Christine Hong: Silhouette Interview

Christine J. Hong, PhD is Associate Professor of Educational Ministry and Lead Professor of the DEdMin Program at Columbia Theological Seminary. 

Episode Transcript

UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
Hello, I am Nancy Lynn Westfield, director of the
Wabash Center.
Welcome to Dialogue on Teaching,a Silhouette interview.
The Silhouette conversations aresparked from a list of
standardized questions.
We have the good fortune to hearfirsthand from teaching
exemplars about their teachingand teaching life.
Today, our Silhouette guest isDr.

(00:24):
Christine J.
Hong.
Dr.
Hong is associate professor ofeducational ministry as well as
lead professor for doctor ofeducational ministry program at
Columbia Theological in Decatur,Georgia.
Welcome, Christine, to theconversation.
Thank you so

SPEAKER_02 (00:39):
much for having me today.

SPEAKER_00 (00:41):
So let's get started.
Question number one.
When you were a child, what didyou want to be when you grew up?

SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
I wanted to be Indiana Jones.

SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
Stop it.
That is great.

SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Say more.
I don't know.
The hat, the whip.
Yes, everything.
I loved the idea that he livedthis double life.
I thought that was the mostfascinating part of those movies
was that he was a professor byday and he taught.
I love the idea of teachingalways.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
And I

SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
always played at teaching.
I think people play at teachinga lot.
And so I always did that with mydolls, with my friends, with my
little brother, much to hischagrin and his distaste.
So I love that about him.
But then I loved that he alwayshad these side quests that he
went on with his friends too.

(01:37):
And he was fighting fascism.
But I loved this double life.
He got to do everything that hewanted to do and that it all
connected at the end of the day.
So I was always fascinated bythat.
And I really wanted to be him.
And I really thought I was goingto go to school and study
archaeology.

(01:57):
because of that.

SPEAKER_00 (02:00):
Well, you're not that far removed.
So I think that's lovely, right?
I love that.
I love that.
Who was proud of you when youbecame a teacher?

SPEAKER_02 (02:08):
When I became a teacher, I think I'm trying to
think about when it was that Ibecame a teacher.
Because I became a pastor first.
And I think I discovered myteaching ministry in the

(02:30):
pastorate.
But I think I was the only onethat knew that.
But when I became a professor iswhen I was acknowledged as a
teacher, I think in my family.

SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
So, but when you were pastoring, don't go past
that too quickly.
Did you have a sense ofownership, a sense of pride, a
sense of aha, or was it justanother thing that you had to
get done?

SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
When I was a pastor, I think I loved the teaching
piece of it.
And it was a moment ofvocational discernment for me,
where there were pieces of itthat I really did not like.
I did not, I can preach fine andI enjoy it sometimes, but it's

(03:19):
one of those things that makesme nervous every single time.
And I have learned, that whenyou're nervous every single
time, it's not alwaysanticipation and excitement.
It's your body's fear reaction.
It's your body telling you, youdon't like this.
And you maybe shouldn't be doingit.
Dread is not good, right?
You should not be moving intodread.

(03:41):
Right.
And that never went away.
I don't feel that way aboutteaching.
I'm actually excited about it.
And so I learned in thepastorate that I felt
differently about teaching thanI do about preaching.
And that's where I discernedthat maybe I need to be a
teacher.
Maybe I need to pursueeducation.
And I think when I discernedthat and I kind of named that

(04:01):
out loud, it was my mother thatwas proud of me.
It was that discernment, thatmoment where I said, I'm leaving
the pastorate to go be ateacher, to learn how to be a
teacher.
She just, she said, I alwaysknew.
I saw that in you.
What's mom's name?
Her name is Kyunghee.
Hong Kyung Hee.

(04:21):
Actually, it's Yoon Kyung Hee.
So she reclaimed her Koreanmaiden name.
So it's Yoon Kyung Hee.

UNKNOWN (04:28):
Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
Next, what's the best thing your mother ever
taught you?
The

SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
best thing my mother ever taught me?
She taught me so many things.
I think to always...
find the sliver of happiness inthe moment that you're in.

(04:57):
And that's so hard.
That is so hard.
But she is someone that hadlived a very difficult life.
And I watched that and I waspart of that.
But she was always able to findand draw out those tiny little

(05:18):
glimmers for us as childrenduring very, very difficult
times.
And I'm always reminded of that.
And I think looking back at itnow was a trauma response,
right?
It's like a trauma response anda coping mechanism in some ways,
but she reminds me that herparents are ancestors and she,

(05:40):
you know, were survivors of somevery big traumas.
And so those, those littleglimmers of happiness, those
little glimmers of hope, thoseare really also God moments too
that remind us that there's morethan just those moments of grief
and sorrow, but there's more outthere.

(06:02):
So to remind ourselves that weare alive.
And that's the biggest lessonthat I continue to go back to,
especially in moments wherethere's great disappointment or
great pain.

SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
Thanks, mom.
Who has influenced your teachingfor the better?

SPEAKER_02 (06:19):
So many people.
So many people.
Both dead and alive.
But I think consistently, it'son the daily basis, it's always
my students.

(06:42):
I learn from them all the time.
I'm teaching a class right nowthat's an asynchronous class on
spirituality.
And most of my colleagues hateteaching asynchronous courses
because they say they have theleast contact with students.
So they like that face-to-faceinteraction and the immediate

(07:05):
engagement.
But I actually enjoyasynchronous courses because I
get to sit and really engagetheir words very deeply and
slowly.
and especially if they're makingvideos or making art.
And I can sit and read theirwords intentionally over long
periods of time and throughoutthe week.

(07:25):
And they're always teaching methings as they cycle back
through the things that they'resaying and thinking about.
And they teach me and they addthe things that they mirror back
to me about my teaching, aboutwhat I'm missing in my teaching,
about the things that I thoughtthat I didn't intend to teach.
the things that I really shouldhave emphasized that I didn't,

(07:49):
and the things that I found thatI did teach after all, right?
That I probably should haveexplicitly taught and happily
did end up teaching, but didn'tintend to.
So I learned from my students, Ithink most rigorously and daily,
and they are the best teachers.

(08:09):
And especially because so manyof my students now are coming to
us as second career.
Many of my students are olderthan me and come to me with
greater life experience, havelived in places I've never

(08:30):
lived.
Many of my students areinternational students.
They come to me from contextsthat I will never experience.
And there's so much wisdom inevery space that I'm in with
them.
And so they're always myteachers.
So I am so aware even inasynchronous spaces that I'm in

(08:53):
space with them that there is somuch I don't know.
Even though I'm teaching aparticular topic that they're
puzzle pieces that they'remeeting me with and we're
putting those puzzles together.
I don't know the full pictureand they're bringing those

(09:13):
pieces to bear.
So yeah, I would say mystudents.

SPEAKER_00 (09:18):
What has surprised you about teaching or the
teaching life?

SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
How imbalanced it is.

SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
Say more.

SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
What surprised me is that we talk a lot about balance
in the teaching life.
Like, you know, write, teach,rest, care for yourself, care
for your family, sabbaticals,things like that, work-life

(09:53):
balance.
But a lot of our institutionsdrive us in ways that are
counter to that.
And I watch myself and a lot ofour colleagues pay for that with
a lot of actual physical painand illness.

(10:15):
and mental pain and illness.
And our families, by extension,and our loved ones pay too.
And we don't talk about thatexplicitly enough.
And that has surprised me thatwe, even though we all suffer
from it somehow, or some of usmore than others, that we don't

(10:36):
talk about it out loud enough.
And I've started to talk aboutit more, especially with
mentees, as I come up to theAcademy about the reality of
that tax.
Because I think it's only fairto know that there isn't

(10:56):
actually relief from that on theother side of a PhD.
There's not.
So yeah, that has surprised methat we are still, there's still
fragility in the fact that wecan't talk about it honestly.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
many institutions have not decided that grind
culture is overtaxing people,right?
Grind culture is a negative.
I mean, many are champions ofgrind culture.
So yeah, now I get it.
Yeah.
Next, what is a favoritenickname by which you are called
by a loved one?

UNKNOWN (11:34):
Oh.

SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
Favorite nickname.
I think a lot of my friends callme Siege because it's short for
CJ.

SPEAKER_00 (11:45):
It's too much to say.
The two letters.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
Siege.
I don't know why it's so hard,but yeah.
But my favorite name is Amma,which is just mom in Korean.

SPEAKER_00 (12:03):
Nice.
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (12:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:05):
So, okay, Indiana Jones, this is similar to
Indiana Jones, but different.
What profession other thanteaching would you like to
attempt now?

SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
Oh my gosh, I would just love to, if I could do
this, I would do this for therest of my life.
I would just love to take careof senior animals

SPEAKER_01 (12:27):
on a

SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
piece of land, just on a piece of land somewhere and
just be a place where senioranimals could come and spend
their last year.
I love animals.
Yeah.
I love animals and I especiallylove senior animals.
And I've always adopted all ofmy animals.
We have five right now.
And they're all senior, except Ithink like, I guess a couple of

(12:54):
them are on the youngermiddle-aged side, but I
especially love them in theirsenior years.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And I kind of feel like it's thebest gift you can give them is
to be that last place.
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
A place of dignity.
Do you enjoy writing inlonghand?
And if so, what is yourpreference of ink pen or writing
utensil?

SPEAKER_02 (13:24):
I do enjoy it, but here's the thing.
My handwriting is the worst inthe world.
So I do love writing in longhandbecause it helps me remember.
It's a mechanism for helping meremember things.
But when I go back to it, it'slike deciphering code.
I don't always know what I wrotesometimes when I go back after a

(13:44):
long time.
And I really don't care for, Idon't really care about the
tool.
So it's whatever's at hand.
And it's often a hotel pen and ahotel notepad.
that I've gotten at aconference.

SPEAKER_00 (13:58):
That's right, whatever's close by,

SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
right?
It's usually a Wabash thing.

SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Yes, a Wabash notepad.
Yes, yes.
They're good, right?
That's good.
Yes, they're good.
What's your superpower?

SPEAKER_02 (14:16):
My superpower is, my superpower is that I have, I
think a deep ability to haveempathy for what someone is
experiencing and to not have toidentify my story with theirs to

(14:46):
come close to it.
So not have to like insertmyself in their story in order
to feel compassion in order tofeel like I hear them.
But it was a long time inpracticing that and teaching

(15:12):
myself and being taught tolisten in a different way to
come to that.

SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Yeah, people don't need to be saved from
themselves, right?
So just being with rather thanrescuing from is a real gift to
people.
So number 10 is our infamousword, our infamous question.
It might be...
Anyway, I'll just say it.
I won't say what it might be.

(15:37):
What's your favorite cuss word?
Fuck.
Why?
I mean, I'm not against it.
Just

SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
because.
That's the one that comes outthe most, I think.

UNKNOWN (15:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:57):
It just comes

SPEAKER_00 (15:59):
out the most.
I get it,

SPEAKER_01 (16:01):
I get

SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
it.
Number 11, how have you survivedcertain violences in teaching?

SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
I have to process it really deeply.
And that is by, on multiplelevels.
I think I've learned to notstuff it down.
I've learned that I need to talkabout it with somebody.
I need to process it out loudwith someone who's a good and

(16:39):
careful listener.
Someone that's going to just beable to hear it and not judge.
I've learned that I need to beable to not judge myself.
or how I responded to it.
And I've also learned thatbecause I'm a survivor of

(17:01):
different violences, that it'salways gonna trigger me

SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
in

SPEAKER_02 (17:06):
some way, shape or form.
It's gonna trigger some memoryof some violence that I
experienced somewhere else, evenif it has no correlation.
So it's always gonna digsomething up.
and I'm gonna have to understandwhat that is.
I'm gonna have to take time tounpack that.

(17:26):
So I'm gonna have to take careof like little me and big me.
So I've learned that there aresteps I have to take.
And so it's almost like a triagesituation that when it happens
in teaching and it's happened alot and it's happened often
enough that I know what thetriage formula is now.

(17:49):
which is find your listener,talk about it out loud, but also
find time to take care of big meand also the little me that is
remembering other things thathave happened.

SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
I think the suspend judgment is so important and so
difficult to do and to findsomeone who will sit in that
nonjudgmental space with youwhile you take care of big
Christine and little Christine.
Next, what healings have youwitnessed or received in

(18:29):
teaching or the teaching life?

SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
I've witnessed students really accept
themselves for who they are andnot who they want to be.

SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
And

SPEAKER_02 (18:56):
I think that that is one of the deepest forms of
healing that I've witnessed.
So many of us come from familiesor places where we're always
reaching for the person we wantto become or are told we have to
become to bring everybody elsealong with us because we have to
save everyone, bring everybodyup.

(19:18):
And that's such a weight.
But there are moments where wecan just kind of take that off,
that weight off and just acceptus for who we are in the moment
and not for everything we haveto become for everybody else.
And in that one moment, thatsense of relief, when you see
that come over and wash oversomeone, it's like this

(19:41):
priceless moment of healing.
And when you can hold that spaceand when you also witness other
people watching and witnessingthat, Co-witnessing that,
holding space for someone elseto experience that, it's really
sacred.
And I think those moments aresome of the most beautiful.
And it's powerful because itcould happen anywhere, anytime,

(20:04):
in any curricula, in any class.

SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
That's it.
So it is for me, thequintessential aha moment,
right?
We teach for the aha moments, atleast trying to get out of the
way when the aha moments aretrying to happen.
And so when we can witness thatkind of aha moment happening,
right?
I do, I mean, I agree with you.
It is a sense of the holy.

(20:31):
It is a sense of the sacred.
It is the presence of thedivine,

SPEAKER_01 (20:34):
right?

SPEAKER_00 (20:35):
Whether you teach in a confessional location or a
non-confessional location, it isan amazing thing to be a part
of.

SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:45):
Next, what have you enjoyed most about the teaching
life?

SPEAKER_02 (20:51):
I have enjoyed the most that I never have all the
answers.
The reason why I love teachingthis subject that I teach,
right?
Spirituality and religion andinterreligious education and
education is because I'm neversupposed to have all the

(21:15):
answers.
And I think I love that themost.
There's a reason why I hatemath.
The reason is because there's ananswer.
the the the concretizing of likethe singular answer always
bothered me how can there be oneanswer what do you mean what do
you mean there's you know such aprecise thing I think the

(21:40):
multiplicity and the multitudeis so beautiful to me um and I
love that about teaching that Ican come back to the same book
or come back to the samesyllabus or come back to even
the same students in differentclasses and the answers are
always different and thequestions are always different.
And yeah, it's always a surpriseand it's lovely each time.

SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
Last question.
At the conclusion of yourteaching career, so in the next
30 or 40 years, what miracleswill you have performed?

SPEAKER_02 (22:16):
in the last 30 or 40 years?

SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
And then, well, anytime during your teaching

SPEAKER_02 (22:21):
career.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
Giving yourself years from now to still...

SPEAKER_02 (22:28):
Okay.
I think I will have become...
a more deeply grounded humanbeing that teaches with much

(22:55):
more porosity where theclassroom is an incredibly
unboundaried place where I don'tsee the classroom walls anymore,
but it just becomes wherever Iam And I also don't see the

(23:17):
lines anymore between teacherand student in any distinct way.
And I would love to experiencethat where I really feel like
I'm just in the world as ateacher slash learner and
experience other people in everyspace in that way, regardless of

(23:41):
who they are.
And I feel like if I canperceive in that way, that is a
miracle.

SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
Yeah.
I mean, it almost sounds likeyou're saying to lean into and
grow into your own humanity isthe miracle, right?
That's fantastic, right?
When I can become my mostunafraid humanness, then the
miracle is abundant.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (24:14):
Thank you.
Thank you for this conversation.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for invitingme to it.
To our listeners, we encourageyou to subscribe to the Wabash
Center newsletters.
Look to our newsletters forinformation concerning our
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workshops.
Also, a special thanks to soundengineer Paul Myrie and podcast

(24:37):
producer Rachel Mills.
The music which frames ourSilhouette podcast is the
original composition of PaulMyrie.
Wabash Center for more than 30years is exclusively funded by
Lilly Endowment Incorporated.
And we are out.
How was that, Paul?

UNKNOWN (24:52):
Thank you.