Journey into Music Video Mastery: A Discussion with Filmmaker Tom Flynn

Prepare to be captivated as we journey alongside Tom Flynn, a virtuoso director, filmmaker, and cinematographer, making a spectacular pivot from audio engineer to music video master. We probe the fascinating world of music video production, exploring the intricacies and challenges as well as the triumphs. Tom's journey is an astonishing testament to the power of creative risk-taking, a lesson for anyone daring to make a leap into the unknown in their career.

Our conversation takes a dive into the often-overlooked importance of free work and exploration in creative fields. Tom Flynn shares an inspiring narrative of how a free project catapulted him into a large figure deals - illustrating that sometimes, the hustle pays off in unimaginable ways. We also navigate the unpredictable tides of the industry and explore how to utilize tools like Unreal Engine to create VFX, giving you a glimpse into the magic behind the scenes.

Finally, join us as we unpack the creative process, exploring different techniques and tools used in filmmaking and the benefits of handheld cameras. Tom Flynn provides insights into the world of stop motion music video projects and shares his techniques for overcoming challenges with creative problem solving. In our vibrant conversation, we touch upon the importance of constant learning and adaptation, and how to stay creatively inspired. Not just for the aspiring filmmakers and cinematographers, but for anyone who loves a good story, this episode is a must-listen!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So welcome to the Vision Maker podcast.
So this week we have Tom Flynn,an extraordinary director,
filmmaker, cinematographer thatI have the pleasure of knowing
for quite some time now.
And, tom, why don't you giveour audience a bit of an intro
to you and your background?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Sure, my name is Tom Flynn.
I am mostly a music videodirector.
I've been doing this for about10 years now, got into it from
doing audio engineering and Ikind of switched over at some
point and decided to go full oninto music video and just video
production in general.
But yeah, I mean it's beensuper fun.

(00:42):
I get to work with bands.
I love mostly rock bands, metalbands, some pop stuff here and
there.
You know I kind of switched itup a little bit, but you know
I'm just happy I get to pick upa camera and do that for a
living.
It's pretty fun.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Dude, it's amazing and, honestly, some of the bands
you work with are some of thesebands I love and can't wait to
dive into some of those projectsthat I've seen, especially some
recent ones too.
Because, I'm sure, like thestories, like I've already heard
some stories from you, so it'slike those situations are pretty
awesome and I also love.

(01:18):
The crazy thing is, I feel likeso many auto engineers have
switched to video, especiallybecause of the pandemic, you
know.
But even before then, like I'venoticed, so many people have
come in contact, and mepersonally, you know, as an
audio engineer background too,yes, going to video.
So I love to start out with alittle bit of your story on how

(01:41):
you went from that field intovideo and how did that start?

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Sure, so I mean, I kind of always knew my way
around a video camera for now.
When I was like back in highschool I was making like little
skate videos, snowboard videoswith my friends, I had like an
old mini DV camera, you know,with the little mini DV tapes
you put them in and, you know,looks like the early 2000s.
But you know, I was editing aniMovie whatever I had my hands

(02:07):
on at that time and I was alwaysputting together these little
mini edits from skateboardingand I always had that little
piece of knowledge in my backpocket.
But I went to school for audioand then I started interning and
then eventually working at FuduStudios with Mike Watts, who is
amazing and you know, got towork with some really cool bands

(02:29):
that I got to engineer therefor maybe three or four years
like full time, just doing itevery single day for like 12
hours a day at least, and it wasgreat.
But bands were coming in withthese really not so good music
videos.
You know that's kind of theywere just showing them to us and

(02:49):
we're like, hmm, you know Tomknows his way around the camera,
like why don't we, you know,give him a shot or whatever?
I'm like, yeah, let's see.
And I ended up doing like two orthree and they, you know, I
borrowed a friend's T2i whichwas like state of the art at the
time.
I guess hilarious, but camerasstill great, honestly.

(03:10):
But I borrowed a friend's T2i,went out like, shot it on auto
mode.
You know, I didn't knowanything.
I was just like I know what Iwant to see, but I don't know
any of these settings.
I was just twisting shutterspeed for exposure.
I didn't know anything.
So when I shot these videos,edited them and they didn't turn
out half bad, I was kind oflike, ah, like I still look back

(03:31):
on those videos and likethere's little moments in there
where I was like, ah, like thatwas kind of a cool moment.
But you know, that kind of waslike a little bit of a light
bulb moment for me where I waslike, hmm, maybe I could like
slowly work this in and you knowbands would come in and I would
try to produce, engineer themand be like, hey, you need a
music video too.
And slowly kind of inched myway into that and just the

(03:55):
demand for video like becamemore than the demand for me as
an engineer and I kind ofstarted realizing like, like
what if I just try to make theswitch?
What if I just make a hard jumphere and just see what happens
for a little bit?
And yeah, that ended uphappening.
I ended up just making a fullswitch into video and just kind

(04:16):
of didn't look back.
I ended up just like prettymuch completely giving up audio
engineering.
I still do it from time to timefor like fun, but not
professionally anymore.
Just went full time into videoand just didn't look back and
it's been pretty fun since.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
No, that's awesome.
I remember because when we metI was almost around that time
because I met you at Voodoo.
My band was in there for aseason and you were engineer
there at the time and stillengineering and you know we just
cross paths here and there, buteventually I started following
your social media and then justseeing over the years I remember

(04:55):
I really started to notice theswitch to video and just knowing
like you became like the longiron music video person, at
least in the rock andalternative scene out here, and
seeing you do for local bandslike the Muck Rakers You've done
a couple of videos and seeingthat quality and just like the

(05:15):
insanity and so on, because withthe rock genre you can get
really creative and it's likeyou got so many directions you
can go with.
And then now seeing you rise upto some I would even I would say
very A list artists in themiddle in the rock world Just
the name of you from what I'veseen recently Lamb of God and
Buck Cherry and so it's beenphenomenal to see your growth in

(05:42):
that and just to see that likelame.
Because I think to give you,really to give you credit is
that music videos is a hard laneto really turn into, I would
say a living like to make thatyour core as a videographer.
Because I've seen some prettysuccessful videographers
struggle with the music videoworld because unfortunately and

(06:05):
you know this it's anyone that'snot backed by a label
financially.
The budgets are veryconstrained, they're hard.
And then you got that big jumpnow to label and a lot of these
labels have their guy.
They're the few core peoplethat they are, they're used to
so you know, and they're prettytight knit with those

(06:26):
corporations, you know.
But it's how you break throughthe fold and really just in an
organic way, it almost felt like, and would you agree with that
statement, or would you?
feel like I mean any pivotalmoments you remember with that.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
It's been like almost 10 years doing music videos,
which is kind of crazy to say.
But you know, the first fewyears were pretty slow, honestly
, and I think that's like thepart that's just easy to miss in
all of it is that, you know,the first three to four years
were kind of just like I wasn'tdoing, like my calendar was not
filled.
I was just out there trying todo music videos maybe I do one a

(07:04):
month at best, you know, andthat was kind of just, you know,
me trying to get my foot in thedoor and, do you know, whatever
I could at the time and I wasworking side jobs and stuff just
to pay the bills.
And then I eventually, you know, made the jump about like five
or six years ago, like that wasmaybe like four years in where I
was like all right, like nomore, like having another job,

(07:27):
like let me just like let go ofeverything and just like hustle
on music videos and like let'ssee if I can actually do it for
a living, let me see if I couldpay my bills doing it.
And you know, and how does thathustle look?
Like Just constantly out therereaching out to bands, artists
and just putting out like thebest work I possibly could,

(07:50):
trying to just stretch everybudget and make everything look
as cool as I could and anytime.
If I got like a labelopportunity, I would just like
just make sure that I put myhead down and make sure I could
deliver the best possible thing,because once you get like one
label project and one kind ofbigger artist, you can use that
to pitch to other people and itbecomes kind of this you know

(08:13):
just, you build a little bit ofa reputation.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
The credibility.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, you get a little bit of credibility.
So yeah, I mean it was.
It's just been years and yearsof just compounding work and
just networking and getting toknow people.
So, yeah, a lot of it's who youknow for sure.
But, like you know, expand thatover ten years, you start to
get to know a lot of people andAn interesting thing.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
You just said there was that even in the beginning,
when you were saying it was slow, you said maybe you did one a
month, so that was like you wereprobably doing.
Sounds like nine to twelvevideos a year?
Sure, yeah, and I feel likesome people hear that and
they're like you did that many,because some people may feel
like that's even hard for them,but what I'm hearing, though, is

(08:56):
just really like where thehustle is, that like you just
kept going, like you probablyasked so many people and got so
many like, yeah, we can't do itfor that budget, or like we just
have no budget.
And yeah, you're making thosecalls, and I'm sure some of
those were even like spec jobsor really like no budget, no
problem, which I know a lot ofus have we do in the beginning,
because we're just trying to get, for sure, I think, all your

(09:18):
pieces out there.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
I think like, if you're just starting out doing
some free gigs, this is not abad thing.
I know it has a big stink on it, you know.
But yeah, and obviously youdon't want to get caught in a
rut where everyone just expectsyou to do free work, like that's
not, it's not it either.
But I think you have to.
You have to get your foot inthe door somehow.
You have to prove that you canactually do what you say you can
do.
So I think doing a little bit offree works not the worst thing

(09:42):
in the world, if you couldafford to do it and you could
just get one or two projectsunder your belt and this way you
could show that to the nextperson, be like, hey, look what
I could do.
And like maybe that persondoesn't know that you did those
for free.
And then they're like oh, howmuch do you charge?
And you can be like, oh, like Xamount, and they might not
question it because it lookslike it's worth that much
because you hustle.

(10:02):
Then you really, you know, putyour all into it.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
I think the key takeaway was there is, like you
say once, you had one to twoprojects that you're proud of
under your belt.
That's when you start going islike, hey, oh, I did this video,
this and that I could dosomething like this for you,
maybe in the beginning, like fora grand 1500, whatever it is
you know, and then understandingwho you're talking to.
But they see the video andthey're like, yeah, that makes

(10:25):
sense, you know.
You know, I mean, we even had arecent conversation, you know,
and about my own band, because Ilove, they work and I remember,
just like when you, when you,when you were breaking down the
prices for me, I was like, yeah,100%, that's a great deal, you
know.
I'm saying because the qualityis there, you know.
But that's like with thecredibility, and I think

(10:45):
sometimes we're creators, wedon't give ourselves enough
credit about what's your goodspec job.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Oh my god, my, my first label gig I ever got was
off of a free video.
I did a video for free and it,you know, put like so much,
probably spent money on makingthis video.
I probably lost $500 makingthis video and it got it somehow
.
It got into the hands of thislabel and then they, you know,

(11:11):
they gave us like a five figurebudget to make a video.
I was like are you kidding me?
Like what do I do with this?
Like I don't even know.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
It's like I just spent money on this one.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, exactly so, like you never know who's gonna
see your video and who you knowlooks at that free or smaller
budget gig and thinks that itwas a lot more because you
really put a lot into it.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
You have to, you know , put a lot of your own mental
energy and yeah, and the factthat you're just pushing it out
there with whatever artist, butyou're also pushing it out there
yourself and yeah, and see younever know, it's like pushing it
out there might not go indirectly in the hands of trying
to push it in, but it may getinto somewhere else, like next
to you know.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
You never know.
I think that, like that's onething I've totally learned is
that you just never know what'scoming next.
You never know when it's gonnabe like an insane few months,
you never know when, like, it'sjust gonna dry up for a little
bit.
Like it's just you just keepgoing and that's it.
Like that's all you can do.
Like a lot of creators canrelate to that, I'm sure.
It's like some months it's likeyou can't even find a day for a

(12:12):
personal day, and then anothermonth and you're like I got like
maybe like a few projects, likea count on my hand at best, and
you know it's gonna wait forthe next stretch of craziness to
pass and that's just how itgoes oh man, oh man.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
I think I love to hear more about now that, like,
as you grew and everything likethat and you're been more
recently, you made this big leapinto VFX, into like programs
like Unreal Engine, which issuch a.
It's this whole.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
Category world.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
You know and I would love to hear maybe, of course,
how did that leap even happen?
And then also like, how's thatbeen, like you know for you.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
So been slowly kind of inching my way into doing a
lot of that stuff.
Sometimes I'll collaborate withVFX artists and you know I've
been doing that for years.
But there are other times whereI just want to like build
something myself or I have avery specific vision for, and I
never really had the capabilityto do that.
But like this year I really ILiterally bought a completely

(13:20):
separate computer in order to dounreal stuff because I had, you
know, I had like my MacBook Prolaptop that like I could fire
up final cut-on and edit videosall day on.
But you try to run this likesuper heavy CPU Eating VFX
program, like unreal, it's likecomputer just falls apart.
So I had to go buy like a likea tower PC, you know, just to

(13:42):
run unreal.
I'm like you know what I'm gonnainvest in this, I'm gonna learn
it, I'm gonna try to justincorporate this into my
workflow somehow, some way, andI just I put like 70 to 100
hours just like learning it.
I'm like I'm just gonna likelearn this and then figure it
out and hope for the best.
Hopefully people Can dig that.
You know being like worked intosome of my projects and shows.

(14:05):
Thanks, man, I I've been, youknow, slowly, kind of
implementing it more and moreinto my workflow.
But yeah, you know, I've donelike maybe three or four videos
in there now and I Feel likeeach time is a learning
experience, like it's such adeep program that you have to
really Spend a lot of time tolike figure out all the things

(14:25):
you can do, which is prettyexciting because, you know,
doing a band performance likethere were times where, like you
know, it's getting a littleuninspiring with the setups and
I wanted to like make somethingwhere I'm like, oh man, I wish I
could like build this crazyroom with all this stuff and you
either didn't have the budgetor we just Didn't have access to
a crazy location like that.
I'm like, oh, what if we trybuilding something crazy in,

(14:46):
like a program and that thatended up being like this kind of
gateway into just this wholeother world of being able to
Creatively express myself in adifferent way.
That wasn't like metraditionally just running
around with a camera and likejust being Present on a location
, but rather shooting stuff ongreen screening than creating

(15:06):
all of that in post, which islike a whole different process
and, you know, I don't know if Ilike it more or less, it's just
.
It's just another avenue that Iget to kind of toolbox.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, no, I love it.
I remember like seeing thosefirst couple videos.
I mean, like if you guys checkthem out on Instagram and or
check out the videos themselves,like the work, I thought it
blew me away.
Honestly, I thought it's socool some of the concepts that
you had going In these videos,and to find out like later, at a
later conversation we werehaving that, it's like, oh yeah,

(15:41):
I just learned it for thatvideo.
And in the beginning and I'mlike, I'm like this is this is
the the first try, or me firstreleased try.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
I don't like practice runs, but like that.
Probably the one you'rereferring to is the moon juice
video.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Exactly that with the storm and the fact that you
took them separately, all greenscreen separately, and then you
fuse them into it.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, you know it's that gave me more control of
putting them in each spot andjust kind of spreading them out
in like a In a world that I putthem and I shot each band member
, each on a green screen, justlike a standard, like 10 by 20
green screen.
You already had the vision inyour mind, where you like,
trying to match the lighting, orlike this I had like sort of an

(16:25):
idea like I wish I could say itwas like very Pre-visualized,
but like it was like a littlebit of shoot-and-pray and I just
was like I have to trust thatI'm just gonna figure this out,
like I.
There's so many times wherethat happens more than I'm
willing to admit.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Where it's like I think that happens for most.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, it's like you're like alright, like I know
I can do this and like if Ilight it this way, I could
probably make it happen.
So, yeah, I mean, lighting forthe scene is definitely helpful,
but uh, yeah, that one likethat was kind of like I'm just
gonna figure this out and I hopeit works and it did work.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
It worked, man.
It really it was, um, it was acool concept and they hear that,
like you, really just dove intoit.
I think it also showcases, like, your passion and commitment to
your vision, because, of course, like you, you wouldn't help
put in the hours to really getwhat you're envisioning out if
it wasn't for that.
You know, and I think of thatas shows in all your work, which

(17:19):
is what translates to yoursuccess too.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Oh, thanks.
And I mean there are so manytimes that I pitch ideas to
people that I'm not even surethat I can do them.
Yeah, and like, I'm likecrapping my pants, like, well,
like when they, when they acceptthe idea and they're like let's
do this, I'm like, oh man, Ihave to do it no and now I
actually have to figure this out, like it kind of freaks me out
a little bit and I, I, I, Iregularly just have so much

(17:44):
anxiety going into theseprojects that people have no
idea they're like, oh, you know,so he's doing.
I'm like man, I freaking hopeso, but uh, yeah, I, but part of
that is like exciting becauseyou're like all right, now I
actually have to figure this out.
And then then you do it andyou're like, wow, it actually
worked out and you know you lookgood.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
But man, it's like this is that creative problem
solving.
Yeah, it's kind of like it'sfunny for me.
It's like I relate to that somuch because there's a part of
me that loves a certain level ofchaos.
I love like shooting, I lovebeing on site, I love like the
work that happens in the day.
I'm not so not a bigger fan, asbig of a fan of the

(18:20):
post-production and stuff likethat, but I love like being in
it, directing, being acinematographer and Just like
handling things as they come,because for me it's such a
dialogue, you know, it's likethings are really important,
like things are happening.
They're speaking to you and thenyou're trying, like you go in
with the plan and the plansalready went out the window
after the first five seconds,anyways.

(18:41):
So you're just going as you'refiguring it out and you know so,
and I had the experience tokind of watch you in action.
Thankfully, like you, you youput out extras for a Lamborghini
shoot that's right which wasand it was such a cool shoot,
and so I went there as an extrabut like seeing you really like

(19:01):
run the set.
Now, of course, as at thatpoint you're an experience, you
know, and you're directing, butlike I kind of saw that like in
the moment you were reviewingthe footage and then you were
getting ideas and you're like,okay, and then you were
directing your guys so what kindof talk about like how you view
that dialogue of like the shootday and handling like this

(19:22):
higher profile Clients and stuffand you know just things that
can happen, and like how youview that and how you kind of
deal with that?

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, I mean you try to treat it all the same.
You know, like, if it's higherprofile or if it's somebody else
like, you try to treat it Allthe same.
I mean, obviously you mighthave a few more nerves on a
higher profile shoot, but youknow, going in you always want
to be as prepared as possiblewith some form of a shot list or
storyboard or something thatyou're sticking to for the day.
But in my experience, you canonly really map out like 75% of

(19:54):
it and then, like the rest islike You're gonna be inspired by
something that happens on setand you're like, oh well, that
happens, so we got to get thisnow and you have to be open to
those changes happeningorganically on set because, just
, no matter what video I've everbeen on, there's always like
one crazy stupid thing thathappens that you have to like

(20:14):
somehow course correct, andyou're like, ah, like you know,
main actor didn't show up, like,oh my god, what do I do now?
You know, I mean I got to startcalling people up like one of
the craziest things that youremember.
What is one of the craziestthings.
We were building a Stage thatwas supposed to be filled with

(20:36):
water and the band was supposedto look like they were like
Floating and standing on waterwhile they were playing.
It was a cool concept, but thatlike like we had to build like
an actual, like stage on set outof wood and like we thought we
had it perfectly built but itstarted leaking.
Oh, how much water was in thatthing.

(20:57):
So much water.
And like of course we're in thewarehouse that has like Like
millions of dollars worth oflike solar panels or something
crazy going on, so like water isliterally leaking out of this
thing.
We're all looking at each otherlike hundreds of we just start
grabbing buckets and just startlike empty in buckets, like into
the street.
We're like hoping that nothinggets wet.

(21:17):
Thankfully nothing did, but wehad to totally course correct on
that one.
It just be like all right,they're not standing on water
anymore, let's rearrange this,let's make it look this way and
then in post maybe I'll try todo some trickery and did a look
and grade it and did a workingout.
And, you know, client wasn'ttoo, you know, bugged by it.
But hey, man, things happen.
Sometimes you got to be able toroll with it, and you can't be

(21:38):
standing there sitting likelooking around like well, sorry
guys, it's game over, it's likeno, you got to, you got to
figure something out.
You got to just confidently belike this is what we're doing
now and it's gonna look awesomeand we're gonna keep moving
forward, and you know that's allyou can do, really.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
I think that's such a Important attitude to have to,
especially when you're dealingwith clients like they.
As long as you give face that,like we got this, they'll go for
the most part will always belike okay, you know, because
they just have no idea what'shappening.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Anyways, to begin with, yes, sometimes they do too
.
But I think just having likethat like decision-making muscle
and really working on that andlike Try to not sit there and be
too like, like just just getused to like making decisions
and kind of trusting like yourgut on a lot of things and just

(22:29):
you know you could alwaysbackpedal something later, like
there's been so many times thatI like either came up with an
idea On set and then I saw itand I'm like, no, no, that's
terrible, stop, stop, just reset.
Let me just rethink that.
Let's go this way instead.
And you know, as long as youcan, you know comfortably admit
when something's not good thatyou came Up with, yeah, that's.
You know, people respect thattoo, because they're like,
alright, he's not just like someegotistical, crazy guy who's

(22:52):
just like confidently sayingwhatever and like you know, you
got to be able to be humble,yeah, and like take criticism
from people and like, even ifit's somebody who's Not
qualified to say something, andthey say something and they're
like, oh, like you know, is itweird that that reflection's not
there in that shot?
And like I'm like oh yeah,that's actually.
you're actually right, I shouldprobably Reset up that shot to

(23:15):
make sure that's right.
Thank you, you know like ahundred percent.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
Just having good people who are honest around you
help so much and being open tothat, like you said, oh, yeah,
you mean it late, like becauseat the end it's like the goals
to get a great video.
Yeah, it's not the booster oneagle, no, yeah, I mean my guys
around me.
Humble all the time, humble meall the time.
Oh yeah, it happens, yeah,especially when you're like,
because you, you know, sometimes, when you're directing things

(23:40):
and you're being the visionary,it's like you're so macro
sometimes that the micro king isslipped by.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, we're the other way around, like it can
definitely happen and havingother people around you to kind
of have that alternateperspective.
It's definitely importantsometimes, for sure that's
awesome, Is there?

Speaker 1 (23:56):
um?
Is there a particular videothat you're really proud about,
or anything that you pulled offthat you're like wow.
I don't know if I could pullthat off again, but like that
was you.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
I would say.
I mean there's definitely a few, but one with like a pretty
good story to go along with isthe first Lambda God video I've
done.
I did four of them.
The first one, for Memento Mori, I co-directed with Mike Watts
and we got the call to do thatvideo, maybe seven to 10 days
before it had to be shot, and ithad to be shot in Richmond,

(24:30):
virginia.
We had to assemble a crew, godown there, get locations, get
all these makeup artists, crazypeople like all in a room
together and we were like howthe heck are we going to do this
in like seven to 10 days?
We got to get down there.
You know we were trying to lookup flights.
It wasn't working outbudget-wise.
We were like man.
So Mike had this crazy idea torent like a Winnebago and just

(24:52):
like take our Long Island crewand throw like eight of us in a
Winnebago and just drive downthere with all of the gear to
make it happen.
I love it.
This is a great idea.
And like we're just like drivingdown, like chilling, like it
was wild, and we didn't havelike any location set up at all,
to the point that like we gotdown there and we had like the

(25:17):
first scene of the video wassupposed to take place in a
laundromat and we're like, allright, we got all the locations.
What about the laundromat?
Like all right, how hard is itto find a laundromat in Richmond
?
Apparently really hard.
We were looking around I'm likeand like we walked into a few
and they were like so weird andlike not working out, like they
were crazy people like runningaround and like coming up to us

(25:39):
asking us for like drugs andstuff.
I'm like I am not.
We're not bringing the ban here.
This is not happening.
So at like 11 pm the nightbefore we were shooting what are
the biggest artists I've everworked with we had to like email
a major label and be like, heyguys, we got to do something

(25:59):
different for the first sceneand we literally made it like
thankfully, one of the likefriends down there had like a
tattoo shop Okay, the Sinisteriacrew, who are awesome, they had
a tattoo shop down there thatlet us use it.
And if you look at the firstscene of that video where he's
like mopping the floors in thetattoo shop, like that was not
supposed to be in a tattoo shop,it just ended up that was just

(26:19):
the spot we like had access toat the very last minute.
Label was just like all right,whatever.
Do you think you know we?
Trust you and I got and youknow it ended up working out.
It ended up looking cooler.
Anyway, it was really cool.
But yeah, that was one of thosethings where, like you wouldn't
expect something crazy likethat to happen on such like a
like high profile shoot, butthey happen, you know things

(26:42):
like that happen.
You just got to be ready to belike all right, like this is
what we're doing now and justtrust that it's all going to be
okay.
Even if it's not, you make itokay some way.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
I think, I think that's a big myth.
You know, that they say is likeeverything that happens on
small shoots, they happen on bigshoots too.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
They just throw money at it.
There's no difference.
There's more money to throw atit.
You could throw money at yourproblems on bigger shoots for
sure.
But sometimes you can.
You just have to like.
Sometimes you have a fixedbudget and you still have that
limit anyways.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
So it's like it's not that like.
Proportionally it's almost thesame.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, stuff goes wrong.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Just because you have the money doesn't mean that it
all magically doesn't go wrong.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
No, yeah, yeah, definitely.
So you know you have to dowhatever you got to do sometimes
, oh, that's, that's crazy, youknow.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
and again, at the end of the shoot, it looks great.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
No one knows the wiser.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
No one is the wiser.
No, that's crazy.
And then I think one of yourmost recent at least released.
I'm sure you're working onplenty of projects right now,
but was Buck Cherry, I thinkcame out like a month ago, right
?

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, did two videos, for Buck Cherry went out to LA
and shot both of them in thesame trip, literally back to
back days.
You know they had they wantedtwo videos done back to back
days.
That's.
That's something that happenspretty frequently actually,
where it's like a label orsomebody is like hey, we want to
shoot two videos, let's just dothem back to back.
The band isn't touring at thistime so we can do them, but they

(28:11):
got to be like one day afterthe other so you got to be ready
to shoot two videos back toback locations.
Everything there is like linedup two days in a row, so like
that could be its own.
You know craziness sometimes,but yeah, those were fun videos.
We did like a crazy trace facetransformation on one of them

(28:32):
and like had people like turninginto zombies and stuff, and
that was like kind of anotherone where we pitched the idea
and I'm like all right, I'm justgoing to have to figure this
one out.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
How'd you pull?

Speaker 2 (28:40):
that one off.
Oh, like it was crazy.
We had to like face track withlike a mesh on people's faces
and then like insert images andlike make sure that they
interacted with the mouthsproperly.
It was, it was I like I didn'tknow how to do it at all.
I was just like I can figurethis out.
It was a lot of figuring outbefore it was like even close to

(29:02):
looking acceptable, but yeah,it was one of those things.
It was like all right, likethis is the idea we got to
figure it out.
It's like it's either I figuredout or I like spend everything
I was going to make on the videoon like somebody who knows how
to do it.
I like some crazy VFX hours orI figured out myself and just
like you know?

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Hey, that's, that's definitely the name of the game,
for sure.
Oh, that's crazy.
And that one was part of theone that just came out, or is
that the one that came out?
So there were two that justlike came out.
The both of them came out, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
The one with like the fire in the background.
Yeah, so that was day two, weshot that that was an LED wall
background that we had, okay,and that was cool, you know that
was just like a performancevideo.
Buck Cherry.
Looking like Buck Cherry.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, cool, as hell rocking out yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
You know that one was definitely easier to pull off
than the first one.
I'd say, yeah, the first one wehad to like rent out a mansion,
get like a whole bunch ofpeople there for a party.
A bunch of extras had to do theface warping stuff, so like it
was a much larger production.
We had like at least 70 to 100people there for the shoot, so
like it was a lot going on.

(30:16):
And that's another thing thatis super hard to get used to is
when you have a largerproduction, like trying to
figure out like what amount ofenergy you're going to spend on
like wrangling people to getthem ready for a shot, or, you
know, focusing on the monitor oh, did I miss something with the
lighting?
Yeah, you know, it's hard tokind of divide yourself with

(30:38):
that stuff, and that's where itcan become stressful, where it's
like you're focusing way moreon like the logistical
preparation of a shot and likemaking sure everything's right
with, like, the people, and thenyou're not paying attention to
the camera.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
And so for a shoot like that, would you ever get
like a, maybe like an AD?
Yes, I mean, that's definitelywhere I was going with it on the
Buck Cherry shoot.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
We had a larger crew, so those things were able to be
outsourced to other people onset who you know.
It's like this is your job Makesure all the people show up.
It's like there's a front gatethat keeps locking.
Make sure they can keep gettinginto that gate.
Make sure the parking's okay,we're not blocking any driveways
, we don't get the cops calledlike.
There's so many little detailslike that that, like you can

(31:22):
easily get sidetracked, tryingto just like basically patch all
the holes in the boat the wholetime instead of trying to drive
the ship you know.
So like that's.
It's really good.
That's where you start to learnthat you have to have more
people on set for things likestarting out like I would just
like solo shoot and editseverything and like it's.

(31:44):
You can do that on small scaleprojects.
But when you have a lot ofpeople run around on a set and
you have multi of makeup artists, you have set designers you
have you know people and thenyou have people from the label
there, looking like you got tohave multiple people that you
can rely on, like a team thatcan step in and help you out.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
No, a hundred percent .
A hundred percent and no, Imean it's just great.
I just keep thinking ofdifferent examples of different
videos, yeah, yeah.
But I would love to hear kindof like with the projects now,
because I know like you've beengetting a definitely more and

(32:23):
more referrals and differentthings like that at your level,
like you find yourself now kindof more pick and choosing
projects and or you know, as Ikind of like having that liberty
, because I know it's like at acertain point you definitely get
more of that.
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
I'm definitely more of a yes man than I.
You know.
I see my guess.
I like just taking on a wholerange of projects.
I say in the music video worldI'm pretty open to a lot of
different projects.
I don't, I don't say no veryoften, you know, I like, I like
variety.
You know what I mean.
I like to kind of just, youknow if something, if there's a

(33:03):
project where something seemslike unsafe or like just crazy,
like I'll try to redirect it,and if that doesn't work, then
obviously it's not going to workout.
But like it's so, so rare thatI ever say like just no, you
know what I mean.
Yeah, you know there.
You know there are projectsoutside of music video work
where somebody's like hey, canyou like fill my daughter's

(33:25):
sweet 16, or something where I'dbe like, ah, I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Don't blame you on that one.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, like I could, I could send you to somebody who
would be more you know into that.
So I guess you know, over theyears I've definitely gotten it
to where it's really just musicvideos for the most part.
Yeah, you know I'll take onlittle things here and there
outside of music videos, but I Itry to keep my focus where you
know I enjoy it and that's doingmusic videos and that's.

(33:51):
You know, if I could fill up mycalendar doing music videos,
why not?
You know it's, it's fun.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
It is.
It's fun.
Personally, one of my favoritethings to shoot as well.
You know music videos and youknow not as many as yours under
your belt, but I love the onething that I personally always
loved about it is the creativefreedom involved.
It's a lot like films, becausethat's what they are For me.

(34:19):
That's what they are.
They're little films basedaround the story of the song,
you know, or whatever conceptthe artist wants to portray,
because sometimes they don'thave to really go along with the
lyrics.
Definitely you got thatlooseness you know with the
story and I know you're veryinvolved with the concept and
with directing, really, and DP.

(34:39):
So and those are your mainfortes, I would say was there.
I'd love to hear if there wasany like one you think was
particularly unique or one thatstood out to you in the sense of
where the story reallyconnected you know, yeah, I mean

(34:59):
I love shooting storylines formusic videos.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
That's like so much fun because you're basically
making like short films that goalong with the videos and like
that's cool, cause like I don'tknow if I'd ever really get into
doing like feature films, likenot to say that I totally
wouldn't, but I guess I'm tooADD for it.
You know, I like I like justdoing like one video and then be
like all right, that one's done.
Let me start with somethingfresh.

(35:23):
Like you know, I was the sameway when I was writing songs.
I finished like half a song,throw it out and starting.
But yeah, I mean I, I likevideos that are challenging and
sometimes an artist will come tome, like the band Covet Evette.
She'll come to me with somecrazy idea and like I'm like I
don't know if we can do it, butlet's try.

(35:44):
She, you know it was like hey,why don't we try like some stop
motion animation and like we'rejumping out of planes and we're
playing our instruments.
I'm like that sounds insane.
I don't know if I'm even theguy for that.
And she was like no, no, youcan do it.
I'm like, all right, cool, letme try, let me see what I could
do.
And we sat there for like days.
She would like draw the cloudsand like draw like four

(36:06):
different clouds.
I would like lock the camera ona tripod, shoot those four
clouds and like import them andlike position them.
And then, like we, we had tolike green screen the band
members and make them look likedrawings too.
And she drew the plane and Ihad to like animate the plane in
, like manually it was.
It was kind of crazy.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
That's crazy so much that.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
like there were birds like flapping their wings, like
we had to draw the birds indifferent, like hand flapping
positions and then getting themin the right sequence.
Yeah.
And then we just like sequencethem and loop them and I'm like,
oh, we can do this.
Yeah, you know, slowly butsurely we, we gained more
confidence as we went and I'mlike, wow, that's kind of crazy,
I haven't done a stop motionvideo since.
But it's just like sometimes yougotta prove and that was that's

(36:50):
a label project.
So like I had no business.
Like I had no business sayingyes to that.
You know what I mean?
Like there was like there wasno reason, like where I was like
yeah, I can do that.
I was like I just said I coulddo it and then just like figured
it out and like that's like the.
That's so much of these biggerprojects.
Sometimes it's just like youjust have to like throw yourself

(37:10):
to the wolves and just be likeall right, like I either figure
it out or what.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
Like I'm not going to , I don't know I mean Richard
Branson has a great quote likethat say, say yes, and then
figure it out after the fact.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, and it's like obviously prepare yourself the
best you can going in.
But like, of course, just Ifeel like if I would have said
no, that I'm not the guy forthat, I would have completely
closed that door and probablynever would have tried it,
because I don't know.
Stop motion, that's like.
That's like a whole differentcraft, same with a lot of the
VFX stuff that I've beenexperimenting with.
It's like I feel like you knowinside, it's like you know,

(37:47):
everyone has a little bit ofthat imposter syndrome of like
100% and like kind of rightfullyso.
If you don't have anyexperience in doing something,
like on a certain scale or likesome idea, so, like you know,
understandable that you wouldwant to say like no, I'm not the
person.
But like what if you just saidlike yeah, I could do it, and
then you just try it and maybeyou figure it out?

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, I mean, I think and I think with like our
medium it's creative and I feellike what I always tell people
like, especially when it comesto like live sound and different
things like that, is like twonumber one skills.
First is Tetris Can you pack upa van as tightly as possible?
And because half the time we'repacking up equipment in places

(38:30):
that don't fit.
But the second thing istroubleshooting.
You creatively problem solve,because it's not about when,
it's not about if something goeswrong, it's when it goes wrong.
It's not about if you can, it'slike if you can do something,
how can you do it?
Like that's because most of thetime it's like, because it's

(38:52):
creative, it's something in yourmind and now you have to make
it a reality.
And your discipline is aboutlearning the tools that so you
can create the creative, thething that's in your head out in
the real world.
And we do it on a visual medium, you know, but it's never like

(39:12):
a cookie cutter thing, becausethen it's not an original idea.
You know, you can get inspo andthat's, that's a whole thing.
But that's still that's for me,like using inspiration still
created, because it's like youdon't have a step by step of how
they made it.
You're trying to figure it outyourself and you're like using
what you know and then maybetrying to figure out what you
need to learn and what you needto know so you can do it, and it

(39:35):
really shows.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah, for sure.
I think that like there's somany ideas that like you can
make them look bigger than theyshould have looked if you just
spent more time on the creativeaspect of it.
I had a client one time whowanted it to look like they were
playing inside of like a cubemade of like like tubes and like

(39:56):
we didn't have the budget forlike a cube of tubes.
We just didn't have it and likeI feel like those are more
common these days, like youcould see those and like rent
those out, but this was likemaybe five years ago, when like
the tubes were kind of likepretty new.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Honestly, and like pretty expensive.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, they're really expensive.
So, like we only had like thesmaller ones and he wanted to
look at he was playing inside ofhim, like, oh man, how do we do
this?
So we set up just a square oftubes in the background and then
in the foreground we basicallypositioned them with stands, so
the camera was static.

(40:33):
We positioned four other tubeslike going toward them, as like
the leading lines going towardthe tubes, but like we basically
like did a forced perspectivewhere, like those were like 10
feet back but the tubes closerto the camera were like three
feet away and we basically justlike traced like lines that made
it look like they were goinglike 20 feet.

(40:54):
But just the way they werepositioned, they were angled
properly where, like you believethat they were playing inside
of a cube.
If you move the camera likethree inches, like it would have
broke the illusion it wouldhave been done for.
But the fact that we were ableto like make it look like the
set design was like insanelyhuge but with just like small
four foot tubes you can getcreative with smaller.
You know, that's objects andstuff.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Such an amazing example of like like creative
problem solving becauseliterally you're, you're forcing
perspective using thecombination of your focal length
, the distance of thepositioning, yeah, and just from
this one locked off angle itseems seamless.
It's like um Hollywood does itall the time with miniatures.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
Yeah, for sure, you still see that stuff sometimes.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
I mean you look at the Charlie Chaplin stuff where
they overlay things on windows,that's incredible If you ever
look at the stuff they did backin the 20s or 40s, whatever it
was like.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
some of that stuff is still cooler than what they're
doing today 100% you ever seelike the.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
there was one, I just .
I've seen it a couple of timesnow, but I thought it was so
insane.
It was like skating close tothe edge.
Yeah, I know, I knew you weregoing to talk about it.
It was like an infinite room,that was insane because that was
like he.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
He made it to that.
And that was another one whereif you move the camera, just
slightly.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
slightly, it would break the illusion Completely.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
Yeah, it was like a matte painting or something like
that.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah, it was a matte painting on like one section of
this plexiglass.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Right.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Probably was solid glass because I don't think they
really had plexiglass thatclear back then, yeah, so it was
probably solid glass, and thenthey had the full set behind it
and so they're filming throughthis glass but it's like
perfectly lined up with the edge.
I love that.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
And then he's just like I mean yeah, well, like in
the old great performer, yeah,the old Star Wars films they
would do matte painting of likeall, like the army soldiers like
all the super wide shots.
A lot of times it's just like astatic shot of like a painting
and like it just works.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
And it has so much life.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, the film like that was crazy.
I mean, nowadays you can do itwith VFX.
You could do set extensions.
That's really popular now,where you have an artist or
somebody in the foreground.
Then there's screen screen withlike track markers and if the
camera's moving you can buildlike a huge set that just keeps
going behind them and that'skind of a way to One effect.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
I remember a while ago that I saw from one of your
videos that I was like Iabsolutely love this.
This is so cool Because the VanGogh when he went to the
painting and then everyone inthe video discuss this van, that
was for Julian Karens.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
And yeah, I actually collaborated with Kyle Monroe,
who's an awesome VFX artist,because, like I was trying to
figure it out, I was like, howare we doing like painting and
stuff like that?
And he had this way of likedoing, like not frame by frame,
but he was able to kind of do itlike that where, you know, he
was able to take each frame,apply some sort of effect to it
and then just sequence it andI'm like that looks insane.

(43:49):
So, like we had to, instead ofhaving an actual painting they
were touching, we basically justlike went out into the world,
like, say, there was a brickwall they were walking up to.
We just put a big green screenin front of the brick wall and
then just like completelyfabricated whatever they were
touching on the wall so thatthey could like go into the
paintings.
So we had to like bring greenscreen backdrops with us

(44:09):
everywhere.
We went into like the woods andstuff it was.
It was pretty crazy, yeah.
I mean it goes to show what youcan do with very minimal stuff
Like I don't think we, even likewe the lighting was terrible
outside.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
I was going to say, like, how'd you do the lighting
for the green screen?

Speaker 2 (44:24):
I mean, like you know , realistically on a hard Sunday
you should have like some sortof floppies or anything like uh
something up the light and nope,we just literally went out
there, green screen blown in thewind, just wishing for the best
.
And yeah, I'm sure the key jobwas just a nightmare, but you
know hey they pulled it off.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
I mean I was thinking I just saw that.
I was like yo, this is magic,this is awesome, like it's so
cool.
And it's fun even like thethings on the wall.
Yeah, I was thinking that youwere putting green screen like
in the paintings or like in thatspecific spot, but like we
probably could have.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Honestly, there are so many times like we do
something and we go back andwe're like this would have been
so much easier if we just didthis Like I think one time there
was like an entire like livingroom of windows and I had like
four different green screenblankets hanging outside those
windows and we were just goingto key out each one of the
windows and put like a citybehind it.

(45:18):
And then after that fact we'relike, ah, like this, this just
would have been way easier.
We just green screened the wholething and forgot about the
window frames and just figured.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Someone just walk in when you're editing a project
and they look like, oh, that'sso cool, did you just do this
and this?
And then you're like listeningto like, that sounds so easy,
he's right.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
I mean, I've had people sit on edits before where
I'm struggling and I hate, likewhen they're looking over my
shoulder shoulder wall and liketrying to think, like when it's
like a regular edit wherethere's no VFX, like sitting on
the edit, no problem.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
But like anytime you see, like a draft or something
like that.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
But like if I'm doing VFX, like people don't realize
the amount of just experimentingthat goes on with that.
And sometimes they're like oh,that doesn't look good, and I'm
like I know it doesn't look good.
Give me like 30 more tries andthen maybe it'll start to look
good.
And then we can talk, you knowlike, but I'm just trying to get
the basic idea.
Yeah, I can just experimentthrow stuff at the wall until it

(46:18):
sticks.
That's a lot of times with likeVFX stuff is just you just have
to keep working it untileventually it starts to look
like.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
so I mean a lot of people who are, like, not
intimately involved in thisworld.
They don't understand, like,how unprocessed things really
are, you know, before you getthe final product.
I think a lot of people,because a lot of people kind of
look at a world now from acontent creator standpoint, from
a you know iPhone creative toyou know, because, yeah, they,

(46:47):
that does so much basicprocessing for you.
Yeah, they kind of like thinkit's like, oh, if you have a
high-end camera, it's like ahigh-end version of this, like
it's already graded indifference, like, no, you pay a
lot but you get the raw mostinformation, but it looks the
worst.
Right, right out of camera,right out of camera and it's

(47:08):
like and then you, because I'vehad that with clients where you
know- I have this being like theraw image.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Can I look?

Speaker 1 (47:14):
at it immediately or I need to double check.
I'm like hey, I just want totriple check that the
composition is in the ballparkof where we're heading with this
, you know, or something likethat.
You know, and sometimes I likewhy does it look like that?

Speaker 2 (47:26):
And you're like I had a client ask me for raw footage
recently.
Oh man, and like I was like doI just send them the raw, like
red files, and just like havethem a Not be able to open them.
And then, when they do, they'rejust like why is it?
Look washed out and like weird.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
And we're like.
You don't understand it, I'mgonna skip this whole part.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
I'm just gonna stretch all these clips out and
just color all of them and justexport it as one big thing and
be like here's everythingcolored nice and leave a nice
for you.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
So and and I've learned that the hard way with a
few clients in the verybeginning I'm like, yeah, it's
like, and then you realize theyreally have zero idea.
And then they and you know, andit's like okay.
So that's where, like Iexplained, like for me, like
sometimes we do a wedding everyonce in a boomerow now, usually
for people that are personalconnections right, and and

(48:17):
sometimes they'll ask to say, oh, can we get the raw footage too
?
And then that's where I like,what do I do with this?

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Well, no, what I?

Speaker 1 (48:24):
do now is I impose a fee because it's like we're
gonna have to process it, you'renot gonna do anything with this
raw like washed out footage.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
And what are you gonna give him?
Like a folder of audio to tryto sync up to like exactly.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Why does none of this sound accurate?
Yeah, yeah.
So it's like no, it's like okay, well, and I, you know, it's
just having that like grace andit's like knowing.
That's like yeah, we can't eversend like things.
It's like I have to at leastget it to a ballpark where it
looks decent.
It's different if it's like anagency or somebody who's
actually If?

Speaker 2 (48:57):
they're like hey, give us the raw footage, we know
what we're looking at.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
Yeah that's.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
That's a different ask, but yeah, somebody who
somebody who doesn't know whatthey're doing with the footage.
Yeah, you got to give himsomething that looks pretty
clean, oh yeah, I think that's.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
That was like a thing .
That's like you could reallysave yourself a big headache
from that.
Yeah, that's for sure.
Yeah, especially from reactionsand you have to explain and you
know, and they don't understand.
Um, well, we got a littlesidetracked it on that one.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
No worries, I mean what I feel like.
I don't know a ton about whattype of work you do most.
I know we started chattingabout it before, but like what,
what is it that you kind of findyourself doing a lot?

Speaker 1 (49:36):
So right now we're diving pretty like netting down,
I would say, into the arts andcultural institution space with
museums and some nonprofits andsuch.
So we do a lot of work for someEast End museums here right now
, like the parish and theWatermill Museum and Now.

(49:56):
But we're looking for, we'relooking towards expanding that,
you know.
So it's like a lot of artists,interviews, live streams of
talks and different things likethat.
I love working with artists andand we're trying to do a couple
different things outside ofthat.
So like that's one venturethat's like with the production
side, we have the podcast, ofcourse, yeah, trying to build up

(50:19):
the studio in itself to be inmore of a product commercial
space and In a photo shoot space.
But we developed the like theproduct shoots in here and
Outside of that.
I mean we in the beginning, Ithink, like anybody who you just
started doing a little bit ofeverything.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
The phone ranks and you say yes, yes, exactly, can I
?
Can you film my dog taking acrap?
Yeah, yes.
Yes, great $50, I'll do it.
I'll be there tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
In the beginning.
I heard a great quote.
It was says like in thebeginning you do for what you
can get.
Then you start to do it forwhat it costs.
You know, okay, get it out,yeah.
And then you do it for thevalue of the outcome.
The ROI typically more ofcommercial.
Sure why so.

(51:07):
And those are like the threestages that a lot of people go
through as, and I found it truefor us, like in the beginning,
we were definitely in whateverwe can get.
We did real estate, we didweddings, oh yeah, music videos
for sure, little small businesscommercials, different things
like that.
But now that we've entered intothat the cost and really like

(51:28):
expanding that, figuring outbudgets and Building into like
those three arenas, kind of nowthat we're doing separating our
social medias and stuff, I'mreally trying to niche down
those areas.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yeah, I feel like with the more you can niche down
, niche, niche, I feel like Inever say that word right, and
I'm just never, I think if orget, if or give Gif.
I thought would be like J I ffright, but it's gif, I don't
know, never mind.
But anyway, as you niche downyou, you tend to get happier
because like you're just doingstuff that you want to do,

(51:59):
that's like fulfilling to youand you're not like begrudgingly
doing something because, likeyou need the money or something
like that.
Because I feel like at first,like you're trying to just fill
up your calendar as much as youcan, because like, yes, you're
happy to be doing it full-time,but like you're just trying to
fill out your calendar so youcan pay your bills and like,
yeah, yes, you're obviouslygreat, you're like a scarcity
mindset.

(52:20):
Yeah, you're like you're likeall right now, like people are
calling me, yes, yes, yes, yes,and you just say yes to
everything so you can, you know,feed yourself.
But then, once that phasepasses and you're like, okay,
like I have a filled calendarevery month, like let me try to
just Start niching down anddoing the projects that I really
, really want to do, and I thinkthat that's a lot of people's

(52:41):
stories, like they start off bydoing every type of video where
possible and they kind of figureout what you like.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, you know, and then it's like okay, this is
where I'm gonna be.
Yeah, and then it's it's funnywhen you do that, the budgets
grow and then you don't have todo as many projects at once, you
know and well, you get betterat it.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
So obviously you know you can demand more and the
client to Vendor relationship.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
I'm not sure if that's the right way to say it,
but I'm just saying Client tovendor relationship tends to be
calmer with the way andespecially that range.
I'm sure you've founded that,like some of the higher end,
maybe not a hundred percent ofthe time, but for most of the
time, like from what I've seenwith the bigger budgets, and
when you're dealing with, like,bigger corporations, they're

(53:29):
more like you're the expert,this is what we want.
We trust you to do it.
Yeah, just have it to us.
They see it and they're like oh, that's great, thank you,
here's your money.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Yeah, on that level, it's like they assume a certain
level of professionalism byreaching out to you and like
they did yeah, they trust youmore.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
They do, versus direct to client at the lower
budget.
They did, and it's not likeanybody's fault is that.
They're trying to get as muchas they can out of the budget.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Sure, yeah, I mean that's on both sides.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Yeah, that's pretty common and I just remember a big
realization I had was so many.
If my calendar is filled withso many of these lower end you
know, I don't have the space onmy calendar to accept the bigger
things that are coming, so Iactually have to leave.

(54:17):
I had to start leavingavailability for the jobs I do
want and stop saying yes to thejobs that I'm like okay, these
are no longer serving me.
I don't want to continue them.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
See, that sounds like the smart way to do it, where
it's like what I did was likethe really unhealthy way to do
it, which is basically back itoff anymore, just like Create so
much work that I'm drowning,and I'm just like, how do I
survive?
I phones ringing like where'smy project, where's my project?
And I'm like, ah, and then likeI just get crazy and then, you
know, eventually implode at somepoint.

(54:47):
But no, yeah, like that soundslike the right way to do it and
I feel like me, I just was justlike yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes to the bigger one, yes, yes,yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
And then, like I just like, will sometimes, and it
still happens from time to time,like I implode it to I think, I
think, I think we are anexperienced some sort of like
creative overload.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
It's not even like the creative overload, it's just
like you bite off way more thanyou could chew and then you're
just trying to figure it out andyou just figure it out.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
You know what I get on top of it and you learn for
the future.
Yeah, move a little more smoothsailing the next time until you
reach the nurse, next nurse,next hurdle.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
Oh man, yeah, like I think that's that's, that's just
as much of a challenge.
Just like when you don't haveenough work, that's scary.
But like when you have too muchwork and like you said yes to
too many things in like a smallbracket of time, that could be
scary too, because you're likeoh yeah, I'm just counting down
the time until, like, somebodystarts like getting a little bit
like hey, where's my thing?

(55:47):
And I'm like, and that's forthe priority shift.
You're like, oh my god, Ireally got to like work my face
off to try to get this all done,but you, you figured out.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Yeah, you know you get it through and I think I
think group will very familiarwith that.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, but it's fun.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
You know, like at the end of the day, it's like I
have to remind myself like thisis fun, like I've had stupid
jobs that like I hated, and Ihave friends that went to school
and they still don't like thecareer they ended up in.
They really don't.
So, like I think if, if you'redoing this as a career, like by
default, you have to like stepback sometimes and just be like

(56:26):
like I get to do this for aliving.
That's insane.
Like I can't believe itsometimes that I get to and I
have to remind myself of thatwhenever I get overwhelmed and
stressed out on set or like withan editor or something and I'm
like ready to throw my computerout the window or something I
got to just like step back andbe like hey man, I get to do
this for like.
I get to like play around withcameras and like bands and stuff

(56:48):
for a living.
That's not normal.
So you have to, you know, countyour blessings on that.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
Just being in a creative field in general is
just such a blessing.
But we have to have create likegrace with ourselves.
Because we are tend, we tend tobe our worst, like on ourselves
, you know, and even if, yeah,every once in a while you'll get
a really harassy client, that'spart of the game.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
But in any industry.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
I think you know and but that's like, that's a,
that's the exception.
Usually I don't find it that Um, and by most of the time we're
just as hard as on ourselves.
So it's like wait, you knowwhat it's like.
What do I want to do?
I want to do this at a biggerscale, but it's this, and I'm
already doing it too.

(57:33):
You know, technically, I'mliving it right now.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
Oh yeah, I all the time I beat myself up and just
kind of get crazy over.
You know the little things oflike oh, I'm not good enough at
this, this person's better.
Like why am I not at this point?
Like it's easy to do thatbecause it's just.
You know, any person who'screatively driven obviously
wants to keep growing and youknow we all want it to happen
like immediately.

(57:56):
But you know we have to reallyjust appreciate the fact that
our time's up Apparently.
There we go, baby.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
Can you close that up ?

Speaker 2 (58:08):
No, it's all good man .
No, no worries, Should we?

Speaker 1 (58:10):
wrap it up.
Well, I'll have one more.
We'll keep going for a littlebit.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
I didn't know that was like that wasn't supposed to
happen.
You're done.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
Yeah, no.
No, that wasn't supposed tohappen.
I think the audio settings gotreset on the computer, that's
okay.
Let's go edit this out.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
I thought that was going to be like an eject button
.
I just get tossed onto thecaribre or something.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
It's very through the ceiling right, yep, but no, I
think I had two, two, two morequestions.
Really that I wanted to dive in.
I would love to hear yourperspective on still, and one
was really so.
You've had your experience ineach space of the whole video
process.
Like you said, there's stillvideos you're doing from
beginning to end, but I reallysee your bread and butter really

(58:53):
big and in the deep director,photography and just plain
director, you know and do youwhat do you find yourself like
really, if you like, gravitatingtowards, like, say, when you do
get?
to which position like that, asfar as those different positions
go, like you know, becausesometimes when you grow like,

(59:13):
you have that liberty to expanddecision and of course you could
be a snack Zack Snyder and justbe like, yeah, I'm director,
but I'm holding the camera halfthe time right, if not most of
the time, you know.
Or you could be like you know,I really want to just focus on
the vision and, you know, workwith a DP that I trust.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
Yeah, I know guys who you know.
As they grew, they kind ofhanded off the DP position to
somebody else.
And I have a hard time doingthat.
I don't know if it's just thatlike I love holding the camera,
it's really fun to me and like Ilove finding the frame and just
getting stuff right, and it'snot to say I would never hand

(59:52):
that position off.
I think there's, like if Ifound somebody that I really
clicked with, who like trulyunderstood my vision, the way
that like I didn't have to likeverbalize every little thing, I
could just lean on them and belike, yeah, that's what I'm
looking for, I would, I would beopen to working with another, I
would entertain the idea.

(01:00:12):
I just feel like I I don't know,maybe I'm a control freak or
something, I just don't knowwhat it is.
I love having the camera in myhand.
That's like fun for me.
Part of the fun is just likerunning around.
Like sometimes I'll go handheldand, like you know, that's hard
to kind of teach like kind ofbeing in the right spot and like
finding the frame.
And like a lot of the times I'mlike coming up with weird stuff

(01:00:33):
on the fly that like how couldI even verbalize like?
Like on a downbeat, I'll likefling the camera around in some
like weird way that like I don'tknow if it's going to work, but
like it's the instinct.
Yeah, it's like I'm like.
I feel like I'm like dying onmy own sort if it doesn't work,
whereas like if, like somebodyelse was DP for me, they might
not take that creative risk thesame way.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Who else has your segue skills?

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Dude the segues.
That's so much fun to me.
I love riding the segue around.
That was an idea I saw like 10years ago or like not even 10
years ago.
But like I saw some guy on oneof the like the smaller ones,
like the little swag wayscooters or whatever, and I was
like that's a great idea and Istarted using one of those but
like the wheels weren't bigenough so I'd like get caught on
stuff and trip.

(01:01:18):
And then I went out and justbought like one of the bigger
segues and man, it's so much funbecause, like I love shooting
handheld but like it's notalways steady.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
So like the ninja walks is not good enough.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
If you, if you get on some wheels and go handheld,
you kind of get the best of bothworlds because like it's smooth
, but I also get the freedom tolike creatively frame things,
whereas, like with a gimbal orsomething like, I feel like the
gimbal is never as fast as Iwant it to be to reframe
something and you're always kindof like I didn't quite catch
the composition I wanted there.

(01:01:50):
I feel like a lot of times withgimbals like you're, you're
kind of just like capturingthings as they happen but you're
not able to frame them up asspecifically where it's like if
I want to keep somebody in thisthird of the frame and I want
them looking and I want thisangle to hit right, but I don't
want too much looking room onthis side, I could be very like
specific with that holding thecamera.

(01:02:11):
Yeah, I'm sure I probably youknow, with enough experience
with a gimbal, I probably couldget similar results, but I don't
know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
I'm just like yeah, I mean that's.
I agree with you.
I mean with the gimbal, in thesense that making those
intuitive micro adjustments,it's.
It's like there is a secondaryresponse because the gimbals
just committed mechanically Likeyou can do it like handheld,
like this, and they, like I'mvery used to using a gimbal now,

(01:02:39):
so like I find myself when I'min a high-paced environment I
snap on that sports mode, yeah,and I just lock into, like the
positioning, so it just kind ofit flows a little better with my
hand movements.
Got it Okay, but it's, it's,you know, but there is you can't
replace.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
You know it's like you can't replace this, like you
know, like you know I whip panfast to something, whereas with
the gimbal I'm like it's likekind of like you have to like
pre-think out some of thosemoves or over exaggerate it.
You know, and if you don't hitit on the mark, then it's just
like well, it's like the thing Idon't fully get with gimbals
that I'm sure I would withexperience it's like a lot of

(01:03:18):
times it's like it's less aboutthe start of the movement but
like ending the movement right,like I'll, I'll be at the end of
my movement and then like itjust goes too far and I'm like
God damn, I didn't want it to goback.
Yeah, that's something more ofan experienced thing for sure,
and I'm sure yeah, the segue.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
for me, though, it's like, for me it's like a Tom
Flynn signature.
Because it's like you're reallylike one of the few people that
I I see really like all thetime is on it and I'm just like
it's fun, it's just greatbecause I really you get these
great like almost steady camptype shots.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Yeah, it's more similar to a steady camp because
there's like a human element toit and like I'll just like
crouch down low and scoot downand get something real low.
That like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
Yeah, you're almost like holding it to the floor.
I remember that Lama God.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
You got that real nice sweeping moment with the
air Something that would havetaken like 10 minutes of
re-rigging something up to likereally get that right angle.
I can just kind of scoop in andget what I want, and I do like
that responsiveness of beingable to use a segue and just get
in there and film what I needto get like pretty much as I
think of it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think.
Yeah, that's such a cool tool,you know, and it too, you know,
and a lot of people, I think.
Just they're going with thelatest and greatest, newest
thing, which is like withGimbles and stuff like that, but
like you can never like replace, also like exploring the more
traditional ways of doing thisand getting creative with it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Yeah, it's like a combination like that, I try to
not stick to one thing too much,though, because I feel like
there are people out there that,like they find the thing they
like, and they a lot of thingsare just like that.
Sometimes I'll shoot a musicvideo just on a tripod, just
lock down tripod, the wholevideo, just to like, just to
switch it up.
So I'm not just like thehandheld guy or the oh, the

(01:05:00):
steady cam guy.
Yeah, you know, you always gotto be switching it up a little
bit, or else you'll findyourself just repeating coverage
patterns over and over againand then it becomes to.
You know, it's just not asinspiring if you're not
switching up all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
I think that's as like a personal, as like
creative, like you know.
It's like you don't want it tobecome mundane.
Yeah, it's like now when you dothings over, it's like, okay,
this is turning into a job.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
It can be.
You know you got to keep itfresh this way.
You know when you go home andlook at the footage, like you're
excited.
You're not like I already kindof know what like this is going
to be.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Yeah, and I think well, one great, because I think
I loved the example of yourstory as to is like you never
went to school for film or anyof this Like.
So, like a lot of us in thisroom were like we're self taught
.
Yeah, we went to the school ofthe internet and hard knocks of
like trying things and seeinghow they didn't work and then

(01:05:53):
finding out why you didn't workand then learning how to make it
work next time or make it workin the moment yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Yeah, I don't think you need film school.
I mean I wait for the peoplethat do go there A lot of times.
They'll make good connectionsand get good jobs out of it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Networking yeah, like .

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
I have friends that went to film school and, like I
kind of you know, brought themonto a few sets this way.
They could be like what am Idoing wrong?
They'd be like, yeah, and it'smostly stuff like not setting up
a C stand right or like youknow, just kind of like little,
yeah, little things.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
We're not calling things right or terminology.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
You'll get more industry terms right, I guess,
if, but I found just working onsets is the best way to learn
you know find somebody who yourespect and go work on their set
you know, just volunteer orsomething and just watch.
What they do be a set of handsand just like, help them set up
lights how do they like to lightstuff, how do they like to set

(01:06:46):
up their scenes and just like,start making notes of what
they're doing and start applyingit slowly to your work, and I
think that's probably probablythe best way to learn.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
Oh yeah, 100%.
I mean, I feel like we've gonethrough so many like great
points like that, and one of thelast things I would say is,
like I love to hear from all ofour guests.
It's like if you could go backand give your past self, your
beginning self, some advice tohelp them out starting out, or
to some other people who arejust trying to start out in

(01:07:16):
music videos or just infilmmaking in general.
I was like, hey, I want to makethis passion more of a living.
It's like what would besomething that you feel would be
valuable for them to take away?

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Don't worry about the money for a long time.
Just really focus on gettinggood at what you do.
Work alongside people you trust, people who are going to help
you grow.
Don't be afraid to step outsideof what you think you can do.
Like I was saying before, it'slike just say yes to stuff and
try to figure it out.
Don't limit yourself, don'tfeel like you can't do something

(01:07:49):
just because you haven't doneit before.
There are so many things thatif you just work on them as
you're doing them, you canfigure them out and then just
really don't worry about themoney for a long time because
it's going to limit you.
If you try to put, if you takeall these budgets that you're
given, even if it's like 500bucks, and you're trying to put

(01:08:12):
most of that into your pocket,what money do you have to make
the video look great?
You should be focusing onmaking great videos with most of
the budget, making as little asyou possibly can, and this way
your videos look higher budget.
This way when people reach outto you, they assume you're
working with bigger budgetsbecause you put the majority of

(01:08:34):
the budgets that you had intoyour video production.
So now people are just lookingat your work like, oh, I mean,
this has to be an X amountproduction.
And then they reach out to youand they'll just assume you're
working at a higher levelbecause you've basically put the
entire money of the productioninto the production and instead
of paying yourself.
And the more you can do that,the more you'll see yourself

(01:08:57):
leveling up and working withbigger clients.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
I think that's a phenomenal.
I think one thing I've heardyou know a big concept that I
think people are starting to getbut they really need to see
having a job is potentially nota livelihood but a tool to
sponsor what you really want todo.
Use that and if you can like,like you were saying, use the

(01:09:24):
budget you're getting for thatvideo, If anything, just
reinvest that completely intothe work.
Like, if you can like, if youwere able to sponsor yourself
that you don't need it but youhave, like it's a nine to five,
so you have every day after fiveto build something you know,
especially in a creative field.
It's like that's what I did along time for the beginning,

(01:09:45):
like I'm mostly everything Iwould make was 100% reinvested
for as much as I can, becauseit's like in a lot in the same
is like what you're saying.
So definitely like, don't beafraid to sponsor yourself.
This doesn't have to besomething you go all in right in
the beginning to make it work.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
I didn't go full time right away.
I was working little side jobsfor a while.
It just can't be a side jobthat takes so much out of you
that you don't have the energyto put into the video 100%.
It's like I've worked stupidjobs like security and stuff
like that, just like brainlessjobs that I could just sit there
and like, just be like I can'twait to go out and shoot some
videos and then boom, you getout and shoot videos but you

(01:10:25):
have a little bit of money inyour pocket.
You're not relying so much onmaking money on every single
project, you're focusing on justbuilding your craft and then
you know as you move up theladder, you'll get, the money
will come for sure, and then youcan go full time 100%.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
Well, thank you so much, Tom.
This has been such a greatconversation.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
I feel like I can keep going.
Hell yeah, no, this is awesome,man Appreciate it.
This is a great time man.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
Awesome brother.
So, as always, you can find usat Vision Maker Podcasts.
Vision Maker Podcasts onInstagram, tiktok, facebook.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
My space, yes, my space.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
Real, everywhere that , wherever the socials are at
this time period that you'rewatching this, and also, tom,
where can people find you, findyour work?

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Go to my Instagram.
That's kind of where I post upmost of my stuff.
It's tomjflin, that's flynn.
Yeah, I post up a lot of mywork there.
You know from me on Facebook Imight see it, I might not, but
you know not as active on there.
But yeah, instagram's where Ipost most of my stuff up and
yeah that's great.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
That's great, okay, well, thank you so much again,
of course.
Have a great day.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Thank you, man, peace .
Yeah, thanks, man.