Jesse D. Mann: Silhouette Interview

Jesse D. Mann is Theological Librarian with Drew University. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello, I am Nancy Lynn Westfield, Director of the
Wabash Center.
Welcome to Dialogue on Teaching,a Silhouette Interview.
The Silhouette Conversations aresparked from a list of
standardized questions.
We have the good fortune to hearfirsthand from teaching
exemplars about their teachingand teaching life.

(00:22):
Today, our Silhouette guest isDr.
Jesse D.
Mann.
Dr.
Mann is theological librarianwith Drew University.
Welcome, Jesse, to theconversation.
Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Thank you.
Good to see you, and thank youfor the invitation.

SPEAKER_01 (00:36):
You're very welcome.
Let's get started.
Question one.
When you were a child, what didyou want to be when you grew up?

SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Oh, I wanted to be a marine biologist.
And I had these great dreams ofgoing either to the West Coast
or to Cape Cod.
There was an institute, I thinkassociated with MIT, and it may
still be there, that offeredsome kind of degree program in

(01:06):
marine biology.
And I was fascinated by it.
So

SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
you like fish?
You like the ocean?

SPEAKER_00 (01:11):
I like to swim.
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
like to swim.
And theological librarian is nota marine biologist.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
No, different animals, that's for sure.
But at the time, I think it wasalso because I was a fan of John
Steinbeck.
And, you know, one of hisprincipal characters is Doc,
who's a marine biologist inMonterey.
And I was fascinated by thatfigure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
Okay, all right.
Question two, who was proud ofyou when you went into...
So the directions or thequestions are about teaching.
You're a theological librarian.
And I think there's not muchspace between teaching and
theological librarian.
And I also know, the listenersdon't, I also know, you teach

(01:59):
classes regularly at DrewTheological Seminary and Drew
University.
So when you hear teacher, findyour way...
toward whether you want toanswer as a librarian or as a
faculty person or just thegroovy guy that you are.

SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
Sure.

SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Okay.
Question two.
Who was proud of you when youbecame a teacher?

SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Oh, that's easy.
My sister.
I have two sisters, but mymiddle sister has just retired
from teaching high schooloutside of Albany.
But she'd been a high schoolEnglish teacher for 35 years.
And she loves the profession andshe was pleased that I was also

(02:43):
involved in teaching in a moreovert way than I've been in the
past.

SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
What's her name?

SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
Amy Mann.

SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Amy Mann.
Hi, Amy Mann.
Number three.

SPEAKER_00 (02:53):
She was a great teacher.
I've always wanted to be as gooda teacher as she was.

SPEAKER_01 (02:59):
That's sweet.
What's the best thing yourmother taught you?

SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Oh, Lynn, how much time do you have?
I lost my mother two years ago.
I think about her every day.
I live here because she livednearby.
And I think she taught me to bea decent person.
I'm not sure that I've fulfilledthat, but she gave me a sense of
what that means.

(03:25):
And particularly these days,because there's so much
indecency, one can't help butreflect on those who just exuded
that sense of what it meant tobe a decent and honest and
upright person.

SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
What's her name?

SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
Carol Mann.

SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
Carol

SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Mann.

SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
Did I ever meet your mom?
A face comes to mind when youtalk about your mom.

SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
You might have.
I would wheel her over here oncein a while.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
I think I met her.
I think I met her.

SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
She was a formidable person.

SPEAKER_01 (03:56):
She lived in Morristown, right?
I remember where she lived.
Who has influenced your teachingfor the better?

SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
Oh, several people.
In college, I had a teachernamed Harry Booth who taught
religion.
He didn't publish much, but hewas a great teacher and he
taught me and others how toread.
That is, I remember him takingthe documents of Vatican II and

(04:27):
we read Gaudium et Spes very,very carefully.
And I had never read like thatbefore.
And I...
try to do something similar whenit's appropriate to the kinds of
things I teach.
So he would be one person.
I had another teacher in collegenamed Robert Sider, who was a

(04:47):
philologist and was also acareful reader, but a person
attentive to language.
And I tried to emulate that.
And in graduate school, I had ateacher who had and Konstantin
Fesold, who had respect for thesubject.

(05:08):
And I've tried to communicatethat, especially because
sometimes I teach esotericthings.
And to model enthusiasm for thesubject for people who think
only a crazy person would beinterested in this, I think
that's been somewhat effectivein those three people.
But, you know, there have beenpeople here.

(05:28):
You would be one of them.
Tracy West would be one of them.
People who also incorporatedthat same sense of decency that
I mentioned a few minutes ago inthe classroom, who recognized
that teaching is not justsubject matter, but much more
than that.

SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Nice.
What has surprised you aboutteaching or the teaching line?

SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
Oh, I don't know if it's a great surprise, but...
There are two sides to it.
One is how little I know and howmuch students know in different
ways, especially now here atDrew where we have an increasing
number of internationalstudents.
This was even before thatdevelopment, that is the

(06:14):
increase in internationalstudents.
It's the experience of workingwith people whose life
experience is so different frommy own.
That came as a surprise and avery positive and happy one.

SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
What's a favorite nickname by which you were
called by a loved one?

SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
That's funny.
So my spouse of almost 40 yearsand I usually speak to each
other in German because she'sGerman.
And the Germans have all sortsof sweet names.
We never use any of them.

SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
I was about to be mellow there.

SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
I could rattle off, you know, 10 of them, but I
don't think we ever used them.
Not

SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
ever

SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
used.
Okay, not so,

SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Jesse.

SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
You have no nicknames.
Really, almost none.

SPEAKER_01 (07:13):
What do your children call you?
Oh,

SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
they call me Papa.
P-A-P-A.
But I have a granddaughter whocalls me Pop.
And I very much like that.
The one syllable is crisp,right?
Yes.
Easy to pronounce.

SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Easy to spell, right?
Good for cards.
What profession, other thanteaching, would you like to
attempt?
Now, you've had many careersover your life.
So I'm not asking about the pastcareers, although you could
rattle those off for thelisteners if you wanted to.
But now, moving forward into thefuture, if you could...
decide what would you want to donext?

SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
So there maybe there's three.
Well, yeah.
So I've always been interestedin law and because I think law
right now is both a means ofsalvation and also our undoing.
I somewhat like to have studiedthat, not from the historical

(08:18):
point of view solely, butactually from the practitioner's
point of view.
So there's that.
Because I do think it canactually do some good.
So that would be one.
I'd like to be a mathematician.
Okay.
I just think that would be themost fascinating thing.

(08:40):
And for those of us who spend alot of time with abstract
thought, mathematics is theheight of abstraction.
I'm probably not good enough atit.
But that's maybe why I'd like todo it as a challenge.
Music is

SPEAKER_01 (08:56):
math, right?
You're asking to be a musician.
Music is math.

SPEAKER_00 (09:00):
Well, yeah.
Oh, now maybe it's four.
I'd love to be a pianist.
And there was always a piano inthe house I grew up in.
Piano, which had belonged to mygrandmother, moved with my
father across this country andeven to Hawaii and then

(09:22):
disappeared.
He sold it at some odd moment.
And I sat on it and played it,but poorly.
And I could imagine how thebeauty of playing it well.
And people in our house did playit well.
And I admired them, but neverdid it.

(09:43):
And then lastly, because I wasvery fond of my father-in-law,
who was an engineer at a nuclearresearch center in Switzerland,
I'd like to be a physicist.
I can see that, actually.
That makes sense to me.
It's just theology, you know,with other vocabulary.
And that would really beinteresting.

(10:03):
I think you would do

SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
that well, right?
You would do that very well.
Next, do you enjoy writing inlonghand?
And if so, what is yourpreference of ink pen or writing
utensil?

SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
Oh, that is the best question.
And I had just tons of examplesall over the place.
I could hold up many.
So I only write in longhand.
I cannot compose on thecomputer.
So anything I write is firstwritten out by hand.
And I have discovered in thelast year that Muji pens, a gel

(10:39):
ink ballpoint pen, 0.38, black,red, and blue.

SPEAKER_01 (10:47):
So for our listeners, he's reading off the
pen.
He's reading the trunk of thepen.

SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
They have just the greatest feel when writing, and
they flow so easily.
It compels one to write better.

SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
It is about the flow, isn't

SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
it?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
Next.
What's your superpower?

SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
Oh.
I think it's the recognitionthat I don't have one.
And maybe that's a cheesyanswer.
So I should improve it.
It's a willingness.
Maybe that's it.
It's a willingness to becorrected and try to...
improve upon correction.

SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Can I say one?
Can I say one?
Sure.
You're so humble, right?
So can I say one?
So Jesse, you know this aboutyourself, and I also know you
would never say this aboutyourself.
You are a genius, right?
And in scholarship, there arenot many geniuses running
around, right?
You have a cognitive dexteritythat is amazing to me.

SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
Well, it's very kind of you to say that, Lyndon.
It would be very difficult forme to agree with that.
That's because I think I'veknown geniuses, and I recognize
the difference.
But I do think there aredifferent kinds of genius.
Yes, there are.
That's

SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
absolutely

SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
right.

UNKNOWN (12:23):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
In a very limited sphere, I could say.
I do think it would be honest tosay I have some ability to
listen to people who, as Imentioned before, have life
experiences different from myown and assimilate them in some
way or at least engage with themin a meaningful way.

(12:46):
I don't know if that's asuperpower, but it's useful in
my job.

SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Number 10 is our infamous question.
Think long and hard before youanswer number 10.
Perhaps buckle up.
Number 10.
What's your favorite cuss word?
Oh,

SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
that's truly funny.
Is this for like a familybroadcast?
Or am I allowed to say thewords?

SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
We'll go up to

SPEAKER_00 (13:14):
R.

SPEAKER_01 (13:16):
Well, ours is pretty loose now, considering what's on
TV and movies.

SPEAKER_00 (13:21):
I'm just reminded that when I was a bookseller for
many years, I had a colleague, afamily friend, who would
occasionally tell me that hisfavorite word was a four-letter
word that ends in K and meansintercourse.

SPEAKER_01 (13:40):
Yes, we

SPEAKER_00 (13:40):
get it.
But he meant talk.

UNKNOWN (13:43):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
Yeah, boring.

SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
Clever is overrated.
I

SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
don't use those words very often.
But when I do, this is where mywife's language is helpful.
Scheiße is a great word.
It's a great German word thatyou probably know the meaning
of.
And I do like it.
It's kind of onomatopoetic.

(14:10):
And when you use words likethat, you know, you want them,
you want your whole body to gowith it, not just the word.
No,

SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
no, in

SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
those moments.
Yes, I

SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
get it, I

SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
get it.
So scheisse is a good one.
Now I've said it twice, sothat's probably it.
We'll be banned from theairwaves.

SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
We're good, we're good, we're good.
Number 11.
How have you survived certainviolences of teaching?

SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Oh.
That's in some ways difficultbecause unlike so many other
people you've probablyinterviewed, I've not been the
object of a great deal ofviolence for obvious reasons in
some ways.
But I think all teachers, allpeople with classroom experience

(14:59):
occasionally encounteradministrators who don't have
classroom experience and so comeup with crazy plans ideas about
the classroom that are not basedin the experience of the
classroom.
And there is a kind of violence,though I think it's really more
stupidity, that blocks teacherswith classroom experience from

(15:22):
doing their thing as well asthey can.
And I think most teachers havehad that experience in some way,
not just in higher ed, but maybeeven more in secondary and
elementary school teaching.
And that's a kind of violence,but it's It's violence that's
based on ignorance.

(15:43):
Maybe most violence is.
That would be the most strikingthing for me.
I've been remarkably free fromthat for the most part.
But it does come up.
It does.
It does.

SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
Next.
What healings have you witnessedor received in teaching or the
teaching line?

SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
Oh, it's so numerous.
It's hard to even know where tostart.
I can say without hesitationthat without the students and
colleagues at this specificinstitution during the first
Trump administration, and nowagain, I'm not sure I could have

(16:24):
endured it in some sense, butthe commitment of at least some
colleagues to a real sense ofjustice at institutions and in
society has been remarkablyuplifting.
And the optimism of our studentsin the face of incredible
violence is aimed at them often,but at the larger society is so

(16:48):
uplifting.
And in a way it just compels oneto think beyond the self and to
recognize the importance and thevalue of what they're doing,
it's been a thrill.
And it's made this job just themost joyous.

SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Which is the next question.
What do you enjoy most about theteaching life?

SPEAKER_00 (17:14):
Yeah, it's pretty much what I've just said.
Because it's always about thepeople in some ways.
Of course, it's the subjectmatter.
I mean, I love to read.
And the teaching life providesyou with the opportunity to do
that, and they pay you for it.
It's mind-blowing.
It's true.

(17:34):
So there is that, but it'sultimately the exchange with
others.
Sometimes those others are onthe printed page or on the
screen, but sometimes they're inthe room or they're on the Zoom
with you.
And that is the best, you know,the ideas and the people.

SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
So this is the last question, question number 14.
Give it a chance.
Don't just say, not me.
So here's the question.
At the conclusion of yourteaching career, a long, long
time from now, 50, 80 years,what miracles will you have
performed?

SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
Well, I'm tempted to say, and maybe will say, Getting
a few students out of theseinstitutions who probably should
never have been here to beginwith.
But I don't know if that wasjust a miracle.
Throw them across the graduationstage.
That was more like an expressionof duty than

SPEAKER_01 (18:37):
miracle.
That's an Atlas image, right?
Throw them across the stage.

SPEAKER_00 (18:43):
That was a good deed, not a miracle.

SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
A day in the life.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
That's also hard for me to say.
If miracle means some kind ofintervention that upsets the
normal course of things, I thinkthat would be showing people
here and here, I mean, at thisinstitution, that librarians and

(19:13):
libraries have more to offerthan they might have assumed.
And that's perhaps miraculous.

SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
So I believe that, right?
Wabash Center has beencultivating, will continue to
cultivate and grow.
It started small, but it willgrow.
A project for theologicallibrarians here at the Wabash
Center.
And your influence of me and myknowledge of librarians and the
role and responsibilities oflibrarian is the primary reason
why I know to go in thatdirection.

(19:46):
So thank you, Jesse D.
Mann.

SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
Well, thank you.
I wouldn't mind if you hadanother 14 questions.

SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Next time.
We'll bring you back for parttwo.
Thank you, Jesse.
Thank you very much for theopportunity.
To our listeners, we encourageyou to subscribe to our
newsletters.
In our newsletters, you'll findinformation about our workshops,
our educational resources, aswell as our re-granting program.
A special thanks to soundengineer Paul Myrie and to our

(20:19):
podcast producer, Rachel Mills.
The music which frames theSilhouette podcast is the
original composition of PaulMyrie.
Wabash Center for more than 30years is exclusively funded by
Lilly Endowment Incorporated.
And we are out.
How was that, Paul?