we
started a clothing line with oneof the young, up-and-coming
streetwear people.
So we had to meet the youngfolks where they were at and

(33:12):
then they started gettinginterested and saying, well,
tell us more about this story.
And then we also had to changethe story that it wasn't simply
about guns, battles and bullets,because the only people who
care about guns, battles andbullets are those who were
really into the military orthey're history nerds, right.

(33:33):
But for the average youngperson it's like, oh, that's a
cool story and they move on.
But if we took the story and wesaid it's not about guns,
battles and bullets, it's aboutvalues, it's about character,
it's about commitment.
It's about character, it'sabout, you know, commitment to a
higher cause, then they startto see, well, maybe there's some
ties to what I believe in.
And so from there we startedsaying, okay, we need to reach

(33:55):
out across the nation.
So we started reaching out topartner groups that we knew
across the nation and sayingsend us young people.
And we've been doing this nowfor two full years, where we've
had a spring convening and afall convening.
We gather these people together.
We have invited speakers totalk about various topics.

(34:17):
As I mentioned, we had theprofessor who talked about how
do you have difficultconversations.
We had a speaker come and talkabout unhoused individuals,
because that's a big problem inall of our major cities.
On one hand you want to behumanitarian about it, but on
the other hand there's a healthand safety concern.

(34:39):
How do you start to deal withthat.
It's not as simple as get ridof them all or house them all
type of thing, and we found thatwhen we approach it not from a
deterministic point of view orwe got to tell you what to think
, but just let us be that placewhere you feel that you can come

(34:59):
together, talk about theseissues together, talk about
these issues and then dedicateyourself to go for broke, if you
will in addressing this eitheron a national level which is
kind of grandiose, becausethat's hard to do but, more
realistically, in yourparticular city.
So the young people who comefrom Denver go back to Denver,
the young people from Chicago goback to Chicago and they do

(35:21):
their little projects, whateverthe projects might be.

Scott McLean (35:31):
Well, the people can't see but the logo.
Go For Broke has a torch, itcarries it right into the logo.
I like the clothing line.
That kind of piqued mycuriosity.

Dr. Mitch Maki (35:41):
Oh, I wish I had .

Scott McLean (35:44):
That's all right.

Dr. Mitch Maki (35:44):
You can show me we're going to be in touch a lot
more after this okay I'm surewe'll be communicating right a
lot we you know, and it's it'smore street wear kind of, it's
like hoodies and t-shirts andlong stuff.

Scott McLean (35:57):
I I'm I'm committing right now I am
definitely going to buy a hoodieall right afterwards you let me
know where I love hoodies, solet me know where I can get it.

Dr. Mitch Maki (36:08):
I think the one you would like is what we call
the coat of arms.
So it's a hoodie and on onesleeve it's all the different uh
emblems of the different unitsthat the Japanese American
soldiers spot in.

Scott McLean (36:18):
Oh, consider that one bought, okay, absolutely
bought.
Okay, absolutely, absolutely.
That's great.
So it's basically you'regetting them to kind of learn
about it and then pass it on.
It's, it's, it's almost in.
In.
In situations like that, Ibelieve, if you have 20 young

(36:39):
people come in, if one of themcatches, catches on and says
yeah, then that whole thing wasit's all worth it, right, it's
just all worth it, right?
You know?

Dr. Mitch Maki (36:50):
and fortunately for us, our return rate's a
little bit better than one outof 20, but no, yeah, that's
great yeah you're not going toget everybody right, but if you
get people who say, yeah, youknow, I want and the term we use
is I want to be civicallyengaged, I want to be engaged
with community, whatever thatmeans to them Right, and I want

(37:13):
to do it in a way that serves acause larger than myself.

Scott McLean (37:17):
So where does the gopher broke journalism
Institute fit into that?
Are they kind of connected inthat sense?

Dr. Mitch Maki (37:26):
Kind of a loose way, and the journalism program
is something that we justrecently started.
We work with a downtown magnethigh school in Los Angeles, so
we're looking at ways ofexpanding this program to other
high schools and so forth.
But basically what we did is wetake juniors from this high

(37:49):
school who are interested injournalism, either as kind of a
profession that they may want topursue or just they like
writing.
We gather them for an intensiveduring the summer.
We provide them with top-notchjournalists, mentors, people
from the LA Times, washingtonPost, new York Times, the local

(38:10):
news TV stations, so these arelike celebrity journalists
coming in and doingpresentations and then they
mentor them one-on-one.
But the very first thing we dois we teach them the Japanese
American soldier story of.

Scott McLean (38:25):
World War II.

Dr. Mitch Maki (38:26):
I do the presentation because these kids
have never heard of it right.
And these kids, none of them,none of them are Japanese
American, because they're allcoming from inner city LA.
So they learn the story andthen we give them assignment
Take this World War II story andapply it to today in whatever
way, shape or form you want todo it.

(38:47):
So some of them talk about oh,so-and-so became a nurse in
World War II, I'm going tobecome a nurse in 2024.
So it can be as personal asthat.
Or others get a little bit moreconceptual and they say you
know, racism 85 years ago,racism today, but whatever they
can do or interest them to makea connection with the past to

(39:10):
the present, and that way, youknow, they learn the story.
But their report or theirjournalistic piece isn't
supposed to be a book report ora history report, it's just the
foundation to talk aboutsomething that's important to
them.
And it can lead to college orWell, so about two years ago we

(39:30):
had a young woman.
She came in, she did a story ona guy named Kazuo Masuda, and
I'd love to tell you that storyin a second.
But she did this journalisticpiece on Kazuo Masuda and based
on that she got invited to theUSC University of Southern
California Journalism Institute,which is really big time.

(39:51):
For the following year.
She went to that programbecause she used her Kazuo
Masuda piece as her applicationand she's graduating from high
school and hopefully going on tocollege and will be looking at
becoming a journalism major.
So you know, we're plantingthose seeds.

Scott McLean (40:09):
So tell me about her subject matter.

Dr. Mitch Maki (40:13):
Right.
So during World War II, therewas a soldier named Kazuo Masuda
and a reporter asked him whyare you fighting for America
when your family is in a camp?
His family was in Gila RiverCamp in Arizona and his answer
was the answer that I think mostAmericans, most of the Japanese

(40:35):
Americans at that time, wouldhave given, which was because
this is the only way that I knowthat my family can have a
chance in America.
You know, right or wrong, agreewith him or not.
Kazuo Masuda and the thousandsof other Japanese American
soldiers understood that in 1943, 1944, 1945, loyalty needed to

(40:59):
be demonstrated in blood.
Two weeks after he said thatSergeant Masuda was killed in
battle, fighting for America inItaly.
Now, fast forward 40 years later.
It's the 1980s and the redressbill that I had told you about
has passed the House.

(41:19):
This incredible.
We called it the impossibledream of ever getting an apology
, let alone money.
But this impossible dreampasses the House on September
17th 1987.
Seven months later, it passesthe Senate.
It's only one signature awayfrom becoming law, and that's,
of course, the President of theUnited States right, and in 1988

(41:43):
, the President of the UnitedStates right, and in 1988, the
president of the United Stateswas none other than Ronald.

Scott McLean (41:48):
Reagan right.

Dr. Mitch Maki (41:50):
And for your viewers or listeners who
remember, ronald Reagan was avery conservative president and
there were many of us, myselfincluded, who thought there's no
way Ronald Reagan is going tosign this bill.
It's just a little bit tooprogressive or a little bit too
left, whatever you want to say,to fit you know his political

(42:11):
viewpoint.
But the thing about RonaldReagan whether you agreed with
him or not, whether you agreedwith his policies or not, most
people would agree that RonaldReagan was a great communicator.
He had the ability to tellstories that would touch
people's hearts and move them ina certain direction.
The opposite was true of RonaldReagan.
If you could tell him a storythat would touch his heart,

(42:44):
understand this whole issue on avery personal level and align
it with his political viewpoint.
And you know, ronald Reaganbelieved that America could be
multicultural, that people couldcome from around the world and
become Americans eventually.
Well, go back now to KazuoMasuda, his family.
He's been killed in battle.

(43:04):
Go back now to Kazuo Masuda,his family.
He's been killed in battle.
His family is released fromcamp at the end of the war and
they want to move back home toSanta Ana, california.
They go back to Santa Ana,california, and they're met with
nothing but hate speech, racialtaunts and threats of bodily
harm.
Right and the army realizes thisis a PR fiasco.
One of our own fallen soldiersor one of our own heroes, his

(43:27):
own family can't move back home.
So they send out a contingentof army officers to have a medal
ceremony for the Masuda familyand they bestow upon his sister
the Distinguished Service Cross.
The second highest medal Amongthose officers on that day was a
young white American captainnamed Ronald Reagan, and that

(43:50):
night they had a conventiondinner, a rally, and Captain
Ronald Reagan addresses theaudience and the Masuda family
is there, and what CaptainReagan says at the time is the
blood that has soaked into thesands of a beach is all of one
color.
America stands, unique in theworld, the only country not

(44:12):
founded on race but on an ideal.
Mr and Mrs Masuda, as onemember of the American family to
another, for what your sonKazuo did, thanks.
You can't script this anybetter.

Scott McLean (44:26):
No, that's amazing .

Dr. Mitch Maki (44:27):
So that story was found and it's relayed to
President Reagan in the mid-'80s.
As this bill is working, in.
Congress and his response was Iremember what those soldiers
did for America, and it wasn'tthe only reason he signed the
bill, but it aligned the billwith his view of America being a

(44:50):
place where people could comefrom across the world and become
American.
So Kazuo Masuda's statementthat this is the only way I know
that my family could have achance in America how prophetic
is that.

Scott McLean (45:04):
Unbelievable.

Dr. Mitch Maki (45:06):
It's an incredible story.

Scott McLean (45:08):
That goes right to the roots.
And now Mitch every episode, Ido a cheap plug for my
non-profit One man, one MicFoundation.
And one of the pillars isstorytelling.
Yes, and how effective a storycan be if you know how to really
tell it and know how you'reaffecting people when you tell

(45:30):
it, and that's an art form andthings like that.
Stories like that are proofthat storytelling is so
overlooked.
We do it every day, we don'tthink much about it, but it the
effect that storytelling canhave on anybody, or anything can
can change your life.
It can change a country it can.

(45:53):
It can it's that powerful andthat story is amazing and I'm
sure people that are listeningto this are going to go holy
shit, that's amazing.

Dr. Mitch Maki (46:03):
I mean you.
It's the kind kind of thing ifyou wrote it into a movie script
, people say, oh, that part theymade that up.

Scott McLean (46:09):
They made it up exactly so when truth is
stranger than fiction.
Right, Right, right.

Dr. Mitch Maki (46:14):
And Scott, as you mentioned earlier, you and I
will have more conversations.
I can tell, but I really wouldlike to see how we can find our
common ground in our interest instorytelling, because in fact
we're thinking of expanding ourjournalism program to being a
storytelling program.
You know, whether it's spokenword, whether it's poetry,

(46:35):
whether it's whatevercomposition or whether it's
journalism, there's manydifferent ways to tell a story
different ways to tell the story.

Scott McLean (46:46):
I would love to have that conversation, multiple
conversations about this,because that's what my
foundation is really all about,and because it helped me, and I
paid attention to it, though,and that's why I said wait a
minute, there's something here,and so we will definitely have.
I can give you idea, I can tellyou how we'd, whatever I could
do to help you.
That would be amazing.

(47:07):
That would be amazing.
I think we're going to betalking yes, we'll be talking a
few more times at least.
So then there is the go forbroke plaza.
Let's talk about that for aminute.

Dr. Mitch Maki (47:24):
Well, unfortunately, your listeners
can't see me and my backdropright now.

Scott McLean (47:30):
But they can go online and look it up, because
it's amazing.

Dr. Mitch Maki (47:33):
Right, we have a gopher broke monument that was
built in 1999 in downtown LosAngeles in what's called the
Little Tokyo District.
It's a beautiful monument.
It's black granite.
It's sloped to reflect themountains the Vosges Mountains
of northern France, where the442nd liberated the Texas

(47:56):
Battalion.
There are 16,000 names on themonument of those who served
overseas.
It's just a very beautifulmonument.
But it sat literally in themiddle of a parking lot for 25
years.
I mean, if you look at photosof it and people ask us, why did

(48:17):
you build this in the middle ofa parking lot?
Right, and it's because the andI wasn't active at that time,
but the people who built it knewthat someday we could transform
that parking lot into somethingmore.
Well, that someday came tofruition earlier this year, in
February, when we broke groundon a building that is going to

(48:40):
now surround and embrace themonument, and this is a huge
building.
It's 330,000 square feet, it'sfive stories tall.
Gopher Broke will have about10,000 square feet of operating
space in there, but we're goingto have, on the first floor,
legacy businesses, and what Imean by legacy businesses?

(49:02):
These are restaurants andbusinesses that have been in the
Little Tokyo area, some of whomhave been evicted because the
landlords wanted higher rent,and they are now signed letters
of intent to come back and willreestablish themselves in this
area, and floors two throughfive will have 248 units of

(49:25):
affordable, low-income housing.
So, for those of your listenerswho know Los Angeles, we have an
affordable housing crisis.
In Los Angeles, we have reallya big unhoused issue, but we're
going to provide housing, andthese are not just singles.
These are two-bedroom andthree-bedroom units.

(49:48):
This is for families, right,where we're going to have about
700 individuals living in thisbuilding and these people are
going to be paying rent.
They're going to beworking-class folks that are
trying to make it.
Yes, their income qualifiesthem for some subsidies that
will help them get along, butthey're making their way.
This is not a housing unit wherepeople are just getting by for

(50:13):
free or anything like that, andso what we like to say is our
veterans took care of us 80years ago when they fought for
our future.
They still are taking care ofus by providing us this
opportunity to reinvigorate thelittle Tokyo district by
bringing in the legacybusinesses and restaurants, but
also to help the city of LosAngeles by bringing in

(50:37):
individuals of all backgrounds,right?
So let me be clear this is nota Japanese American thing.
There are going to be people ofall backgrounds living in these
units, and they'll be learningthe gopher broke story too,
because we want them to knowthat.
What's this?
Gopher broke plaza, you know, Imean that's great man.

Scott McLean (50:57):
This is so inspiring that and I've never
really said that during apodcast, but this is absolutely
inspiring like go for broke isreally like making a difference
in a big way.
That's generational.
This will be generational, yes,and it's not what all

(51:19):
non-profits strive for, right,right and so with that.
So Go4Broke I don't know if Iasked you how long has it been
around?

Dr. Mitch Maki (51:27):
So we were founded in 1989, so we've been
around 35 years or so and it wasfounded by the actual veterans
who came back and said we wantto do something that our legacy
will not ever be forgotten.
And again, when they said thatit wasn't in an egotistical way

(51:48):
of you know, watch what I did oryou know, but it's the story
and the values and the legacythat they embodied that they
wanted to make sure would bepassed on to generations to come
.
And so they created that, uh,the organization, in 1989.
And, um, you know, over thedecades we've been doing

(52:10):
different programming and soforth, but, as we just mentioned
here, our latest is our nextgen programming and building the
new building.

Scott McLean (52:19):
That in itself would be an amazing story.
To find out that, what, like,what was the?
The one moment where these,these guys looked at each other
and said let's do this, likewhat led right into that.
Like what was the conversation?
What was the, the feel likewhat was the?
And then you flick that switchand you say you know,

(52:45):
thunderbirds are go See me andMitch had this little nerd off.
And that's why he gets it.

Dr. Mitch Maki (52:55):
Well, I can tell you that opens up a whole other
chapter in all this.
One of the commanding officersof this 442nd unit was a guy
named Young Ok Kim, aKorean-American and for your
listeners who know traditionallyKorean-Americans and

(53:16):
Japanese-Americans or Koreansand Japanese don't get along
right.
So Young Ok Kim, at the time wasa lieutenant and he was
assigned to the 442nd.
At the time was a lieutenantand he was assigned to the 442nd
and his commanding officercalled him in one day and said
hey, I know you're Korean, theseguys are Japanese, I'm going to
have you reassigned.
And young old Kim looked at himand he goes no, sir, they're

(53:36):
Americans, I'm an American,we're going to do this together.
And at first the JapaneseAmerican soldiers didn't know
what to make of him, right?
But then he turned out to beexcuse my French a real badass,
Right?
I mean, he was the World War IIRambo where at night the other
guys would dig foxholes.

(53:57):
He would just lay on the groundand sleep on the ground.
The guys would sleep.
He'd go into the forest andcome back with two Nazi
prisoners, type of thing.
Yeah, I mean he led.
Go into the forest and comeback with two Nazi prisoners,
type of thing.
Yeah, I mean he.
He led by example and the menjust followed him and loved him.
He came back to Los Angelesafter the war along with the
other soldiers and it wasthrough his vision and

(54:17):
inspiration that he said wecannot let this story be
forgotten.
Let's do this, let's, let'screate this organization and
let's build this monument.
So they created an organizationand then it took them about 10
years to get the monument, youknow the money raised and then
to build it right.
And it leads all to anotherimportant point, which is that

(54:38):
people have oftentimes said tome oh so, when all the veterans
have died and they're no longerwith us, then go for broke,
We'll just close up shop, Right?
And I said, no, we were builtfor this moment.
We were built when, for themoment when the first person
voice is no longer available,that it's now our responsibility

(55:00):
to articulate and carry on this, this legacy and this history.

Scott McLean (55:06):
And there's always going to be veterans.
And there's always going to beveterans.
There's always going to beveterans.

Dr. Mitch Maki (55:10):
Yes.

Scott McLean (55:12):
Well, I should say , hopefully not a lot of war
veterans, but we are realisticabout things, right right, A
veteran is a veteran regardless.
So how do veterans are there?
Are there veterans incorporatedinto go for broke?
Uh, your programming, uh, your,I don't know.

(55:36):
Are you philanthropic withveteran organizations?
Is there any type of um, uh,what is it?
Collaborations or anything likethat?

Dr. Mitch Maki (55:47):
So certainly you know, the few World War II
Japanese American veterans whowe know of, we incorporate into
our programming as much as wecan.
Yeah, Because, as you canimagine, when we have a
convening of young people, if wehave a veteran, just come by
for lunch, you know there's aline to shake his hand and so

(56:09):
forth.
I mean, this is living history,right?
We also, at the same time, arevery cognizant.
These guys are 9,900 years old.
We don't want to overtax them,but the guys I know they're
always happy, they all want tocome talk to young people, you
know, and so forth.
We do do work with otherveteran organizations, either

(56:31):
World War II veteranorganizations or sometimes
they're just veteransorganizations.
And you know, certainly thetruth is we are a nonprofit.
We're always in the business ofraising money and trying to get
people to become interested inwhat we do and certainly support
us through any kind of donationthat they can make.

Scott McLean (56:49):
So that is a great lead-in to what I was going to
ask next.
First of all, Give the Listenis a website they can go to.

Dr. Mitch Maki (56:58):
Go for Broke, so G-O-F-O-R.
Broke, b-r-o-k-e org.
And there they can read aboutthe actual guns, battles and
bullets part of the story.
They can also see, as you have,scott, about our next-gen
programming, about our newbuilding.
They can also find out otherinformation about things that

(57:21):
we're doing, like we have atraveling exhibit right now that
is in Boise, idaho.
They can also go and look atour merchandise and look at our
hoodies.

Scott McLean (57:31):
Yeah, that cool hoodie that I'm going to buy,
probably before the end of thenight, okay, and so you
mentioned we kind of touched onanother thing and every
nonprofit now this is is a it'sa veteran-centric podcast and
it's there was a emphasis andthere is an emphasis on

(57:53):
interviewing nonprofits thatwork with veterans or, as in
this case, inspired by andcreated by veterans and the
legacy of their, of their work.
Um, every non-profit wants toknow funding.
Right, you go for broke is onanother level, because there are

(58:17):
levels of, uh, of non-profits.
You know they go from small tolarge to then you've got the big
boys right there and you know.
Now the question is alwaysfunding, how do you go about it?
Fundraisers, you have.
Donors, do you have?
You know what's that like forgo for broke?

Dr. Mitch Maki (58:38):
Any and anything we will do.
Primarily it's a lot ofindividual donations, a lot of
folks who believe in what we'redoing, but certainly we've
received a number of grants fromfoundations to do the
programming that we do.

(58:59):
We have corporate support, youknow, and we do major
fundraisers throughout the year.
So, again, everything we couldpossibly do to keep the doors
open and the lights on, tocontinue to tell this story.

Scott McLean (59:13):
So you're the president right.
So somewhat the face of it.
What was it like then, and what?

Dr. Mitch Maki (59:20):
was it.
What's it like now for?

Scott McLean (59:32):
the two words that every nonprofit either dreads
or just goes.
Oh, the ask.
Right, you're out there, you'regoing to put it to it.
And the ask does it get easieras it goes along.
Was it difficult when you firststarted doing it?
Or if you start?
You know the handshaking andthe.

(59:54):
What can you say about that?

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:00:00):
You are.
You know, it is probably themost challenging part of my job,
but also the most rewardingpart of my job, and why I said
that.
I just came from a lunch with adonor that turned out to be
successful and the lunch waslike three hours long.

(01:00:20):
You know, I think what I'velearned over the years is how to
do the ask better and how totime the ask, because it's all
about timing, as is everythingin life right, and when you do
it right and what I mean byright is the person fully is

(01:00:46):
engaged with what you do.
The person sees how they plugin to what we are doing and how
what we are doing plugs intowhat is important to them.
The ask isn't that hard, youknow, but it's when you go up to
somebody cold and say, scott,we just met an hour ago, give me
a million bucks, dude.

(01:01:09):
Well, you sold me on a hoodie,so you're good.
Oh, I didn't tell you thehoodie is a million dollars.

Scott McLean (01:01:18):
Touché, my friend touché.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:01:20):
But if the timing isn't right if you don't
have that relationship, if youdon't have this sense of common
ground, as we've talked about,and that I'm not asking you to
help me, I'm asking you to helpus, because this story, for
whatever reason, that's part offiguring out how to do the ask.

(01:01:44):
For whatever reason, what we dois important to you.
Figuring out how to do the askFor whatever reason, this, what
we do, is important to you andwe're going to emphasize that.
So when I do it right and whenI say I, I mean that as a team,
because there's a whole team ofpeople behind me I mean I often
joke that it's my, it's my teamthat does all the hard work and
I just show up and turn on thecharm.

(01:02:08):
You know, I pick the fruits thatthey labor so hard to plant,
right.
But when you do it right andthere's this feeling of coming
together with that donor andthem feeling like, okay, you
know, we're moving in the samedirection, it's very, very
rewarding.
Hey, we're moving in the samedirection, it's very, very
rewarding.
And when you do it wrong andyou realize, boy, I missed time

(01:02:30):
or I misread, or the fit justisn't there, then it's a
learning opportunity to say howdo I do that better and not make
that mistake again?

Scott McLean (01:02:40):
I kind of work under this concept of good.
So we had our first fundraiserright recently and we we pretty
much just broke even.
I think we made 40 dollarsright and you get with the board
and it's like but I looked atit like good, good, we didn't

(01:03:03):
lose money.
Now we have an opportunity tobe better and learn how to make
it better, and I think a lot ofnonprofits have to live off that
concept of good, good.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:03:16):
And the fact that you had a fundraiser that
didn't lose money suggests to methat you had a successful
friend raiser.
Yes, you know that.
You know you are solidifyingyour relationships with these
people and and relationships areso important to getting to that
fundraising part.
If you don't have arelationship, you're not going
to raise any funds.

Scott McLean (01:03:37):
Right, right, and the friend raiser, that was a
whole nother thing and I didvery well with that because I
have a lot of community, fromgrowing up in Boston to the
military, to customs.
So I I I'm fortunate enough tohave a large group of friends
and they really came through.
But that whole concept of good,good, I'm not hanging my head,

(01:04:00):
I'm not like, ah, you know thatwe didn't get enough money and
we, we made 40 bucks.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:04:07):
Yeah, and solidified friendships exactly
exactly now.

Scott McLean (01:04:11):
More people will come and I'm going to tell you
about that fundraiser anothertime.
I think you'd be veryinterested in it.
Uh, it's all.
The whole concept of it wasstorytelling, so it's very
interesting.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:04:21):
Would love to hear that.

Scott McLean (01:04:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So have I forgotten anything,my friend?
Is there anything that you wantto touch on that I might not
have?

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:04:33):
Well, you know, I think what we didn't talk
about and understandably so, iswe didn't talk about the guns,
battles and bullets aspects ofthis.
Let's talk.
Didn't talk about the guns,battles and bullets aspects of
this, and let's talk.
I would well, and I wouldwelcome your viewers either to
reach out to us or, you know,I'd be more than happy to come
back on another.
Oh, you're gonna be gone againuh, to talk about, and because

(01:04:58):
there may be some of yourlisteners who would be very
interested in that saying well,what exactly did they do to
become the most highly decoratedunit of their size?
And you know, I don't want toglamorize war, I mean, that's
certainly not my intent but thecourage that some of these men

(01:05:18):
showed in Europe.
For example, at the very end ofthe war, the Nazis had formed
what was known as the GothicLine in Italy and it was their
last line of defense before theUS could just break through that
and charge straight up intoGermany and win the war.

(01:05:39):
But the Nazis had fortifiedthis Gothic Line and nobody
could break through it.
So finally, they said let'ssend a 442nd to break through,
you know, because they had beenhaving huge success in other
ways.
Well, the leaders of the 442ndwent and scoped out the area and
said there's no way we can do afrontal attack.

(01:06:00):
We'll just get mowed down likeeverybody else Right at.
Mowed down like everybody elseright.
So what they decide to do is,at night, sneak around to the
back and literally crawl upalmost a vertical cliff in the
dead of night, to surprise theNazis in the morning and one of
our current veterans.

(01:06:20):
Yoshinaka Murrow was one ofthose young men.
He was like 19, 20 years oldand tells me that was the first
time in his life.
He thought he was going to be agoner because he said it was so
dark.
As they were climbing thebackside of this cliff, they
literally had to put their handon the guy in front of them to
know where they were walking,you know.
And they made a pact with oneanother If any of them were to

(01:06:44):
fall they can't yell out,because to do so would give away
their position they scaled.
It wasn't a completely verticalcliff, but it was very steep.
They scaled that cliff in themiddle of the night, got up
there before the break of dawn,waited and at the break of dawn,
charged.
And the Nazis were completelysurprised.

(01:07:05):
Surprised, facing the wrongdirection because they they were
prepared for an onslaught inthe other way and within less
than half an hour, broke thatarea of the gothic line, thus
creating an uh, an opportunityfor american troops to start to
flood through the gothic line,creating the beginning of the
end of world war II.
Yeah, so that's one story,right, and if I can share, just

(01:07:28):
two others, Absolutely my friend.
The artillery unit of the 442ndtowards the end of the war was
the point of the spear as theywere pushing the Nazis back into
Germany, and they were known asthe 522nd.
They were the military unit andthey were used because military

(01:07:50):
units do a lot of reconnaissancethey go out in front and scope
out everything.
Anyway, they're pushing theNazis back and they stumble upon
this large installation, thislarge camp-like facility.
They have no idea what it is.
So they start going closer andthey see large lumps on the
ground covered with snow andthey thought they were logs.
But then, as they got closer,they realized they weren't logs.

(01:08:13):
They were the frozen bodies ofJewish inmates.
This was a satellite of Dachauthat they had just discovered,
and they flung open the gates,saving hundreds, if not
thousands, of Jewish prisonersthat were still there in that
concentration camp.
Imagine the irony Scott ofthese young Japanese Americans

(01:08:38):
throwing open the gates, youknow, freeing these Jewish
prisoners, while their ownfamilies are still in on back
home exactly freeing thesejewish prisoners while their own
families are still in prisonback home.
You know unfortunately there'snot a lot of photos of that day
because the army didn't wantthat to be publicized that it
was a japanese american unitthat liberated that satellite of

(01:09:00):
doghouse.
So they waited to the next day,when the white unit came in,
and then that's where we have alot of photos.
But there were a couple of guysthat had cameras, so there are
individual photos where you seeJapanese-American soldiers
amongst these Jewish inmates.

Scott McLean (01:09:15):
Where would those be found if someone wanted to
just Google them?

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:09:18):
You can find it on our website.
You can find it also in theNational Archives.
Wow, you can find it also inthe National Archives.
And then in the Pacific Theater, japanese Americans served, but
not in units, not in segregatedunits.
These were the young JapaneseAmerican men who could speak and

(01:09:39):
write Japanese, so they wouldoften serve as translators and
interpreters.
So they would often serve astranslators and interpreters and
they'd capture POWs and theywould translate the
interrogation and so forth.
But they did so much more thanthat no-transcript.

(01:10:11):
And so the Marines that werethere were just waiting for them
, and even General MacArthurtalked about how no military
unit was ever better preparedthan the US troops because of
the intelligence that JapaneseAmerican soldiers would provide.
But the one story that I loveto tell is there was a story of

(01:10:34):
a Japanese American soldier.
He was in a unit and you know,imagine, at least with the 442nd
in Europe.
You're amongst all these otherJapanese Americans, you know,
because it's a segregated unitIn the Pacific theory.
You're amongst all these otherJapanese Americans, you know,
because it's a segregated unitIn the Pacific theory.
You're the only one you know.
So you're a sole JapaneseAmerican translator attached to
a military.
You know a marine unit or soforth, and initially the Marines

(01:10:57):
didn't know what to make ofthese guys right, it's like, hey
, that's the enemy right.
And so they had to provethemselves to their fellow
soldiers.

(01:11:27):
And towards the end of the war,as the US troops were taking
over all the different islands,they landed on Saipan and they
into caves and hole up in thecaves and either execute the
civilians or use them to get out.
Well, the US troops had pushedthem to the north of this island
, in Saipan, and there wereabout eight Japanese troops that
had taken about 100 civilianshostages and they were holed up
in a cave and the Marines werejust going to wait them out, you

(01:11:49):
know.
And then they were going to seeif they could go in there and
maybe have a firefight orwhatever.
But Bob Kubo, who was theinterpreter, said no, I've seen
too many of our young men die.
You know young American men,white soldiers.
He said too many of them havedied.
I'm going in there, I'm goingto talk them out.

(01:12:10):
And his own commanding officersaid I don't think that's a good
idea, but he goes, no, I'll goin.
And the commanding officer saidat least take a pistol, you
know.
So he had.
They had a pistol in his bootor something, but he.
But, as the story goes, theylowered him into the cave and he
walks into the cave and he saidwithin 10 seconds he's

(01:12:31):
surrounded by eight soldiers,guns drawn.
He spoke to them in Japanese,talked to them about how they
needed to surrender, to let thecivilians go.
And the Japanese soldiers werequestioning him.
You know, how can you fight forthe Americans?
You're a traitor.
And he said you know, I fightfor my emperor, I fight for my

(01:12:54):
nation, and my nation is America.
So you know putting it in termsthat the Japanese soldiers
really understand.
Finally, they said to him okay,we're going to talk about it,
we're going to let you go, butwe're going to talk about it.
We're going to let you go, butwe're going to talk about it,
whether we're going to come outat two o'clock or whatever the
time is.
Either we're going to come outor, if we don't come out, that
means we're all dead in here,right?

(01:13:16):
So they let him go.
Bob goes back to his troop.
They're waiting patiently.
Two o'clock, the civiliansstart filing out of the cave and
the Japanese soldiers try tofile out with them to escape.
Oh, yeah, yeah yeah and so forth, but again, the amount of
courage that that took, theamount of heroism that that took

(01:13:38):
and it wasn't self-serving,obviously, because he put
himself in harm's way to protectnot only the civilians that
were in the cave but his ownfellow american soldiers, right?
So these are just tidbits ofthe story that we tell, that you
know it and that.
So I don't mean to to belittlethat the guns, battles and

(01:13:59):
bullets aspect of it, because ohno, it's, it's a big part of it
it's, it's part of the historyof it.
Absolutely.
That's so inspiring.
It's a combination of beinginspired by their courage but
then being inspired to.
You don't have to pick up a gunnow.
You have to pick up a petitionor whatever it is to get your

(01:14:20):
viewpoint across.

Scott McLean (01:14:21):
Wow.
So everyone always says this,but this rings true, for this is
why wasn't that a movie?
Why isn't that?
Because that's that story is,just you know, so unique yeah,
and there been there.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:14:36):
There was a gopher broke movie in the 50s,
uh, but with johnson it justnever made it super big right?
Yeah, um, there is a book outnow called Facing the Mountain.

Scott McLean (01:14:47):
I was going to ask you about publications.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:14:49):
OK, so there's a book out called Facing the
Mountain which is kind of ahistorical fiction.
I mean, the author, DanielBrown, uses a lot of real
stories and he just massagesthem into a novel, massages them
into a novel.
And he wrote a book about theboys in the boat, about I think
it's a English crew team.

(01:15:10):
That was made into a movie.
So there's talk about themmaking that into a movie.

Scott McLean (01:15:16):
That would be an amazing movie, yeah.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:15:19):
I think part of it is and this is not so true
now, but it's probably true morein the 50s, 60s and 70s that
you didn't see a lot of moviesabout Americans who were not
white in those decades.
Right More recently, in the2000s and 2010s, you start to

(01:15:40):
see movies about ethnicAmericans and their
contributions to America.
So I'm hoping that you knowthere will be a time when we can
really celebrate what all ofour communities have done to
make America what it is today.

Scott McLean (01:15:58):
I think that's Veterans Day.
I think because we all cometogether on Veterans Day, yeah,
and people don't really get this.
90% and I can't say 100% ofanything, but 90% of veterans
could give a shit who's next tothem.
That's a fact, yeah, butunfortunately it gets maybe

(01:16:23):
portrayed differently or it getsin recent times, has been put
into another perspective.
That doesn't make sense to me,because I lived it for 10 years.
But, yeah, we're all, we're allthe same when we put the
uniform on it's.
That's absolutely.
It's.
It's cliche, but it's true,right, you know?

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:16:43):
what people you?

Scott McLean (01:16:44):
were talking about .
The men you were talking aboutare perfect examples of that.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:16:47):
Yes, yes, one of the veterans, one of our
veterans, was telling me youknow, one of the values he
learned during that time is youlook to your left, you look to
your right and you take care ofeach other.

Scott McLean (01:16:58):
That's right.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:16:59):
And that's not true just for Japanese American
veterans, that's true for allthe veterans.
Right, you look to your left,you look to your right, you take
care of each other because that, in the end, that's all you
have.
And in truth, that's true forus in America today.
Let's look to the left, let'slook to the right, because, in
the end, that's all we have iseach other, because nobody's

(01:17:19):
going to come from outside ournation to save us.

Scott McLean (01:17:21):
No, no, that's, and that's true.
Words haven't been spoken.
Uh well, anything else, we gottime.
I'm not, you know.
Is this something you want totouch on?
I don't know.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:17:34):
I don't want to miss anything on this and, as I,
as I mentioned uh to you, Iwould be happy to come back on,
possibly bring a torchbearer ortwo, or bring a veteran, you
know, whatever you think mightbe of interest.
But I want to thank you for thework that you're doing.
Scott, you know one.

(01:17:56):
This has been delightful, it'sbeen fun and the time has just
flown by, but thank you forgiving platform to this story,
as well as to the other gueststhat you have, and the work that
you do is very meaningful.

Scott McLean (01:18:12):
Thank you, I appreciate that, and there's no
end in sight.
I'm going for broke Mitch.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:18:18):
I love it.

Scott McLean (01:18:19):
You're broke.
You do that, so all right, Ihave to say that this is being
recorded on december 20th and II truly mean this when I say
this was.
This was an early christmaspresent for me.
This was an amazing interview.
This is fun.
I, I I got to.

(01:18:40):
I got to talk to a, to anothernerd, another comic book.
He's a marvel nerd.
I like Batman personally.
We discussed that before thepodcast.
But, mitch, I look forward tokeeping in touch with you.
I think we have things that wecan do together.
Even though I'm on the totalopposite side of the country, we

(01:19:00):
can still work together and anyhelp I can give you and your
foundation, just reach out to meif you want to promote
something whatever.
Whenever you want to come backon you, let me know and you got
the spot.
I'll bump you to the top of thelist.
I don't care what the peoplebehind you say, it's my podcast.

Dr. Mitch Maki (01:19:19):
Thank you so much, scott, and again, it's
been a true delight.
And so to your listeners, andagain, it's been a true delight.
And so to your listeners, happyholidays, and to you happy
holidays, and I hope you have agood holiday season with your
family.

Scott McLean (01:19:32):
I appreciate that and stand by.
Let me do my outro and thenwe'll talk a little more when we
get done.
Well, all right, we builtanother bridge today, as this
podcast was built to do, and Iwant to thank Dr Mitch McKay for
coming on and being sucha greatinterview.
I want to thank you forlistening.
If you'd like to share it, uh,if you want to find out what

(01:19:53):
platforms are on, we're on allof them.
I could get on the list Apple,amazon, spotify, we're on all of
them.
So, if you like it, share it.
And, as I always say, thank youfor supporting me and listening

(01:20:13):
.
It's caught some legs and caughtsome traction, and the podcast
is being productive and that'swhat I did it for.
You can't give a podcast abetter gift than that.
And also listen to the end ofthe episode.
There's a good public serviceannouncement for veterans,
families of veterans andcivilians in general.

(01:20:33):
It's about two, one, one andnine eight, eight.
It's 30 seconds long.
Just give it a listen.
It's very informative and, withall that, I will see you next
Monday or you'll hear me nextMonday with the new episode.