#100 Joe Kania's Tale - From High School Fields to Pro Sports Media - The Vision Quest Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Thank you, thank you so we're live, joe, hope you're
ready.
So we're, we're, we're here,we're, we're getting.

(02:10):
Um, we're going to get a littlemore professional here as we go
along, um, but I can't promisethat.
Uh, we are here with a veryspecial guest.
I've been following this guyfor a little while on mainly
twitter, but I've checked outsome other things.
He was on rockfin too.
Um, he's done uh, marketing, uh, journalism, you name it.

(02:31):
When it comes to, to me, it'sthe brain work of what this
stuff is.
Right, like you, you have alittle more insight.
I think I explained it to you.
Is that, um, the way you putthings is the way that I want to
put things, but sometimes my,my brain gets in the way.
Um, I am joined by Joe Kania.
I'm thinking I got that correct, right.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Kenya, Kenya.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
I'm going to give you something to yell at me for it,
right, um, but you, you, youhave joined us graciously.
I, I put it out there andyou're like, dude it out there
and you're like, dude, just sendme a message, let's, let's get
this going.
So I was like, yes, doing it.

(03:13):
So, joe, you have been toplaces that I think a lot of us
would have liked to have beenflow wrestling, you know the
buccaneers, things like that.
So you have a really kind ofdiverse sports background.
It's not just wrestling, um,and that's why I wanted to have
you on as well, because visionquest is, it's more than just a,
I guess, just a movie.
It's kind of, it's kind of astate of mind, right.
So I want to welcome you and Iappreciate you taking the time
out of your day to join me.

(03:34):
So thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Sure I was.
I said I'm flattered.
Anyone cares what I should sayat this point?

Speaker 2 (03:42):
I was like oh wow, sure yeah one cares what I
should say at this point I waslike oh wow, sure, yeah, I got a
thing to do.
So let we, the way we do this,like I told you in the in the
beginning, we will start off bykind of, we're going to talk,
it's all about you, but we'regoing to start from the
beginning.
We want to go back to the timethat you remember sports in
general.
Um, I don't care if it wascroquet, I don't care if it was

(04:02):
backgammon, whatever it is.
What was the first sport thatyou remember visually in your
head that you're like oh man, Ilove playing this.
What was the first sport youwere in?

Speaker 3 (04:13):
so the town that I'm from in new jersey is a town
called westfield.
Okay, so when my parents werein high school, westfield had
one of the best high schoolfootball teams in the country
and they also had really goodwrestling program.
Chris campbell was wrestlingfor westfield when my dad was in

(04:34):
high school.
Westfield's 1977 football teamit's number one public school
football team in new jerseyhistory.
Their offensive line averagedlike 170 pounds, both coached by
the same guy.
So this guy, gary Keller.
So for me, I was always thiskind of next generation of

(04:56):
people who grew up in that kindof Keller era and Westfield at
that time was like friday nightlights for football everyone.
They had 35 000 people at theirstate championship game in 1977
, which I think is still arecord.
Yeah, very roundabout way, sayfootball, right, I was, I was
always a big kid and they sendme out and I hated it.

(05:20):
Man, did I hate it?
I must have, I was.
I don't know, I was a big kidman.
I was probably 100 pounds whenI was in first grade.
Wow, Holy cow, Joe these guys, Iknow, I know there was a point

(05:42):
in time where I weighed almost320 pounds in my life.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
How tall?

Speaker 3 (05:46):
are you.
Yeah 5'9".

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Nah, you're like me, you're like, I'm like.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, now I imagine right, 5'10".
But so these guys, when Istarted playing football,
started practice around a milewith full pads on Crackers.
Run a mile with full pads onyou know, four laps around the
field.
It was a mile and I get likehalfway through.
I'm like I don't think I can dothis man.
And something that was always.

(06:13):
If we have one viewer watchingtonight, it's my mom.
She said you just got to let meknow when you're on I'm going
to watch.
But something that was alwaysgood for me is, she said, sure,
you can quit at the end of theyear.
You started it, you finish itthrough and always, even maybe
at the end of the year, I hatedit.

(06:33):
But by the time the seasonended and you kind of settled, I
was like that wasn't that bad.
Okay, I'll try again.
But football was always reallymy first love.
Okay, okay I believe your isyour mom's name Suzanne.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, she says hi here, I'll show you Hi.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah, see, there you go, that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Hi mom, hey mom, it's awesome.
So, with that being said, withthis, you know, obviously,
football and the transition inI'm so I coach soccer right now.
Right, we know we have a lot ofkids that are kind of, you know
, just starting out the yearSchool's just starting that a
lot of these kids didn't playsports all summer.
So it's conditioning right.
So you kind of must've been oneof those things where, as you

(07:19):
went through the season, it justit just got better because you
were getting better, you know,you were getting stronger and
you were getting moreconditioned and used to it.
So I mean we know therepetition, right.
So when you, when you started,when you started playing how I
guess how far into it were youlike I want to do something else
and try a different sport.
Was that your choice?
Or your parents like, well, hey, check out this sport, check

(07:40):
out wrestling.
Was that cause you're?
You're over in the East coast.
I mean it's heavy over there,right.
I mean wrestling is is kind ofthe gig.
If it wasn't for football, Idon't think basketball is big
out there, is it no, wrestling.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
I always tell people I'm like wrestling in New Jersey
is what they pretend like.
Football in Florida or Texas islike, yeah, it's big there, but
wrestling in this part of andas I think about it more, you
say what's your first memory?
My first thing is football, butI actually started wrestling
before I played football.
Okay, say what's my like first?

(08:15):
I'm like, oh, football.
No, I actually, because when,and it's funny and we'll get
into marketing stuff, yeah, butI think I was in first grade and
they came around and we'll getinto marketing stuff, yeah.
But I think I was in firstgrade and they came around and
the teacher said anyone want tosign up for sports?
Here's wrestling and whateverelse.
Pass out little flyers.
Yeah, and one of my buddies waslike oh, wrestling wwe, sure,

(08:39):
oh, okay, you know I'll try thatout.
But when, when we talk abouthow do we get kids into
wrestling?
For me it was just they cameand they passed out flyers.
I brought it home and I waslike this sounds cool.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
And we talk.
I gave you my football story,my wrestling story.
Again, I was a big kid.
I didn't win a single matchthat first year.
I wrestled an entire year,didn't win one match, got
whooped by everyone.
That sounds like a good game.
Well, when you're a big kidlike that, they have age groups.

(09:16):
But it's like first to fifthgrade, yeah right, I was getting
beat up on by fifth grade kidswhen I was six, six, seven years
old.
So, yeah, I'd love to say I waslike sports, yeah, this is
awesome.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
I don't know, man, this might not be for me so did
you ever get to the pointbecause I, like I said I read
that I read that rockfin articleyou'd put out did you get to a
point then where you kind ofdecided, well, I like this
better, I want to branch off andjust do this.
Did you?
Were you a multi-sport kid?
Were you trying to balance both?
Or were you like, well, I'monly going to do this this year

(09:55):
and then I'm going to dofootball the next year?
Did you?
Just because they're differenttimes of the year, right, so
obviously practices aren't, butdid you kind of divide them up?
Or did you turn into atwo-sport kid?

Speaker 3 (10:07):
So I was always three sports.
So I went and I did footballand then I wrestled and until
yeah, that's funny, he says,remember the win, as do I.
But uh, I played baseball inthe spring and I remember there

(10:32):
was some kid who ended upplaying a stamper and got
drafted in the mlb really tall,wild pitcher.
I was playing baseball infourth or fifth grade.
This dude hit me right on theside with a pitch and I remember
I just said I was like thisisn't for me and I turned around
, I walked off the plate and Iwas like oh, really yeah you
made the decision right there.

(10:52):
That's awesome I was like nope,but I played lacrosse in the
spring, which you know.
So, as we say like what gets me?
I know, yeah, but you say, like,what kind of got me hooked?
Well, that first year that Iwas playing football, our team
went undefeated and we werecoached by guys who played for

(11:13):
killer, so these were like hisplayers on these legendary teams
.
We all undefeated.
And for going undefeated wewent and we played at the
halftime show of a giants jetsgame one year, wow, and I
remember I was like little kneeswalking through the thing and
michael stray hands like thisand like so.

(11:33):
After that I was like, well,this is, this is actually pretty
cool that is pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Hell, yeah, man, that's so.
That's, that's a quite, that'squite an experience.
I mean that's to me that's theequivalent of a kid walking in
the ncaa championships for awrestling kid, you know, I mean,
and you get to walk down on themats by where everybody's
taking pictures and stuff andthere goes bo nickel, you know
that kind of thing, like holycow.
But so do your.
I mean you, you're pretty wellrounded when it comes to sports.

(11:58):
You weren't just, uh, I didthis one, in this one, I mean,
you're talking about, uh,football, wrestling and and
lacrosse and and baseball, andso you got, you're pretty well
around it.
I did, I did golf, I did soccer,I did wrestling, I did baseball
.
Um, I only excelled at one, butI mean I was trying everything
too so good on mom and dad forthat one.

(12:18):
That's, that's pretty cool thatthey were able to to keep you
going.
And it takes a lot, you know,when a kid wants to do so much,
and the money and things likethat, it costs a lot for pads
and all that other stuff.
But so when you kind of weregoing through as you were, I
would say going through yourmiddle school career, we'll call
it as you're kind of gettingthrough middle school, did you

(12:41):
start branching off andindividualizing or did you try
to go all the way through?
Were you going through middleschool and high school, trying
everything you could?

Speaker 3 (12:50):
well.
So I wasn't very obviouslywasn't very, I was notably bad
at everything when I started,but we come.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
I'm not going there, we're blue collar family right.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
So, like my dad was a stonemason.
But over the summer, if youever go and put a sidewalk in
without a jackhammer, the wayyou do it is you take a pry, you
put it up and you smash it witha sledgehammer.
Yep, pick the rocks up, throwit on the truck, go to the dump,
throw it off.
My mom's dad owned a plasticmanufacturing factory, so the

(13:25):
job would be it was funny, she'sgoing to laugh ripping papers.
Yeah, we would literally sitthere and rip huge stacks of
paper or moving huge drums ofplastic pellets onto a pallet.
So just through, like thesetypes of kind of people say,
like farm boy strength, I gotreally strong because I was

(13:47):
doing these types of.
So I go through and I kind ofstart picking up fifth, sixth
grade, and I haven't grown sinceseventh grade, so I was pretty
big at this point.
I played football, wrestling,lacrosse all the way through
middle school, football,wrestling, lacrosse all the way

(14:09):
through middle school and cominginto high school I mean I got
second, I got a fun story foryou, yeah.
So I was going into sixth orseventh grade I was like I don't
even really know that I want towrestle anymore, right, and uh,
it's funny, she's sitting therewatching that's awesome I love
it.
He's like I don't really knowthat I want to wrestle anymore.

(14:29):
It's just kind of I wasn'treally that into it.
And a buddy of mine, his kidbrandon roll mick if anyone they
probably might not, but he wasnumber one in the country at a
point in time, from WestfieldWrestled at Princeton Prep,
fargo champ.
He was a great wrestler.
Yeah, his mom was like you wantto wrestle for a schoolboy team

(14:53):
?
And I'm like so flattered.
I'm like, wow, team New Jersey,that's so cool.
We get these jackets andeverything.
Yeah, little do I know theydon't even have a body at the
weight.
They just need anybody.
So they come to me and it'sfunny she's next time I see her.
I got a reminder at this point.
Seventh grade, I'm like 250,like I was a big kid damn joe's

(15:18):
like, but she goes.
she was like the weight class is225, though he's basically like
you gotta lose to lose someweight dude.
Yeah, you know cause theydidn't.
250 was a weight class for theschool boy team.
225 was the next one.
So I remember I went down toLakewood.
I bought my little uniform fromMr and Mrs Han down in Lakewood

(15:39):
.
I still got it sitting in my.
Not only do I still have it,the jacket is sitting right
there in the closet.
That's great so that's what kindof.
So then we went out there andthat was like the coolest thing
ever.
It's like, oh, we're new japan.
David taylor was wrestling forohio and logan stieber back then

(16:00):
, and yeah, it was just like areally, really cool.
And that's where I met dave bell, who was coach at burton
catholic and he was people saylike, oh, like recruiting,
recruiting catholic recruitedlike he was just like a really
good dude, like no one ever cameand recruited me.
He was just like a really gooddude and burden Catholic wasn't

(16:24):
very good at the time.
So you know, after that schoolboy trip I really kind of picked
it up and got more into it.
I was, you know, second at kidsdates and I am still sour about
that.
I think I might've been such anarcissist that I had them print
off the state champ on the backof the hoodie at the thing he

(16:45):
says I'm going to win, go, printit off already.
And I lost.
20 years later I'm still, Iknow, just like a little asshole
.
So then that kind of led me toBergen Catholic where I played
football and I was a betterfootball player than I was a

(17:06):
wrestler even at that point.
So I went over to burtoncatholic and football in the
fall.
Wrestling in the winter.
Track and field shot put discusin the spring so it sounds like
you.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
You kind of do the.
It sounds like the wrestlinghelped your football right, like
it would help to.
I don't know, maybe help expand.
I don't know if we know whoKiller Hippie is here, brutal.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
He's a good dude.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
But so, as you're going along and you're getting
you know, you go to BergenCatholic, which now we know is
definitely put some kids out.
You know, as far as I would say, both sports in general, but
when you just when did youdecide in your high school days
that you wanted to do, that youwere going to think about going
to college to play sports?

(18:00):
Was that ever a thought in yourmind at all that this is, I
love this one so much?

Speaker 3 (18:11):
I want to do it in college.
Did you ever have that moment?
You know what's funny about newjersey no one ever talked like
that.
No one said I want to go toiowa no one.
And I never heard anyone talk.
I want to be a state champ.
Okay, like Like the statechampionships in New Jersey are
I've been to the Superbowl, I'vebeen to world championships
there's no atmosphere likeboardwalk hall for the state
championships for wrestling.

(18:32):
So everyone, like all of mygroup, no one was ever like I
want to go to college andwrestle.
They were like I'm going to bea state champ.
Yeah, and the kind of bluecollar nature of new jersey is a
lot of these guys don't gowrestling.
I mean they do.
It doesn't work right.
New jersey's never been like pain terms of college wrestlers.

(18:55):
Sure, they're like dudes who goand they're they scrap and then
they go be plumbers orelectricians or something.
Go work for dpw.
You know that's so.
It never really.
I played football my freshmanyear and then going into oh man,
you're gonna have to put aclock on me because I'll keep

(19:16):
going into tangents that's whywe're here so so I go.
It was a strain on my family tobe able to.
Burton catholic was like 50minutes away.
There were times where likeyeah, they would like I'd get up
at five in the morning and I'dgo up there and I'd sleep
outside the building and then goin and go to school and go to.

(19:38):
So I went there my freshmanyear and not like guilt, but
like I appreciated thesacrifices people were making
for me, right, and I didn'tstart my freshman year which in
hindsight it's like I was afreshman heavyweight, like for a
team that was top 10 and notnumber one top 10 team in the

(19:59):
state.
Yeah, but they, uh, they had abig football player who was like
six, five, you know footballplayer who was a junior and he
beat me in my wrestle off by onepoint every single time.
So I said all right, I said I'mgonna spend this off season and
I'm gonna work like a dog thisentire off season and that's

(20:23):
what I did I'd go into schooland I'd sleep outside.
Before school I'd go to school,I'd go to track and field
practice, I'd go run, and thenthey had this place called
premier, which is now apex okaythe original location that
premier had was nicer than theolympic training center.
It was an insane wrestlingfacility ultimately fizzled out

(20:46):
and then they came back to be anapex.
But I'd go over to premier andI'd lift and I'd wrestle.
I'd get home at 10 o'clock.
So I come into my sophomoreyear.
This kid's a senior.
I'm like kind of feeling someinternal heat.
Like you know, people areputting themselves out for me to
be here, like no, and man, man,was I whooping that guy in

(21:10):
practice?
And I'll always, I'll alwaysremember brian cushing, who
played, obviously, in the nflfor years, wanted to wrestle his
senior year at bergen and PeteCarroll and USC said ah, we
don't want you like you know, wewant you to focus on football,

(21:30):
don't go waste your time.
Yeah, so the day I was supposedto wrestle this kid off who you
know was the incumbent starterI already had my singlet on,
like I was ready to rock, and hecame in and he was like well,
you know my college, try to likepull a little bit of a cushion.
It's like my con going to playcollege football.
I don't want me to a day 30minutes before the wrestle off.

(21:54):
So that was how, uh that's agood story I would have I would
have relished the opportunity toactually get the wrestle off
Cause.
Then it's like oh, you're justhere, the other guy quit.
You're not like the guy.
It's like I wanted you knowyou're a competitor.
Like I wanted that shot.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
Well, and that's, I mean, it sounds like that's how
you've been, I mean for the mostpart.
Once you, I mean going to aschool, number one.
You were dedicated enough as akid because you understood what
people were doing for you, butyou're sleeping outside of a
school, right, like just becauseof the advantage, or whatever
it is, because you have theadvantage of being able to go to

(22:34):
a good school that your parentswant to get you into, and I can
attest to that.
We moved, liam, I mean we movedfrom Oshkosh to Kaukauna, and
it necessarily educational, butI mean just everything all
around, like the.
The schools in Oshkosh are noteven close to what you know
Kekona is and and what thegrading system that they have
for school.
So we did the same thing, Imean, but we, we did what we

(22:55):
needed to do to make sure thathe was going to be successful.
Now he's in sports as far aswrestling, and that's the only
thing he's done.
Like we tried, like I told you,we tried to get him in a bunch
of little things, but you seempretty dedicated to anything
that you're doing, right?
You seem like you've had, yousaid, blue collar family, same
thing here, and when you getinto something, you really dive
into it and you try to put allyou can into it.

(23:16):
Being that you were a biggerkid, though, were you?
Were you ever presented withchallenges?
Like you said, you had to dropsome weight.
What was that like for you,having to drop weight?

Speaker 3 (23:27):
being that size later in life, best thing that could
have happened because you havethat chip on your shoulder.
Like I'd walk out on a mat andlike people laugh or people like
look at you funny, like look atthis fat little kid, oh he's
not.
Like I could ball.
So for me, like it was alwayskind of like chip on my shoulder

(23:51):
but I struggled with thatthrough.
I mean, in high school Iwrestled at like 265, 270, wow.
But you know, later in life, inmy early 20s, I was almost 320
pounds man.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Wow.
So I got up to like 240, 245.
But I'm talking about a guythat was in his 40s not at a
young age, Because I think Iplayed so much soccer that I
think that's how I stayed inshape.
If I didn't play soccer I wouldhave been in the same spot,
because my brother always calledme the fat kid.

(24:29):
I was the guy that was runningaround the soccer field.
That was bigger than everybody,but I also ran people over
because I didn't have to worryabout them blocking me out or
knocking me over.
When you wind up going toBergen and you're on the
football team and then wrestlingteam, did you I'll ask again,
did you ever wind up cutting itout to just one sport, or did?

Speaker 3 (24:53):
you stay multi-sports all the way through high school
.
So after my freshman year Iwent through freshman football.
I came into wrestling.
I was not in wrestling shape socoming in I was really kind of
motivated, like okay, like Iwant this spot.
It's like I can't be.
No disrespect to football, butfootball shape is not wrestling

(25:15):
shape.
I was like when wrestlingseason starts I want to be in
wrestling shape.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
So it was at that point after my freshman year
that I was like just wrestlingwell I, I think we see a good
reason of why he probably hadsome hard times bringing weight
down.
Liam has the same thing.
A lot of pasta here, a lot ofpasta in this house, I'll tell
you that much right now.
But, um, so that?
So that's, that's an awesome I.
I think to to me the just theperspective that, like I said,

(25:41):
that you already had as a kidkind of understanding that
people were putting themselvesout there to be able to get you
to something that was a littlebit better.
You know something like that, Imean, and maybe it was or
wasn't.
Your mom can yell at me if shewants to.
I can totally appreciate that.
But as far as the aspect ofeducation now, because what you
do, what were you into as a highschool student?

(26:03):
I mean, we can talk about kidstill we're blue in the face what
they're interested in, but onceyou got into high school, you
start to kind of mature more.
You start kind of thinkingabout things a little bit more
of like maybe what you want todo or whatever.
But what were?
What?
Were you starting to geartowards education wise, as
you're going through high school?
Were you veering towardsanything like writing or
anything like that.
What was your love?

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Ask me what I want to be now when I grow up.
You know I had no idea.
But something that always stuckwith me that I always thought
about was I love music, rock androll, for the same reasons that
I love sports, in that you cando something you really, really
love and totally bypass alleconomic and social boundaries.

(26:50):
It's like a true home run.
And I always remember a storymy dad told me about how the Van
Halens never had a job.
The only job they ever had waspainting numbers on the curves.
And I always thought like inthe back of my head man, how
cool must that be?
So only ever do exactly whatyou want to do, like what you

(27:11):
really love.
So like in terms of school Iwasn't a bad student, like I was
like a B plus kind of student,but like I had to be really
engaged.
So I was never, you know.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
I was never thinking, oh, what do I want to?

Speaker 3 (27:28):
do for a career.
What do I want to?
So I'll I'll speed it up.
Yeah, timeline wise is.
I went to cause this kind ofwraps, some of these up yeah.
I went to well.
I got recruited by a couple ofschools.
At high school I mean by thetime I graduated high school I

(27:49):
won freestyle states in Jersey acouple of times.
I was always like the guy onthe cadet teams and the junior
dual teams like I qualified foractual regular states in new
jersey and got pinned in like 30seconds trying to lefty arm
throw.
But oh, we're not sour aboutthat either, still.

(28:10):
But so, like I was, you know Iwas pretty good.
I wasn't, you know, I wasn'tknocking on my door, but I was
good enough where Division I wasa possibility.
So I chose Bloomsburg and Itweeted a nice story about Coach
Stutz who, if people didn't seeit, I went on four recruiting

(28:33):
trips and the first one was toDivision II, newberry, and this
was before like flow or video oranything.
So all these schools only sawme on paper.
They didn't even know what Ilooked like.
They only saw my resume.
And when I got to Newberry theguy almost said like you are way
fatter than we thought and justlike totally blew me off the

(28:57):
entire weekend, didn't talk tome.
They were like go do your thing, goodbye.
And I was like like okay, yeah,and they were good.
They were number one d2 team inthe country, so like that kind
of rubbed me the wrong way alittle bit.
Yeah and I didn't like theschool anyway.
But so I went to maryland andcoach beckerman took me around

(29:17):
and he was awesome, very cool,very, you know.
But financially and like thesize of the school I'm out of
state.
I was like I don't know thatmaryland's a good fit.
Then I go to bloomsburg and Iremember coach stutz was like
best little man, best little bigman in the country.
He was like same, you're thesame size as Mako.

(29:39):
He was like we'll get this done, this, that, this.
And he was like which?
I'm not Mako is a little biggerthan me, but he was really
enthusiastic.
He put my application through.
He was always checking in on meand for me later in life I
appreciated that.
I was like, oh, they didn'tneed me, they weren't buttering

(30:00):
me up because I was some bluechip recruit.
It was just like a good juke.
I was like, okay, bloomsburg,probably the way I committed to
Bloomsburg and never wrestled.

(30:22):
At this point I hear people talklike burnout or this, that and
the third, and I think a lot oftimes people don't realize for
me it wasn't burnout, it wasjust like stage of my life, like
you.
Know you, how many people lovesomething when they're 12 years
old and then love that samething the same way when they're
18, 19, 20.

(30:43):
True, like people want toattribute it to burnout, but
it's like maybe you're just likean adult.
You have other interests youwant to have.
I never had a normal life Likemy life was always consumed.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
I was like you know what.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
I was like probably not, you know my thing.
Fine.
So I go to Bloomsburg for threesemesters and I am getting
crushed in debt.
It's like piling up.
I never even declared a major.
I was doing good in school.
I had good grades, dean's List.

(31:16):
I was doing good in schoolbecause I was used to doing 50
things at once.
I'm like, oh, this is a joke.
Okay, cool, I'm gonna come,I'll go do my school, I'll go
party with my buddies.
And it's funny because if youpresented that in another way of
a better recruit, you'd be likethis guy scumbag this, that

(31:37):
burnout.
It's like I just wanted to havea normal life for a little bit.
Yeah, which, which was good forme.
So I go there for threesemesters and I'm like my name's
a clarion major.
I have no idea what I want todo.
I'm getting in a ton of debtand it's funny because
everything worked out.

(31:58):
But but leaving wasn't sometype of Mark Zuckerberg?
I got this brilliant idea.
It was like no mas.
So I come back to New Jersey.
I'm living in my mom's houseAgain, 320 pounds and I'm
delivering soups and salads fora restaurant in town Driving a

(32:20):
$500 beater.
The light Saturn.
It was a Saturn.
The light dangled from thething, yeah, and I'm like what
am I 20 at the time and like noidea what I want to do?
And eventually and this isprobably like a little arrogant,

(32:43):
but I was this is, I don't know, early 2010s and I'm like man.
The people who do the wrestlingrankings for the star ledger
don't really do a very good joband at this point, people that
were in high school were like mypeers, they were like my
friends, so I knew this.
Like you know, the traditionaljournalists were doing football,

(33:06):
baseball, wrestling they're notlike.
So I went and I started agoogle blog spot and I called it
garden state wrestling.
And I went and I taught myselfhow to build this little
rinky-dink website.
Yeah, and I had one reallystrong marketing channel was a

(33:28):
forum on njcom and that reallykind of so I put out some
rankings and I posted it on theforum and it got like 2000 pages
the first time I ever did it,wow, which now is crazy.
But then traffic on theinternet was so concentrated,
yeah, so, like, at that point Iwas like, okay, let's like do

(33:52):
some more and yeah, some more,yeah and uh, that of.
So I'm doing this for fun whileI'm delivering soups to people
who don't give me tips in mybeat up car and uh, I come
across.
This is as flow.
Wrestling is coming up, oh,okay.

(34:14):
And I just remember thinking Iwas like this is so cool, like
they were so authentic, like tome is like an actual wrestler
Right Traditional newspapers.
It's not really authentic.
It's like Big J, but they werenot even Little J.
They were like out there andwearing headbands and like you

(34:35):
know, doing crazy stuff, man,this is so cool, yeah.
And like you know, doing crazystuff, man, this is so cool,
yeah.
So that kind of got me into youknow, making videos and okay
eventually I really becameinterested in like live
streaming stuff because I didn'tknow any better.
I was like you know what thisis?
His twitter is becoming popularand I remember at the new

(34:58):
jersey all-star match one yearthere was a row of I didn't know
any better.
So there's like a press spotwhere the press sits and they're
all sitting there and they'relike I'm gonna live tweet the
thing and me, like a bozo, Itake a folding table up and I
put it on the corner of the matand I put a big banner that says
garden state wrestling and Itake my laptop out and I duct

(35:19):
tape my phone on the back sideof my laptop and I stream the
entire all-star match that year.
Oh my god, through this programcalled you stream yeah, and
again tons of viewers like gotme like really excited about it
and I'm not making any moneyhere doing this at all.
I'm still doing whatever.

(35:42):
Yeah, for a kid at that pointtoo, that's not very your
friends.
Or at college, or Westfield's awealthy town, all my peers,
they're getting internships inthe city and I'm like the poor
fat kid with his like beat upcar doing you know.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Meal deliveries.
Gotta do what you gotta do.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
So eventually I'm like you know what I was like.
It would be really cool tocrazy.
In hindsight I'm like it'd bereally cool to work for this
dark ledger.
And this is in this age of theinternet.
It's not easy to find peoplewho are right, like now.
You can find anyone, find themon linkedin.

(36:25):
Send them a message takes fiveminutes.
Yep, could not do it back then.
So, like a total bozo, I show upin a full suit to the newsroom
with a resume and I which, ifyou've ever been in a newsroom,
people aren't wearing a shirtand a tie and I basically just
asked I run this website calledGarden State Wrestling.

(36:47):
I can make videos.
I know a lot about wrestlingand, by God's good grace.
They were like okay, we'll giveyou 500 bucks an hour, come
make videos for football andthen, if that works, you can do
wrestling.
What sparked me was theirwriter, who had covered

(37:08):
wrestling, had just retired.
It was like the turn of theinternet and he'd been there for
a long time.
So I'm like and it was probablyinsensitive I reached out to
him and was like hey, I reallylike this.
It's kind of cringy inhindsight because I was his baby
, yeah, but I just showed up andkind of begged my way into the

(37:28):
gig and I was extremely raw,right, like I could kind of make
videos, yeah.
But you know, when it came forme to like actually have to
write stuff, I remember theysent me to cover a high school
football playoff game and I cameback and I wrote a story and I
had no idea what I was doing.

(37:49):
They were, right, like a newstory.
It's like the inverse triangleright, you lead with the most
important stuff.
I just like, chronologically,this is what happened.
They threw my story out.
They didn't even take theeditor rewrote it.
Yeah, it was terrible, butcredit to them is they knew I

(38:10):
had the wrestling knowledge, sothey worked me through it.
Right, they were like theywould read my articles and I
wish we had this type of I don,we had this type of loyalty in
the workplace today.
But they took me and I'd go inhis office and he'd read my
thing and I'd watch him edit itin real time.
He'd give me stuff read this,read that.

(38:30):
Go sit with this guy, ask himquestions.
But really my thing was likewhat really got me excited was
eyeballs and like you needpeople read my stuff and even
though my work wasn't very good,it got a ton of traction
because I knew how to get peopleto read it.
So I'm, I'm going through thisyear at the star ledger goes

(38:55):
really well, all is well andgood.
But I'm seeing the old schooljournalism guys there and I'll
always remember one of theeditors, an older guy, was kind
of like I took the wrong career.
You know, this isn't a good.
I was working at the newspaperwhen the newspaper closed and

(39:15):
they turned it into just awebsite like their own company.
Wow, yeah, closed and theyturned it into just the website
like the own owned company.
Wow, yeah.
So at this point in time I'm sodelusional that I'm like you
know what would be really cool?
I work for the giants.
I'm like this already workedfor the newspaper and like I

(39:36):
have nothing to lose, right.
I'm like, yes, it would bereally cool.
I grew to lose, right, it wouldbe really cool.
I grew up a giant span.
Like it'd be really cool if Iworked for the giants.
So I find some guys email who,again, this is like kind of
cringy and embarrassing and Ican't believe it worked.
But I send them an email and Isay hey you know I work at NJcom

(40:00):
this and that I would love towork for the Giants.
And it was starting and heactually responded, which to me
was like just getting the Giantsto respond to me was the
coolest thing ever.
So I go and he says no, we'renot interested right now.
I say okay, so I send him anemail once a month for the next

(40:24):
year.
They start to get a littleeccentric.
I'm like I'll mop the floors, Idon't care Anything, anything
you want, you don't have to payme.
And so eventually I go into thenext year at the Star Ledger.
I get a lot better writing.
I've got my National WrestlingMedia Journalist of the Year

(40:46):
trophy sitting up here from whenI was like 21.
And I was doing well.
But eventually I hear back fromI uh trying to think of
timelines here.
Before my second season at thestar ledger.
The giants came back to me andthey're like would you be

(41:09):
interested in being atranscriptionist, someone who
transcribes press conferences?
Yeah, yeah, I would say lesswhen, where.
So I went and uh, I showed uplike a total clown, looking like
I'm ready to be on thesidelines, like a visor and a
giant polo, like total goof.

(41:30):
And uh, I I interviewed withthis guy who used to work.
The guy who I interviewed withis their senior writer, used to
work at the star ledger and youknow, interview went really well
, but at this point I couldn'tpick one or the other.
Financially, yeah, the giantspaid me 10 bucks an hour so I

(41:53):
had to keep the newspaper, butthey were inverse hours, okay,
but for me it's like I've beenmy bar, for what's hard is like
again.
I go to school five in themorning, go wrestle all day and
get back at 10 at night and,like I never thought about it
that way, I was like that's justthe way it is yep.

(42:14):
So I went in that first season.
I worked at the giants.
They would make fun of me.
I'd pull up in a different $500beater.
It was a late 80s Lincoln MarkVII diesel.
The anti-theft on that car youhad to turn the defroster on

(42:35):
before you turned the key overto start the car.
Oh my God.
That's clever.
It clever like fading blackpaint.
It saved me from getting carjacked, covering high school
football once but ever.
So I go and I I get into thegiants and I'm like here's a fun
story.
My first day there.

(42:56):
I started as an intern.
So there's me and 10 otherinterns and they start across
the room.
I'm the last one to go.
They start with someone else.
It doesn't get out of his chair.
He sits there.
He says my name's billy.
I go to this college.
My uncle knows this guy and hekind of set the structure and

(43:19):
then everyone after that followsthat because they all knew
somebody, right?
Next one says oh, my name'ssally.
I went here.
My aunt knows one of themarrows, and they all go and it
finally comes to me and I'm like, well, shit, I didn't really go
anywhere and I don't knowanybody.
So I'm like what do I?
So I'm like, okay, I went.

(43:39):
I stood up and I'm like, well,I didn't really go anywhere and
I don't know anybody.
So I'm like what do I?
So I'm like, okay, I went and Istood up and I said I'm so
excited to be here and like Ican't wait to learn from you all
.
This is dream come true, likewhatever, so which, ultimately,
I think they like.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
I think they like.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
How was the reception to that?
I think they liked it, but Iwas just kind of.
My takeaway from that, though,is when people talk about equal
and fair opportunities, say,sure, there are spots at the
table for people like me, butit's one of them.
The other nine are for peoplelike that.
Yes, you can get in.
Yes, you can get in.

(44:20):
Yes, you can do it.
It's much, much harder.
Just from that little exchange.
I go through this entire season, and I took pride that I worked
at the newspaper at night.
They'd ask me.
They were like still at thepaper.
I'm like till midnight everynight, 3 in the morning, 8
o'clock.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
I didn't know how to do anything.
I just wanted to be like I'mgonna work like a dog.
You were whole assing it, youweren't half assing it.
That's what I like is you werein, you know come in on my day
off.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
They were nice.
They would let me take dinner.
I would go straight from easteast rutherford back to the
office.
They'd let me grab dinner atthe cafeteria, take it with me,
wow.
So eventually and I know I'm ona full talking at you tangent,
but you're fine, dude.
That's why we're here, you'regood so I go through my second

(45:20):
season at the Star Ledger.
It was my first season at theGiants, I win this award.
People are coming up to me atevents.
I'm like this young kid.
It was cool.
And I told the Giants.
I was like, please, can I comeback next year?
I was like, pretty, pretty,please.
And at this time the Starledger, as the newspaper, was

(45:44):
folding and they werereorganizing as njcom, just a
digital publication, and theytold me they were like you can't
go work for the giants againbecause technically the website
also covers the giants.
It's conflict of interest, yeah, yeah.
So the giants told me they werelike well, you can come back

(46:08):
for another year, but you're notreally supposed to.
So just show up on the firstday and we'll tell mr mayor,
you're already here and what arewe going to do about it?
so I'm sitting here I'm like Ididn't quit my job for just a
little bit of roll the dice, youknow?
yeah, so I quit my job at thenewspaper yeah, and I go back

(46:34):
for and you know I would go intothe giants on my day off.
I'd stay there all day.
I had nothing else to do anyway, and I slowly started to pick
up responsibilities.
I write blogs for their blogthat was like totally dead and
no one saw.
But I wrote two blogs everysingle day, even though no one
saw it, and I'd report on thedata to, like you know, someone

(46:59):
who's now one of my closestfriends, who's their svp of
marketing, was their head ofdigital.
He's like, yeah, you can writethe dead blog that no one sees.
Hey, man, look at all thetraffic, look at this, look at
that.
What do you think about this?
Right, they'd let me work onthe switchboard on their shows,
screening calls, doing gruntwork, mostly transcribing press

(47:22):
conferences, which is the lowestposition in the entire
organization.
It's lower than the ball boys.
I'm not out on the field, it'sliterally the most lowly.
But I am approaching with a lotof enthusiasm the second
season's coming up.
Dude, you can't, can't.

(47:43):
They pay me 10 bucks an hour.
Right, they were like you can'tgo back again, we don't.
They were like we would lovefor you to.
There's just not a position.
People at the giant stay there.
Everyone I worked with at thegiant still works there.
Their lifers like yeah I couldsit here and spend this entire
time saying nice things abouthow good they were to me, how

(48:05):
good they are to everyone, whata good organization, yeah, but
you can't come back right, okay,fine.
So now, like the heat's kind ofstarting, I'm living on my own
now in the ghetto and I'm likeyou know what am I going to do?
Yeah, yeah.
And in week like 14 or 15, theguy who was their director of

(48:31):
digital, who I was writing theblogs for, was like what do you
think about Tampa Bay?
I was like I just I'm thinkinglike I want a roof over.
I don't care, send me anywhere,except for like Cleveland or
Washington.
But uh, so I'm like Tampa thatsounds pretty cool, you know.
So I go down there, I interview.

(48:53):
I didn't want to tell the giant, I didn't want to tell my boss
I was going.
I was like I got to take a dayoff, but I can do all my work,
I'll be here and that.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
And eventually he was like dude.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
I know this guy.
He was a former giant okay,yeah, the books, yep so I went
down there and we kind ofclicked and I got in a third.
We're now in my third 500 carI've had since beginning this
rant.
I got in another $500 car and Itold myself I said, if this car

(49:24):
makes it one way to Florida,I'm in, Get me there.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
If it makes it and it doesn't start, they're stuck
with you.
You're staying there.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
I was like I didn't even think about it.
If it doesn't start, I'm likethis is the only this has got to
happen.
That's what.
I got.
Yeah, so we get down to.
I drive down all the way bymyself down to Tampa and
increasing responsibilities,like I was.

(49:56):
We talk about, like this is awrestling podcast.
Right, we talk about wrestling.
But my perception of what'sdifficult was always skewed.
They say, oh, you wrestle,everything is easy but it's
cliche.
Right, but that was true for me.
It's like my perspective ofwhat was hard.
It's like we're breaking bricksin the summer and we're playing

(50:19):
football running too much andwe're wrestling.
When I only was able to focus onone thing BC.
So we've got you know Bucksdoing well.
I got there when we were theworst team in the league and QB
was at the podium crying.
They were on the way to thenumber one draft pick and we

(50:43):
turned it around from thedigital side through a lot of
this data analysis and we sawthat our app had a lot of
engagement.
We saw the types of contentthat our app was engaging with.
I'm sitting there and it'sslowly trickling
responsibilities.

(51:04):
It's like, okay, now you writearticles for the site, now you
make the content calendar.
By the time I was there,everyone above me had left, so I
was really running the wholedepartment for the better part
of the season.
So how do we end up back atwrestling?
Yeah, it's a great question Yep,so everyone above me had left.

(51:30):
I'm the lowest level positionabove an intern.
I've been there for three years.
I'm ready for a promotion right, I deserve to be promoted.
Yeah, three years, I'm readyfor a promotion right, like I
deserve to be promoted.
Yeah, the bucks now have theirthird or fourth chief marketing
officer.
The entire time I'm there itwas like a revolving door told
this new guy.
I said you know I'm ready for apromotion.

(51:51):
He says okay, well, we'llfigure it out when we have this
org restructure meeting.
We have this org restructuremeeting and this new guy.
We have it in the auditorium ofthe team facility.
After hours this guy comes outon the stage with this little

(52:15):
headset like Steve Ballmer Ooh,this that Really.
And the point of that meetingwas that there is no org chart
and there is no restart.
So I leave that meeting.
I walk through the teamfacility out back to the
football field and called yourbuddy, joe Williamson.

(52:37):
I said they still looking overat you know.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, over at the
old FOW yeah okay.
Thanks Joe.
Thank you Joe.
My guy.
So how, what we're?
I mean obviously being beingable to, because I'm going to
roll back into the the rockfinarticle you wrote.

(53:03):
Okay, because that kind of died.
That was back in high school.
That that memory is from rightbecause it's because I want to
tie it into your writing alittle bit, because reading it
to me you already were a writer.
You know that kind of thing.
So when you were kind of goingthrough that process of of going
through high school athleticsand I don't mean to rewind too

(53:23):
far as far back- as I totallytook it off the rails I don't
know.
You're fine because I was gonnalet and we're either way, I was
coming back to this.
So what you sat down thisarticle was about that.
It was about an eye openingsituation that you had, right um
, and so I, so we don't have todiscuss the entire thing.
But so because you saw thethings that you saw with

(53:45):
addiction and things like thatand just kind of like whole kind
of a mind-blowing situation fora young man, where did that, I
guess, story take?
You Was that kind of the thingwhere you were like maybe this
was too much.
As far as the sports Becauseyou talked about when you were
going to be done with highschool, you're kind of like

(54:07):
sports, you're like it's notsomething that I really want to
dedicate my life to.
Did that story play a part inthat?

Speaker 3 (54:16):
Sure, sure, well.
So for whoever's listening thathasn't heard, there's a story
about a buddy of mine.
Opiates ravaged the part of newjersey where I'm from and it's
a nice part of new jersey.
They're not like people think,like junkies are like, and I
think now, on the tail end, wesee these are like good kids

(54:40):
from better families than me, soI'll retell it.
We were sitting in my buddy'sliving room and his brother came
in and said you guys, brother'sa serial criminal.
Now he's in trouble foreverything.
Bad guy.
Yeah.

(55:02):
And he comes and he says youguys try this, this little pill,
and like I wasn't like this,like goody two-shoe kid where I
was gonna be like oh no, I'm sohigh and mighty I would.
You're a kid, you want to fit in, it's not.
But I never fucked aroundduring wrestling season.
I, I didn't drink, I didn't goto parties, that was my only.

(55:23):
When the season ends sure, thisis like right after the season,
going into Fargo stuff orsomething, he says you got to
try these things.
He crushes it up on hisyearbook, passes it around, he
passes it to my buddy who'ssitting right next to me, snorts
this pill which I've never seen, seen in movies or whatever.

(55:45):
Yeah, he looked at me and hesays this is the best feeling
I've ever felt before and and Ikind of took a minute and two of
my teammates at BourbonCatholic had just won state
championship and I told youabout what that atmosphere is
like in New Jersey and my,there's no type of like.

(56:07):
I knew better.
My only thought in thatparticular moment was there is
no way that can feel better thanwhat I just saw my two buddies
do, dancing on that mat andeveryone going crazy like I
didn't.
I didn't see where it was going,I didn't have any type of it,

(56:27):
just kind of clicked at me andI've always kind of beat on my
own drum.
You know I was if I don't likesomething, I don't like
something, I'm not gonna.
So I heard that and I was like,well, no, I don't want the best
feeling that I ever feel.
I want to be a state champ.
So I was like no, it's not forme.

(56:49):
Yeah, pass it around.
And you know, I should pull thecard up about five years since
he died really, which is, yeah,yeah, wow.
So, yeah, I need to put areminder.
I have his birthday as areminder on my phone.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
I don't have the day he died as a reminder I really
wanted that story to be outthere because there is a lot of
and it's on rockman you guys, he, if you guys are on rockman,
joe does have it on there.
I did want that to be told justbecause I think, and especially
now where we see there's,especially with social media,
the explosion of it and kidshaving so much access to it, and

(57:27):
not just drugs itself but justsocial pressure, right Cause,
that's that's to me, that's whatI took away from that was you.
You you definitely were able toagain the mind, the mindfulness
of exactly what was going on.
You had a different idea ofwhat good was right and you
obviously pushed yourself evenfurther into that and I think

(57:48):
your, your mom, actually agrees.
So that's one of the thingsthat I wanted that to be out,
because I think kidsmisinterpret a lot of the feel
goods that are out there.
You know there's the rushesthat that are important, like,
because they don't know thoserushes yet they haven't felt
every single rush that you couldfeel.

(58:08):
So they see an easy way to feela rush and it's accessible and
they want to go to it and notwork for it, whereas you don't.
You didn't have to work forthat Someone just handed it to
you.
You're like this is the bestfeeling, and and again in a
kid's frame of mind.
Not every kid wants to workright.
Not every kid wants to gothrough the hard part of getting
to something and that's thehard part for him.

(58:28):
But I wanted that story inparticular to be out there
because my my wife is a goodfriend, that he was an addict
but he didn't necessarily diefrom the addiction, but he got
into a place in life where theaddiction took him to a bad
place.
So I think it's important thatthe perspective that you had at
that time especially putting thesports perspective in front of

(58:51):
the drug perspective, thinkingthis is the high that I want,
being out in front of that crowd, being able to win, and my
friends will be around with metoo, because in front of that
crowd being able to win and myfriends will be around with me
too, because my teammates willbe there, that kind of thing.
I think it's important for thatto be out there, for kids to
realize that you can look at itand be like that's stupid,
that's, that's dumb, it's,there's no point.
I have greater things that Ican accomplish along the road.

(59:13):
I think the instantgratification generation is is
still alive and well becausethey're they're kids and they
want to feel things right away.
But I think that having thatperspective and I, if I can I
don't know if that is that isthat premium on on a Rockman I
can't remember Is that zerosubscribers.

(59:33):
If anyone wants to be my firstsubscriber check me out, jump on
, but I I because you'dmentioned and I think I read it
uh, read something about itwhere you posted it up on
twitter and I was like that'sinteresting, I'm on rock, but
I'll go check that out.
When I read that, it struck meentirely.
So I appreciate you sharingthat with the world in general.
But go and read the whole thing, guys, because it's it's

(59:55):
definitely worth the read.
It's definitely worth havingyour kids read as well.
So, all right, now we're goingto fast forward a little bit,
because now we're getting intothe wrestling world back again,
here again, where you're talkingabout working at Flow Wrestling
, because you mentioned JoeWilliamson, joe Williamson of
Grow Wrestling.
Formerly he was part of GrowWrestling.
He started it and then he gotbusy.
He's doing his own thing, Ithink, down in missouri.

(01:00:24):
So, um, joe's staying busy.
But you got, uh, you got intouch with joe williamson and
asking about flow wrestling.
So how did that transpire?
When you're you have a phoneconversation with joe, and and
how did everything roll out fromthat?

Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
well, I met joe when I was doing the garden state
wrestling thing.
I met him at the iron horseinvitational at south plainfield
.
I remember like it wasyesterday.
He asked me to do a video aboutgarden state wrestling and I was
kind of like shy about it.
I wish I did, because thatwould be so cool to have now.
I kept in touch with talk aboutgood people and wrestling

(01:01:00):
doesn't get better than that guyyeah, all the way through,
right.
So I call him and they had ajob posting up.
I called him and I was like hewould hit me up here and there
asking about stuff about NewJersey and rights for something
whatever.
So we always kept in touch.

(01:01:21):
Yeah, and I called him.
I was so I'm surprised I'm notcross-eyed from how hard my eyes
rolled at that last org meetingwith the little heads.
Tiny little thing with like alittle.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
A bubble.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
On the end of it, yeah, I was like I can't do this
anymore.
That's awesome.
So I say you guys, you know, Iwanted a little more creative
freedom, like something.
That always kind of helped meis like a blissful arrogance.
I can do more, I can do better.

(01:01:57):
They're holding, you know, theprofessional sports.
I learned a ton and I met somegreat people and I loved my time
there.
Yeah, but there's red tape todo stuff.
So, particularly instagram whichis weird now, but it was a long
time ago is the idea of thedissemination of information

(01:02:21):
happening on platform andquickly.
Everyone had been sharing ideasat this point in time through
link posts on Facebook andTwitter primarily.
But if I'm a data person, it'slike well, a thousand people see
this article.
We had this plugin calledChartbeat at the box and I could

(01:02:42):
see how long and how far peoplegot down the website.
So I'm like well, a thousandpeople saw this article, 200
people clicked it.
75% of people don't even getpast the first frame.
Nobody is consuming theinformation that we're
delivering this way.
So I said Instagram is thefuture.

(01:03:03):
I want to tell stories that youcan consume in 10 seconds that
are just as impactful as a storythat you traditionally would
have to click through and read.
It's harder to write.
In a newspaper industry.
It's easy to write.
They call it inches.

(01:03:27):
In a newspaper, anyone canwrite a story in 30 inches.
Tell that same story in fourinches six inches way harder.
So at the Bucks I was thinkingwell, I want to be able to
deliver these messages in aconsumable on platform way to
the largest audience possible.
It's hard to go through thehierarchy of a corporation like
that to make such a drasticchange.
So I would present the Bucksflow wrestling stuff, because I

(01:03:52):
was such a fan.
I said they do a beautiful jobin layering content.
They have feature documentaries, they have goofy social posts
and everything in between.
It's got to be layered.
Okay, I call Joe.
He says yeah, you know I, wegot this job up.
I interviewed with Nick Belkett,who's one of the most

(01:04:13):
underappreciating people inwrestling.
He's the first marketing personat Flow Wrestling.
He worked there for like 10years.
He's a genius and a good friend.
And this guy, nick Shank, whowas former Houston Texans visual
staff oh, that was good for me,right, I'm coming from the NFL.
He knows some people in my samecircle.

(01:04:34):
Yeah, and Nick said somethingto me and I'm not going to
repeat it.
Nfl.
He knows some people in my samecircle.
Nick said something to me andI'm not going to repeat it, but
he said something that wasforeshadowing as to what would
come On my interview.
He hardly knew me.
He basically told me.
He said we want to shatter somenorms, we want to be creative

(01:04:56):
and we want to shatter somenorms.
I was like sign me up, say lessso I've never been to texas
before the first time.
It's funny.
The first time I ever went totexas I was driving the u-haul
and they had these skyways.
One lane goes over the highway.
I drove straight through.

(01:05:17):
I've been drinking coffee, Ihaven't sleep, I haven't been
sleeping and I hate heights.
I'm terrified of heights.
So I'm driving a u-haul on thisthing.
It looks like I'm floatingthrough the air.
First time I ever stepped footdown in texas.
I get out of the u-haul, pukeeverywhere.
Oh so upset from no, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Oh man, so what were you so in, just in the
conversations and because youalready had been in wrestling
for so long, what, when you,when you talk about shattering
norms, like what in in thatconversation, what, what type of
norms were there already?
I mean, you guys were, you guysweren't the weren't the norm?
You know that was, you guyswere.

(01:05:59):
As far as flow wrestling, thoseguys were kind of it was
different like no one beforeflow wrestling I couldn't even
go out.
There were forums, of courseyou know every state had their
own forums that talked aboutwhatever sport, but there there
wasn't a whole lot of media.
You know there was the olympicsand you know, maybe maybe you
caught your state cover in thestate tournament or something

(01:06:20):
like that, but it was alreadykind of a shattered norm.
What, I guess what?
What were they?
What was the concept behind theshattering portion?

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
because they're already beyond the norm already
from the digital perspective,okay, not from wrestling
industry or media.
They basically I don't know ifthey wanted it or that's what I
gave them, but I said I'm goingto bring what I learned at the
pinnacle.
I spent five seasons in the NFL.

(01:06:48):
I'm going to take that and justhave free reign to blow up all
the strategies that I didn'tlike, where I think things could
be better, strategies that Ididn't like where I think things
could be better.
And I got there.
I say Instagram.
I got there.
They had 10,000 followers andthe Instagram at this time was

(01:07:09):
like I post once a week, like athrowback Thursday, like it had
no rhyme or reason.
So my first thought is well, Inow understand through data
analysis that the way that we'redistributing information this
is where the norm got shatteredthe way that we're distributing
information isn't consumable.
We had a thousand people whocould have consumed this message

(01:07:32):
we sold out for 200 link clicksand then only 40 people
actually read the article.
We're wasting our time, yeahRight.
So my first kind of and I spenta lot of time just on this If
you look now, I think they'reclose to a million.
I left them a little over halfa million 600,000 in like two

(01:07:57):
years, from 10,000 to 600,000.
Wow.
But what we did and it didn'ttrack wrestling had the same
number of followers at that time.
It was like neck and neck.
But my strategy that I came inwas I need people to be able to
consume these messages in onepicture and six words.

(01:08:20):
How can we make people see,feel, think about a complex
topic with just those types ofassets and also volume?
They were posting once a week.
I started posting 20 times aday, no problem, and sometimes,
and sometimes like as it wentthrough, like I would post, like

(01:08:42):
super goofy, I had this gimmickwhere I would post a picture of
a random piece of fruit and I'dsay name this fruit, whatever,
whatever, whatever, because itseemed well, it seems goofy, but
the strategy behind that iswhat the fuck are they talking

(01:09:03):
about what?
And then people would commentit was like a fun, like gimmick
people.
I post a banana and they didpineapple.
I did oh, close, but not close.
And someone would sayblueberries, I think oh, almost
engagement, but well, but whatthat also made the audience feel
like is we were speaking tothem and not at them, which I

(01:09:23):
think is a problem in all ofsocial media.
I wanted their feed to feellike a friend.
I didn't want clean, prettygraphics.
I didn't want hype videos.
I wanted janky, low-qualityassets that made me feel like I
was speaking to you, not I wasspeaking at you.
And the fruit.

(01:09:43):
It's like you stop and you takea minute and you think and
you're like what, what's goingon here?
And then you come and you saysomething goofy and I say
something goofy back and youfeel good as the user.
Oh, they acknowledge me.
Oh, I'm part of the joke.
Sure, that's awesome.
So you know, we talk aboutaustin de santo, yep, which for

(01:10:08):
me, again, it all comes back todata.
Everything that I ever did Icould root in data.
So the first time we say he'sleaving drexel, I post a graphic
and I say where's he gonna go?
And I put a couple of terriblegraphic.
I'm not a graphic designer,it's just like logos slopped on
a picture where should he go?

(01:10:29):
And it got like thousands ofcomments for me.
I'm in this data every day andI'm like people might be really
interested here, yeah.
So then I go back and I post acouple goofy ones.
Should you go to where you know, like, just to like speak to
the people and have fun?
Yep, if we're not.

(01:10:50):
Social media and sports is anentertainment product if I'm not
having fun, you're not havingfun.
If none of us are having fun,we're wasting our time.
So I I post a couple you knowgoofy graphics.
We get some more, but I wasable to see behind the data,
like this is an opportunity.
This time we had big 10 matchesthat weren't on tv, that we

(01:11:12):
were broadcasting.
We had him wrestling on theplatform and, fortunately,
through this hierarchy thatexisted at the time, they let me
run crazy with nick velcat,made with a straight face.
We.
There was a point in time wherewe were putting the santo's
face in random parts ofunrelated pictures and like a

(01:11:36):
really translucent way.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
I remember those.
I remember those.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
Yeah, nick went up with the straightest face and
was like our subliminalmessaging marketing strategy and
he has like Budweiser and Pepsiand all of these total straight
face Like.
But again it makes people belike, is that desanto in the
back of a right?

(01:12:03):
But now they're looking and nowthey're thinking very
critically about everythingthat's being posted.
Now they're hanging out thereand they're seeing that there's
a means to an end.
It's not just like shit postingand goofy, it's like yeah, it
is, but the strategy is I wantyou to think about this person.
There's chess and there'scheckers.

(01:12:24):
If you want somebody to watch awrestling match with someone,
the last thing you want to do issay watch this person here, now
Checkers.
What you want to do is jab, jab, jab, hook.
I want to do something goofy, Iwant to do a match-up, I want
to do a throwback thing of hismatch and then I want to say

(01:12:46):
watch him.
So he, he had such engagement onthe back end that there was a
point in time where people watchhis matches more than Jordan
Burroughs Statistically he wasthe most watched wrestler and I
think some of it is because ofhim and his personality.
I think some of it is theinstitutional support for some

(01:13:10):
of these off collar marketingstrategies that kind of made
them like a quasi celebrity, youknow.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
Yeah, I mean mean honestly, if, in knowing those
posts because I mean I've I'vebeen following flow for quite
some time and knowing thoseposts like as a, as a general
person I'll call myself thecivilian sitting off to the side
.
Now I'm the one scrollingthrough and all of a sudden you
see austin de santo's headpopping up in the back seat of

(01:13:38):
someone's like caravan orsomething like that.
You're like what the hell wasthat austin?
And you scroll back throughthat and, yeah, I click on that
right, like that's, that's likea what now?
What is it saying?
They're like, are they sayinghe's taking a ride in a minivan
somewhere?
Like what's going on?
Nope, then you guys are justtalking about some.
Hey, austin's taking a tripover to here, he's you know
whatever.
So it works.
It works and, trust me, I'mtrying to take as many notes as

(01:14:02):
I can right now.
I'm paying attention to whatyou're saying, cause it.
It actually makes.
Not only does it engage, but itsounds like for the person
doing it.
It's just as fun for the persondoing it, you know, as their
job, like it's.
It's something that you kind oftalked about before, like I
want to do something that I likeyou know something that I want
to do and you didn't get itinstantly but, man, you were
working your way to get to thatand now you're there.

(01:14:22):
And so some of the some of theother I mean there's got to have
been crazier things thathappened there, because now I
remember watching joelwilliamson making weird videos
of him.
Uh, were they in a hotel roomand they're wrestling and and
some of the bits that they did.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
The Russians arm wrestling that was my favorite
bit, I would pump that all thetime.
The drunk Russians are smokingcigarettes trying to arm wrestle
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
And then they brought Greg Wasn't Greg Warren on for
some of them, because he was aMissouri guy along with Joe, and
they did some little skits andstuff like that.
I can't remember what thecouple different uh outfits they
put on and they're playingcharacters, but so you guys were
having fun.
I mean, to me I want to almostpaint it out as like the google
of wrestling, right like youguys were having fun doing what

(01:15:08):
you're doing.
I mean, I'm sure there's stillsome structure to it, but were
you guys able to just kind of,when you walked into work were
you in flip-flops and in shortsand and yeah, see, that's what
I'm saying, so that things musthave got a little crazy at times
around there just having fun ingeneral.
So that sounds like it was inthe beginning and we all we all
know I mean, especially ifyou've been in the wrestling

(01:15:28):
world that flow wrestling's kindof taking some little turns
here and there and doingwhatever they do, but at the
same point it seems like it's apretty.
It seemed like at that point itwas a pretty free-flowing type
of thing.
Guys were having wrestlers,like you were actually seeing
wrestlers that were joining thecrews and having fun doing
something.
It made wrestling.
It seemed like a little moreaccessible to people, not just

(01:15:51):
sweaty dudes and singlets on amat, you know, grabbing each
other, like they say um, but youmade it, you guys made it more
engaging.
You made it more, um, uh,biteable for someone like the,
an outside person, like my wife,for example, who knows sports
but didn't know anything aboutwrestling, and now she knows the
place that she can go to checkout wrestling news and just kind

(01:16:12):
of see what's going on ontwitter and things like that.
But when you're, when you'rethere and kind of going through
the process of what they do, howlong before I guess things
start to kind of like change alittle bit.
Because I, I know, obviously weall know of Rockfin, you know
and we know of Float Wrestlingand we know that the, the
brothers, existed and thingslike that, that the things that

(01:16:33):
happened.
But when, when did when werethings starting to kind of
change?
It was that, was that very longafter you were there, was that
like a year or two?

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
so I've worked.
I run a marketing business now.
I work with tons of differentclients yeah I lost tons of
clients.
In anything, anything I've everdone anywhere, I lose five
times as much as everyone else.
I'm just so stupid that I keepcoming back for more.
So I've lost clients where Ididn't do as well as I should

(01:17:07):
have, which isn't very many.
But sometimes the product isn'tviable, sometimes the startup
runs out of money, sometimesright you, you lose some of
those.
What I found is sometimes, ifyou do too good of a job, what I
see, what I've seen in someplaces where I think I've done
my best work, isinter-organizational subversion.

(01:17:30):
You do a really, really goodjob and then someone's like Ooh,
I want that responsibility.
Ooh, I like what's happeninghere.
Oh, I want this, I want thisvoice.
So I said the hierarchy is nickshank and then nick belkett and
then it's myself, mhm.
They were my advocates, whoallowed me to perform freely,

(01:17:59):
which resulted in these types ofperformances.
If someone came and they had aproblem with it or they didn't
like it, and anytime you try todisrupt anything, people aren't
going to like it, like you'regoing to have to.
You know, always, anytime youdo something new, you need
advocates in your corner to belike oh, that's my guy, this is
working.

(01:18:19):
I explained the fruit and thesubliminal message.
Right, I could come and I couldroot it to like data and
business KPIs while we weredoing this.
I was having a lot of fun doingit.
So for me it started to godownhill when those guys left
and I no longer had thoseadvocates and the platform

(01:18:42):
started to get really big,because now and you see it, I
mean, I've run some huge socialaccounts in sports.
I mean fan-controlled footballI built from nothing to $150,000
.
Fan-controlled football I builtfrom nothing to $150,000.
When the platforms get too big,everyone wants their hand in
the cookie jar.

(01:19:03):
Everyone wants to.
I want to post content this way, that way.
So as it got really big andthat became, why did that become
the primary messaging tool andthe primary messaging channel?
Because of the dissemination ofinformation and data analysis
to understand how and wherepeople consume messages, the

(01:19:23):
website is no longer the primarycommunication tool.
The website, when I say layeredcontent, becomes middle and
high.
It becomes qualitative.
You're not going to the websitefor, like, a quick news tip.
You're going to the website formore in-depth things that need
to be fluffed out, not somethingthat could be explained that

(01:19:45):
quickly.
So that's when it startedhappening for me and I saw a
little bit ofinterorganizational subversion
where it's like I don't like theway this is, or maybe jealousy
of like I want to be running, Icould do a better job.

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
Oh, look at how many followers I want to which
ultimately was the uh, thebitter end for me there.
So so you had, you had fun andflow.
But there's something else thatyou also put out there that
wasn't.
It wasn't too long ago Iwouldn't say maybe it was eight
years ago or so but you startedup.

(01:20:22):
So we talk, we see in the newsa lot where you know, oh man,
he's going to retire.
I wish I could watch himwrestle, I wish he would
continue and he's not going todo the worlds or Olympics
anymore.
Man, I wish you were someplaceyou could wrestle Right.
And in my mind I always kind ofthought about that too.
Like man, I wonder if thereever was something that these
guys could like try their handat once.
They're done eithercollegiately or even world.

(01:20:44):
Some of these guys are still inshape and they want to compete
once in a while.
So you decided to start up aprofessional wrestling type of
league Correct, what year wasn'tthat?
Your baby?

Speaker 3 (01:21:01):
so I tried the one that we're talking about.
Probably now yeah, is it me.
I just helped them out.
I did myself and I've got adata point on professional
wrestling in general.
So after I left flow, I'm likeI want to own the product't want

(01:21:21):
to be at the mercy ofdepartments.
Move around.
I have a new boss.
People don't know.
I want to bring in my ownpeople.
I was like I don't want thatanymore.
I'm going to create my ownbusiness.
I called it Fantasy Fight League.
Fantasy Fight League wasfantasy wrestling platform where
you could go.
We had different events.
You pick whoever, you getpoints, you show up on the

(01:21:41):
leaderboard, you get prizes.
That was cool.
I myself was kind of hesitanton the legality of it.
I mean, we're giving prizes.
I have advisors.
They say it's cool.
It made me feel kind of icky.
Gambling in general makes mefeel a little icky.
But I wanted an engagement toolKeep people involved.

(01:22:05):
We didn't really give out cash.
We give out cool wrestlingshoes or jackets or whatever.
So this goes on.
For a while I tried video gameswith Fantasy Fight League.
I'm like all right, I'm goingto pivot, I'm going to make so.
I still am the only personwho's ever made a wrestling
video game.
You can play it now.
I'm finished.

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):
Holy cow, what's it called?

Speaker 3 (01:22:30):
Wrestling 22.
Had Yanni on the cover, Isigned NIL deals with a bunch of
Trent Heidly, pat Corey,ja'cory, teamer, yanni Vito.
Yeah, yeah, it's like mortalcombat.
Play it on your computer, don'tplay it on your phone.
I'm like a little club.
Yeah, I'll give you asubscription.
It's behind a paywall, but uh,yeah, it's like, it's like

(01:22:53):
mortal combat.
Right, it's like a computer.
So I say, okay, well, maybe notfantasy.
I said maybe I'll make videogames.
That would be cool.
That didn't really work either,as is anything right.
Again, I failed 10 times foreverything that works.
So I go back and I'm like, okay, well, I've got this fantasy
software that's already built.

(01:23:13):
I was like it'd be cool.
Something that's standing inthe way of professional
wrestling is the charitystructure that supports.
Are you looking?

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
at the video game.
I can see laughing.
No, I'm looking at your mom.
It's so cool.

Speaker 3 (01:23:29):
Even I could take wrestlers down that's awesome
good plug I know, but uh, yeah,so I'm like, okay, well, I've
got this fantasy software.
It's really important to methat wrestlers have and I don't
know how it's going to workright, hopefully what they're

(01:23:51):
doing, which I'm trying to helpthem.
I'm a huge supporter of whatthey're doing.
A problem that wrestling facesis the top wrestlers get paid
through a charity structure.
They win medals.
They get RTC bonuses.
They get USA Wrestling getsthem bonuses.

(01:24:12):
Yeah, they have no incentive topromote themselves.
They have no incentive towrestle anything outside of the
UWW cycle.
Why am I going to take a matchfor a couple grand?
That's going to hinder mychances on winning a medal,
which is how I get paid to keepmy family sure.
All the top guys are out.
They're never going to touchthat.

(01:24:33):
Fine.
What wrestlers believe theyshould be paid, I think, is
disproportionate to value.
We've seen people come in a awlI think it was called.
Everyone got paid a lot ofmoney.
People put a lot of money intoit and I think people are always

(01:24:55):
surprised at the draw.
Right, yeah, like jiu-jitsuguys, mma guys, they build
themselves up so they become adraw, so people watch, they make
money for sure.
That's no part of wrestlers, no.
So I said okay with fantasyfight league.
Okay, I was like maybe we couldjust use random people who are

(01:25:17):
good enough that a wrestlingaudience can watch and they seem
legit and I'll tie in fantasyinto it.
So you have reason to care.
These are all up on youtube.
We did them last summer okay,okay and uh, I went and we had
one guy flew in from mike nowhelp me with it.
We're like cursing oh yeah,having fun, right, yeah, so we,

(01:25:40):
uh, we have some guy flying infrom buffalo, but the rest of
them were just like dudes inaustin.
It's like anyone who knows howto wrestle, please come.
Yeah, we tried to put me, triedto put music over the because
it was in a gym, but what Ifound so something that I'm

(01:26:00):
finding is and I think cwa isdoing a good job getting guys
that are good enough thatthey're a draw.
We can't get the best guyswe're never going to, but
they're getting really good guys.
Ronnie Perry they just got.
He's in NCAA finals.
That's a draw.
My approach was maybe I can getpeople who aren't a draw and I

(01:26:23):
can market them into being adraw.
I can layer in content inbetween matches to tell their
story.
You can tune in and not knowanything about them and you have
a reason to care.
You're making picks, you'relearning their story.
Nobody cared, nobody cared.
Oh man, man, I couldn't get 500people to watch it for free.

(01:26:47):
I got some clout.
I had a huge email list.
I did it in the summer, whichwas probably not a good idea,
but I had an email list of30,000 people.
I was sending tons of emails,social posts, ads, the whole
marketing gauntlet and stuff.
Nobody cared.
So I think the takeaway for meafter that so now we're at three

(01:27:15):
fantasy play league failures inthe past 10 minutes.
But my takeaway there is theguys need to be good enough,
like they can't just be likerandom people.
They need to have a draw, theyneed to be able to lean on their
schools, they need to be fromruckers, iowa, penn state, ohio
state, and we need additionalmarketing support from the

(01:27:37):
schools to distribute to theiraudience.
Hey, this guy lock, haven'sdoing a good job.
Goody was tweeting about GregBulsack today.
Rutgers media was tweeting.
That's how we get it.
The guys are good shouldn't saygood enough.
The guys are good and they'rebeing supported by where they

(01:27:57):
have their largest fan base,which is associated with the
school.
So I think it has a good chance.
I mean those guys are workinghard on that.
They're smart, they have a teamof people working on it.
So ultimately, I mean we saw aguy tweeting about how kids
should stay back, which everyonewas having a good time dunking

(01:28:19):
on him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah this is.

Speaker 2 (01:28:23):
I talked about it a lot on here with the whole, with
the whole hold hold back with,with the bassets and things like
that, because I've had the bestboth bassets on.
I've had both of them on theshow a while back.
So I love watching those kidswrestle, right, I love it, I.
But I don't.
But I don't like the fact thatpeople are like, oh, he's a
sophomore in high school.
Well, yeah, because that justhappens to be the grade he's in.

(01:28:45):
Now.
I think you made the comment.
These kids are still steppingup and they're going to
wrestling college guys, so it'snot the takeaway from those guys
at all.
I think what it really is isthe aspect of someone saying
that the only way that you'regoing to be able to be
successful or make it is youneed to be held back a year.
You should be held back a year.
You should be held back.
You are, you're good.
You are you're good.
There's a worst advice to evergive a kid ever, because not

(01:29:10):
every kid needs to be held back,right?
I mean, staracci was the wholefocus of that discussion.
He wasn't held back.
You know, like there's novalidity behind anything that he
even put behind it.
And, granted, there are peoplelike you.
You know it doesn't bother methat he said that.
Well, that's fine, but if Iwere a parent that was in that
room and I hear this guy tellingmy kid that I need to hold him
back because that way he'll besuccessful at wrestling like are

(01:29:32):
you saying that he's no good?
Now you can't basically tellingkids they're not any good
unless they get held back andthat that was just like you got
to be kidding me.

Speaker 3 (01:29:40):
This is the worst advice I've ever heard in my
entire life well the core ofthat problem and I understand
his thought process, even thoughI don't agree with it.
Bo, for example, should skipgrades because he can compete in
college now yeah, if he wantsto win olympic medals.

(01:30:01):
Basketball the basketballplayers skip grades because they
have to go to college for oneyear.
They want to get to the NBAsooner.
Guys coming out of footballit's hard because of the
physical development.
So basketball players iffootball players could they
would skip grades because theywant to get to that first pro

(01:30:23):
contract quicker so they can getto the second pro contract
quicker.
The problem with wrestling isthe pinnacle both now,
especially for financialopportunity, and also for
marketability.
Your pinnacle is college.
So guys stay back becausethey're trying to position

(01:30:43):
themselves to get the bestcollege opportunity because
that's where the pinnacle is.
So I think if we get to a pointwhere it's world championships
or Olympic titles orprofessional league, where the
true pinnacle is post-collegeand someone like Bo is skipping
grades so he can get throughcollege quicker, so he can go

(01:31:05):
and compete at this level, Iagree.
But if people are making 500grand to wrestle season in
college, I mean I can understandthe thought process of I'm
going to pay back because that'smy payday, that's where I'm
going to get paid, but that's sofew and far between giving that

(01:31:26):
advice at such a blanketedlevel.
It's gonna hurt people because,like I said earlier, like that
messes you, like I've seen a lotof sick savant level wrestlers
and end up kind of messed updown the line.
And something that'll mess youup right away is you're in
seventh grade.
Stay back again.

(01:31:46):
That's a big difference.
Six and seventh grade.
Now you're with the sixthgraders.
Yeah, now all your friends arein high school.
Yep, right.
So it's like, yeah, that'sweird for you, and like what's a
social aspect that can wreckyou exactly socially.
It's like, okay, now I'm on thisisland where I'm like all in on
wrestling and I'm 12 and it'slike, well, if this doesn't work

(01:32:08):
out, then like yeah, not good.

Speaker 2 (01:32:11):
How do you come back from that?
You know that's we because wedon't get me wrong, it's not
that we didn't ever think aboutyou know, like, okay, what, what
are the benefits of doing thiswith, like with liam, my son?
What are the benefits that he'sgoing to get from it?
And I I've always kind oflooked at, in my perspective,
the social aspect, more for kidsin in that the school age, than

(01:32:33):
the sports perspective, becauseyou may be really good at your
sport but socially there's a lotof kids are like, why are you
doing that?
Like why, how come you're notgoing and doing this?
Like how come you're not goingand playing?
You know, with these guys, whenwe go do it because, well, I
want to wrestle, now you gotkids are like, well, that's
weird, like why are you onlydoing that?
So?
And you know how the mind of akid works and it starts rolling

(01:32:56):
into more weird situations andwhy it's even weirder and
everything like that.
Then it turns into making funand then it it rolls downhill
from there.
So I again and I understandyour argument as well the
benefits, of course, if, if theycould predict that their son
was going to be a freshman inhigh school and weigh 96 pounds
and get crushed.
Like you don't know that,though, either, like, as a

(01:33:17):
parent, you don't know that yourkids only get bows growing.
Just fine, you know he's, he'smaturing very well.
So to the aspect of and I can'tblame the kids, because the kids
don't make these choices right.
Like, the kids go along for theride.
They hear the reasoning frommom and dad.
Maybe they bring a coach to theside and have them talk to him
about it, but the kids don'tmake the decision.

(01:33:37):
The parents are the ones thatare putting these kids in these
positions.
Do I think the kids have alittle bit of a say?
I think they have a little bitof a say, but I also know how a
parent runs a house, and ninechance out of 10, we're doing
this for the better of yourfuture, that's why we're doing
this.
They'd paint it as a benefit tothe kid, and the kids then tell
their friends well, I'm goingto be able to do this, but those

(01:33:58):
kids don't understand that.
So, either way, it just seemslike to me it just keeps rolling
downhill socially.
And then you know, sports wise,I just don't think.
I don't think personally, thatthere's really a payoff, because
now the NCAA is going to changeRight, like this is all going
to go completely different thanwhat it was before, and six
hundred dollar maximums on NILsunless it's approved, and you

(01:34:21):
know things like that.
So, knowing that, so knowingthat, that, yeah, you know,
maybe maybe both could cash in,but maybe by the time he's going
to be going yeah, they're stillgoing to, don't get me wrong,
they're still going to havedonors.
These colleges aren't losingdonors by any means, but they're
going to have to go throughdifferent avenues to be able to
make that money because of theschool.
If the school doesn't approveit.
And there's an I think it's aanother arbitrary, uh, outside

(01:34:42):
entity that approves these,these, they can't just be like
oh, I'm going to go do this andI want to make $500,000 with
this place.
It all has to get approvedbecause they're an athlete and
technically going to be gettingpaid by the school.
They're almost going to be aschool employee, so the rules
that go along with it are goingto change, and that's, I think,

(01:35:04):
to me, is going to bring theperspective.
Hopefully it changes theperspective a little bit more on
that, because I know that I hey, if I were a kid and I think
you mentioned it too if I were akid out in the atmosphere right
now, you think I'm not going totry and grab for 500 grand.
Oh yeah, I'm gonna, you knowI'm, especially if I'm carter
stirachi or someone that be you,I'm going to be done with
college pretty soon.
I'd love to have a nice cushionsitting inside a bank account

(01:35:27):
by the time I'm done.
You know, pay my school off andbe ready.
So it's a mixed emotion for me,because I can see the benefits,
but a lot of times to me it justseems like the negatives weigh
down the benefits from it a lot.
So it's I don't see it asreally a good thing, but I guess
it's all situational too.
Everything's really situationalreally.
I mean certain things work outfor certain people and like,
look at spencer lee.

(01:35:47):
You know I mean that kid.
He was an anomaly too, comingout of high school.
Uh, how many, how many you knowfreshmen like that have we seen
in ncaa history being able tocome out?
Now, he didn't get those nildeals, you know he didn't.
He didn't, uh, he wasn't ableto rate that in.
It might be a different now withHWC, but I just think the
perspective that we have withsports is not necessarily a bad

(01:36:07):
one, but I think we're.
I think even with basketball,before all this happened, I
think we were trying to turncollege sports too much into a
lucrative business for theathlete itself.
I think that they should begetting recognized and I think
if the, if the college isgenuinely making money off of
their image, them, and I thinkif the college is genuinely
making money off of their imagethem showing up at a game
because they play for them, sure, I think there's some

(01:36:27):
compensation that should be had.
But I think just throwing 500grand at a kid and saying here's
a check, how about you put thatinto a school account that pays
for their books and pays fortheir education and make it so
it makes sense to them and theycan be like okay, this is what I
need to make sure that I'mtaking care of.
It gives them a sense ofresponsibility.

(01:36:48):
Just throwing them a bag ofmoney and it's like holy cow,
these kids.
They're barely even able tolike.
They're 17, 18, making adecision of their lives for the
next four or five years.
Now you're throwing money inthe mix.
It's like man.
I hope these kids have somesmart parents because this could
get really hairy really quickand obviously we found out
really quick with the nil whatthat did with sports in general.

Speaker 3 (01:37:05):
So but hopefully it's no more the wild west well,
it's good for the athlete I'malways pro athlete side like
it's good for the athletes, sure, but if college wrestling is
going to turn into a fundraisingrat race, well, how many rich

(01:37:26):
people like?
That just doesn't seemsustainable, and it also I know
that only a couple of teams haveever won.
You know, the programs aregetting slashed all the time,
like if, if we've got teams thatare bankrolled at $ million
dollars and teams that areactually playing by the
scholarship.
We don't have any of that.

(01:37:48):
It's not good for the game.
It's good for the athletes.
It's not good for the game,though.
Like we're not on.
There's a reason.
The salary cap exists inprofessional sports right
correct right, that's right.
Sure, it would be great if and Iknow baseball, they don't but
they have the salary cap.

(01:38:09):
So it's like we're competingevenly against each other and
that's like strategy how youmove it around.
But if you've got a team that'sbankrolled at $20 million
competing against a team that'sbankrolled by $15 grand from
bake sale, you know it's not getrun out of town.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
yeah, well, I'll tell you what I.
I keep these around about anhour and a half because I think
after a while we start to losethe kids attention, you know.
So you know how they get alittle squirrel and start
looking around and not payingattention anymore.
But I am glad to have had you onum.
I do want to talk to you more,a little bit more more once
we're done here and we hang upon the folks.
But I do want to talk a littlebit more about you know kind of

(01:38:50):
things we've been talking about.
You know, maybe we carry thison a little bit, see what, see
what we can do If there'ssomething that you're interested
in doing and getting some moreof your, your stuff out and
maybe just kind of making this alittle more dynamic.
But we'll see what happens.
I think, uh, I think what you'redoing and I think, again, the
take that you are able to havewith this, the perspective that
you have, is very unique and Ithink the way that you have been

(01:39:12):
able to navigate throughcertain areas professional
football, uh, just a localnewspaper to flow wrestling.
I mean, in this sport thatwe're you know we're talking
more right now flow wrestling atone point was the be-all,
end-all.
Now we got all kinds of guyscoming out doing their own thing
, which is, I think, flowWrestling, helped create all
that.
I mean, obviously it wassomething that was way different

(01:39:35):
.
Before anybody was doing it.
You had track wrestling, but itwas like reading articles and
once in a while you see thoseguys post a video up with an
interview with an athlete, whichwas great.
But then Flo took it to anotherlevel and everybody's like I
want to do that, and so now wehave what we have, you know?
So it's, it's definitely what'sthat?

Speaker 3 (01:39:52):
Same yeah, Same with me I was.
I was one of the OGbandwagoners where it's like
that's really cool, I should dothat.

Speaker 2 (01:40:00):
Yeah, so I think it's .
It's definitely a a uniqueperspective to be able to have,
and especially with your.
You know the social mediaexperience and, like I said, I
don't know SEOs and I don'tyou're some of the stuff that
you'd mentioned before with withthe jargon for, for social
media.
I don't know it, I'm just anold dude that sits in a basement

(01:40:21):
doing a podcast, you know.
But uh, but I love what I do, Ilove doing this and that's why
I do it.
I always want to have theinteresting take on things and
whether it's an athlete or, youknow, or a guy that's been an
athlete into I had footballplayers on him.
Now he, now he's got anextremely successful country
band.
So it's it's.
It's one of those things whereI like the different
perspectives of everybody thatpeople can bring in.

(01:40:43):
Whether or not we get 5,000likes or views or whatever it is
, it's for the love of it isreally what it is.
And that's another reasonbecause I can tell, just by the
way that you comment on things,that you have a genuine mind,
for you know things that aregoing on to have a not only a
unique perspective but agrounded perspective, you know.
So I that perspective, but agrounded perspective, you know.

(01:41:06):
So I that's why I was like I'm.
I think I need to get this guyon.
So I appreciate your time andyour.
Your mom has been probably oneof the most engaged people, uh,
on this.
She she agreed with me talkingabout kids, but it's been
fantastic having Suzanne on thebackground, so I appreciate it.
Mom, thank you very much.
Um, we are going to end thishere.
Do you have any shout outs?
I've been starting to do this alittle more.

(01:41:28):
Do you have any shout outs orany props to people who are
saying hi to anybody?
You said hi to your mom, so wegotta make sure we say hi again
to that.

Speaker 3 (01:41:35):
But anything specifically out there you want
to give a shout out to, you knowyou've really made it when
you're on a podcast and just seecomments from your mom coming
through the thing the entiretime.
That's.

Speaker 2 (01:41:51):
I think it's awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:41:52):
I honestly I know it's great, yeah, but I I
appreciate what you're doing andI appreciate everyone in this
space.
Something that I love isauthenticity.
I don't think chasing clout orchasing engagement or chasing

(01:42:13):
likes I think that's a race tothe bottom.
So I appreciate people like you.
I appreciate the majority ofpeople who are delivering
messages around wrestling aredoing it because they love it
and I respect the hell out ofthat, so shout out to all of
them.

Speaker 2 (01:42:30):
Appreciate it.
Well, we'll end it here and seeif I can find my music here,
because that's the special part,but it's been another episode
of the Vision Quest podcast.
Guys, go check out some of oursponsors.
There's Anabolic Army, there is920 Hat Company and then
Appleton Tattoo podcast.
Guys.
Uh, go check out some of oursponsors.
There's um anabolic army.
There is nine two or nine twooh hat company and then appleton
tattoo.
Uh, anabolic army can be foundon amazon.

(01:42:52):
Um, you can also find nine twooh hat company on facebook,
instagram.
Anabolic armies on uh tiktokinstagram, uh facebook, you name
it.
Um appleton tattoo.
You can't buy those guys onAmazon.
You actually got to go to thoseguys because they actually put
stuff on your skin.
So if you're in the Wisconsinarea, go check them out.
But again, I've been Joe Joe,it's been awesome, so I

(01:43:15):
appreciate it.
Again, we're going to let himgo and we're going to let you
guys go and then until next time.
I think we got one next week,so we Until next time.
I think we got one next week,so we'll see you guys later and
then I'm going to talk to youafter this, so hang out for a
minute.
Peace folks.

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#100 Joe Kania's Tale - From High School Fields to Pro Sports Media

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#100 Joe Kania's Tale - From High School Fields to Pro Sports Media