#53 - CJ Vroman - Owner - Coach - Trainer At First There Training Facility - The Vision Quest Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, everybody, welcome back to yet another.
This is numero dose for theweekend, another vision quest
podcast episode.
This one is a little different,not too much.
Well, no, it's different, it'sdifferent.
This is CJ Roman.
Cj is not only the owner, buthe's also a coach and a trainer

(00:25):
at a place called first, theirtraining facility.
That is down.
In what town is that again, cj?
where is that?
Twin Lakes, twin Lakes, that'sright.
So you're down like what?
Kenosha Racine, all that stuffdown there.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
West of West of Kenosha, just north of the
Illinois border, but when theyspot up again Richmond, yeah,
it's a nice little area.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
I mean, we've been down there a few times.
It's a nice little area downthere, though, as far as just
surroundings, and I mean youguys have plenty to do as far as
I guess training goes.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
I would say For me, i've got everything I need
around there.
You know, there's there'splenty of parks around, there's
a two mile running trail rightthere, there's the beach and the
water right down there.
The town, the town itself, thepolice force uses the gym
periodically.
When they got to do sometraining.
They're very receptive.

(01:18):
To me, nice Running aroundbeing a nuisance.
The only problem with TwinLakes is there's, like you know,
17 bars and two other shops.
Right, and I get it, i get it.
We live in Wisconsin and people, if you're as per the, if
you're proud of that, if you'reproud of 17 bars and two other

(01:40):
shops and you're like, yeah, goWisconsin, me and you're a
different people, so much,that's not okay.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
So much I just did something like that.
in social media They're listinglike Wisconsin had was the top
10 drunkest cities, or whatever.
Like we had five of them andout of the 20 out of the country
I can't remember It was we werelike 15 on the list or whatever
.
It's like holy cow what isgoing on around here.
But hey, kills COVID, right.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, I mean, like I said, if you're proud of that I
saw that one too If you're proudof that, you and me are vastly
different people.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'm not making a banner anytime soon for that one
, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
But I mean I spent.
I spent my 20s and we'll get itall this.
I spent my 20 to travel on theworld, living a very active life
.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
And I did all that and I understand they're.
When you're younger there's atime for.
But these people are doing thesame things I would.
These people aren't engaging inthe same activities, aren't
doing the same physicallifestyle.
They're just going to thefucking bar and getting fat.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
So so, speaking of that, starting at you, you know,
when you're 20s.
So where did you start off withwith sports?
Where, where did your sportsentity or your kind of sports
lifestyle start?
Was that real little like fouror five?
When did you start in sports?

Speaker 2 (03:04):
So I listened to, i've listened to a lot of your
podcasts.
I've been listening to everyone.
I've listened to probably mostof them.
but listen to these stories ofthese people and everything, and
there's a common thread ofpeople starting sports young, or
at least starting in somethingyoung.
I didn't start until juniorhigh.

(03:25):
My very blue collar family, verysmall town you know not what
was me, but I grew up in a 700square foot house.
Most people, you know bedrooms,are that size.
It's not that we couldn't, it'snot that we couldn't, it's just
that that wasn't our life.
So I mean, until I got into theschools that had it, until I

(03:46):
got into middle school, i didn'tdo anything right.
I just roamed the neighborhoodand got in fights and climbed
trees and did all that fun stuff.
That's pretty sweet back thentoo, you know.
Oh, it was, it was.
we had a great neighborhood forthat.
We had a good, vast amount ofkids and we all, you know we all
took care of each other but atthe same time beat the hell out
of each other.
And it was.

(04:07):
you know, i can, i can, i canstill remember me being a kid on
one of those hot wheels threewheels deal And and my brother
and his friends used to play agame, and this isn't very
appropriate anymore, but theyused to call it.
they used to call the gameRodney King.
Oh, hey, yeah, yeah, veryinappropriate, we've learned.

(04:32):
we've learned since then but,it wasn't.
It wasn't because of anythingexcept for what you would do,
yeah.
Well, but no, it was, it wasjust the physical activity.
So what they would do is Iwould go down the hill and they
would ride their bikes next tome and kick at me or hit me with
something until I got knockedoff the three wheeler, and then
proceed to, you know, be done.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Well, hey, i mean, either learn how to ride fast or
die hard, that's for sure Youknow my dumb ass likes the game
My dumb ass is all about it So,so, like games like that prepped
you for what happened in middleschool.
Is that basketball?
you joined What?
what was that sport that gotyou into athletics?

Speaker 2 (05:13):
God knows I was.
I was 14 pounds of birth andfat until sixth grade.
Yeah, I feel that Plus it all itactually it all kind of
happened like fifth, fifth grade.
My brother I had a.
I have a brother who's threeand a half years older than me.
He wrestled in middle schooland high school was never, you
know, was your average varsitywrestler.

(05:36):
And then it was on some verygood teams, had some very good
people.
We, we went to McHenry highschool.
So, yep, mchenry in thenineties had had very
competitive teams in Illinois.
We never, never won a teamstate but they were they're
always deep in the sectionalsand then or in the team state
and then knocked out.
But he wrestled.

(06:00):
So I got into my fifth gradeyear in the summer.
Between fifth and sixth grade Igot tired of being short and fat
And I tell this story at times.
I decided I was going to dosomething and I started running
every day.
I knew I was going to wrestle.
I was like my brother wrestled,i'm going to wrestle And.
And I started running every dayAnd my dad got an old weight

(06:21):
bench and concrete weights andall that And I went in the
garage and I started liftingweights and no real instruction,
no real tutelage.
So I also started reading books.
I picked up the Arnold andbodybuilding psychopedia, right,
nice And that was my, that wasmy go to for move, for movements

(06:44):
, right, like, oh, i'm going to,how do I do this, how do I work
that?
And and then I went into sixthgrade and actually wrestled on
the the A team, if you will,because they had A and B, mainly
because I was at least exposedto it, right, my brother
wrestling and all that.

(07:04):
I was at least exposed towrestling.
I started doing this work and Iwas a hundred pounds and I
could beat the seventh or eighthgrade kid who was a hundred
pounds and had the spot.
So there you go, yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Well, you had a you guys had a middle school team to
have two teams.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
Oh, yeah, yeah We had three, mchenry.
McHenry is a big town, right,it's a.
it's a big area and it has alot of people and it always had
high numbers.
It's in the nineties and early2000, in in football and
wrestling.
So nice, okay, very, very highnumbers.
And I remember I remember myfirst match, right.

(07:46):
And here I am.
I'm a, i'm a sixth grader, i'mon the A team.
I've been making this my ownpersonal journey body
transformation.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
And I go out there over wrestling Grant, fox Lake
And and I didn't know anythingabout clubs I did, i did, we had
, we had a family up up the roadfor me, the Wilson brothers.
They were I K W F statechampions, state places in high
school big wrestling family.

(08:15):
They went out to Chris likewizards, right.
So I knew the wizards was athing, but there's no way we
were doing that.
My dad got home from work at530.
My mom got home at five.
Dad drove from Chris Lake backhome.
He was like yeah, I'm not, i'mnot driving back to Chris Lake.
So yeah, i was, i was yeah, ican't get.
Yeah, you can.

(08:35):
You can go run around.
You want this.
I'll do what I need to get youthis.
Do you want me to drive toChris Lake?
Fuck, no, oh yeah.
So so and Fox Lake had a clubright, they had a club.
And I walk out there and coachis like Hey, you're wrestling on
a fifth grader, you'll be, youknow, it's be good, you'll have
a good match.
You don't have to worry aboutwrestling eighth grader or
something like yeah, i'mwrestling fifth grader, i'm

(08:57):
going to whoop in the ass And Igot, i got split old in like 30
seconds, so yeah.
I mean it was just and thebefore the match.
You know, i can still rememberthis.
I don't remember any, you know,i remember a lot of things, but
I don't remember a lot of thewrestling things.
And I but I remember, likebefore the match, on the

(09:18):
sideline, like you do, you, you,i am down and you sides them up
and he's just looks just fine.
He's just got this little smileon his face Like yeah, you're
fucked And it is fine, i know.
Now he's like you're fucked,you don't even, you don't even
know what you're doing, Yeah,All right.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
So I mean obviously, I mean when you're wrestling
them and stuff, I mean we're,before he even got displayed
along you, where you kind offeel like whoa, he, wait a
minute, what's this?
a fifth grader?

Speaker 2 (09:44):
No, it probably wasn't even.
It probably wasn't even 30seconds It was.
You know, i'm a I've alwaysbeen a very attack oriented, a
very uh, you know, let's, let'sgo.
So I was so whistle blows, i'mlike, oh, i'm going, and uh, and
, and you know, i don't rememberall the details, but obviously
I was in on a leg and next thingI know him on my back.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
Then you weren't Yeah , right on, right on.
So what?
what?
what kind of?
I mean as far as, like you knowhow we have gear.
Now, what were your singletslike back then?
What did you guys have for?
were they wool?

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Uh, they were, they were almost.
I think they were like the nextstep after wall.
Uh.
I can remember, i can remembermy brother being in something
like that, and then then when Icame in there, they were that
thick, uh, that thick, i don'tknow what you call it.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
You know that I don't know what that was either.
It's still.
It still felt like it was stilllike a basketball jersey back
then, like just a yeah it was itwas a basketball jersey feel.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
It didn't stretch much You, you put it on and it
generally had the saggingneckline and all that Yeah.
You know somebody too big,somebody too big, warless once
and now.
It's never going back evergoing back again.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, so did you, did you?
I mean, granted, we we dealtwith what we dealt with when we
were little, you know middleschool little, whatever it was,
but like when you startedwrestling and and got into it.
Your brother did it, but was it, was it like instant love
because of the combat version,you know the, just the combat in
it and the hand to hand andit's on your own, did that kind
of draw you into it a little bitmore than just your brother?

Speaker 2 (11:27):
So, looking back at it, yes, looking back at it and
doing all that I've done, now I,i've made that correlation.
That what I love about thesport, yeah, and I don't, even,
i don't even to me, i don'tconsider it a sport.
Right, it is a sport, it's alifestyle.
Yeah, right It is, it is mylifestyle.
And zone And I love thelifestyle because of it was the

(11:49):
constant push right?
The constant challenge, theconstant what can I do against,
you know, opposite force?
Can I?
can I control not only myselfand you and the fact that you
could just wail away on yourselfand your partner and just come
away with such a feeling right?

(12:09):
So, like this morning, i didn'tswim this morning I went and
hit my barn and climbed for for40 minutes just to get that,
that feel.
You know that, like the oldArnold impression, to get the
pump in my forearm and in mybiceps, and you know, to get
that feel.
And you can do that inwrestling, and you don't get it

(12:29):
in a in just one local spot, youcan get it everywhere, like
your entire body is just, youknow, destroyed and it feels
great.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
That is a special breed.
I'll tell you this much justbecause I've been through a lot
of sports in my life and Itaught like, even like right now
I play soccer I put startedplaying soccer again, but I I
can't remember a time and that'sprobably what maybe not so much
a wrestler I was still anathlete.
But wrestlers are different.
They're just, they're builtdifferent.
The things they they go throughand went through at some point

(13:02):
are just different.
Where I couldn't, if I like Irolled my ankle when I played
soccer, i rolled it bad, i madea big pothole or whatever And I
rolled it over and I wanted toplay, like doing me wrong, like
that pain still was, like I'mplaying, i'm going in, i want to
play because I had a goal inmind at that point.
Whereas if that would havehappened, that practice, i
probably would have been likeI'm done, i'm done for the day,

(13:24):
i don't care.
But the moment that that wasgoing on, guys are running down
the field, we're in competition,like my brain was go.
But if it was like I said, ifit was a practice, my brain
probably had been like you know,you probably should sit down
and take a break, but whereas,like guys now Liam's to that
point now too, where I do okaywhatever.
It kind of hurts but I can makeit.
I'm going to go back out, youknow kind of thing.

(13:46):
But that's an individual sportAnd that's an individual
decision to be able to go backin like that because you're
fighting another individual,whereas I had teammates to back
me up, you know so yeah, it's.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
it's a give and take too.
So, like your practice example,the old school mentality isn't
necessarily always correct, sure.
Right.
Time wise and planning eventsand competitions and at higher
levels.
You know, it might be a littlebit of a move, you to just stop

(14:19):
and rest.
It's a dangerous thing, though,because if we can, if we apply
that to everyone, if we applythat, oh no, you got a little
boo-boo.
You can, you should stop, it'sbetter for you as it's better
for you as an athlete.
Then we lose those lessons, welose that grit, we lose that,
that you know, that ability topersevere, yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, Yeah.
So middle school was all rightfor you.
I mean, you said you're on theA team and things were good
right.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, and middle school continued as it was.
So I didn't wrestle IKWF, iwrestled IESA because, again, i
didn't know anything about clubs.
I knew about it, but there wasno way I could do it At that
point.
You could only do one or theother as well.
You weren't allowed to do IESAand IKWF.
Illinois Illinois is funky, idon't necessarily understand it,

(15:11):
but I found success.
I found success as a juniorhigh middle school wrestler.
And I was, you know, I think, myseventh and eighth grade year.
I won the conference which,again, in the big picture, you
know, means nothing, in theimmediate picture of other

(15:33):
competitive wrestlers meansnothing In my world.
It was huge.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, I made it to state my seventh grade year and
then my eighth grade year.
I took fifth and state I lostto a grant kid, a Fox Lake kid
that I lost to earlier in theyear.
And then I turned around andwrestled right after it.
It was literally like walked tothe stands like Hey, you're up

(15:57):
on here.
And walked out.
And was I okay?
Yeah, But that still plays afactor.
You know, motions are high.
I'm a young kid.
Yeah, for sure.
That's that one And then andthen won the last one And it was
.
It was phenomenal.
You know, my town, in my area,was huge.
It was, Oh my God, you know,look how good he did And it was
great.

(16:17):
You know, I had a lot ofsuccess and I really loved it.
And you know, like I said, mystyle was was attacking, and it
was nothing, wasn't funwrestling, It wasn't.
It wasn't enjoyable to fans, Itwas.
I'm going to take you down Now.
I'm just going to control theshit out of you And maybe I'll
turn you, maybe not.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Maybe not, maybe not, i'm not quite, i'm getting
there.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
But I don't know, i don't know anything but a half.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
I think there's a lot to be said.
You know, like you were saying,in the grand scheme of things,
did the wind matter?
I mean, obviously we tell kidsall the time, don't worry about
the W's and L's, worry about theprogress, right, and it's
easier said than done for us asthe person that's seeing them go
through that and knowing thatthat's really what it is about.
But I think, like you said, inthe moment, as a kid, when

(17:05):
you're having those situationsand it's a, it's something that
you've been working on, it's asa, as a, as an athlete or a kid
athlete, whatever it is So youhave these expectations of
yourself, not so much of thesituation or the win or the loss
, but you just have expectationsof yourself.
And we try to, as best as wecan, as coaches is, or as

(17:27):
parents, we try to wrangle thatin a little bit more to bring it
to a reality.
I think we do it more for us inthe instantaneous moment, just
like the kids dealing with, andthen you tend to move on from
that going in.
Parents do back to the win, lossthing.
You wouldn't have lost if youhad done this, or.
But you don't even need to bebadgering the kid Like it's just

(17:50):
, you're just telling him Hey,you wouldn't have lost if you,
maybe you'd have done this, ormaybe you would have won if
you'd done this.
Even that nice conversationstill kind of sets a kid up for
a little bit of a railing.
You know mentally like Oh fuck,i'm doing screwing stuff up,
when in reality all you'reasking is just that thing that
you could have done.
Do it, just do that better, andthen you'll see your result.
I think we don't explain itcorrectly sometimes but I think

(18:13):
with the mentality go ahead.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
What I really like and we'll get more into this as
we talk about my high schooltime as well what I really like
about your, your, your podcastis you focus a lot on talking
about the high level instructionthat's in the state and about
these, these college guys, thesenot even college guys, but
experienced, successful highschool wrestlers and people

(18:38):
coming back to community andgiving to the sport and
expanding these people'sknowledge.
Correct, uh, you know, i didn't.
Uh, i'm not, i wouldn't changeit.
What a single way things aredone.
Because of the otherexperiences I had in my life.
But, uh, i was a, i was a lostopportunity.
Right, i wanted, i was verycompetitive, i wanted to be good

(19:00):
at wrestling, i wanted to do somuch.
I had the work ethic.
I was up every morning myselfat five, six in the morning,
running and working out.
Um, when I got in high school,i had a coach uh who was who
would go to a gym nearby.
I would have my dad drive me tothat gym on the way to work and
I'd be there five in themorning, working out, cause I

(19:21):
knew that he was there and Icould get a ride to school
afterwards.
Yeah, Yeah, right.
And he was, he was amazed.
So it was, you know, the firstfew times I was there, i was
like, what are you don't ruin myworkout, get away from me, kid,
i just coach you.
And then, eventually, and then,like after a month or so, it
was like, yeah, start working inwith me.
And you know you're here andyou're committed to this, i'm
going to work with you.

(19:42):
Uh, so I was, i mean, even inmiddle school I was, i was doing
this.
But all my coaching in middleschool was exactly the, the
aspect where you said words, hey, you did great, good job,
that's it.
Yup, there was no.
My.
My high school my correction,my middle school wrestling coach

(20:02):
was a uh, uh, communicationsteacher.
He wrestled like one time Theyjust needed a coach, uh, you
know, and, and it was, it wasjust great.
I mean, he was a great schoolcoach.
It was good for the students,it was good for that.
But any competitive, uh, youknow, wrestler that wanted to
learn more and get better at it,it wasn't happening.

(20:24):
Um, so then my eighth gradeyear, we we did get a guy and
who wrestled uh, he did wrestlein college.
It was like his first yearteaching, you know, and he
wasn't that involved in it.
It was, it was same, and I'mjust getting my feet wet and
figuring out how this all works.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, so my entire middle schooltime was just Hey, whatever your

(20:46):
brother taught you or whatever,try to do that and we'll uh,
you know, go get him kid, yeah,so.
So I mean, it's good, it's good, but you need, like you're
saying, you need that thataspect trained to go and buy.
Yeah, you hear that.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
What's that?
Yeah, a little bit I heard thehorn.
That was all I heard, just aokay, all right.
Uh.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
You need that other aspect to wear.
Hey, good job.
Here's what you have to do toimprove.
Yep, right, if we leave right,right, improved, not winged,
right, correct, yeah, if we, ifwe leave that part out, then
then you're capped, right, youcan only go so high.
You can only go as high as yourphysical ability, right, and

(21:36):
that's that sums up.
My wrestling career is.
Is I had a very high physicalability?
Yep, very low wrestling skills.
Sure, sure, so.
So, whenever it got to thosethose high level matches, i was
at this event Sure If I couldn'twear you out.
I couldn't wear you out If Icouldn't move you know that,
that second batch of venue, if Icouldn't power through

(21:58):
something you were getting there.
Yeah.
Right on.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
That's, yeah, i think that you know just from playing
soccer select, my high schoolsoccer coach was.
He'd been coaching forever, buthe was like one of those guys
That started coaching youthsoccer or something And he
coached here for a couple ofyears.
That I think maybe he coachedin middle school but then it was
boom.
He was a high school coach Andhe wasn't a guy that traveled
all over the world.

(22:21):
He wasn't a guy that tre youknow, as far as in athletics or
anything like that He was.
He was by the time I got therehe was an old, retired, uh, soda
delivery guy, you know kind ofthing where, but he was good at
coaching.
So I mentioned this before Youcan have you can have a coach
that can make a gigantic impacton your life, huge impact on

(22:42):
your life, and was an absolutehorrible athlete, you know.
Just because that, howeverathletics was for them just
didn't translate as far as thecompetition piece, right, as far
as them being in it, but as faras them formulating a plan for
others to win it, it's a brainthing, right.
I mean, we're talking aboutmechanics of a, of a sport,

(23:03):
whether it's basketball, soccerand possibly even wrestling.
Wrestling's a little differentto me in my eyes just because of
it's a number one.
It's an individual sport andyou have to as a coach, you have
to change your channel everytime that next kid goes on,
because you have a set way thatyou've been training in the room
.
You have a set way that you arewhen it comes to having any

(23:26):
type of itinerary for the year,but each kid is different, so
each kid that goes out, you knowthem, you've been training with
them, you've been coaching themin the room and stuff like that
.
But you have to change thatover every time And I think that
got lost, probably somewherewhen we were kids in the 80s and
90s And even before that, whereit was just it was out to win.

(23:47):
Now, college coaches we all knowthey I mean they're expected to
win, they have to.
It's a, it is a business forthose guys, but they need to get
the athletes in that are muchmore adapted to probably having
to figure things out on theirown all the time, where it is,
where it's like coaches now thatwe're starting to finally get
that, we're getting in the statethat have the experience that,

(24:09):
like you're talking about, youcan hear them saying that.
You know I went through thisand that's why I can relate this
to these kids.
They've been through it.
It's hard for me to look at achemistry teacher who coaches
and then looks at me and says,how can?
you can't do this?
and I'm like why can't you?
you're a chemistry teacher, youknow.
You're just telling me to do it, whereas there's a lot more

(24:29):
respect, i think, now with theathletes that are coming back
and doing what they're doing andjust having the access to
someone like that, with thatmentality and that type of
perseverance that they've had togo through because of the sport
or injuries in the sport or anytype of I guess stressor or
just just unnormal situation.

(24:50):
It's great to have those guysaround and just listening to
some of these guys at the campsas well, because they know it's
not talking to John Smith, whoyou know, who teaches shop class
, and says that your son can'tdo a layup because he does this
wrong.
It's like I want to know whereyou're getting your tutelage
from.
And then he says, well, iplayed for blah, blah, blah.
Oh, okay, all right, all right,gotcha, but if you're telling

(25:10):
me you're just making woodenboxes down the hall and you're
telling me that my kid can'tmake a lab because you didn't
spin it right.
I want to know where you'regetting your information from,
you know, kind of thing.
So confidence goes a long way,not just with the parents but
with the kid too, because theparents are talking about that
coach.
It all goes down to parents,man.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
Actual, you know, actual instruction, actual
coaching is is a very hard andvery fine art right Most people.
You got to be able to draw theline between not like saying a
hard line, like you can only do,one of those saying you've got
to understand the differencebetween a coach right, a club

(25:52):
coach, a area junior high coach,a guy who is giving an
opportunity to kids And and acoach, an instructor, who is
there for higher, you know,higher tutelage, higher, higher
level stuff, because you couldbe, you could be the, you could

(26:12):
be Olympic medalist, you couldbe a world champion and be an
absolutely horrible instructor.
Correct, correct.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yep, and those, a lot of those guys can admit it too
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Right, there is a lot to it And as long as, as long
as you're able to do the work onthe side, like you're saying,
like, like, using basketball asa reference, which is weird,
this is a wrestling product.
That's what I'm talking about,because we're putting it down.
I think it's because we justdon't.
We never and we never want toinsult wrestling in any way.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
Right, never No.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Well.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
I'm probably going to get lambasted for saying, like
a teacher being a coach is a badidea kind of thing.
But it's like unless thatteacher has the experience, why
are they coaching?

Speaker 2 (26:51):
No, no, you're absolutely not wrong.
People don't want to admit thata teacher being a coach is a
great thing.
If that's all you're lookingfor is for someone to introduce
the kids to the sport and givethem an opportunity, correct,
absolutely.
Yep, absolutely, it's a great.
You know, we've got, we've gotcoaches around here in the
school systems that I look atAnd I understand their
experience level, theireducation.

(27:13):
The money you put into them isdifferent than the money put
into me.
But I look at this and I sayyou're a phenomenal person in
the school for the code for thekids.
You show them the right way toact, the right things to do.
You care about them, you takecare of them.
Yep, you are.
You are not.
You are not the wrestlinginstructor.

(27:33):
You are not the guy who shouldbe leading with an iron fist.
You are not the guy who they'regoing to look at and say, oh,
my God, i want to be just likeyou.
They're going to look at youand say, thank you so much for
caring about me, thank you somuch for helping me through
That's.
There's plenty of them andthat's and you need them.
But you also need the guy whocan actually instruct the sport,

(27:57):
who can actually instructathletics and fitness and
different things, correct,correct And even if they haven't
done it right, going back evenif they haven't done it, at a
high level if they have thedesire.
So I do these team camps and Iactually got to send out some
information today to some teamsand I send a packet of
information, yep, and I'm goingto be a coach Guess what coach?

(28:18):
You have to do some fuckingwork too.
Yeah.
If you're telling me that you'rethe coach, you're in charge of
these men.
You're in charge of men orwomen.
You're in charge of theirdevelopment as an athlete, as a
competitor, as a person.
You're going to have some workto do too, and it's simple work.
It's coordinating them, gettingtogether, learning movements,

(28:38):
learning things because theyshow up and they have
expectations Correct, correct,yep, exactly.
Things I expect them to be ableto do, yep, so it's their job to
do it.
So, if that coach if that youknow middle school basketball
coach played basketball but didmore so as a social aspect is
going to coach and he goes, man,i'm committed to making these

(28:59):
kids good basketball players AndI want to be there not just for
the kids that just want to playbasketball, but for the kids
that want to really learn.
Yeah, and he spends the timewatching film, he spends the
time reading Mm.
Hmm, then he can be a goodinstructor at it.
Yeah, and I was like Iabsolutely stand right next to
that guy.
I was like, oh, i played in theNBA.
Yeah, well, i'm better atteaching basketball than you
because I'd put the time intolearn Right And I'm just a

(29:22):
better instructor, right.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Right, yep, so I agree with that.
I agree with that.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
I hate.
I hate wrestling camps.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
Really No, no.
Now tell me why you hatewrestling camps.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
I think I know why I hate technique sessions and
large wrestling camps becausethere's a waste of fucking time.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
And and I could get as much technique for my, my
students, I could get as much, Icould get more out of that time
than they got in that you know,our Yep mass technique session
with, with, you know, 500 kidsin there, Yep, And then they,
they can hardly hear.

(30:04):
You know, we just Oh, mom anddad just paid $150 because so
and so is doing a techniquesession with 150 kids, 200 kids
in there and just himinstructing Yep, And they're all
playing.
Grab asked, all ages, highschool and down, Yep, They're
all playing.
Grab asked, they're all doingthis and that.
And then he says you know, theyclap hands and they're supposed

(30:25):
to go do it.
They do it for 30 seconds andthen they're just fucking around
.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
So prime example of that.
So we just and we talk about alot you and I have talked about
this before, but we talk aboutand then we're going to get into
your high school stuff afterthis, because we got to stop
talking about coaching.
We got to, we got to talk aboutsome of the stuff.
We'll talk about coaching aminute.
But to expound on what you justsaid, there is a large issue, i

(30:49):
think, not only with just camps, but I really wish in it, and
it's hard to sustain a club andsay I'm going to be able to
sustain a club and I'm sayingthat's a lot of stuff by having
this many kids.
Obviously, if you have a club,you have to pay bills, so you
got to be able to have peoplecome in.
So what I'm going to say isprobably going to be a little
contradictory.
But, with that being said,there are camps.
Yes, correct, i think camps area good fundraiser For a club to

(31:12):
get outside people to come in,excuse me, and raise a little
money.
You have someone very cool,very nice, come in.
Great experience meeting thatperson.
Do I think that they'renecessarily walking away with
the most technique in their lifethat they've ever learned?
No, i don't.
I think camps are great forlittle kids, just because the
focus doesn't have to be on thatnext step up of getting better.

(31:36):
They're going to learnsomething new out of that either
way.
Once you get past like fourth,fifth grade, those camps are
useless.
They're there for and I did it,i helped set up camps like this
.
I mean, i'm no stranger to thisThey are to generate revenue.
I mean, it really is to justget a little extra money into
that club's pocket.
Now, is that athlete going tobring good information?

(31:57):
Of course you're going to bringgood information.
That's the reason why youtechnically brought them in.
So they're going to bring goodinformation.
Most of it's redundant in thethings that you're already
learning in the room and there'sjust a tiny little tweak or
something different that they doto it And that's it.
And the odds of that kid usingthat piece of technique is

(32:18):
pretty slim, pretty small thatthat's ever going to get pulled
off, unless that kid just islike oh yeah, i'm going to this
tournament, i'll be able to trythat this weekend, you know,
maybe they do it And then that'sit.
So they gained a lifeexperience and a great
experience of meeting thatperson that maybe they saw a
wrestle somewhere and they'vebeen waiting to meet them.
That's a great way to do that.
Are you necessarily gettingevery single thing out of it?

(32:38):
No, like Liam just went to thisFargo camp right Down at
Parkside.
He loved the campus.
He was really in love with thefood that was in the cafeteria
that they had.
That, was said, was probablythe best cafeteria food he's
ever had in his life.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
I love, I love Chow Hall food.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
But we're still stuck in this era, in this little
thing of where this is whathappens at camps Everybody finds
their buddy, right?
Yeah, everybody finds theirbuddy.
And then there's that group ofbuddies that get together that
never separate.
They never separate at allwhile they're outside of the
camp and they never separate atall while they're inside of the

(33:17):
camp.
And guess what?
They do the same shit insidethe wrestling room at practice.
So now, what are you reallygetting out of that, since
you've been practicing with thesame guys for about six months,
seven months?
A lot of times a lot of thiscamp stuff gets lost in the, i
think, in the rush of hey, wegot this coming up, we got to do

(33:38):
this and things like that.
Now, great camp cliniciansthere, awesome, great camp
clinicians.
But to me it was better forthem to be clinicians, because
my kid got in front of them,because they're college coaches,
that's it.
The technique he said was good.
He said they taught a couple ofdifferent things that were just
kind of unique, but otherwise alot of it's the same And a lot

(33:59):
of what these guys do needs tobe repetition anyways, but it's
a fargo one, so it's kind oflike the first one that he's
done.
It was whatever it cost.
But there was to me.
There's nothing productive thatgets done at those anyways,
because it's always everybodywith their buddy And it's
everybody with their group ofbuddies and nothing gets
accomplished.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah.
So two things, two things, yeah.
And like, we just came backfrom the ISI camp with the BAM
guys And I understand and Istill do it, even though I say I
hate camps I understand thereason for doing it And people
are going to listen to this thatdon't know me and be like this

(34:40):
guy's just he's fake, there's noway he's like this.
But you know me and anybodywho's mentioning like no, this
is the way I operate.
It's quite interesting.
Being my children and my family, i acknowledge these things And
I said, yeah, the social aspectof it was great.
They had a good time.
They ran around with theirbuddies, they wrestled a bunch

(35:02):
of duels, which were good, got alot of confidence because they
had a successful weekend.
But as far as their physicalgrowth and their growth within
the sport was not aided to thelevel that it could have been in
the time that we spent doing it, yeah, for sure, and that's why

(35:25):
I say like, i acknowledge thatwhen we still do them.
But I'm going to look at it andsay, yep, we did not get as
good as we could have, but Ithink that's a good thing.
I'm not a backside camp, thoughI think, looking at it.
I would think that one would begood, because I know and I'm a
little biased to the area, butyou know Nick runs, runs a great
program.
Nick does really good about itAnd getting after it, and I know

(35:50):
there's plenty of otherinstructors floating around that
room.
But, like you said, if Liamjust grabbed his usual buddy and
wrestled with them, well,that's a lost opportunity.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
That makes it less advantageous than it could have
been And that's kind of wherewe're different And that's how
we're built, because we've seenthis before.
And so I've stressed to Liamstop finding guys.
You always wrestle.
Stop.
And you know Liam's a grinder,liam's always.
It doesn't matter if he's in,you know, if it's practice.
And a lot of times when they doShit sparring, when they do

(36:27):
sparring in the wrestling room,he's still kind of going hard
But he's learning.
You know certain guys haveinjuries, things like that.
He's learning those ropes Buthe has that in sight and
everybody, anytime that he triesto go and pick new guys, it's
no, i got this guy over here Andthen he watches them wrestle
and they wrestle half-assed.
It happens all the time Andthat's so.
That's the kind of theprogression of what happens,

(36:49):
especially with a lot of these.
You know rooms and camps And thecamps.
Just you just don't growbecause you're trying to branch
out and get a different feel.
He wrestled a bunch of thecoaches and stuff.
But it's not just Liam, it'sother kids too And they're going
to grow and they can't growbecause everybody's got their
little buddy pad that's overhere.
We're going to hang out andtalk about your girlfriends and
shit.
So the camps are great AndNick's camp, as far as, like I

(37:12):
said, the clinicians out therewere awesome.
I mean, there had to have beensomething learned, because Doug
Schwab was in there sweating,you know, like he always is.
So you learn something out ofthat.
But it's like trying to tryingto bounce ideas off of guys.
You can't do it because theyall stick within each other and
they all and that's kind of the.
It's a disease.
I call it a disease.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
It is, it is, and it's a social thing too, because
they're still young and haven'thaven't overcome that yet.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, Maturity and stuff like that.
But the camp, the camp itself,like because it was a Fargo one,
i obviously we don't send themto a ton because we do one on
ones.
You know we and that's kind ofwhere I was kind of driving
towards it more is like, youknow, the camps are great, maybe
if it's a clinician theyhaven't seen.
But, man, you should be findingthe guy that's in the area,
that's one of the better guys,and just doing one on ones with
them.

(38:00):
You know, because that's whereyou're going to learn the most.
You get the individualized, youknow, kind of meetup.
Okay, enough about coaching.
We asked we had talked aboutyour high school stuff, man.
So we.
So when you got into you weredoing all right, you know middle
school and stuff like that.
But going into high school,what was your freshman year?
like that transition?
Was that kind of a holy shitmoment for you, or what was that

(38:20):
like?

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Going into high school was was neat.
My brother graduated that yearthat I went to high school, so I
didn't get to, i didn't get towrestle with him, but like all
the buddies and all the peoplethat I've been growing up with
were you know, not all of them,obviously, but a good push up.
We're still on the team, right.
So it was neat And I came in asa freshman and again, we had

(38:44):
enough people.
We had a freshman, we had afull freshman team with guys
that didn't get to wrestlebecause we had too many people.
We had a full JV team, we had afull varsity lineup.
So it was.
It was a very productive space.
Like I said though quick sidenote going back to it we didn't
have a a.
We had one, natural likewrestler, who wanted to do

(39:07):
complete things for the program,but we'll get into that.
So I'm a freshman and you knowI'm looking up and down the
lineup and there's a spot at 130that I could fill.
I could fill a varsity role.
I'm weighing 140 at this point.
Okay, and me being a young kidand again, no real instruction

(39:27):
on any of this, i'm like, yeah,i can do.
I can do 130.
I can do it And I wrestle.
So the season starts and Iwrestle like one or two on the
freshman level.
Yeah.
And it's, it's just murder,because, you know, basic.
I don't know if they were kidswho never wrestled before or

(39:48):
what, but it was.
It was, you know, okay.
And after that I was like, yeah, i gotta, i gotta move up.
You know the one, the one coachis like Hey, we're going to
pull you up to JV.
And I was like, hey, i'm goingto, you know, wrestle off her
varsity.
Yeah, like, like, where waslike 130.
Okay, and because I couldn't, icouldn't do 35.

(40:09):
I couldn't do 40.
I couldn't beat the kids thatwere there or 45.
But it was 130.
I was like I can fit in there,i can do that.
And I wrestled off And this was, this was right before the
DeVarack, the DeVarack.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
DeVarack yep.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yep, devarack, yeah, and McHenry was still in that
tournament at this point because, like I said, in the 90s and
early 2000s we had really goodteams And I'm like, hey, i can
do it, and I got the 130 spotAnd I'm still waiting about 140.
I show up Saturday morning tohead to the tournament and I'm

(40:45):
weighing 138.
Yes.
I ran and ran and ran and ranand ran and ran and ran, ran,
ran, ran.
And we are.
the wrestling room is in thebasement, right by the boilers,
yeah, and there was a bighallway down there and it was
hot as fuck and I layered up andrunning and running and running
and I make it.
I drop eight pounds and Holyshit.

(41:08):
Yeah, and I was absolutelymiserable.
I went to and out.
I did.
My second match was actually amatch at least.
Yeah, i went to and out and wasabsolutely miserable.
Then I had to sit there youknow old school, high school
tournaments.
I had to sit there until youknow nine, 10 o'clock at night.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
You get to watch your stuff.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
You get to watch your meals do shit while you're
sitting in the bleachers.
Man.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Yeah, and, and then, and then I was like, ok, well,
now that I've hovered around 135and I would bounce between JV
and varsity, but they would giveme time, they did do good after
that.
They would give me time to say,OK, we're going to put you on
varsity for the lineup this week.
You know, drop the weight.
Ok, cool, now I understood, andI bounce between those two and

(41:59):
Then come the come the end ofthe year.
I just did the fresh softconference or the JV conference.
Well, i can't remember what itwas at this point, but you know,
just because I was still I wasstill a freshman and won that, i
was like, yeah, there goes.
You know, that was awesome.
And we had a, we had a verycompetitive football program at

(42:20):
that time as well.
So same deal Never won a statechampionship but was always in
the semis or right before it.
I mean, i mean all that like 92through 2000 and or something
That was.
I was long gone by then, butmaybe it was like eight or four.
Ok, like no, he's in, he's inRichmond right now.

(42:41):
I mean we were conferencechampions.
You know undefeated seasonsdeep into playoffs.
But it's hard to win theplayoffs when eventually you're
running to all those.
You know Chicago teams and youknow yeah.
So, like my, my brother playedagainst Donovan McNabb, i played
against other guys in the NFL.
These, these small carmels ofthe world.

(43:02):
When it comes to, when it comesto football, it just doesn't.
Eventually it runs out.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
So so we had this super competitive football team.
And again, this is this isstill me, right, And this I'm
telling this because I knewnothing about athletics, right,
I knew nothing except for what Iobserved with my brother and
what I kind of absorbed aroundthe way.
So I go to this start of myfreshman year, I go into this

(43:29):
football camp and they'reputting us in positions and
doing things like Hey, OK, goback and, and you know, be the
safety.
And I thought I'm like OK, Iknow that I go there because I'm
replacing that guy who's there.
Yeah, I go out there and andand they say like down set, And
I get in a three point stance.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, yeah, because that's what I thought you were
supposed to do.
What I remember from TV, man.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, i get a third point and they just start,
everybody just starts fuckinglaughing at me and the coaches
just going at me And I'm like Idon't know, i know nothing.
Yeah, show these these otherYeah, these other kids played
the club football and all that.
And I'm like, show me, man, idon't know what the hell I'm
doing.
Show me the money.

(44:12):
I'm just a machine, i'm just anonstop engine here.
Get me, get me pointed in theright direction.
Yeah, something, yeah.
So that was my freshman year Anda lot of lessons learned and it
was good One of my sophomoreyear.
And again going back to thefootball, so we had the program

(44:33):
was was college level, wasprofessional level?
We were.
If you were, as soon aswrestling was over, i was in the
gym, right, yeah, and you had,you had charismatic coaches, who
who cared and who would set theright mentality and tone and
expectation that even thoughthere were optional, you knew

(44:53):
they weren't optional, yeah,right, if you weren't there, you
weren't there.
They found you and we're likelike, that day they found you,
they call it a home, like, hey,where are you at?
Yeah, oh, i had to do this, butokay, we'll just let us know
And we'll be okay.
And you're like shit, they'rewatching.
So.

(45:13):
So I mean working out hard,knowing what I know now and
looking back at it, we didthings wrong, but so did
everybody.
then, you know, all we did waswas, you know, a bunch of
shoulder rotating forward liftsthat, you know, really fuck
person up, but you know it was.
So it was all the way throughthe summer.

(45:34):
There was no offseason wrestling, right, so my wrestling program
wasn't as good as my footballprograms.
Soon, as wrestling was done,there may be being one or two
open mats and that was it.
Really.
There was no club.
There was no club in McKennaAnd anybody who was, who knew
more could, would go out toCrystal Lake, or maybe they went
to Fox Lake.
So place at Fox Lake andJohnford had clubs at that time,

(45:56):
yep, but they were.
They were very school based,right, they were area based.
Yeah, it wasn't like peoplewent out there, um so.
So I didn't wrestle.
I didn't wrestle at all.
I just I didn't wrestle.
Besides, what me and a group ofother people would do
periodically out in the dirtRight, sure.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
Like, hey, before before football practice, we're
going to get together andwrestle for a little bit.
Okay, Cool.
Okay, we talked to the coach.
We talked to coach Hey, can weget the mats down?
Uh, no, you can't.
But okay, well, we're justgoing to go outside Nice And we
and we'd roll around, uh, andthen, but the you know, the
football program was it.
I was training hard, and then itwould always get to that point

(46:37):
where, cause I loved, i did, ilove wrestling was my sports.
So I still loved it because,like, we alluded to that feeling
that I got while doing it,sensation but to drive.
So we'd get to near that end ofthe football season and we're
going deep in the playoffs andI'm looking at wrestling started
and I'm always going, fuck, howdo I get out of this?
Like, how do I get to wrestling?
Yeah, and cause I wanted to doit so much, i wanted to do it so

(47:01):
much, but I didn't have, youknow, a missed.
Like I said, i was a missedopportunity.
Sure, yup, had there beensomething in the area or
somebody that would have scoopedme up and been like, we're
going to make sure you get hereand do all this, yup, it would
have, it would have thrived.
Uh, that doesn't necessarilyquick to winning.
You can't say, oh my God, i'dhave been missing that.

(47:22):
No, i would have, i would have,i would have been successful,
uh, right.
So we'd always get to thatpoint and unfortunately, i would
never.
You know my sophomore year Iwas like, okay, well, i'm going
to go wrestle.
Now We're, we're done.
And uh, soft, and again,football was huge.
We had a freshman team.
Okay, you had a soft.
You had a sophomore team.
Yup, you had a JV and you had a, uh, a varsity.

(47:44):
Wow, um, that's a lot.
So so we're like, hey, we'redone, like it's time to go, like
, no, we're going to pull you upfor the varsity playoffs.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Oh, so bitch Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
And I can't say no, cause these guys.
These guys were good coaches,they were on top of it, Right.
Yeah, they made you feel.
They made you feel like youwere really letting them down if
you weren't there.
Yeah, I could have.
I could have absolutely beenlike Hey, i, i'm a sophomore,
the rest of my things, yeah.
I don't want to, i don't wantto come up and and they'd been
like, yeah, okay, It's like thatprogram was built that way,

(48:18):
though, like those guys were thecoaches of the upper echelon
type dudes.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
You know, while you're down here in freshman,
like man, we could really needyou up here.
And you're like I don't know.
I got like fourth of Julybreakfast coming up and they're
like yeah, oh man, i don't knowwhat we're going to do without
you.
And you're like I gotta go.
Okay, all right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
It's a design.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
It's a design.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yep, yeah, and they were smart about it.
Yeah, and they did it.
Since, since we're talkingabout there was one time, there
was one time, there was only onetime I missed and I just I
didn't go, i went home and no,no, no, no, i had detention, i
had detention.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Oh, no one tell coach about that.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Fuck.
Well, we skipped over my someof my middle school.
I wasn't even going to middleschool Like I got expelled and
different things.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
We can bring that up later, that's fine.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah, so uh, uh, i had detention and I was like, oh
, and I just, and I wasn't there, yeah, and I and I just I'm
going to be like nothing.
And I saw the coach.
I was like, oh yeah, sorry, iwent home.
He was like, okay, And half theday goes by and I go to his
office and I shit you not AndI'm not, i'm, i ain't worried

(49:33):
about being manly or anything,okay, Yeah, yeah.
My body, my body counts higherthan others.
So, uh, so I I walk in thereand I started balling.
I started crying Yeah, cause Ilied, cause I lied to him.
Yup, that was the presence thatthey have, mm.
Hmm.
And I started crying and I toldhim I was like I had detention.

(49:53):
I'm sorry, i lied to him andthe guy's name is George Kater.
Yeah, yeah, he actually workswith veterans now and like
Geneva and great dude Okay.
He came.
He came to the gym once Uh,there's the man you know, he
does, he does all his own things.
But he came into senior onesand I jumped on him like a
little monkey, Uh and uh, and hejust looks at me and he's like,

(50:16):
he's like, it's okay, thank you.
Yeah, thank you for telling thetruth.
Yup, and that was it.
That was it.
And and he knew at that pointthat that the lesson was learned
There's no more.
There's no more than using thegun.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yup, yup, uh, so.
so there's this greatphilosophy, great culture, and
then going to wrestling seasonmyself for a year and I'm, i'm
behind the curve, right, i've,they're a month into it and I'm
just getting there.
Yeah, um, they're competingalready and everything, but I'm,
i filled the varsity line up,uh, finding success, doing well,

(50:51):
uh, i think I took, i tookthird in conference that year
because, uh, we got in theconference tournament So we
wrestled Grace Lake and at thatpoint they had a kid who was you
know, he was a senior myselffor a year.
He placed all four, all fouryears.
Yeah, uh, um, we wrestled himin the conference and I'm

(51:13):
beating him.
I'm, i'm winning right BecauseI am, cause he didn't train like
I did.
Okay, my motor was going, i didnot stop, um, and I'm going, and
I'm going, i'm going, and I'm Idon't remember the exact score,
but I'm beating him and it goesback to the amount of time

(51:34):
spent on skill, yeah, and theamount of time actually spent on
the mat.
Right, and he fucking splitlesme.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
Not again, again.
Shit Wasn't the same kid.
Though This wasn't the same kid.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
Wasn't, wasn't the same kid?
Okay, wasn't the same kid?
And uh, i, you know, i'vealways shot an outside single.
I always, i always like a niceshort step, drop outside single
head tight on the inside drivinghim cause I'm strong, i'm
physical, yeah And uh, and hejust, you know, locks in and

(52:12):
scoops and drops down and I getsplatled and, uh, i, i get
pinned.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yup.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
Fuck it, i'm livid.
I'm livid Right, have a.
Have a good sophomore season.
I won a lot more than I lost.
Uh, i think I placed an averageAnd every tournament that I
wrestled in did well.
And then we get in theconference and I get them in the
semis And I was like it ain'tfucking happening yet.
And, uh, i had at this pointright, i'm at this point, i'm

(52:40):
wrestling varsity and I get alittle bit more instruction Our
head coach, uh, wrestled throughhigh school in, uh, in
Bloomington.
He didn't wrestle in college,but he was.
He was, uh, i think I know hewon at least one state
championship, maybe more is avery good coach, sure, yeah, um,
but he was.
He was still engaged at thatpoint, so he was more helpful,

(53:04):
uh, and I don't blame him forwhat we'll talk about later, but
uh, he was still helpful, um.
And then, uh, our assistantcoach, uh, brian Wilson Mr
Wilson was his name Uh, theWilson brothers, the ones that
lived by me and his children.
He had wrestled in our uh Uh,the beach bombs.
Yeah, now I'll grind.

(53:24):
So his boys, he had wrestle forthe wizards and all that.
He had never wrestled, right,okay, But he acknowledged what
wrestling could do for a kid andwhat wrestling could do for his
children.
Yeah, so he educated himselfand he was a good instructor, so
he provided a lot more of the.
Hey, you know he's going to dothis, try to do this, try to do

(53:44):
that Yeah.
Right And uh, i totally changedup my game and was more reserved
When I wrestled him again and,uh, i still lost, but I didn't
get painted.
It was all three periods and Ihad him on the back leg.
You know, i had him, you know,creaning to beat me, as opposed
to just, you know, knowing thefirst time, i guarantee in his

(54:06):
mind he felt 100% confidentbecause he's like, yeah, this
kid's, this kid's an animal,he's beating the shit out of me,
but I'm just going to catch himhere and I'll be fine.
The second time I could telllike it was like Oh shit, i'm
actually loose.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
And uh, he bit, he bit me, but I you know me being
a hard, hard individual, ididn't say anything about it.
It's like you fucking pussy,you fight me the hell you can do
Like, right, that's not okay.
Uh and uh and I lost.
And then I took third uhregionals.
We're in the same uh regionals.

(54:41):
I lost to him again.
No, no, i didn't What I do inregional mess, i don't know what
I did.
I know you didn't, but I know Imade it to sectionals and uh,
our sectionals was into Calright, our sectionals was.
You made it out of oursectionals, your place in state.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Every year.
Every year it was like that Uh,obviously there's weight
classes where that doesn't apply, but yeah, for the most part,
And uh, that was that was it.
Right, I lost in sectionals andsophomore year was successful
and I wanted to wrestle more.
Like I want to wrestle, I wantto learn this.
But, like we talked about, Irolled right into football as

(55:16):
soon as the wrestling is donethey're knocking on the door
like, hey, you know we're, we're.
You're going to be starting nextyear on the varsity.
You're going to be in there.
We need you.
We need you to get in here.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
It's like pack of wolves man.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
I don't you know, but it was phenomenal.
It's great.
And I wish, i wish, now thatI'm doing you know the wrestling
and and I'm I'm engulfed myselfmore in that world.
I'm like man I want, i wantevery.
I look at every wrestlingprogram Like they need to figure
out how to be like that.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Right, How to how to, but wrestling is a different
sport too.
It's hard to do that.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
I think they could do the wrestling stuff in the off
season.
You know what I'm saying, likeleading up to their, their,
their, leading up to theirtraining, i guess for lack of a
better term where in not compete.
You know, like, if I were, if Iwere a football coach like with
your club, i'd be a footballcoach I'd be hooking up with
someone like you a month or twobefore our practices start,

(56:12):
before our lifting starts,things like that, just because,
like you said, it's just a, it'sa different beast.
I mean, you watch kids come infrom from football season into
the wrestling room after they'redone with football.
They're dying.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Oh yeah, they're dead .
They they're.
the conditioning is nowherenear the same.
football Just stop and go game.
It is Wrestling is it is.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
but I always thought like because growing up as a kid
because I played soccer, butgrowing up as a kid you see
these guys all lifting weightsand getting all bulked up and
acting all you know, mr Universe, coming out of their kind of
thing, you think that they'rejust killing themselves, right,
just the way that they werebuilt and the way that they came
out.
and then that you know theyplayed football and you're like,
wow, those guys really spent alot of time in there.

(56:53):
But then now, as an adult andseeing them, i'm like I didn't
realize the difference, like Ididn't.
I had, i didn't know anythingabout cross-train, nothing about
training.
I was a soccer dude.
I cared about my legs and Icared about my lungs.
I didn't care about this onnone of that.
So I still had, i still had todo some working out, but I
didn't have to do what they weredoing.

(57:13):
I was like man.
but then I kind of see what thewrestlers are doing And now I'm
like why is there thedifference?
Like why, why didn't footballgrab onto that type of training?
You know?

Speaker 2 (57:25):
the hardest thing for me to do in the gym right now
is to train wrestlers for speed,for agility, for for strength,
because it's such a differentanimal.
right, i have to explain tothem all the time that this you
should not leave here feelinglike you do after a hard

(57:45):
wrestling practice.
There's days, there's workouts.
we do that I designed and setforth, that you're going to and
you should, but we're doing truespeed, true agility, true
mobility, true strength training.
You're not going to, you're notgoing to have the same feeling.
I want you rested, I want yourecovered before your next set.
So it's so hard with wrestlersbecause I'll design a workout

(58:10):
that should take, you know, 45to 50 minutes And if I don't
keep, if I don't keep my thumbon them, they'll be done with it
within, you know, 30 minutes,35 minutes.
So, guys, you need a littlemore recovery there.
Well, why?
Because if you want to makelarger gains, if you want to
have a bigger, larger gains, ifyou want to improve at a good,
steady rate as opposed to slowly, then you need to let your

(58:34):
muscle recover, you need to letyour body recover and then go
from there.
And speed is really hardbecause speed is a neurological
connection between your brainand the muscle and how fast that
signal can be sent.
And and if you're not recovered, if you're not recovered, then
you're not working.
Speed, yeah for sure.
So when we do, when we do a 40yard dash with a five minute

(58:58):
interval between, them right Oneminute into it they're just
like I'm ready to go again, likeI know, but just fucking wait,
man.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
So yeah so.
So the coaches were hunting youdown again, kind of like, hey,
we need you next time.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
So I'm hunting you down, hunting you down, getting
you right back in the weightroom and, like I said, they
weren't doing the best things inthe world.
So I started to.
Actually, i started to behindered as a wrestler due to
mobility.
Sure Right, i could not squatwith my with a bar on my
shoulders unless my arms werecompletely out parallel to my

(59:38):
body.
They were straight.
Really, i couldn't.
I couldn't.
I didn't have the flexibilityto do that until I was almost 30
years old when I said, okay, Ineed to fix this.
Okay, so we'll.
We'll get more into why I evengot worse, but it was, uh, you.
One day, the coach did look atme and this is, this is coach

(59:59):
Noel.
This is the only failure I puton him, right?
One day he looked at me and hesaid you know, you'd be a better
wrestler if you worked on yourflexibility.
And that was it.
That.
That was it.
At least he did something.
Yeah, at least he did something.
But that was it.
There's no, hey, here's go.
You know, go read this.
Do this movement, do that?

(01:00:20):
I'd have done it.
I'd have been like, no, i canlook at them and say, well, he
did say something.
I should have done it?
Yeah, but had he given?
me a band and been like do this.
I was like, okay, i'm going togo buy a band and I'm going to
do this every day, yeah, right,cause that was that was my
mentality.
Uh, i needed, i was, i was veryself-sufficient, right, i would
get up and train, i would getup and go do the things, okay,

(01:00:41):
but I also needed to be led,because I wouldn't you know, i
wouldn't get out of my what Iknew or what I knew I could do.
So I did find and then I didfind this was somewhere around
this time, right Cause I wantedto be a better wrestler and I
didn't, i couldn't go and dothese things.
Yeah, uh, i found that theencyclopedia of wrestling

(01:01:02):
conditioning Okay, right, okay,it was.
It was written in the seventies.
Okay, dan Gable, by chance He'sin it.
It wasn't by Dan Gable.
Uh, i could go grab see thename.
I can't believe.
I can't remember the name rightnow, but regardless.
Uh, showed up pipping um littleChabala dog thinking he's, he's

(01:01:25):
tough.
Yeah, i'll do you.
Uh, so, very super informativebook, great book, and it was all
geared towards wrestling And Iwas like, yes, this is what I
was looking for, yeah, um, i waslike I'm going to do this, yeah
, um, and lots of, lots ofsimilar emotions and movements
that we still use today.
Uh, what I didn't know at thetime is that it was a lot of it

(01:01:50):
was things derived from Russia,because eventually I fell onto
Pavel uh, testa Valley whateveryou say his name Uh, he's the
guy that brought kettlebells.
He was, you know, his claim ishe brought kettlebells to
America and whatnot.
And all this, uh, a lot of themovements and things were were
just kettlebell movements, yeah,and so I fell in love with that

(01:02:12):
.
So I'm doing my, i'm doing myfootball lift in and then I'm
doing my secondary stuff that Iread from the insect's B a
wrestling condition.
Yeah, just just just puttingundue amounts of of rolling
forward stress on my shouldersand doing nothing to come to
combat it.
Sure, and uh, go throughanother season, and this is when

(01:02:34):
things get kind of hairy.
Every, every school, every,there's always shitheads, right,
yeah, there's always meet heads, shithead kids.
And we had a very competitiveteam, a very uh, blue collar,
hardworking team that had a lotof kids that liked to do a lot

(01:02:57):
of extracurricular activities onthe outside.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
Sure Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
And and to the effect of my sophomore year, i forgot
this, my sophomore year.
I'm up playing in the playoffsand I get a chance to be running
back.
Uh, and these guys who areeating pot brownies and
everything before games even, uh, we're losing Right.

(01:03:21):
And and our running back?
you know, i'm rotating in atnose.
I'm rotating in at running backMainly just to block or go hit
somebody and the kid gets baggedup or something like Hey,
you're, you're going in.
I'm thinking, okay, i'm goingto go in and block, they're
going to do something else.
No, he's, he's like, no, you're.
You know, they call play and I'mrunning the ball, yeah, like 13
, 14.
It's like 13, 14.

(01:03:42):
And I fucking get the firstdown and I'm all excited, yeah.
And I get back to the huddleand they're, they yell at me
because I'm excited.
They're like settle the fuckdown with the foggy.
There are shit.
And these are, these are, theseare underclassmen.
Uh, a year, not underclassmen.
They're a year older than me,they're not the seniors.
And this is that group, thesame group that I had wrestling

(01:04:04):
and they did the same shit.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
Really.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
And they had.
They had, uh, um, you know,they'd have get-togethers and
parties before duels and things,and and other sophomores would
be there as well, and then we'dgo out and we'd smoke this other
team and it's like guys whatthe fuck.

(01:04:28):
So we go, sophomore year goes by, we go into my junior year and
I, you know, I'm going tofootball.
coaches are still, you know,great and they keep me involved.
Yeah, I love wrestling.
All I want to do is wrestle,but I'm like I don't want to
wrestle with these guys.
Yep, I want to do so muchbetter.
I want to do so much more andthey're just a cancer.

(01:04:50):
But of course, cause I love thesport and I was going to do it,
i, i, i wrestled junior year.
Same thing at this point, oh,and at this point we're kicked
out of the Dvorak because ofthat group going in and
destroying their gymnastics room, right, oh my God.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Am I surprised?
No, I'm not totally surprised.
I'm not surprised.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Yeah, so so here's my , here's my McHenry you know
team that's been in Dvorak, beena competitive group and we get
kicked out of it.
So, yeah, good job guys.
Yeah, high five.
And and I don't I'm notnecessarily trying to talk ill
about all these guys They'veactually all gone on and done

(01:05:30):
great things.
I mean at the time it's kind ofdescribing Yeah, So going to my
junior year and starting lateagain cause of football and
junior year was a lot likesophomore year.
Uh, I was conference championthat year, So it was like a step
up, right.
Yeah, Once that, once that.
once that grains like kid wasgone.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Progress.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
Played over me, regional champion as well, and
then going to sectional, like Isaid, super competitive
sectional, and I think I, ithink I lost the third place
hatch.
Uh, yeah, i know, i know I lost, i can't remember where.
uh, but again, a successfulyear, right.
So for my skillset, my ability,with no real off season work,

(01:06:16):
no only thing I did in the offseason was train my body.
Sure, i didn't do any wrestlingbesides sporadic here or there
when we could.
So whenever it would get tothat sectional timeframe, it was
, i would lose to the kids thatwere wrestling your rap There.
There were less of them then.
Right, there are less of themthen in the in the late nineties

(01:06:37):
and early 2000 that there arenow, but they're still out there
.
So, junior junior wasn't juniorwas pretty straightforward,
besides the little drama of of,you know, being frustrated with
my team and all that.
Yeah, but now those guys aregone, right, they're seniors.
Now these guys are going like,yeah, this is it Senior year.
Yeah, going to be the year.

Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
And I actually, you know, season ends go right into
football and you know, having alot of fun, getting really
strong, really big.
And I actually went to myparents and said, hey, and I had
a friend who, who he actuallyinitiated it.
He's like, hey, i'm going tothis camp in Madison and I'm

(01:07:20):
going to this camp in Iowa, andI was like I want to go, you can
go to wrestling camps, yeah,you can.
So so I go to my parents and Ishould have done this earlier.
They probably would have saidyes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
I go to my parents like, hey, here's this
information on this camp.
And, again, this isn't comingfrom the coaches, right, this
isn't coming from.
This is this is us having tofind it and do it Correct?
Because we had great, we hadgreat school coaches.
They were there for they, theymade sure you know we were being
raised right and you know we'regood, productive people, but

(01:07:52):
they weren't improving us asathletes.
Sure, Yep, and, and this allcame from him.
And I go to my parents like,hey, i want to, i want to go to
these camps.
So, like, sure, not a problem,nice, i was kind of like, what
the fuck man, why was I doingthis before?
Yeah, and.

(01:08:13):
And then, and I go to myfootball coaches and say, hey,
i'm going to miss these events,going to be at this camp.
They're like, okay, what thefuck?

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Why wasn't I doing this, yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Yeah, it was like that for us too.
Is it like that That soccercoach I had?
he was a great coach.
I mean there was nothing wrongwith Gunther Engelman I'm sure
he's passing on right now, buthe was a great coach.
I mean he told he taught usmorally what it was to be an
athlete and a teammate.
You know he still taught ussomething.
I mean he may not have had allthe world-class skills and

(01:08:45):
drills and stuff like that, but,like you're saying to their
credit, they taught you how tobe good human beings and how to
be a decent teammate.
You know they knew what it waslike to be a decent teammate.
So yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Yeah, so I go to these camps and it was awesome.
All right, i loved every minuteI stayed.
It was two camps, it was like atakedown camp and then top
bottom camp, with the day inbetween.
I stayed.
The day in between Barry Davisand all the rest of us took us
to a water park up in Madison.
The day between Nice.
It was awesome, i loved it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
I love Davis days.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Yeah, and then then I went to the Iowa camp and you
know it was, it was even betterbecause now when the Wisconsin
camp, we were kind of led rightin the morning, the, the.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
I did the same camp there and yep Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
And get you out of the room and stuff, and the Iowa
camp they would.
They just kind of let you beright.
I think it's the same Iowa campthat's going on.
I'm still the day.
I'm not not a hundred percentsure, because I don't remember
too much, but I remember justthinking it was awesome because
they just kind of let you be Itwas a small group.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
I remember a small group of kids.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
It was, it was, i can't remember.
I know it wasn't huge, right,right, maybe a hundred, maybe a,
maybe a hundred kids, maybe ahundred and fifty, something
like that, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
Yep Right on.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
And and I still remember the one day right I
didn't get up My two buddies whowere there with me didn't
bother coming and knocking ondoor and waking me up because I
had a room to myself.
I somehow had a room to myself,so I didn't get up.
And I wake up and I'm like, ohmy God, i'm dead.

(01:10:28):
I'm dead, like these guys aregoing to, are going to kill me,
yep.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
No, it's your loss.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
I grab my shit, I grab my shit and I'm running and
I come in and I slide right inand nobody says anything.
Nope, And just just like yousaid, right And to me, I'm going
.
Oh my God, I guess they didn'tnotice.
But no, it was like yeah.
I'm sure they noticed.
It's just your loss, man.
It's your loss.
You weren't here.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think that's important.
I think especially because,like you said, you were pretty
self-sufficient as far as right,how you kept yourself and like
your schedule, whatever it was.
You were like, you weremind-framed enough where you
could say I'm going to do thisand you do it, just forgot to
wake up one time.
That's all I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
Yeah, it was, it was, it was a fluke.
It was definitely a fluke forme, like and uh, and I remember
that camp was my first timeright.
So here I am, 17 years old.
Yeah, my first time ever doingGreco, Oh shit, yeah, now we're
going to get deeper, yeah.
Because they're going allthrough it and I'm like I don't

(01:11:30):
even what the hell is this?
What is this shit?
And I and I didn't.
I didn't have a partner.
I was lucky to where the othertwo guys I went with.
They were the same size.
They were partnering together.
I was lucky that I had to gofind a partner Like we were
talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
I had to find someone .

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):
Yeah, and I find I find this dude who was uh, who's
?
uh, he's going to be a seniortoo, he's already talking with
schools and stuff and he doesGreco And he's he suplexed me
like five times and I had nofucking They show you and they
tell you like, okay, partner,make sure you do this, and that

(01:12:05):
They were good about it.
So I was doing, i was safe, andI was like this is fucking
crazy man.
Yeah, and you knew what it wasLike.
Obviously you knew.
You knew, you know watchingwrestling and stuff.
You understood what a suplexwas.
But to actually do it, i waslike whoa, this is, this is
awesome.
I couldn't suplex him.
I didn't have the mobility, ididn't have the flexibility.
So like I'd try and I'd gethalfway and just fall over And

(01:12:28):
like, well, i guess that's asuplex, but it's not the same as
what you're doing.
Yeah, all right, and it was.
It was just, it was an awesomeexperience and I and I loved it.
And going back to like wetalked about camps, that's part
of the reason why I like takingmy boys and doing them to get
that.
They get that experience, evenif it's, even if instructional,
wise, it's not that good.

(01:12:51):
And going to my senior year.
Football season goes well, it'snormal thing, but we actually
got knocked out earlier thatyear, so I didn't.
I didn't miss any, any football.
We were so undefeated, still inthe playoffs, but we lost
sooner than we expected.
I'm missing your wrestling.
No, i didn't miss any.
That was like my senior year Itwas.
It was like, yeah, i'm herebefore the season starts and

(01:13:13):
everything And I lost.
I lost three matches, three orfour, i'm pretty sure it's only
three.
Three matches my senior year.
So two of them.
two of them happened insectional stuff.
So, yeah, yeah, being an oldman, you don't care, you see the

(01:13:34):
big picture, but also, being anold man, you can look back and
go man, that sucked Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
I want that one back.

Speaker 2 (01:13:38):
Yeah, when you're, when you're, when you're younger
and you're still doing thingsin life, yeah, you're looking at
like, yeah, whatever was highschool wrestling Yeah.
But now you're older, like,yeah, that that sucked.

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
I always think it's interesting when people say,
when they look back at things,that they don't have any regrets
, like you don't have to look atevery.
like if something just didn'twork out the way you wanted to,
it doesn't have to be a regret.
You know, just be like I wishyou could have that one back,
you know, like kind of thingYeah, yeah, it's not.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
Yeah, it's not a regret, it's just yeah that'd
have been nice, right, and bothboth those kids placed, and then
below me, the weight below mewhich I wrestled, 160.
So I started the season at 171.
Nice, i was, i was, i was 171,but I mean, i was, i was working

(01:14:25):
to be 171 for football.
Yeah, because, remember, i'm,i'm all of five, seven, i've
always been, always been big.
There was, there was a point inmy life where I was 215 pounds
on purpose, but I, i, i had towork, right, i had to work to be
big.
I was always eating constantly.
So when the rest of the seasonstarted, i was like, yeah, i'm

(01:14:46):
going to drop down, i'll justwant to do it right away.
Yeah, so I started 170, 171 andI did, that's no.
So I lost four because I lost.
We did a duel against a LakeZurich made a kid who was
returning state champion orwhatnot.
I lost to him by a point or twoat one 70 at 171.
And I was like, okay, i want tostart making my way down and I

(01:15:10):
hit 160.
And again, not going back,going back to, i didn't have
coaches who were putting theathlete in the best position.
Okay, they were just concernedabout us be growing right, sure,
i was.
I was 171 with work.
I made 160 within like two daysof just not constantly pounding

(01:15:31):
protein shakes.
Yeah, and I should have.
I should have went down to 152,right Cause I didn't.
I didn't have to cut, i didn'thave to do anything to do 160.
But I had a buddy.
I had a buddy at 152 and theteam was better with me at 160.
So it's like, yeah, i'll go 160.
It's not a big deal, i don'tcare.
Better coaching.

(01:15:53):
They at some point should havelooked at me like, hey, it's
time for you to go down to 152.
You're all of 155 pounds, youcan be down to 152.
And the guy at 152, he wrestledthe state champion in conference

(01:16:14):
.
There's guy at Woodstock, johnMurphy.
He's actually running a gym inHuckley, illinois.
Good dude, he lost to John byyou know just points.
Yeah, actually, i think he beathim in conference.
Yes, he beat him in conference.
lost to him in regional.
Lost to him in regionals.

(01:16:37):
They get sectional.
That's him and him.
Him and John The guy's name isGavin, my teammate, gavin
Muskowski.
They're in the finals.
He loses from the finals andsectionals.
Gavin goes to state.
Gavin didn't wrestle well atthe state, he didn't place and
John won it, right, yeah.

(01:16:57):
And here I am.
Here I am beating the hell outof Gavin daily in practice, yeah
, right, yeah.
And it's like, hmm, you know,and, and still, i should have
been fine at 160, you know it's,it doesn't you have to wrestle,
you have to wrestle every match.
Right, you have to wrestleevery match.
It doesn't matter who you are,what you do, you have to wrestle

(01:17:19):
every match.
And so so that was my senioryear.
It was, it was great.
I did.
You know, like I said, i lostfour matches Nice, one to a, to
a state champion, the other one,i think, was a state champion.
My big crowning moment thatyear was I won.
I won the DeKalb tournament,which was always a very

(01:17:40):
competitive tournament.
After we lost the Dvorak, theDeKalb was like our, hey, this
is our.
You know, let's see how good youare at turning.
And I won that and was proud ofthat.
And one regionals andconference and all that And it
was, it was a great.
It was a great year.
You know, even at the time whenI was, when I lost it, i was

(01:18:03):
more upset that wrestling wasdone.
Yeah, that then the loss, right, i wasn't about, you know, it
wasn't about the accolades, itwas about the growth.

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
Yeah, right, right, and that's kind of I think
that's the biggest point to take.
I think a lot of the kids younotice, with the interviews too,
that and they don't knowcompletely at that point I mean,
I was super adults, but justlistening to some of the
interviews from kids that eitherwon stay or wherever it was
that they actually do take thataway That you know it is
exciting in their brain They'reprobably like I want state man.

(01:18:36):
Yeah, you know that kind ofthing.
But at the same point, though,to some a sum and most are
humble enough because they'vebeen doing it long enough that
you can kind of hear that intheir voice when they, when they
talk about it like man, it wasjust I went through a lot.
You know it was always.
You always got to hear thatthat that comment of I went
through a lot this year.
And I think a lot of guys aretrying to just I think they're

(01:18:57):
just trying to find who they are.
You know, like, because you'recoming to the realization that,
like you said, don't worry, thesport was done for you.
You know you're done wrestlingin high school, but you're done
with high school, like you'removing on to a bigger situation.
You know like kind of, andmaybe it hits them at that point
or whatever it is, but it's alot to take in as a as just a

(01:19:18):
kid.
You know a lot of these kidsare faced with a four year
decision.
You know that they'd never made.
But speaking of that, so highschools wrapping up for you.
Where's your head at then, asfar as getting the hell out of
school and doing something?

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
So this is where things get interesting.
This next structureconversation is where where you
get the CJF today.
So, again, no real guidance.
My parents were great, but theywere.
They were, hey, what are yougoing to do?
Yeah, right, my brother, mybrother finished high school.

(01:19:57):
He moved out like that summer.
He, him, and a group of guysbought a house and he had a, he
had a job and that's what he wasdoing.
That's that's.
We're blue collar, that's wherewe came from, like they knew I
was.
I was a little different, i wasthe, the different child of the
family.
My brother was doing extraillegal, extra curricular

(01:20:18):
activities and whatnot allthrough school, but getting good
grades and whatnot.
And they knew it.
I was the one that was like,yeah, i'm never going to, i'm
never going to do any of thesebad things, i'm never going to
do any of this.
And then we get to that thatgap and they're like what are
you going to do?
I was like, well, i guess we goto the colleges, because I

(01:20:40):
don't know any better This.
So this is I didn't think aboutthis until I listened to a
podcast.
I think it was a Wisconsinwrestler and the guy who's up in
Ames right now, what's his name?

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
Hapke.

Speaker 2 (01:20:56):
Yeah, so he was at.
he was down in Illinois at thatpoint.
What was the college?
What was the school?
He was down in Illinois and hewas running.
It was a, it was a D three, buthe was running the program down
there and they were doing verywell.
And we had some other names inthe area, like Clay Guida, right

(01:21:19):
, so I was the same time for him.
As him, clay Guida went thereas well as a few other guys and
he calls me and I don't knowanything.
I've never had any guidance.
He calls me and he's like Hey,you know I'm down here, i wanted
to talk to you, see if you'd beinterested in coming, and I'm
like I don't know what I'm doing.

(01:21:40):
I remember the conversation.
Yeah, I remember theconversation.
I'm like I don't know what I'mdoing.
I think I'm going to go visitthis college and go there,
because that's what other peopleare doing, And him you know him

(01:22:00):
.
He's got tons of other peopleto call, He's got things to do.
He's like okay, well, youchange your mind.
Call me.
Okay, Right, And that was it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
That was a recruited call He was he was working Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:09):
But I didn't know that, correct, i had no clue,
yeah, and and so I go to.
Like Western, i go to placeswhere other people are, satan
are going.
Yeah, i'm like I'm going to govisit these places and I'm
visiting them And I can, i canremember walking up to this
coach here I am five, seven, youknow, 160 pounds at this point.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:29):
Walking up to this football coach.
So how's your football program?
Oh Jesus, he's probably lookingat me like dude.
you're a fucking paper.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
Like I thought you were going to say wrestling
coach.
You said football coach waslike damn okay.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
All right, i didn't, i didn't know, like I didn't
know anything.
I went to colleges that didn'thave wrestling program.
Yep, i didn't know, yep, right,and uh, and ultimately I'm like
, okay, well, i'm going to go toMcKenry Community College for a
year because that's what.
That's what you know all otherpeople are doing, and it makes
sense, and I couldn't decideanything And I got to figure out

(01:23:03):
how I'm going to pay for this.
And.
I go to McKenry CommunityCollege and I immediately I'm
right back in the wrestling room, right back in the junior high,
right back in the high school,because I never wanted to leave
it.
I always wanted to train And uh, i take this year.
And also during this year Istarted getting into
powerlifting.
I had a buddy who I had, abuddy who I worked out with, and

(01:23:23):
there was a trainer there.
He was a big powerlifter And,uh, i take this year and I'm
going, I'm going to and againnow we're talking more things
rolling my shoulders forward Itake this year and I'm, i'm
working and I'm powerliftinghard, like you know, four hours

(01:23:44):
a day in the gym, four or fivehours a day Learning about it,
cause when I get into something,i get into it.
So I'm buying books and I'mreading and uh, and I end up
powerlifting.
Uh, a little like boxing, wherethere's a bunch of different
entities that do it and dodifferent state competitions and
national competitions.

Speaker 1 (01:24:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
And uh, so I went.
I went in like two differentIllinois state powerlifting
competitions.
I went to Wisconsin competition.
I go up to Minnesota and wentto.
I went to Minnesota competitionAnd I'm like this is awesome, i
like powerlifting too.

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:17):
And uh, you know, at one point I was, you know I was
deadlifting 600 pound benching,you know, close to 500 squatting
the same, all of 150 pounds.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
That's why you were 215 at one point.

Speaker 2 (01:24:32):
Well, that was later, that was that was later, that
was that was let's see, let'ssee how massive I can get.
So so I'm, i'm loving this, butI'm still in the wrestling room
.
I'm still in there, i'mcoaching.
Right, i started coaching rightaway Cause I wanted to stay
involved and I really enjoyed it.
Um, and at that point I wouldsay I was.

(01:24:55):
Obviously I wasn't a good coach, because I'm just a kid still
just learning.
Yeah, i'm helpful, i'm helpful.
I know I understand the sport,cause I've been doing it now for
for seven years.
Uh, or, comparatively, kids whoget into high have been doing
it for seven years.
So so I'm loving it And I dothat one year school and I'm

(01:25:17):
like, okay, well, i'm going togo to Illinois state, cause
that's where people are goingAnd I'm going to wrestle there.
I'm going to wrestle there, idon't know.
I'm going to wrestle there.
I'm going to find a way to geton our specialty.
So I register and I go in andI'm still, my coaches are still
there.
I'm still telling my coachesthis I'm going to Illinois state
to wrestle, okay, okay, i getto Illinois state after a

(01:25:39):
register.
Illinois state doesn't have awrestling team.

Speaker 1 (01:25:43):
That's cool, right, well, right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:49):
I like, can somebody, can somebody say something?
Can somebody just say, Hey dude, uh, Illinois state doesn't
have a wrestling?

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
Oh okay, i won't go there.
I guess I'm not going there,right.

Speaker 2 (01:26:03):
So I go there.
I go there for a year and I'mwalking through the quad and and
there got all their boosts outfor activities and things And
the sky looks to me is like youlook, like you like to hit
people.
Have you ever thought aboutrugby?
I was like let's play rugby,it's a fun sport.
Oh, it's great, i loved it.
I loved it.
Um, so I played rugby and Imean that was even though it was

(01:26:24):
just a club.
Those guys practice.
We practice every day.
Yeah, every day.
We were together out thereplaying and and like soccer, you
know, it led itself to that.
You don't have to be maliciouswith it, you don't have to be
hitting, you can just go outthere and throw the ball and
kick the ball and play and play.
So we were out there every dayand I'm still in the gym
powerlifting every day because Ilove that too.

(01:26:45):
And, uh, school becomessecondary and rugby and
powerlifting becomes primary AndI'm spinning my wheels right,
i'm not going anywhere, i'm notdoing the thing.
This, this burning sensation towrestling, was still in my head
.
And uh, and I go, i start goingto normal high school and doing

(01:27:07):
some, just going in there andwrestling with them.
Right, okay, i want to wrestle,i was doing, i was going for
teaching uh, uh, uh, kinesiologyand physiology at that point
and teaching it, So.
So I was there to to teach agym class or whatever, And I was
like talking to the well, he'sthe wrestling coach.
Okay, Can I come in and wrestle?

(01:27:28):
Yeah, you can come in, Okay,cool.

Speaker 1 (01:27:30):
Yeah, hey, keep going , keep going.
I'll be right back Just asecond, keep going.

Speaker 2 (01:27:35):
Yeah, i'll keep going .
And uh, and we go, that yearfinishes up.
and I look at, okay, now what?
The same buddy who I went tothese camps with and everything.
and you've seen a common threatI needed guidance.
I didn't know what the hell Iwas doing.
I wanted to do something more.

(01:27:55):
I wanted to be so much moreinvolved in something that was
bigger than me.
Um, he's like, hey, i'm goingin the Air Force.
I was like, oh well, maybe I'llgo in the Air Force because
this college thing is workingout.
And I end up, i want to dosomething more And I'm like I'm
not going in, you know, theregular Air Force, but I want to
go do something cool.
I want to go do something about.

(01:28:16):
I want to go do something thatyou know, only select people do
that, that wrestling mentality,that wrestling mentality of, uh,
i want to be challenged.
But I was like I'll start withthe Air Force because, why not,
it's where you're going.
So I walk in the Air Forcerecruiter and I sit down and I
say, hey, i want to, uh, jointhe military, but I want to do

(01:28:37):
something more.
I want to do something, youknow, intense.
I'm only coming here firstbecause my buddies, you know,
joining the Air Force and Ithought it'd be cool if I could
go with it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
I was going to say I'm sure you'd heard about the
military before and you thoughtthe Air Force is going to be the
toughest.
So I'm just kind of wrapping myhead around that right now,
like, uh, like everybody in theplanet by your age would have
known what the military is andprobably heard about who right
All that stuff, and you're like,yeah, i'm going to go check on
some jets and see what that'sgoing on there.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
It's a common theme or city, right, i needed
specific guidance at that point.
Sure, i wouldn't, i wouldn'tmake decisions and act and I
would do the things I wanted todo, but as far as uh, as far as
actual productive direction,something to fill that little
gap since I wasn't wrestling, uh, i needed, i needed specific

(01:29:29):
guidance, okay, okay So.
So I went to the Air Force,simply because it was the first
available, it was the firstthing I thought of, because, you
know, my buddy was doing.

Speaker 1 (01:29:39):
Okay, yep, i'm seeing the theme, i'm seeing you're
kind of.
You see, guys, that you're, oh,he's doing us.
Okay, i get it Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
I'll go check it out.
Um, and I walked in there and Iwas like, hey, i, you know, i
want to do something more.
I want to do something that ischallenging, that most people
can't do.
Yeah, he's kind of and he'sjust a regular recruit.
He's like, well, you know, i'mlike and he's telling me some
things like no man like I wantto be a green beret or a seal,

(01:30:07):
does the Air Force?

Speaker 1 (01:30:08):
do anything like that .
Okay, okay, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
He's like.
He's like, Oh well, we have, uh, you know, para rescue, which
you have to.
You have to know things aboutthe military and what they are
to understand that.
Uh, you know, the Air Forcedoes have the exact not the
exact same jobs.
That would be a proper same butthe but a SOCOM skill set, Okay
.
So he's like, Oh, we have pararescue.

(01:30:32):
And I was like, Oh, he's like,yeah, it's, it's the same as
being a seal.
They go through combat diver,They do this and that.
And I was like, and they're,they're medics, right, They're,
they're medical guys.
They go to EMT school and getfurther on medical training.
And I was like, okay, yeah,that sounds really cool, I'll do
that.
And I start.
You know, he gives me the pasttest and what you have to be

(01:30:53):
able to do beforehand.
And I'm looking at it and maybeme.
I was like, okay, not a problem, I can pull ups, I can be push
ups, I can do sit ups, I can run, I need to work on swimming.
So I started swimming every dayYeah.
And we get to the point whereyou go into maps, right, the
impassant station where youreally officially sign up for a
job and do all that, okay.
And they have this giganticbook and they're like, here you

(01:31:16):
go, here's the book of jobdescriptions, Yeah, okay, and I,
and you know, under, underspecial tactics, there's combat
control and there's para rescue.
So I go to para rescue and Iread the job description And
it's yeah, you're gonna, youknow, jump out of planes and do
this and be a medic.
I was like cool.

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:35):
I switched combat control and it says, yeah,
you're going to jump out ofplanes, you're going to ride
dirt bikes, you're going to blowshit up, like wait a minute,
that's pretty cool, that soundsway better.
That sounds way better thanbeing a medic.
I don't want to.
I don't want to be a medic.
I'm a bullshit, i'm gonna blowshit up.

Speaker 1 (01:31:51):
Man, are you kidding me right now?
Yeah, sweet That sounds waybetter.
Oh yeah, it does, and soundslike a fourth of July to my ass.

Speaker 2 (01:31:59):
Yeah.
So I was there.
I was like, well, i'm gonna,i'm going to change.
Right, it's the same past tasks, same things.
It's like I'm going to changeit, i'm going to do this job And
, and I change, and I sign upand I go and I, you know,
continue training, continuedoing my swimming, continue
running and doing pushups andsit ups and all this I, i curb
the, i curb the powerlifting andI still coach through all this.

(01:32:23):
Right We had.
I did the, delayed it, i didthe delayed entry program so I
could go with my buddy.
Yeah, not a full year, but likesix months or something.
So we go to basic trainingtogether.
Yeah, and not knowing at thispoint that even though the
government says something, itdoesn't mean they're going to do
it.
What?

Speaker 1 (01:32:42):
Come on.

Speaker 2 (01:32:43):
Yeah, so I'm still coaching, i'm back in the school
and I'm coaching, i'm loving itand I'm training up and I'm
super excited.
Right, this is.
I could tell this was it, thiswas, this was going to fill that
gap.
I'm not wrestling somewhere.
I kind of I put myself in debtright away with college,

(01:33:03):
spinning my wheels, doingnothing.
I uh, looking back, i look atit as, yeah, i missed my, my
opportunity, like you said, therecruiting call to actually have
that guidance.
Sure, yep.
So, and my buddy ends up havingto leave earlier, like, hey,
you got to go.
You know you're times now go.

(01:33:25):
So he went only a few weeksbefore me, but I was like, Oh,
okay, that's fine And uh, but Ididn't realize at the time our
paths completely deviated fromthere You're going.
He was being a linguist.
I was going over here trying tobe this super cool guy.
And I go.
You know, i do my past test, ipass everything, everything's

(01:33:47):
good, and I get ready and like,all right, it's time to go sweet
.
And I'm probably in the bestshape of my life at this point,
cause while I was training hardwith the football and wrestling,
i wasn't doing the swimming, iwasn't doing the mass talent
aesthetics like I'd starteddoing this last year.
Yep.
Um, which you see in my trainingthat I knew that I do.
Nowadays there's there's a lotof that stuff mixed in

(01:34:09):
swimming's hard because ofsafety concerns and, and you
don't know, kids can do whatexactly.
Yeah, yep, um.
But so I go into basic trainingand it's the Air Force, basic
training and I'll insult the AirForce, i'm allowed to.
Uh, it was, it was a joke,right In comparison in

(01:34:31):
comparison to other uh forces.
You can look at it on paper andsay, oh well, the Air Force's
physical standards are actuallyhigher.
Uh, at that time they were likethe run, the push ups, the sit
ups, they were actually higher.
Okay, um, but the, the dailygrind and the things you do and
you don't do any sort ofinfantry work while you're in
basic training in the Air Force.

(01:34:52):
Sure, so we did that and I gotgrossly out of shape.
Uh, i, still, i, actually Ifailed.
I didn't fail, but I barelypassed one of my sit up tests.
Uh, while we were going, mainlybecause I didn't do unassisted

(01:35:12):
sit ups while I was training, ialways anchored my feet and did
that, yeah, and then, whilewhile we were in basic training,
the person that was didn'tkneel on my feet, they just held
the back of my ankles.
I'm like, okay, okay, and Iwasn't in, i wasn't in that good
shape.
Also, to go with that, withvery little guidance, and I read

(01:35:35):
the requirements and how to dothe exercise, like, okay, sit
ups, this is the two countexercise.
Yeah, what does that mean?
Does that mean up as one, downas two?
So I was counting like that.
Luckily, i'd always do extra,i'd always do more.
Yeah, so now you take away.
Now you take away, not puttingthe feet, not kneeling on my

(01:35:56):
toes right, anchored me down,and that I'm actually doing them
correctly.
And I was like, oh shit.
So I barely passed and I couldfeel myself, i could feel my
pull ups.
You didn't do pull ups in basictraining.
Okay, they're required for thepast tests, they were required
for the entry standards to getinto the career field, but not

(01:36:18):
part of basic training.
So I could feel myself losingthese things.
And I was that guy because I'mdriven Right.
So at night, at night, i'mdoing inverted rows, right, i'm
on the bottom bunk and I put myhands up on the top bunk and I'm
pulling, i'm doing invertedrows and I'm doing sit ups and

(01:36:40):
I'm like, oh shit, i gotta fixthis.
Pushups are so great.
Pushups are push ups.
Yeah, right, run was finebecause I was already running
farther and faster, so that gotslower, but it was never a
problem.
Yeah, and I'm doing this workand I'm working, i'm working and
I figured out.
I know everybody's different,but I have an ability to kind of

(01:37:04):
figure out the system And thishelped me later in actually
going through all my selectioncourses and everything.
So I would volunteer to takethe watch before the last watch.
So like, wake up at five,there's a four to five watch,
then there's a three to fourwatch.

(01:37:25):
I would take the three to fourand then that four to five.
Well, i would shower, yeah, iwould use the bathroom.
I would.
I would just have an hour allby yourself Yeah.
Right, and all these other, andit's because I was so accustomed
to getting up early and goingand training and all this, and

(01:37:45):
I'm like man, I'll just you guysare all worried about your
sleep, i'll just get up.
You know, i'll do the.
This guy gets me up at three.
I do the three to four, right,and then I got an hour to just
hang out and relax And uh and it.
That is generally that aspect,things like that are.
What makes basic training hardfor people generally is being

(01:38:07):
taken out of your home, beingset on timelines.
They're not used to havingresponsibilities and being for
me.
It was easy because I figuredthat out and just like yeah, i
still get an hour to be CJ,right, So whatever, man.

Speaker 1 (01:38:21):
It's fantastic Worked out.

Speaker 2 (01:38:23):
It did.
And then I uh, so I go throughbasic training and that's, you
know, basic, it's basic training.
That's basic training, yeah, andI ended up being uh, still
keeping the same principles thatI always did.
I ended up being a basictraining honor grad.
So you had to get it reached.
You know, 100% or successfully,you know the highest level you

(01:38:47):
can on the PT test.
So my setup, my setup, startedshitty, but since I did them at
night, you know, i blew it outof the water.
Yeah, i push ups and run werefine.
And then you had to get 100% onthis, uh, on the written test
as well.
So I did that.
Yeah, i ended up being an honorgrad.

(01:39:08):
It was you know which is which,at the time, you're like is
awesome.
And then later in your militarycareer, you're like, yeah, it's
pretty stupid.
And then you get out and youlook back Yeah, it was an
accomplishment, it was somethingthat you did.

Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
So you, you went, you went through.
I mean, obviously you had to gothrough basic training and all
that, but but how, being whatyou had done already, just
athletic, wise sports andtraining and things like that,
how, how difficult cause.
I mean, i've watched videos ofguys coming out of the gas
chambers and stuff like that.
A friend of mine came back fromMarine Corps and it's all it is

(01:39:41):
.
It's just them coming out ofthe building and obviously, gas
chambers aside, how, how, howphysically prepared were you
just to kind of like you saidyou were.
You know your setups for yourfeet, but was everything else
fairly easy for basic trainingfor you?

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):
Yeah, it was, it was in it And it can 100% be equate,
equated to the wrestling andthe football program, since I
had such a structure, since Ihad such a structured, uh,
successful football program, it,it made all the basic training
easy, okay.
Okay, the wrestling setup, thewrestling setup, the physical

(01:40:22):
ability to, to be able to doeverything, the structure and uh
and purpose behind the footballprogram.
Set up, the set up, my abilityto deal with, the structure and
purpose behind the motor.

Speaker 1 (01:40:36):
Okay, okay, so that makes sense.
So I mean, when you, when youstarted kind of going well, not
going through, but as you gotdeeper into the middle of the
time and I obviously you madesome trips overseas, there were
some wartime situations that rethat you were in.
When you, when you get overinto a situation like that, when
you were in you know that typeof a situation you were.

(01:40:58):
So it seemed like, as you wereyounger, getting into the
military, that you were soindividual minded, right At one
point, that because you knew howyou were and you you're like
I'm going to get through thisand I'm going to do this And you
were gold towards yourself.
Right, where did?
and don't get me wrong, i meanyou were in team sports, but no,

(01:41:18):
you're right, you're, you'reright, you're, you're right.

Speaker 2 (01:41:21):
But it's also contradictory due to later in
the story.
Because I won, i won, i was aone awarded, you know, basically
the in during training, duringthe animate the Jerome Bettis
Bennett award.
It's basically the teamworkaward, like who was who was the

(01:41:44):
most team oriented, productiveteam member on your team When
the final CCS, final class andtraining, the final stuff, when
you walk out of there and yougot your beret and you're a
combat controller, and all thisthe very prestigious award in
the career field.
Right, i was awarded that twice.
The first team I ended uphaving to do the class twice

(01:42:07):
because I got poison ivy orpoison oak so bad that they
almost cut my leg open.
First team that I was with waslike no, he, he, we're going to
give it to him.
And then shark was like youcan't, he's got to do the course
again.
Like no, we're fucking givingit to him.

Speaker 1 (01:42:20):
Yeah, And I know you can't.

Speaker 2 (01:42:23):
So, and then the second team that I was with, I
won that, I was awarded that,And then later I was awarded
basically the, the, the specialtactics airman of the year, the
entire special tactics squadroncommunity for for things like
that.
Right, So it is.
It is that team aspect, the,the raising each other up, the

(01:42:45):
building each other has alwaysbeen part of it.
But you're 100% right that it's, it's based on individual
effort.

Speaker 1 (01:42:54):
Correct.
So what drove you into thatteammate aspect?
Because obviously there were,there were some awards involved.
People recognize something.
But what drove you from the,from the, because that's where
my question was going.
What drove you from the?
I want to do this, and it noteven so much I want to do this
for me, but it was somethingthat you want to do, accomplish
something you want to do for youbecause it was for you.

(01:43:16):
I mean, that's what, that'swhat it was mine.
Where did that shift over intothat teammate frame of mind?
Like what happened?
What?
what, i guess, what drill orwhat was it that that got you
into that?
What's going on with them?
You getting asked questions?
Sorry, no, you're fine, i'mgoing to, i'm going to get
involved, that's all.

Speaker 2 (01:43:36):
So why?
why I've had a question Yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they
There's always.
Like I said, there's alwaysbeen that desire to be something
, part of something bigger thanme.
Okay, right, okay.
And since you know, I've alwayshad my body right, I've always

(01:44:00):
known my body and I've alwaystrained my body and I've always
trained my mind to try toimprove myself, but it was never
.
It was always to be part ofsomething bigger than me.
So when I got in the military,you know that's a big focal
point and a big aspect of it isyou are, you are part of

(01:44:20):
something.
Now There's something biggerthan you that needs you, so that
that really helped make thatswitch of.
Okay, i've got to make me thebest me I can be, but I've got
to do it for you.
I've got to do it for you.
Sure, okay, i'm making, i'mmaking me the best me, so that
you have the best chance so youcan improve, so we improve

(01:44:41):
together.

Speaker 1 (01:44:41):
Yeah, I mean, any of those choices that you were
making were like necessarilyselfish, but it was just, it was
.
It was more of a more of a goalgeared towards you kind of
thing.
And then to transition thatover to, you know, getting
awarded something as a teammatebecause everybody agreed that,
hey, this dude, this is the guythat needs it because he's done
this.
So that's kind of the curiosityI had as far as that question

(01:45:04):
goes, just because it seemed notthat you were out for yourself,
but you were gunning foryourself.
You know, chastity, cut it out.

Speaker 2 (01:45:13):
Been a dog.

Speaker 1 (01:45:16):
But I just think it's interesting how that can not
necessarily transition, but howthat can shine through more as
you get into differentsituations, like you were with
the military and and I guess thetraining aspect of it, putting
you in in front of situationslike that to shine through for
your teammates, you know, as faras trying to do.

Speaker 2 (01:45:38):
And the military does that.
And then, following a basic,you go over and you start
actually getting the careerfield.
And when I went, things change.
things change.
When I went through, it wasbasically a two week.
They called it an orientationcourse, where they where they
give you PTE evals and standardsand show you, teach you about
the career field and whatnot,and then it was a two year

(01:46:01):
pipeline where every class youcould be eliminated.
Right, there was no oneselection course, like you see,
with buds or what this and thatwas.
It was, hey, every, every class, every course you're going to,
we can eliminate you, and theydo.
They did even more like you'retalking about of you are a unit,

(01:46:22):
you are a team.
The way the training isdesigned is they lump you in a
group and the goal is to staytogether with your group.
They're all the courses thatthat doesn't happen And that's
it.
Sure, um, for you know.
So we can kind of visualizethis a little more.
The combat control career fieldis very small.
Right, you'll have thousands ofseals and, yes, thousands is

(01:46:45):
correct, there are thousands ofseals.
There are thousands of peoplewho go to buds, same as the
green berets that try to bethese things Right.
When I went, when I wentthrough, there was like 350
combat controllers, okay, okay.
So it was a very, very smallcareer field, very, very niche.
So we would.
We started, we were an oddityclass, right, we started with

(01:47:09):
like 30.
And then, after the orientationcourse, we were down to like 12
.
And the 12 of us stayedtogether up until the final CCF,
the final course, and then,even then, we only, even then we
only lost two.
Wow, right, yeah, we were, wewere not, we were not.
There's plenty of teams thatwent through, plenty of teams

(01:47:29):
that went through, where one guygraduated, yeah Right, horrible
for numbers but makes a veryhardened individual.

Speaker 1 (01:47:36):
That's crazy.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:41):
So it was very at that point.
The team aspect, the, the ideaof building more than yourself,
was life, that's all.
It was Right, right, if you, ifyou weren't doing those things,
then you weren't going to makeit.
Yeah.
And then you know, we could, imean we could talk for hours
over stories.

Speaker 1 (01:48:01):
Yeah, You got.
you got war stories up thewazoo And I thought it was just
kind of also fitting to have youon especially for 4th of July
with with everything coming up.

Speaker 2 (01:48:09):
Oh yeah.
So I mean, you're smart.

Speaker 1 (01:48:13):
Well, we'll definitely.
I mean, that's why I was kindof talking a little bit before
as far as like stories andthings like that, cause I can
only imagine, can only imaginewhat happens overseas and just
the just trips to just justgoing alone, not even being on a
mission, just the crazy, crazyshit you wind up seeing over
there.

Speaker 2 (01:48:32):
And the nice thing is .
The nice thing is there'sthere's two different stories.
Right, there's this.
There's the training sidestories, the evolving stories.
There's the side of how youknow the cool training that I've
done and the exposure I've hadto you know the same guys that
run the Olympic centers and allthis stuff that you know I've
got billions of dollars pumpedinto me for them from the

(01:48:54):
government, right, just inphysical, just in physical
training alone.
And then there's, and thenthere's the other stories.
Then there's, like you'resaying, the war stories, the,
the, the oh my God, thissituation stories.
There's two sets of stories andthey're, they're.
Classified and not classifiedright.
Well, they're equally asentertaining, Right, right Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:17):
So that, like that picture that I, that I put up of
you on the on the flyer the onethat was the one goofy one is
like I was a little.
I was a little worried how muchI was going to keep on there
because it looked like it lookedlike a Star Wars story.
It looked like you literallyjust came off of one of those
air gliders and you were readyto go drink in one of those bars
.
With the long nose, the aliensand shit like that.
Like I was like man.

(01:49:37):
What the hell did you guys gothrough?

Speaker 2 (01:49:41):
So that was a deployment, you know.
And so in these career fields,there's a little thing.
I've done plenty.
Yeah, there's plenty of peoplewho've done more.

Speaker 1 (01:49:53):
Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2 (01:49:55):
You always.
You always want to annotatethat Like I'm not the end all be
all.
Anybody who's who's lived thelife like I have will at some
point.
When they're doing thesetalking things, they're going to
say something to the effect ofI've done a lot.
There's people who've done more?
Yeah Right, cause it's.
It's respecting the situation,respecting the other people.
I'm not the end all be all, butthat deployment was we,

(01:50:17):
basically the group.
Before I got there, the groupwas was hit by an ID and awesome
guys, and they were.
They were a little shaken anddidn't want to do things a
standard way.
So we, so we adapted and westarted riding dirt bikes and
quads and everything.
Okay, like, we put a, we put agrenade launcher, we put a mini

(01:50:38):
gun on a six wheeler and we'redriving up and down the
mountains.
And I was one of the only onesthat was comfortable on a dirt
bike, even though I wasn't thatgood.
So I spent, you know, eightmonths of my life falling off a
dirt bike in the mountains of aF game stand Awesome, thank you.
And so in that picture, behindyou is my dirt bike and it's got

(01:50:58):
my, my M4 on on the little rackthat we designed and everything
.
And we had, we had theseWolfskin coats made or like
Wolfskin things.
And when we were getting themmade, i looked at the guy.
I looked at the ODA guy and Isaid, hey, i want, i want a cape
.
I don't want a cape, i want,you know, like the thing in

(01:51:18):
Conan that he wears, or a class.
I'm like I don't know what youcall it, i want that.
So, so he had the guy, he hadthe local dude make me that and
no sure Shit, that's what it wasThe big pelt you put over and
had a little class and and wegot it.
That was that was the day wegot them made.
And I'm like man, i got to geta picture with the set.

(01:51:39):
I'm like this is awesome.
So we found this.
It looked like a gigantic sword.
It was actually just a randomchunk of metal, but if you look
at the picture it looks like agigantic sword And I'm standing
there with it with with my dirtbike behind me and my, my Conan
cape and with my long hair andmy beard.
Yeah, like this is fuckingawesome.

Speaker 1 (01:51:58):
You guys are definitely looking at your recon
and something cause that.
Like I said, do you guys looklike you just walked off a Star
Wars planet with that on And Iwas like Holy shit, what is
going on over there?
But it was.
That is set you up for a lot,though.
I mean, as far as so we'll kindof get into the, the after
piece here now, as far as whereyou've come to and having kids

(01:52:21):
and kind of rekindling, causesome of the sports life again.
I mean, obviously I know allyour boys played football.
I think one's still in football, correct.

Speaker 2 (01:52:31):
They both are And that's their choice, right?
I don't, uh, because of who Iam and the way I'm geared, yeah,
and the thing I look at is isit making you a better athlete?
Sure, is it making a morefunctional person?
Football doesn't do that, butthey wanted to play football and
they enjoy it, so they playfootball.

Speaker 1 (01:52:47):
Yeah, yeah.
So with with what you're doing,coaching wise, cause you had
coached before.
So I mean this you coming, i amnot surprised that if you were
to come.
You know you came back from themilitary, you settled down.
I'm not surprised that youstarted coaching again.
But I think I'm.
I'm a little more now hearingyour story in the full kind of
aspect of where you came from.

(01:53:08):
I'm a little amazed not totally, but I'm a little amazed.
In the program that you've puttogether at first there training
facility.
Now there's a little bit tiedto the name of the club first
there training facility.
What does first there mean?

Speaker 2 (01:53:24):
So the little motto for comic control and pair
rescue is first there, so othersmay live, right.
So first there is the comiccontrol.
Is cause, sure, the job is yourfirst in, right and last out.
So you're there to.
You know, you go in with theinitial assault force and set up
the air field and blah, blah,blah.
That bring in the troops andlast out, because they're also

(01:53:47):
the last one that leaves.
You're on the last plane out ofthere And so others may live is
obviously per rescue becausethey're medics, right.
So they're the ones, they'rethe ones you know going with the
different teams are doing a CSRcombat, search and rescue and
plane goes down like black Hawkdown.
They're the ones that go in andtry to save the people.

(01:54:07):
So first there, yep tradefacility.
So that's where that comes from.

Speaker 1 (01:54:14):
So it made sense.
So it made sense for you to.
I think it made sense for youto come back and start coaching
again, but did it happen rightaway when you came back?

Speaker 2 (01:54:24):
So the coaching story is is very odd.
I was, i was instructing beforeI got out.
I was an instructor at, likethe, at our premier physical
fitness course, and I was.
I did a lot of a lot of goodthings, a lot of education
rubric and a lot of things.
I really doped myself into it.

(01:54:44):
Yeah, i got out and I was likeI was contracting still when I
got out and I'm still doing thisstuff, I'm like, yeah, i want
to really really get into allthis.
I moved to McHenry and MattDushemin, willie's dad.
Yeah, it's a man.
I grew up with him.
I grew up with him and he hetells me, yeah, my voice at

(01:55:08):
wrestling here at state line.
Okay, i was like, okay, well,you know, i'm going to get my
kid involved.
He's only, he's only four.
Yeah, i'm going to start.
I'm going to start bringing himaround.
I brought him around and thenone year goes by Kill you Cool.
Okay, i'm like okay, and and westart getting involved and they

(01:55:31):
the one year goes by and I'mjust bringing them sporadically,
just being part of it And theygot another coach, like Hey, our
coach is leaving, he'sgraduating and we need a coach.
And Matt's like we'll have CJdo it.
And they come to me like, hey,do you want to coach?
I was like I mean, sure, whynot?
It's been, i've, i've beenwrestling.

(01:55:52):
Right, when we do our militarystores we can talk all about
that.
I've been wrestling.
I've never stopped wrestling.
I'm a student of wrestling.
I've, i've stayed active in it,but I have no clue how youth
wrestling is done.
I didn't wrestle in the club asa kid.
Sure, yeah, i have no ideaabout any of it.
I was like, but yeah, i'll doit.
Yep, so I come in and I'm doingit and it's very successful,

(01:56:15):
very good, a little differentthan what people are used to,
because I'm very organized andand physically orientated, right
, sure, i've been doing it fortwo hours.
A technique and being havingprofessional instruction and
money put into me to make me abetter instructor.
Uh, i understood how to writelesson plans, i understood how

(01:56:35):
to do all these things.
So I'm doing all these.
Sure, yeah And uh, and you knowit's, it's, everything is.
Uh.
You know I'm going to tell youwhat I'm going to teach you.
I'm going to teach you And I'mgoing to tell you again what?
I just taught you right.
Everything is is following thatkind of rhetoric and going back
and forth.
And okay, well, we're going to,we're going to drill for for X

(01:56:56):
minutes and then I'm going tomake you do some, some, you know
, some sort of activity to getget the sillies out because
you're a kid, yeah Right, butit's not like let's play a game,
it's no, we're going to do,we're going to do, we're going
to line up on the couch You'veseen the routines right.
You're going to go back andforth and do these things And
then I'm going to teach youagain.

Speaker 1 (01:57:12):
We're not sugar off.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:57:14):
Yep, uh.
so that happens and it's like,okay, one year goes by and I'm
getting some drama from thedifferent people on the board
and all this and I'm seeing allthis shit.
I'm like this is, there's a lotof stupidity.

Speaker 1 (01:57:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:57:27):
Yep And uh, and then right, that's one season that
I'm the head coach and then outof, not out of nowhere, but
definitely quickly Stateline andclothes they disband no more.

Speaker 1 (01:57:44):
No shit, i was going to say as an odd name.
I don't think I'd heard of thatclub, but that's just a.

Speaker 2 (01:57:48):
I was just weird, they were they were around for,
they were around for, they werearound for, they were around for
most of the I don't know whenit started, but I know it was
probably 10, 12 years They werearound.
Okay, they were a big club.
At one point there was like 150kids and, oh shit, wow, um man,
and it just dwindled downbecause of improper leadership,

(01:58:10):
improper coordinating thingslike that, and uh to the effect,
like we used to host twotournaments and like, uh, the
president hires these people torun the tournament, they show up
three hours late, they don'thave all the stuff, they don't
know how they're going tobracket and how the mats are

(01:58:31):
going to be done, and all thisWhoa.
And they come and ask, theycome and ask me.
And I turned into a dick andlike me and the me and the
president had a had a littletalk about it one after I did
this, but I was like.
I was like this is your job,this is what you're supposed to
do.
Do it.
You know, i've got kids, i'vegot families here.
It's 11 o'clock at night andwe're still, we're only like

(01:58:54):
halfway done.
This is fucking stupid.
Wow, and and I, finally I cameup with a plan and it was like
do this now.
And that was it.
And uh, you know, they saw that.
They saw the other side of themwhich was like this is fucked
up.
Now I'm taking over Yep, yepAnd uh, and you know, to me it

(01:59:17):
was a big like uh, it was like.
It was like it was like youpaid these people to come do it.
Yeah Right, you paid thesepeople to come do it.
They need to be able to do it.
Yeah, i got no problem payingpeople.
I prefer to pay people to dothings like that.
I've got all these other thingsgoing on, right.
Exactly.
Um.
So there were so many thingsgoing on and then, and then they
just imploded.
And now I've got all thesepeople and these kids looking at

(01:59:40):
me like what are you going todo?
Yeah, we're not going to have awrestling club.
And I had a good relationshipwith the high school coach and
he wasn't.
He didn't like the way thingsare going with the state line
anyways.
And I looked at him and waslike Hey, i want to.
Are you okay if I start a club?
He's like yeah, he's like wait,wait, wait, who's what do you
mean?
I was like it's going to bejust me, i'm, i'm, everything.

(02:00:01):
He's like all right, do it.
So I was like all right,panther wrestling club started,
right, and I called it Pantherwrestling club, not junior
Panther, because I wanted, iwanted the high school, i wanted
everybody to be involved And Icalled the Panther wrestling
club.
And then the season and thiswas I forgot to add this, this
was a week before the seasonstarted that I implode, right.

Speaker 1 (02:00:23):
That sounds like you.
That sounds like you.

Speaker 2 (02:00:25):
I sent.
I sent out an email and I'mlike Hey, we're not starting
next week, We're going to starta week after.
there's giving you a week toget some things aligned, Right.
Right, and here you go And wehad probably 60 kids that last
year of state line I had.
I had, i think, 15 kids staringat me the first week.

(02:00:45):
Yep, three of three of themwere Dushemmins, one of them was
a Vromin, two of them were twoother ones Like it was.
It was a very small group, yeah, and and so we started it.
You know, and we we had thatfirst season and it was, it was
good.
It was a very small group andjust us.

(02:01:06):
Yep, that that was Willie'sfirst state championship, i
believe.

Speaker 1 (02:01:11):
Was it.
So when how far after did Italk to you?

Speaker 2 (02:01:17):
So by the time we got involved right.
So I ran the Panther wrestlingclub for a few years and then
COVID happened.
I'm going to pull something upwhile you're talking about that.

Speaker 1 (02:01:32):
No, keep going.
I'm going to pull something upon because I want to.
I want to take a look who Liamlost to.
that was part of the WilmotPanther club when his, his whole
, his whole mantra for thatentire Parkside tournament was
cow catcher, And I said, okay,so see how that shit works for
you.
I'm going to pull that bracketup, Keep going.

Speaker 2 (02:01:51):
Yeah, we.
I've always done the Parksidetournament.
I love that one.
It's a good tournament, greatway to start our.
It's a great way to start ourseason right.
So when you run a club, youdon't want it.
You don't want to start yourseason like, hey, drive two
hours, like no, drive 20 minutes.
There you go.
So so that COVID happened AndI'd always wanted to do the gym,
right, i never, i neverintended to just be a wrestling

(02:02:14):
coach, right, i never intendedto just work with wrestlers,
because I've got all thisknowledge and all this.
There's only one of me, there'sa million wrestling people
around And and the all thesedifferent places started, you
know, kind of getting an idea orstarting.
The COVID happened.
They all kind of disappearedAnd even we got kicked out of

(02:02:38):
the school and I was like, well,i'm not letting this happen.
Yeah.
Just like with, just like withwith state line dissolving.
I was like, well, people toldme that the judo place in town
is closing and he's got a mattedfloor and all this.
Yeah, i went and met with, imet, i met, what met with the
guy and this was a.
you know, i'm like Hey, um, andthis is like two months before
the season.

(02:02:58):
Yeah, i was like Hey, uh, idon't really have any way to,
you know, buy all this from you.
Uh, can we set up something andI'll pay the, i'll pay the
mortgage.
and this man, he was a greatdude and he's like, yep, go for
it.
Nice, set up.
you know, you make you do thisfirst year, figure out what we
can do, and then we'll set upand get everything going.
Uh, so I, you know, open thefacility had a lot, of, a lot of

(02:03:22):
help from a lot of good peoplegetting everything going.
And, uh, that's, it was after.
it was that first year that westarted interacting because,
obviously, with having to travelto go, all the events and all
that, i had to broad, broaden myhorizons to get people to fill
these teams and make it happen.
Um, and that's where we raninto each other and first start

(02:03:46):
communicating and Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:03:49):
So I remember and so, like you and I kind of went
through the, the rakes I thinkhe was in fifth grade.
On this one I had been tryingto put a dual team together and
I kind of had already and I waslooking for some kids I think it
was the shaman that brought youup and he was like, uh, he's
like, hey, you should get a holdof CJ, cj, roman.
I'm like who's that guy?
And then he goes uh, no, he's,he's a, he's a coach down by us,

(02:04:11):
down by Wilmot.
And that's when I startedremembering that tournament,
because that name brought upthat Wilmot name And I was like
I fucking know that damn townname from somewhere.
And then I started looking atstuff and I was like that was
that tournament that Liam lostthat kid, and I was like Liam's
whole, whole premise of a doingone move the whole time.

(02:04:33):
I was like backfire.
It was like, yeah, i said I'll,i'll reach out to him for sure.
And then I kind of went fromthere and it was really it was a
dual team thing.
But it turns out that you and Ikind of had the same kind of
mentality.
Blakely Bastion was in there.
There's Nolan Deshemen.
Nolan Deshemen, Good Lord.

Speaker 2 (02:04:51):
I gotta find I'm going to find out what.

Speaker 1 (02:04:53):
what weight breaker has got to find this?
because it was hilarious AndLiam thought it was like that he
found this move and he thoughtit was the be all end all for
this whole whole tournament.
He's like I can beat anybodywith this thing.
I was like, all right, cool,let's see how this rolls out.
Then roll out to all for him,as he took seven.

Speaker 2 (02:05:10):
Yeah, it was.
Uh.
Yeah, we, i mean we hit it offright away.
We, very neither of us, areafraid to discuss things, you
know, and I think that's reallywhat solidified off the bat is
we were able to you know wedidn't get insulted.
We didn't get insulted talkingabout things when we had varying
opinions and whatnot.

Speaker 1 (02:05:29):
Right, i don't, i don't.
And here's the thing too islike, and you know me, like just
kind of going through any kindof areas, boys, all right Here,
80 to 87 and what.
What age group?
Fifth to sixth grade.
Okay, brackets 80 to 87, fifthand sixth grade.
And I'm going to tell you,because I could never remember
the kid's name that he lost toever.
And you're like Hey, what kidwas that?

(02:05:50):
I'm sure I remember the kid,i'm sure you will.
I read the name of you like Ohyeah, and he's probably still
doing.
All right, 80 to 87.
There, it is Okay.
So we're going to get to thebottom of this.
So Connor, connor Crawford wasin Liam's bracket and Jason
Patterson, yeah, yeah, jasonPatterson beat Liam on three

(02:06:15):
takedowns.
Why?
Because Liam would go for a cowcatcher and he would simply do
a double leg on him and that wasabout it.
So that was a six to nothingmatch and Liam was so pissed up
Hey, kitty, what's up?
Meow, but uh, that's Kurt, kurtthe cat.
So he actually took firstbecause Liam wouldn't know.

(02:06:35):
Liam actually took.
Where is he?
Yeah, he took second.
Patterson beat him six, nothingin that match because Liam was
doing one move I stronglysuggested to not do that,
because I said everybody's goingto be watching you.
You know they're going to payattention in your bracket,
they're going to watch whatyou're doing.
And I think that was the second.
I think that was Liam's secondmatch.

(02:06:56):
Yes, because Liam had techfault.
Someone, malachi, keen, another, wilmot Panther, yep, yep, yep,
he tec-, he, tec-, he, tec him.
And then he went up againstJason and that cow catcher did
not work at all.
So you guys pay attention tosome shit.
When I when I heard about Wilmotthat's why I said I had asked
Matt I was like, wait a minute,you know, i was like I think

(02:07:18):
Liam lost a gift from Wilmot andI was like, all right, well,
let's talk to CJ and see what'sgoing on.
So you're, you're, you have aunique development style within
your facility.
It's not just what you're fine,it's it.
He's more bothering you than heis me, really.
But yeah, well, that being said, it's unique.
So, like you had mentionedbefore, you do I mean, you focus
on, you do technique, but youput the kids through the ringer

(02:07:42):
and it's not just based off ofbecause that you're military,
that it works, because, numberone, kids come with energy right
, so you're bringing that energydown a little bit to bring the
focus in more.
So when you have let's, let'stalk a little bit, because this
is something that you have goingon currently you're.
You called the indoctrinationcamps.

Speaker 2 (02:08:03):
Yeah, so.
so the people may not like thatword the indoctrination.

Speaker 1 (02:08:07):
They don't like that word because they're trying to
use it in schools, which is kindof weird.

Speaker 2 (02:08:12):
Well, i mean any.
Anytime you're you're gettinginto a certain lifestyle, you
have to be indoctrinated to it.

Speaker 1 (02:08:18):
You have to be, changed Right right.
But, it goes back to.

Speaker 2 (02:08:25):
It actually goes back to, you know, to SOCOM and the
military and whatnot.
So you're indoctrinated to a,to a lifestyle.
The PJs themselves, they'retheir first little course, they
do their selection course upfront.
It's called indoctrination, soit's it's a standard kind of

(02:08:46):
term thrown around the careerfields and whatnot, which is why
I called I calledindoctrination course, because I
use it as a, you know,indoctrinating you into a
wrestling lifestyle, do aphysical lifestyle into a you
know hard nosed, you know kindof plowed through anything

(02:09:09):
lifestyle.
So, yeah, it's, it's, it's amini, it's a mini selection
course.
Right, it's a mini SOCOMselection course.
If the idea of this is how thisis, you know, tailored down for,
for younger athletes and forcapabilities.
But this is, this is how youtrain in the things you do in
the lifestyle.
So you have your, you know,physical fitness.

(02:09:32):
Your workouts are always partof the life, right?
Yep, so you start off themorning with that And it's the
first thing you do, and to avery high level.
And then you have some sort ofskill set, right?
So in the lifestyle you'redoing some sort of skill set
training, whether it be shooting, whether it be working with
aircraft, whether it be somesort of, you know, job set

(02:09:52):
training that you're doing.
Differences, differences.
I do this for wrestlers, so wehave two hours of wrestling, yep
, yep, and then, and then youend with, with the workout, what
I call wrestling conditioning,because, again, it's geared
towards wrestling.
But the whole idea this andit's live matches and stuff the
whole idea of that is that in acombat lifestyle which wrestling

(02:10:13):
is a combat sport, it's acombat lifestyle you need
opportunities to push yourselfpast being comfortable.
You need opportunities to pushyourself to the point that you
are mentally or physicallyfallen apart and you need to
figure out how to, how tosurvive that, how to adapt to
that.

(02:10:34):
Yeah, right, you need to dothat in a controlled training
situation because you don't wantit to happen The first time it
happens.
Be the real thing, right?
Yeah?
So, military wise, militarywise.
It'd be the same out as goingout and doing full mission
profiles.
I'm going to go out and executea mission.
As you know, it's a trainingmission, nothing's real, but I'm

(02:10:56):
going to do it as if it wasreal.
Yep, i'm going to be exhausted,i'm going to be tired, i'm
going to be broken, i'm going tohave to make decisions.
I'm going to do this in asports style.
Well, i'm going to make youperform over and over again and
then I'm going to put you in alive match scenario against
somebody who's semi-fresh YeahRight, there's always.
People get.
My rotation generally alwayshas somebody that gets rest,

(02:11:18):
because then I want to throw youin against them when you're
tired, for sure, for sure.
And it's simply.
You look at it like, oh, youknow, wrestling, they do.
We don't do a lot of livewrestling, that's.
You need to spend more time onthe skill set.
Yeah, sure, if that's whatyou're doing, yeah, but you also
need to do the other aspect.
So that's what the camp is.

(02:11:39):
It's that.

Speaker 1 (02:11:41):
So Liam's been through it and Liam's done it
once and obviously he'll be backdown there before he dies again
, but dies again before he dies,Yeah that's hard?
Yeah, no, but either way, when.
So, watching some of the videosand knowing what the kids go
through, what are some of theoutcomes, or just some of the

(02:12:01):
results that you've seen fromkids?
that that not everybodysucceeds, not everybody walks
away from something thinkingthat, man, this has made my life
10 times better.
But with some of the kids thatyou've had come through now,
have you had repeaters?
Have you had kids come throughthere, like you know this, this
can't help me with this and helpme with this.

(02:12:22):
So what, what type of feedbackhave you gotten?
because it's not easy, it's not, it's not something that you
try to make it as gear.
It's geared towards, you know,obviously towards the kids as
possible, but it's meant to be acamp for a reason and doctor
nation camp for a reason.
So what were some of theresults that you've gotten back?

Speaker 2 (02:12:39):
So there's two, two things right.
The first thing is doing it allthe year.
This is like the fifth yearI've been doing it and it's it's
slowly changing right.
So when I first started doingit it was very, very young.
I bumped that age group up nowto where I believe I'm going to
be okay sitting.

(02:13:00):
I've ran plenty of kids out ofthe room, not on purpose, but
because.
But because I'm, i'm trainingpeople to a certain standard, in
a way that if they've beenaround, if they make it, if they
stick with it, they're good,they'll love it, they'll fall,

(02:13:20):
they love it.
And then there's a kid who, who, who will stick with it for a
little bit.
Quit later.
Right.
Or I've never had a kid whodidn't want to do it And his
parents, you know, kept bringingthem back.
I'd never had a kid that didn'teventually get through it and
be like no, that's not for me.
Every kid, it doesn't matterwhat skill set, how good they
are, how bad they are, it justtakes time to get them

(02:13:45):
accustomed to it And thenthey're they're obsessive that
they love it.
So that's why I'm kind ofgeared towards the older, like
let's, let's not lose as many upfront, let's let you mature
more, let you build more andthen bring you in.
Because I want this course, iwant my camp, my training, to
stick to a certain standard.

(02:14:05):
Yeah For sure.
And it's not fair.
It's not fair to expect someonewho hasn't developed naturally
yet to be able to try tomaintain Right, yeah,
no-transcript.
So the there's that, and thenthe, the.
The biggest takeaway I get fromit is just the ability to
persevere and the conditioningbehind it That, yeah, i got, you

(02:14:30):
know, i got beat, or thistournament didn't go the way I
thought it would, but I'm nottired, i want more, I'm ready to
do more Right, right.
And the best thing that Ipersonally take out of it is
when I see them doing thingswhen they could be resting right
.

(02:14:51):
So, like they developed alifestyle, they're indoctrinated
to the lifestyle.
Oh, I'm not going to just gooutside and, you know, stand
around talking with, with thepeople in neighborhood.
I'm going to go and we're goingto do a stupid little.
We're going to do some push-upsor do some sit-ups.
We're going to go set up alittle obstacle course.
We're going to do these sillythings because this stuff it's

(02:15:13):
fun.
Yup, this physical activityit's fun.
They think that that beingphysical and getting you know to
put on or again, getting thepump, is fun.
Yeah Right, that's, that's,that's, that's the number one
thing that I, when I see thatand I'm like, yes, it is, it is
working.

Speaker 1 (02:15:30):
Oh, yep.
Well, I think it.
Just with that, with thataspect being said, I mean, every
kid is going to walk into acamp thinking that they're about
to get their ass kicked andit's not going to be fun.
You know, like they know,they're walking into work and
that's no stranger.
You know they're no stranger.
I love it.
What's that?

Speaker 2 (02:15:48):
I love it when I take my.
I love it when I take my kidsor any of my kids that I've been
training for years because todifferent, to different places,
and uh and Nizar said this once,so they were up by Nizar and uh
and he was like, all right, andthey did their practice.
He's like Hey, i know we wentpretty hard today And my boy was
looking at me like that washard, what the fuck.

(02:16:10):
And obviously I know he coulddo harder and this and that Yeah
, yeah, it's this, it's thestandard in the room And I know
some people here this like is itbeaten on kids?
Like you have no fucking clue.
You don't understand theexperience and the knowledge and
the capabilities I have.
Right, i am drawing the mostout of them without destroying

(02:16:33):
them.
Correct, all the time,sometimes we do, sometimes, uh,
but, but I've built them, youknow, i've been building them to
this fashion that you knowthey're, they're unbreakable,
yeah, right, and it's to thepoint where I have to work.
The ones, this is, the onesthat have been around for years
I have to work to to get them tothat point, right, yep, so,

(02:16:54):
like just Friday, we ran, uh,just Friday we ran two miles
after an hour workout to thispeople's house.
We had a little enjoyable timedown on on the lakes down here,
mm, hmm, and it was just up anddown hills.
And the group that was therethat had been training me they
weren't necessarily thriving,but they were head up.
Yep, i'm going to keep going.

(02:17:15):
The group that was newer isjust dying.

Speaker 1 (02:17:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:17:19):
And then even more so like uh, you know my own son,
so we, so everyone's aware,because they don't know.
Uh.
I don't run without carryingthings.
Okay, right, so going throughtraining going through training.

Speaker 1 (02:17:32):
You always carry to rock.

Speaker 2 (02:17:33):
Right, you always carry to rock.
You always carried all thesethings and back on your back and
I like to play little games.
Yeah, i like to play theselittle games.
So I looked at at one of theguys, george, uh, george was his
name.
He's a Elkhorn football player.
He's a brother to a guy who I'mworking with now, who runs the
gym during the day and stuff.
Okay, uh, and Andrews his name.

(02:17:54):
Um, i look at him and I go, hey, do you like?
do you like music when you run?
He's like, yeah, i like music.
I'm like okay, which meant I'mgoing to bring the speaker with.
You're going to carry thespeaker while we run.
You like music, so I'll provideyou music.
So we're, we're running, we'rerunning two miles carrying the

(02:18:15):
speaker and it's got two handleson.
It's actually really, reallygood for Karen.
He's got two handles so you canget one person on each side.
And, uh, they're all dying andit's getting miserable and these
hills are are ridiculous.
And I was like, and I grabbedthe speaker, i'm like, here,
i'll help.
I grabbed the speaker and I'mteaching them, because this is
the things that we did in theservice right.

(02:18:36):
And I'm teaching them like, youget behind each other and when
the one, it doesn't matter howlong you can carry it, when you
get tired, you let the guybehind you know he carries it.
You just keep rotating back andforth.
Yeah, um, yep And uh, but Igrab hold of it and my son,
who's 13 now, colton grabs in.
He is just turned into amonster.
Yeah And uh, we're running.

(02:18:57):
And this it's not about my son,it's about he's been with me
since the beginning.
Like he's.
He's the, he's the example ofthe day of the kids.
We've been with me.
This is the difference.
Yeah, he's wearing me, he'swearing me the fuck out.
All right, i didn't tell himthis, but we're running up this
hill.
I'm carrying, i'm looking athim.
I'm like he's son of a bitch.
Like he's son of a bitch.
Now, you know, i had back.

(02:19:18):
I had back surgery less than ayear ago.
I'm still recovering from allmy, so I'll give him.
You know, i do get a little bitof credit.
But I'm looking at him and I'mjust like, and I look behind me
and I see the other ones whohave been around and they're,
they're right there and kill him.
The 11 year old, he's, he'sright there and he's short And
I'm like, yeah, the shit works,man, you just commit.

(02:19:40):
Commit to the lifestyle.
Do you need it from a sportsaspect?
from a wrestling aspect?
Do you need wrestling skills?
Absolutely, you need to gowrestle and do your skill days
and all that Right.
But this athlete that I havebuilt, give him anyone with the
same skill set and you're fucked.
You don't have, you don't havethat aspect of your training And

(02:20:04):
that's what the GM is, andthat's what I do is fill that
other side of it.
Um, whether it be a naturalsports performance aspect, you
know, strength, strengthtraining, vertical lead, blah,
blah, blah, speed, agility,that's all part of it And it is
what I have seen.
And what the gym does is, andwhat it's always intended to do,
is that is a sorely neglectedaspect of training.

Speaker 1 (02:20:29):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 2 (02:20:31):
And what people don't understand.
The only ones you see doing itare the naturally capable ones,
right?
So you see these, you see theseathletes who are naturally, oh,
i'm the better athlete, i,whether it be football,
volleyball, whatever, like, i'mjust a better volleyball player,
and I've been.
Now my parents had me going tothese volleyball classes and I'm

(02:20:51):
better at volleyball skills.
That they are Right, yep, cool,they're the ones you see doing
the speed train, doing the powertrain, doing the weight
training, doing all that.
Uh, you don't see, you don'tsee all the rest of them doing
that.
So, for that kid, for that kidwho is borderline making a
varsity line up, borderline, uh,getting getting the ability to

(02:21:14):
play in college borderline,making a college, uh lineup, yep
, right.
If we add in these otheraspects, that gives them the
opportunity, without these otheraspects, that they're not going
to get it Right.
Yeah, so you can take a, youcan take a kid who, who?
I'm sorry, you're never goingto be a high school state
champion, because there's justthat thing missing, but you can

(02:21:38):
be right there.
Yep, right, yep, you could beright there.
Mm, hmm.
And then maybe, maybe, if youcontinue wrestling down the road
, you will be the champion.
Yeah, you just haven't poppedyet.
You haven't popped yet, youhaven't developed that skill set
yet and you don't have thenatural ability for it, so
you're not going to do it.

(02:21:59):
Yep, but if you build your bodyand you build your mind, you
can be right next to him.
He'll beat you.
He'll beat you.
In the end It's going to takeeverything he's got.
Yeah, he'll beat you, butyou'll be able to look at him
and say, yeah, i think, i thinkI'm better.

Speaker 1 (02:22:14):
What's missing from a lot of rooms, a lot of rooms,
is the mentality part, is the,the psycho, not mentality, the
psychological part.
So I mean that's why I alwayspreach that it's important that
we've got these guys that comefrom the state that have gone
through a lot of the ringers andbeen through an NA NAI season
or four or an NCAA season orfour in those, because those

(02:22:36):
guys maybe didn't have thatmentality when they first
started but then as they got outof it, they understood and then
being able to bring thatknowledge or just going through
a training course that builds um, that builds up, but it's, i
mean, obviously we know is fromkids that military breaks you
down to build you up right, sothey try to.
They try to, they try to breakyou down because they want to

(02:22:58):
take all those bad aspects, allthat dirty crap that's in there,
that's in your brain, and eraseall that so they can bring you
back up with the good qualitiesyou have.
I get it And I understand it.
I just wasn't going to be thedude that was going through
basic training with someonescreaming in my face, right.
I just don't have thatmentality to be like.
I just got to sit here for asecond and deal with this, the

(02:23:20):
storm, and then get through it.
I'm the dude that's going tosnap like a dry twig because
you're spitting in my face whileyou're talking to me.
But now you put me in asituation where it's something
that like a soccer coach orsomeone else, where I can go out
and then prove my point, cause,like me, going out and running
on a beach with something on myback, i don't think and feel
that I can prove that much.

(02:23:40):
But you give me a ball andsomething like some type of a
goal like that, i can.
I can equate that.
Now, a coach has to deal withhow many of those personalities
within that room, right?
How many of those kids arewilling to push themselves past
that point?
Military, not military, willingto push yourselves past that
point?
And that's where I think a lotof what you do at first there

(02:24:05):
helps a lot just because ofagain, it's you're not just
focusing on the athletic portionof it, as far as the sport goes
, you're focusing on theirathleticism, or lack thereof,
and strengthening it, right, youknow.
So that's, i think, animportant factor where, like, we
talk about Liam a lot, how heneeds a grind room and he needs
a technique room.

(02:24:25):
He likes both of it, butunfortunately in this state
there's a lot of things thatthere isn't both There is there
isn't there isn't one room thatjust focuses on that, focuses on
both, where it's like, yeah,we're going to grind for an hour
and a half, but we're going todo technique for an hour and a
half first.
That kind of thing just doesn'texist.
You don't have time, thingslike that.
So certain places have to focuson certain things just because

(02:24:46):
that's A their specialty, youknow, that's what they're good
at.
B you just don't have the time.
You know you don't have a threehour practice or anything like
that.
Where, if we had, if I think werun into a lot of issues that we
have with sports nowadays, ithink boils down to not the kids
, it's the parents.
It always does.
And if you've listened to anyepisodes, you understand that

(02:25:08):
the only gripe that most ofanything that happens is because
of parents, right, and the, thestyle of mentality that has
changed from parenting.
So we come from, we talk aboutwhen we were young, how you know
it doesn't.
It doesn't mean that you didn'thave a support system, but
you're kind of on your owntrying to figure things out,
right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:25:27):
They were supportive, but yeah, everything was on me.

Speaker 1 (02:25:29):
Correct, correct.
But it was because you wereinterested and you didn't know.
You didn't know the questionsasked, whatever it was.
But now there's so muchinformation now and that kids
find things out and like parentsjust don't want to do this shit
, you know, like you're, like Idon't know Is Bobby's mom
driving there?
Cause I don't know if I want it.
And that's that's way differentthan I think what you were

(02:25:50):
dealing with.
This is more of a I don't knowif this is really important.
How important is it?
Well, it's important to yourfucking kids, you know, like
they think it's important.

Speaker 2 (02:25:59):
Maybe, maybe if you kind of harbor that a little bit
and make them realize that theyput work into something, it
pays off, you know Well yeah,And we just came back full
circle to our start conversationof Wisconsin being one of the
drunkest you know places,because they they'll go out and
they'll spend.
They'll spend $200 at the barin a month, Yes, But they won't,

(02:26:20):
they won't put that money intosomething productive, or packs
of cigarettes and all that othershit.

Speaker 1 (02:26:25):
You know it's, it's, it's, it's it is.
there is a certain factor thatI feel bad for kids.
You know I feel bad.
I even feel bad a little bitfor the parents, because they
were brought up by someone thatmaybe even showed them that you
know.
So there is a long line of whatwe have to kind of you guys as
coaches.
I did it a little bit just withdual teams.
I've never been a club coach.

(02:26:45):
but you guys as coaches have todeal with on a daily.
You don't only have to dealwith the kids personalities, you
have to deal with the fuckingparents personalities And you
hear a lot of coaches that thatkind of gripe about it.
like parents just drop theirkids off as a babysitter, and a
lot of times those kids arehorrible because their parents
are horrible.
But a lot of times that's whatyou want Drop your kids off, get

(02:27:08):
the hell out of here, becauseyou're not going to do any good
being in the room.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:27:13):
And it's a weird enigma.
So there's two different things.
There's the club aspect YupRight.
There's the club aspect where,where You know you need a club
in there, you need your townarea, where it's not
overburdening It's.
It's very simple, it's verybasic, right, and you need those

(02:27:35):
opportunities.
Um, especially in my area here,there's a bunch of K through
eight schools and no middleschools.
So they don't.
They don't even have wrestling,right, shit Yeah.
If there wasn't a club in thearea, there'd be no wrestling
down here.

Speaker 1 (02:27:50):
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (02:27:50):
Yeah, so you need that club aspect so every kid
can get involved, so every kidcan do it, i agree, but you also
need you also need the higherlevel training, the more
specific athlete training forthose who do want to be more
competitive, for those who dohave a natural ability for it.
Um, and, and being aninstructor, being a coach, you,

(02:28:14):
you got to balance, like you'resaying there's only so much time
, but at the same time, by thesame time, parents put too much
emphasis on one thing and tendto ignore the other things,
right, uh?
so, for example, you know, youlook at an athlete's schedule
and they've got four days, fivedays of skill training, oh, and

(02:28:37):
they're doing these workoutshere on these days.
Uh, you know two workouts aweek or this or that.
And they look at it and say,okay, yeah, i would love for him
to do speed training, but whendo I do it?
Actual speed training, truetraining, should take him on 30,
45 minutes, right, and on topof it, you can't subtract one of

(02:29:00):
those days of skill training inthe off season when it's not,
when you're supposed to bebuilding the athlete, when
you're supposed to be improvingyour weaknesses, and say I'm
going to add this time in hereinstead.
Um, it's very easily done, butthere's always an excuse.
There's always some reason whythey don't want to do it or they
can't do it.
Yeah, uh, there's always.

(02:29:22):
You know, too much in my mind.
There's always too muchcompetition as well.
There's too much push to so.
As they get older, it getsbetter.
Like you, look at Liam and theolder guys, you know you focus
on Fargo, you focus on thingslike that.
You don't have to worry aboutall this little annoying stuff,
whereas C, you know, i I attimes battle with myself from

(02:29:44):
parents seem to do this.
I do very little competition inthe off season.
I, i mandate a season forbuilding your own, building the
athlete, for building the body.
Yeah, but I bet.
But I battle with myself when Isee so and so what, and did
this or is doing that?
And I think to myself, ah, shit, we should have went and done
that, like no, and I'll battlewith myself and I put my own

(02:30:07):
foot down like not going to doit.
Yep, we're not going to go runand hit every fucking tournament
.
That means nothing.
Yep, i'm not worried.
I'm not worried about yourjunior high, your, your youth
accolades.
I'm worried about what I turnyou into.
And again, i'm not talkingabout my trying to pump up my
own kid, but Colton is theexample.
Colton was his first time in awrestling room.

(02:30:29):
Coach asks all right, anybodygot any questions?
And he got.
He raises his hand.
Coach calls him.
He goes angry, angry birdtransformer.
He's going to kill me if helistened to this and knows that.
Right, he's a five year old kid.
He doesn't even ask questions.
You know the goober, yeah, yeah.
So while while I'm coaching thisclub, while I am the lead
instructor, i've got parentscomplaining to me that their kid

(02:30:50):
had to wrestle with my kidbecause my kid's not any good.
And I'm sitting here like you,fucking kid, yeah, yeah, and I
just bite my tongue and I wait.
And now, at 13 years old, he'sa fucking stud.
Yeah, yeah, he is working outby himself in the evenings.
He is.
You know, everywhere we go nowpeople look and go.

(02:31:11):
What the fuck happened toColton?
Yeah, time, yeah, time happened.
Wait, precisely.
Just continue the work,continue the effort and wait.
It will happen if the work istrue and honest and you're
focusing on all of it.
His biggest shortfall was hewas an athlete, so we focused on
making him an athlete.
Now I can focus on making himbetter wrestlers, correct Yep,

(02:31:33):
and I do that.
I do that with all my kids, allmy kids that come to me.
Any of them.
I look at it and I gauge and Ibalance and we proceed.

Speaker 1 (02:31:41):
So Yeah, yeah So.

Speaker 2 (02:31:43):
I got, I have a Go ahead.
Real quick, real quick.
So I have this, this kid whohas no, no, no real interest in
doing sports or anything.
He loved.
He did wrestling season lastyear, loved it, but really is a
kid that needs wrestling morethan wrestling needs him right.
And his dad he took some timeoff.
His dad's like, hey, can Colincome in the mornings for your

(02:32:04):
morning workout?
That said generally no, becausethis is an established group
and I'm not going to run him up.
Right, this is an establishedgroup, competitive group.
We come in, we work hard.
I don't know how he's going todeal with that.
So until we get him back inshape and back in, do my Tuesday
, thursday.
Those are the big classesdesigned to build athletes up.
Okay, yep.
Uh, you count, don't?

(02:32:25):
you're not going to do themorning yet, but this week I'm
short numbers.
A bunch of kids are going to beout, so, yeah, go ahead, i'll
stick with him and I'll makesure that that he gets it.
Yeah, the kid, the kid wasgetting fucking after it.
He loved it, right, and it'slike they'll, they'll fall in
love with it.
Given the right time, the rightsituation, had I have thrown

(02:32:48):
him in the full group, maybe not, but being half the group and I
could work with them and givehim his own things and really,
really working through it.
And and he'd look at it andhe's like, yeah, this is awesome
, i'm working out with these bigguys, and he's he loved it.
Yeah, so it.
It just takes time and parentcommitment to the whole concept.

(02:33:09):
It does Right.
Quit yelling at your kid causehe lost a match when you're not
doing shit besides having themwrestle Right.
Yeah, wrestling, wrestling iswrestling is different because
it does build you physically aswell.
Correct, but ultimately,ultimately, anyone who's
wrestling the same is gettingthat same physical build.
Mm, hmm, but this kid over hereis doing the other work.

(02:33:31):
He's focusing on the athlete inthe mind, not just the
wrestling.
And you're going to scream andyell at your kid and be pissed
off at your coaches, notthinking your coaches are good
enough, right When, when Bobbygoes to practice seven days a
week and he's not getting anybetter because Bobby's just
going to fucking wrestlingpractice, it's about it, man
He's not.
he's got eight other shortfallsthat you're neglecting.

(02:33:54):
Yeah, What do you expect?

Speaker 1 (02:33:55):
Yep.
So that was.
I mean, that was a big thingwith Liam coming up, but we, I
mean we did local stuff.
And then that's when I startedasking.
I mean, it wasn't like he was,he wasn't murdering kids.
But I also knew that if he gotbetter competition he was going
to get better.
You know, i I came, i came fromthat.
I knew that if you had goodpartners and you can, i don't

(02:34:16):
care.
I'm really tired here in thisthat the partners don't matter.
Partners do fucking matter.
First and foremost, they do.
Now, granted, do you need tohave the most excellent partner
that does the most excellentthing every single day?
No, you don't need that partnerevery day.

Speaker 2 (02:34:33):
You just, you just said the key.
You just said the key.

Speaker 1 (02:34:36):
It doesn't need to be every day, but you need them
but you need them Correct, andso that's kind of where we dove
into.
Well, where are you guys going?
So we saw where the kids thatwere successful, where you guys
wrestling And not and I wasn'tsaying out loud but this as a
dad, in my head I was like mykid's just as good as yours,
where is he going?
I don't take my kid there too.

(02:34:57):
Well, he wasn't that good Andyou know he'd go there and get
beat, you know.
So as a dad I'm kind of like Oh, what am I doing?
So then I started asking morequestions.
I think there's a lot of peoplethat don't ask questions.
I think a lot of people like tothink that they know what's
going on just by observing fromthe side.
Or maybe you had a dad or acousin that did this kind of
thing And there aren't enoughquestions asked, cause I think

(02:35:18):
what happens is a lot of peopleget treated with the attitude of
well, you don't really he's notgoing to be that good, and Liam
got that for a while, like,well, you know, he should
probably just go here.
I got lambasted when I sent himto a national tournament.
National tournament Um, when itwas his down year, i got I
almost got a costed cause I senthim on his down year And I was

(02:35:39):
like why are you people talking?
What are you talking about downyear?
Like well, he's the younger onein his bracket.
I'm like who gives a shit?
He's still wrestling.
Like he's in fourth gradewrestling middle schoolers in
here.
What's the difference of whatage group he is?
So again, this also rolls intothe venue, or the mindset that
each kid is also different.
You know each kid's builtdifferent.
They're going to do differentthings.
So, but coming up in that andthis is where we kind of talked

(02:36:00):
about a little bit earlier iswhen these kids are trying to
get better and they've beenraised and been taught either by
a coach or whoever it is thatyou should be going out and
picking out any dude in thatroom.
Number one, especially the guysthat are beating you right.
Those are the guys you shouldbe picking out at practice to
find out where your flaws are,things like that.
The problem lies in the, in thepoint that you brought up, is

(02:36:23):
when those kids do go to pickout those kids and then those
kids don't want to practice withthem.
A because I think and I justfrom watching Liam is have.
Those kids don't want to workthat hard, they'll work, they'll
work that hard in competition,but they won't do it on the mat
And some of them wind up doingwell and some of them don't.
But at the same point though,too, like especially at Ascrin

(02:36:44):
and I'm going to beat on Ascrina little bit here you know they
preach a lot about.
You know they spread the roomout and they do this and that
with you know, as far as gettingguys wrestling other kids, they
do it to a certain extent.
Now are they going to sit thereand hold the hands of every kid
and try and teach every kid, oror tell them and force them
that you got to do this?
you know no, and I don't expectJosh or Ben or anybody else to,

(02:37:05):
but at some point you have tostop putting over the blanket of
that.
We make sure every kid isdivided up and doing this.
You can't and you don't,because these kids feel like
that they're.
If they go wrestle with thisother kid, they're going to get
annoyed and they're in all thisother stuff.
They don't want to wrestle withthem.
Well, guess what?
That kid's probably going togive you a harder run for your

(02:37:26):
money than that kid is, and he'sprobably going to wrestle you
harder And the other kids thatthey wind up picking are.
Again, we just wind up going tothe whole buddy thing.
And so these kids are good, imean they're.
They've progressed.
For a reason Mom and dad putthem in the right places in the
right times, with the rightpeople and coaches, because they
probably knew how to read theirkid and they understood their

(02:37:47):
child as far or athlete, as faras how they operate and learning
and training and the thingsthat they excelled from.
But I think at some pointthough too, i think as clubs and
actual coaches not just parents, but the coaches have to stop
selling as much and they have tostart giving the reality of
what it is.
You know you're going to walkinto a room and you're going to

(02:38:08):
like certain things and you'renot going to like certain things
.
You know they give you that.
You know you can go.
You're paying a month.
We didn't.
we're not forcing you to stayhere.
This isn't something that we'remaking people do, kind of thing
.
But I think there's a lot ofcloak and dagger bullshit that
goes on when it comes topeople's names in the news and
that kids a star athlete or thiskid is the face of something.

(02:38:29):
So they wind up getting alittle bit of a better treatment
and they can say that theydon't do that.
But they do it because I guessthey don't know what marketing
is done.
Because that's they're puttingthose kids face on posters and
things like that.
Now, when you have a kid thatwants to learn from that kid
that's on that poster, and thatkid that's on that poster
doesn't want to give that kidthe time of day, guess what?

(02:38:50):
Now that kid who wants to learnfrom him isn't going to teach
that other kid because he justlearned that mentality from that
kid Who he looks up to.

Speaker 2 (02:38:58):
Yeah, it's slippery slope, it's very slippery and
very hard to make.
So it is everything we justtalked.
Everything we just talked about.
I'm going to contradict it all.
It makes sense in.
But who's in the lifestyle andunderstand it makes sense to you
saying and people know me, butI don't give a shit about any of

(02:39:21):
it, because it's just wrestling.
It's just wrestling, yeah,right, there's a lot more
important things, yep.
That being said, i do nothinghalf-assed and I do nothing to
the point of where I'm not goingto be the best at it or make
you the best, right, right,that's the mentality to have,
and I think what too manycoaches do, or too many rooms,

(02:39:45):
the way they end up, is there'stoo much emphasis put on the oh,
the good kids are with the goodkids and the bad kids are with
the bad kids, or then there'sthose great kids in between to
where the coaches need to fostera mentality of we are all going
together, yeah, and I try veryhard to do this, and I know

(02:40:06):
you've you've heard me saythings are, liam, you know,
nobody gets anywhere bythemselves, correct, there is no
such thing as a self-made man.
There is no such thing.
Nobody gets anywhere bythemselves.
And what that really good kidis ignoring, right?
You know the old saying it'shard to stay on the mountain, or
it's, you know nobody's harderto stay on the peak of the
mountain than climbing blah,blah, all that.

(02:40:28):
What that?
what that kid, what that guy onthe top of the mountain is
ignoring, is that by trainingwith the guy who's coming up,
he's able to maintain a levelthat is building to get to the
top of the mountain.
Yep, right, a legacy.
When you, when you right, whenyou train with you're at the top
of the mountain and you haveyour training partner who's at

(02:40:49):
top mountain and you choretogether.
Hmm.
And that's all you do.
You forget some of the lessonslearned.
So you need to.
Just because you go down themountain doesn't mean you can't
get back up, doesn't mean you'regoing to hit the, you can't
climb the next one.
Right, right, go, go down withthat guy that that's in the grip
, that's in the dirt, and thatkid like you're saying that is,

(02:41:11):
that is just hard to wrestle.
He sucks at wrestling but he'sso strong and fast and annoying.
Go wrestle with him because heis going to make you better in
ways that you not, that you'renot.
And at the same time, you'regoing to make him better.
And guess what?
If you are actually on the sameteam, bam, now your team is
better.

Speaker 1 (02:41:29):
Your whole team is better.
Exactly, exactly.
That's.
That's the mentality I've beenteaching to Liam forever Don't
change what you're doing becauseyou're different from someone
else and you're giving someoneelse a different look, right, if
they don't want to look yourway, they'll lose.
They'll lose And it's whathappens.

Speaker 2 (02:41:45):
There is.
There is something to be saidto.
I listened to your, to Max, askher and talk about this And
this.
This is an art that I learnedlater in life as well, and when
I was in the service and howwe'd wrestle and stuff.
Is the idea of sparring right,control sparring, yup Um, that.
That aspect is something thatis very hard to learn.

(02:42:08):
It's hard to do with with youth, uh, and and when it controlled
sparring, you're not going thathard And there's a time and a
place for that.
Yeah, and and.
And a kid like Liam, i wouldassume he does understand that,
but, like he does, he needs toknow that, that that sometimes

(02:42:29):
when I'm wrestling these kids,i'm in a controlled sparring
pace Yup Well, they're at that,they're live pace, because this
is how I actually get better,cause if I go to my life pace is
crush him Yup Right, it does.
It doesn't help him, doesn'treally help me.
But if I slow it down and I tryto do things rather than if I
try to flow with it as opposedto force it, then I'll improve

(02:42:52):
And at the same time, he'sgetting better because he's able
to work with me.
Yup, um.
So that is, that is the key tothat enigma.
And enough places don't do that,right?
Yeah, it's, it's live, it'slive wrestling or it's technique
sessions.
And we, we have a hard time andit's hard with youth.
I don't necessarily blamepeople, it's hard.

(02:43:12):
Yup, you have a hard timeteaching youth that you have to
be at that controlled sparringpace when you're actually
drilling technique.
Yes, you're not going, you'renot going slow, like, okay, this
is how I learned the steps, ijust learned this, this
technique, and you just slowdown, make sure my hand
placement, make sure my footplacement.
Yup, once you're past thatinitial stage, you need to be at

(02:43:33):
that controlled sparring pace.

Speaker 1 (02:43:34):
Yeah, And that's and that's hard for a lot of the
high school kids learned too.
I mean, i was just cause a lotof them don't, they're not, and
I think that was.
I think to me that was a oneone.
One of many aspects that Ascrindid bring to our side of the
state anyways, is that thesekids are able to slow it down.
Um, cause, you know, like Benwould talk about I think he said
something about how you wouldsee visions of people, you know

(02:43:58):
just doing moves in his head orwhatever, and you wound up just
kind of translating into what hewas doing, but they weren't
like flying all over the place,Like it was weird.
This thing's just kind ofslowed down a little bit and
what they were doing.
It makes sense to be able to dothat, you know.
Like you know, with thesparring and Liam does enjoy the
sparring because you get towork the kinks out, like you
said you get to see exactlywhere.

(02:44:18):
Oh, normally I'm here, i got tobe here, okay, and you're not
going to do that at 5,000 milesan hour with another guy.
It's 170 pounds, you know,trying to figure it out.
So he does appreciate thosedays wholeheartedly now that,
especially with some of thebottom work is hard.
You know we're coming up fromthe bottom and high school is
difficult, so that's helped hima lot in sparring and being able
to know where he needs to gethis his ankles to and free his

(02:44:40):
hips up enough to be able to getout.
So there are certain aspects toevery single club, you know,
maybe, except for one or twothat I know of that that have
brought kids up a level.
You know maybe two.
But at the same point, theretoo I think there's a lot that's
lacking as far as what youallow certain athletes to do and

(02:45:02):
not do, and get away with andnot get away with.
And it's all a control thingreally.
It really just boils down towhat does the coach allow, what
do they don't allow.
But I think in the aspect ofkids growth, i think this state
has, i mean it's it's huge withthe amount of training, the
amount of the amount ofdifferent looks that kids can
have now, with the amount ofcoaches that are around.

(02:45:23):
I mean just the availability ofknowledge for these kids now in
athletics.
And I play, like I said, iplayed soccer forever but even
that's grown, you know.
I mean it's just a.
It's good to see that thesepeople that were dedicated to
the point that they made it toan upper level that they are
willing to now come back and wetalked about this earlier come
back and put all that to workwith the kids that are in the

(02:45:46):
state now and they get to reapthe rewards and the benefits of
that.
And it's awesome.
I I can sit here and bag onwhoever, but there's so many
opportunities with a lot ofthese clubs that are in the
state, especially with what youguys offer, done by you, with
the indoctrination and the, thetraining camps that you guys do.
I think is a big benefit towhere I'm all about And I just

(02:46:06):
got done talking to the GrecoUnited guys about this about
people finally actually gettingtogether about four years ago,
getting together about fuckingwrestling, instead of trying to
divide it up between folk stylefreestyle and Greco and
everybody's.
We're over here cause we dothis, we're not leg grabbers,
and we're over here cause we'releg grabbers and all this other
shit.
I think it's be great if, ifAWA was like Hey, we're going to

(02:46:27):
send a, we're 20 kids, we'regoing to send a first there
training facility to do someconditioning, you know, or or it
was.
Uh, let's see, uh, you guyssending uh 20 kids up to so and
by Ben to do, just bouncingthings off of each other, so
these kids can become better.
All these kids are different,so that's the go ahead, go ahead

(02:46:48):
.

Speaker 2 (02:46:48):
Sorry.
So that's, that's the perfectsegue.
I could, i could, i couldn'thave, we could have, we couldn't
have rehearsed that and plannedit any better.
Yeah, so, with with theexperiences that I have in the
training, right, it is, in myopinion, the the best way and
the most appropriate way to makethe best product you can, to
make the best athlete person,and whatever you can is to

(02:47:11):
utilize all sorts of differentplaces.
Um so, the, the trainingfacility, was never intended to
be just a wrestling club, yupRight.
So the idea of aspirin sending20 kids to me is what should
happen.
Yup Right.
Yup, go through the state ofWisconsin.

(02:47:32):
I know of two other dudes whohave my qualifications that were
from the state of Wisconsin.
Uh right, you go through.
You look at it as I'm.
I still do wrestling because Ilove wrestling, yup And.
But I put the club out of myhands.
I took the club out of my handsand put it back in school and

(02:47:53):
found good, capable, will notpeople to do it and said this is
your baby, run with it Like youare the guys to do these things
?
I couldn't do, yup, because allthe best thing we can do is
work together and everyone geteveryone's input aspects.
I love taking my kidseverywhere, right Everywhere,
and anyone like Oh, you're doingsomething here, You're doing

(02:48:14):
something there, yeah, Let me,i'm still the belly button,
right.
All my kids that I've beenbringing up, the ones that have
wrestled for me under state linejunior panther's now first
there on their belly button, yup, okay, i'll guide you where to
go.
Mm, hmm.
And then you bring those, those20 kids from aspirin, those
those 15 from you know crass,those other guys, yup.
You absolutely send them to meto get a different view, a

(02:48:38):
different look at differentskill set Yup, and then you
bring them back and youimplement it right.
Harder than that And thedifference with me?
the difference with me too,like Hey, coaches, come with,
yeah, come with, i will designand implement and do things for
you, yup, and then you take whatyou want out of it and build
from there, exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:48:59):
And that's I'm not gonna.
That's the biggest thing is like, again, you, like you said,
it's not that you're notinvolved in wrestling, It's what
you do still has to do withwrestling and actually enhances
the wrestling.
So it's, it's geared towards itin the, in the way that you're
training for it.
You're not training in it,You're training for it And then
you're going to put that towardsit.

(02:49:19):
Like you said, the coaches Hey,take what I'm doing here, Take
it up by you.
You know, take it up by you.
There are going to be certainthings here that I can only do,
but take some of this with you,you know, like make these kids
better.

Speaker 2 (02:49:31):
That's the whole point, you know we're not, and
that's why I made the big switchto get the wrestling out.
So there's too many egos, right, too many.
Well, why would I send my kiddown to CJ to learn wrestling
when he's going to Ben Askerin?
So fucking dumb.
Yeah, yup, right.
So so I take, i take thewrestling out of it and I say,

(02:49:54):
yeah, go to go, go to BenAskerin, go to this other, go to
relentless down there, right,since I'm right on the border
with, with Jordan Blanton andall that, go to that for your
wrestling skill set.
Cool, yeah, do it.
But those guys don't do what Ido.
No, they haven't done what I'vedone.
Nope, they don't have thebillions of dollars put into
their body and their educationand how to build a mindset and

(02:50:15):
different things.
Right, right, let's all worktogether.
Yup, right.
You say, hey, askerin goes.
Hey, like, and it's on me too,i've got to get out there and
tell these people, like thatFargo camp.
Hey guys, you know, we're goingto give CJ these two blocks
during this camp and he's goingto put you through a ringer.
He's going to do these somedifferent events for you and

(02:50:36):
I'll do my talking points andall that And it's it can all be
put together.

Speaker 1 (02:50:40):
Correct, correct And that's, and I think, i think
that's, i think that's kind ofthe the next evolution I think
for for the sport.
I mean, i think I asked, ithink it has been, maybe it's
max two, can the sport evolveanymore?
That's kind of a dumb question,but I'm kind of curious to see
where people think it could go.
You know, like a move wise?
Okay, sure, you could develop anew move, things like that.

(02:51:03):
But really what everybody talksabout when it comes to
wrestling itself, it's not thedestination, it's the trip in
between.
Right, the only thing wehaven't changed is the trip in
between.

Speaker 2 (02:51:16):
The destination Still the same, but we haven't
changed that It's nobody's goingto say anything and I don't
know.
I'm not, i'm not in these roomswith these people.
But for me, from the outsideviewing it, the highest level,
the Olympic and world level, isalready doing it and not saying
anything about it.
Um, why?

(02:51:36):
why do you see these high levelwrestlers changing wrestling
clubs?
Because the belly button, theOlympic people, the people in
charge of it, are saying I needyou, uh, we need to improve this
aspect.
We're going to put you overhere.
This place is better for that.
I need to do this, and they'rethey're dropping the ego and
they're moving around, just likethe military does, just like

(02:51:58):
like I did my training.
Right, we would go to thisshooting school.
We would go to this school foror you're trapped in trouble.
We would go to this school forthis training.
We'd go to this school for thistraining.
You go around to the educationthat you need.
Somewhere's the belly button,the Olympic committee, the world
team.
You know that's the bellybutton, but you go around these
other places, um, yeah, and thenyou know youth wise, club wise.

(02:52:19):
Well, if, unfortunately, thereis businesses behind this and
there's money behind it.
But but if you truly want to bethe best if you truly want to
have that.
If, if, as a business owner andas a competitor, you're saying
I'm going to make the bestwrestling academy there is, then

(02:52:40):
then you need to farm yourathletes out to the best places
and what you're trying to trainthem on Right.
So you have to.
You have to lose the ego andadmit that.
Well, we sent him down to CJfor this.
We sent him over to here forthis.
We sent him to this track andfield coach to work on the
vertical.
You know that sort of shit.

Speaker 1 (02:53:00):
Yeah, totally Yep.
So that said, man, we've beengoing for three hours.

Speaker 2 (02:53:04):
You know what I'm saying Yeah, wife keeps looking
at me.

Speaker 1 (02:53:07):
We got.
we got a holiday weekendlooking at us in the face, So I
did.
there are a lot of things thatI still want to talk about,
obviously, because I mean youand I could talk for days, Oh
yeah.
So, with that said, we'reprobably going to wrap, but what
I want you to do is I anythingyou want to plug?
put it out there, plug it.

Speaker 2 (02:53:26):
Oh, i'm a horrible businessman.
I don't.
I don't plug.
I want to train those who wantto train, and I don't do it for
a living, so it's nice, but inin a way, anyone and everyone
that is looking for knowledgebased experience, team events,
you know, needs to get incontact with me.
Yeah, i'm, i'm doing these teamcamps, and I would like to do

(02:53:48):
more of them.
So any of the, any of the highschool teams out there, even if
you're a club team, uh, contactme.
It's only, you know, we canplan it for a day, we can plan
it for a weekend, generallyrevolver on a three hour block,
yep, yep.
And, like I said, though,everybody's got to work.
You're going to get aPowerPoint of information that
you're going to expect to showup, prepared, prepared for Right

(02:54:09):
.
It's part of the evaluationprocess.

Speaker 1 (02:54:12):
Right.
So, like you said, they expectthe kids to do something.
They got to do something.

Speaker 2 (02:54:16):
Right.
If you really want to beevaluated, if you really want to
be challenged as a team, wellthen, you need more than put
your feet and walk across this.
No, i need to be able toevaluate you on how you
performed in a task that you hadbeforehand and a task you were
given at the time, and a taskthat you completed when you were
out of your wits, when you weretired.

Speaker 1 (02:54:37):
So 10, four, 10, four .
Well, it's been a pleasurefinally being able to get you on
the show.
Man, it is CJ Vroomen of first,their training facility.
If you guys have an opportunityto send your team down, send
your club a couple.
You know, maybe have a 10 kidsfrom, or 20 kids from your club
go down.
It's wrestling geared training.

(02:54:57):
It's not always just going tobe all wrestling, it's going to
be geared to making you awrestling machine.
So get in touch with him.
He's on Facebook, he's.
He's everywhere, man.
I mean, find him.
Otherwise, get ahold of me.
I'll get you in touch with him.
This has been another episodeof many for this weekend of the
vision quest podcastno-transcript.

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#53 - CJ Vroman - Owner - Coach - Trainer At First There Training Facility

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#53 - CJ Vroman - Owner - Coach - Trainer At First There Training Facility