June 27, 2022 • 38 mins
In episode 118, host Eric Dickmann talks with Brett Schklar - Managing Partner of Grow Powerful, a company focused on matching fractional CMOs with venture capital-backed B2B tech companies. Brett is a proven growth strategist who uses a powerful combination of brand building, storytelling, lead generation, and marketing execution to help emerging companies find their paths to growth and uncover demand for innovative technologies and approaches.
Grow Powerful brings growth strategies to its clients by leveraging a collective of top marketing professionals with industry expertise to deliver marketing, and revenue/growth leadership, and by creating measurable campaigns to meet rising revenue targets.
Brett Schklar also hosts the Grow Up with GROW podcast.
For more information and access to the resources mentioned in this episode, visit: https://fiveechelon.com/hire-an-icmo-business-s8ep5/
A fractional CMO can help build out a comprehensive marketing strategy and execute targeted campaigns designed to increase awareness and generate demand for your business...without the expense of a full-time hire.
The Five Echelon Group - Fractional CMO and strategic marketing advisory services designed for SMBs looking to grow. Learn more at:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Dickmann (00:01):
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
In this podcast, we haveconversations with marketing
professionals who share thestrategies, tactics, and mindset
you can use to improve theeffectiveness of your marketing
activities and grow yourbusiness.
Today, I'm excited to have guestBrett Schklar on the program.
(00:22):
Brett is the Co-founder andManaging Partner at Grow
Powerful, an online platformthat is assembling marketing
professionals focused on B2Btech who can deliver expertise
by serving as Fractional CMOsBrett, welcome to the program.
Brett Schlar (00:36):
Thanks, Eric.
Glad to be here.
Eric Dickmann (00:38):
I'm really excited to have this
conversation with you todaybecause as a Fractional CMO
myself and having a podcastwhere we focus on a lot of
Fractional CMO issues, thistopic is obviously very near and
dear to my heart.
And before we sort of dive intothe details of what you're doing
there at Grow Powerful.
If you would just give me anexpanded background.
What is your career history?
(00:59):
How did you get to this pointand starting up Grow Powerful?
Brett Schlar (01:02):
Like many it's a half, about 50% intentional, and
50% accidental way of getting towhere I am today.
I grew up in almost exclusivelyB2B technology, early stage
software companies, telecom,rose up through the ranks
between sales and marketing backto sales, back to marketing, and
(01:25):
really enjoyed that.
Had some great start-upexperience with a couple of
different companies of which hadexited.
And it was great to ride thattrain, and then about 17 years
ago, 18 years ago, actually, Ihad some health events that made
me just reconsider what I wasdoing.
And these health issues wererelated to my heart, I had some
(01:49):
problems with my heart, which isfine now, but it made me realize
that I literally couldn't put myheart into something that I was
doing before.
And I decided that I needed todo something different.
And I started a company, adifferent company called Market
Creation Group, and my goal wasto work part time, to do some
(02:11):
consulting, to have some funwound up growing it to about 20
people, fantastic revenues, andgoing from the idea of working
20 hours a week to actuallyworking significantly more.
However, I really enjoyed it.
About five years ago, I soldthat company to a private equity
(02:32):
firm and it was an agency thatwas focused on B2B technology.
So it was a really good matchup.
And then I decided, you knowwhat?
My health is fine, my family isfine, I'm going to go back to
work for a company where I don'thave to worry about running a
business or chasing after thebusiness or things like that.
(02:53):
And it took about nine monthsfor me to realize that I really
make a crappy employee.
And I had a graceful exit fromthat company, but it was very
obvious that the companyhonestly, is no longer there.
I don't think I did a great jobof picking the company.
(03:13):
I also just realized that wasnot a good employee at the end
of the day.
And so myself and a couple ofpartners, people that were
actually my customers who wereChief Marketing Officers
operationally in companies thatwere my clients, we decided to
get together and to buildsomething to really support the
Fractional CMO or the VirtualCMO model.
(03:35):
And so we started Grow about 20months ago now and we've had
phenomenal, phenomenal successso far.
Eric Dickmann (03:44):
It's always fun to hear about people's career
paths and the industries thatthey've touched on and the jobs
that they've worked in, and yourarely hear an entrepreneur that
has a straight line.
Usually there's some zigzags inthere, some restarts, some
pivots.
So your story is interesting inthat respect.
And one thing I would love foryou to comment on is, you know,
we die right into the topic ofFractional CMO, but really this
(04:06):
is a relatively new concept.
I'm always amazed how manypeople I get into conversations
with, and they've never evenheard the term.
And there are variationsfloating around virtual CMO,
iCMO, on demand CMO, cetera.
And there are an awful lot ofpeople who call themselves
consultants, but are reallydoing that role.
And I often tell people, CMO isreally a Fortune 500 title,
(04:29):
right?
It's not common in smallerbusinesses, but it's a concept
really.
A fractional CMO is a concept.
How would you describe it?
Brett Schlar (04:37):
You're spot on.
I mean, you're seeing the samething that I am, which is you
know, the concept is essentiallya form of consulting, but it
might be a little bit more of aspecific niche of consulting.
You know, we work with emergingcompanies anywhere from$2
million to let's say$250million, they're typically VC
(04:58):
backed or private equity backed.
Most of our business comesthrough the VC or private equity
channels, they bring us in toconnect with their portfolio
companies.
My philosophy is pretty simple.
I don't think any company that'sless than a billion dollars
needs a real CMO.
Just going to put that outthere.
(05:18):
And I think they need somebodythat has the entire front, you
know?
The cash register side of thebusiness, AKA a Chief Revenue
Officer.
I think that the idea of theChief Customer Officer is
becoming more and more popular.
And I really love that.
And that really means thatthere's not room for a Chief
Marketing Officer or a ChiefMarket Officer.
(05:42):
And so it's not that the CMO isbeing squeezed out, is that the
idea of a CMO was somethingpeople thought they really
needed, but at the end of theday, they do need, but they
don't necessarily need it as afunction of the executive team
as a full-time person.
It's more of someone to be amarketing and market consigliere
(06:05):
to the CEO and to have thecustomer be the CEO, the CRO,
and in some cases, the ChiefCustomer Officer.
And when that's in place, youdefinitely need a marketing
team, right?
You need people to understanddigital marketing, understand
the product really well,understand content, I think that
every content marketing personneeds to also know how to
(06:28):
produce shows like what we'redoing here.
I don't think there's a placefor a full-time Chief marketing
Officer.
And so I think that's why we'refinding the Virtual CMO, the
Fractional CMO, the ICMObecoming much more popular and
being much more focused than theconsultant, which in some cases
(06:49):
is a good word, and some casesis a bad word as well.
Eric Dickmann (06:55):
Yeah.
Consulting has a mixedreputation, right?
Especially, for larger companieswho work with some of the big
firms.
You know, it's almost like arash that you can't get rid of.
You get consultants into some ofthese organizations and they
just never go away.
But I think you're exactlyright.
There are a lot of people outthere that are doing similar
things to what a Fractional CMOdoes, they just don't
necessarily call themselvesthat.
(07:16):
And having guests on the showand talking about this a lot,
It's pretty well understood thatthis whole fractional model kind
of started out in the CFO'soffice, right?
That's really where it got itsfooting.
And now we're seeing it expandout, not just for fractional
CMOs, but we're seeingfractional anything in the
C-suite.
Do you think that period of timethat we're in, especially
(07:37):
considering you know, economicfactors and certainly COVID that
we've gone through, do you thinkthat's helped or hurt the model?
Brett Schlar (07:45):
So I think that this is the springboard for the
model.
I think you've got, the RNR,you've got the Great
Resignation, and you've got thewhat nobody is actually saying
is officially happening, butwe're all talking about it's
kind of like the weird unclethat comes to the weddings or
the Bar Mitzvahs or thefunerals.
(08:06):
You know, we don't talk aboutthat weird uncle, but we'll call
him Uncle Recession.
And you know, we're in denial ofthat fact.
But I think that between thosetwo things, The Great
Resignation, which really hasbeen and should be hitting those
CMOs really hard, for goodreasons, not bad reasons.
(08:29):
It is hard, especially as a B2Btechnology, as a business to
business technology, focusedChief Marketing Officer, in very
few cases, you're set up forsuccess, in most cases, you're
set up for failure.
And there's a hundred reasonswhy, and if you'd like to, we
can dive into the 116 reasonswhy current CMOs and B2B
technology are set up forfailure, but they are.
Eric Dickmann (08:50):
Hmm
Brett Schlar (08:51):
And there's a few that are successful, but it's
it's got an entire organizationbehind it.
And so you've got the greatresignation, which means people
are re-evaluating theirsatisfaction, their joy out of
the job.
You've got as of a few yearsago, the average lifespan of a
head of marketing in a B2Btechnology company was 19 months
(09:14):
now.
There's no official data, butit's closer.
But what I had been hearing andthrough anecdotal conversations
closer to the 17 months, soyou're already kind of treated
as a virtual or a fractionalanyway.
And then, you know, on top ofthat, we've got, you know,
people needing to cut budgetsaggressively Every week, I'm on
(09:38):
a group call with severalhundred Chief Marketing Officers
in B2B technology.
And every Friday morning, we gettogether and we talk.
And the last few weeks I was inthe last three weeks, it's gone
from, you know, excitement,optimism, getting back to
events, finding that ROI and theevents to now the conversation
is, Okay, my board is asking mefor a plan B for a scenario, you
(10:01):
know, map of letting go of halfof the marketing team or letting
go of everybody except for a fewcore people or hunkering down,
and how does it look to getoutside help versus inside help?
So that's a very long-winded wayto say, Eric.
This is the time that we cansolidify, rationalize and
(10:24):
amplify the value of afractional, virtual, or ICMO.
Eric Dickmann (10:30):
I couldn't agree more.
I would just add to that, thatduring COVID, people got used to
remote work.
I mean, this is pretty clear,right?
Companies are really strugglinggetting people back into the
office, but there was a broaderacceptance that remote work is
okay.
And I think there was alwayssome hesitation in the C-suite
or in the executive suite tosay, well, we don't want to have
a remote executive.
(10:50):
You know, they need to be hereto see if people are sitting in
their cubicles, right?
You know, but now I think thatthat's changed.
Have you seen that as well?
Brett Schlar (10:57):
I sort of seen a split.
And so I would say more timesthan not the companies that are
really trying to be employeefocused.
Yes, it is very much that wayand there's a lot more
flexibility and companies areadopting more of an asynchronous
(11:18):
communication model versussynchronous.
I'm also seeing companies whoare mandating coming back to the
office, whether it's two days aweek, three days a week, or
whatever.
And the feedback as I go to theoffice, cause I have to, and I
wound up being on Zoom callswith half the people anyway.
So I'm doing the same thing thatI was doing at home.
(11:40):
It's just in the office and youknow, it's a little bit chaotic.
So I think that most companiesare embracing that idea of
flexible, fractional, butvirtual, as far as you know, not
being in person, and reallydoubling down on what does
(12:01):
asynchronous productivity looklike?
We're doing it, I mean, we'vegot an office, but everybody
that we have except for oneperson is in some other state
than Colorado.
As a business owner, it's alittle bit complicated because
instead of mastering the art ofColorado employment, I now have
(12:25):
to, you know,, my CPA tells me,here are certain states that are
good to find people and certainstates they're not good to find
people.
And I try not to use that as adecision on where to find
people, but it's a benefitbecause I now have, you know, 50
states and maybe other countriesas well, we're not there yet,
(12:45):
but you know, 50 states at leastto where I can find talent
versus being limited to peoplewithin a 20, 30, 40 mile commute
radius.
Eric Dickmann (12:58):
Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to
the podcast.
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marketing to the next level?
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(13:18):
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schedule a consultation, go tofiveechelon.com and click on
(13:41):
Services.
Now back to the podcast.
So you talk a lot about workingwith VC and then bringing you in
as a fractional CMO and VCs havea real benefit, right?
They're mentors to many of thesecompanies, right?
They have templates, they knowwhat works, they know when
people need to come into abusiness at what particular
stage, but for companies thatdon't have that support that
(14:03):
don't have that sort ofmentoring, I think oftentimes
it's very unclear when they needto bring in marketing help.
Have you found that as well?
Brett Schlar (14:13):
Yes.
Especially technology focusedcompanies.
If they don't have it.
And by the way, there's a lot offorms of mentorship, there's the
VCs, there's a private equity,there's also, you know, non-VC
oriented board members, forcompanies that don't have that
(14:36):
level of financial or boardlevel support, there's a lot of
great organizations such as EOentrepreneurs, organization,
YPO, Vistige that offer levelsof support.
But what I find in B2Btechnology companies where
you've got the founder that isthe technology guru is a strong
(15:02):
resistance to the idea ofmarketing and almost a theory
that marketing is a shortcut ifyour product isn't good enough,
and a sense that my product isso good, it should sell itself.
Eric Dickmann (15:16):
I've heard this before
Brett Schlar (15:17):
There is a concept of product led growth, and I'm
sure you've probably talkedabout this on your show, but the
concept of product led growth isgreat and there's probably 1 to
2% of technology companies thatare actually doing that.
Then you've got the other 80%that are talking the product led
(15:38):
growth message, but they may notactually have a true product led
growth or strategy or real planin place.
so you know, trying to get outof the buzzwords of things, but
yes, if there is not really goodmentorship in place with a CEO,
(16:01):
there tends to be a resistance.
And honestly, for me,personally, there are a ton of
technology companies that Iwould love to work with, but if
they don't understand thenetwork effects and the
amplification, and the economiesof scale you can get with a
strong marketing program and astrong growth program.
(16:22):
I'm not going to have a lot ofsuccess with them as a customer,
and I need to go, you know, I'llwalk the other way.
Eric Dickmann (16:28):
It seems like with many of these product led
companies and the great productthat they've developed, what I
often see, and I'll beinterested to hear your feedback
on this is that when I look atthe product, it's really a
variation of something else thatexists.
It's not that often thatsomething truly revolutionary
comes along.
(16:48):
I just finished watching thekeynote at Apple's development
conference, you know, the mostvaluable company in the world.
And there really wasn't anythingnew, it was all incremental.
Improvements, which yes, thoseare new things, but they were
incremental improvements.
There wasn't that brand newthing that nobody's ever heard
of before.
And I think when I see so manyproduct led companies that think
(17:10):
the product is going to sellitself, they kind of forget that
they're competing with manyother things that are very
similar.
Brett Schlar (17:16):
So I did watch the WWDC.
I love more from a presentationstyle and to understand
Eric Dickmann (17:23):
They're fantastic, right?
Brett Schlar (17:25):
Just as much as, and they are fantastic.
I think they're going as theyare doing more virtual, as
they're doing less live isbecoming a little bit over the
top if you will.
But the interesting thing isright before that I read a book
and I forgot the name of it andthe author.But I think it was
called like beyond Steve orAfter Steve.
(17:48):
And it was the story of what'sApple like in a post Steve jobs
and Johnny Ive world.
And the innovation may not bethere like it was before because
Tim Cook has operationalexcellence, but he's not a
product visionary.
And so to your point, you know,and now they don't just have
(18:13):
product led growth, they haveecosystem led growth, right?
So the products create anecosystem, that ecosystem
creates, you know, variations ofproducts, but they're moving
towards a services business justas much as they are a product
business, and you can see it inwhere the revenue comes from.
And so they are really doing themost to become an ecosystem led
(18:37):
growth or a services led growthcompany, just as much, if not
more than a product led growthcompany.
Eric Dickmann (18:44):
Yeah, it's interesting to take such a big
ship and steer it, right?
Because they've got so muchgoing on.
It's not easy to move somelevers anymore, but I think that
this whole idea of innovation isreally interesting.
And I'm curious when you engagewith new clients, what do you
see as the number one problemthat they are coming to you for
(19:07):
to solve?
So what is it that theyunderstand they don't have a
marketing strategy and say, nowis the time we need to build
that marketing strategy.
Are they stagnating in somearea?
Is it usually because of aproblem or because they're
proactive and saying, we need tostart to prepare for our
marketing strategy so that wecan grow?
Brett Schlar (19:26):
Yeah.
There's a lot of different waysto explain what people need, but
the reality is there's tworeasons why people engage with
us.
Number one, they are gettingthere.
They're finding their productmarket fit really well.
(19:46):
And they're ready to double downon the growth, which means
taking what's working andamplifying it.
And in that scenario, we are agreat fit, we help find, we
test, we help measure and wehelp expand, expand, expand.
And then once we figured out thethings that allow the expansion,
we focus on building out thescale.
(20:07):
The second reason which is notalways the best reason why
people come to us, especiallythrough the VC channels, as
we've been flailing and failingand missing our targets and our
salespeople are frustrated andthey just need, you know,
they're in the sales, people aretelling us they need marketing
and we don't really know whatthat looks like.
(20:29):
And there's a lot that you cando to enable that and empower
that.
The first scenario is greatbecause it tends to be people
that say, we know what we know,but more importantly, we know
what we don't know.
And so let's build a plantogether.
The second one is where, wherethey are sort of in panic mode.
(20:49):
It is more often than not, weknow what to do, we just haven't
been doing enough of it, we justneed more of it.
So we just need you to do thisand that can be accomplished,
but it doesn't always setsomeone up for success.
Eric Dickmann (21:03):
Yeah.
I tend to see that at companieswhere there is a VP of sales and
marketing or somebody who hasthat title, where sales and
marketing are very closelyaligned because selling and
marketing are two differentthings, right?
They require different skillsets.
Salespeople want leads, leads,leads, right?
And marketers tend to know thatyou have to have a strategy to
develop that over time.
(21:24):
It's not a faucet.
Brett Schlar (21:27):
Yeah.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Eric Dickmann (21:29):
If I flip the coin around, how do you find new
Fractional CMOs to work withyour business?
So you're trying to create abusiness, right that's for lack
of a better word, sort of adating service, right?
You're trying to matchopportunities with skillsets and
we all have industry experience,we come from different areas,
but you're trying to findmatches for businesses and
(21:52):
Fractional CMOs who haveexperience in those kinds of
industries or challenges
Brett Schlar (21:58):
So at Grow Powerful, we have a vision that
is, I love our vision and thatis to assemble the greatest
marketing and growth minds inall of B2B technology.
And I think because our visionis so specific and really about
(22:18):
bringing the best of the best ofthe best, sorry, Top Gun, but
bringing the best of the best ofthe best together.
And it really has done great toattract people to us.
So we have a form on our websitewhere somebody wants to apply to
be an iCMO, they can apply.
And then we take a look at them,and then, you know, I meet with
(22:41):
them and I look at severalfactors.
Number one is, have they reallyhad some great success
operationally as a ChiefMarketing Officer in our target,
you know, size and type ofcompany.
And so, that's number one.
Number two is I want tounderstand their leadership
style because at some point,even though there are virtual or
(23:03):
a fractional or an iCMO, theyare going to be leading either
marketing team or managing themanager of the CEO, and I want
to understand that.
The third thing is howcollaborative are they and how
willing are they to look at theprocesses that we have proven
works and can work within that.
(23:24):
So we've had hundreds of peopleapply, I say over 600 people
have applied so far.
I would say that amazingly.
And I would say that that halfof them were just completely not
qualified, never had a CMO or VPof marketing role, never had it.
The other half actually have hada CMO or VP role, may have been
(23:45):
qualified, but aren't theattitude and the culture aren't
a good fit, their ability tounderstand the followup
processes are not a good fit.
We have scaled, we have finetuned it,and we now have I
think, 15 people that are activeas operational ICMOs in our
(24:06):
circle.
And I love them all.
Each of them have some greatnessthat they bring, each of them
are very transparent about theirweaknesses, we can serve a
client really well to get acompany from this point to this
point.
And then once we reached thecapability of that Fractional
CMO, we can possibly engage someother Fractional CMO on our team
(24:31):
to really go and take it to thenext level as well.
So we've had a lot of success.
My mission is to, um, have ateam of 250.
Eric Dickmann (24:41):
Oh, that's a big scale up.
Yeah.
Brett Schlar (24:42):
within five years.
So we have a lot of work to do,but we're going to do it in
stages.
So the people I've got on boardnow, I'm very happy with.
And the goal is to get thembusy, get them full, get them at
capacity, whether their capacityis 40 hours a week or 20 hours a
(25:03):
week, or they just want to takea one project.
Additional is to get themfeeling really good and feeling
fulfilled in their engagements,and then we'll start to add more
Fractional CMOs over time.
Eric Dickmann (25:16):
I'm interested too, in your process, are you
looking or do you today work offsome templated strategies?
So in other words, everybody onthe team follows a similar
process, or do you let thoseindividuals and those
personalities kind of engagewith the companies in a manner
that sort of they see fit.
Brett Schlar (25:35):
Yeah, so we have a model.
We call the five phases ofmarket led growth, and it allows
us to look at things from brand,from execution, from content,
product market fit, go to marketstrategy.
It looks at these differentthings.
And so that I think is veryorganized and something we feel
(25:58):
very good about.
And part of what that allows usto do is we can use that as,
when you go to the doctor andyou have a chart of the body and
say point to where it hurts, weuse that five phases of market
led growth as that entry pointto build a plan based on what
(26:19):
the biggest pain point thecompany has is, and then we can
develop customized solutions.
We try to do everything on arolling 90 day plan, and we do
everything on a very agile, youknow, model where we do either
two week or sometimes one weeksprints.
So that is established.
So we use either a Trello boardor Asana boards to make sure
(26:41):
that we're organized and we'reflowing nicely.
Having said that, we also, youknow, as far as filling in the
blanks with what the strategy isand the workshops we need to do
to build the plan or thecollaboration and how that
works, we leave up to every oneof our ICMOs because there is a
(27:01):
gift that they have.
Every single one of them is 10times smarter than I am and a
way better marketer than I am.
I'm an okay marketer, I lovebranding, I love establishing
process, and I'm an okaymarketer, but I don't think
anybody should hire me to gettheir growth that happened.
(27:22):
They need the magic that ourteam brings in as our Fractional
CMOs.
So I'm establishing a processthat I know gets us to find the
pain points the quickest, andgets us to building a process
that works well so we canmeasure and test and communicate
really well with our clients,but everything else, the magic,
(27:43):
the secret sauce, the plan, andthe process, that's up to every
one of the Fractional CMOs.
Eric Dickmann (27:50):
It's interesting to me how this space is
developing out.
I've seen some what I would callpartnerships where a number of
people who are in the space,join a company almost as a
partner, they're almost startinga consulting type company.
And then they get clients, theyfarm them out to whoever is the
most appropriate.
But I think that there's a fairamount of collaboration with the
(28:11):
people on those teams as well.
And then I've seen things likewhat you're doing there at Grow,
where it's a bit of amatchmaking service where you're
bringing in independent people,trying to match them with
clients, give them a little bitof structure, and grow that over
time.
And then I see a lot ofindependents that are out there
just kind of doing their ownthing.
And I think there's good and badtoll of this, right?
(28:33):
There are a lot of businessesthat need help, and I don't
think a lot of businesses reallyknow where to look.
And I think that's a hugechallenge.
And so I think the more thatorganizations like yours get
some scale, get some visibility,it helps everybody in general
become more familiar with theconcept because all you need to
do is do a Google search and youcan see that, you know,
(28:55):
Fractional CMO, virtual CMO,those aren't high ranking search
terms, right?
You know, people, it's not topof mind.
But there are so many businessesout there that need help.
Brett Schlar (29:04):
So you know, I have seen a lot of different
models.
So first of all, I think thereason why we got such great
response to our iCMO search isbecause there are so many people
that are saying, I want to dosomething else than working for
one company.
And so you're seeing a hugegrowth in that.
(29:24):
Then you take The GreatResignation we talked about at
the beginning of the show, youtalk about the other R word, the
recession word, and gettingpeople nervous, and then you've
also got this idea that a lot ofpeople are changing their
mindset that's not just aboutwork, you know, there's life,
there's family, there's, youknow, one of my plans when I
(29:46):
work with ICMOs on thecompensation models, and I
talked through severalscenarios, one of the scenarios
is you know, I want to work 20hours a week, but I want to
spend the rest of the time, youknow, remembering my kids or I
want to work 20 hours a week,and I want to do my passion
project, which is starting abike shop.
You know, whatever it might be,we want to let people have that
(30:10):
ability, have the freedom offlexibility.
And I think.
There are a lot of people.
I imagine there are thousandsupon thousands upon thousands of
people that either are doingFractional CMO work, whether
they say they are or whetherthey officially call it that or
not, there are thousands uponthousands of people that are
(30:31):
using a Fractional CMO title.
You're seeing job searches.
So you're seeing peoplesearching for, companies who are
looking for Fractional CMOs,listing them on LinkedIn,
listing them on.
Indeed.
The other thing that I am seeingis full-time operational CMOs
(30:53):
who are really taking a seriouslook at the fractional side of
the business.
I will consider successful whenI can get hundreds of people to
say- I don't want to peddle thisone product, this one company
anymore.
I want to maximize my time thatI spend, I want to maximize the
(31:13):
money that I make for the timethat I work so I don't have to
you know, be at the mercy of acompany, the company works
around me.
And that's what I think that'sthe big mind shift that's
happening is people are not aswilling to work away and work
away and work away and forgetwhat they're working for.
(31:37):
And so that's a big shift that'shappening.
Eric Dickmann (31:40):
It's interesting that you mentioned job searches
and sites like LinkedIn.
They have not caught up with thetimes yet, right?
Most job posting boards stillrequire a location.
They still require a location,even if nobody is ever expected
to go there.
And so there's an option to say,well, remote also, but they
still require a location.
And so it's even difficult onthose sites to find potentially
(32:03):
remote only jobs or fractionaljobs, because it's still sort of
defaulting to looking in yourhome city or wherever you've
chosen to look.
The speed of change in today'ssociety is pretty remarkable.
And I'm curious, so if somebodyis doing fractional CMO work or
something similar, or they thinkthis is the way they want to go,
they want to leave the corporateworld, what would you say then
(32:25):
would be the ideal candidate forsomething like Grow?
Brett Schlar (32:30):
So I think the biggest challenge that people
have to overcome if they are afull-time CMO and looking at
this is a mindset shift.
There is a perception of asecurity blanket in working for
a company full time.
The benefits, you know, healthcare.
(32:51):
And we do a lot of healthcaretech, a lot of health tech
company work.
And so I understand a lot aboutthe benefits and a lot about how
healthcare companies work andthe perception of dependence and
the perception of fear ofstepping away from a good
(33:13):
benefits program really doesscare me.
And thinking, well, there's noway I can afford my own
healthcare program.
Well, if you're making$150,000or$175,000 a year, and you're
getting good benefits, that'sgreat, but what if you're making
$300,000 a year?
That 1500 bucks a month isn't awhole lot,,but people either are
(33:37):
or are not wired to do thefractional CMO work.
And I think the first thing isdo some soul searching, you
know, are you afraid to moveaway from that corporate
security blanket, even thoughthe average lifespan of a person
at a company, like in, in mostcases is 17 months, it's still a
(33:58):
perception and people can't getout of that perception and
that's okay.
Realize you're not a good fitfor it and you know, again,
that's okay.
But if you feel like you are agood fit for it and you're ready
for it, I think there are quitea few Slack channels that are
set up for Fractional CMOs,there are shows like this that
(34:20):
give people the insights, I willsay there are a couple of
podcast shows and I think thisone is really spot on for the
type of people we're talkingabout.
There's other Fractional CMOexperiences that are more about
people who might be copywritersor graphic designers and gives
(34:41):
them the confidence to callthemselves a CMO.
But in reality, they're notreally a CMO.
The thing I would say, and sothat sort of leads me to another
point, which is make sure you'vegot a great track record, you've
got experiences and case studiesand stories that you can bring
(35:02):
with you to sell yourself.
If you don't have that, you'regoing to struggle to find
business.
And then you know, the otherthing selfishly I'll say is go
check out, growpowerful.io, andwe've got a whole ICMO section.
And if you want to talk to meabout it, you can fill out a
form on there and we can have aconversation to see if it might
(35:26):
be a good fit for you or not,but those are a couple of
things.
But I think, you know, first ofall, do the soul searching and
then second of all is make sureyou've got a good story to tell.
Eric Dickmann (35:37):
You're so right about job security.
I think in the corporate world,you could suddenly find yourself
out of a job, but I think ifyou're a good Fractional CMO,
you could find yourself workingyourself out of a job.
But you're so much more incontrol of that journey than you
are in the corporate world.
Brett Schlar (35:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And I'll tell you, like before Imoved into this model of really
setting other people up forsuccess, I've had a really good
run as a fractional CMO.
And back to my previous comment,I'm an okay marketer.
I'm really not that great.
I'm going okay leader, notreally that amazing.
My gift has been understandingand interpreting marketing for
(36:17):
emerging technology CEOs, andthen getting them to see what
marketing could do for them, andthen putting in some things
operationally.
There are other people that areway more amazing at actually
being a CMO and we're probablyway more natural than me at
actually delivering amazingstuff to the clients.
Eric Dickmann (36:38):
And it's all about knowing your strengths,
right?
Where you can really add valueto an organization and then
getting the visibility so thatpeople can find you.
Brett, I think this has been areally interesting conversation.
I love the concept of whatyou're doing.
If you would, as we close outthe show again, remind people
where they can get in touch withyou.
on LinkedIn, on the web.
Brett Schlar (36:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think the easiest thing todo is to go to growpowerful.io.
So it's growpowerful one word.io, You can find us there.
You can also search for us, GrowPowerful on LinkedIn.
I am on LinkedIn as well, so yousee my name down there.
There's not many Brett Schklarson LinkedIn.
I think I'm the only one, so youcan find me there, But I would
(37:20):
love to you know, hear yourthoughts.
If you are interested in what weare doing, please come our way
and talk to us and we'd love tohave a conversation.
Eric Dickmann (37:30):
That's great.
I really appreciate it and Iappreciate your time today.
This is a fascinating topic todiscuss.
It's fun to see how thisindustry is changing and
evolving.
And I think that the stuff thatyou're doing there at Grow is
super interesting for people.
So I hope they'll go check itout.
Brett Schlar (37:43):
Awesome.
Well, Eric, thank you so much.
I appreciate you giving me thetime to share some ideas with
you.
Eric Dickmann (37:51):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
The Virtual CMO podcast.
For more episodes, go tofiveechelon.com/podcast to
subscribe through your podcastplayer of choice.
And if you'd like to developconsistent lead flow and a
highly effective marketingstrategy, visit fiveechelon.com
to learn more about our VirtualCMO consulting services.
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
In this podcast, we haveconversations with marketing
professionals who share thestrategies, tactics, and mindset
you can use to improve theeffectiveness of your marketing
activities and grow yourbusiness.
Today, I'm excited to have guestBrett Schklar on the program.
(00:22):
Brett is the Co-founder andManaging Partner at Grow
Powerful, an online platformthat is assembling marketing
professionals focused on B2Btech who can deliver expertise
by serving as Fractional CMOsBrett, welcome to the program.
Brett Schlar (00:36):
Thanks, Eric.
Glad to be here.
Eric Dickmann (00:38):
I'm really excited to have this
conversation with you todaybecause as a Fractional CMO
myself and having a podcastwhere we focus on a lot of
Fractional CMO issues, thistopic is obviously very near and
dear to my heart.
And before we sort of dive intothe details of what you're doing
there at Grow Powerful.
If you would just give me anexpanded background.
What is your career history?
(00:59):
How did you get to this pointand starting up Grow Powerful?
Brett Schlar (01:02):
Like many it's a half, about 50% intentional, and
50% accidental way of getting towhere I am today.
I grew up in almost exclusivelyB2B technology, early stage
software companies, telecom,rose up through the ranks
between sales and marketing backto sales, back to marketing, and
(01:25):
really enjoyed that.
Had some great start-upexperience with a couple of
different companies of which hadexited.
And it was great to ride thattrain, and then about 17 years
ago, 18 years ago, actually, Ihad some health events that made
me just reconsider what I wasdoing.
And these health issues wererelated to my heart, I had some
(01:49):
problems with my heart, which isfine now, but it made me realize
that I literally couldn't put myheart into something that I was
doing before.
And I decided that I needed todo something different.
And I started a company, adifferent company called Market
Creation Group, and my goal wasto work part time, to do some
(02:11):
consulting, to have some funwound up growing it to about 20
people, fantastic revenues, andgoing from the idea of working
20 hours a week to actuallyworking significantly more.
However, I really enjoyed it.
About five years ago, I soldthat company to a private equity
(02:32):
firm and it was an agency thatwas focused on B2B technology.
So it was a really good matchup.
And then I decided, you knowwhat?
My health is fine, my family isfine, I'm going to go back to
work for a company where I don'thave to worry about running a
business or chasing after thebusiness or things like that.
(02:53):
And it took about nine monthsfor me to realize that I really
make a crappy employee.
And I had a graceful exit fromthat company, but it was very
obvious that the companyhonestly, is no longer there.
I don't think I did a great jobof picking the company.
(03:13):
I also just realized that wasnot a good employee at the end
of the day.
And so myself and a couple ofpartners, people that were
actually my customers who wereChief Marketing Officers
operationally in companies thatwere my clients, we decided to
get together and to buildsomething to really support the
Fractional CMO or the VirtualCMO model.
(03:35):
And so we started Grow about 20months ago now and we've had
phenomenal, phenomenal successso far.
Eric Dickmann (03:44):
It's always fun to hear about people's career
paths and the industries thatthey've touched on and the jobs
that they've worked in, and yourarely hear an entrepreneur that
has a straight line.
Usually there's some zigzags inthere, some restarts, some
pivots.
So your story is interesting inthat respect.
And one thing I would love foryou to comment on is, you know,
we die right into the topic ofFractional CMO, but really this
(04:06):
is a relatively new concept.
I'm always amazed how manypeople I get into conversations
with, and they've never evenheard the term.
And there are variationsfloating around virtual CMO,
iCMO, on demand CMO, cetera.
And there are an awful lot ofpeople who call themselves
consultants, but are reallydoing that role.
And I often tell people, CMO isreally a Fortune 500 title,
(04:29):
right?
It's not common in smallerbusinesses, but it's a concept
really.
A fractional CMO is a concept.
How would you describe it?
Brett Schlar (04:37):
You're spot on.
I mean, you're seeing the samething that I am, which is you
know, the concept is essentiallya form of consulting, but it
might be a little bit more of aspecific niche of consulting.
You know, we work with emergingcompanies anywhere from$2
million to let's say$250million, they're typically VC
(04:58):
backed or private equity backed.
Most of our business comesthrough the VC or private equity
channels, they bring us in toconnect with their portfolio
companies.
My philosophy is pretty simple.
I don't think any company that'sless than a billion dollars
needs a real CMO.
Just going to put that outthere.
(05:18):
And I think they need somebodythat has the entire front, you
know?
The cash register side of thebusiness, AKA a Chief Revenue
Officer.
I think that the idea of theChief Customer Officer is
becoming more and more popular.
And I really love that.
And that really means thatthere's not room for a Chief
Marketing Officer or a ChiefMarket Officer.
(05:42):
And so it's not that the CMO isbeing squeezed out, is that the
idea of a CMO was somethingpeople thought they really
needed, but at the end of theday, they do need, but they
don't necessarily need it as afunction of the executive team
as a full-time person.
It's more of someone to be amarketing and market consigliere
(06:05):
to the CEO and to have thecustomer be the CEO, the CRO,
and in some cases, the ChiefCustomer Officer.
And when that's in place, youdefinitely need a marketing
team, right?
You need people to understanddigital marketing, understand
the product really well,understand content, I think that
every content marketing personneeds to also know how to
(06:28):
produce shows like what we'redoing here.
I don't think there's a placefor a full-time Chief marketing
Officer.
And so I think that's why we'refinding the Virtual CMO, the
Fractional CMO, the ICMObecoming much more popular and
being much more focused than theconsultant, which in some cases
(06:49):
is a good word, and some casesis a bad word as well.
Eric Dickmann (06:55):
Yeah.
Consulting has a mixedreputation, right?
Especially, for larger companieswho work with some of the big
firms.
You know, it's almost like arash that you can't get rid of.
You get consultants into some ofthese organizations and they
just never go away.
But I think you're exactlyright.
There are a lot of people outthere that are doing similar
things to what a Fractional CMOdoes, they just don't
necessarily call themselvesthat.
(07:16):
And having guests on the showand talking about this a lot,
It's pretty well understood thatthis whole fractional model kind
of started out in the CFO'soffice, right?
That's really where it got itsfooting.
And now we're seeing it expandout, not just for fractional
CMOs, but we're seeingfractional anything in the
C-suite.
Do you think that period of timethat we're in, especially
(07:37):
considering you know, economicfactors and certainly COVID that
we've gone through, do you thinkthat's helped or hurt the model?
Brett Schlar (07:45):
So I think that this is the springboard for the
model.
I think you've got, the RNR,you've got the Great
Resignation, and you've got thewhat nobody is actually saying
is officially happening, butwe're all talking about it's
kind of like the weird unclethat comes to the weddings or
the Bar Mitzvahs or thefunerals.
(08:06):
You know, we don't talk aboutthat weird uncle, but we'll call
him Uncle Recession.
And you know, we're in denial ofthat fact.
But I think that between thosetwo things, The Great
Resignation, which really hasbeen and should be hitting those
CMOs really hard, for goodreasons, not bad reasons.
(08:29):
It is hard, especially as a B2Btechnology, as a business to
business technology, focusedChief Marketing Officer, in very
few cases, you're set up forsuccess, in most cases, you're
set up for failure.
And there's a hundred reasonswhy, and if you'd like to, we
can dive into the 116 reasonswhy current CMOs and B2B
technology are set up forfailure, but they are.
Eric Dickmann (08:50):
Hmm
Brett Schlar (08:51):
And there's a few that are successful, but it's
it's got an entire organizationbehind it.
And so you've got the greatresignation, which means people
are re-evaluating theirsatisfaction, their joy out of
the job.
You've got as of a few yearsago, the average lifespan of a
head of marketing in a B2Btechnology company was 19 months
(09:14):
now.
There's no official data, butit's closer.
But what I had been hearing andthrough anecdotal conversations
closer to the 17 months, soyou're already kind of treated
as a virtual or a fractionalanyway.
And then, you know, on top ofthat, we've got, you know,
people needing to cut budgetsaggressively Every week, I'm on
(09:38):
a group call with severalhundred Chief Marketing Officers
in B2B technology.
And every Friday morning, we gettogether and we talk.
And the last few weeks I was inthe last three weeks, it's gone
from, you know, excitement,optimism, getting back to
events, finding that ROI and theevents to now the conversation
is, Okay, my board is asking mefor a plan B for a scenario, you
(10:01):
know, map of letting go of halfof the marketing team or letting
go of everybody except for a fewcore people or hunkering down,
and how does it look to getoutside help versus inside help?
So that's a very long-winded wayto say, Eric.
This is the time that we cansolidify, rationalize and
(10:24):
amplify the value of afractional, virtual, or ICMO.
Eric Dickmann (10:30):
I couldn't agree more.
I would just add to that, thatduring COVID, people got used to
remote work.
I mean, this is pretty clear,right?
Companies are really strugglinggetting people back into the
office, but there was a broaderacceptance that remote work is
okay.
And I think there was alwayssome hesitation in the C-suite
or in the executive suite tosay, well, we don't want to have
a remote executive.
(10:50):
You know, they need to be hereto see if people are sitting in
their cubicles, right?
You know, but now I think thatthat's changed.
Have you seen that as well?
Brett Schlar (10:57):
I sort of seen a split.
And so I would say more timesthan not the companies that are
really trying to be employeefocused.
Yes, it is very much that wayand there's a lot more
flexibility and companies areadopting more of an asynchronous
(11:18):
communication model versussynchronous.
I'm also seeing companies whoare mandating coming back to the
office, whether it's two days aweek, three days a week, or
whatever.
And the feedback as I go to theoffice, cause I have to, and I
wound up being on Zoom callswith half the people anyway.
So I'm doing the same thing thatI was doing at home.
(11:40):
It's just in the office and youknow, it's a little bit chaotic.
So I think that most companiesare embracing that idea of
flexible, fractional, butvirtual, as far as you know, not
being in person, and reallydoubling down on what does
(12:01):
asynchronous productivity looklike?
We're doing it, I mean, we'vegot an office, but everybody
that we have except for oneperson is in some other state
than Colorado.
As a business owner, it's alittle bit complicated because
instead of mastering the art ofColorado employment, I now have
(12:25):
to, you know,, my CPA tells me,here are certain states that are
good to find people and certainstates they're not good to find
people.
And I try not to use that as adecision on where to find
people, but it's a benefitbecause I now have, you know, 50
states and maybe other countriesas well, we're not there yet,
(12:45):
but you know, 50 states at leastto where I can find talent
versus being limited to peoplewithin a 20, 30, 40 mile commute
radius.
Eric Dickmann (12:58):
Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to
the podcast.
But first, are you ready togrow, scale, and take your
marketing to the next level?
If so, The Five Echelon Group'sVirtual CMO consulting service
may be a great fit for you.
We can help build a strategicmarketing plan for your business
and manage its execution,step-by-step.
(13:18):
We'll focus on areas like how toattract more leads.
How to create compellingmessaging that resonates with
your ideal customers.
How to strategically package andposition your products and
services.
How to increase lead conversion,improve your margins, and scale
your business.
To find out more about ourconsulting offerings and
schedule a consultation, go tofiveechelon.com and click on
(13:41):
Services.
Now back to the podcast.
So you talk a lot about workingwith VC and then bringing you in
as a fractional CMO and VCs havea real benefit, right?
They're mentors to many of thesecompanies, right?
They have templates, they knowwhat works, they know when
people need to come into abusiness at what particular
stage, but for companies thatdon't have that support that
(14:03):
don't have that sort ofmentoring, I think oftentimes
it's very unclear when they needto bring in marketing help.
Have you found that as well?
Brett Schlar (14:13):
Yes.
Especially technology focusedcompanies.
If they don't have it.
And by the way, there's a lot offorms of mentorship, there's the
VCs, there's a private equity,there's also, you know, non-VC
oriented board members, forcompanies that don't have that
(14:36):
level of financial or boardlevel support, there's a lot of
great organizations such as EOentrepreneurs, organization,
YPO, Vistige that offer levelsof support.
But what I find in B2Btechnology companies where
you've got the founder that isthe technology guru is a strong
(15:02):
resistance to the idea ofmarketing and almost a theory
that marketing is a shortcut ifyour product isn't good enough,
and a sense that my product isso good, it should sell itself.
Eric Dickmann (15:16):
I've heard this before
Brett Schlar (15:17):
There is a concept of product led growth, and I'm
sure you've probably talkedabout this on your show, but the
concept of product led growth isgreat and there's probably 1 to
2% of technology companies thatare actually doing that.
Then you've got the other 80%that are talking the product led
(15:38):
growth message, but they may notactually have a true product led
growth or strategy or real planin place.
so you know, trying to get outof the buzzwords of things, but
yes, if there is not really goodmentorship in place with a CEO,
(16:01):
there tends to be a resistance.
And honestly, for me,personally, there are a ton of
technology companies that Iwould love to work with, but if
they don't understand thenetwork effects and the
amplification, and the economiesof scale you can get with a
strong marketing program and astrong growth program.
(16:22):
I'm not going to have a lot ofsuccess with them as a customer,
and I need to go, you know, I'llwalk the other way.
Eric Dickmann (16:28):
It seems like with many of these product led
companies and the great productthat they've developed, what I
often see, and I'll beinterested to hear your feedback
on this is that when I look atthe product, it's really a
variation of something else thatexists.
It's not that often thatsomething truly revolutionary
comes along.
(16:48):
I just finished watching thekeynote at Apple's development
conference, you know, the mostvaluable company in the world.
And there really wasn't anythingnew, it was all incremental.
Improvements, which yes, thoseare new things, but they were
incremental improvements.
There wasn't that brand newthing that nobody's ever heard
of before.
And I think when I see so manyproduct led companies that think
(17:10):
the product is going to sellitself, they kind of forget that
they're competing with manyother things that are very
similar.
Brett Schlar (17:16):
So I did watch the WWDC.
I love more from a presentationstyle and to understand
Eric Dickmann (17:23):
They're fantastic, right?
Brett Schlar (17:25):
Just as much as, and they are fantastic.
I think they're going as theyare doing more virtual, as
they're doing less live isbecoming a little bit over the
top if you will.
But the interesting thing isright before that I read a book
and I forgot the name of it andthe author.But I think it was
called like beyond Steve orAfter Steve.
(17:48):
And it was the story of what'sApple like in a post Steve jobs
and Johnny Ive world.
And the innovation may not bethere like it was before because
Tim Cook has operationalexcellence, but he's not a
product visionary.
And so to your point, you know,and now they don't just have
(18:13):
product led growth, they haveecosystem led growth, right?
So the products create anecosystem, that ecosystem
creates, you know, variations ofproducts, but they're moving
towards a services business justas much as they are a product
business, and you can see it inwhere the revenue comes from.
And so they are really doing themost to become an ecosystem led
(18:37):
growth or a services led growthcompany, just as much, if not
more than a product led growthcompany.
Eric Dickmann (18:44):
Yeah, it's interesting to take such a big
ship and steer it, right?
Because they've got so muchgoing on.
It's not easy to move somelevers anymore, but I think that
this whole idea of innovation isreally interesting.
And I'm curious when you engagewith new clients, what do you
see as the number one problemthat they are coming to you for
(19:07):
to solve?
So what is it that theyunderstand they don't have a
marketing strategy and say, nowis the time we need to build
that marketing strategy.
Are they stagnating in somearea?
Is it usually because of aproblem or because they're
proactive and saying, we need tostart to prepare for our
marketing strategy so that wecan grow?
Brett Schlar (19:26):
Yeah.
There's a lot of different waysto explain what people need, but
the reality is there's tworeasons why people engage with
us.
Number one, they are gettingthere.
They're finding their productmarket fit really well.
(19:46):
And they're ready to double downon the growth, which means
taking what's working andamplifying it.
And in that scenario, we are agreat fit, we help find, we
test, we help measure and wehelp expand, expand, expand.
And then once we figured out thethings that allow the expansion,
we focus on building out thescale.
(20:07):
The second reason which is notalways the best reason why
people come to us, especiallythrough the VC channels, as
we've been flailing and failingand missing our targets and our
salespeople are frustrated andthey just need, you know,
they're in the sales, people aretelling us they need marketing
and we don't really know whatthat looks like.
(20:29):
And there's a lot that you cando to enable that and empower
that.
The first scenario is greatbecause it tends to be people
that say, we know what we know,but more importantly, we know
what we don't know.
And so let's build a plantogether.
The second one is where, wherethey are sort of in panic mode.
(20:49):
It is more often than not, weknow what to do, we just haven't
been doing enough of it, we justneed more of it.
So we just need you to do thisand that can be accomplished,
but it doesn't always setsomeone up for success.
Eric Dickmann (21:03):
Yeah.
I tend to see that at companieswhere there is a VP of sales and
marketing or somebody who hasthat title, where sales and
marketing are very closelyaligned because selling and
marketing are two differentthings, right?
They require different skillsets.
Salespeople want leads, leads,leads, right?
And marketers tend to know thatyou have to have a strategy to
develop that over time.
(21:24):
It's not a faucet.
Brett Schlar (21:27):
Yeah.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Eric Dickmann (21:29):
If I flip the coin around, how do you find new
Fractional CMOs to work withyour business?
So you're trying to create abusiness, right that's for lack
of a better word, sort of adating service, right?
You're trying to matchopportunities with skillsets and
we all have industry experience,we come from different areas,
but you're trying to findmatches for businesses and
(21:52):
Fractional CMOs who haveexperience in those kinds of
industries or challenges
Brett Schlar (21:58):
So at Grow Powerful, we have a vision that
is, I love our vision and thatis to assemble the greatest
marketing and growth minds inall of B2B technology.
And I think because our visionis so specific and really about
(22:18):
bringing the best of the best ofthe best, sorry, Top Gun, but
bringing the best of the best ofthe best together.
And it really has done great toattract people to us.
So we have a form on our websitewhere somebody wants to apply to
be an iCMO, they can apply.
And then we take a look at them,and then, you know, I meet with
(22:41):
them and I look at severalfactors.
Number one is, have they reallyhad some great success
operationally as a ChiefMarketing Officer in our target,
you know, size and type ofcompany.
And so, that's number one.
Number two is I want tounderstand their leadership
style because at some point,even though there are virtual or
(23:03):
a fractional or an iCMO, theyare going to be leading either
marketing team or managing themanager of the CEO, and I want
to understand that.
The third thing is howcollaborative are they and how
willing are they to look at theprocesses that we have proven
works and can work within that.
(23:24):
So we've had hundreds of peopleapply, I say over 600 people
have applied so far.
I would say that amazingly.
And I would say that that halfof them were just completely not
qualified, never had a CMO or VPof marketing role, never had it.
The other half actually have hada CMO or VP role, may have been
(23:45):
qualified, but aren't theattitude and the culture aren't
a good fit, their ability tounderstand the followup
processes are not a good fit.
We have scaled, we have finetuned it,and we now have I
think, 15 people that are activeas operational ICMOs in our
(24:06):
circle.
And I love them all.
Each of them have some greatnessthat they bring, each of them
are very transparent about theirweaknesses, we can serve a
client really well to get acompany from this point to this
point.
And then once we reached thecapability of that Fractional
CMO, we can possibly engage someother Fractional CMO on our team
(24:31):
to really go and take it to thenext level as well.
So we've had a lot of success.
My mission is to, um, have ateam of 250.
Eric Dickmann (24:41):
Oh, that's a big scale up.
Yeah.
Brett Schlar (24:42):
within five years.
So we have a lot of work to do,but we're going to do it in
stages.
So the people I've got on boardnow, I'm very happy with.
And the goal is to get thembusy, get them full, get them at
capacity, whether their capacityis 40 hours a week or 20 hours a
(25:03):
week, or they just want to takea one project.
Additional is to get themfeeling really good and feeling
fulfilled in their engagements,and then we'll start to add more
Fractional CMOs over time.
Eric Dickmann (25:16):
I'm interested too, in your process, are you
looking or do you today work offsome templated strategies?
So in other words, everybody onthe team follows a similar
process, or do you let thoseindividuals and those
personalities kind of engagewith the companies in a manner
that sort of they see fit.
Brett Schlar (25:35):
Yeah, so we have a model.
We call the five phases ofmarket led growth, and it allows
us to look at things from brand,from execution, from content,
product market fit, go to marketstrategy.
It looks at these differentthings.
And so that I think is veryorganized and something we feel
(25:58):
very good about.
And part of what that allows usto do is we can use that as,
when you go to the doctor andyou have a chart of the body and
say point to where it hurts, weuse that five phases of market
led growth as that entry pointto build a plan based on what
(26:19):
the biggest pain point thecompany has is, and then we can
develop customized solutions.
We try to do everything on arolling 90 day plan, and we do
everything on a very agile, youknow, model where we do either
two week or sometimes one weeksprints.
So that is established.
So we use either a Trello boardor Asana boards to make sure
(26:41):
that we're organized and we'reflowing nicely.
Having said that, we also, youknow, as far as filling in the
blanks with what the strategy isand the workshops we need to do
to build the plan or thecollaboration and how that
works, we leave up to every oneof our ICMOs because there is a
(27:01):
gift that they have.
Every single one of them is 10times smarter than I am and a
way better marketer than I am.
I'm an okay marketer, I lovebranding, I love establishing
process, and I'm an okaymarketer, but I don't think
anybody should hire me to gettheir growth that happened.
(27:22):
They need the magic that ourteam brings in as our Fractional
CMOs.
So I'm establishing a processthat I know gets us to find the
pain points the quickest, andgets us to building a process
that works well so we canmeasure and test and communicate
really well with our clients,but everything else, the magic,
(27:43):
the secret sauce, the plan, andthe process, that's up to every
one of the Fractional CMOs.
Eric Dickmann (27:50):
It's interesting to me how this space is
developing out.
I've seen some what I would callpartnerships where a number of
people who are in the space,join a company almost as a
partner, they're almost startinga consulting type company.
And then they get clients, theyfarm them out to whoever is the
most appropriate.
But I think that there's a fairamount of collaboration with the
(28:11):
people on those teams as well.
And then I've seen things likewhat you're doing there at Grow,
where it's a bit of amatchmaking service where you're
bringing in independent people,trying to match them with
clients, give them a little bitof structure, and grow that over
time.
And then I see a lot ofindependents that are out there
just kind of doing their ownthing.
And I think there's good and badtoll of this, right?
(28:33):
There are a lot of businessesthat need help, and I don't
think a lot of businesses reallyknow where to look.
And I think that's a hugechallenge.
And so I think the more thatorganizations like yours get
some scale, get some visibility,it helps everybody in general
become more familiar with theconcept because all you need to
do is do a Google search and youcan see that, you know,
(28:55):
Fractional CMO, virtual CMO,those aren't high ranking search
terms, right?
You know, people, it's not topof mind.
But there are so many businessesout there that need help.
Brett Schlar (29:04):
So you know, I have seen a lot of different
models.
So first of all, I think thereason why we got such great
response to our iCMO search isbecause there are so many people
that are saying, I want to dosomething else than working for
one company.
And so you're seeing a hugegrowth in that.
(29:24):
Then you take The GreatResignation we talked about at
the beginning of the show, youtalk about the other R word, the
recession word, and gettingpeople nervous, and then you've
also got this idea that a lot ofpeople are changing their
mindset that's not just aboutwork, you know, there's life,
there's family, there's, youknow, one of my plans when I
(29:46):
work with ICMOs on thecompensation models, and I
talked through severalscenarios, one of the scenarios
is you know, I want to work 20hours a week, but I want to
spend the rest of the time, youknow, remembering my kids or I
want to work 20 hours a week,and I want to do my passion
project, which is starting abike shop.
You know, whatever it might be,we want to let people have that
(30:10):
ability, have the freedom offlexibility.
And I think.
There are a lot of people.
I imagine there are thousandsupon thousands upon thousands of
people that either are doingFractional CMO work, whether
they say they are or whetherthey officially call it that or
not, there are thousands uponthousands of people that are
(30:31):
using a Fractional CMO title.
You're seeing job searches.
So you're seeing peoplesearching for, companies who are
looking for Fractional CMOs,listing them on LinkedIn,
listing them on.
Indeed.
The other thing that I am seeingis full-time operational CMOs
(30:53):
who are really taking a seriouslook at the fractional side of
the business.
I will consider successful whenI can get hundreds of people to
say- I don't want to peddle thisone product, this one company
anymore.
I want to maximize my time thatI spend, I want to maximize the
(31:13):
money that I make for the timethat I work so I don't have to
you know, be at the mercy of acompany, the company works
around me.
And that's what I think that'sthe big mind shift that's
happening is people are not aswilling to work away and work
away and work away and forgetwhat they're working for.
(31:37):
And so that's a big shift that'shappening.
Eric Dickmann (31:40):
It's interesting that you mentioned job searches
and sites like LinkedIn.
They have not caught up with thetimes yet, right?
Most job posting boards stillrequire a location.
They still require a location,even if nobody is ever expected
to go there.
And so there's an option to say,well, remote also, but they
still require a location.
And so it's even difficult onthose sites to find potentially
(32:03):
remote only jobs or fractionaljobs, because it's still sort of
defaulting to looking in yourhome city or wherever you've
chosen to look.
The speed of change in today'ssociety is pretty remarkable.
And I'm curious, so if somebodyis doing fractional CMO work or
something similar, or they thinkthis is the way they want to go,
they want to leave the corporateworld, what would you say then
(32:25):
would be the ideal candidate forsomething like Grow?
Brett Schlar (32:30):
So I think the biggest challenge that people
have to overcome if they are afull-time CMO and looking at
this is a mindset shift.
There is a perception of asecurity blanket in working for
a company full time.
The benefits, you know, healthcare.
(32:51):
And we do a lot of healthcaretech, a lot of health tech
company work.
And so I understand a lot aboutthe benefits and a lot about how
healthcare companies work andthe perception of dependence and
the perception of fear ofstepping away from a good
(33:13):
benefits program really doesscare me.
And thinking, well, there's noway I can afford my own
healthcare program.
Well, if you're making$150,000or$175,000 a year, and you're
getting good benefits, that'sgreat, but what if you're making
$300,000 a year?
That 1500 bucks a month isn't awhole lot,,but people either are
(33:37):
or are not wired to do thefractional CMO work.
And I think the first thing isdo some soul searching, you
know, are you afraid to moveaway from that corporate
security blanket, even thoughthe average lifespan of a person
at a company, like in, in mostcases is 17 months, it's still a
(33:58):
perception and people can't getout of that perception and
that's okay.
Realize you're not a good fitfor it and you know, again,
that's okay.
But if you feel like you are agood fit for it and you're ready
for it, I think there are quitea few Slack channels that are
set up for Fractional CMOs,there are shows like this that
(34:20):
give people the insights, I willsay there are a couple of
podcast shows and I think thisone is really spot on for the
type of people we're talkingabout.
There's other Fractional CMOexperiences that are more about
people who might be copywritersor graphic designers and gives
(34:41):
them the confidence to callthemselves a CMO.
But in reality, they're notreally a CMO.
The thing I would say, and sothat sort of leads me to another
point, which is make sure you'vegot a great track record, you've
got experiences and case studiesand stories that you can bring
(35:02):
with you to sell yourself.
If you don't have that, you'regoing to struggle to find
business.
And then you know, the otherthing selfishly I'll say is go
check out, growpowerful.io, andwe've got a whole ICMO section.
And if you want to talk to meabout it, you can fill out a
form on there and we can have aconversation to see if it might
(35:26):
be a good fit for you or not,but those are a couple of
things.
But I think, you know, first ofall, do the soul searching and
then second of all is make sureyou've got a good story to tell.
Eric Dickmann (35:37):
You're so right about job security.
I think in the corporate world,you could suddenly find yourself
out of a job, but I think ifyou're a good Fractional CMO,
you could find yourself workingyourself out of a job.
But you're so much more incontrol of that journey than you
are in the corporate world.
Brett Schlar (35:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And I'll tell you, like before Imoved into this model of really
setting other people up forsuccess, I've had a really good
run as a fractional CMO.
And back to my previous comment,I'm an okay marketer.
I'm really not that great.
I'm going okay leader, notreally that amazing.
My gift has been understandingand interpreting marketing for
(36:17):
emerging technology CEOs, andthen getting them to see what
marketing could do for them, andthen putting in some things
operationally.
There are other people that areway more amazing at actually
being a CMO and we're probablyway more natural than me at
actually delivering amazingstuff to the clients.
Eric Dickmann (36:38):
And it's all about knowing your strengths,
right?
Where you can really add valueto an organization and then
getting the visibility so thatpeople can find you.
Brett, I think this has been areally interesting conversation.
I love the concept of whatyou're doing.
If you would, as we close outthe show again, remind people
where they can get in touch withyou.
on LinkedIn, on the web.
Brett Schlar (36:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think the easiest thing todo is to go to growpowerful.io.
So it's growpowerful one word.io, You can find us there.
You can also search for us, GrowPowerful on LinkedIn.
I am on LinkedIn as well, so yousee my name down there.
There's not many Brett Schklarson LinkedIn.
I think I'm the only one, so youcan find me there, But I would
(37:20):
love to you know, hear yourthoughts.
If you are interested in what weare doing, please come our way
and talk to us and we'd love tohave a conversation.
Eric Dickmann (37:30):
That's great.
I really appreciate it and Iappreciate your time today.
This is a fascinating topic todiscuss.
It's fun to see how thisindustry is changing and
evolving.
And I think that the stuff thatyou're doing there at Grow is
super interesting for people.
So I hope they'll go check itout.
Brett Schlar (37:43):
Awesome.
Well, Eric, thank you so much.
I appreciate you giving me thetime to share some ideas with
you.
Eric Dickmann (37:51):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
The Virtual CMO podcast.
For more episodes, go tofiveechelon.com/podcast to
subscribe through your podcastplayer of choice.
And if you'd like to developconsistent lead flow and a
highly effective marketingstrategy, visit fiveechelon.com
to learn more about our VirtualCMO consulting services.
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