Ep. 44 - Talking With Lindsey Hildebrand From The Florida LEADS Project (Launch Engage Activate Departments and Systems for Zero Suicide) - The VetsConnection Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Scott McLean (00:00):
Welcome to the podcast.
I'm Scott.
My guest today is LindsayHildebrand.
Lindsay is with the FloridaLeads Project.
Florida Leads Project meaningLaunch, engage, activate
Departments and Systems for ZeroSuicide Project seeks to
transform and improve suicidecare practices, standards and

(00:21):
outcomes in service deliverysystems throughout rural and
urban counties in northeast,northwest, central and west
florida.
Did I, did I get that right,lindsey?
That's correct absolutely lookat that first.
Try no edit here.

Lindsey Hildebrand (00:37):
No not at all how you doing today I'm
doing well.

Thanks for having me that's Thank you for coming
on.
So I had heard about Floridaleads through my friend, henry
Angulo with the Firewatch, and Ihad the privilege to be in one
of the veteran focus groups forleads and I found it very
interesting, very informative,very important.

(01:03):
So I decided you know what thisneeds to be an episode on my
podcast.
And again, thank you, thank youfor accepting the invitation.
Yeah, so, lindsay, tell us alittle about yourself, where
you're from and how you got intothis space.

Sure, so I currently live in North Carolina
but I am a graduate researchassistant with the Florida Leads
Project down at the Universityof Central Florida.
But originally I'm actuallyfrom Minnesota.
I bounced around with themilitary on active duty for a
little bit before transitioningout into my civilian career,

(01:41):
which has been focused on socialwork, predominantly with the
veteran population and lookingat suicidality and stuff, which
is why I decided to join theFlorida Leads Research Project
with Dr Grigolowicz.
So that's kind of how I endedup in the space that I'm in,
especially as I was going upthrough my career.

(02:03):
I think a lot of veterans, a lotof folks that are still in, can
relate to this.
I think there's not one personthat I know in the service that
doesn't know somebody that hasbeen lost to suicide, and I
think that's just theunfortunate reality of the space
that we're in.
And so because of that I kindof pushed myself into this space
and thinking about this from aperspective and a social work

(02:28):
perspective.
Institutions can really helpwith this problem from a public
health perspective and reallytrying to translate that to be

(02:48):
able to reduce suicide rates.

What branch of the military were you in?

I was in the Army.
I was a military intelligenceofficer, which I suppose is the
largest oxymoron.
As they say so.
They say so.
I'm not sure whether I believein believe in calling it
military intelligence so that'swhat I was, and how long did you

(03:15):
serve?
So I served for about four yearson active duty.
I am just actually getting outthis year from the reserves and
stuff, getting out this yearfrom the reserves and stuff.
So I've like decided to finallylike half off my time and I was
ready to kind of put all myeggs in the basket of kind of
transitioning to my civiliancareer and focusing on my social
work career so I can work withveterans predominantly.

So at what point did you flick the switch and say
you know what?
Because that's kind of a that'sa big jump going from military
intelligence into what you donow.
That's as I say, when I was inI was a canine handler for US

(03:59):
Customs and Border Protectionhere in South Florida and I was
on an anti-terrorism,anti-smuggling unit the drug dog
.
It was kind of high speed.
Then I went my last four yearsto an office job, wanted to did
enough with the dogs.
It's kind of a young man's gameand, as I said, it's like going
from being a plumber to alawyer, right.

(04:22):
Totally different things beingout with you with your dog in
your vehicle, doing whatever wedid, and then all of a sudden
I'm reporting to a cubicle rightWith a computer.
So how, how, where did thatchange happen for you?

I think a lot of it.
I grew up in research.
In my undergraduate career Ithought immediately after I got
done with my undergrad I wasgoing to move on to a PhD in
like clinical psychology andreally following that
traditional psych route, and soI was like I think I had an itch

(04:59):
, I kind of needed to kind ofscratch and I was, as I was like
commissioning through ROTC.
It's like you know I'm going toreally regret it if I don't go
active duty.
Maybe in hindsight that wasn'tthe best decision, but I'm
really happy about the way itturned out because I think it
gave me a lot more perspective,especially thinking about it

(05:20):
from a translational side, ofwhy veterans are coming out with
the issues that they have youknow knowing and being in the
system I'm sure you can relateto this, scott, and stuff of
like seeing kind of the systemicbarriers and issues that a lot
of our service members face andgetting quality mental health
care in the active duty spaceand just the latency of those

(05:43):
issues really being, you know,dealt with and stuff is, you
know, kind of harboring theseverity and the intensity of
the problems that we're seeingonce veterans do kind of
transition now and stuff.
Time really put things intoperspective for me about how

(06:06):
these issues were not reallygoing to get any better until we
started.
Kind of addressing it from atranslational perspective, but
also like thinking about that ina longitudinal space, because
often it gets so siloed off intoa point where it's like okay,
mental health or like activeduty and stuff, and not really
thinking about how that's goingto affect some of those rates

(06:29):
and during transition, duringthat immediate transition that a
lot of military service membersstruggle with when they
initially get out, but alsothinking about how those have a
lot of propagating effects forwhat the VA faces.
A lot of these, you know, otherhealth organizations and
nonprofits also face with theveterans that they're serving as
well.

(06:50):
So I think, in just looking atthat and also just gathering the
experiences of what a lot of, Iwould say I went through, a lot
of what you know my friends aregetting out right now go
through and just being able toaccess mental health care, some
of the struggles they face,especially with that military to
civilian, you know, identitytransition and like it's a huge

(07:13):
thing that we don't talk aboutand how difficult that
transition is.
But also the likeinaccessibility a lot of the
times towards mental health carepoints.
Like inaccessibility a lot ofthe times towards mental health
care points and especially since, for the first time when they
transition out, you know you'rekind of left to your own devices
.
You're so used to being in aninstitution that tells you what

(07:34):
to do, where to go, like who tosee and everything, and then you
get out.
It's this great big opportunity, it's this great big world, but
you don't really have theresources to understand how to
navigate it and to be able todeal with the things that
haven't been dealt with a lot ofthe time.
So I think that kind of was likethe pushing point for me is

(07:55):
just kind of watching that kindof journey throughout and just
looking at how that wasaffecting the people around me
and the and also the clientsthat I served in um, within the
social workspace, but alsowithin the clinical research
space too.
Um, of a lot of folks.
I see a lot of older veteransin my um, clinical research and

(08:15):
stuff, and it's a lot of thethings we're seeing with like
even neurodegenerative disorders, um, suicidality, like later in
life.
It's because of stuff that theyweren't able to deal with,
because they didn't have accessto the resources that they
needed.

I think to add on to that one of and I can only
speak from personal experiencewhen I got out, I was just too
busy to address anything.
Like I got out and I had afamily and all of a sudden you
have to rent a house, you'removing, you have to rent a house

(08:51):
, you have to put first, likefinances became my focus,
getting my family settled andworking together as a family
unit for school andtransportation.
And then you get, you know,know, you have the job and
you're working and you can't youget a new job.
So I'm I'm like I'm not gonnaaddress any issues right now,

(09:13):
I'll screw up my job, likethere's a lot of outside factors
other than accessibility.
And then there is the okay, Ihave time and I'm going.
Okay, I'll go to the VA becauseI never knew and my listeners
have heard me say this a hundredtimes I never knew that
nonprofits or anything like thisexisted for veterans.
It was just the VA was all Iknew about and my first

(09:37):
interaction with them was notgood.
It was handed me paperwork andit was fill it out and come back
and, as we know, as veterans,the last thing we want to do is
fill out a ton of paperwork andthen wait.
So that added to the like, notaddressing my issues.
And plus, you're living in it.
I'm living in this PTSD brainthat I don't know.

(09:59):
I'm in because I've beenfunctioning in it and it takes a
lot of self-awareness toeventually say hey or prompting.

Yeah, and I think that totally like that
totally applies in everyscenario, right?
Where you know, we know,especially like from the
research on veterans whotransition, there's like this
really great spectrum of youknow how they kind of deal with
that initial point.
And so because sometimes it'slike veterans are extremely

(10:31):
motivated when they get out andthey don't struggle with their
transition, then they reallyflourish in having new
challenges and it's really thatgrowth mindset and stuff and
being able to kind of take on anew life be, you know, and adapt
to their circumstances.
That also goes in resiliencyand strengths-based perspective.
But then there's also thisother side of, like you know, we

(10:53):
don't think about theenvironmental factors of, like
you know, basic safety needshave to be met first and a lot
of the times, even in looking attransition, that's why we look
at, you know, folks thatimmediately become homeless when
they transition out and whythat's such a huge issue for
mental health for that reason.
But it's also, like you know,you don't have the time to

(11:16):
really be able to deal with itbecause you have to deal with
just normal life stuff thatrealistically you haven't had to
deal with as benefit of beingin the military for so long,
because most of that stuff wastaken care of for you, um, for
the most part and you don'treally have to think about it.
And now you have all of thesekind of like systemic, um, all

(11:37):
of these systemic kind of youknow challenges that you have to
work through so there is atleast some motivation resolved.
But then you know there'salways that optimal tipping
point, right where there's likean optimal amount of stress that
a person can take on, whereit's like you know motivation.
But then there's that tippingpoint where it becomes
debilitating and it's anadditional stressor that
actually propagates into, youknow, mental health and stuff.

(12:02):
So I think it's alwaysinteresting to see who does well
in that perspective and thenyou know at what point you know
things kind of catch up and likesometimes there are a lot.
You know, I'm working as aformer transition coordinator
and so with the active duty side, not a lot of folks know

(12:22):
anything outside of the VA andso because it's the thing that
it is the biggest institutionfor you know healthcare, and so
when veterans transition but youknow, not all VA health systems
within different states arecreated equal.
I have worked with really greatVA centers in my career and I've
also worked with really poorones, and so that's where, like,

(12:44):
nonprofits come in poor onesand stuff, and that's where,
like, nonprofits come in andfill the space, but it's almost
like sometimes there's such anoverabundance of them that it's
like hard to find the one thatreally fits for you and stuff,
because there's, like you know,it's crazy, like on transition
there's like 50,000 plustransition resources and
organizations, and you're justsitting there like I'm just
trying to like get out, get myDD 214 and like get my life set

(13:08):
up, like how do I have time toeven sift through like even like
a fraction of that and stuff?
So, because there are a lot ofgreat organizations out there,
but you know their veterans areconnecting with those
organizations and organizationsare connecting with those
veterans because it's justgetting lost.
You know, I think in the um, thenormalcy of that transition,

(13:30):
but also it's just, um, I don'tthink we found a really good way
to be able to match veterans tothose spaces, cause we often
leave it up to as an individualresponsibility of like well, you
chose to get out, so thereforeyou must go find and go forth
and like find all theseresources, instead of being

(13:50):
deliberate about that during thetransition, about like hey,
what resources are you going toneed and stuff and making a
deliberate effort to make thatplan for that veteran and stuff.
And I think in looking at itfrom that transition coordinator
perspective and stuff, that'swhat we tried to do a lot of the
times but you know a lot of wewere also under resource, like I

(14:12):
was taking care of 24,000soldiers and stuff as a
transition coordinator.
Like that's super unrealisticto be able to do that on an
individual level on anindividual level.
So then it becomes an individuallike that individual's
responsibility to do it whenthey probably just don't know
where to look in the first place.
So it just creates a lot ofgaps in care for after they

(14:34):
transition and something youknow that can.
Obviously those gaps can leavea lot of room for, you know,
increased, I think, burden,loneliness and just being able
to like figure out who not onlywho they are after transition,
but also being like you know howdo I navigate, even in this new
space and stuff and those canreally increase a lot of those

(14:56):
risk factors and externalstressors for suicidality, which
is why we tend to see thatuptick.

I think you touched on a couple of things.
So one is finding the okay, sayyou do find the nonprofit,
right, I was told.
So I'm a recovering alcoholicand I was told early on don't
judge AA by the first meetingyou go to Find your meeting.

(15:24):
There's plenty of meetings.
Some are hardcore, some areeasy, some are more, you know,
empathetic, Some are juststraightforward.
Find the one that fits you.
And I say that about thesenonprofits with veterans.
Don't go to a nonprofit andyou're like, well, they didn't
do shit for me, there's anotherone, there's another one out

(15:45):
there that you will find, thatyou will settle into and that'll
be your nonprofit for veteransthat helps you do what you have
to do and hopefully gets youmoving forward and helps you
deal with whatever you'redealing with.
Also, let me ask you this youthis do you think time in the

(16:11):
military makes a difference tosomebody transitioning?
Somebody transitioning withmaybe a mental health issue,
like, say, ptsd?
And I use the example of me Iwas in for 10 years, so I was.
It's kind of like beinginstitutionalized for 10 years,
right, I've heard prisoners saythat they become
institutionalized.
That's why prisoners or inmateshave a hard time adjusting when

(16:32):
they get out because they wereinstitutionalized being in the
Air Force for 10 years, securitypolice, there's things that go
with that, everyday things.
Or four years.
Four years breezes by sometimes.
You know you do that, so do youthink that that has an effect
on maybe the veteran getting out?

(16:54):
The one that's been in longerhas a hotter adjustment than the
one that's been in four years,and that goes for.
You know, of course, what we'retalking about, like, say,
mental health.

Yeah, I think that's always a hard
question because it also like ona systematic level, like we
know that you know, the more anindividual kind of gets familiar
with an institution, the morekind of social norming and
social scripting that happenswith it.
But it also depends on thoseindividual characteristics.
You know what they actuallyexperienced during their career

(17:27):
is going to really, you know,increase or decrease the you
know the likelihood of beingexposed or even being onset to a
mental health disorder.
But it's also going to dependon, like what protective factors
that that person has.
Do they have good familyrelationships, right, that can
be a really strong protectivefactor and so during their time

(17:50):
in, and also it's going to, likeI said, it also might depend on
like that person's likeresiliency level, their ability
to like bounce back fromhardship.
So I think those types ofquestions it's always really,
you know, it's always I hatesaying you know the give the
stupid army answer of like it'sMedTC dependent.

(18:11):
I think it's such a complicatedrelationship because individuals
play off the systems, but alsosystems sometimes influence the
way that individuals deal withcertain issues, deal with
certain issues.
So being able to also liketaking that into account like I
haven't seen any research that'sbeen published.
That's like you know, time inservice is like a great

(18:33):
predictor of whether they comeout with mental health issues.
Because it is such acomplicated relationship.
I think what more often happensis whether there's unresolved
mental health issues that theyincurred during their time in
service that were never dealtwith.
That really kind of morepredicts the severity and the
likelihood that they're going todeal with issues like anxiety,

(18:56):
depression, ptsd, suicidality,when they do transition out,
because those things are goingto make it that much harder for
folks to be able to adapt to anew system.
Right, because you have tothink about, you know what those
types of disorders do to aperson's you know autonomic
system, their physiology, theirpsychophysiology, neurobiology,

(19:19):
you know even like theircognitive patterns and stuff.
Like when all of those thingsare feeding in, it's going to
make the challenge of thatalready challenging kind of
transition out that much harder,right?
So I would say you know, like Ihate giving the answer of like
it's so dependent on theindividual, but it really is and

(19:39):
it's going to be dependent onthe risk factors that they have,
and then also the strength ofthose protective factors, and
then being, like you know andthose are constantly in flux,
right there's always going to betimes in your life where your
risk factors might outweigh someof the protective factors, and
what those protective factorscan do and you know what we try
to do, you know, in social workand even throughout the mental

(20:01):
health field is really beinglike what does the individual
have that we can do to build uptheir protective factors,
whether that be buildingcommunity that's what nonprofits
are really great for, right,and I think you bring up such a
good point, scott, of, like youknow, not every nonprofit is not
a one size fits all.
Right, where it's like you hopethat when you go in and connect

(20:21):
with these organizations andstuff that it's like you know,
love at first sight it's thefirst meeting and it works out
and sometimes it does, but a lotof it, much, much to life is
like it's trial and error,you're going to find it's going
to take a few tries for you tobe able to find that
organization that you connectwith, that greater community

(20:41):
identity, which is what a lot ofveterans kind of you know cite,
especially as they're going out.
And you know, in talking tofolks that have higher risk for
suicidality, it's that loss ofcommunity that really gets to
them when they do transition andstuff and when they do go back
out to the civilian world andstuff, it's like it's that
complete loss of that socialidentity is a huge risk factor.

(21:06):
Um, so that's why, you know,that's why I wish we would
encourage a lot more being like,hey, let's find ways to build
up that protective factor, likeyou're not theoretically losing
this community and stuff you'relosing in a certain aspect.
But what are we do?
What can we do to kind of buildthat back up on the civilian
side to?
You know, it's so, like I said,it's so complex and the and

(21:30):
what we can do in that space isreally just kind of look at
those things and look at what issalient for the individual in
order to best mitigate thoserisk factors, but also making
sure that we don't just look atthe risk factors too, because I
think on a lot of aspects, themilitary does a really good job

(21:50):
of you know, acknowledging like,hey, there are significant
factors, let's reduce them.
But then we don't think aboutthe positive side of things,
about what are we doing to buildup those protective factors for
people when they do get out,Cause we're so focused on
mitigating this.
It's not to say risk factorsdon't play into protective
factors for people when they doget out, because we're so
focused on mitigating this, it'snot to say, risk factors don't
play into protective factors andvice versa.

(22:11):
I think we tend to focus so muchon that negative affectivity
perspective that we're notreally focused on how are we
building up those folks andthose veterans for when they get
out, so that way they can adaptsuccessfully?

Yeah, I think a, a simple implementation would
probably be helpful in thetransition from military to
civilian world and it would bedetermined on, I guess, where
you're getting out or whereyou're going to.
But I have this saying I'm likefind your nonprofit.
I don't know why that like thatshould be like a statewide

(22:47):
advertisement that the statepays for Find your nonprofit.
And if I was a veteran and Iwas getting out which I did if
they had had something that sayshey, you know, this is a whole
world that's available to you.
Here's a list of all thenonprofits where you're going to
be at, here's a list of all thenonprofits in the country.
I know that's a big broad thing,but I got out in Albuquerque

(23:11):
and I went to Boston, right.
So if I had known and then Iend up in South Florida if I had
had that like find yournonprofit and this is what they
do for veterans at least I wouldhave had the resources instead
of not knowing anything about it, not knowing it existed until I
had gone to see my VApsychologist and she recommended

(23:33):
the herd foundation, equinetherapy, and I was like, what,
like?
And this is open to my wholeworld.
That world should have beenopen 20 years ago.
You know what I mean.
And I think that that maybe withthe, the, the, the suicide
aspect of this, maybe that's agood way to maybe start at least

(23:54):
chipping at the stone.
I have an option and I didn'tknow I had other than the VA.

Yeah, I think that's such a good point
that you bring up and I think itis being worked on in some
aspects, but I also know it'syou know the scale of the
problems because so many folksare, when they do get out right,
they're not usually stayingwithin the local area and stuff.

(24:22):
They're relocating to differentplaces which can make finding,
like you said, those resourcesreally difficult because, like,
if you're lucky that veteranslike really knowledgeable about
the area, they might bereturning to their hometown or
their home state and stuff andthey know where to find it and
so.
But you also have to think aboutthe fact that for the most part

(24:42):
veterans and like servicemembers, you know, when they
were in they didn't really haveto find a lot of resources
because they were all co locatedon the base.
Like you didn't have to leavethe base, find a lot of
resources because they were allco-located on the base.
Like you didn't have to leavethe base for a lot of things.
Maybe, you wanted to and stuff,but for the most part everything
you needed was right there.
So it makes that like I said.
That's one of the things thatmakes transition really hard is

(25:04):
because there is so muchautonomy placed on the
individual and responsibilityplaced on the individual to find
it, which why, like I wish um,I know some of the transition
coordinators really do try topush those non-profits and stuff
and having a running list, butonce again, how that gets
updated right because there'snon-profits being added like

(25:24):
every day every day and stuffand to what level of quality as
well, is always a question rightlike whether you know um like.
I want to believe mostnonprofits have a good mission
and stuff, but some of them, youknow, might not actually be as
effective as we think and stuffand so and.
But then also taking intoaccount, like, what does that

(25:45):
individual service memberconnect with?
Right, Like everybody hasdifferent interests, like
getting out, like my nonprofitwas Veterans Yoga Project.
I was like I want to go backout, do yoga teaching, like do
my mindfulness based, like, usemy mindfulness based
certification and be able tohelp other veterans.
That's how I found my nonprofitwas through yoga teaching and

(26:08):
stuff.
Not going to be the same foreverybody else, Right?

Let's get the name of your nonprofit.
This is what this podcast isall about.

Yeah, veterans Yoga Project amazing,
amazing foundation.
It's nationwide, but it's alsobased state to state, so you
have a veteran yoga coordinatorper each of the states.
Veteran yoga coordinator pereach of the states, and usually
there are specific sites thatveterans can go to and access

(26:38):
free yoga classes, and so theydon't have to pay.
It's completely free.
If you want to check it out,just Google Veterans Yoga
Project.
It is excellent.
We also have an online class.
It is excellent.

(27:00):
We also have an online class.
So if, like there's not, thereare classes within your local
area you can completely log onfor free and take free online
classes.
It also has a library.
We also offer for veterans whoare interested in becoming yoga
teachers.
We offer yoga teacher trainingat the 200 hour at a much
reduced rate.
Yoga teacher training at the200 hour at a much reduced rate.
Typically, um, yoga yogacertification is a lot more
expensive than people think.
It's about four grand thatyou're forking out for it.
Um, that they do at a reducedrate.

(27:20):
We offer scholarships as well.
It's a fantastic program.

I'm happy.

I could do a little plug for.

I think wait a minute.
I'm having a podcastpremonition plug, for I think,
wait a minute, I I'm having a apodcast premonition I think I
see another episode with lindsey.
I think I see lindsey coming onfor her non-profit.

I think, yes , that's going to happen I could
really talk about veterans yogaproject.

Well, that's, we'll seal the deal don't be
surprised if it's in the nextmonth or so.
Okay sounds, sounds good, we'lldefinitely that's and boom,
you'll go on my, my website,which is a resource page.
It has it'll have your podcast,you know, attached to it and
the whole thing.
Yeah, that's great.
So see we, just we have anotherepisode coming up, lindsay.

So yeah, absolutely One day you'll get
sick of me, Scott.

No, no, no, no, you're fantastic.
So let's get into Florida Leads.
Where did Florida Leads start?
What's in?
What is the whole idea of it?

So Florida Leads was a so it's a SAMHSA
grant, so it's a federallyfunded grant for mental health.
So it really started out ofboth of our investigators, so Dr
Griesowitz, who's over at Iknow where is Kim, so Kim, who's
over at UCF, and then Dr Carver, who's down at USF, really

(28:44):
trying to address through what'scalled the zero suicide
framework.
So it's this idea that you know, on a large scale, right, our
ultimate goal is to drive downto zero suicide and stuff, and
so that's kind of the main aim.
But we accomplish that througha bunch of kind of multi tiered

(29:06):
and multi factored kind ofapproaches or strategies,
because we understand thatthere's, you know, a lot of
factors that play intosuicidality, you know, at the
individual level, at the publichealth level, at the community
level, so kind of understandinghow to address that throughout

(29:26):
all of kind of the spectrum ofsuicidality.
But we really focus on, youknow, what are ways that we can
tangibly get after those efforts.
So, scott, you mentioned, youknow, being a part of, like one
of the focus groups.
We use those focus groups toreally, you know, tailor like

(29:47):
social awareness campaigns aboutsuicidality within different,
you know, populations that tendto experience, you know, suicide
at a much higher rate than thecivilian populations.
Obviously, veterans is a bigone because we know that they
have about a 50% greater chanceof of attempting or dying by

(30:09):
suicide In comparison to thecivilian population.
They're more at risk.
Same thing with our LGBTQ pluscommunities, our minoritized
communities, minoritycommunities, and then, you know,
also, understanding theintersectionalities of a lot of
those right and stuff and howthat subgroup also plays into it

(30:32):
.
Um, a lot of the times when we,you know, when we look at um
suicide awareness campaigns, alot of it tends to be blanketed.
Yeah, right, where it's like.
You know, veterans call 988 andstuff, and while I love the 988
number and stuff, it's not theonly resource that's out there
and stuff.
So, like, being able to getintegrated into the community of

(30:53):
, like you guys are on theground, right, you guys know a
lot of more.
I think about like, hey, whatkind of speaks to um, you know
your social identities, right,and the things that are
successful about it.
Um, and so cause, you know, like, I think it's just hard for
people that don't have thatexperience, they haven't been

(31:14):
through those experiences, toreally develop any sort of
meaningful campaign that's goingto get you to the resources
that you need, but also findingprevalent resources as well that
folks can connect with.
But the other part of the aimsthat we also do is a lot of
clinician and community training.
So we focus on like a QPR likemodel, so really for folks, on a

(31:41):
kind of what the CDC will calllike a secondary intervention
level of being able to identifyif somebody is at risk for
attempting suicide and stuff andbeing able to get them to
points of care where they canactually receive evidence-based,
like mental health care.
At that point that's reallyimportant on a community level,
right, because it's most likelythat a clinician or like a

(32:05):
licensed clinical social worker,therapist and stuff is not
going to be the first point ofcontact and stuff, right, like
it's usually going to be a peer.
That's why peer-to-peer modelsreally work, um, but we also
don't expect peers to be able totake on the like, the like, the
work of being able to give thatperson, that individual, the,

(32:28):
um, the mental health care thatthey need in order to reduce,
like, suicide symptoms, right,what's really important for that
individual is to get thatperson to that point, which is
why that QPR model is kind ofwrapped up into some of our aims
as well.
But then we also focus onclinician training, right,
because some folks come throughthe door and we're, you know, as

(32:50):
a healthcare system, it'stypically like, hey, we're
usually really swamped andthings get overlooked.
So how do we train cliniciansto be able to screen for
suicidality better, in anevidence-based way?
So that way we capture folksearly and ahead of time, before
the attempt is made, and gettingthem to a point of care once

(33:13):
again and so, but also reducingthe number of folks that are
like Baker acted right, wherethey're involuntarily
institutionalized, right, wewant those folks to go willingly
, because we know that actuallyimproves outcomes in terms of
symptom reduction.
So being able to do that sideof the clinician training, but

(33:34):
then also training folks who arevery deliberately in the
suicide space being like.
How do you do suicide safetyplanning?
How do you set that up?
How do you know does screampositive for being at risk for a

(33:55):
suicide attempt as well?
So you see, we have a lot ofaims going on, like it's a
really it's all relevant.
They're all relevant, but it'sall relevant and it all fits
together and thinking about itfrom a systems level, which is
what you know is the way that weneed to be thinking about
suicide.
And so, because it's like youknow, we really have to think

(34:18):
about it from top down and thenalso bottom up.
Right, you know, do do thosethings separately and never
comes together in a reallycohesive manner to where we see
any sort of like likesignificant change, right, like

(34:39):
it has to be addressed at alllevels.
I'm thinking about how that allkind of combines together to
reduce suicidality amongstindividuals, populations and
communities.

So I think you touched on something that I can
relate to, and it's the peer,the peer to peer.
Peer is usually the firstperson I would think.
Now correct me if I'm wrongmost likely is the first person
that gets called a friend,somebody they know, somebody
they learn to trust or theythink can help them, and that in

(35:14):
itself it's the concept is good, it's there, it's great, call
your friend, but the friendnever expects it.
They never, expect it.
That phone call came to me on at10 30 on a wednesday night,
literally, and that's the lastthing you expect to hear.
A lot of people aren't readyfor that and I think that is.

(35:39):
I don't know how that getsaddressed or how it plays into
this whole.
Let's knock that number down,you know.
Let's get ready, let's get itto zero If they call a peer who
doesn't know how to handle that.
Well, you were my lifeline, youknow.
And what do I do now?

(36:01):
Like it's the, you know, that'skind of the play that that
happens at that point.
And how do you think, how, howdo you think that played?
Like, how does that play intoit?

I think it plays into it in a huge way.
It is like you talked aboutScott.
It's like you are that person'slifeline and stuff, Like you
are the person that, at somelevel, right, that person is.
You know, disclosing, you knowone of the most, probably
difficult it is the mostdifficult experience, right,

(36:35):
Like being able to admit.
That takes a lot of oneself-awareness, but also, you
know, a lot of courage and thenalso a lot of trust in that
individual, right.
So if we don't handle thatsituation right and we don't
train those people right, it hasextremely dire consequences,
right, because the hope is like,hey, you know for that person,

(36:58):
you know they might reach out toanother individual.
But especially when you'retalking about folks who are
thinking about suicide or mightbe attempting, that decision is
made very quickly, like thedecision to make an attempt
happens in a very short amountof time, and I cannot stress
that enough to people that liketime and being able to like

(37:19):
intervene is a very sensitivematter.
And so, which is why that thatpeer, that peer training, that
QPR training is really importantand stuff, because that might
be the only call that's maderight um, yeah, and so, and that
it's a scary thought and, likeyou know, thinking about this
from somebody who doesn't dealwith it on a day-to-day basis,

(37:40):
handling that call is extremelyscary it is.

My head was racing .
My mind went from from zero toa hundred in literally five
seconds, when they boom.
This is the first thing theysaid to me and I like to think
that I'm.
You know, I was.
I was a cop for 32 years.
I like to thank your hand, butyou're never ready for that.

It's, it's really, it's a completely
different type of pressure,because what's going, that the
mental calculations going on inyour head, is, like you know, do
I have the resources to reallybe able to help this person?
And that's where, like that,qpr training is is really
important.

QPR means QPR.

I'm sorry that is question persuade, refer
, but it's that initial, youknow, it's kind of like the
baseline training for being ableto to get folks to a point of
care, but also trying toidentify whether that person is
in the realms of making anattempt or they're thinking
about suicide, whether they havea plan or like a methodology to

(38:43):
be able to carry out theattempts and so then being able
to refer them to the correctresources.
And I do want to stress this,like one QPR training, um, or
like one suicidality training islike not going to make you an
expert, right, and that's notthe point, right.
Yeah, like, even then, like forsomebody that deals with it,

(39:03):
like I'm on crisis calls, I doscreenings, I do like a lot of
this work and it still scaresthe living shit out of me every
single day and stuff Like Idon't know if there's ever a
level of comfort with havingthese types of conversations,
but I think what we can do isequip people with the skills and

(39:25):
the resources to know that theycan handle that situation Right
, just like you know it reallyit's, you know, a therapeutic
means, right where we'reteaching you like, hey, just
actively listen, like listen forthese things, be able to
empathize with the individualright and being able to be able

(39:46):
to like find a thread of hope inthere, do strengths-based
perspectives with them and givethem a reason to go and have you
escort them to like a resourceand so where they can get the
help that they need, becausereally, what you're doing is
buying time.
You're buying time for thatperson to get to like a place

(40:07):
where they can get the help thatthey need and get past that
window where they're going tothink about making the attempt
and stuff, because once again,that time window is so short but
it's so crucial.
And so getting that notnecessarily right, but having
the resources to be able to getthat person to the point and
having the skills to be able todo it, I think is one of the

(40:28):
most important things on thepeer-to-peer and there's a lot
of nonprofits that do it, Ithink is one of the most
important things on the peer topeer and there's a lot of
nonprofits that do it.
Firewatch is a great one thattrains community members to be
able to do that, like our, ourgrant as well.
We partnered with them so gotto give them a shout Um and so,
but there's a lot of other greatorganizations that do it and
I'm a really big advocate forlike I think everybody should go

(40:49):
through it because you don'tknow who's going to be calling
at 1030 at night with that calland stuff or like or whatever
other time.
because you know we hope thatthrough that training also
people will start to pick up onthose things a little bit more.
They're going to listen for alot of those suicide risk
factors and indicators andhoping that they get people

(41:12):
through the door before thatattempt is made or those
ideations get worse, right wherethey morph more into attempt or
there's non serious suicidalinjury and stuff.
So like the more that we cankind of do that on a community
level.
I think it is the case of likehey, that's really a big, I
would say the biggest likesecondary intervention measure,

(41:35):
especially as we're thinkingabout it on a on like the public
health scale.
Like that's really one of thebig, you know big like secondary
interventions that we can do,because that's really what it's
about, because you know me as asocial worker, I won't know
until somebody gets to my door,but I have to get that person

(41:58):
has to get to my door, like soI'm a big fan of firewatch
because it worked in my case.

I'm a big fan of what you guys do because I know
it works.
So let me ask you this QPRright?
You mentioned it a couple times.
Everybody in America, prettymuch everybody in America, knows
about CPR.
I don't know how that promotionstarted.
I don't know how they got thisthing to a nationwide level

(42:30):
where it's almost part of our.
You know, our, our growing upprocess or our.
You know, when you're an adult,you, whatever job you're doing,
you learn cpr.
We got to take cpr course.
Today, everybody's taking thecpi and it's like, uh, but it's
effective.
Why or I don't know how tophrase this question but why

(42:54):
can't QPR be in the same levelas CPR?
Because it's something thatthey can do and coincide them
Like, okay, cpr, qpr trainingtoday, you know, and make it a
thing.
Because I'm sure there's peoplelistening right now that are
like never heard of QPR, butit's right there on the level of

(43:16):
CPR.
It should be on the same levelas CPR.

Oh, I 100% agree.

The branding and everything.

It's got the letters, it flows, it's there,
you can pull out your QPRqualified card, so sometimes I
think that would be a greatmethod and got to give props to
the American Heart Associationqualify.
So sometimes I think that wouldbe a great method, you know,
and you know got to give propsto the American Heart
Association because they didsuch great, a great job for
being like, hey, this is a levelof, like life-saving care.
But what is QPR?

(43:45):
The exact same thing, just onthe mental health side.
But I think you know there are.
You know, as I was growing upthrough a lot of these
institutions and stuff, qpr hasstarted becoming.
You know there are.
You know, as I was growing upthrough a lot of these
institutions and stuff, qprstarted becoming, you know,
started becoming a lot more of arecommended training.
So initially it didn't exist atall and this was back in, like

(44:08):
you know, when I went through alot of my mental health like
training, back in like 20, 2013to 2017, like none of these
courses were offered.
And now we're starting to see apickup a little bit where it's
like at least organizations areoffering it.
But you're right, there's notthat mandatory kind of like.
Hey, you know, if you're in ahealthcare setting, like you
have to take this training andstuff and so not to say some

(44:32):
institutions don some Institute,uh, some institutions don't do
it because some of them do um,the really good ones do is what
I'll say, but the really greatones kind of look at it as, like
this is, you know, basicallythe same thing as CPR, right,
like, this is the last kind ofthe last line um, before you
know somebody, somebody eitherlike, dies, like, really like,

(44:52):
and stuff like that is the lastkind of lifeline um, and I
really I think it's going tocome to um, I think institutions
um doing and making sure thatit's something that's addressed,
and I and I do think that goesinto the stigma of like, you
know, when somebody drops downand has a heart attack, right,
right, it's something that'stangible, we can see it versus

(45:16):
mental health is always thisreally big gray area and for
some reason we don't like havingopen conversations about it
because we're like well, what ifwe get it wrong?
And it's like, well, so what ifyou get it wrong?
It's better to ask the questionand be wrong about it.
I was like I will take that100% of the time I tried.

(45:36):
In other words, I tried, youknow being like, and I was
prepared and stuff like and wedon't think about it in that way
, because I think it is thatstigma of like you know what, if
we do get it wrong and we asksomebody about suicide, and it
comes into like that mythologyof like, oh, we, if we ask
people about whether they're,you know, having suicidal

(45:59):
ideations, or like they're goingto attempt suicide and stuff
that increases their risk, andwe put the idea into their heads
and it's like maybe that'sreally antiquated.
I don't think I hope nobodythinks like that anymore.
I think something in the backof our head, um, really kind of
sets off and we're like, we'relike, oh, we can't ask about
that and stuff, and it's like,but we absolutely should,

(46:20):
because we're at a time andplace in public health where
people are lonelier than ever,especially coming out of post
COVID, and so then we know thatpeople, there's a greater
awareness of mental health, andso now is the time that we
really should be pushing a lotof these, like these trainings,
at least at QPR, and so to belike, hey, let's you know, and

(46:44):
thinking about it, even if it'snot like you know the last, even
though it is the last lifeline,being like these are just good
skills to have like these aregreat ways for you to like build
good active listening skills,to be able to like screen for
these things and to be able tosupport folks like on a level,
like those are all great thingsto have, like in any field and

(47:06):
stuff and like building thoseskills are really important.
But it's also like thinkingabout the end state, right when
it's like you know this is.
This is the point in which wecan, on a systemic level, have a
good you know, a good impact onwho gets through our door and
stuff Like even if they get itwrong, right Like and stuff like

(47:29):
not everybody gets CPR right.
Yeah, not everybody gets CPRRight Exactly.

And stuff, and you know what they tell you, and
see, I just was.

It's so funny, I just went through my
cpr train because it wasrequired yeah, because I work in
a medical health field whyisn't qpr required?
There too is there acertifiable course for qpr.

Is it like, yeah, you can get a certificate?

yeah, you can get a certificate and
everything.
I think you bring up a goodpoint.
Maybe we just need to giveeverybody those like fancy cards
, that's like I'm qpr, likeexactly that's part of the
marketing.

It's part of the mindset.
It's kind of like I havesomething, as you said, tangible
I can hold it.
Look at, I am qpr sort of, andI think I am a bottom I mean
bottom ground, maybe even aninch below the dirt guy up start
at the extreme, at the lowest,and work up top down.
I was never a big believer inthat in the military or when I

(48:25):
was in customs.
Top down is not always connectedBottom up you're connected to
what's going on, connected towhat's going on, and I think if
municipalities start withmunicipalities and promote QPR
in at that level, because thepolice, the fire, the you know,
the, whoever, teachers, uh,anything in the municipality of,

(48:46):
say, boca Raton, you know, makeit a course that they all have
to take, and then it starts togrow, I, I don't know, I, I
don't, I don't, it's.

I just learned about this day and now
my mind is like racing, likethis needs to be a thing it
should be a thing and I think itlike it really has to go both
ways right where there has to beenough feedback from the bottom
level to really push thisagenda and stuff, but to also
make it where institutions arelike hey, this is much like CPR,

(49:17):
like this is a mandatorytraining for you to be in the
medical health field.
Like, regardless of what roleyou play and stuff like whether
you're a nurse, a social workerand stuff.
I think there's oftentimes arelegation to like lead the
mental health stuff for themental health practitioners and
stuff and like, but then not tosay clinicians and nurses don't

(49:38):
do it, because they absolutelydo, but then, like you know all
these other folks that work inlike labs and different things,
like you just don't know who'sgoing to walk across your door
and need that help and stuff.
So being able to have theskills to do it is so important.
Or even as just a communitymember, right, like it, like not
even trying to think about it,you brought up like first
responders, police, itdefinitely need it because they

(50:01):
are also at higher risk, um, forsuicidality um and stuff
amongst populations and stuff,but it really does amongst each
other, yeah, amongst others yeah, absolutely, but there's just a
need for it at the communitylevel and for institutions to
kind of be like hey, this isimportant, like acknowledging
that this is something that isan issue, a systemic issue that

(50:25):
needs to be addressed, is likereally the first thing yeah, and
and being like, hey, this issomething that we can do to
mitigate it, because I don'tthink anybody would go around
being like suicide isn't aproblem, and so like nobody's
taking that, nobody's takingthat mentality.

Lightly yeah, and stuff.

But it's also like acknowledging the
problem is the first step, butit shouldn't be the only step.
What are we doing as systems,as institutions, as
organizations, as communities,to really be able to get after,
you know, reducing that rate?
And I think this is like one ofthe first key steps that can be

(51:05):
done and stuff that's at leastwidely accessible.
And that's really what we'retrying to do at Florida Leads is

(51:27):
like thinking about it fromthat multi-tiered perspective of
being like what do we offer tothe community that we know gets
are, you know, have madeattempts for suicide and stuff
and offering them, you know,training in evidence based
methodologies like dialecticalbehavior therapy, cognitive
behavior therapy for suicidalityand stuff, and being able to
promote those on a wide scale.

(51:49):
And, once again, thinking aboutit from the bottom up approach
and how we kind of tier it andso it should be kind of like a
pyramid, and we shouldn't beinversing it.

Absolutely so.
What's the future for Floridaleads?
What's the what's the?
Long term plan.

I think the long term plan is just really to
, you know, adapt these modelsand train as many folks in the
Florida community as we possiblycan and offer these trainings
Like.
We have amazing regionalcoordinators like um that are
putting on these trainings forthe community for free, um and
stuff.
So if you haven't signed up andyou're interested, please like

(52:29):
sign up for these trainings.
It's completely free as long asyou're located within the
Florida community, Um, and and.
So I think it's really toexpand our reach.
And so, because we would love toget more folks into these
trainings and get more peopletrained and seeing what the
impact is and how they're, alsoto understand how they're using
it, how often they're using itand being like, what impact is

(52:52):
that having on their patients,on the clients that they see, or
even, like you know, for folksout in the community being like,
hey, even just having theopenness to have those
conversations, now that we likebuilt those skills for them, now
that they've taken the QPR,being like, hey, you know a lot
of folks, you know, maybe not inFlorida leads, but just from my

(53:13):
personal experience, I've gonethrough a lot of these trains or
like or like you know somebodycame across my door and I
listened and I listened for,like some of those suicide you
know risk factors and stuffwouldn't have been able to
before and felt like I had theability and the skills to

(53:34):
actually be able to get thatperson to care and stuff, and
like that is the greatestsuccess story that we could
possibly have.
Right Is being like, how are weincreasing, you know, the
likelihood that person one makesit through the door?
But also, at that point, howare they making it through
systems of care to be able tonot have reattempts to suicide

(53:57):
right, and then, or like Godforbid, completion of like a
suicide death right?
So you know which is really theultimate goal?
And so it is.
I think we're also going tojust be refining a lot of the
aims that we're doing, um andgoing forward and you know, kind
of taking what we've learnedand being and being able to

(54:18):
curtail it, because the bestthing we can do is take what
we've actually researched and beable to make it better.
It should always be thiscontinuous improvement um and
stuff.
So if we hopefully get fundedfor the next round and stuff,
I'm hoping that we get to refinea lot of the trainings that
we've been doing to make itprevalent to the community,

(54:41):
taking that feedback that we'vegotten and being able to not
just spread the awareness butalso spread and be able to
increase the competency on ahuge scale from communities to
you know, clinicians to you know, hospital institutions, medical
institutions, and just beingable, I think, to increase those

(55:01):
competencies will have aprofound effect and stuff.
And it's I, you know, I think,really, when it comes to
research and just any sort ofproject, right Like world's your
oyster, like I think we'regoing to, as we're analyzing a
lot of our data, we're going tofigure out a lot of things that
weren't successful that we triedto do, but we're also going to

(55:23):
find out the things that reallywere impactful and so then being
able to once again cancontribute to greater scientific
knowledge of being like hey, ona community level.
These are the things that worksLike, these are the ways to
build these types of skills andcompetencies and what impact
that they had.
And same thing for all of ourother other trainings that we've
offered.
But being like these are, Ithink, also really important.

(55:46):
And so then I think thescientific community sometimes
puts a lot of stock in likestatistical significance and is
effective, without alsodiscussing hey, here are the
things that weren't effectiveand stuff.
That's where a lot of thosemyths kind of hang out and why a
lot of those things carry over.
I'm also equally as interestedto find out like, hey, what are

(56:08):
the things that we're promoting,like that you know might be not
effective and stuff that way wecan, we can be like, hey, is
this something we need toreassess?
Is there a reason for this?
Or is this now, like on such alarge scale where, like this
isn't a successful strategy andbeing able to adapt that as well
?
Um, like, I think the focusgroup.

The focus group was good.
I enjoyed it because you get tobe real Like I get to say I
don't like that, I don't see,you know, and I think that was
important to get it from me andthe other person that was in the
focus group's perspective, andthat's very important.

I think so too.

What's the website if people want to reach out and
see what they can do or whatthey can learn?

Yeah, so for the Florida Leads Project, if
you just Google like FloridaLeads and so I am totally not a
great assistant for being likenot knowing the URL from the top
of my head.

That's quite all right, that's quite all right.

That's quite all right,
floridaleadsprojectcom.
And so pretty simple.
But if you just Google FloridaLeads Project, if you don't want
to remember the HTTP, I'm withyou on that, trust me.
Yeah.

A good podcast host would have said you can
find them at, but see you in NewYork.

I'm madly typing being like wait, do I
have the right URL?

Florida Leads Project.
Just Google it and then you'llfind it.
It's L-E-A-D-S capital letters.

Yep indeed.

Yes, well, is there anything else you want to
talk about?
Uh, do you guys take donations?
Is there any way you know?

we are uh a research funded in some
organizations I always wantpeople to get money.

I always want my listeners to give money to
whoever I talk to so well if youare interested in making
donations and stuff.

I think there's a lot of great community
nonprofits that could use thedonations.
So, if you're interested,firewatch is one of our great
collaborators within thecommunity.
They do take donations, sincethey are nonprofits, so donate
to them because they're doingawesome partnership work with us
and within the Floridacommunity, so cannot shout that

(58:31):
enough.
And within the Floridacommunity, so cannot shout that
enough.
Um and so even just to localnonprofits that are around, um
you know what?

that's a good segue into my cheap plug.
I do this every episode.
I know a good nonprofit, theone man one Mike foundation,
that would like that would likedonations we work with veterans.

We're doing good work with them.
I, I it's.
They are doing the best workand I can fully say they were
awesome to work with.
They were more than graciousand you should max out your
donations.

It's so cheesy, but I gotta do it every episode.
My my board would would notforgive me if I did.
They're like you got thisplatform like it's yours.
You're the guy you do use it,plug it so every episode I slip
in a cheap plug for the one man,one mic foundation, dot dot org

(59:26):
.
If you want to go there anddonate, so not to, yeah, but
also what's what's yournon-profit?
Again, which I will be talkingto you in the next couple of
weeks to talk.

It is called veterans yoga projects, um and
so uh, you can once again alsogoogle it, but this one, I am a
good assistant in this way.
I remember this url.
Maybe it's because I waslooking at it right before I
hopped on for the interview.
And so veteransyogaprojectorg.
We also have an app as well, soif you just type in Veterans

(01:00:00):
Yoga Project into your Apple orGoogle Play, you can also
download it there and accessfree resources for like yoga,
yoga videos, live classes,meditation classes and different
events within your local areaand finding a local teacher as
well.
So do a little plug for themand stuff you can also donate to

(01:00:21):
Veterans Yoga Project.
If you feel like donating, youcan do.
One man, one mic first, andwhatever you have left over you
can do to Veterans.

Scott McLean (01:00:30):
Yoga, you're the best guest ever.
Lindsay, you're the best guestever.
So, all right.
Well, again you'll be hearingLindsay, I'm sure, within the
next three or four weeks.
I love when there's a crossoverthat goes into this.
So this is great, because Iwant to uplift your nonprofit.
I've talked to nonprofits allaround the country and that's my

(01:00:52):
goal is to uplift nonprofitsthat work with veterans.
And thank you for coming onthis episode.
I appreciate your time.
I know you're a busy person andwe will definitely be talking
again soon.
So hang on one second while Ido my outro and then I'll talk
to you a little bit after theepisode.

Lindsey Hildebrand (01:01:10):
Sounds good.

Scott McLean (01:01:11):
Well, we built another bridge today.
This one was a very good bridge.
They're all good bridges,they're all good.
Uh, if you uh like what youheard, please share it.
Uh, I think the the podcast isdoing well.
It's getting some legs peoplelistening, and I think it's
because of you, the listeners.
If you want to know more aboutthe florida leads project, you
can find them google floridaleads project we can and you'll

(01:01:35):
get all the information you need.
They're doing some great workas you.
As you heard this, this couldhave been a two hour show.
I'm, I'm, I'm not lying, thiscould have been a two hour
podcast and I'm sure somewheredown the line, uh, lindsay will
be back on to give us updates onhow Florida leads is going.
And and yeah, so also, listento the end of the podcast is a

(01:01:57):
good public service announcementfor nine eight, eight that we
talked about earlier, and two onone.
It's 30 seconds long.
If you listen to the end, it'svery informative.
It'll help, helps veterans,families of veterans, friends of
veterans and civilians alike.
It's just a good, informativepublic service announcement and,
as I always say, you will hearme next week with a new episode.

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Ep. 44 - Talking With Lindsey Hildebrand From The Florida LEADS Project (Launch Engage Activate Departments and Systems for Zero Suicide)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 44 - Talking With Lindsey Hildebrand From The Florida LEADS Project (Launch Engage Activate Departments and Systems for Zero Suicide)