#97 Mike VanBrill: Overcoming Challenges to Achieve Wrestling Glory

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Thank you guitar solo .

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Thank you guitar solo we ain't going over again.

(02:12):
We ain't doing that over again,we're starting now.
All right, buddy, everybody, weare here, we are back for you,
I think it's.
I think we're at almost episode100, um, but we are back for
another episode of the VisionQuest podcast.
We are joined by a very specialguest.
I kind of talked to you alittle bit before because we've
had Sri on and on.
You're like hey man, I knowthat guy and I started looking

(02:33):
at some of the stuff you've beendoing in some of the video
things.
We're going to talk about thatin a little bit further down the
road, but you've done somepretty cool visual stuff and it
turns out that's what you'redoing.
But I am joined by mr mike vanbrill uh, of what's the company
name you have now?

Speaker 3 (02:48):
um well, honestly it's kind of a like a side thing
, just like, okay, mike vanbrill, honestly okay, yeah, yeah
all right.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
So of rutgers you wrestle.
Uh, 140 was a 141 149.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, all over the place, man.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
141, 149, 157, yeah what you got up to 157, holy cow
, I did not see a match that I.
I'll tell you this much rightnow.
I don't do enough leading intowhat like, I guess, telling the
story about you from before weget to you.
So you're born in this littletown called malika hills, right
is it malika?

(03:21):
Uh, malika hill?
Yeah, malika hills.
Okay, very small like I.
I was kind of intrigued when Ifirst found in 1701, but man,
tiny, yeah.
And what was the high schoolyou went to?

Speaker 3 (03:32):
it's called cleary regional high school okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
So with with the small town you're from, let's
talk about your mom and dad.
So they were that.
Were they from there?
Did they originate from thatarea in jersey?

Speaker 3 (03:44):
yeah, so I'll start from the very beginning, if you
don't mind.
Yeah, yeah, so I didn't choosewrestling, wrestling chose me.
I was born into a family.
We were an immigrant family.
My grandpa, you know, basicallystarted it all.
He originated from Indonesia,way back in the day, indonesia,
um, way back in the day, and, um, you know, long story short, he

(04:04):
ended up in a?
Um, a bad situation down inIndonesia where the Japanese war
came in and took over and, uh,he was just a young kid that you
know started off, um, you know,in a concentration camp, young
in his age, where he was, youknow, working and um, you know,
he was actually young enough tonot actually, um be like a
worker, um, so he was actuallylike in the mountains and he

(04:28):
would tell me stories about howhe used to, you know, with the
other, you know young, you knowkids, they would get into these
bamboo huts, make these bamboohuts and they would wrestle each
other, um, and then, so that'swhere the Bambrill wrestling, uh
genetics started way back inwhich is, yeah, so that's where
it started, um, and he ended upactually fleeing um, you know,

(04:49):
leaving uh Indonesia with justlike a backpack and a hundred
bucks and a kid, and and and mygrandma.
They went to Holland, um,raised four kids and then they
didn't love the opportunity inHolland, so they actually moved
to New Jersey, um, where theyhad, uh, my dad, who was the
only brother of six boys toactually be born in um, america.

(05:11):
So, yeah, and when they got to,you know, New Jersey it's funny
my grandpa was sponsored by achurch, um, so he was just a
dude that came in as a janitorand, uh, you know, and
eventually worked his way up andstarted his own business, own
business, entrepreneurialbusiness.
But you know, when they firstgot in there, all of the
brothers right were my.
My grandpa was a disciplinarianguy, so he kept them relatively

(05:33):
straight and they, basically,you know, we do hold all these
weird events, tumbling eventsand all these things.
So it was in my genetics that,you know, I had some sort of
athletic background and all ofthem went into wrestling, uh,
for Clearview regional highschool and, um, you know, we
actually had one state champion,uncle, um, he was my uncle and
he actually won New JerseyStates and, um, you know, went

(05:55):
to like a Juco college and endedup wrestling for the U?
S and, and you know a little bit, but not nothing crazy.
Um, none of them actually wentto college and went division one
.
Um, me and my brother were theonly ones that, uh, you know,
went to college and division oneand stuff, but really that's
kind of where the wholewrestling journey started.
And then that's how I ended upin south jersey, um, where you

(06:16):
know I was born, and then kindof had to, you know, start my
career at clearview high schoolso were there other sports that
came?

Speaker 2 (06:22):
I mean, just obviously you had the wrestling
kind of background right, butwere you trying other things as
you were kind of going alonglike a any other usual kid?
Would you know soccer one yearor something, football, but was
there any any other sport thatyou stuck with along with
wrestling as you kind of grew up?

Speaker 3 (06:36):
yeah, it's funny.
I actually love thisconversation because you know,
um, I I grew up playing alldifferent sports.
I played baseball, I playedfootball pretty heavily, um, I
played hockey, um, I did alittle jujitsu and I played, um
man, all the, all the sports.
Honestly, you know I was a bikerider, bmx, or I was huge into
biking, um, and all thesedifferent things, right, and and

(06:59):
it sparked my interest in justlike competitive sports and just
being you know a kid, honestly.
So, yeah, I played a bunch ofdifferent sports growing up.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
What were your parents like?
As far as we always talk abouta support system, what were your
parents like coming up inathletics?
I mean, we'll talk about iteven more as we get further down
, but like, just as a kid, wasyour dad as competitive you hear
about, not like crazy dad, buthe?

Speaker 3 (07:30):
knew what it took to kind of be able to push the
limits a little bit.
Where was dad at practice was,how was dad or mom when it came
to your athletics?
Yeah, so my parents were reallypresent for my like athletics
in general.
Um, my dad ended up pursuing adivision one, uh, college.
He was soccer, he was, uh, sohe was a soccer player.
Um, you know, and, and that'swhat?
Yeah, you said you were asoccer player.
You know and and that's what?
Yeah, oh, you said you were asoccer player.
Cool, yeah, they were, theywere super supportive.

(07:50):
I wouldn't have been able to doit without them and my dad.
So, you know, kind of likerewinding back, my dad started
us in wrestling and you know hewas more so adamant on wrestling
or soccer.
You know football, obviously itwas fun and you know whatever.

(08:10):
But you know I'm, I'm a, I'm a,you know, I'm like five, eight,
like not that, no, um, so, yeah, so it was just kind of like
from the start.
But my dad started us in thebasement of my house, me and my
brother.
We would, uh, he, you know,after school he'd bring us down
into the basement and he wouldjust have us drill, drill, drill
.
He would say finish these 20singles, 20 doubles, 20 high

(08:31):
crotches, all this stuff.
And then he would always belike, hey, if you do these moves
correctly and you do themperfect, we'll be able to go
upstairs and we'll have dinnerand we'll be done for the night.
Turns out, every time we woulddo them perfectly and we'd get
to that last rep.
He would just repeat and do itall over again, so there was
never an ending.
And then by the time we weredone me and John, me and my

(08:52):
brother we wanted to wrestleeach other because we were so
competitive like unbelievablycompetitive that he would just
have us go at it down in thebasement.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
But, yeah, super supportive as I was growing up
basement, um, but yeah, supersupportive as I was growing up
and um, yeah, they, they, reallyhelped.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
What was the age difference between you and john
me and my brother?
Just about two years.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
One year and 11 months so you guys had a nice
spread.
You kind of had some goodpartners, practice partners that
maybe maybe your brother didn'tfeel the same way like mine
didn't when I practiced with him, but but it sounds like you
were able to kind of compete andyou had that drive and both you
had it.
So that makes really goodpartners.
So, and you had that drive andboth of you had it, so that
makes really good partners.
So when you guys would wrestle,would he go to certain
tournaments and your dad wouldbe like, oh no, you're not ready

(09:32):
for that one kind of thing.
Was there a balance like that?
No, he's doing it, you can doit too.
You're fine, you can compete inthis.
How was that?

Speaker 3 (09:46):
So my dad was not so and that we so you know, my dad
was not like a guy that wasgoing to baby.
Any of us, like he had me go upin the upper, we would, you
know, do like a larger agegroups like I wouldn't go into
my age group.
Um, you know, I'd wrestle on,you know, higher age groups.
My brother and me we wouldwrestle in the same tournaments.
We would go compete.
That's when we really started,you know.
After, like you know, 8, 10, 12years old, I wrestled for a
Seagulls wrestling club.
It was really well-known, Ishould say, but it's been around

(10:10):
since the 1970s.
I grew up in that club.
We basically trained all thetime We'd go to War at the Shore
, all these different travelclubs let's read that about you.
Yeah, that's right, yep so, yeah, I mean, we would just compete
and we, you know, try and findthe best competition and like
that's kind of how it allstarted.
At a young age I started when Iwas four years old.

(10:32):
Yeah, yeah, hard.
So what.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
So when become it seems like you east coast guys,
I tell you what man like it, andI've never heard a story yet
where dad was insane, dad wascrazy.
I just watched a video of a dadshoving a ref today at a
tournament, but you had a dadthat pushed you right.
It was the same thing I didwith Liam, because I mean, with
soccer, in athletics in general,like to be in the top of

(10:56):
whatever you're doing.
You have to be doing thingsthat other guys aren't doing,
right?
Yeah, seven, eight years old, Ididn't make him do workouts,
but I made him come down to thebasement at 5am to understand
that he had to get up at 5amsometimes to make this stuff
work.
I said pushups.
I don't care what it is, but itseems like your dad had that
same kind of mentality and Iwasn't down here hounding him.

(11:16):
This was up to him.
Like this was the time where Iwas able to leave him alone and
do his thing.
Before we go up to the practiceroom and start kind of needling
with that type of of I don'teven want to call pressure with
that type of push.
Did you ever find yourself kindof like, eh, maybe I don't want
to wrestle, or did you guysfeed off of that and you're in
your?
It was the thing you needed tokeep going was how your dad kind

(11:39):
of gave you that push.
Did you ever find yourself wantto quit?

Speaker 3 (11:43):
yeah.
So I think this is actuallyprobably one of my favorite
conversations because it showshow, like, oh, you can be, you
know you can have, you know, atthe end, you see all this, you
know success, but, like in thebeginning, there were so many
trials and tribulations thatpeople just don't see, right,
right, um.
So, yeah, I remember, uh,specifically, you know, um,
early on in my career.
My, for me, like I love to bikeride, I love to be out with my

(12:05):
friends, I love to just go innature and, like, cliff jump and
have fun and just be a kid,right.
So, you know, my dad learned tokind of mold his just like ways
of, you know, being a father.
Right, he saw that when, I, youknow, wanted to skip practice
and do you know something else,you know, it got to a point
where, like you know, he almosthad to back off because I was

(12:27):
losing a passion for the sport.
So, yeah, there was a timecause I started when I was four
years old right, there was atime, a long period of time,
where I just like got so fed upwith wrestling and I almost
wanted to quit.
There was a time in my middleschool career where I almost
gave it up.
And then there was a time inhigh school actually it was
after my freshman year of highschool I almost quit.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah.
So that's, that's thattimeframe Like that's kind of
curious, cause that's I mean, ifyou think about it just as as
guys ourselves really start tokind of rebel a little bit.
You know, you got thattestosterone going now and
you're like I got this, let's,let me do this kind of thing.
And we had it with Liam too.
We understand like we're kindof going through that right now
and so I've had to.
I've I've known that where I putin like you said, the club that

(13:10):
you go, you went to, was aroundforever.
So your dad probably knew that.
You know the guys in the cluband and and things like that.
But Liam kind of grew up to thepoint to where I put him in
front of people where I thankgod I could finally just be like
I'm done, I don't have to doanything anymore.
I could step back because Ididn't want to get to a point,
because I could see myself I wasdoing that to him in middle
school and I had to kind ofvisualize okay, would I want

(13:32):
this?
And it's hard, I heard I, Iknow it's hard, I know not
everybody has a carry cola dadwith cattle prods and things
like that.
But everybody gets pushed to apoint and it's just kind of.
It's kind of interesting to seewhere everybody has that
perspective of like you know, Ireally could have, but I didn't
because I had this and you hadto drive.
You really had to drive.
So, with that being said, whatwas one of the tougher

(13:53):
tournaments you were in when youwere young, like really young?

Speaker 3 (14:00):
Probably war at the shore.
I remember specifically it waskind of one of the turning
points in like my youth career.
It was war at the Shore.
I remember specifically it waskind of one of the turning
points in my youth career.
It was War at the Shore.
I was kind of floundering.
I had success in wrestling butit wasn't really a point where I
had nationwide success at all.
Very beginning.

(14:20):
Um, that got me to thesemifinals match against this
one kid I wish I could rememberhis name, but he was ranked
number two in the country at thetime, obviously as a youth
youth you know what I mean likenot high school or college, but
still they're making a name.
They're wrestling around thecountry.
There's obviously, you know,some sort of um ranking around.
He was a big name guy and youknow I made it to the semifinals

(14:41):
and I was walking hallway rightwith my dad to go look at the
brackets because my dad was allexcited.
He was like, man, we're at thesemifinals, we're doing good,
you know.
Finally, and we were at thebracket line and we were looking
at the brackets and my dad waslike, okay, here you go Looking
at the next match on who I haveright.
And there was my opponent's dadwas sitting right next to my

(15:03):
dad, didn't know that they wereboth next to each other and my
dad, or his dad, said somethingnasty about me.
He was yeah it's like he wasjust saying, like you're gonna
crush his kid, like yeah, he'snobody at all.
And my dad heard that and itfired him up.
He was like mikey, we're gonnago out on this mat and we're
gonna crush this dude.
Like I want you to just go allout.

(15:24):
And I was like I don't know.
I was just like fired up.
I was just like I don't evenknow why.
It was a bigger purpose versusjust like oh, like winning a
match.
It was like no, like I'm goingto, I'm going to prove to the
world like you know the country.
My dad, like whoever- that thingmatch, and I was a kid that was

(15:47):
like really relied on like big,uh, fancy moves, like I wasn't
the kid that went into practiceand had really good basic
technique.
Looking back, should I haveprobably did that, maybe, but I
just was the kid that would justthrow quarters and throws and
all these different things.
Right, but it benefited.
Next thing, you know, I foundmyself in the second period.
I rip a quarter, nelson, I'm uplike I don't know, like four,
four or five points and Isqueaked out a win against one
of the top kids in the countryas a youth kid.
So um that like was a real bigdeal for me and like and that's

(16:10):
what helped me, kind of like, um, continue to believe that I was
going to be able to dosomething in the sport oh yeah,
so that that does set someone upfor you know just a, not only
just a, you know success for theweekend.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
But I mean that really can turn like you said.
That can turn your mind intowhat, what you think you're
capable of.
You know what you think your,your mission could possibly be.
You're like holy man, if Icould be this guy and then I
keep working, I could, I couldgo and beat this guy, I could be
this guy.
That's awesome, that's.
That's really good to hear,especially at such a young age.
Because, again, we're in themidwest, I wouldn't know.

(16:42):
We're starting have toughwrestling.
We're starting to kind of climbback to where we were from in
the 80s.
But you guys have always hadmonsters out there and beasts as
these little kids and thesedual tournaments we go to.
When you started, were you guysinto the dual tournament scene?
Did you guys?
Did you guys?
Oh, he's this many pounds,we'll wrestle up to this one for

(17:03):
you guys.
How was that kind of a dynamicwhere you guys gone every
weekend?

Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah.
So we would travel withSeagulls Wrestling Club all the
time.
We didn't have like the bestteam but we always tried to find
the best competition.
I don't know if you know some,some studs man that came out of
Seagulls I just you'd never knew.
One was Miles Martin.
He was a national champion andhe was a national champion no
kidding.
Yeah, he wrestled with us allthe time.
I'm trying to think of a coupleother guys, but yeah, I mean

(17:29):
they just so.
We had a couple tough guys, butit wasn't a well-rounded team.
And I just remember going tothese tournaments against like
PA Gold, pa Blue, like all thesestacked teams, right, and it
was just brutal because it waslike, okay, I'm going to compete
against some of the best kidsin the country and you know, we
were just like this, like littleteam at a little town, um, but
it was one of the best thingsfor me to start early at those

(17:51):
tournaments because it just it,just like you get around, I
remember just wrestling guyslike Vincenzo, joseph, like all
these guys.
They would just be wrestling.
I wrestled Vincenzo, I wrestledthese guys, those guys.
So when you get to a higherlevel, you're like oh, like I've
been around this for a longtime and it starts to build like
confidence within yourself thatyou can actually be there.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
That's awesome.
Well, the other thing too is isyou at such a young age, plus
the competition that you're ableto be around, Did you find
yourself maybe thinking I needto, I need to get out of this
room, I need to move, I needbetter competition, dad, I need
better partners.
I got to get this.
Did you ever did you have tomove on?
Was there another club you hadto go to to kind of expand the
skills a little bit more?

Speaker 3 (18:29):
So here's the one thing about me and just like I
don't know if it's, you knowit's I stay very loyal and I
keep a small circle and I'vebeen that way.
I can say that now because youknow I was with Rutgers for six
years when it was popular forNIL to come out and everyone to
start changing up teams and likebouncing around because you
know they may not have astarting spot or they're going

(18:50):
to get money somewhere else.
I wasn't that guy.
I was the guy to just stayplanted, you know, continue to
build my relationships with thecoaches, with the team, just
like everyone around me and likeI felt like loyalty was so
strong to me that I wanted to bethat.
So, looking back, you know I wasloyal to Seagulls.
I wrestled there and I believethat, you know, as long as I
train my hardest and continue tojust like put my all into it,

(19:11):
then I'll be able to just likedo anything and and it turns out
that it's right.
You know there was, you knowyou look at, you know oh, like,
oh, blair kids, all these toughlike and not to knock all those
teams were oh, yeah, yeah likelooking into how I succeeded in
the college level.
Some of those guys like bobartlett, some of these other
guys that trained at blair.
I turned out to be beatingthose guys.
So it's not necessarily likeyou know.

(19:34):
You look at conor mcgregor.
He he's a guy that stayed atsome of the the same training
centers and you know he was ableto succeed.
So I don't necessarily thinkit's like oh, you got to bounce
around and try and find allthese different things right,
there is a balance right.
You've got to have goodpartners, you've got to have a
good environment for you tocontinue to work up and succeed.
But at the same time it's likedig your roots and like trust in
yourself.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
Very true, very true.
I think Ben Askren had saidsomething about that at one
point too is that you don't haveto have you know world partners
and things like that.
You have to just got to besmart in how you wrestle and be
smart how you practice, becauseI mean, it boils down to a lot.
You don't realize it as a kid,especially even once you get
into high school, because youthink you know it all.
But I mean nutrition, you knowthings like that and and just

(20:15):
coming up and things that wedon't teach our kids necessarily
, you may try to, but in the, inthe, I guess, in the smoke of
it all, you kind of get lost,like you, just like you want
your kid to do well, okay,here's some spaghetti, but you
got to wrestle harder, jimmy,you know that kind of thing.
So with, with the time that youcame up in the competition
cause you're naming some prettybig dudes and you beat one of
the big, you beat Bo Bartlett.

(20:37):
So I mean, when you're comingup and with the competition that
you had, and knowing you knowyour loyalty in in the things
that happened, you know whetherit was good or great coming up
and you had a few good matches.
Where did you see yourself?
Kind of middle school Were you?
Were you waiting to get to thehigh school period?
Where you're in, middle schoolLike, this is not, I need to
bump up, I need to get to thefurther level, how?

(20:58):
How was middle school for youCause?
I think that's kind of anawkward time I think a lot for a
lot of guys when they'rewrestling it was a super awkward
time.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
Um, you know, I went to clear view.
Um, there was a timeframe whereour clear view program really
was bad.
I mean for for decades, I meanliterally decades, all before it
happens, man, yeah yeah.
But my brother actually, uh,you know, graduated and went
into high school and uh, therewas a couple other like studs
that you know trained at theClearview youth team that was

(21:25):
aware of like coming up.
So what we did, my dad and someof his friends was they
actually recruited a collegecoach, a guy who wrestled under
Dan Gable for Iowa.
He was a national finalist.
His name is Keith Moreland.
Oh yeah, yeah finalist.

(21:46):
His name is Keith Moreland.
Oh yeah, yeah, for Virginiatech, um, and he found himself
in the little town of SouthJersey one summer to do clinics
at Seagulls, um, and at the timehe had left Virginia tech and
he was looking for otheropportunities.
There was a friend that he hadin South Jersey that brought him
out to make money and do campsand clinics and stuff.
He actually recruited him tobecome the head coach of
Clearview.
So I knew that, like while Iwas in middle school, they were

(22:07):
planning this bigger thing goingon.
They were trying to build abigger team.
You know, clearview didn't haveany success, but they were
trying.
They were.
They were trying to dosomething and I was.
I remember I was the guy.
Somehow I was either caught inbetween weight classes or just,
you know, like looking for acompetitive advantage, or maybe
I was just.
I was always the guy findingmyself cutting weight.

(22:28):
So even in middle school I wasthe guy that was just eating
cliff bars, barely drinkingwater, didn't really know how to
do any cutting weight either.
So I was like, oh, let me weighthis piece of cookie on the
scale.
Oh, it's 0.1.
Let me eat that because I'mgoing to be light after practice
.
Little did I know that all ofthat cookie would hold all the

(22:50):
water weight and then I wouldgain a pound from a little
cookie.
Just I learned the power ofwhole foods and just like you
know water contents and howdifferent you know real food is
from processed food.
So that came later down theline.
I'm kind of getting myself.
But middle school was a time, atransition, where, like I wasn't
really owning up to like allthe success that everyone
thought that I was going to haveRight, so I was finding myself
just like in tight matches withlike weird people, I wasn't

(23:12):
progressing.
I was finding myself worriedabout making weight all the time
.
I wrestled for a travel teamcalled Delta force and that was
a big uh travel team that Iwould, you know, compete with.
And, uh, shane Griffith was onmy team actually a couple of
miles team and that was thetimeframe where I was still
trying to like really see if Iwas any good.
Um, I actually wanted to like,really like give it up a couple

(23:34):
of times in middle school.
I wanted to ride bikes and havefun and just like enjoy myself
and that's, and that's kind of.
I was in a weird transitionperiod where I was just.
I was in a weird transitionperiod where I was good enough
but I also was struggling toalso have passion, because I've
done it since I was four yearsold.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, right, right.
So we get to see you guys ascollege wrestlers.
We watch you as you're gettingready for a match and you see
you guys doing your certainthings that you do every day.
Not every wrestler hassuperstitions, but you
definitely have habits, right?
Sure, were you starting togather?
We'll say gather.
Were you starting to gatherhabits along the way of?

(24:09):
I did this the last time, helpme.
Was it pacing, was it music?
What were you starting to kindof gather as a young wrestler,
as you're coming up, findingyour groove, because there's
certain little things that setyou up mentally, right, I mean
just for the positive directionof whatever a weekend brings,
you try to.
I need to have these socksalong, I gotta have these shoes
along, I need to have theseheadgear.

(24:30):
What were you building?

Speaker 3 (24:31):
little things like that as you're going along so
like that's kind of fastforwarding a little bit in
middle school like not notreally like I didn't I wasn't
really personally developing.
I wasn't like having like what Icall like a champion mindset,
like on and off the mat, on andoff off the field, whatever
you're doing, like you know,building that like character
within yourself, like in middleschool, like I was dabbling, I

(24:51):
was having fun, I was figuringout who I was like really just
kind of having.
Um, I wasn't dedicating myselfto the sport, that's for sure.
That's kind of where, you know,I, I, I went into into freshman
year of high school and I sawthe downfall.
I was having tight matches withkids that weren't really top
level and then I was strugglingto beat those guys that were in

(25:13):
that state tournament.
So I found myself going 0-2 atstates.
Actually, I'm sorry, I didn'teven make it to states.
My freshman year I beat thenumber one seed at Regents.
His name is Johnny Gentile.
He was a wrestler for Paulsboroand his brother went and
wrestled for ruckers.
But he was a really toughnumber one seed.
I beat him, upset him the firstround and then ended up losing
my way out of regions.

(25:33):
Didn't even make it to states.
My freshman year, um, sophomoreyear, I, I didn't.
I went oh and two.
I made his estates but went 0-2.
And that's when my dad and mypeople around me were like Mike,
you're at the point whereyou're a sophomore in high
school and you're not doinganything.

(25:56):
So what's going on?
Like where do we go from here?
Like where do we go from here?
And after my sophomore year ofhigh school, I basically got
coerced into flying across thecountry and attending a military
boot camp.
It was a wrestling boot camp,intensive boot camp, and I'm

(26:19):
sure you know it.
It's called.
J Robinson Camp and my dadbasically.
Basically, he was like dude,you gotta go do this.
And I was like like nah, likeI'm good, whatever.
And he and he bribed me with alittle bit of money to to go to
this camp and was like yo, ifyou get the I did it shirt at
the end, then you'll get themoney.
So I was like you know what?

(26:40):
All right, let's do it.
So me and my brother.
We went to, we flew to minnesotaand like it's like 90 to 100
degree heat and we went 30 daysat the jay robinson boot camp.
Uh, it was like, um, you know,six days a week, um, you know,
really just crazy workouts, umthere was tons of training and
you know, like I said, there wasjust a lot going on at that, at

(27:02):
that camp.
So a lot.
Yeah, it was, it was.
It was pretty insane.
They would, like you know, giveyou negatives If, like you,
didn't have your shoes tied, youdidn't show up at 6.00 AM with
your shirt tucked in, oranything like that.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Um so I guess Robinson didn't mess around too
much back then.
Huh Stories are true.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, no, it was, it was a big deal.
And, um, you know, so me and myStories are true the young, um,
the younger brother, that waslike no, let's do it, let's go.
Um, we stayed, we, we stayedfor the 30 days, we ran the 15
miles at the end of the, at theend of the camp, and we
developed some really, reallygood habits.
Um, you know, we, we, wefinally were like okay, this is
what hard work is, this is whatit's going to take at the next
level.
So we started to like actually,um, put in the work and feel
like, okay, you know, we'reputting in the work, we're
feeling like, you know, thiscould be something.
And, uh, I think it reallypropelled me to do something
great.
The next season I uh, junioryear, I took fifth in the state

(28:10):
and then, senior year, I tooksecond.
So, like you know, started, uh,started, a run for me.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
So that's that's interesting, that the in it's
always kind of a differentconcept of of trying to figure
out.
You know, especially whenyou're a teenager trying to
figure out exactly what you wantto do.
Right now we're in therecruiting process with Liam 17,
16, 17.
These kids are as kids.
I mean, you guys are puttingsome high pressure situations
with just the sport itself.

(28:38):
And now you're talking abouttrying to.
You know, everybody's asking youwhat's your gig?
What's your gig?
You go to this camp and boom,kicks in the ass and you're
ready to roll and obviouslythere's things going to work out
.
But you now have this, you know, have this vision in your head
of what you want to do finally.
So you see what it takes, yousee how hard you can, you know,

(28:58):
work and put yourself throughthings like that.
Did that really?
Did that really kind of turneverything around for you, just
mentally, even as you got intocollege?
Once you're starting to kind ofget away from the high school
scene and and with that beingsaid, was the high school
experience then, from that, thatpoint on um, a little more
focused for you?

Speaker 3 (29:18):
definitely yeah.
My junior year is when Idecided in my mind, um, that I
wanted to be a division onecollege wrestler, right, and I
think that's one of the biggestthings that someone who's you
know, a high schooler, anathlete, or someone that just
wants to achieve like somethinggreat in their life is that you
have to finally decide like,okay, this is what I'm going to
do, and like, this is the goalthat I want to chase after,

(29:38):
right.
So I think that's like thebiggest thing.
It's like, okay, what do youwant to do, what do you want to
be good at?
And like, how am I going to dothis?

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, yeah, and then giving giving the background
that you had and then, now thatyou've been given the tools, you
know as far as just what youfound yourself going through and
being able to put yourselfthrough, it's big.
I mean I remember trying totrain for soccer.
I mean I walked into, walk onlike tryouts, really not doing
much and that was ridiculous,like I should have done more,
but I still.
I got through three days oftryouts and I got through three

(30:09):
days of getting slammed upagainst the wall by you know 18
and 19 year olds and I'm 20, 21,just like still smoking and
getting out of the bar, likethat's what I was.
But I still had a goal and Iknew I was going to do it and I
I literally I thought I wasgoing to die at the end because
I shouldn't have been doing whatI was doing.
But you almost died at a camp.
Because I know that those J Robcamps are not fun and I know

(30:30):
that they will.
They will work you to death.
It's in.
There's a reason I don't thinkthey do those anymore.
I think they close those downnow.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
They did thing that I did, right, it trained my mind
to like, um, because when Istarted my junior year season
right, I knew I wanted to tryand be a division one wrestler
and I was the guy that wascutting 20, 25, even like 30
pounds in high school, right, um, it was brutal.
So what I had to do is I had togo uh, you know, I went through
a full day of school barely,and you know, trying to do this
thing, and then I would go towrestle, wrestling practice and
we would do like hour, hour anda half hard goes.
We had a division one collegecoach, you know.
So it was, it was a seriousroom, right, and after that what

(31:11):
I would do is I would go home,I wouldn't even, I would kind of
grow Sometimes I wouldn't evenshower.
I'd go home, I'd put on plasticsweats and I'd go and run six
miles and that was just like tomake weight every single day and
like it was insane, like itprobably wasn't good for, like
you know, like health orlongevity or whatever, like I

(31:34):
knew that I wanted to, like Iwanted to be great and like for
me to like wrestle up a weightclass or like just try and like
half half ass, it really is likethat's not going to get you to
where you want to be.
So I dedicated myself to godown a weight class where I knew
that I could, you know, goahead and be competitive in the
state tournament.
So, yeah, that's.
That's kind of where the workethic started.

(31:55):
I was like six miles a day,practice run, lifts, like all
that stuff, every single day,without barely eating.
It taught me crazy, crazymindset stuff that still, you
know, helps me today and youwere reminding yourself to do
those things at that point.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Right, it wasn't.
It wasn't dad coming to yourdoor, knocking on it and saying
hey, it's 5 am time to go run.
You're gonna run your own doingthat.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
That reminds me of actually a story real quick yeah
, no, yeah, hell yeah we won allthose, yeah, yeah.
So there was a funny.
There was a funny point in myhigh school career where I had
one of the biggest matches of mycareer coming up Right and you
know he was, he was ranked liketop in the state and you know we
had a home match.
It was dead winter time and Iactually got sick.

(32:39):
You know, I I got like like astrep throat.
There was like white, liketonsils, like terrible.
I I got like like a strepthroat.
There was like white, liketonsils like terrible, really
blown up, could barely evenswallow, um, but I had to
wrestle, you know, and that wasgoing to give me a ranking for
States.
So what I did was I toughenedup and I the worst part is is

(32:59):
that when you're sick and youhave to cut weight, it makes the
weight cut like extremelydifficult, like because you
can't drink water.
How are you going to?
You know what I mean.
You're sick, you're supposed tobe hydrated.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Everything you need Exactly.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
Yeah.
So I was dead on the couch andI was deciding if I wanted to
wrestle.
Um, you know, and just likethere's that mindset thing,
right, it's like it clicks in,it tells you to just get up and
go.
So I went downstairs and I ransix miles with trash bags on
while my tonsils were fullyswollen to the gills.
I couldn't even swallow, mike,good lord, it was so bad and I

(33:35):
went on and I went on and I wonthe match and I set the tone for
that year.
So it's just funny that yousaid that no one was pushing me.
My parents were actuallytelling me Mikey, slow down,
you're good.
Maybe just take off for theweek, just relax.
Just you're good, you know.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
But it's amazing to see that transformation.
Right Like you.
Like you were talking aboutseventh, eighth grade You're
like you're getting beat by guys, even your freshman year, that
you probably shouldn't have been.
Yeah, and you really startingto.
And Liam's getting there too.
I noticed the similarities herebecause he's really starting to
do things that he didn't dobefore.

(34:11):
And you're like, oh, there mustbe things starting to fire
properly.
And now you're starting to takecare of things.
So, with that, as you grew intothat junior year, were you in
the frame of mind where you'relike I'm going to go to college
and wrestle.
This is what I want to do.
I want to.
I don't know where I want to go, but I'm definitely going to
college and wrestling.
What?
Where did you start?
Having that thought start tospin around your mind?

Speaker 3 (34:35):
um, really, it was after the j-rob camp when I was
like you know what I put so muchinto this already.
It's been my whole lifecompeting like I gotta actually
try and make something happen.
I got two years left and thisis the time for college you know
, coaches to come and startrecruiting and start to do
things.
So there's no other option butfor me to, like, go full force
in the sport.

(34:55):
You know, um, and just and justtry, try and take over and make
something of myself, becausetime was ticking.
You know, oh, and don't make itthe state's freshman year.
You're oh and two, and then,you know, you're set in this
timeline where you're like, okay, it's either go or don't go.
And, um, I started just lookingat colleges.
My brother, um, you know, he wasin that weird frame where he

(35:16):
took fourth in the state.
He lost to David McFadden in thesemifinals.
Um, you know, know, and justlike you know, he had some tough
matches and things and but,like you know, he didn't really
go ahead and get like a crazyscholarship or anything and it
put him in like a tight spotwhere, like he didn't
necessarily know where to go.
Um, and right at the right time.
Ruckers came in at the very endand just offered him like a
decent amount to try and get himthere and uh, that's when he

(35:39):
went and and actually, uh, youknow, went to ruckers and like I
saw that, and I'm, like youknow, went to Rutgers and like I
saw that and I'm like you knowwhat, I'm going to try and get
my competitive edge.
I was like, dude, I got to getmore money, I got to try and get
a full ride, like you know whatI mean.
I got to go and like I want tolike do that.
So I had my eyes set on Rutgerspretty early on in my junior
year season and at Seagulls, youknow, like that would come in

(36:01):
every Thursday, like Ryder, likeyou know Ohio state, like, so I
met all of the coaches, um, youknow, during my high school.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
So it started to turn and started to be like okay,
like yeah.
So I want to.
I want to give a little propsto Seagulls man, because they
sound like they knew what thehell they were doing.
You know, having college guyscoming in Cause they knew that
high school guys were in theroom, they wanted to get them
the exposure and even being ablejust to have those contacts.
That's amazing, right there tobe able to have that a coach in
the room that can bring guys inlike that and they understand

(36:32):
that this room is doingsomething.
So that was kind of where I was.
I was kind of curious, becauseyou're from a town of like 4 000
.
Like how does, how does thatshit happen?
Like how do you know where to?
Obviously you can, you can, youknow, obviously shop yourself
out and be like, hey, coach, Igot this, you know, I don't know
, it was a dvd at the time, oryou can send them.
You send them a video, you knowand and get things out there.

(36:53):
But being that you had such agreat club that was involved,
like that, and being able tohave coaches involved like that,
that that kind of answers thequestion for me, because I was
like man.
Man, how did you get noticed byyou know Rutgers?
Obviously, you were a finalistat the state tournament, took
fifth year before, but at thesame time, though, too, it's
just the think of the talentpool that comes out of that,

(37:14):
just that area, jersey,pennsylvania, and stuff like
that to just be able to makethat spark that's.
That's another great story initself.
So, as you're, as you're goingthrough, and you're kind of
getting into your junior year,were you getting contacted uh,
into your junior year, bycolleges?
By that time, even with becauseyou've been going around the
country and not just competingin high school but doing other

(37:35):
things were you gettingcontacted by your junior year,
by colleges?

Speaker 3 (37:39):
um, not necessarily.
I had, like I had had priorrelationships with Rutgers
because of my brother competingand stuff, but not not so much
Princeton.
I remember Joe Dubuque is thehead coach now for for Princeton
but I remember him being in theroom and I was like yo, I want

(38:00):
to wrestle, you Like let's go.
Like yo, I want to wrestle, youLike let's go.
And you know, I hit him with aninside trip and took him down
and he was like yo, come here.
And he took me to the side ofthe mat and was like you want to
wrestle at college, you want towrestle division one?
I was like, yeah, he's like allright, what's your grades like?
And I was like they're prettyaverage.
And he's like, all right, let'scheck it out.
Cause he was like that wasanother you know college that

(38:23):
came in and wanted you know toto recruit me but like, yeah, it
wasn't, it wasn't a crazyamount of colleges and, like I
said, I really didn't see crazysuccess until like my senior
year, yep.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yep, and we're going to roll into that, that's for
sure.
We're going to be talking aboutthat because knowing again just
the mindset that where thatchange came, you know things
happen a little bit later.
Whether you peak your senioryear or peak your freshman year
in college, you know it's aeveryone's different, everyone's
made different, everyonedevelops differently.
But as your senior year camearound, did you?

(38:54):
Was there a noticeable changelike where was the biggest
change in weight that you had asa, as a wrestler?
Did that come like eighth gradeto freshman year?
When did what?
Did a big weight change happenfor you?

Speaker 3 (39:04):
what do you mean?
Weight change?

Speaker 2 (39:05):
so, like as you're coming in, let's say you're an
80 pound for you know, eighthgrader.
Where did you start out then?
Freshman year were 135 pounds.
Like how did?
How did your ascend up to theweight class you're at?
Was it just kind of gradual?

Speaker 3 (39:17):
you didn't have any big leaps yeah, no, I was pretty
gradual, I did.
Uh, it was 112.
Oh wait, I don't even know if Iwas 120, 126, 132, 138.
That's how my college seasonwent okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
So then, as you're, as you're working through your
senior year, obviously you'regetting more contacts where.
What was your mind frame as faras where you like liam right
now is, there's a lot ofcolleges like you.
Obviously, as a kid growing up,he had one favorite college or
whatever it is.
But yeah, as you're becomingmore of a man, what are your
thoughts in your head of, like,uh, I want to go to california
and wrestle, you know did?

(39:53):
Did you have thoughts of likeother places, just to kind of
spread your wings a little more?
What were your thoughts as asenior and you're, and you're
starting to kind of go throughthe, the deeper process of
recruiting?

Speaker 3 (40:01):
yeah, so I really only have my eyes set on Rutgers
or Princeton or somewhere alongthe Northeast Strip.
If you want me to be honestwith you, rutgers was really.
I knew I wanted to go, likeRussell, with my brother, and I
knew it was an upcoming programand that's what I wanted.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
It's not a bad it.
It's not a bad it at all.
I mean, that's a good school.
You know, there's nothing,anthony Ashnell.
Uh, we'll talk about Nick.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Siriano.
Actually, they were coming in,like you know, as I was well,
ashnell came in as I was readyto go.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
So, like you know what was it?
Junior year, senior year,senior Um, basically, what
happened was is I started goingto like NHS CAs and flow
wrestling.
Oh yeah yeah, they had acountrywide tournament and they
were back to back weeks.

(40:58):
So I was like, oh my God, likewhat do I do?
So my dad was like like, uh,let's do both.
And I was like, okay, so Iended up going to nhsca's and I
lost like my second match in andthen wrestled all the way back
to fifth and then I uh, that waslike exciting for me.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
I'm like oh yeah, hell yeah oh my god, like that's
crazy.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
And then uh flew right from that tournament to
flow wrestling.
Yep.
And I lost an early round,wrestled all the way back to
fifth again.
Um, so that was like you know,like that's really what like
brought in my reach is like fora college athlete like get out
there, compete.
Like don't even care if youlose, like that's.
The scary part, obviously, is Ididn't want to go to these

(41:44):
nationwide tournaments and goand lose, like that's not the
case, right, but at the sametime, it's like nothing is ever
going to happen if you don't goout and compete.
Like lose now, like lose as ayoung kid.
Like go and just lose and riskit because, like man, you got
all the time in the world and ifyou're not going after
something, you're not riskingsomething like you're, you're
just never going to go and likeachieve something you know

(42:06):
greater in your life.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
And that goes for like anything in life, I feel
yeah yeah, I think it was a john, did julius just put something
out he had.
He was at a, he was at a campand talking about how to kids,
about embrace the loss, embracethe, the, the, I guess, the
agony of it because it's it'sall worth it right now and it's
hard to tell a kid that right,it's hard to, it's hard to tell
any kid that even even as a highschooler coming up and you're

(42:29):
trying to get to some place,that you just didn't get to hard
to say that and hard for themto get to realize it.
And then now you know, and liamis starting to realize that at
16 and 17 and as you grow andyou develop as a person and
you're in, you're inviting thatgrind after a while, you're
bringing it into your, into yourworld.
Did you?
Did you find any type of umstruggles, which I'm sure just

(42:52):
about everybody does?
But going from that high schoolinto college, um, I guess the
the real question is what wasthe balance like for you between
education and wrestling?
How, how were you able to dothat?
So did you ever struggleschool-wise when you left for?
When you left for tournamentsin high school and you know,
obviously it's not easy.
Liam left for estonia for twoweeks.

(43:13):
That kind of screwed him upgrade-wise.
It wasn't fun.
But then transitioning intocollege, was your high school
experience easier,education-wise, than it was then
going into college?
Obviously college is harder,but some guys are smart.
I mean some.
I mean some guys can carry thatwell, you know.
And you're going to Rutgers,which is not a dumb school.
So how was that?
How was that balance for youbetween education and wrestling?
Did one obviously take a littlemore of a of a precedence for

(43:36):
you.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
Yeah, a hundred percent, wrestling took a
precedence.
Athletics in general took aprecedence in my life.
And know I, I don't know, likeschool, to be honest with you,
like I did enough to get by inhigh school, like I just like
b's, c's, maybe one a and jim orsomething like that, but like
you know, it wasn't I didn'tlike have too crazy of a focus
on it.
Um, and you know, maybe that'swhy I ended up not going to

(44:00):
princeton.
Who knows, maybe, maybe, maybeit was a good thing.
But, um, yeah, like wrestlingdefinitely took a precedence and
I think it maybe worked out forme just in the sense that I
ended up getting pretty muchlike a full ride through
athletics.
So it kind of worked out yeah,you know what I mean um yeah, it
was just like, you know, goingafter school getting what I had

(44:20):
to get done and and and doingthe thing, and, you know, making
sure that you graduate.
That that's really what ittakes Cause in school it's like
even in school I look back athigh school nowadays like what
you learn, like like it's superimportant, like I'm not like
anti-school, but at the sametime, I know exactly where
you're going.
Yeah, it's like I'm, I'mlearning things that aren't

(44:48):
necessarily going to apply to myjob or apply to these things.
And sure, like the disciplines,like you know, after school
going and getting your homeworkdone, and like doing all these
things like builds disciplineand builds all these things.
But really it's like man, liketell me what I learned in high
school.
I don't really know man, likeyou know.
So, like do what you can.
Like pass, pass the grades, getwhat you got done, and you know
, focus on what's going to getyou as an individual to the next
level.
Like, is it athlete, is it likea business?
Is it you?
You know, cause you know,obviously there's a lot of
athletes that listen to this.

(45:08):
But it's like you know, focuson, like, what your strengths
are and double down on those andlike figure a way to get
through those things, cause Imean, really that's the key,
obviously.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Yeah, big time.
And kid, you know, that's justwhat he is and and we're there's
and, like you said, there's.
No, it's not that peopleshouldn't be paying attention to
education like that's his, heknows he has to get that even
going into college, like that'sthe end goal, to have something,
a piece of paper, to hold on toand be like look, I can do it,
guys.
That just makes you a littlemore you, you know, employable.

Speaker 3 (45:44):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
When you got into college, did you find it was?
Because I'm hearing differentstories.
So some guys will say, well,when I went into college cause I
mean, obviously it depends onwhat your major is and things
like that but some guys aresaying, man, I was a 4.0 student
in high school, but college Iwas like 3.2, you know that kind
of thing, I was just partying.
There's a lot of differentvariables that now you kids are

(46:07):
put in front of.
Did you find the distractionsgoing into college to be
challenging once you got there,to be able to focus on practice
school and things like that?

Speaker 3 (46:16):
So it's funny, I actually, you know, I got by in
high school and then, when I gotto college, I was so afraid to
fail oh, yeah, I was so afraidthat I wasn't going to.
Yeah, I was so afraid to failthat I ended up getting a 4.0
GPA as a freshman and that, likeyou know, it set the standard.

(46:40):
You know what I say.
I say a first impression islike the most important thing.
It lasts forever, right?
So, you know, going intocollege as an athlete, you know
having all these high endcoaches looking at me, right, I
wanted to go in there and proveto myself, to prove to them,
prove to everyone, like how I'mcoming in, how I'm setting the
tone, right?
So I came in, I was so afraidthat, like, oh my God, like what

(47:00):
if I don't get good grades?
Oh, like what if I'm not ableto compete or wrestle?
Like all those things weregoing through my mind that I
ended up getting a 4.0 GPA myfreshman year.
And then, to be honest with you,it went downhill after that.
Like I just did enough to to,you know, get by and get my
degree and all that stuff.
But like, yeah, and to talkabout distractions too, like in
college, like there's so manydistractions right, there's

(47:22):
there's parties, there's there'sdrinking, there's uh, you know,
wrestling in general, like awayfrom school you could call it a
distraction because of how muchlike you have to do, right, um,
you have to be wrestling, youhave to be training, you have to
be doing all these things,right.
So it's like, um, yeah, I wouldsay it's probably harder right
there, and then this educationis harder.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
All that's harder, yeah, but it depends on how you
want to come in, and, yeah, it'sa mindset thing, right you?
What you're going to apply,your apply yourself to and what
you aren't going to applyyourself to, I think.
I think there's a lot that canget lost in into what a kid's
expectations of what collegeshould be, and then they get
there and get a little surprised, and I mean, we've seen guys
that struggle, you know.
We've seen guys that had a hardtime just to be able to make
that transition, which, I mean,it is what it is.

(48:07):
At the same point, though, too,when, when you got into college
and and you started wrestlingfor Rutgers, I mean, was what
that?
Here's, the here's, thequestion is, when you got there
Olympic teams, world teams wasthat ever on your brain, or was
NCAAs what you were thinkingabout?

Speaker 3 (48:24):
For sure it was on my mind.
I was a very good freestylewrestler.
I loved throws, I lovedexposure.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
You do love throws?
Yes.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
Yeah, Love all the weird stuff, Right.
So I got in like I was.
I was one of the few that werevery high on freestyle, on
competitive like trying tocompete um in the off
tournaments, and that's actuallyone of the, you know, like I
had a lot of success.
I beat like Kevin Jack he wasNCAA finalist beat Ashnell.
I ended up upsetting him.

(48:51):
My freshman year of it was likeredshirt freshman year.
Into the summer season.
I ended up, you know, takinghim out at a tournament and like
that was like okay, that wasbig.
That was like I just took outan all-american, like like you
know what I mean, like that wasa big deal.
So, yeah, freestyle was hugefor me.
I always wanted to like try andcompete on the world level, the
senior level, all that stuff.

(49:12):
So I was heavy into thefreestyle tournaments in college
okay, I just a question on itwhere what was?

Speaker 2 (49:19):
probably?
Because I looked through Ididn't see a whole lot.
They didn't list a lot offreestyle, but I didn't see a
ton of freestyle listed with youwhat were some of the bigger?
What were some of the biggertournaments that you went to in
college for freestyle?
Us Opens, things like that?

Speaker 3 (49:33):
yeah, it was really just was the US Open, it was, um
, it was that tournament, uh,for the qualifier to.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
To try, if you want it, you would oh, yeah, yeah,
yep, like puts you on top yeah,I would.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
I would.
I would try and compete thereall the time.
It's funny, I'd always get tothe semis and then lose.
And it was just the pressureright, you put on yourself, you
put on it is yourself to win andand all that stuff.
So it all plays a factor.
Um had some success, butobviously didn't wasn't winning
the tournaments and and reallycompeting on that national level
like I really wanted to.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
But so you never took .
You never took the Greco huh,even with your cause.
You, I think you really likedthat underhook, don't you?

Speaker 3 (50:08):
Oh the overhook, yeah the overhook.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
The overhook.
Yeah, not the underhook.
Yeah the overhook.
So why Greco?
Never really translated for you.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
Well, cause I knew that I always wanted to compete
on the freestyle circuit.
I just thought that if Idoubled down on freestyle then
it would pay off.
It's weird I never, ever,wrestled like Greco.
I've never practiced Greco.
I don't even know the rule setto Greco.
Oh shit, I mean I know youcan't like, that's still cool.

(50:36):
I'm amazed you can't touchtheir leg and you have to only
throw an exposure and stuff.
I'm pretty coolest when itcomes to greco.
So I just thought I doubleddown on freestyle and and tried
to make it happen.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
I wanted to you know, that's what I wanted to do your
upper body did include a lot oflegs I mean, I'm not gonna lie
about that, let you know tripsand things like that, or even
just a leg lock to get a guythrown, so it.
It was just kind of odd.
I was like man, he really likesthe upper body stuff.
I was so surprised he neverreally took a greco that much,
but there's not a lot of grecoguys coming out of jersey
anytime soon, if you know whatI'm saying.

(51:07):
So as as you, as you got intocollege, you're wrestling your
freshman and sophomore year.
I mean you did, you were doingsome pretty, pretty decent uh,
pretty decent your your redshirtfreshman year.
What was that like for you?
That getting that exposure tothose guys now and being able to
just kind of bang with collegeguys and being able to really
compete, was that, was that redshirt season, detrimental to you

(51:30):
?
detrimental yeah uh.
Yeah, bad word was that wasthat, was that uh season, I
guess uh beneficial to you yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
So my red shirt freshman year was was huge, huge
.
Um, I came in blazing, I camein hot and the reason why I
think it was beneficial wasbecause I didn't come in
pressured to feel like I had tobe the starter.
Anthony Ashnault was the one,41 pounder, um, there was, you
know, some studs all up and downthe weight, uh, weight class
and um, so I didn't really havethe pressure to come in and,

(52:02):
like you know, try and be thestarter.
So it really took the pressureoff me to come in and learn and
be better and just like competewith all the guys that were
starters.
There was no pressure to me totry and compete, so I came in
red hot.
I was wrestling national toe totoe.
Remember we had like one matchwhere it was like four, three in
the whole team like all wowed,like he probably got nervous.

(52:25):
He was like like oh, you knowwhat I mean some freshman kid
coming in and wrestling a youknow all-american, you know four
to three, like that's a bigdeal, you know.
Um, I remember after thepractice, goody, uh, coach
goodell was like you see thisguy, he's like a dog on a bone,
you know what I mean?
Just like continually goingright.
I ended up also in tons oftournaments.
Uh, my redshirt freshman yearhad had a lot of matches ended
up yeah, ended up placing acouple times and wrestling like

(52:49):
some really good guys.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Um third place at the shorty hitchcock memorial
classic yeah got uh, lock havenclassic title at 141.
Yeah, um finished his runner upat the jonathan callos bearcat
open.
Yeah, yep.
And then the East StroudsburgUniversity Open in your first
career tournament.
That's pretty decent, man.
When you're winning tournamentslike that, that's pretty good

(53:11):
as a redshirt.
I mean you're no sludge.
And plus, the other thing toois you're wrestling in your Big
Ten.
I mean hey, so to be doing that?
That was to me.
I guess that's another kind ofquestion of confidence.
Was that helping you then buildon?
As you got further in?
I mean, you took, what was thatthird at Big Tens?
I mean, dude, you were doing.

(53:33):
It seemed like you were justkind of climbing and climbing
and just kind of doing the thingthat you do.
So what were your thoughts asyou kind of got deeper into
college?
Were you thinking about I'mgoing to try and make a couple
of runs after the?
You know my college career isdone.
Or were you like, once collegeis done, I'm probably just going
to, I'm good?
When did you kind of find inyour head that you weren't going
to wrestle anymore?

Speaker 3 (53:56):
That's a that's a big question.
I kind of want to maybe likerevert back a little bit onto
like my experiences in collegeand like climbing that ladder
you were talking about, you know.
So it's like, you know, aftermy freshman year I had, you know
, success and all that stuff,but that's after.
That's really when I started tostruggle.
Um, if you look back, uh, mysophomore year and my or my

(54:17):
redshirt sophomore and redshirtjunior year were, were pretty
tough.
Um, my sophomore year, I foundmyself in the middle of a weight
class.
I was 170 something in the offseason and Ashnell decided to go
149.
It was his last year where hewon the NCAA title and I, you

(54:37):
know, I had thoughts of goingand trying and competing against
him.
And then I had other thoughtswhere, oh, maybe I'll just cut
down to 141 and just like I'llbe bigger, I'll be stronger,
I'll go ahead and do it.
My brother was 157.
So I was caught in this weirdweight class, right.
So I decided to cut from like170, 175, maybe down to 141.
It started way back into summerinto, uh, to summer.

(55:01):
What happened was after my, myregular freshman year, my real
truth, my real freshman year,yeah, I had actually had a good
year starting of my freshmanyear.
I I went and competed.
I made it to big tens.
Um, I lost through big tens andI didn't make it to nationals,
but I was competitive againstthose high level people.
Um.
So after that is when I startedto struggle because I had to go

(55:23):
back down to 141 again, I wentfrom.
So after my 141 college careerthat's my favorite story I
wrestled at big tens, didn'tmake it to nationals.
My mindset was all messed up.
I was like dang, I just likecompeted.
I lost my chance to go tonationals.
So what I did was is I went ona food bender is what some of
these wrestlers would call it.

(55:43):
I just went and ate everythingpossible.
I was eating cookies and cream,milkshakes, I was consuming
hoagies and pizzas and ice creamand candies all day.
I was just like low on life.
So I would just play fortnightall day and I would just eat
crap and I wasn't getting sun, Iwasn't doing anything.
And next thing, you know, twoweeks later, I hit 180 and my

(56:03):
body looked super inflamed, holyshit, super inflamed.
I went from 141 to 180.
Oh my God.
And my body just was in totaltotal shock, and that's when I
started to actually have somehealth problems.
I went to the doctor and I likefelt like my heart beating
pretty hard.
I just like I was out of breath.
I had headaches.
I was like just was out ofbreath, I had headaches, like

(56:24):
just like not feeling good, um,so they ended up.
I went to go get a physical andthey were just like ah, I don't
know, I'm going to, I'm goingto send you to the, to the, to
the hospital, just to make sureeverything's good.
And I was like what, likefreaking out.
I was like you, serious, so Iwas scared to death.
Um, you know, I I went to thehospital.

(56:46):
They had all these EKGs on myheart and on my chest and
everything, and like they werelike, oh, like you're good, but
like I would definitely starttrying to, like you know, live
like healthier, like maybe yougot to drop weight because my I
went from one 41 to one 80, likemy blood pressure, everything
was probably out of control.
So that, uh, it took me about aweek until I found out about
this whole holistic health thing.
I started researching anddiving deep into like health, um

(57:09):
, and I found out upon like thisweird diet called the alkaline
vegan diet and overnight I wentvegan and I was like total vegan
.
Total, like not even half andhalf in my coffee, like that's
how vegan I was.
I was like I was like you know,meat and milk is bad.
All of these you know foods arejust terrible.

(57:30):
Cause of how bad I felt, I wasconvinced.
I was like okay, this is, allof this is crap.
So I went vegan overnight and Istayed, uh, stayed vegan all
throughout the summer.
That's when I knew I was likedude, I got to get my weight
down because I'm going 141 nextyear again, and all summer I was
totally vegan.
I actually went raw vegan.
There was a point where I wasonly eating fruit all day until

(57:51):
dinner and then I'd have like araw salad with avocados and nuts
and some dressing, but that'sit.
I was competing in training andlike I was fully, fully vegan.
And I made it to about the fallseason right, where I got my
weight under control, I foundout actually how to lose weight.
I was like, wow, I just wentfrom 180 to 141.

(58:13):
And I found like the ultimatehack and I swear like that diet
and all these little hacks thatI found were like some of the
things that athletes, allathletes, should know is like
all of these things that Istarted to learn.
I started to dive down intolike the body and like
supplements and holistic healthand teas and herbal tinctures
and like you know why?
Why would fruit weigh so muchmore but make you lose so much
weight?

(58:33):
Well, one, it's super high inwater contents, so it just
cleans out everything in yourbody and starts to refresh your
body.
So all of these little thingsthat started to play into my
mind.
Right, I was like I thoughtthat I was fully on the right
path, right?
So fall season comes around andI get to.
You know I'm down to weight.
I hit like one 50,.
You know, fully vegan and I'mlike, oh my God, I have like

(58:54):
nine pounds to go.
I thought this was going to beeasy.
Yeah, so I started to struggle.
You know I was making weightevery week.
September, october, I think,like November timeframe was when
I started to compete attournaments, um, and there was
someone in my weight class namedPete LaPari.
He was a guy that, um, you know, I beat him every single time.

(59:14):
I never lost to him.
But there was a point where I,like, he was started to compete
really hard cause he saw mestruggling to make weight, so he
was like, oh, like, likethey're gonna be a chance for me
to start, you know we're gonnaedge yeah yeah.
So I got to the midlandstournament and I got totally,
totally destroyed.
Dude, like there's a fullcomparison where my I won the

(59:38):
first match.
Second match I wrestled michaelblockus.
Right, he was in college and Iwas a little bit, I was one year
older or whatever.
This was back in my career.
I ended up wrestling him in theBig Ten bronze medal match to
play third in the country.
Rewind back to the Midlandssophomore redshirt, sophomore
year I got my ass handed to.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Yeah, I think you had three wins at the Mid, at the
Midlands, or something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Maybe that year, but I, I lost, I didn't even place
and um, I ended up thattournament.
That's when I gave him my spot,I was like.
I was like, um, not right away.
I ended up for the first timeafter over a year.
Um, I ate meat, I ate meat andnext thing, you know, know, my
body goes up to like 158, 160and I'm like dude, I'm not

(01:00:28):
making 141, like dude, this is,this is done, like this is done.
So, um, I ended up basicallygiving up my spot that year and,
uh, packing it in for the yearwhich was man so that's got to
be rough.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
So when you we talk about the, you know cause you
had your, you had your downright, your, your your food
binging on whatever found yourway.
You're getting a couple thingsfigured out here and there and
then, with that, did that, didthat feel deflating?
No, was that, was that justsomething where it set you back
a little bit?
But obviously you have amindset.
You're there at Rutgers, youhave a good, good support system

(01:01:03):
.
It's not like it was just aI'll give up kind of thing.
But like man, what the fuck amI gonna do here?
Because, like, this is getting,it's getting out of hand.
Where did you really findyourself?
Just kind of having to kind ofbuckle up again and get back to
that mental mind state of like,hey look, I can do this, because
I mean there's no, there's noreal lows at the end here for
you to me, I mean you're talkingabout losses and stuff, but

(01:01:23):
again, they all led to something, right, they all, they all got
you to something.
So how did your, how did youfeel like you ended up like when
you wrap up your college career?
How do you feel about it?

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Wrapping up my college career.
I mean it was a perfect story.
I mean like being from you knowsome kid who wasn't a blue chip
recruit.
You know, I wasn't the mosttalented, I didn't come in with
all the all the wins I Istruggled, I had I had some
minor successes and I juststayed the course.
And then at the very, very,very end of my career, when I

(01:01:54):
had my career on the line um andthat's the story that we can
get into Um I pulled out thebiggest one of my life and then
rattled off like six wins in myin my career and like placed
third in the country.
But you know it was funny, likeafter that sophomore year, yeah,
it was deflating and I and Ididn't know what was next.
I was, like you know, trying tofigure it all out and after
that year I went from 141 to 157.

(01:02:16):
I bumped up two weight classesand had an average career
average.
I had a pretty good year.
I beat a ranked guy in my firstmatch.
I had a pretty decent career at157.
What happened at 157 was I hadan average year.
I didn't qualify for nationals.
So I went into the Big Tentournament which was at Rutgers
that year it and um, you know, Iactually defeated, I actually

(01:02:47):
beat and uh, revenged all mylosses at the big 10 tournament
from that year at 157 these guyswere bigger than me, man, I, I
was, I was not a true 157pounder um, and you know, I
ended up placing I think it waslike uh, fifth um, I think
seventh um, I'm not too sure?

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
no, I'm looking at it's.
There's just a lot of.
I'm probably gonna mess it upwhen I read here, but I think it
was something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Yeah, it was 57, I ended up taking uh seventh at
the big ten tournament, whichthen got me an automatic bid to
nationals yes and guess what,how crazy is this?
This is the craziest time of mylife 157.
I spend 20 years of my lifetrying to make the ncaa
tournament right, finally makeit out of weight class.
You know, like that I probablyshouldn't have been at, but I
make it to the NCAA tournament.

(01:03:29):
Covid cancels the NCAAtournament three days before I
get there.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
Every guy I interviewed, this COVID shit.
I tell you what smackseverybody in the face, man.
So let's talk about that,because that was so obviously
what.
How did that hit you?
I mean, we had I'm talking toguys that especially doing
interviews that they're talkingabout.
You know, teammates are out inthe gym crying.
You know, like I mean this isyou guys work your lives for

(01:03:59):
this stuff and boom, not done.
You guys are done, not, notgoing to wrestle, not going to
do it.
Yeah, none, I mean COVID, covid,that's what you guys get.
So what was, what was the?
What was the temperature in theroom when that all went down
with you guys?

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
Yeah, I remember specifically when it happened.
There was a time we weretraining, we were getting ready
to go for the, for the big tens.
We were, you know, basicallythe, the, the bags were out
ready to be packed and you know,goody and all the, you know,
donnie Pritzoff, all of ourcoaches were just like you know,
yeah, like you know, we'regoing to train, we're going to,
we're going to, we're going tohave the NCAA tournament.
There was a lot of, you know,political and but we were just

(01:04:41):
locked in, we were training, wewere trying to, you know, make
it.
And remember they all gatheredus in like very monotone and
Goody was like hey, guys, I justwant to inform you that they
canceled the NCAA tournament.
And like I was just like what?
Like how is that even like?

(01:05:02):
How is that even like real?
I qualified for the thing aboutthat.
I spent 18 years of my lifetraining for a goal to try and
get to college and make it tonationals.
Right, I spent three years justgrinding my whole college
career trying to make it.
Trying to make it didn't get.
It didn't get, it was close,didn't get it.
And then I make it and the NCAAtournament gets canceled.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
I was like what, yeah , it was such a great lead up to
it.
I mean, just kind of looking at, you beat Bo Bartlett right.
Well, no, that was my 157 year,yeah, yeah.
So that wasn't Bo.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
Bartlett.
But yeah that was the yearprior, 157.
Your redshirt senior year.
Yeah.
Yeah, you beat Bo Bartlett.
Yeah, so that wasn't beaubartlett, but yeah, that was.
That was the year prior.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
150, your red shirts junior year yeah, yeah, you be
beau bart.
I mean.
So you hit you like you'retalking about you had all these
wins, like at a weight class.
You're talking about thatshouldn't really, you know,
shouldn't have been there, kindof thing, but like you had.
So it's kind of like that'sthat I, as a person and as an
athlete, thinking right now Ididn't.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
I've never wrestled beau, yet that was my redshirt.
Junior year was 157.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
If you say what the heck is that?
So I'm just, I'm literallyreading the Rutgers page, I'm
reading what they had down forit.
Sometimes these guys don't geteverything right, so I'm going
to stop reading that, anyways,but what up?
Yeah, god what a letdown, right?
I mean, just like you said, itwas a weight class that you
weren't at, it was justsomething it was.
It sounded like it was going tobe great, and then they gave me

(01:06:26):
a bid.

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
I barely made it.
I made it to the nationaltournament and, boop, they
cancel it so what do you doafter that?

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
you guys just, you guys just crazy, no, I did grass
, did you so?
Were you punching stuff likethat kind of?

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
crazy.
No, this is where the this iswhere the story got real crazy.
So I, you know, was at thatpoint where, you know, covid
canceled the ncaa tournament andI was at a turning point.
My four-year contract withruckers was was up and, long
story short, I found out thatthey weren't going to give me a
scholarship to come back for mynext year.
So I was like yo, are youserious?

(01:07:00):
like I made it to nationals andyou're not going to give me any
money to come back yeah I waspissed, I was like and I love
ruckers, so like, still to thisyeah, yeah, yeah for sure I was
like, I was like lost.
I was like going through allthese crazy things, I'm like, do
I come back?
I'm gonna have to pay like 25grand to come back for a
master's or more.
Like this isn't even gonna work, dude, like how am I, what am I

(01:07:20):
going to do in my life?
And then, like you know, myparents were like, hey, do you
just want to come back to thebusiness?
Do you want to?
You want to?
You know, start working.
Like you could just pack it in,like you know, that's it oh
good dude.
Oh my god, oh my god.
So I went back home, I startedworking in the pool company.
I started doing construction.
I was just doing labor, I waswas.
You know, I don't love that.
So I was like you know, in mymind I was working five months

(01:07:42):
just like grinding and it got tothe point where I was like,
dude, I don't want to do thisanymore, like, and I don't even
know what I'm going to do rightnow with, like college.
I got to go figure somethingout.
So what I did?
I packed my bags and I flew allaround the country and I picked
up a new hobby.
One of the Rutgers wrestlerswho's a little crazy.
He picked up this hobby and heintroduced me to this community

(01:08:04):
of cliff jumpers.
Oh boy, listen, listen, I'm notproud of everything that I did.
Do I recommend this to allthese different like places
where beautiful landscapes,where I started just steadily

(01:08:24):
jumping cliffs, cliff diving,and I started to like, take it
competitively, like reallycompetitively.
I started to go from 20 feet,30 feet, 40 feet, 60 feet, 80
feet, 100 feet, 110 feet, likeinteresting, I went, I went full
, like competitive.
I was jumping 30 feet higherthan Red Bull competitions.

(01:08:47):
Not many people know this storyjust because I don't really talk
about it.
It's like daredevil adrenalinetype guy.
I'm not that guy.
I've got big things coming inmy life and all that stuff At
the same time there wassomething in my mindset that
clicked Right and I'll go, I'llgo, I'll talk to you about this.
But so there was a point whereit was August and there was a

(01:09:07):
point where I had to make adecision Am I going to go back
on my own dollar or am I not?
Okay?
So I was, you know, playingwith my life, whatever.
I started jumping, I I set aworld record.
I jumped off 110 foot cliffwith my friend.
I backflipped it and I was likethis is crazy, like this is
insane, like I have the videos,everything, yeah.

(01:09:30):
So I, uh, I was like, wow, thatwas insane, I'm never doing
that again.
Um, and then a week later, good,he calls me and he goes hey,
like, do you want to come back?
And I'm like, yeah, I want tocome back.
And he was like he's like, allright, well, you know, come back

(01:09:51):
on Friday and we'll see whathappens.
And let alone I was coming,still coming back on my own
dollar.
He didn't like offer me ascholarship or anything, but he
just offered me to come back andtrain.
So I go back on Friday.
I knew it was match day andlong story short, friday I come
in and it was wrestle-offs.

(01:10:14):
Literally, they put me upagainst my partner to
wrestle-off right away.
First day back in training, Iwas cliff jumping, traveling the
country, doing this crazy stuff, not even wrestling or training
, and they throw me into mywrestle off for one 49 pound
wrestle off, um, and I was likethat was the year after COVID.
That was, that was 2021.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
And I come in and I win.
I win my wrestle off and likeand I'll tell you one thing that
I got from the cliff, jumpingfrom the mindset.
It was like I, I, I likeliterally had my life on the
line and I was like, just like,I saw a bunch of things, I saw
people get hurt, I saved thiskid's life.
I had all these crazy thingshappen to me and I'm like, dude,
I got to go back to wrestlingand I got to fully dedicate

(01:10:57):
myself to this.
So when I went back I was freeof any baggage.
I thought that I wasn't evergoing to wrestle again.
I had all these things goingthrough my mind that, oh, I
could lose this sport.
So I went back with a free mind, like totally free and clear,
went back, won the wrestle off,and that's when I went.
We had a tri-meet, first one ofthe year.

(01:11:18):
We started our year in January.
Because of COVID, they had ayear lapse.
First dual meet I have KananStorr.
He's ranked number six in thecountry for Michigan.
Then I had Griffin Parriot,ranked number four after that,
and then my third match wasMinnesota, all in one day.
Michael Blockus he's rankednumber I don't even know 15?
.

(01:11:38):
Holy cow, yeah.
So I go in.
I wrestle Kane and Stewart barnburner of a match.
I lose by one point.
I go to Griffin, so I lose.
I go wrestle Griffin Parriott.
I lose on a locking hands call.
Okay to the number eight,whatever his ranking was.
So now, 0-2, the guy that Ibeat for the wrestle office is

(01:11:59):
like staring over the mat like,okay, he's oh and two for the
season.
Is it my time to come up and beready?
No, that second chance againstmichael block as top 15 kid in
the country.
I pull out the huge win.
I pull out the fifth, uh the 15ranking win, which gives me a
ranking and then sets me up forthe big 10 tournament.
Okay, this is where my wholecareer like changes.

(01:12:23):
Okay, in a day.
So I, I'm, I'm seated number 11at the big 10 tournament.
I come in, I lose to my firstround, I lose.
I get caught in a headlock toMichigan state uh, peyton
O'Mania, who was ranked like 12or 13, and I'm like, okay, like
this is really it, like this isreally.

(01:12:45):
If I lose this match, Iactually have.
I, uh, covid, granted usanother year of eligibility yes
so I could come back for anotheryear.
In my back of my mind I'm likedude, I just went.
Oh, I wanted the big 10tournament.
If I lose again, I'm nevercoming back.
This is it like?
This?
Is it for me, like I'm done?
Yeah, michigan, state of pain,no mania.
I dropped to the wrestlebackslowest point in my career.

(01:13:07):
My coaches aren't really evenlisten.
I love the coaches, but at thatpoint they've put so much
dedication and time into you andyou're just not performing.
They're just like all right,this is it, dude, like you know
what I mean.
So, long story short, I droppedto the wrestlebacks.
The number two seed, max murin,drops to ridge.
Love it okay okay number twoseed drops in the wrestlebacks

(01:13:30):
to an auto to like a one in fourkid I remember yeah, like
career on the line.
I go back to my hotel.
I'm, I'm just so down, so out.
You know, I almost sleptthrough the session, almost
slept through the session.
I get on the bus, I'm running,I'm running to the venue.
Right, I get to the venue and Idon't know, I had this weird

(01:13:53):
moment of like gratitude.
I was like, wow, I'm just, youknow, I'm like this is my last
match my college career,literally last match of my, my
college career.
I have no pressure on the line.
This kid's number two, I'm likenumber 11, like this could be
it for me.
I had this weird like moment ofjust like gratitude for the
sport.
I had no pressure on me, allthe pressure that I felt of like

(01:14:16):
needing to win, needing to dothis, totally erased, total,
total, total and utter freedom.
I was like, okay, this is it.
Yeah, drop into the Russellbacks and I pull out the biggest
one in my life against thenumber two seed, against Iowa
and um.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
That's so that that is a uh man, a transformation.
You know just the moment ofclarity the, the, the, it's not
base jumping but the cliffjumping.
In, just the, just the, themoment of clarity, the, the, the
, it's not base jumping but thecliff jumping, and just the,
just the kind of man, what ajourney.
Just to kind of put yourselfthrough the rank the, the, the
ringer, in doing the, the cliffjumping, like that is wow.

(01:14:52):
I don't want to call itreckless, you know, I mean
that's.
You found something that thatcalled you right and it was
something that you feltappropriate to go do and you did
.
Well, you know, you were it'snot like you were, you were, you
weren't going without fear.
I think when you do things likethat, you have to respect the
fear but at the same time thatyou plowed through, you think
some of that helped you comethrough that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
Oh, my God, you, yes, you, you.
You realize what fear really isand you realize how to like
overcome the fear and like howto perform within the fear,
right, I think that's one of thebiggest things is like putting
your mind, your body against thelimits and seeing what it can
do, and like you have to be solocked in to every single
millisecond because your life'son the line, right and wrestling

(01:15:36):
.
It wasn't like that, your lifewasn't on the line, you were
just going out and you're doinga sport, right.
But that changed, it changedwithin me.
To go ahead and you know, like,become like comfortable within
that fear.
You know, become like one withthe fear, like I think you know,
as a mental thing.
It's like, you know, one of thebiggest things is to look at
you.
I did a lot of mental training,a lot of mindset training.

(01:15:57):
I've hired performance coaches,psychology coaches we had one
at the Rutgers wrestling teamevery single week, right.
One of the biggest things thatI learned was how to like
actually look at your mind aslike a highway.
So you're driving on a highway,right, there's so many turns
that your body, your mind, canveer off and think fear, think
this, think that right.
Oh, weird thoughts come in themind.
Oh, like you know, you're notworthy.

(01:16:18):
Oh, no-transcript, trusting thepath and you did.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
You followed a path, the man you made it your way out
.
You know that that was.
That was a big win, as much asas much.
So I mean, I grew up as an iowafan, coming up as like five
years old, so that's a big win,you know that's that's.
That's a big win.
No, no matter what I think,even if he's not ranked, that's
a big win for a guy right Likebut talk about, talk about
mindset.

Speaker 3 (01:17:06):
You win one of those matches, you win one.
I won that match, right?
Yes?
Then I go and win five straightagainst all the top rank kids
in the country.
So I talk about mindset, right,what?
What is going through?
I think it's fascinating whatwent through someone's mind to
go from.
You know what went through mymind, from going from guy who
cannot beat the top rank guys tobeating all of the top rank

(01:17:29):
guys in one day.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Lipping that switch, yep.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
It's getting out of.
It's getting out of fear, it'sgetting out of and letting go of
all of the negative pressuresthat you're putting on yourself.
You can totally 100 percentruin your, ruin your success in
your life, in your sport andwhatever.
By just letting all of thesenegative thoughts control your
mindset, control all of these,these things.
It can veer you off the path.
So quickly is what I learnedyeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
and again, it was just kind of watching some of
those matches from the last,that last season and and and
seeing just the you got thefirst takedown against Bo
Bartlett.
I remember watching that and Ididn't remember the match
because I know I watched a lotof it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:08):
Before you get to there, because I want to get to
there.
Guess what happened?
Yeah, yeah.
So I went through the Big Tentournament.
I placed third in the countryand I went on to the Nationals.
I didn't even compete the way Iwanted to.
However, guess what?
Third at the Big Ten got me afull ride for my master's degree
.
Goody.
Guess what he did?
Goody paid.
He paid for my year prior thatI went on my own dollar and then

(01:18:29):
paid for the master's degree.

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
Nice, nice.
That's commitment to an athleteright there.

Speaker 1 (01:18:36):
That's showing, hey, we know you can do it.
Yeah, stay an athlete rightthere, that's uh showing a we
know you can do it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
Yeah, stay the course .

Speaker 2 (01:18:42):
So that pushed me to my senior year season, when I
went 49 and more success, that'sand watching that just kind of
how you wrestled and I didn'ttry to compare you to like past,
you know seasons or anythinglike that but just watching you
wrestle those guys, justwatching the confidence level,
you know, just uh, just watchinghow you approached I like a
takedown, cause you're, I meanit's, it's hard getting, you're

(01:19:04):
in the big tens, right, you'rein the division one wrestling,
getting in and a takedown isgreat.
Are you going to finish it?
And you did like you were justsneaky finishes too Like, but it
didn't look like you werethinking about it.
It all seemed like a naturalflow, right, and that's kind of
where everybody would like toget to before they get to a
certain you know, a certain ageor whatever.
But you had a really naturalflow about your wrestling.

(01:19:26):
And again that overhook andcoming into you know upper body
stuff and being able to utilizeit and the confidence that we,
that I saw, justin, even some ofthe losses that you had, the
confidence was still there.
I I mean you were bummed anddon't get me wrong, every guy
gets bummed but then watchingthe week after, it was almost
like it just didn't, it didn'tmatter, you were there, you were
there, you're in the moment,not in the season.

(01:19:49):
You're in the moment, not inthe season.
I kind of like to point thatout to liam.
Two more be in the moment,don't worry about this.
Long term right now is whatmatters.
That's hard to realize, and justwatching you as you grew
through that and kind of got tothe process of of the no fear
and and just kind of letting goin the moments of clarity, I

(01:20:09):
think a lot of people can takeaway from that that, just
because your path isn'tnecessarily a set one, you can
make your path.
You can make it how you want itand champion your own way
without having to bend to whateverybody else because, like you
said, you were a seagull man.
You know you weren't jumpingall over, going and doing
everything else and and youstayed that course and I think

(01:20:29):
that laid the foundation for alot of what you're we're talking
about now, just even after the.
The cliff diving, cliff diving,dude, holy shit, man.
That's, that's impressive.
That's impressive.
So once you get done withcollege, what's, uh, what were
your goals?
When you see your the end ofthe wrestling thing?
What?
What was your brain?
Was it?
Did you maybe think I want tostart a club, or maybe I'll do

(01:20:49):
this.
What were your thoughts whenyou're kind of coming to the end
?

Speaker 3 (01:20:52):
I think this is a topic of conversation that's not
talked about enough, because Ithink it's the hardest thing in
the world for someone to godedicate their life to something
and then one day it just fullyover, it doesn't even matter,
like it's just.
You know, I remember, you know,at the NCAAs I didn't compete
the way I wanted to and I just Iwas like lost.
And, to be honest with you, inone of the biggest ruts of my

(01:21:14):
life, I think you know they saythey say an athlete dies twice,
and I think that's true.
I I died after my wrestlingcollege athletics.
You know, it was you're, you'rethe star of the show.
You're competing in thousandsof, in front of thousands of
people.
You have one set, clear,definite goal of you know
becoming an all American,becoming a national champ.
Everything is set in stone.
You know what you're workingtowards, right and and when

(01:21:36):
that's over, like what happens?
Well, you need to reset yourgoal and like continue into
something else and like thattakes time.
Like how can you expect someoneto just like do something their
whole entire life and then havea set goal afterwards?
Man, I was, I was, I was brokenand it took me.
Uh, you know I was in.
I was in a hole for over a year.
I would say yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:56):
Do you just kind of take a break?

Speaker 3 (01:22:02):
You're just doing your own thing.
What's that?
Yeah, go ahead, you can go.

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
Did you go into food?
Do we back into food again?
Are you doing that?

Speaker 3 (01:22:08):
So, honestly, after that sophomore year and
everything, like I stayed on thewhole food and holistic thing
the whole way through, I'm stilldoing today.
But but yeah, like going backto, you know, getting out of
college like it was, you know, Iwent straight into business.
I would start to work for afamily company and I just, you
know, did that and got intosales and I got actually, I'm

(01:22:28):
sorry I got my real estatelicense.
You know, I graduated, Iwrestled NCAA tournament and
then went straight into realestate school, got my real
estate license, just trying tofigure out what I wanted to do,
man, and you know, I sold acouple homes.
I sold like four or five homesright out of college and I
started selling some pools too.
I sold some residential poolsas well.

(01:22:53):
Man, I tell you that that waslike the minor successes.
But all throughout that it waslike trying to figure out what I
want to do, man, freaking outjust like dude, like I'm not in
the right path, I'm not doingthis right thing.
And one thing I will say islike looking back on wrestling,
it's like, man, there were somany times where I thought that
I wasn't on the right path, likeI had all this darkness, I was
like, you know, like, am I doingthe right thing and is all this
commitment to the sport worthit in the end?
Like man, is it going to panout for me?

(01:23:14):
You know, there's so many timeswhere I thought in my career
that it wasn't going to pan outRight and at the very end, a
little sliver, a little sliverof my career turned into my
whole career being so worth it,right, and that's.
That's a.
That's a thing in business thatI can.
I can take the tactics that Ilearned from wrestling, the
vision that I turned fromwrestling, and apply it to
business Right, like I can be,like, oh, like I'm in business,
I feel lost, I feel like I'm notin the right path, like I feel

(01:23:37):
like I'm just like not doing theright thing.
Well, I felt that in wrestlingtoo, but I was doing the right
thing and that's and that's thekey.
It's like, in those times whereyou don't have faith, you don't
feel like you're doing theright thing, is the times where
you're on the right path, youknow.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Well, I mean, your, yourjourney has been it's not done.
Obviously you're doing somegreat stuff you're.
You're getting your own thinggoing and getting your feet wet,
and that you know in the, inthe I don't even want to say in
the real world you know it'swith the, the connections that
you've made in wrestling willalways carry through, I mean,

(01:24:10):
and obviously you had greatcoaches, you had great support
system, your parents are great,they have a business, you know.
So it seems like you're gonnatry and find your own way no
matter what, but at least youhave those foundations now with
the family and family, businessand school and just the
connections you've made.
Do you see yourself maybetrying to possibly take up a
coaching position at some pointat all, ever?

Speaker 3 (01:24:32):
So I was the assistant coach at Clearview for
a year.
I competed.
I was, like you know, coachingthem, and then, actually not too
long ago, I tried to make theOlympic circuit.
I competed at the Olympictrials, the last chance, okay,
you know I won and then lost and, you know, didn't make it.
I didn't make it really.
But, at the end of the day, Ikind of made a decision as of

(01:24:52):
recently to move out of mylittle small hometown and I made
a really great connection andthis is why I'm here in the
studio right now.
I use my video skills andbranding skills to take up an
opportunity with another really,really successful high-level
entrepreneur who built a reallysuccessful software company, a
hundred million dollar companyand he was a wrestler for Boise

(01:25:15):
State, nice, nice, oh yeah.
So, man, like I said, useanything you can right, like as
an athlete if you're graduatingout of college, or anything
right.
Um, and I would give everysingle person, especially
nowadays in the social mediaworld, if you're an athlete, use
your personal brand to your, toyour advantage.
Start posting your journey as awrestler, regardless if you're
a top athlete or not.

(01:25:36):
This is what I'm going to say.
I started my brand as a guy whowas struggling, athlete or not.
This is what I'm going to say.
I started my brand as a guy whowas struggling.
I made my first real film whenI was before I had success at
the Big Ten tournament before Idid that stuff.
So start documenting yourjourney, start documenting your
failures and everything and makeit visible for everyone on the
internet, right?
Because people will start tofollow you, people will start to

(01:25:56):
tune in and, over time, it willbuild connections.
It'll build, you know, a wholeaudience for you to actually
start to build connections with,and that's what I did.
You know, this personal brandhas now led me to connect with
multiple, multiple nine figureentrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 (01:26:11):
Yeah, I'm not one of them, I'm not that guy, but I'm
glad you're here.

Speaker 3 (01:26:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:16):
Glad you're here.
That's that's like I said it's.
It's the yeah, yeah, gladyou're here.
That's that's like I said it's.
It's that we may be in a smallcommunity but that now, talking
about technology and socialmedia, that reaches it's huge.
It's huge.
So it's impressive to see andseeing some of the videos that
you had put out.
Those are awesome.
So you had you already had avision kind of coming up and
what you're doing and now beingable to apply that and putting

(01:26:38):
it.
It's something it seems likeit's a passion you have.
Right, it's not just a.
I was just trying.
I was putting some videostogether, slop some stuff
together.
It's a passion you have andthat's awesome and that and, yes
, that is going to followthrough, it's going to.
I would say that wrestlers areprobably the most employable
people on the planet, you know,right, right next to any other
olympic person that's been, youknow, to the o, things like that

(01:27:00):
.
But wrestlers just have a workethic.

Speaker 3 (01:27:04):
If you're a wrestler, you have something right, you
have a work ethic, you havedrive, you have something that's
going to last you forever Ifyou can get through the sport of
wrestling.
Like Dan Gable said, everythingelse in life is easy and, to be
honest with you, there is acoercion to that quote because
even out of college, even out ofinto business world now I'll

(01:27:24):
tell you what I am stillstruggling I'm struggling to
find what I want to do with therest of my life.
I'm struggling to find out whatmy passion is and really what's
going to drive me and what'sgoing to make me have that
energy for life, like wrestlingdid.
It's actually harder as someonewho's competed and dedicated
yourself to something, becauseyou've got to pick up and leave,
you've got to give up something, you've got to look away and

(01:27:45):
look past and you've got to lookin the rearview mirror, which
is sometimes one of the hardestthings in the world.
But, like I said, if you're awrestler, if you're an athlete,
if you're Division I, if you'rea high performer, you have
something.

Speaker 2 (01:27:56):
You're correct.
You're correct, you're highlycorrect.
So what we're going to, we'vebeen going for about an hour and
a half.
What I want to do, I always dothis with everybody.
Are there any shout outs youwant to give at the end here?
I don't care who, I give me acompany.
I'm not, I'm, I'm free man.
You put it out there.

Speaker 3 (01:28:12):
Right now, like I'd say, like you know, as I'm kind
of, you know, starting my nextventure, right, like you know, I
have some.
I have some plans of, you know,keeping athletics in my life,
regardless you know whether it'scompeting in the senior level
again, probably not.
You know, probably.
You know all this promotionalboxing stuff.
You know, jake Paul, you wantto run it, bro, let's do it now.
But, seriously, all that stuffis super interesting entertainer

(01:28:34):
.
You know someone who's justcontinually, you know someone,
building a brand.
Like that is.
You know something that I'mshooting for and you know I, at
the same time, can look back onmy you know myself who was, you
know 10 years beforehand, and Ifeel like I could give so much
value to the person.
On the other end, whetheryou're an athlete, whether
you're, you know someone tryingto build a brand, whether you're

(01:28:56):
someone who's just trying to bea high performer in life, you
know whether it's.
You know the nutrition, thebrand building, the technical
video editing stuff, the all thestuff that I'm learning from
all these high levelentrepreneurs, people who are
building huge, huge, massivecompanies.
Right, you know, I want to, Iwant to bring all this knowledge
, all this stuff that I'mlearning and and and all of this
stuff that I've learnedthroughout my career, and I want

(01:29:17):
to bundle, bundle it up into,you know, a training to give
back to people who you know haveor going through the same
struggles that I've gone through, and give it to them as a
blueprint right, the, thechampion blueprint, right.
So that's a little that's aninside look on what I'm looking
to build.
Long-term is the championblueprint something that I have
in the works right now and youknow that's kind of what's going

(01:29:40):
on back here.
Yeah, nothing really set instone but, like I said, I want
to.
I want to develop people.
I want to develop athletes andentrepreneurs and business
owners and people who are justtrying to perform at a high
level.
You know, people who are tryingto get nutrition right, who are
trying to get their mindsetright, you know, and you know
business and branding, all thatstuff.
I want to, you know, teachpeople and just give back, and

(01:30:01):
you know that's a passionproject for me.
Like, long term, you know, rightnow I'm just in the midst of,
you know, trying to get my feeton the ground as someone who is
an athlete to someone trying toget into the business world.
You know it's tough, it's noteasy and I still have, you know,
many the right move everysingle day.
But, like I said, this is thepath of the champion, someone

(01:30:23):
who can take the negatives intheir life and, like I said,
just get back on that mentalhighway, get on that path of
just continual personaldevelopment and just continually
to try and better themselves.
Um, but, yeah, shout out to youknow, uh, shout out to Seagulls
wrestling club, who you knowgrew me and uh, you know, into
the wrestler I am.

(01:30:44):
Shout out to my parents, my dad, my mom, uh, people who've been
along there for the journey,shout out to Rutgers wrestling.
Um, like I said, they gave me anopportunity to, uh, you know,
showcase my skills.
You know, most people you knowwho are not blue chip recruits
can't get the chance to wrestlein front of huge crowds.
Rutgers, in New Jersey, gavethat to me, gave me a fire under
my belt, it gave me an audience, it gave me a platform to

(01:31:07):
showcase all the skills and themindset and everything that I
learned, and I would have notbeen able to do it without
Rutgers.
I wouldn't have been able tohave that platform without them
and, man, they were just thebest thing to happen in my life.
Have that platform without themand, man, they were just the
best thing to happen in my lifeand I'm so happy that I stayed
loyal throughout those yearsbecause, man, they they are.

(01:31:28):
They gave me, you know, some ofthe best times in my life.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
True Jersey kid.
True Jersey kid man.

Speaker 3 (01:31:33):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:31:34):
That's right.
So what?
What's the message you got forthe kids?
A lot of kids watch us.
What do you the things you wantto pass out to the kids as far
as some advice here.

Speaker 3 (01:31:44):
Yeah, the biggest thing for the younger, the
athletes or someone who, theyounger people who just want to
perform high in life, right, Ithink the biggest thing that
you're going to have to figureout is right here.
Now there's humans, right, allof us are given a body, all of
us are given skills, all of usare given, you know, talents and

(01:32:05):
all these things, right, butyou know, and actually, people,
you know these, you know youngor young, you know athlete or
you know, if you're younger, ingeneral, you're going to be,
you're going to look around andthere's going to be people that
go through the same program asyou, people who you know have
similar support systems as you,but there's going to be very few
people who actually go andsucceed and like, actually

(01:32:28):
become high performers in life.
And the answer is going to beright here, because there's so
many distractions in this world.
Right, there's people that haveso talents or they're, you know
, gorgeous people.
They have athletics out the youknow crazy athletics.
They have talents, right, buthalf of them, I'd say 80% of
people, never get to the pointwhere they actually can, you

(01:32:48):
know, step into their calling.
Is a young athlete?
Right, you have, you know,chasing girls chasing, you know
bar scenes, you know drinking,doing all these different
distractions.
Right Like lock in right now,because life and these

(01:33:10):
opportunities that you're goingto get are going to fly by like
that you can think, oh, I havecollege four years, I've you
know all these.
All this time you don't rightLike it's going to come down to
the wire for a lot of people toactually go and achieve
something.
So make sure that you have yourmindset right.
Take away the distractions.
If you're spending seven hoursa day on your phone, dude, get
rid of it.
Like, unless it's like personaldevelopment, youtube content on

(01:33:31):
like how to grow your mindset,how to like become a better
athlete, you know workouts to do, like all these things like
dive in and lean into peoplelike who have the apple on the
tree that you want.
Pick a pick, a mentor, picksomeone that has something that
you want and latch onto them.
Continue to like produce theircontent, like listen to their
content and like consumeyourself with positive, positive

(01:33:54):
thinking and the people aroundyou.
I'm going to say one more thingyour life is the culmination of
the five people you spend themost time with.
So if your friend group and allthe people around you are
spending time, wasting theirtime just playing video games,
like going out, just like doingthings that are not going to
benefit a long-term goal.
Dude, you got to separateyourself and you got to just

(01:34:15):
like, think of yourself assomething bigger.
Because, like because, like Isaid, like another thing is,
nobody in this world is going tothink of you higher than
yourself.
If you think of yourself highly, if you think that you can
achieve big dreams, if you thinkthat you can chase these big
goals and aspirations, you'll beable to do it.

(01:34:37):
People around you will start tothink that you could actually
do it too.
You will, you'll, you'll beable to do it.
People around you will start tothink that you could actually
do it too.
But if you can't think it, ifyou can't see it or, you know,
believe it yourself, it's nevergoing to happen.
It's not going to be up to yourcoaches, it's not going to be
up to your parents to succeed.
It's not going to be up to them.
Right, In the end, it's goingto be you putting in the hours,
putting in the time and actuallycultivating that self-belief in

(01:34:58):
your mind that you couldactually achieve these dreams.
Those are the biggest thingsthat I got to say to a young
athlete is now is the time tojust take away the distractions,
put away all the nonsense stuffthis generation is.
It's harder now.
You guys are born in likeliterally the time with most,

(01:35:18):
like the most distractions.
You guys have the phone.
You got all these just likenegative influences in your life
right.
It's time to actually put itdown and and try and find a way
out and and find the good peoplein your life that are going to
lead you to the, to the goalthat you want.

Speaker 2 (01:35:32):
Well said, well said.
So it's been a greatconversation.
I want to talk to you for aminute once we're done I mean,
honestly there's more to talkabout we're definitely going to
have you back on.
You know we always want totouch back in with, see what
guys are doing and see what kindof progress they got going on
and see the new things they gotgoing on.
It's all part of the journey,it's all part of the story.

(01:35:54):
So, take note, kids, build yourmental brand.
You know, once you, once youbelieve in yourself and believe
in what you can, man, you can,you can do anything.
And that's kind of what we'restarting to see with a lot of
these guys, with the bo, bassetsand the and all the other guys
are starting to come up.
I mean, look at the branding.
I mean it's, it's everywhere.
You can't avoid it.
So put yourself out there, guys, but put yourself out there in

(01:36:14):
a positive way.
Put yourself out there in a waythat's going to show people
that you're trying to do goodthings, that you're trying to
move in the right direction orforward direction.
So social media can be a trickyplace.
Social media can be a dirtyplace.
Social media can also bring you.
I mean, look at Jake Paul bringyou, bring you a lot of money,
man.

Speaker 3 (01:36:32):
And if you do it the right way, if you guys, if you
guys need help on anything, justreach out to me through DMS.
Like literally I'll answer,like I'll help you guys, like
I'll help you create videos andbranding and just like all these
things like help help you getrecruited, like all these little
things I'd love to help, um,help my younger self, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:48):
So he's, he's.
He's everywhere.
He's on Instagram, he's onTwitter, you're on Facebook,
right, you're on Facebook.
So he's.
He's here to help um check outthis episode for sure.
You know, down the line, takesome notes.
If you got questions foranything, you said, reach out to
him.
But, uh, we're gonna wrap it up.
I'm gonna talk to you for aminute once we're done here, but

(01:37:08):
it's been a great episode ofthe vision quest podcast with
mike van brill.
Man, it's been awesome.
I appreciate it.
So we're gonna hit that finalmusic and we're going to cut
everybody out.
Peace, let's go.

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