Angela D. Sims: Silhouette Interview

Angela D. Sims, PhD is President of Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School.

Episode Transcript

UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
Hello, I am Nancy Lynn Westfield, director of the
Wabash Center.
Welcome to Dialogue on Teaching,a silhouette interview.
The silhouette conversations aresparked from a list of
standardized questions.
We have the good fortune to hearfirsthand from teaching
exemplars about their teachingand teaching life.
Today, our silhouette guest isDr.
Angela D.

(00:24):
Sims.
Dr.
Sims is president at ColgateRochester Crozer Divinity
School.
Welcome, President Sims, to theconversation.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Thank you, Dr.
Westfield, for the invitation.
So let's get started.
Question one.
When you were a child, what didyou want to be when you grew up?

(00:44):
So when I was a child, I reallywanted to be a hematologist.
I knew individuals who livedwith the real effects of sickle
cell disease.
And I thought, what if?
We had a neighbor who was adepartment head at Children's
Hospital in Oakland, California.

(01:06):
And that was where I had myfirst job as a 16 year old.
And getting to see the ways inwhich the intricate systems of
hospitals worked in conjunctionwith parents and guardians and
other caring folk and the waysin which children and young

(01:30):
adults who were patients werereally encouraged to live their
best lives but i kept thinkingwhat if but then that was my
childhood dream and i realizedlater on in life that you know
sometimes dreams requiresacrifices that we're not always
able or willing to make okay butthey childhood dreams also are

(01:53):
about what you just describedright looking for ways to help
people, right?
Children say, oh, there's aplace for me there because I'm
curious about that.
So it is not a wonder that youwould have switched to something
else, but even that impulse as achild to say, I'm going to be in
a place that is so helpful andso needed and so specific is

(02:16):
kind of lovely.
Number two, who was proud of youwhen you became a teacher?
whole lot of people in myfamily.
I am the daughter of publicschool educators and the
goddaughter of public schooleducators.
We want names, Angela.

(02:37):
Give names.
I am the daughter of the lateWilliam Roosevelt Stewart Jr.
and the late Helen Marie BrownStewart Swayza Pollard.
I am the goddaughter of the lateSolon Marshall and Ethel Jackson
Marshall.
And I commuted with my motherwhen I was in elementary school

(02:58):
with three other teachers.
And I think for me, becoming ateacher surprised a lot of folk.
because it was a circuitousroute for me.
But my people were proud thatthey saw that in some ways that
I was honoring them because oftheir life work, even though it

(03:22):
was in a different context, adifferent setting, but that I
was honoring them.
And in many ways, my becoming ateacher functioned for them and
I'll use my language as alibation.
That's beautiful.
Yeah, that's lovely.
So you were second career whenyou came to faculty.
Talk quickly about second careerdecisions.

(03:46):
I thought that I couldsuccessfully manage an
accounting career that includedsupervision and full-time PhD
studies.
I thought that.

UNKNOWN (04:06):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
I worked at an organization where the owner of
the company and the CFO were asflexible as anyone would want
someone to be.
I had a great team, but Irealized during my first week of
coursework that I had reallystepped into things extremely

(04:33):
naive.

UNKNOWN (04:34):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
And that, you know, there were some folks who tried
to counsel me.
I'll name two, Kelly BrownDouglas and Cheryl Sanders.
But, you know, it was adifferent era.
It was a different time.
It's like, of course I can dothis right now.
And so what I learned in thatexperience was that sometimes we

(04:59):
have to know when to walk away.
And I do not regret walking awayand devoting myself to full-time
studies.
I learned very quickly, again,having traveled, done extensive
travel, that I thought I couldmanage the travel as well.

(05:20):
And my commute from my then hometo campus on a good day was an
hour and a half drive.
And I learned that if I wasgoing to spend time in the
library, that I would be on theroad very, very late at night

(05:42):
and that I would be exhausted.
And so within three weeks, Irealized that while travel as a
business professional is onething, traveling as a PhD
student is is something entirelydifferent.

(06:03):
It requires different bodyadjustments, different rhythms,
and that I also recognize thatcoming to my studies as a second
career also perhaps afforded mesome privileges particularly as

(06:25):
it related to being able tobalance some economic realities
and having to make the decisionabout my third week that I
really just couldn't do thatcommute.
And so I am thankful to my thenPastor Luke Torian, who said
something to his spouse, ClariceTorian, about my dilemma, who

(06:47):
said she had a sister, PatriciaJones-Turner.
who lived in the area and thatperhaps I could stay with her.
Because we didn't have anon-campus housing option in the
middle, a fifth of the way intoa semester, there were no
on-campus housing options forme.

(07:08):
And the decision was made, Iwould stay in Richmond.
And it was an easier 15 minutedrive when the library closed at
11, 8 p.m.
than it was to do that hour anda half drive.
And so I stayed with she and hercat Solomon for the remainder of
that semester.

(07:28):
And I would get to her homeabout 1130, 1145.
She and Solomon would have a cupof herbal tea on my bedside
table.
And they would come in and chatwith me.
And I would chat with them forabout an hour.
Then I would go to sleep and getup, refresh the next day, ready
to go back to campus.

(07:48):
But What I appreciate coming tothe academy, having had a career
outside of the academy, are theways in which persons approach
things differently.
And recognizing that in manyways, sometimes the pejorative

(08:12):
language in the academy aroundbusiness and business practices
really demands a re-examining.
And at the same time, I thinkthat there are grave
misconceptions in the businesssector about some of the
realities of the professorate.

(08:35):
And I think one of thoserealities that really needs to
be addressed from the businesssector are around issues of
compensation.
And to recognize both the timeand resource and just the mental

(08:56):
investment that an individualcommits when they enter a PhD
program to adequately preparethemselves for what might be
next.
And I am not sure even now howto fully address that.
on this side of a chair where Iam very mindful of the ways in

(09:20):
which there is not always anappreciation for the
professorate.
And in some ways, I think thatthe higher education industrial
complex has itself contributedto this problem.

UNKNOWN (09:44):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
Who has influenced your teaching for the better?
So first of all, I think aboutsome students who unabashedly
just would read everything,required reading, supplemental
readings, asking forsuggestions, and who brought

(10:05):
their questions into practice.
the classroom.
I think about persons likeMelissa Pierce, who came to her
studies, her theologicalstudies, having already earned a
PhD in some area of engineering.
I think about students likeDavid Gilmour, who was a retired

(10:30):
Navy career person, a PK, loveof the church, and who really
pushed questions about what itmeans to really think about the
relevancy of church in a moderncontext, dealing and navigating
other issues, recognizing thatthose issues are going to always

(10:51):
be there.
But how do you do that work insuch a way that the church is in
many ways a central aspect ofthe ways in which I think about
myself as a scholar teacher.
One of my favorite thing aboutteaching adults is that in so
many regards, they're our peers,right?

(11:12):
So we don't lose the teachingauthority, but we also often
gain conversation partners.
So that's lovely.
My dad, who is now 16 years old,Charlie Isabel, who as, I think
she got her first library cardbefore she was 18 months old,
but her natural curiosity, theways in which she played with

(11:36):
Legos, helping me to think aboutthe ways in which I need to be
mindful of how I use languagelike thinking outside of the box
or coloring outside of thelines, because in many ways that
might suggest or convey toothers that there's no value in
the box.
There's no value in the lines.
So how do I rethink that?

(11:57):
my approaches to any particularaspect of my teaching.
I think about some of the folkswho just invested above and
beyond in myself.
I think about the late EvansCrawford.
And the conversations that wehad in his office at Howard

(12:17):
School of Divinity, where Iwould just sit and soak up stuff
as we're surrounded by hisbooks.
He was a homiletician.
I think about the late SamRoberts, who really didn't know
what to do with me as a PhDstudent.
It was like, OK, are you littlesis?
But I could sit in his officeand we could talk about heart

(12:39):
and heart issues.
issues.
I think about Cheryl Sanders,who said to me as a first or
second year seminarian, Angela,don't be worried about what
you're going to call yourself.
You just better do your bestwork.
I think about Kelly BrownDouglas, who gave me permission

(12:59):
to take her doctor of ministrycourses as my electives with an
understanding that I was goingto show up And I better have
done all the reading.
And who said to me, okay, weneed to work on your writing.
And this is what we need to do.
I think about someone likeAlison Geist Johnson, who said

(13:22):
to me, Angela, you're in thewrong degree program.
And you're not going to haveoptions for your electives in
this DEMAN program.
You're going to go down thestreet and take these classes
with Katie Cannon.
And I think about Dr.
Cannon, who was, as I used totell her, was generous to a

(13:42):
fault.
Generous to a fault with hertime, with her resources, but
who created the space for me.
And even when on sabbatical, whosaid, here's the key to my
office.
I need you to be in my office onthis day only.

(14:05):
of every week at this time, andI don't want us to repeat what
we discussed the previous week.
I think about Stan Skreslet, whowas the historian on my
committee, and the ways in whichhe introduced me to a broad

(14:29):
spectrum of what used to becalled the history and theology
of mission.
but making sure that I got toknow folks who were part of the
Maryknoll sisters, who ensuredthat I had conversations with
some different folk as I wasworking through particular
issues and thinking about thoseissues from a distinctive

(14:52):
womanist lens.
And him saying, it's okay too,to know that you can push these
other areas as you're using thatlens.
What has surprised you aboutteaching or the teaching life?
I think one of the things thathas surprised me is something

(15:15):
that one of my colleagues when Iwas working in corporate said,
and she herself was OrthodoxJewish, and she said, avoid a
tendency to look for answers.
follow the questions and seewhere the questions lead.

(15:37):
And I think it is thequestioning aspect that has most
surprised me about teaching,particularly as I have made a
transition from a quote unquoteformer classroom to an informal
classroom where I am engagedwith learners who are not
enrolled in a degree program.

(16:01):
Do you enjoy writing inlonghand?
And if you do, what is yourutensil of choice?
So let me say one of the thingsI discovered about six or maybe
seven or eight years ago is thatI had really lost my capacity to
write in longhand.
Because I had become sodependent upon electronic

(16:26):
writing tools.
Keyboards.
That when...
I do sit down to write inlonghand, it takes longer
because my brain has beenretrained.
And I am really thinking now,what would it mean to retool
myself once again, to weanmyself from the devices and to

(16:50):
go back to probably pen andpaper?
But I also have discovered thatMy penmanship hasn't become
unrecognizable to myself.
And so making sure that when Igrab something that is legible

(17:13):
enough that I am able to pick upand go with it.
But for me, writing longhand hasbecome a lost art.
And I think it's mostunfortunate.
And I did not realize that itwas happening.
What's your superpower?
If I have a superpower, I wouldsay probably perseverance.

(17:43):
I tend to think about the longobjective.
And sometimes that's not good.
But that allows me in many waysto stay focused.

(18:03):
But at the same time, I thinkperseverance allows me to think
about what it means to seemyself as both one who attempts

(18:23):
to be compassionate, but who isat the same time firm.
And I don't know if sometimesthose collide in ways that don't
always lend themselves to beingreceived by others in the manner

(18:48):
in which I intended to bereceived.
I mean, I think that's wellsaid.
It's the leader's dilemma.
So you are compassionate, youare open-hearted, but you still
have decisions to make for thebetter good of the whole
institution.
So our next question is aninfamous question.

(19:09):
Don't think too much about this.
Just let us know.
What's your favorite cuss word?
Shit.
But let me say, I didn't startcussing.
until after I was ordained.
Of course.
I never cussed preordination andhad unpleasant things to say

(19:34):
about folks who use what I'venow described as colorful,
appropriate, sometimes the onlymost effective language.
It takes church leadership toget you there.
Hmm.
Next question.

(19:57):
How have you survived certainviolences in teaching?
I think part of the ways I havesurvived has been to recognize
that there are some things thatI don't need to internalize.
Others have been to have folksthat I know that I can go to who

(20:23):
will simply listen and not tryto offer me a solution, not try
to justify the behavior, not tryto suggest any types of
retaliatory measures I couldexplore, but folks who are just
willing to sit and to hold it.

(20:48):
And I think some other ways Ihave survived it is that I have
tried not to perpetuate the harmthat I have received.
Yeah, all lofty and difficultthings to do.
Which is why shit is sometimesmy only response.

(21:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Next, what healings have youwitnessed or received in
teaching or the teaching life?
Oh, so when I think abouthealings in the teaching life, I
think, first of all, about myown healing and the ways in

(21:36):
which I have learned to be kindand gentle to myself.
I realized that where I am onany given issue across the
theological spectrum today isnot where I was a year ago,
certainly not where I was 20years ago.

(21:58):
And I am mindful of somethingthat one of my maternal aunts
said to me, Emma Butler, I mighthave been 13 or 14 years old.
And I was a child of the BlackBaptist Church.
And with all of its good, withall of its bad, and particularly

(22:23):
with all of its bad, when itcame to an understanding of the
full humanity of all of God'schildren.
And I said something extremelyhateful, and I'm thankful that I
don't remember what I said, butI know it was hateful because of
the retort I got from my aunt toone of my cousins.
And my aunt said that God wouldhave to soften my heart.

(22:47):
And I have never forgotten that.
And so when I observe the waysin which students open
themselves up to be transformedby knowledge, to be transformed
by experiential learning, and tosee a student move from a very

(23:12):
hard and fast stance onsomething to be an open person,
to hearing and exploring, andthen to move to the point where
they may say, you know what, Igot that wrong.
And let me consider what I needto do to amend any harm that

(23:34):
I've done because I got itwrong.
That's where I see healing.
I see healing in teaching whenemployees across the theological
spectrum are able to engage inconstructive dialogue.

(23:59):
And I have to ask myself, how dowe then take that out into these
larger worlds and communitiesthat we inhabit?
If we can do it in thisparticular space, How do we do
it in the other spaces?
I think the other places where Isee healing in teaching is when

(24:20):
I and other professors reallyacknowledge the ways in which
teaching at its best is neverproselytization.
Teaching at its best means thatwe are reading broadly and we
are introducing our students tobroad perspectives perspectives,

(24:43):
giving them some tools that theycan use throughout their life
journey to assess the value ofthe resources that they're
engaging, knowing that if we'renot introducing them to a broad
spectrum across their studieswith us, then perhaps, just
perhaps, they really aren'tpoised to construct an informed

(25:08):
theological response to anymoral dilemma.
that they may encounter, but thehealing is fluid.
And oftentimes I find myselfamazed when healing is taking
place because it suggests thatsometimes I'm not as attentive

(25:30):
as I need to be to what's goingon and how to keep my hand on
the pulse of the institution.
Last question.
At the conclusion of yourteaching career, so not now, not
soon, but at the conclusion,what miracles will you have

(25:50):
performed?
You know, Lynn, when it is timefor me to make my transition
into the eternal realm, I hopethat I will have enough presence
of mind to be able to say, Ihope, just hope, that I left a

(26:15):
little nugget in somebody thatthey will continue to raise
questions that I myself did notknow to ask.
Yeah, that's the dynamite,right?
That's the curiosity that spawnsother curiosities, right, is the

(26:37):
miracle.
That's nice.
President Sims, as always, myfriend, my colleague, thank you
so much for being here.
Thank you for having thisconversation.
Thank you for the conversation,Dr.
Westfield.
It's always good to be indialogue with you.
To our listeners, we encourageyou to subscribe to our
newsletters as well as take anongoing look at our website.

(26:58):
There's information on ourwebsite and our newsletter about
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A special thanks to soundengineer Paul Myrie and the
music which frames thissilhouette podcast is the
original composition of PaulMyrie.
Wabash Center for more than 30years is exclusively funded by
Lilly Endowment Incorporated.

(27:19):
And we are out.
How was that, Paul?