June 1, 2025 • 31 mins
As we conclude the month of May. In honor of Mental Health Awareness Month, Voice4Chefs is proud to rerelease and spotlight the courageous and inspiring journey of Chef Abbey, whose story sheds light on the challenges—and triumphs—of mental health in the culinary world.
On today’s episode, we meet Chef Abby Miller, the first recipient of the Anthony Bourdain Scholarship through the Culinary Institute of America (CIA). With a minor in Asian cuisine and a deep love for storytelling through food, Abby shares her remarkable culinary journey—from a nomadic childhood to finding her passion and voice in the kitchen.
We dive into:
* **Her early inspiration**: Moving over 40 times growing up, Abby discovered a sense of home and stability through food. Watching Food Network and working in her parents' restaurant at age 12 ignited her passion for the culinary arts.
* **Choosing the Culinary Path**: Although originally headed toward a career in intelligence studies, Abby made a bold pivot—trading one CIA for another—to attend the Culinary Institute of America.
* **Life at CIA**: Abby recounts the rigorous yet rewarding experience of culinary school, waking up at 4:30 a.m. for practical classes, becoming team leader, and eventually being chosen as the class speaker.
* **Externship Growth**: She reflects on her four-month externship at Stein Eriksen Lodge in Utah, working during their busiest season. Overcoming homesickness, she found strength and mentorship that helped solidify her passion.
* **Kitchen Culture and Mental Health**: Abby opens up about working in a male-dominated kitchen, navigating toxic work environments, and advocating for healthier, more supportive culinary spaces. She courageously shares her own experiences with anxiety, depression, and PTSD—highlighting the importance of mental wellness in the food industry.
This episode is a heartfelt look at the resilience, determination, and advocacy that define Chef Abby Miller’s inspiring culinary journey.
Season2
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Dugan (00:00):
Today on the show, I want to introduce you to
(00:03):
Chef Abby Miller. Abby was thefirst recipient of the Anthony
Bourdain scholarship through theCulinary Institute of America.
And she's also received a minorin Asian cuisine. When she
graduated, she found that shehad a love of writing,
photography and travel. Abbey,welcome to the show.
Chef Abbey (00:23):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Such an honor to finally connectwith you and have a real world
conversation.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Especiallythrough the past two years. Now
of COVID, which is insane. It'sjust amazing to be able to
connect with people who areacross the country from you. I
(00:43):
think it's incredible.
Michael Dugan (00:44):
Social media has now allowed us to connect us not
just across the country, butacross the world. I mean, the
people that you and I have metthrough social media, it blows
my mind.
Chef Abbey (00:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let's get into it. So why don'tyou tell me a little bit about
what it was like growing up? Iunderstand that you're really
strongly connected to food andcan you tell us why?
Growing up? I have moved morethan about 40 times in my life.
And so I've lived in many partsof Florida. I've lived in many
(01:18):
parts of New York and I neverreally found that sense of home
or stability in a home sense. SoI searched for it through food.
I would bake I would, watch mymom in the kitchen. I would be
(01:41):
obsessed with food, culinaryshows and Food Network and I
think the most common show thatI can remember watching growing
up was man first food and oh mygosh, I for some reason I
aspired to, be like him andhave a show like that. And it
(02:05):
wasn't until about I was insixth grade. So I was about 12
years old, that my mom and dadopened a restaurant in Buffalo,
New York. And they hadabsolutely no restaurant
experience prior to this.
Michael Dugan (02:25):
They had never worked in a restaurant before?
Chef Abbey (02:28):
My mom she did,Front of House management experience
here and there. Yeah, so like alittle taste of hospitality, but
to build the restaurant from thebottom up. It was definitely a
new venture for all of us,actually. And I remember
(02:51):
watching them build the kitchen,from the scratch all the way to
the shiny stoves and thesparkling utensils, just
everything and I was so amazedby it. And my 12 year old self
then didn't really understandthe kitchen. I was just watching
(03:12):
these at the time huge men carryall this stuff and create all
these incredible dishes. Andwatching that restaurant go from
literally nothing like an emptylot to having it jam packed with
people and being on the news andit being in the newspaper. It
(03:34):
was incredible. And so from thatmoment on, it was definitely
what sparked my interest in thehospitality industry and it just
seeing the faces of those gueststhere. I was just, I knew it was
what I wanted to do. And it wasdefinitely that's, I think it
was the first moment in my lifeas a 12 year old girl where I
(03:59):
was like, this feels like homelike this feels like comfort to
me because that was something Istruggled trying to find as I
was growing up, people wouldthink okay, that's when she
started chasing her dream was at12 years old. I didn't really
think about working in a kitchenuntil my senior year of high
(04:20):
school. So I kind of put thatdream and that love aside and
hid it within me for a whilebecause I grew up with five
sisters. So they all were in lawschool and going to be a
teacher. So I never wanted to bethe youngest sister that was
like, oh I want to go cook.
Because I was scared of thatjudgment until my senior year of
(04:42):
high school. I got a job at thisdesert place. And my whole
family decided to come visit meone night and it was a crazy
busy night and was an openkitchen so they were able to sit
down in the restaurant, and theywere able to watch me cook and
take all the tickets. And it wasin that moment. Seeing them
(05:05):
watching me and I can rememberit so vividly. Like To this day
I knew that the line life andthe cooking life is like what I
want to do and the passion ofserving people I found so much
joy and happiness in ithonestly. And my mom told me
that night. Wow, Abbey you wereso comfortable up there and you
(05:30):
you killed it. I was like, Ididn't believe her at the time.
End of senior year I graduatehigh school and by that time I I
was enrolled at MercyhurstUniversity for intelligence
studies. That's what I said Iwas gonna go do and what I was
(05:53):
gonna go study I had my roommatepicked out. I visited the campus
met the president. And it wasone morning I woke up I sat on
my stairs and I cried and lookedat my mom and I was like, I
don't want to go there. I waslike I want to go here and that
(06:13):
was the Culinary Institute ofAmerica came I came to this. It
came to a shock to my wholefamily because you're building
up. You're giving up one type ofCIA for another type of CIA,
the cooking world. And I wasjust like this is what I want to
(06:34):
do. And the first time I steppedon campus was moving day and
honestly since then, that wastruthfully the start of
indulging in that spark ofloving food so much that sparked
in me at 12 years old. Wow. Soit was it was a long journey to
(06:58):
get there but I'm super thankfulfor it.
Michael Dugan (07:03):
You said intelligence studies are you
talking to CIA intelligence?
Chef Abbey (07:07):
Yeah, alongside watching Food Network shows, I
was obsessed with, bones andCriminal Minds. And I would
watch that all the time growingup. So I was super interested in
(07:30):
studying the law. And I was likea police officer or forensic
studies. And so that's what Iwas going for. And I yeah, I
just kind of put my foot downand was like this isn't for me
and I did a total 180.
Michael Dugan (07:49):
That's like a 360.
Chef Abbey (07:52):
Definitely more like 360.
Michael Dugan (07:53):
Right. Wow. Oh my gosh, so. So then you started in
the CIA is that in the CulinaryInstitute of America.
Chef Abbey (08:03):
Yeah. So I started August of 2017. My mom moved me
and it was just her and I. And Iremember she was so nervous. I
was nervous too. And she nevertold me this until about a year
(08:24):
later. But she told me that whenshe moved me in, she thought
that there was no way I wasgoing to last longer than like a
month at this school. If youtour the campus it is it's very
strict and very formal.
Michael Dugan (08:42):
I would love to know one of my dreams is to tour
the campus. Go to the CIA andnot attended but
Chef Abbey (08:51):
see it. Yeah, moving day was incredible and having
not visited the campus beforethen. They definitely did
everything in their power. Tomake every single student sort
of feel welcome and just happyto be there. From the point of
waiting in our car to move intoour dorm, they were already
(09:12):
passing out cookies and milk andrunning down, running down the
sidewalk and like sayingwelcome. And we had I do a whole
toking ceremony and at thistoking ceremony that the parents
were there and the families werethere and the students had to be
in their chef whites. And theyhad to learn CIA's Mis En Place
(09:39):
song. They had a go through thewhole acceptance and it wasn't
until they walked across thestage and the president of CIA
put the toke among our heads.
And that was welcoming us andyou are officially part of CIA.
Michael Dugan (09:58):
Explain what a toke is?
Chef Abbey (10:00):
A toke is a chef hat basically a very long white hat.
The hat you see on ratatouille?
That's okay. Yeah, that way hasit's called a toke. And so we
would walk across the stage andthey would place the toke among
our head. And that was that waslike welcomed welcoming us in
(10:25):
and before that they had talkedto the parents and the students
were sort of behind stage Ibelieve. And they had given this
whole speech to the parents ofhow tough the CIA is. And they
call it the West Point ofculinary school and my mom yeah,
my mom's sitting in the audiencein I guess she was just thinking
(10:48):
to her head like, oh my gosh,like, what is Abby getting
herself. She she didn't think Iwas cut out for that stress in
the yelling. Yeah. Sure enough,a month down the way. She had
(11:09):
many calls and, I was crying. Iwas stressed. I was like, I
don't know what to do. But Iyeah, I turned it around. The
shy girl who didn't really thinkshe would make her mark ended up
being the class speaker for herclass three years later. So I, I
(11:30):
definitely like I would repeatit in a heartbeat if I could,
like I would repeat it 1000times over. It was the absolute
best experience of my life. Themost stressful and one of the
hardest, but the most rewarding,that's for sure.
Michael Dugan (11:52):
So for those who haven't been to cooking school,
what's this structure like thecurriculum because. I can
describe the cooking, I went tocooking school at Scottsdale
Community College in Seattle.
And it was one of the top threein the country for community
colleges and really structured.
We had all these differentdepartments and every two weeks
(12:14):
you would rotate your station,so you'd start out in prep. And
then you'd end up in saute orsauce or you end up being a
waiter, and it would just rotatecompletely around the cooking
school so every two weeks youwould get a brand new
experience. They even had apotluck every day, all the food
(12:35):
that was leftover was put into apotluck, and there was a sous
chef, quote, unquote, that wasthat was your role for two weeks
is to be the sous chef, and youcreated the meal for everyone,
right based on the ingredientsthat you had. So it was an
amazing learning experience. Butthat's I guess it might have
been similar to CIA, but I don'tknow.
Chef Abbey (12:57):
So actually, that is fairly similar to CIA's how
their classes work. When nowit's a little different. I
understand as the years go on,they're kind of changing how the
curriculum works. But when Istarted, I had a 15 week
(13:19):
fundamental class. Basically,what I meant before of how
they're changing theircurriculum. They're not
necessarily changing. They'rejust adjusting the rotation.
People who start now might nottake that fundamental class
first, they just might take itlater down the road. But so when
(13:40):
I started, I had thatfundamental class first and it
was 15 weeks, and you learnedall the kitchen fundamentals
from Brunoise, Julianne all thefine dice cut see all the mother
sauces you learn every basicthat you possibly could know,
(14:04):
relating to food here and I hadan am class so I would wake up
every morning at 4 (14:12):
30am. I loved it personally. I'm that
weird person that for somereason likes the morning more so
rather than staying up late atnight. So I would wake up at 430
and as a team leader, I had theI had to be the first person
(14:33):
there. So I would get therearound like 515 ish. And I would
have my class come in andcertain people would be
designated to set up thestations, go get their food from
the storeroom, bring it back tothe kitchen, and you would just
(14:56):
cook what was scheduled that dayby your chef, whoever your chef
is for that class. And so that'show those 15 weeks would go. And
and then after that you wouldtake a meats class for three
weeks a fish class for threeweeks. You would go work in high
volume production, which we callthe egg because that is what are
(15:21):
like lunch cafeteria places. Andso you would go work there. And
then you would every studentwould take a break for four
months but not necessarily abreak. They wouldn't go work out
in the real industry. So theygot it amazing experience they
would get what is called anexternship.
Michael Dugan (15:44):
That is what needs to be done because we
didnt have that when I went toschool, so you graduated and
you're like, What do I do?
Chef Abbey (15:51):
Exactly A lot of connections too and so
for those four months, we'll goout. We get graded by the
restaurant, the hotel, whoeveryou chose to go work with.
They'll probably ask you to do atasting for them in the
beginning and at the end to seehow you grew at that place. And
(16:14):
what's funny is after theexternship This isn't to scare
anyone, but this is kind of whyI like that they do the
externship because it allowspeople to truly get a sense and
a feel for. Is this really mypassion so after externship. Not
(16:35):
everyone genuinely will comeback right away. A lot of a lot
of people sometimes will saylike, okay im going to just stay
here and work the food industryisn't necessarily for me. So I
love the fact that theexternship is there because I
(16:57):
think it's a valuable learningexperience. Before you actually
get thrown out into the realworld we're genuinely you are on
your own. It allows you to growin a lot more ways than just
one. So I ended up going toStein Eriksen lodge in Park
(17:18):
City, Utah for four months and Iwent during their busiest
season, which was Christmas theSundance Film Festival. And that
was an amazing experience. And,
Michael Dugan (17:32):
like, what did you love? And What didn't you
like?
Chef Abbey (17:36):
Oh god giving arriving there I was definitely
homesick for sure. I was faraway from Buffalo. It was
Christmas time and I wasn't surehow to handle it at first and
growing up with you the type ofchildhood I did, I still
(18:02):
struggle learning how to getthrough certain anxiety. So I
was definitely out of my comfortzone when I first arrived. I
remember talking to one chef,Chef Lou Bay, and he had called
me into the office and this wasafter I had called my mom that
(18:26):
morning, crying saying like, Idon't know if I can do this. And
he pulled me into the office andhe I didn't tell anyone what was
going on but he knew and heasked if I was okay. And I told
him, I'm just struggling. And heassured me that we're family and
that he's here for me, and thatI can do this. From that point
(18:49):
on? I showed up early every day.
I went in on my days off tolearn extra things like it
really motivated me. Becausefrom that point on, I just kept
telling myself If I have thisperson believing in me and this
person believed in me it was itwas super empowering because it
(19:10):
allowed me to keep pushingmyself. I kept telling myself
like, okay, I can do it. Ididn't want to give up. So it
was it was definitely tough. Itwas my first experience in a
fine dining establishment. I wasone of the only females in the
kitchen at the time. That wasvery intimidating. As a female
(19:36):
in the kitchen, you got to yougot to deal with those crappy
remarks. That are thrown hereand there. So as a 18 year old,
I was definitely trying to learnmy way through that and allow
myself to grow from it. I hadthe chef's being like oh, please
(20:03):
like why can't you stay so Idefinitely proved myself and I'm
really thankful, the amount oftimes I got yelled at and the
amount of times they push me.
Michael Dugan (20:18):
Getting yelled at though that's the restaurant
business many don't don'tunderstand. The smashing of a
plate that the cussing thecursing, the screaming. I had a
waitress throw a bowl of hotsoup at me once and she was just
angry in general. She wasn'tangry at me. That stopped me in
(20:41):
my tracks. But it iscommonplace. It shouldn't be. It
really shouldn't be. But thepressure can be really, really
intense. And people build offsteam in very strange ways and
they shouldn't but that's thereality of it.
Chef Abbey (20:57):
Yes, and that kind of brings up an important topic
I want to get to a little laterin regards it doesn't have to be
the way that it is in thekitchen and in the industry. And
that's something that I'mdefinitely trying to work on and
bring awareness. I think you canstill serve bomb ass food while
(21:22):
having a nice kitchen culture.
And you don't have to, degradeyour cooks and chefs, if they
make a mistake, or it doesn'thave to be as brutal as it is.
Michael Dugan (21:37):
And let's talk this is the perfect time to
bring it up and share with ouraudience and talk about it
because I agree with you.
Chef Abbey (21:53):
I'm very open and vulnerable with is mental
health. I am super honest aboutthat. Since about eighth grade
I've struggled with anxiety,depression and PTSD and it's
something I've become superhumble about and accepting that
(22:14):
if other people have that, likeit's okay. And knowing that it's
nothing to be ashamed about. Anddealing with mental health while
being in a very brutal industry,it definitely hurts you for
sure, especially if you're at anestablishment that doesn't
(22:38):
necessarily support mentalhealth, support the fact that as
a cook, you still have a lifeoutside the kitchen. At 22 years
old, I felt myself experiencingburnout symptoms. I was having
(23:00):
major panic attacks before goinginto work. I suffering from like
severe imposter syndrome,meaning. I felt like I wasn't
good enough in the kitchen, andI was really, hard on myself
and I was like I'm 22 years old,I just graduated. I shouldn't be
(23:21):
burnt out and I'm not blamingthe kitchen industry itself. It
definitely has to do with Ireally went I mean, I understand
like, I definitely have likestruggle with mental health
beforehand, but the industry itdefinitely, it brings that
opening eye to it. If they don'tsupport it. I've been at places
(23:45):
that told me I couldn't work theline because I was too
intimidating to the men and toodistracting as a female to the
man line. So it's, it's justmoments like that where you have
to put your foot down and belike, okay, I have to understand
(24:05):
my worth and I have to move on.
And that's something that'ssuper hard, and I think I'm
watching a lot of friends andfellow workers, like I've
graduated with, leave theindustry because they just think
that this is how it's supposedto be and they can't handle it.
(24:27):
And I don't want to see that Iwatched these people kick ass
through school. And I know howgood they are. And like, I know
what they're all capable of.
It's just a matter of that theindustry that we're walking
into, is the industry of suchold and modern ways they don't
(24:52):
want they don't want to likechange with the times and
Slow really, really slow.
Us we're so what do they want tocall us Boomer or not Boomers,
Gen Z. They definitely, we,there's a lot of opinions about
(25:15):
us, but we're just we're tryingto move with the times and
trying to make mental healthsomething to not be ashamed of
and trying to make workplacesworth working and that's
something Chef Jensen taught meand brought awareness to my
eyes. I did not reallyunderstand what that meant until
(25:38):
I sat down and was like, I'm notat a workplace right now that is
supporting my mental health. Andit was at that point where I
realized how important it reallyis to establish a workplace that
has, that positive energy andaccepting that we all have a
(25:59):
life outside of work and we allhave those struggles and we
shouldn't be scared to go up toour bosses and, say that we're
feeling underappreciated orundervalued or, Hey, like, I'm
having a bad day, like, can I gotake a second? Just little
(26:19):
things like that. We shouldn'tbe scared of and I think that's
what a lot of things that needto change. I want to see that
the people that I graduatedwith, continue in the industry
because I know they love it forwhat it is. And I know that
(26:40):
there's so many positive changesthey all want to do to it. It's
just a matter of like, are weable to get our foot in the door
or is it going to constantly belike the old ways and so, yeah,
it's rough, but we just got tokeep pushing and speaking up
about it.
Michael Dugan (27:03):
As a career coach, and I still am I do it on
the side, but I think it'simportant to ask the right
questions. In other words, whenyou go to interview with
someone, you think about it,like you're not going to accept
the position unless it's rightfor you. And a lot of people
don't do that they accept itbecause they're offered it. But
(27:23):
the more the more times youpound the pavement and the more
opportunities that you look at,the more choices you have. So a
lot of people first job they'reoffered, they take it and then
they deal with whatever happens,and then they leave. But if you
step back and you think aboutwhat do you want, and you make a
list, and one of the one of thestrategies is you look at
(27:45):
previous work that you've done,and you evaluate those jobs and
you say, here's what I lovedabout this job and you make a
list of all those things. Here'swhat I hated about this job,
like you're angry or frustrated,or he just didn't like it right.
And then you realize that thereare certain patterns that
different restaurants, differenthotels, different places in
(28:07):
hospitality have it's a culture.
I work for a company now thatreally values their employees,
like really values during thepandemic. They gave us two extra
days off, just to have a mentalhealth day. It was a total
surprise to the whole company.
Another thing I really value isvolunteering, actually get paid
(28:31):
time off to volunteer because ofmy company because they see
working at a nonprofit andvolunteering and giving your
time as value. Now, of course,the company gets a huge benefit
by doing that, but they builtthat into their culture. So when
you look for those kinds oforganizations, even in the
hospitality industry, theyexist. That's the key I think,
(28:54):
is making that right choice.
Connecting to the right chefthat has those values like Chef
Jensen, and Chef Mimi, and to methat's, that's the key. And I
didn't do that. In my early daysin the restaurant business. I
just went along and I said,okay, here's this opportunity.
I'll take it. And then I left.
(29:16):
Six months I left stayed a yearand another place but I left
because I wasn't fulfilled rightand so what you're talking
about, I think it's culture. Andeven though we can paint a
picture and say, the wholerestaurant business is a
disaster. It's not. It dependson the culture of
Today on the show, I want to introduce you to
(00:03):
Chef Abby Miller. Abby was thefirst recipient of the Anthony
Bourdain scholarship through theCulinary Institute of America.
And she's also received a minorin Asian cuisine. When she
graduated, she found that shehad a love of writing,
photography and travel. Abbey,welcome to the show.
Chef Abbey (00:23):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Such an honor to finally connectwith you and have a real world
conversation.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Especiallythrough the past two years. Now
of COVID, which is insane. It'sjust amazing to be able to
connect with people who areacross the country from you. I
(00:43):
think it's incredible.
Michael Dugan (00:44):
Social media has now allowed us to connect us not
just across the country, butacross the world. I mean, the
people that you and I have metthrough social media, it blows
my mind.
Chef Abbey (00:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let's get into it. So why don'tyou tell me a little bit about
what it was like growing up? Iunderstand that you're really
strongly connected to food andcan you tell us why?
Growing up? I have moved morethan about 40 times in my life.
And so I've lived in many partsof Florida. I've lived in many
(01:18):
parts of New York and I neverreally found that sense of home
or stability in a home sense. SoI searched for it through food.
I would bake I would, watch mymom in the kitchen. I would be
(01:41):
obsessed with food, culinaryshows and Food Network and I
think the most common show thatI can remember watching growing
up was man first food and oh mygosh, I for some reason I
aspired to, be like him andhave a show like that. And it
(02:05):
wasn't until about I was insixth grade. So I was about 12
years old, that my mom and dadopened a restaurant in Buffalo,
New York. And they hadabsolutely no restaurant
experience prior to this.
Michael Dugan (02:25):
They had never worked in a restaurant before?
Chef Abbey (02:28):
My mom she did,Front of House management experience
here and there. Yeah, so like alittle taste of hospitality, but
to build the restaurant from thebottom up. It was definitely a
new venture for all of us,actually. And I remember
(02:51):
watching them build the kitchen,from the scratch all the way to
the shiny stoves and thesparkling utensils, just
everything and I was so amazedby it. And my 12 year old self
then didn't really understandthe kitchen. I was just watching
(03:12):
these at the time huge men carryall this stuff and create all
these incredible dishes. Andwatching that restaurant go from
literally nothing like an emptylot to having it jam packed with
people and being on the news andit being in the newspaper. It
(03:34):
was incredible. And so from thatmoment on, it was definitely
what sparked my interest in thehospitality industry and it just
seeing the faces of those gueststhere. I was just, I knew it was
what I wanted to do. And it wasdefinitely that's, I think it
was the first moment in my lifeas a 12 year old girl where I
(03:59):
was like, this feels like homelike this feels like comfort to
me because that was something Istruggled trying to find as I
was growing up, people wouldthink okay, that's when she
started chasing her dream was at12 years old. I didn't really
think about working in a kitchenuntil my senior year of high
(04:20):
school. So I kind of put thatdream and that love aside and
hid it within me for a whilebecause I grew up with five
sisters. So they all were in lawschool and going to be a
teacher. So I never wanted to bethe youngest sister that was
like, oh I want to go cook.
Because I was scared of thatjudgment until my senior year of
(04:42):
high school. I got a job at thisdesert place. And my whole
family decided to come visit meone night and it was a crazy
busy night and was an openkitchen so they were able to sit
down in the restaurant, and theywere able to watch me cook and
take all the tickets. And it wasin that moment. Seeing them
(05:05):
watching me and I can rememberit so vividly. Like To this day
I knew that the line life andthe cooking life is like what I
want to do and the passion ofserving people I found so much
joy and happiness in ithonestly. And my mom told me
that night. Wow, Abbey you wereso comfortable up there and you
(05:30):
you killed it. I was like, Ididn't believe her at the time.
End of senior year I graduatehigh school and by that time I I
was enrolled at MercyhurstUniversity for intelligence
studies. That's what I said Iwas gonna go do and what I was
(05:53):
gonna go study I had my roommatepicked out. I visited the campus
met the president. And it wasone morning I woke up I sat on
my stairs and I cried and lookedat my mom and I was like, I
don't want to go there. I waslike I want to go here and that
(06:13):
was the Culinary Institute ofAmerica came I came to this. It
came to a shock to my wholefamily because you're building
up. You're giving up one type ofCIA for another type of CIA,
the cooking world. And I wasjust like this is what I want to
(06:34):
do. And the first time I steppedon campus was moving day and
honestly since then, that wastruthfully the start of
indulging in that spark ofloving food so much that sparked
in me at 12 years old. Wow. Soit was it was a long journey to
(06:58):
get there but I'm super thankfulfor it.
Michael Dugan (07:03):
You said intelligence studies are you
talking to CIA intelligence?
Chef Abbey (07:07):
Yeah, alongside watching Food Network shows, I
was obsessed with, bones andCriminal Minds. And I would
watch that all the time growingup. So I was super interested in
(07:30):
studying the law. And I was likea police officer or forensic
studies. And so that's what Iwas going for. And I yeah, I
just kind of put my foot downand was like this isn't for me
and I did a total 180.
Michael Dugan (07:49):
That's like a 360.
Chef Abbey (07:52):
Definitely more like 360.
Michael Dugan (07:53):
Right. Wow. Oh my gosh, so. So then you started in
the CIA is that in the CulinaryInstitute of America.
Chef Abbey (08:03):
Yeah. So I started August of 2017. My mom moved me
and it was just her and I. And Iremember she was so nervous. I
was nervous too. And she nevertold me this until about a year
(08:24):
later. But she told me that whenshe moved me in, she thought
that there was no way I wasgoing to last longer than like a
month at this school. If youtour the campus it is it's very
strict and very formal.
Michael Dugan (08:42):
I would love to know one of my dreams is to tour
the campus. Go to the CIA andnot attended but
Chef Abbey (08:51):
see it. Yeah, moving day was incredible and having
not visited the campus beforethen. They definitely did
everything in their power. Tomake every single student sort
of feel welcome and just happyto be there. From the point of
waiting in our car to move intoour dorm, they were already
(09:12):
passing out cookies and milk andrunning down, running down the
sidewalk and like sayingwelcome. And we had I do a whole
toking ceremony and at thistoking ceremony that the parents
were there and the families werethere and the students had to be
in their chef whites. And theyhad to learn CIA's Mis En Place
(09:39):
song. They had a go through thewhole acceptance and it wasn't
until they walked across thestage and the president of CIA
put the toke among our heads.
And that was welcoming us andyou are officially part of CIA.
Michael Dugan (09:58):
Explain what a toke is?
Chef Abbey (10:00):
A toke is a chef hat basically a very long white hat.
The hat you see on ratatouille?
That's okay. Yeah, that way hasit's called a toke. And so we
would walk across the stage andthey would place the toke among
our head. And that was that waslike welcomed welcoming us in
(10:25):
and before that they had talkedto the parents and the students
were sort of behind stage Ibelieve. And they had given this
whole speech to the parents ofhow tough the CIA is. And they
call it the West Point ofculinary school and my mom yeah,
my mom's sitting in the audiencein I guess she was just thinking
(10:48):
to her head like, oh my gosh,like, what is Abby getting
herself. She she didn't think Iwas cut out for that stress in
the yelling. Yeah. Sure enough,a month down the way. She had
(11:09):
many calls and, I was crying. Iwas stressed. I was like, I
don't know what to do. But Iyeah, I turned it around. The
shy girl who didn't really thinkshe would make her mark ended up
being the class speaker for herclass three years later. So I, I
(11:30):
definitely like I would repeatit in a heartbeat if I could,
like I would repeat it 1000times over. It was the absolute
best experience of my life. Themost stressful and one of the
hardest, but the most rewarding,that's for sure.
Michael Dugan (11:52):
So for those who haven't been to cooking school,
what's this structure like thecurriculum because. I can
describe the cooking, I went tocooking school at Scottsdale
Community College in Seattle.
And it was one of the top threein the country for community
colleges and really structured.
We had all these differentdepartments and every two weeks
(12:14):
you would rotate your station,so you'd start out in prep. And
then you'd end up in saute orsauce or you end up being a
waiter, and it would just rotatecompletely around the cooking
school so every two weeks youwould get a brand new
experience. They even had apotluck every day, all the food
(12:35):
that was leftover was put into apotluck, and there was a sous
chef, quote, unquote, that wasthat was your role for two weeks
is to be the sous chef, and youcreated the meal for everyone,
right based on the ingredientsthat you had. So it was an
amazing learning experience. Butthat's I guess it might have
been similar to CIA, but I don'tknow.
Chef Abbey (12:57):
So actually, that is fairly similar to CIA's how
their classes work. When nowit's a little different. I
understand as the years go on,they're kind of changing how the
curriculum works. But when Istarted, I had a 15 week
(13:19):
fundamental class. Basically,what I meant before of how
they're changing theircurriculum. They're not
necessarily changing. They'rejust adjusting the rotation.
People who start now might nottake that fundamental class
first, they just might take itlater down the road. But so when
(13:40):
I started, I had thatfundamental class first and it
was 15 weeks, and you learnedall the kitchen fundamentals
from Brunoise, Julianne all thefine dice cut see all the mother
sauces you learn every basicthat you possibly could know,
(14:04):
relating to food here and I hadan am class so I would wake up
every morning at 4 (14:12):
30am. I loved it personally. I'm that
weird person that for somereason likes the morning more so
rather than staying up late atnight. So I would wake up at 430
and as a team leader, I had theI had to be the first person
(14:33):
there. So I would get therearound like 515 ish. And I would
have my class come in andcertain people would be
designated to set up thestations, go get their food from
the storeroom, bring it back tothe kitchen, and you would just
(14:56):
cook what was scheduled that dayby your chef, whoever your chef
is for that class. And so that'show those 15 weeks would go. And
and then after that you wouldtake a meats class for three
weeks a fish class for threeweeks. You would go work in high
volume production, which we callthe egg because that is what are
(15:21):
like lunch cafeteria places. Andso you would go work there. And
then you would every studentwould take a break for four
months but not necessarily abreak. They wouldn't go work out
in the real industry. So theygot it amazing experience they
would get what is called anexternship.
Michael Dugan (15:44):
That is what needs to be done because we
didnt have that when I went toschool, so you graduated and
you're like, What do I do?
Chef Abbey (15:51):
Exactly A lot of connections too and so
for those four months, we'll goout. We get graded by the
restaurant, the hotel, whoeveryou chose to go work with.
They'll probably ask you to do atasting for them in the
beginning and at the end to seehow you grew at that place. And
(16:14):
what's funny is after theexternship This isn't to scare
anyone, but this is kind of whyI like that they do the
externship because it allowspeople to truly get a sense and
a feel for. Is this really mypassion so after externship. Not
(16:35):
everyone genuinely will comeback right away. A lot of a lot
of people sometimes will saylike, okay im going to just stay
here and work the food industryisn't necessarily for me. So I
love the fact that theexternship is there because I
(16:57):
think it's a valuable learningexperience. Before you actually
get thrown out into the realworld we're genuinely you are on
your own. It allows you to growin a lot more ways than just
one. So I ended up going toStein Eriksen lodge in Park
(17:18):
City, Utah for four months and Iwent during their busiest
season, which was Christmas theSundance Film Festival. And that
was an amazing experience. And,
Michael Dugan (17:32):
like, what did you love? And What didn't you
like?
Chef Abbey (17:36):
Oh god giving arriving there I was definitely
homesick for sure. I was faraway from Buffalo. It was
Christmas time and I wasn't surehow to handle it at first and
growing up with you the type ofchildhood I did, I still
(18:02):
struggle learning how to getthrough certain anxiety. So I
was definitely out of my comfortzone when I first arrived. I
remember talking to one chef,Chef Lou Bay, and he had called
me into the office and this wasafter I had called my mom that
(18:26):
morning, crying saying like, Idon't know if I can do this. And
he pulled me into the office andhe I didn't tell anyone what was
going on but he knew and heasked if I was okay. And I told
him, I'm just struggling. And heassured me that we're family and
that he's here for me, and thatI can do this. From that point
(18:49):
on? I showed up early every day.
I went in on my days off tolearn extra things like it
really motivated me. Becausefrom that point on, I just kept
telling myself If I have thisperson believing in me and this
person believed in me it was itwas super empowering because it
(19:10):
allowed me to keep pushingmyself. I kept telling myself
like, okay, I can do it. Ididn't want to give up. So it
was it was definitely tough. Itwas my first experience in a
fine dining establishment. I wasone of the only females in the
kitchen at the time. That wasvery intimidating. As a female
(19:36):
in the kitchen, you got to yougot to deal with those crappy
remarks. That are thrown hereand there. So as a 18 year old,
I was definitely trying to learnmy way through that and allow
myself to grow from it. I hadthe chef's being like oh, please
(20:03):
like why can't you stay so Idefinitely proved myself and I'm
really thankful, the amount oftimes I got yelled at and the
amount of times they push me.
Michael Dugan (20:18):
Getting yelled at though that's the restaurant
business many don't don'tunderstand. The smashing of a
plate that the cussing thecursing, the screaming. I had a
waitress throw a bowl of hotsoup at me once and she was just
angry in general. She wasn'tangry at me. That stopped me in
(20:41):
my tracks. But it iscommonplace. It shouldn't be. It
really shouldn't be. But thepressure can be really, really
intense. And people build offsteam in very strange ways and
they shouldn't but that's thereality of it.
Chef Abbey (20:57):
Yes, and that kind of brings up an important topic
I want to get to a little laterin regards it doesn't have to be
the way that it is in thekitchen and in the industry. And
that's something that I'mdefinitely trying to work on and
bring awareness. I think you canstill serve bomb ass food while
(21:22):
having a nice kitchen culture.
And you don't have to, degradeyour cooks and chefs, if they
make a mistake, or it doesn'thave to be as brutal as it is.
Michael Dugan (21:37):
And let's talk this is the perfect time to
bring it up and share with ouraudience and talk about it
because I agree with you.
Chef Abbey (21:53):
I'm very open and vulnerable with is mental
health. I am super honest aboutthat. Since about eighth grade
I've struggled with anxiety,depression and PTSD and it's
something I've become superhumble about and accepting that
(22:14):
if other people have that, likeit's okay. And knowing that it's
nothing to be ashamed about. Anddealing with mental health while
being in a very brutal industry,it definitely hurts you for
sure, especially if you're at anestablishment that doesn't
(22:38):
necessarily support mentalhealth, support the fact that as
a cook, you still have a lifeoutside the kitchen. At 22 years
old, I felt myself experiencingburnout symptoms. I was having
(23:00):
major panic attacks before goinginto work. I suffering from like
severe imposter syndrome,meaning. I felt like I wasn't
good enough in the kitchen, andI was really, hard on myself
and I was like I'm 22 years old,I just graduated. I shouldn't be
(23:21):
burnt out and I'm not blamingthe kitchen industry itself. It
definitely has to do with Ireally went I mean, I understand
like, I definitely have likestruggle with mental health
beforehand, but the industry itdefinitely, it brings that
opening eye to it. If they don'tsupport it. I've been at places
(23:45):
that told me I couldn't work theline because I was too
intimidating to the men and toodistracting as a female to the
man line. So it's, it's justmoments like that where you have
to put your foot down and belike, okay, I have to understand
(24:05):
my worth and I have to move on.
And that's something that'ssuper hard, and I think I'm
watching a lot of friends andfellow workers, like I've
graduated with, leave theindustry because they just think
that this is how it's supposedto be and they can't handle it.
(24:27):
And I don't want to see that Iwatched these people kick ass
through school. And I know howgood they are. And like, I know
what they're all capable of.
It's just a matter of that theindustry that we're walking
into, is the industry of suchold and modern ways they don't
(24:52):
want they don't want to likechange with the times and
Slow really, really slow.
Us we're so what do they want tocall us Boomer or not Boomers,
Gen Z. They definitely, we,there's a lot of opinions about
(25:15):
us, but we're just we're tryingto move with the times and
trying to make mental healthsomething to not be ashamed of
and trying to make workplacesworth working and that's
something Chef Jensen taught meand brought awareness to my
eyes. I did not reallyunderstand what that meant until
(25:38):
I sat down and was like, I'm notat a workplace right now that is
supporting my mental health. Andit was at that point where I
realized how important it reallyis to establish a workplace that
has, that positive energy andaccepting that we all have a
(25:59):
life outside of work and we allhave those struggles and we
shouldn't be scared to go up toour bosses and, say that we're
feeling underappreciated orundervalued or, Hey, like, I'm
having a bad day, like, can I gotake a second? Just little
(26:19):
things like that. We shouldn'tbe scared of and I think that's
what a lot of things that needto change. I want to see that
the people that I graduatedwith, continue in the industry
because I know they love it forwhat it is. And I know that
(26:40):
there's so many positive changesthey all want to do to it. It's
just a matter of like, are weable to get our foot in the door
or is it going to constantly belike the old ways and so, yeah,
it's rough, but we just got tokeep pushing and speaking up
about it.
Michael Dugan (27:03):
As a career coach, and I still am I do it on
the side, but I think it'simportant to ask the right
questions. In other words, whenyou go to interview with
someone, you think about it,like you're not going to accept
the position unless it's rightfor you. And a lot of people
don't do that they accept itbecause they're offered it. But
(27:23):
the more the more times youpound the pavement and the more
opportunities that you look at,the more choices you have. So a
lot of people first job they'reoffered, they take it and then
they deal with whatever happens,and then they leave. But if you
step back and you think aboutwhat do you want, and you make a
list, and one of the one of thestrategies is you look at
(27:45):
previous work that you've done,and you evaluate those jobs and
you say, here's what I lovedabout this job and you make a
list of all those things. Here'swhat I hated about this job,
like you're angry or frustrated,or he just didn't like it right.
And then you realize that thereare certain patterns that
different restaurants, differenthotels, different places in
(28:07):
hospitality have it's a culture.
I work for a company now thatreally values their employees,
like really values during thepandemic. They gave us two extra
days off, just to have a mentalhealth day. It was a total
surprise to the whole company.
Another thing I really value isvolunteering, actually get paid
(28:31):
time off to volunteer because ofmy company because they see
working at a nonprofit andvolunteering and giving your
time as value. Now, of course,the company gets a huge benefit
by doing that, but they builtthat into their culture. So when
you look for those kinds oforganizations, even in the
hospitality industry, theyexist. That's the key I think,
(28:54):
is making that right choice.
Connecting to the right chefthat has those values like Chef
Jensen, and Chef Mimi, and to methat's, that's the key. And I
didn't do that. In my early daysin the restaurant business. I
just went along and I said,okay, here's this opportunity.
I'll take it. And then I left.
(29:16):
Six months I left stayed a yearand another place but I left
because I wasn't fulfilled rightand so what you're talking
about, I think it's culture. Andeven though we can paint a
picture and say, the wholerestaurant business is a
disaster. It's not. It dependson the culture of
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