Ep. 53 - Film Director/Documentarian Jake Rademacher Talks About His Latest Documentary: Brothers After War. The Follow Up to His 2009 Award Winning Documentary: Brothers At war - The VetsConnection Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott (00:01):
Welcome to the podcast.
I'm Scott McLean.
My guest today is JakeRademacher.
Jake is a documentary filmmaker.
Jake just released his secondof two documentaries based on
the story of his brothers whowent over to the Iraq war.
This one is called BrothersAfter War.

(00:23):
It's the follow-up to BrothersAt War, which, brothers At War,
won the Best Documentary FeatureAward at the 2008 GI Film
Festival.
So, jake, in this one, inBrothers After War, jake
reconnects with his brothers Joeand Isaac and elite soldiers
and Marines he embedded withduring the Iraq War and elite

(00:45):
soldiers and Marines he embeddedwith during the Iraq War.
Into cutting footage past andpresent.
He leads us on an insightful,humorous and moving journey as
we watch their path fromwarfighter to veteran.
Directed by Jake and executiveproduced by Gary Sinise and Phil
Gurin, it was released intheaters across America this
past February 28th, which was myfather's birthday, and is now

(01:08):
out on digital, or it's comingout on digital, jake.
I hope I got that all right,are we good?

Jake (01:14):
We're good it's actually out on digital today.
There you go, it's availableeverywhere.

Scott (01:17):
Perfect, perfect, and we're going to say this again at
the end of the podcast.
But what platforms can peoplewatch it on?

Jake (01:27):
We're really fortunate.
It's available on Amazon,iTunes, Google Play, YouTube,
Microsoft.
It's also on DVD, actually onthe shelves of Walmart and on
Amazon as well.

Scott (01:39):
Great.
I watched Brothers After Warand it is fascinating.
It is fascinating.
I highly recommend it, and I'mnot just saying it because Jake
is sitting in front of me.
I highly recommend it.
It's a fascinating journey, butyou want to watch Brothers At
War first.
This is the follow-up, so isthat available also out on

(02:04):
digital?

Jake (02:05):
Brothers At War was released in 2009, 2010.
It is.
You can find DVD for it.
They're going to re-release thefilm in the middle of August.
Great, and I would just saythat, you're okay, we cut this
film.
Gary Sinise and I talked aboutthis when making the film that
we wanted to make, brothers atWar, so you could see it by
itself.
Yeah, so anything you need toknow about from the first one,

(02:26):
we actually cut back to in theoriginal film.
So you have that context andthere's some stuff in this new
film that was filmed in iraq in05 and 06 and outside of iraq
that you never saw in theoriginal film, because I shot
about two or three hundred hoursof footage and only an hour and
you know, 47 the first film.
So that was sort of like a goldmine for us to go back, because

(02:47):
some things grew in prominencewith the passing of time.

Scott (02:52):
Yes, and it does do a great job at filling in the
blanks.
So I, though, am going to trackdown Brothers at War just
because now I want to see it,although this does fill in the
blanks, you're correct.
So, jake, you're thedocumentarian.
You tell other people's stories.
What's your story?
How did you get into all this,into the documentary world?

(03:15):
And you had instant contentwith your brothers, and I want
to know what your thoughtprocess was going into that.

Jake (03:26):
You know, um, storytelling has been a part of my life.
You know I really I wanted togo to West point and really bad
eyesight kept me out of it andthrough a series of kind of
trying to find myself, I foundstorytelling of all places in
Ireland and uh, there I was inChicago doing theater and nine
11 happened and I was so movedby that.

(03:47):
And at this point my youngerbrother was a west point grad
and a ranger, tabbed infantryofficer in the 82nd, so I knew
he was going to war.
But really the the story startswhen my brothers came home from
fallujah, where isaac had beenan infantry officer but the
civil relations rebuilding thecommunity, joe had been a sniper
with 120 missions under hisbelt and they told me the truth

(04:09):
was not making it home from Iraqand as a brother that really
pissed me off.
So I made the, I guess,unconventional, unique decision
to take every dollar ever made,started a production company and
went back home, raised somemore money and went to Iraq and
joined Isaac on his thirddeployment in Mosul, iraq.
And that is the start ofbrothers at war.

(04:29):
You know, isaac's leaving forhis third deployment saying
goodbye to his little daughter,um, and then I, you see my
journey to go join him overseasand then get out to the Syrian
border.
The guys I meet out there arein the new film brothers after
war, my, my own brothers.
We reconnect with them.
But also, you know, first Istarted with Isaac's unit, went
out to the Syrian border withthem, captured life in Mosul,

(04:51):
iraq.
But then, you know, in thesecond half of Brothers After
War, I returned to the Sunnitriangle between Ramadi and
Fallujah and I embed with threeunits infantry company, sniper
team and then marine advisorsworking with the Iraqi army, and
ended up getting into a decentamount of combat, spent about

(05:11):
six weeks there, went out sixdays a week and met just some
amazing, amazing people over thecourse of all four of those
embeds.
And so in Brothers After War,what we do is we follow up with
my two brothers and then 10friends I made in Iraq, and in
order to do that I had toliterally travel the globe.
I think we ended up shooting onfour continents.

(05:32):
And in order to give theaudience a little bit of fun and
really wanted to be fair tothem, right, because I did ask
some tough questions, we dovisit some tough parts of the
war I do in the interim of thesetwo movies.
I work with I think we'repushing up to 50,000 service
members and their families.
So I've spent years more thantwo decades, you know working
with these vets, getting them touse the first film to open up

(05:55):
about their experience injournal.
So I wanted to do a little bitof a deep dive so I asked tough
questions.
You know we really dug in.
But I also wanted to give aholistic look at what a veteran
is.
So I did stuff.
Like you know, derek talksabout jumping out of an airplane
in 2005 in.
Iraq and there's no betterfeeling.
So of course we have to, in themodern day, cut to.
He looks like a Viking and hethrows me out the side of an

(06:16):
airplane.
And Chris is going to Hondurasto help out another vet and
scuba diving, so we have to goto Honduras with him to do that,
and you know, the list goes onand on.
You know there's there's allthese, which to me, is one of
the favorite.
My favorite parts of the movieis seeing and spending a day
with them in their life now.
Whether it's working withspecial needs kids, whether it's

(06:38):
building luxury homes on LongIsland, you know, whether it's
jumping out of airplanes or ordoing life-saving non-profit
work, you know they are leadingreally adventurous, interesting
lives now and I wanted tocapture the essence of that.
There's also, you know, a lot ofcamaraderie and humor, most of
the times at my expense.
That's in the film as well.
You know, I really wantedpeople to enjoy the experience

(07:00):
of revisiting these folks, andso I feel like that's a really
important part of it and reallygives you like a nice,
well-rounded view of ourveterans, and I think it's a
very approachable film for thatreason, and you know it, I
recently watched the film at theReagan presidential library and
they were laughing at all theright places and that really
made me feel good.
You know I was like, okay, thisis a, this is a film that

(07:22):
people really enjoy watching.
Made me feel good, you know Iwas like, okay, this is a, this
is a film that people reallyenjoy watching.
And then in the midst of thatyou also get some real insights,
I would say, into the veryheart of our veterans and their
families.

Scott (07:34):
It is definitely a rollercoaster ride of emotions.
No doubt about that.
Isaac and Joe, your youngerbrothers.

Jake (07:44):
Yep, isaac and Joe, both younger brothers.
I know Isaac looks a littleolder, I'm just aging better.

Scott (07:54):
So that as a big brother, right in the big brother's role
, growing up and you watch thesetwo go off up and you watch
these two go off and you getthat rare opportunity to
actually be over there with themin bed with them.
What was the process of gettingthat done?

Jake (08:18):
Oh, a year of pain and suffering.
Um, you know, I had to apply tothe military.
I had to get an experiencedproducer on board.
I tried to get a network to doit and we got.
I had to apply to the military.
I had to get an experiencedproducer on board.
I I tried to get a network todo it and we got all the way up
to the top, but no networkwanted to send a first time
filmmaker into a war zone.
So I got a producer by the nameof Norman Powell, legendary
television producer, produced,you know, 24,.

(08:38):
The pilot of the unit, um, did adocumentary about metal of
honor recipients himself, and sohe, he loved what I was trying
to do and he said I'll back youup.
And then the department ofdefense said okay, you know, I
went back to my hometown,decatur, illinois.
I got 18 people to put up money.
They also wanted to get thetruth back.
The, the, the you know thestory from the people on the

(08:59):
front lines, you know to givethem a voice.
They, they, they signed on forthat mission.
And once I put all thattogether and it took about 12
months I got the green lightfrom the DOD and then jumped on
an airplane and flew to Iraq andgot started.

Scott (09:15):
So during this movie is actually that that brings
something up.
There's a conversation betweenyou and your brother and
Afghanistan and he conversationbetween you and your brother and
Afghanistan and he keptquestioning you like how do you
know?
How do you know that we aresupposed to be there?
How do you know we would dowhich was?
So you see, that level ofbrotherly connection, because

(09:38):
now he has the right to talk toyou and question you.
You're not just a documentarian, he's talking to you as his
brother.
He's not talking for the camera,which I thought was very
interesting, but it really didshow, uh, the intensity of what
a veteran thinks about comingback from there like you don't

(09:58):
know, you don't know if we'rethere, they don't know if they
were there for the right reason,but they were doing their job.
So when those things pop up, asa director, as a documentarian,
is there anything in your head?
That kind of twists like thisis good content.
It's kind of a weird questionto ask, but you evoked a real

(10:23):
emotion from him and which isalways good film.
Did that ever I don't know ifthat's the appropriate question
uh, come into play like, wow,that that was a good it's.
It's, it's touching, but it was, it's, it's, it's great, it's
great film, it's great.

(10:44):
Watching for the, for theviewer, because I was like my
eyes were open.

Jake (10:49):
I was like this is, this is real I mean listen, in the
moment you're seeing my realemotions, my real.
That's a real argument.
You know, he's actually got myire up a little bit.
Uh, he's, he's pissed me off.
Um, I'm trying.
You know, I generally keep mycool more than him, but you know
, but that's a real debate.
I myself like to watch thosemoments because it stays sort of

(11:11):
the same but I change, andbecause it's an authentic human
moment.
Sometimes Joe's point of view Istart to understand more or
agree with over time.
I felt like there's a couplemoments right, there's me as the
human being trying to make thefilm, also, at the same time, a
brother, and there's thisconflict that's coming and it's

(11:33):
a conflict.
What I thought was interestingis what's unique is I was in
Iraq.
I spent three months.
I did all the embeds, you know.
I went out and got all thesedifferent points of view.
I've been working with vets,I've been paying attention,
right.
But he's also been on the frontlines.
He's deployed nine times now.
He's he's got a college degreeand a master's.
This is not the you know 18year old thousand yard stare.

(11:55):
This is now a former special,you know tier one operator who
has been, like you said in andout of Afghanistan like seven
times in a decade and seen a lotof people come and go to
include in body bags I mean,he's, he has.
And so I felt, you know, once Igot into the editing room, once
I'm like looking at as adirector, I'm going like I can't
suppress this.
This is something people shouldsee, because this is an

(12:17):
authentic conversation.
This is this matters to peoplethat serve.
This is important, and mepersonally, as a filmmaker, I
feel like this is a moreimportant conversation, a more
important debate, than half thethings we argue about as a
country.
People put their lives on theline here.
I even like the point ofcontention we have, which is

(12:40):
regarding Syria, and I'm like,well, 3 million people have come
from Syria and now live inEurope, so doing nothing's
causing a problem.
And then he's like, yeah, buthow do you know you're back in
the right one?
How do you know you're notmaking it worse when you become
the versus, the liberator,versus you know, you know coming
in and dominating.
So he's, you know, theconqueror.

(13:01):
So so the debate is the debate.
The debate is the debate thatwe're having and it was, you
know, just very important.
You know, you know, thatargument, that fight that spills
out in in in Italy, which kindof kicked off this whole

(13:22):
conversation is, is like thatwas a real moment.
I mean, that's, those are realemotions.
Uh, it just went sideways.
He got upset.
You know, he, he, he's, he'sreally leaning into me and I'm,
I'm pushing back, uh, his wifegets involved.
Yeah, and I gotta be honestwith you, a lot of people love

(13:43):
that, military spouses inparticular.
It's their favorite scene inthe whole film.

Scott (13:46):
She stood up like that's yeah, she jumped right.
That was unexpected as a viewerthat came out of nowhere.
I'll tell you that really waslike holy shit, like this ain't.
This is real.
This is really real for me too,scott, for me too I bet,
because the look on your face,you were, you were perplexed,

(14:09):
you were like whoa, what justhappened here?

Jake (14:11):
and the cameraman was brilliant.

Scott (14:15):
I mean, this was brilliant and he was just
filming the moment, but it cameout like uh, again out of
nowhere, it just kind ofsteadily, and that stemmed from
a gentleman that came over.
So you were in Italy.
You're visiting your brotherand his family.
Can I ask you why was he inItaly?

Jake (14:37):
So great question.
Okay.
So, joe, you know, since thefirst film, joe goes off.
He unfortunately gets a divorce.
But after that, you know, heIsaac's like look, you really
wanted to stay in the military,you're going to get out, Like,
why don't you try out for one ofthese special units?
So he does, and he gets in, sohe joins a special unit.

(14:58):
Betty ends up meeting Daniellealong the way and they fall in
love and they get married and sohe's off there.
He does six deployments.
Well, as time goes on, they haveone child, two children.
Now she's got three children.
Now she's got a child that'srefusing to talk to his dad.
She's got two kids cryingthemselves to bed.
It's like she's, it's just liketoo much.
He's home for six weeks, anentire year.

(15:19):
This is year after year.
So she just, you know, and Iand and um, you see me kind of,
you know, lean into her a littlein the film and really, you
know not let her brush over thisstuff.
I, you know, I was like youmust not have heard about me.
We're gonna have a realconversation, welcome to the
family.
And uh, you know, this is adocumentary, so it's like doctor

(15:41):
, no one wants to hear about howgreat we are.
We really got to dig to the boneand and if we're going to be of
use.
And so I ask her thosequestions and so she reveals
that so the reason why they'rein Italy is because she says,
look, it's me, or the range ofItalian, and he's like, okay,
babe, I agree.
You know, I've done sixdeployments I've put in a decade
with this unit.
It's been, it's been amazing,it's been amazing.

(16:04):
I've lived my dream.
But now it's not just me.
And so he, he makes his exitfrom the unit, he transfers over
and uh, but he still has timeto serve and he's got all this
incredible experience.
So he puts in to be the Fordplanning uh, senior NCO for all
missions in Africa, obviouslysomething he's incredibly

(16:26):
trained for.
Right now he's going to helpthem look at like, what's it
going to take to do this missionafter?
This is a guy who's done all themissions, been on the front
lines, knows some of thoseterritories, has deployed to
Somalia and amongst other places, and so he's got all that
experience to bear for planningthe operation, for other
soldiers and Marines and SEALsto go out there and do things.

(16:46):
So he signs up for that, hegets the job.
Now the other part of that ishe never got to take a honeymoon
because he was so busy as atier one operator.
And where did they want to go?
Italy.
So it's kind of a gift to hiswife to say, look, I got a
station to Italy for three yearsand she learns Italian and you
know, they spend three yearsover there.

(17:08):
Apparently it was successfulfor their relationship because,
uh, shortly after arriving inItaly a fourth child appears and
by the end of the film there'sa fifth child.
So apparently, you know,apparently that was, uh,
apparently that was a good moveas a husband and a family man.
So yeah, that's why they're inItaly.

(17:29):
You know, there's another verypersonal angle here.
He's named after my grandfather, joseph Edward Rademacher, who
was a B-25 co-pilot bomber onthe 17th successful mission over
northern Italy.
He gets shot down and he spendsthe last six months.
At first they thought he wasdead, missing in action, assumed

(17:50):
dead.
That's Veterans Day.
That's the telegram his wifeand family got.
But he wasn't dead.
Italian partisans actually savedhis life.
They flexed, got out to thepoint where he was there with
his bloody nose, broken nose,bleeding all over the place,
sprained ankle.
They grabbed him and saved hislife and whisked him away, hit

(18:13):
him, actually in the attic of amadam's house with the Nazis hot
in pursuit.
They didn't find him and thenhe ended up making a unique
decision.
Usually pilots would head offto Switzerland, get back in an
airplane, but he really feltlike he wanted to stay and work
with these Italian partisans.
So he spent the last six monthsof the war fighting side by side

(18:33):
with Italian partisans, doingsabotage missions, organizing,
you know, drops of arms andmunition, communicating back to
the allies that these guys havegot their stuff together and we
should support them.
Communicating back to theallies that these guys have got
their stuff together.
We should support them and youknow that ended up being an
integral part of the war.
So in the film you see me, youknow, I wanted to do an activity

(18:54):
with every veteran which wassort of you know, symbolic and
interesting and part of who theyare.
So with Joe we actually go tothe site where our grandfather
left the airplane and startedhis fight on the ground with the
Italian partisans and I thoughtman Joe is literally, you know,
following in his name stakes,foot, stakes, you know footsteps

(19:16):
, with everything he's done.
Let's go back to this originstory for the family and then
let Joe talk about an opine upon.
You know what does this mean assomeone who's kind of led a
very similar life?

Scott (19:27):
That was the one of the things that we touched on a
couple minutes ago the gentlemanthat came over to trace where
your grandfather was, andsomehow you mentioned the Iraq
war and the shit hit the fan.

Jake (19:49):
Scott for me.
I thought it was look, you seeme in the film.
I get excited.
I literally, if you watch it, ifyou watch it a second time,
watch the light bulb go off inmy mind and all I was saying was
so he's telling us that theItalian partisans, where they
came from?
Well, because in 1943, theItalians go we're done, we're

(20:10):
out of the axis, mussolini's outof power, so all of a sudden
they disband the Italian army.
So they're all these trainedguys, there's nobody there.
And then they all of a sudden,they became the partisans.
They're trained soldiers, theygot weapons, they're no longer
in the army, so they take uparms.
And so I was like wait a minute, isn't that what we did with
the Iraqi army?
Like we told them you're goingto have jobs, and then we just

(20:32):
disbanded them.

Scott (20:33):
That was the fuse, and then a lot of them became and he
went nuts, went epileptic.

Jake (20:59):
He was like look, brother, I'm making a point about
something.
I was on the ground withItalian not Italian with with
Iraqi soldiers on the ground,embedded with them, breaking
bread with them but dodgingbullets with them, you know,
covering their.
I'm sorry, but this is like myfirsthand observation and part
of a bigger, you know, theme.
For me, a bigger idea is thatwe've got to learn from our
mistakes.
You know I'm not here callingout or or or trying to
villainize anybody, but I'mtrying to say, hey look, we made
this decision.
It wasn't the right one.

(21:21):
Like, can we, can we agree 20years later it didn't work out
well, like it would?
Maybe we, maybe we should allthink about that and maybe why
it didn't work.
Yeah, just so the next time.
So then, if we end, or ever endup in this situation again, we,
we have this collective wisdomas a society that we carry
forward yeah, and there's onething that you had going for you

(21:42):
that there was really.

Scott (21:44):
It didn't get brought up, and I was waiting for something
to come up in that conversation.
You weren't just a director inHollywood or in you know,
arizona or wherever.
You would be talking to thesesoldiers, these veterans, after
they got there.
You had the lived experience.
You were there, you breathed it, you ate with them, you slept

(22:07):
there, you saw it all.
So you had the lived experienceand I was waiting for it.
Like well, you don't understand, but you do understand.
That was the thing you dounderstand, which is very
valuable.
When you're having an argumentlike that, you have something to
fall back on, because militaryguys are notorious and women for

(22:29):
like well, you weren't there,you don't know.
I've seen that a hundred timesif I've seen it a thousand times
.
You weren't there, so you don'tknow, but you were there, so
you did know.
I want to move into something alittle more, I guess, personal.
There's that conversation withyour brother, um, when he shared

(22:54):
something very personal with it.
He hadn't shared with anybodybefore and he's sitting there
with you and he said I thoughtabout suicide.
So, as the viewer again cameout of nowhere, that was like
wow.
But then when he said I'd nevertold anybody.

(23:16):
So what was your feel as abrother?
I mean, you had to begut-wrenched over this Because
you did kind of play it off atthe end like hey, next time call
me Like you did kind of.
But when he told you that inthat moment what was running

(23:37):
through your mind?
Like how did that hit you?

Jake (23:43):
Well, I was in shock.
I mean, I think, if you see me,yeah, I'm just in shock.
Yeah, I was in shock.
I didn't, I had no idea, Ididn't know he was gonna open up
about that.
I never knew that that had evenhappened.
No one in my family had everbeen told that.
Like he's literally the firstperson he's told.
He told a couple people at work, you know, a couple of the
other instructors, sniper schooland and that's it.

(24:04):
He didn't.
He didn't tell anyone in ourfamily.
So the first person he's everopening up to is me, by the
river there.
And yeah, it was just absolutelyshocking.
You know, you know he told mehe's half pound of pressure away
from taking his own life.
You know that it was in the gun, was in his mouth and the whole
nine yards.
And I just, you know, I thinkback and I go, man, that would
have been so devastating.

(24:25):
I had already lost one brother.
If I lost a second one, I justcouldn't even imagine.
You know what that would havebeen like.
And you look back at your timeon earth and you go like you
didn't even know that that couldhave been part of your story,
like that would have just thrownyour entire experience into
another vortex.
You know, and here I've beenout here working with all these

(24:49):
veterans and their families, andthis is, this is something that
you know I mentioned in thebeginning of films alluded me.
You know this, this, thistroubled me is that sometimes,
when I go out and work withthese folks, you know, a week
before I get there somebody diesby suicide.
I work with the two on rains.
The day before somebody jumpedoff the top of the barracks.
I mean, it's like um, so it wasreally uh, it was an incredible

(25:11):
moment.
It really shocked me.
You know, at the very end, I'm,I'm like, call me, I'm like I
kind of hit him.
You know, I was like I was alittle pissed, uh, frankly, and
he kind of brushes it off, but Iwas like um, a little upset
that he hadn't reached out.
Uh, you know the the, but thereality is, is is.

(25:32):
I just feel like Joe has givenso many people a huge gift.
I mean his emotional courage toopen up about that.
And he says why.
He says, if it's, if he cansave one soldier's life, then
it's, then.
That's why I'm telling you thisis just unbelievable.
And he's because of his recordin the military because of what

(25:56):
he's done.
I've already seen otherveterans all of a sudden be able
to open up and feel comfortable.
He has paved the way for that.
The brothers afterwards alreadysaved a life that we know of,
maybe many, many more, but hisyou know.
And in the film you know, it'sabout a third of the way through
the film and the film reallyturns at that moment because now

(26:18):
the journey is going to get.
You know, now my own brother isopening up this world to me and
that continues as I go throughthe film.
And so I felt like that was areally valuable piece of the
movie was its ability to go intothat space with people that had
felt that way, with someone whohad a relationship where he

(26:39):
could ask questions, where youknow, because later on with
Chris McKay, I'm like, take methrough that.
What is that like?
And I think that's afrustration that so many of us
feel in this space.
You know we've lost 120,000veterans to suicide.
We lost 6,700 of the WarrenTeravets in the field killed in
action.

(27:00):
We lost 35,000 to suicide inthose 20 years.
So you know, usc did a study30% are at risk for suicide.
So this is running rampantthrough the veteran population.
So for me it's like if it'sthat common, it shouldn't be
taboo to talk about it.
We got to start to talk aboutit, we got to realize it's not a

(27:20):
big deal.
If you're feeling that way as aveteran, well, you're not that
special.
Guess what?
One in three have a dark nightof the soul at some point, so
don't feel like you have anissue to bring it up or to talk
about it.
Some of the most incrediblepeople I know have come real
close and I feel so blessed thatthey're now starting to talk
about that and paving the wayfor others to talk about that,

(27:42):
and we're going to probably savetons and tons of lives.
And there's just incrediblepeople that just come really
close.
But, by the grace of God, orthey know what to do, or they
you know they have a little bitof, or they make the phone call
and the person answers the phoneand talks them off the ledge,
you know, and they are stillhere with us.
And I think collectively, ifall of us can know a little bit

(28:07):
more, we can be a little morecomfortable.
We know what the signs are.
Then we, as those who you knowwant to wrap our arms around our
vets.
We can sort of create anatmosphere and an environment
where many, many lives will besaved.

Scott (28:20):
I've taken a couple of those phone calls and it's hard
for the person answering.
Also, they come out of nowhere,literally 10 30 at night on a
Wednesday, so there's no settime for it and you're never
ready for it.
You just have to get your shittogether when the call comes.
Um, and and in your case was it?

(28:41):
Uh, like not my brother.
Like I've talked to otherveterans but not my brother,
like they're good, did that ever?
And I also.
While you're thinking that, thebravery it took for him to
admit that at that moment,knowing that the camera was
rolling and this is going to gointernational, the fact that he

(29:04):
did that at that moment, wasthat took just took big balls to
do that, like it really did.
And that's because of you.
I'm sure he did that and it wasbecause of you, you know.
So big ups to you for doingthat and being there, and then

(29:26):
him opening up to you.
That's what big brothers arefor, right it was.

Jake (29:31):
Yeah, it was so generous of him.
You know, I gotta be honest,joe was the most fervent
supporter of this film within myfamily.
Yeah, he saw the purpose of it.
You know, at this point in hislife he was a master sergeant, a
master sergeant's lookout forthe other soldiers and their
families.
That's their job and he takesthat very seriously.

(29:52):
So he, yeah, he's huge guts,yeah, and I just think
generosity, I mean so, sogenerous of him to open up and
share about that for the benefitof others.
It still sets me back when Ithink about it a little bit.

Scott (30:15):
Yeah, let's move on to something other than that.
And we talked a little before Ihit the record button.
We talked a little before I hitthe record button.
The whole COVID thing and thetiming and the just like this
was literally the worst timingin the world for you.
So do you want to take usthrough, like what you were

(30:39):
getting ready to do and?

Jake (30:42):
and all of a sudden, boom, I can't make it what yeah, I
mean, look you were, oh my gosh,you were getting ready to go
see your brother, right?

Scott (30:54):
yeah, we were in africa, correct?
Yeah?
Both of my brothers both of mybrothers are going to be africa
line, which is the biggestmilitary exercise of the year.

Jake (31:03):
They're going to have militaries from all these
different countries.
My brother, Isaac, is in chargeof all the military advisors
across Africa.
Joe is going to be therebecause he's part of Africa
command in Italy.
Beautiful, I mean.
We have access everywhere.
It's like what countries are wegoing to go into?
What units do we want to film?
You want a tank shooting guysjumping out of airplanes?

(31:25):
What do you want to do?
It's like a filmmaker's dreamcome true.
Right, you know.
And, by the way, you don't getthere by saying hello to the
military.
You got to work your way up,you know.
But you, you do do the sniperhide sites in Iraq and all that.
You build up a littlereputation and you get.
You get opportunities like this, so you know, and then to put a
film together and get thefinancing in place and all of

(31:46):
the clearances and all thatstuff, it's all set.
Like we're literally we're aboutto pull the trigger on plane
tickets.
We're going to be in Africa inlike a week and it all comes
crashing down, crashing down onMarch 14th.
There's that scene in the carwhere I just allowed the viewers

(32:09):
into my personal mental statebecause I was just so upset and
you never know, you just rollthe camera and just speak from
your heart and you ended upgoing.
We got to put this in.
They got to know that this wasnot just another day in the life
.
And then also it's very ironicI say on March 14th, 2020, it's

(32:29):
not going to be three months andyou did say that.

Scott (32:32):
You did say that I predicted it.

Jake (32:36):
And it's like and there it is, and Joseph is a very
similar thing about Afghanistanin 2019.
And just, it was justincredible.
You know this calling somethingbefore it happens, you know,
and then it's not in the film asmuch.
You see a little bit of it.
You see me there, I go forIsaac's departure and stuff like
that.
You know we didn't want to,because the film is really about
the veterans and their storythen and now we really had to

(32:58):
stay on that path.
But there is some kind of funbackstory there.
You know we were the very firstoh my god, just give me ptsd
talking about it uh, you know,we were the first production
allowed back on a military base.
So when you see me filmingisaac leaving for tunisia where

(33:20):
I was supposed to go with him,by the way, but at least I get
to film them leaving we wereliterally the first production
company allowed back on amilitary base.
That's that's what's happeningthere.
We were the first productioncompany allowed back into Italy
at the end of the film.
Wow, like the you know, theItalian when, when I got to
Tunisia, that was like an act ofGod.
I have no idea.
I mean to this day.

(33:40):
I know what.
What happened?
But you know, uh, we, ourembeds, have gone from
everywhere in africa tocompletely canceled tunisia is
completely canceled.
Um, I, you know I finally getpermission from the military.
I'm working.
I, you know, I've got formerfour-star general head of the
gary sneeze foundation writingletters to the ambassador.
Yeah, uh, they're like we can'tsupport it.

(34:01):
Okay, fine, so I'm scrambling.
Eventually I get this, this,this phone call response from a
local tunisian producer who'slike well, wouldn't it be better
if you just interviewed isaacright here?
I'm like yeah we can't getclearance.
We've been working on for fourmonths and he goes.
Well, let me see what I can do.
So he he pulled.
You know, I don't.
I think he had a relationshipwith the head of culture for
tunisia, so he goes to him.

(34:22):
This is a legitimate film.
This is gary sinise.
Executive producer.
This is the film.
This is the director wants tocome here to his brother.
It's a 15-year project.
Can we make this happen?
He says yes, so tunisia'sclosed.
You can't get in there as atourist or business.
We got like this specialexemption right.
This is like july or august,you know, uh, 2020.

(34:44):
So then I get a call from theambassador's office and she's
just reading me the riot act,told you the ambassador's not
supporting this.
And I'm just like shocked andI'm like I just thought you
weren't going to pick me up atthe airport or something like
that.
I was on my own, you know.
So, uh, she goes look, theydon't want us to know we're
supporting the tunisian military.
So so I tell my Tunisianproducer and he's like what?

(35:09):
But it's in the newspapers.
I go could you send me a copyof that please?
And he goes yeah, it's Dumont,that's an international French
paper.
It's like not even just the.
So she sends me this Two papers.
One is our secretary of defensethere meeting with them.
I'm like, okay, that's cool.
The next is the secretary ofdefense hugging a soldier.

(35:29):
As I look closer at this hug ofa soldier or the shake of the
hand of a soldier, I go that'smy brother.
That's my brother, Isaac.
Not only is it in the paper,they've approved my cast, the
Tunisians have put my brother inthe newspaper shaking hands
with the secretary of defense.

(35:50):
So I'm like good news, good news.
The Tunisians are supportinglet's go.
And you know, we scrambled toget there.
We are in an empty airplane onthe way to Paris, In the Paris
airport.
We weren't in the proper hoteland what I've learned?
Sometimes with bureaucracyespecially, you know, you start

(36:11):
getting into African bureaucracy, French bureaucracy, you start
to go okay, okay, okay, what dowe got to do?
What do we got to do?
I got to stay at the GoldenLion Hotel.
Okay, okay, great.
So people are literally gettingon the airplane.
Okay, my cameraman in there.
I'm on all fours typing into mylaptop at charles de gaulle

(36:31):
airport to book two rooms at thegolden lion tunisian hotel.
I book it.
I'm showing him.
Look, I booked it, we're in theapproved.

Scott (36:44):
COVID hotel.

Jake (36:46):
And he lets us on.
We're the last two people onthe airplane.

Scott (36:49):
They said no to other people.

Jake (36:51):
My other cameraman he for some reason couldn't get his
special visa or whatever.
He came the day later he was anIraq vet.
He's 11 years in the Navy,right E-7.
Squared away guy.
He comes through Tunisia.
He looks like shell, shocked.
It was like what do we need todo to you man?
Are you okay?
You know he was like you guysabandoned me.

(37:13):
We get to Tunisia they try toquarantine our gear and my
cameraman remember this is a guythat gets the country open.
He, you know we get him in onthe case.
My cameraman's like no, no,we're, we're leaving this
airport with our gear.
I'll sleep next to the gear.
And so I'm like he's not, wegot it.
We got it.

(37:33):
We got to.
We need our cameras.
We're here to make a film.
You can't.
But somehow we get our gear outof the Tunisian locking box or
whatever.
We get our cameras.
Then the story doesn't end.
We get in the cars there is acurfew in Tunisia.

(37:53):
You know, after the hours ittook to get there and then get
our gear, we're in this like youknow little, like I don't know
shuttle thing or whatever we'verented, and we get pulled over
by the police three times.
Fortunately I've hired security.
I got a couple off-duty cops,tunisian cops, who pop out and

(38:14):
these guys look like they'reguys going to the club.
You never know they were likeyou know detectives or whatever.
They pop out, they're talkingto the guys with the machine
guns and eventually, you know,we get to the hotel and we get
to begin work there in Tunisia.
And you know, I just look backon that and go like what if we
didn't make it?
What if we didn't do that?
You know, and, by the way, noneof that's in the movie, in the

(38:37):
film.

Scott (38:38):
Were you recording all this?
Is this all on film?
Is this?
Oh, was this?
Like don't even bother, let'sjust get to our place.

Jake (38:47):
Let's get to the golden lion, it's all I want to do
pretty much because a part ofhe's like we can end up in jail.
You know what I mean.
Like we're I don't know therules here.
We're you know we're alreadyway outside the wire here we're
way beyond where anyone else is,you know?
um, so yeah, it was just.
I was crazy that little walkdown.
Now, what you do see in thefilm with with isaac and I

(39:08):
talking about tunisia and thework he's been doing, we do like
a walk and talk.
I think we got stopped by thepolice three different times
because that's like the townsquare of tunisia.
So it was like, oh my goodness,you, you know, you know they're
sensitive, they, they, you knowthey're terrorist issues there
and Libya's next door, and allthat stuff.

(39:28):
So, so I totally get it, but I,I just couldn't imagine not
making the film there.
It was just too important.
It's Isaac's seventh and finaldeployment, you know, and you,
you, you, it's all worth it whenyou watch the film.
There were, you know, on theflip side of that, I was able to

(39:53):
rent out the third largestRoman Coliseum ever built.
Yeah, that blew my mind.
So I got, I got the run of theplace.
So I thought where, where,where, where would there be a
better place to sit Isaac downand talk about, like what?

Scott (39:59):
does it all mean?

Jake (40:00):
Where are we going from here?
So from a place where warriorshave been fighting, you know,
2000 years ago, to sit them downand have that conversation.
So you know, tunisia was thisepic backdrop to kind of have
Isaac reflect on.
You know a career that spansmore than two decades to talk
about.
You know the meaning of what'snext and then to be with him,

(40:24):
you know, even just from anemotional standpoint as a
brother, to be with my brotheron his seventh and final
deployment and to come home withhim and make that, you know,
the end of the film was just soimportant.
So I I think you know my heartwas just driving me forward
through all those you knowhurdles and blowing up up all
the obstacles and then, as thebrain of a producer, some of the

(40:46):
best producing I ever did, andyou're probably the only person
to ever know or ask about it,scott.

Scott (40:55):
So you get through all that.
I want to kind of move on alittle bit.
This actually just popped intomy head and I would be remiss if
I didn't talk about it or askyou about it.
Your nephew, that was.
That was a very touching partof the film.

(41:19):
You want to talk about him alittle bit, and and uh, when you
were holding saying hey, thisis what he drives, and the kids
are like, oh, his kids love bigtrucks and all that, but the, uh
, the story of your nephew, youwant to, yeah it was, um, you

(41:40):
know it was really.

Jake (41:41):
You know it was really.
You know, in Brothers at Waryou we reveal, you know, halfway
through the film that and it'syou know that that my brother
Thad had died when he was 20, amonth before 9-11.
And, you know, overdosed ondrugs what was not a service
member.
But you know the pain is thepain, it's the same.
You know trauma is trauma.
You lose your brother.
It breaks your heart.

(42:02):
Trauma is trauma.
You lose your brother.
It breaks your heart.
And you know I was makingbrothers after war and he left
behind a three-year-old son andhis son grew up and now is about
the same age 20, as his dad andhe decides to join the military
, following in the footsteps ofhis uncle.
So I'm interviewing him, wefilm him around the motor pool

(42:22):
and you see the video of himtalking to his cousins.
He's the coolest cousin out.
He's got these huge trucks andhe's a mechanic on all these
huge vehicles, humvees.
It's really, really fascinating.
But I'm sitting there doing aninterview in the motor pool and
all of a sudden I'm looking outand I see my brother.
He's the same age Thad was whenhe died.

(42:42):
He looks like him and it just Ijust couldn't.
And then it's one of thosemoments where you go am I going
to suppress this or am I justgoing to acknowledge this is how
I'm feeling?
And I just said to heck with it.
I'm going to say the truth,this is what I'm feeling, and I
say it.
And then he says me too.
And and then we cut to, youknow, going out into the forest
to talk about it, and you knowthat was just such an incredible

(43:05):
experience.
You know he had been, you know,wondering all those years.
You know, was I not worth it tomake better choices?
And um, and you see my responsethat I get pretty emotional, um
, and open up and talk, and andI meant what I you know, we are

(43:25):
the sum of our choices andyou've made better choices than
him and he'd be very proud ofyou, how you turned out.
And I just feel like thesemoments are important because
hopefully they'll spark othermoments and other families to
have these conversations.
You know, quentin's not theonly soldier, the only man to
ever feel that way, whose fatheris no longer there.

(43:47):
I've had talked to othersoldiers, actually, who feel the
exact same way, and so I thinkit's.
You know, I know this is a verypersonal story to myself and my
nephew and my family, but Ithink sometimes, you know, the
more truthful and human andhonest you get, the more other
people see themselves in thatmoment and it resonates with
them, it has value to them.

(44:08):
Um, it was.
There were other moments inmaking the film that really
touched my heart.
Chris mckay touched my heart,um, a big a ton.
But that moment, you know youcould see, I I did tear up.
You know I did emotion overcameme because that moment, you
know you could see, I did tearup.
You know I did emotion overcameme because it was just, you
know, maybe in some ways I madethese films because of my

(44:29):
brother.
You know, my brother died and Ireally learned what a brother is
worth and that's why, when mybrothers told me the truth
wasn't coming home, it it, ithurt me so much and I wanted to
do something about it.
You know, as their olderbrother, um, to look out for
them, to love them, to care forthem and also to make sure that
their children, should somethinghappen, knew who their fathers
were and what their values wereand what they believed in and

(44:52):
why they made these sacrificesand why they took these risks.
It wasn't for themselves, itwas for others.
They're trying to help otherpeople, and so I feel like I.
You know we can't change whathappens in life sometimes, and I
would trade these two films tohave my brother walk through the
door, but we don't get to makethat choice.
In life, sometimes, bad thingshappen and we're the ones left

(45:15):
behind and we've got to make achoice of what we do with it.
And what I chose to do is tryto turn it into something
positive, Try to learn from itand try to make it better for my
own brothers.
And the reason I made a filmwas because I thought maybe my
family's not the only one that'sever gone through something
like this and just maybe, goingon this journey, there's going
to be some you know, elixir.
There's going to be somethingthat can help others, and I

(45:36):
didn't know it when I startedthis project.
But now I know you know some ofthat's post-traumatic, that's
post-traumatic growth, right,the learning like what's really
important in life and empathyfor others and bigger picture,
and I want our veterans andother folks who've experienced
trauma and their families toknow.
You know you don't want to hidefrom these things, you don't

(45:56):
want to bury them.
You actually want to lean intothem, you want to journal about
them, you want to communicateabout them, you want to find a
way to process these experiencesbecause if you do, as my
brother Isaac once said, thesmell of cut grass laying next
to his wife in bed, he's likethese might be simple things but
you just can't understand theflavor.
You know, and I want people whoexperienced tough things to be

(46:19):
able to process thoseexperiences so they don't, they
don't, they don't define them,they don't pull them back
forever.
It always be a a deeper colorin the tapestry of your story,
but you also are able toappreciate things in a whole new
way and have a whole newperspective that you can't have
without going through that and Iwant everyone to get to that

(46:40):
place and to be not just survivebut to thrive absolutely um the
cutting back and forth.

Scott (46:49):
Again, this just uh popped into my head that the
young joe, the young isaac andnow the seasoned veterans
they're not veterans per se, butseasoned soldiers Mm-hmm, is an
absolute.

(47:10):
Like you just kind of look.
You're like wow, like look atthem Like they were just kids
and we always say this, right,when we get to a certain age
they're just kids.
And they were literally justkids and something.
I was at an event this morningand a nurse that was in Vietnam,
in country, at one of thehottest spots.

(47:34):
She was asked a question andsomeone said well, how old are
you?
She said I was 22.
She said I was 22, but I wasworking on kids that were 18, 19
.
She said we were all kids andthat's no different than going

(47:58):
over to the desert.
They're just kids, they're alljust kids, which that really put
perspective on it, like I'dnever really had it presented
that way before and to think ofthat.
And so then you see the, the,the cutbacks of your brothers.
They're just kids, you know,and it was to see what they

(48:22):
turned out to be, and and youget to see it more, was you can?
I don't even know if you couldfill in those blanks, right, but
that was just something I justthought of and it was.
It's just the watching thattransformation, seeing it jump
back and forth.
So then the reconnections rightNow you're going to go back and

(48:46):
you went to visit these kidsfrom Brothers at War, the first
movie, and there was 10 of them,I believe.

Jake (48:57):
Correct, that's correct, yeah, two brothers and 10
friends I made 10 friends.

Scott (49:03):
That was kind of like a planes, trains and automobiles
thing.
Like you were just now, I'mgonna drive, I'm driving
everywhere.
Right, because of covid, right,you?

Jake (49:13):
didn't want to chance anything.

Scott (49:16):
So what is what's the one standout?
And they're all great men andwomen.
And there is the one woman inthere and I want to touch on
that for a second.
When she said, when she wastalking about the fact that
she's busting her ass just likeeverybody else, and that one

(49:39):
troop said, ah, this place wouldbe a better place if there were
more pretty girls like you, shewas like what the fuck like?
And I, I know, I I knew youngwomen like that that would just
like dog handlers.
I was a dog handler for 10 yearsand if you're a female dog
handler, you're in a real alphamale situation.

(50:01):
You got to keep up and they did, and they did great, but they
were still.
They were still females, theywere still women and but you
didn't, you didn't go that routewith them.
You could treat them just likethey wanted to be treated.
But that was when she said thatshe was like that's the one
thing that just set her off, nomatter what everybody else said,

(50:21):
because I know she was aroundand you know she was around a
lot of shit talking.
But the one thing that set heroff, no matter what everybody
else said, because I know shewas around, and you know she was
around a lot of shit talking,but the one thing that set her
off right was that which and shestill remembered it all those
years later.
You know, up to this, when youend it, she's like that's the
one, like what the really did.
You just say that to me.

(50:42):
There's always one in the crowd.
I can tell you that there'smore than one usually.
But so the revisiting, what wasthat like?
What was the process to that?
Yeah, mapped it out.

(51:03):
I'm going to go see this person, this person, this person Was
there any particular order, forany particular reason, or it
just happened to be?

Jake (51:13):
Well, you know, those are, those are great questions, you
know, first of all, soeducational, so enlightening.
I mean I you can see myresponse just listening to her.
You know I'm really sort oftaken aback and also just, but
you know, those are one of thosemoments where you feel like
this is valuable you know, likeI'm she's opening up.

(51:33):
You could cause she getsemotional, you know, and
truthful and honest.
Like you said, this issomething that she's been
holding onto for years and kindof needs to get off her chest.
And, um, you know, that was anincredible moment, um, and there
were, there were a ton of good.
You know a ton of incrediblemoments.
You know, gunner opening up.
You know, before the moment,before you know, what you see in

(51:57):
the film was.
I asked him about that momentwhen he's on one knee caressing
the face of a wounded Iraqisoldier, and he's just like.
He's like yeah, yeah, thebullets were flying blah, blah,
blah.
And I was like, I was like Iwas there and for me, when you
touch the face of that Iraqisoldier, I thought that was
grace on earth.
It blew me away, the kindness,the intimacy, how you know.

(52:21):
And he, then he gets real andhe looks down and he starts to
say, yeah, that's intimate,intimate connection.
You have another man and ithurts.
And he got really truthful andreal and he said he'd just never
really gone there before, um,and a couple of months after I'd
been there to visit him, he, he, he texted me and said look,
thank you for coming.
It really helped, really helpedme to open up and talk about

(52:42):
all these things.
So, you know, to me that's, youknow, that was just such, that
was such an incredible piece ofthe entire journey.
Yeah, looking back at them, youknow, in these moments, like
you said, we're kids.
You know, I look back and, joe,you know, some of these

(53:04):
conversations, I, you know, tosupport the conversations in the
modern day, we'd been talkingabout the war for 15 years.
We were talking about it whenhe was 19 and I'm 29.
And here we are, years laterand he is, like you said, a
seasoned senior soldier and I'msomebody who's now, you know,
I'm not the young, 28, 29 yearold in his dorm room anymore.

(53:26):
You know going around the desertagain yeah, I've been to the
desert, you know, and I would goagain.
I've gone three times actuallywent back to Baghdad again and.
I've been around the world andI'm like, yeah, uh, but you know
, so it's.
It was just so interesting tosee this, this, this, this theme
, this conversation, go throughall these years, you know.

Scott (53:51):
There was a moment when you asked pretty much that same
question to one of the veterans.
You said what is the momentthat you remember the most?
And he said right now.
Right now is the moment whichyour face was like.
I think your response was I'mnever at a loss of words, so

(54:16):
congratulations.

Jake (54:20):
Yeah, you know, we trim that real, we trim that response
down because I, you know it wasthat blew me away.
You know Chris basically sayingyou know, I asked him what's
his most memorable moment of thelast you know 20 years, what's
what's meant the most to him?
And he said this moment, righthere, right now.
It's nice to know that peoplestill care.
Yeah, you know, that's that'ssort of my entire mission behind

(54:43):
the entire film is to let vetsknow we still care, we, that's
sort of my entire mission behindthe entire film is to let vets
know we still care, we stillcare, care about you, we care
about what's going on with you,we care about what you did for
us and we want to be there foryou as you take your next
footsteps.
And Chris is such a great guy,such a beautiful, beautiful
person, and when he said that tome it just really knocked me

(55:05):
out.
You know, I really was at acomplete loss for words.
I didn't see that coming and Ithink it's really you know, if I
take a step back from it, it'sreally an important moment for
us as a society.
Like, how important is it forus if that's his favorite moment

(55:26):
, to know someone still cares tomake sure that our veterans
from the war on terror, some ofwhich deployed up to 13 times
that they know we still care.

Scott (55:37):
We care.
Yeah, and I noticed in thoseinterviews and I touched on it
before we came on the air One ofthem mentioned purpose.
They found their purpose, whichis not easy to find, and

(56:03):
especially somebody with PTSD ortraumatic brain injury, and
they're fighting through that.
That's their fight, that'stheir struggle.
But when they find theirpurpose, it changes everything.
Ptsd never goes away, traumaticbrain injury is never going to
go away.
But when you have purpose orbelonging, which they have, a
belonging that's each other andyou're part of that and the

(56:25):
connection, it makes adifference.
It makes a huge difference.
So the connection, how many ofthese uh, the 10, keep in touch?
Do you know?
Like, do they have reunions?
Or do they ever like, oh, I Italked to to joe and oh, I
haven't talked to him in years,like, how, how does that work

(56:46):
between them?
But they all were part of amovie.

Jake (56:49):
They, they have that, that thing in common, a big thing in
common two movies yeah, youknow, the gary sneeze foundation
was very, uh, generous and garysneeze himself said, you know,
when forrest gump came out hegot to see it first.
Yeah, you know, he had been.
He'd really, you know know,been very, you know, put himself
on the line there to doLieutenant Dan, and then they

(57:11):
shared it with the rest of thefilm the world.
So he was really grateful.
So he actually arranged forthem to all come to Nashville
see the headquarters of the GarySneese Foundation and then we
all watched the film privatelytogether there.
So that was wonderful.
They all got to see the filmbefore the rest of the world and
we went out and talkedafterwards and then they also
had an opportunity to go see itfor the world premiere.

(57:32):
It won best documentaryaudience choice award at the San
Diego international filmfestival.
So they all got to see that andwalk the red carpet and get
photos together and those wereboth such fun events and
experiences for them toreconnect.
Sometimes, for it was the firsttime they'd seen each other in
years, or maybe since sammy's uhfuneral one of one of the
soldiers I he died and so theyall went to his funeral.

(57:55):
So they'd seen each other then.
But it'd been years and I thinkum it.
You know I, I gained so so muchpersonally by reconnecting with
these folks and doing a littlebit of a reunion.
I learned, I mean I learnedfrom them, I grew from them.
I came into this film a littlebit broken.
I left it almost with a newpurpose myself and you know I, I

(58:18):
, I would, I would reallyencourage people to reconnect,
put together a reunion with thefolks they served overseas.
You know you said a couple ofreally important things.
You said connection, community.
you know and belonging andpurpose, purpose, right.
So one of the things of whenyou're processing post-traumatic
stress, you got to lean into it, process it, talk about these

(58:41):
experiences with someone thatyou trust, and maybe even a
professional to kind of help you.
You know, really unpacksomething.
That's one thing and thatrelieves pressure, but another
thing and where the real giftcomes from is when you start to
cast the blinds into the futureand you start thinking about
what would I like to do next,what would be a fun thing to do,
like my case, go to Disneylandwith my kids.
Or go camp out on my brother'snew land and let my you know the

(59:05):
cousins all play with eachother and sit around the
campfire.
You know, whatever that is,these things are what really
transform your life and give ita new purpose, a new value.
But purpose is something reallyimportant.
Sometimes vets and this is runsthroughout the film Even even
Ben gives us advice at the end.
You know, sometimes veterans gowell, well, I'm an infantry

(59:28):
trained guy, I'll go do security.
Hey, if you want to do securityand that's what lights your
fire you do it.
A third of the police officersin this country are veterans.
A lot of the firefighters areGreat.
If that's what gets you up inthe morning and you want to
continue on, go do that.
But don't do it if it's thepath of least resistance and
your heart is taking yousomewhere else.
One thing I've learned fromthis project is and it's the

(59:52):
advice I give to veterans iswhat do you want to do Inside
your heart?
What do you really want to do?
And making this film made me abetter brother for my own
brothers, because in the filmthey're sort of at the end of
the road.
One's a master sergeant, one'sa lieutenant colonel.
He's not going to make colonel,he reveals.
And so when it came time forthem to figure out what's next
with Joe, I said get a piece ofpaper out and write down one to

(01:00:15):
ten, what do you want to do?
And if he hadn't have done that, he would have gone to seven
and been unhappy because it wasthe easiest path.
Klaus will get them over therein, you know, doing the personal
finance thing.
No One I want to be aninvestment banker.
Well, I can't move to New Yorkbecause your wife's at Duke for
nursing.
Number two private equity.
Maybe if you could move toChicago, but you really got to

(01:00:36):
do commercial lending.
First Number three, commerciallending.
By God, he got a job incommercial lending.
He loved it.
He's got an MBA, he thinks it'sinteresting and he got promoted
recently.
He's a relationship banker.

Scott (01:00:48):
He got a promotion.

Jake (01:00:49):
He's a vice president now, for god's sakes, okay, joe, joe
the guy three syllables is outthere representing the biggest
bank in tennessee.
Now I mean, are you kidding me?
He's analyzing businessspreadsheets, this kid.
So you know who knew, you knowlike and he likes it, he likes
it.
So it's.
It's, that's the thing.

(01:01:09):
And with isaac I was like youknow he could have gone anywhere
.
He was getting offers to runsecurity for small countries I
was thinking of that when hesaid he didn't get his promotion
and that's it.

Scott (01:01:18):
I was like oh he's corporate america are you
kidding me?
He's got his mba.
He's got you write his ticketanywhere.

Jake (01:01:25):
Could you know what he's doing?
Because I said to him I said,isaac, what makes you happy?
Tell me what makes you happy.
He likes being outdoors.
He likes it's not for me.
I mean I'll go do it if youneed help, but it's not what I
want to do every day.
But he loves it.
So he started his own business.

(01:01:47):
He's doing forestry management,he's doing landscaping, he's
building fences, you name it.
He's got and I mean this guy'sgot like power tools you
wouldn't believe.
I mean he's got like abulldozer.
He's got all kinds of crazystuff, you know and he's happier
than a pig and shit.
You know he's out there, youknow plowing through land and
he's, he's overjoyed.
And the point is that's whatmakes him happy.

(01:02:09):
He likes being outside, helikes transforming the earth
he's, and so he started abusiness to do it.
He he'd been taking orders forfor two decades.
He wanted to be his own bossand he's thriving.
He's thriving.
He's like backed up.
You know, he found a niche incharlottesville.
His his final job in themilitary he was he ran rotzi for
the University of VirginiaLiberty University.
So he probably trained a couplethousand first lieutenants in

(01:02:32):
the military, passing on decadesof experience, and then loved
the area so they decided to staythere.
Jenny got her degree in nursing, so she's a nurse at the
University of Virginia Hospitaland he's out there doing all of
projects in that area with hisbusiness.
And and then he and Joe Joesays at the end of the film he
has a dream uh, to raise grapesand wine.

(01:02:56):
So guess what?
He, isaac and Klaus bought a400 acres just outside of
Charlottesville in Virginia and16 of those acres are perfect
for growing vines.
Wow, and that's where they.
They're going to have threehouses out there.
They want their kids to be ableto grow up and play with one
another that's awesome.

Scott (01:03:18):
Yeah, um, couple things you mentioned.
Uh, we were talking aboutpurpose and I and I I just so
I'm I'm 61.
I turned 61 last december andit dawned on me that two things
have happened in my life.
At 20, I found my calling, andmy calling was working with dogs

(01:03:41):
10 years in the air forcesecurity police, 22 years us
customs and border protection inmi and Fort Lauderdale.
Working a drug dog,anti-terrorism, anti-smuggling.
That was my calling.
A lot of people confuse the two.
They think it's the same thing.
At 60, I found my purpose.

(01:04:01):
My purpose is to help veteransand it's been an amazing journey
already In the one year thatI've nonprofits and just being
in the veteran space and seeingeverything that I see and
talking and helping and justdoing as much as I can.
That's my for the rest of mylife.

(01:04:22):
That's my purpose in life is to, and I was fortunate enough to
retire in 2019.
So to find my calling at 20 andmy purpose at 60 was quite like
.
I took a step back and lookedat everything.
I said this is amazing.
I had enough self-awareness tounderstand that, that I am a

(01:04:44):
blessed man to be able to dothat and find that and veterans
has been it and you also saidreunions.
So from 87 to 89 my first basewas clock air force base in the
philippines.
Now I was in it was not awartime environment but that was
the hottest spot in the wholedod.
They killed some Americansoutside base.

(01:05:04):
So we were in a threat conbravo, as they said constantly,
six days on, one day off, k-9only went out at night.
It really became a brotherhood.
So as we all moved on for thelast, I think, 27 years, at
least 10 of us a year gettogether and we stay in and we

(01:05:28):
get together.
And one of the veteransmentioned this he mentioned
during your movie said somethingabout you will never find a
better person than the personyou were stationed with.
Or he said some of the bestpeople I met were the people I
was stationed with Got.
He said some of the best peopleI met were the people I was
stationed with Got out, workedin the civilian world and I wish

(01:05:51):
I remembered his exact wording.
But he was absolutely 100%correct and that's why we get
together every year and we dogeach other every year and we
tell the same stories every year.
We're all in our late 50s,early 60s telling the same
stories, but we still do storiesevery year.
We're all in our late 50s,early 60s telling the same
stories, but we still do itevery year.
And it's a and the older we get,the more we really start to

(01:06:11):
appreciate it.
So you're right, those arevaluable, valuable moments,
those three days but it feelslike 10 sometimes, uh, that you
get together with those guys andwomen that you bonded with when
you were just a kid, right,that's very important, I think,
and I think military membersshould have more.

(01:06:34):
But I noticed one thing whenyou're overseas, you build a
bond.
People that are statesidemilitary it could be the Air
Force Army military it could bethe air force army they they
don't have as big a bond as youdo.
When you're overseas and you'reserving overseas and you're
over there for a year, two years, three years or you know

(01:06:58):
whatever situation you're instateside, I never see that.
Now I could be wrong, butthere's something about being in
a foreign country with yourfriends who you can't stand that
guy.
But as you get older you'relike, I kind of like him.

Jake (01:07:15):
I like that person.

Scott (01:07:19):
And it rang true in our little reunion thing.
So I want to ask you one lastquestion, and I hope I'm not
being too personal.
So you're the guy at the otherend of the microphone, you're
the guy that's out there talkingto these people and seeing it

(01:07:41):
and just being the sponge for it, right it?
And just being the sponge forit, right?
How has it affected your mentalhealth, being with those people
and then seeing them?
You've seen it, all you know.
But you you've watched thesekids grow up and you've and
you've grown up and you've seenthe trauma and the and the

(01:08:02):
troubles and the.
You've seen the trauma and thetroubles.
You've seen the worst of it andyou've seen the best of it.
How has it affected you?
I'm just going to say it.
That's almost prime territoryfor PTSD in itself and again, I
hope I'm not being too personalwith this, but I just thought

(01:08:23):
about that.
I'm like you have to be thereand just listen.
Right Now I don't know whatgoes on behind the.
You know when the camera's notrolling, but I can't think that
it's that much different.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Jake (01:08:39):
Yeah, no, it's a great question, I think.
You know.
You said calling and purpose.
You know the calling for me wasbeing a storyteller.
The purpose really came throughwith this project, the purpose
of telling the story of thesefolks on the front lines so that
people at home could learn moreabout them in their living
rooms.
The purpose became using thisas a conduit for them to open up
and talk to themselves and talkto each other.

(01:09:02):
And you know, look, when I wasin Iraq, I had bullets going
across the lens of my camera.
I had, you know, I was filmingpeople that had tragically
wounded, you know, jaws messedup and legs messed up.
And a week later I was inBeverly Hills.
You know, talk about a cultureshock.
And what helped me was I had towatch my own combat footage.
And so that night I hadnightmares and my brain did

(01:09:24):
loop-de-loops and my I talked to.
I you know two.
A couple of things helped me.
I journaled.
That's why I teach journalingto vets.
Yeah, uh, my brother, isaac,called me, said you know how's
it going?
Isaac had obviously been in adecent amount of combat and so
he talked me through that.
And he talked to me.
You know I said yeah, I went togo see that movie about snipers
, yeah.

Scott (01:09:43):
That wasn't a good idea.

Jake (01:09:44):
Too much stimulation too soon.
You know, I was like, yeah,that was really messed up.
I was out with snipers, I'mwatching a movie.
That's too much, too soon.
Um, you know, he just talked methrough the hyper, the hyper
vigilance, all the things toexpect, um, and so that was
super helpful to know.
Like this is normal.
Um, the other thing I did was Ihad to talk to people who were

(01:10:04):
not veterans my producingpartner, my editor and explain
to them what was going on inIraq.
I had to talk through all ofthis experience and it was
difficult, but it forced me tocommunicate and I didn't know it
then, but I was processing myexperiences.
So that was one part.
Other thing you asked is abouttalking to them about these hard
stories, them about these hardstories.

(01:10:30):
I have learned since making thefilm that asking you about the
toughest moment in your lifewhich I need to do as a
storyteller In the moment youcan be in pain, in the moment
you can cry, in the moment youcan open up about this thing and
it can be a little traumaticfor you and for me.
But I'm also, I know now,helping you make sense of that.

(01:10:50):
I'm helping you tell your storyand I've had the blessing to
work with.
You know, the very firstworkshop I did, dr Scott
Williams was there.
He was a psychiatrist for thebig red one and just come back
Now he's running research atWalter Reed, and three of my
trainers that are veterans twoof them have doctorates of
social work.
I have a psych D that's workingwith me.
So now the blessing of the GarySinise Foundation started to

(01:11:12):
sponsor all these workshops in2019 was they wanted me to build
a team around myself, and so myteam has got the doctorates and
the psych Ds and all that, andso I've learned during the
course of doing this some thingsI can do, and so I've learned

(01:11:39):
during the course of doing thissome things I can do.
So if a veteran opens up aboutsomething, you might hear part
of that story in the of it, orgive them some advice or talk
about next steps they can take.
Do you know what I mean?
And oftentimes that doesn'tmake the film, but I just feel
like that.
That.
That is sort of part of my duty, you know, and then it makes me
feel good.

(01:11:59):
It helps, like you said aboutpurpose, if, if I know that
someone opening up and themgetting a little bit emotional,
while it might hurt my heart alittle bit in the moment to hear
it, but if I know this isactually really helpful for them
, then it can change how I takethat in.

(01:12:20):
And so, as a filmmaker as I'vebeen doing this for a couple of
decades, as I've gotten to thisphase of it, I know how to be
helpful.
I know how to record the momentfor the film and have them tell
their story, but I know thatcan also be a part of their
healing and then kind of how totalk through that with them a
little bit more afterwards.
So that's helped a lot.

(01:12:41):
But the second part of it isI've been doing these seminars
and workshops and there was atime in 2011 and 2012 where I
was just every week working withthousands of soldiers and
Marines and airmen, peoplecoming back talking about the
trauma, and it was starting toaffect me.

(01:13:01):
I was probably getting whatthey call, you know, secondary
post-traumatic stress or, youknow, caregivers fatigue, and I
talked to a chaplain and he saidyou know I was like how are you
doing this?
Like how do you do this, how doyou do this?
I mean, I'm like I'm getting,like I'm getting chewed up here.
I want to help.
I love these guys, but it's youknow, it's affecting me and you

(01:13:22):
know he said look, I remember acouple of things.
It's their trauma, it's notmine, so I don't need to absorb
that for them.
That doesn't help them.
What they need is me to listenand to be there and maybe if you
have a piece of insight, youcan offer it.
But them being there for themto talk, let them.
It's theirs.
So that sort of helps, so thatsort of helps.

(01:13:44):
Secondly, he said I try to plansomething that I really am going
to look forward to.
You know, after working with abunch of vets or talking about
so maybe it's going to dinnerwith my lady.
So I do that.
Now I have things I lookforward to.
I'll go and work with a unitthat's been hard hit or they've
had a few suicides.
We go in, we know we're makinga difference, so I know we're
there to help, we're there tomake sense of it right.

(01:14:11):
So, as people unpack thesethings and it's a tremendous
honor to have someone talk aboutsomething they're struggling
with you know and hold space forthem and to listen and let them
know hey, I got you, we're good, it's okay, I can handle it.
And to have them kind of walkthrough that, but then also to
be able to offer them something,some insight, a way to process
it, a way to take a step forward, is of incredible value.
And when you, when you're, whenyou're living that purpose, it

(01:14:32):
reframes how you're a conduitfor that.
And then for the final thingI'll just say is, ironically,
you know, I had this incrediblydifficult international custody
battle for my own children right, which lasted about two years,
wiped me out and, interestinglyenough, everything I teach in
the workshop, some of the thingswe've been talking about here
today communication, communityjournaling that's how I

(01:14:58):
processed everything I wentthrough over, or that's how I
processed the death of mybrother, the death of my brother
.
But I actually needed sometherapy for, um, you know, that
international custody battle formy children, which had a happy
ending.
My kids are here.
I dropped them off at schoolthis morning.
I in quotes one no one wins ina divorce.
Just try to survive and get toa point where you can, you can

(01:15:19):
move on.
Uh, but, like you know, it hada happy ending.
But I actually had to go talk toa therapist and kind of unpack
some of that stuff because Ididn't have time to process it
at the time and so I just wantto share that with your
listeners.
That, like, the purpose oftherapy is to go back in time
and maybe something you didn'thave time to unpack in the
moment it can get put in thefiling cabinet a little left up

(01:15:40):
and you got to go pull it outand then sometimes you work
through with a pro.
But the purpose of that is, youknow they can sort of untangle
that you might have learned, youmight have affected your belief
system a little, and as youunpack that it's changed my life
.
Now I've got a wonderful womanin my life.
She's actually a mastersergeant in the Air Force, so
she keeps me on my P's and Q's,let me tell you.
But she's a wonderful person.

(01:16:03):
No, I'm in a whole new phase inmy life and I'm able to then
share some of those insights andthings with our veterans and
their families, and so I justshare that with everybody that's
listening, because you neverknow what experience it is
that's just going to get caughtin your subconscious a little
sideways, and don't be afraid togo.

(01:16:23):
And here's the other thing is,you've got to find someone you
trust, someone that you haverapport with and someone who
maybe is has a specialty thatdovetails with the thing you
need to kind of unravel and notyou unravel.
And so that's also circling backto your original question.
Have you know uh, you know myown psyche that once in a while

(01:16:44):
if somebody brings something upin an interview or some in a
seminar or workshop or I get acurve ball, I can turn to her
and say, hey, this came up and Iwant to talk about it, maybe to
relieve a little pressure orstress internally, but also so
that I'm there to best servesomeone if it comes up again.
And that's something to thinkabout.
If you work on this, if youhold space for people, if you

(01:17:06):
learn things that can help,that's a muscle that grows, and
the next time you're in thatsituation you're better prepared
to handle it, you're betterprepared to help them through it
.
And Gary Sneese said somethingto me.
He said maybe the way to heal abroken heart is to help someone
else.

Scott (01:17:26):
Yeah, that's a great way to end this conversation.
Absolutely Makes all the sensein the world.
Yes, do you have anything inthe works right now, anything in
the future, any more brilliantdocumentaries coming up, or are
you just kind of?

Jake (01:17:47):
you know I I am working on a couple of projects.
You know, making this film,like you said, about calling,
really reaffirmed for me thatit's a calling and it's
something I really enjoyed, eveneven the difficult parts, and I
really love the storytelling.
I love seeing an audienceresponse, I love the
conversations it starts.
Uh, it's a huge challenge butit's a lot of fun, and so I do
have probably about threeprojects in the in the mix right

(01:18:10):
now that I'm kind of developingand writing.
What one is?
You know?
Just crazy sitcom idea.
One of my story editors came tome with another is uh, looking
at uh pows from vietnam.
Um, I've got the life rights to, to someone that I've been
working with him, which has beenan incredible opportunity and
journey for growth.
Um, and then I may make a filmabout my, my, my, you know,

(01:18:31):
international custody battle,because I think there's there's
some lessons in there, uh, thatI learned and that others could
learn.
Um, you know, especially menand the importance of fatherhood
and and holding onto that andand and fighting for that
sometimes to make sure that youstay in your children's lives
and that you know so much Ithink of your meaning as a man,

(01:18:52):
as a father is through beingable to pass on those lessons to
the next generation and bethere for them and be a resource
for them.
And mothers absolutely have animportant role, but fathers do
as well.
So I think there's something toexplore there absolutely have
an important role, but fathersdo as well.
So I think there's a there'ssomething to explore there.
I think something that I'm kindof finding in my work that I
want to carry forward with is Ireally want my films and my
storytelling to be, you know,have an element of helping other

(01:19:14):
people have, an element of themlearning something that they
can apply to their own lives.
Um, you know, what immediatelyis happening is brothers after
wars being released.
We're, we're, we're, you know.
So it's, it's super exciting.
People can watch it in theirown homes, they can share it
with others.
We also are kicking off animpact campaign.
So we're about to set off on ajourney We've already set off,

(01:19:35):
in fact on a journey where Garysneeze foundation is sponsoring
40 workshops and seminars aroundthe country this year.
If you're interested in that,shoot us an email info
brothersafterwarcom or you cancome online and let us know
you're interested in coming toyour city or see where it's
coming.
Uh, we did the very first oneof those uh for the dav.
So california dv one of mytrainers, noel apana, received

(01:19:58):
the disabled veteran of the yearaward for his service to his
fellow brothers and sisters andthen he and I uh shared the
movie with about 200 DAV membersand their families.
And then we did the two-hourseminar, the journaling, the
group discussion.
We had guys say it's the secondtime I've ever shared this and

(01:20:18):
it's like what.
In this moment.
This is the second time you'veever shared this.
And then there was one guy whoopened up and his brother was in
Vietnam.
It was just incredible.
And then some of them couldn'thelp themselves, like in the
middle of the seminar which isabout them, they'd ask me
questions about the film.
They'd be like Jake, I lovedBrothers After War.
I loved the film.
Can I ask you a question aboutit?

(01:20:39):
Or you know what?

Scott (01:20:40):
I mean.

Jake (01:20:47):
I'd be like sure, okay, Sure, Let me answer your
question.
Okay, now let's get back to theconversation about you.
I was so touched by that, Scott, I was like you know.
I must have done somethingright.
It's a great film.

Scott (01:20:56):
It's a great film.
It really is.
It really is.
It was very well done, jake.
It helped me.
It helped me.
I learned a couple of things inthere how to process things,
and I paid attention to some ofthe veterans and it helped me.
I'm not just saying thatbecause again, you're right in
front of me.
I'm not that kind of person.
It helped me.

(01:21:16):
It's a great film.
I am going to promote the hellout of it in South Florida and
all the veterans that I know andthe nonprofits that I know.
I am definitely going to do mybest to to to push that.
Well, I will push that.
That is my best right.

(01:21:36):
Um, jake, thank you very muchfor coming on a fascinating,
amazing movie.
I can't wait to watch the firstone.
Like I said, although it wascut back, you know and forth,
and it filled in the blanks.
Um, as we talked about before,I'm going to watch it.
Now I have an idea and now I'mgoing to watch it in a totally
different perspective of knowingthe outcome of these things.
So I look forward to that.
Jake, if there's anything I canever do for you in South

(01:22:00):
Florida, please reach out to mevia my email.
I can't thank you enough forcoming on.
This was a great, greatinterview, great conversation.
You are a great big brother andyour brothers are blessed to
have you as their big brother,and I don't know what else to
say after that.
That's the greatest complimentI could ever give you You're a

(01:22:23):
great big brother and that's.
That's a.
That's a lot.
There's a lot of brothers outthere that aren't so great, but
with with that, uh, stick around, I'm going to do the outro and
then I'll talk to you for asecond afterwards.
So well, there you go.
We built another bridge today.
Uh, this one was a very, very,uh, uh, interesting, uh and and

(01:22:47):
uh, and.
Just, you got to watch the film.
You got to see the movieBrothers After War.
Watch Brothers at War when youcan, and I highly suggest it.
And well, I don't even knowwhat to say.
I'm going to quote Jake fromhis own movie.
I don't even know what to say.
I'm going to quote Jake fromhis own movie, and I'm usually

(01:23:08):
not speechless, butcongratulations, jake.
And with that I will seeeverybody and you'll hear me
next week.

All Episodes

Ep. 53 - Film Director/Documentarian Jake Rademacher Talks About His Latest Documentary: Brothers After War. The Follow Up to His 2009 Award Winning Documentary: Brothers At war

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

All Episodes

Stuff You Should Know