June 19, 2025 • 27 mins
Tat-siong Benny Liew, Ph.D. is Professor, Class of 1956 Chair in New Testament Studies at Holy Cross College.
In this rich and reflective conversation, Dr. Nancy Lynne Westfield and Dr. Tat-siong Benny Liew explore the complexities of mentoring within academic and theological contexts. They discuss mentoring as a relational, communal, and intergenerational practice rather than a top-down, ego-driven model. Emphasizing listening over advice-giving, they critique hierarchical approaches and advocate for mutual, organic relationships built on trust and care. Both speakers highlight the importance of multiple mentors across one’s career, including peer and reverse mentoring, and the vital role mentoring plays in sustaining intellectual and theological traditions. The episode concludes with reflections on mentoring as a form of invisible labor and collective responsibility to nurture future scholars.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:06):
Welcome to Dialogue on Teaching, Wabash Center's
podcast series.
I am Nancy Lynn Westfield,director of the Wabash Center.
Paul Myhre is our soundengineer.
It is my great pleasure towelcome to the conversation Dr.
Tatseon Benny Liu, class of 1956professor in New Testament,
College of Holy Cross inWorcester, Massachusetts.
Welcome, Benny, to theconversation.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
Great to be with you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
So we wanna talk about, particularly in this time
of high anxiety, right?
The notion of mentoring, right?
So we mentor early careerscholars, we mentor students, we
need to be mentored ourselves,right?
I'm gonna say as a late careerperson, I still have mentors.
So we're not just talking aboutthe issues and the networking
(00:53):
needs and the relational needsof early career people, we're
talking about at all the stagesof our careers.
I completely agree.
The need for mentors.
So tell me about your approachto mentoring.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
My approach to mentoring, I think it is mainly
about relationship.
It's mainly about understanding.
It's mainly about expectations.
I think for me, it's importantthat I don't assume that I know
everything.
That as a mentor, it's not justto give advice.
(01:25):
and to tell people what to do orto be, quote unquote, a role
model so they can follow yourfootsteps.
I think mentoring really isabout having that relationship
that you can have trust, thatyou can build space to help
people think about what theywant to be, who they want to be,
(01:50):
what they want to be.
That's mainly how I understandit.
And when I am mentored by othersmyself, at least that's also
what I would desire.
What about you?
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Well, I think one of the deadliest things we do to
ourselves and to other people isto think that the scholarship of
teaching is about isolation andindividualism.
So mentoring and the assumptionof the need for a mentor is you
know, flies in the face of allthis individualism.
And I did it myself.
I, you know, I make mycontribution too.
(02:28):
It moves closer to a we and anours and a more communal
understanding about whateffective scholarship is.
How do you teach effectively?
You stay in conversation.
You stay in dialogue.
You...
approach people who look likethey might be in need, because
I've had that experience.
You also seek out help frompeople who might have more
(02:50):
insight, more perspective, moreunderstanding about what's going
on.
When I took this job at Wabash,I actually called a senior
scholar and asked for mentoring,and I received it.
I also received a call from asenior scholar that said, In
effect, though she didn't saythese words, I know you're going
(03:11):
to need some help.
So I am here if you need me.
Both of those approaches werelife-saving to me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
Excellent.
So it's more like a communalnetwork of support.
I would add to that, in additionto the problem of individualism,
I am very worried about anunderstanding of mentoring that
is egoistic.
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
That
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
is to say that a mentor or I as a mentor or my
mentor thinks that I knoweverything or she knows
everything.
And the idea is simply, youknow, I'm telling you what to do
or you are telling me what todo.
I think that is also a very badunderstanding.
(03:57):
Well, maybe I should not saythat.
At least that's not myunderstanding of mentoring.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
I think when I'm looking for a mentor, the
primary thing I'm looking for isnot advice, but somebody to
listen to me.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:13):
So the egoistic thing is not helpful because I
actually know what my choicesare, right?
Because I've been in thebusiness long enough.
I know my choices.
I need you to listen to me whileI work some stuff through.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
But that is great because I have met some younger
people uh scholars when theystarted out they had that
understanding of mentoring rightyou have been there you know
what is the right way you tellme what to do what should i do
what should i do and you alwaysi always have to end up turning
it around and kind of like whatwould you want right i can ask
(04:49):
questions but i really love whatyou said about it is more about
answer listening than answering
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
So it's not, let's continue to talk about what it's
not.
It's not therapy.
It's not counseling.
It's not even pastoring people,right?
I'm not there as your mentor.
I'm not there as your pastor,right?
And in fields of religion,sometimes we can fall into or
blur those boundaries where webegin to pastor that person
(05:17):
under the guise of mentoring.
That's not our role either, thatmentoring is a discrete thing,
right?
It is its own thing.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Yeah.
It is interesting.
I don't know if you know this,Lynn, that there's a really
well-known feminist scholar whohas mentored many, many young
women scholars.
She does not like this termmentor at all.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
What does she use instead?
SPEAKER_00 (05:44):
I do not know what she used instead, but because
she's a New Testament, she wentback to Odyssey where this term
appeared.
It appeared because it's calledmentoring because Odysseus, when
he left to fight a Trojan war,he left his family, had a young
son, and he asked his friend totake care of his young son.
(06:07):
And his friend's name is Mentor.
And that's- So for her, this iswhere that term came from.
But it came from a situation ofa father abandoning the family
to fight a war.
That's why she does not like it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
So that makes sense to me.
I don't want it to be aboutpeople who have been abandoned
or bereft or left off somewhere.
So that's understandable.
I do think...
when we do challenge ourselvesto move past advice giving
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
that
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
it becomes more difficult.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
It does because again that's why I said when you
first asked me how I understoodmentoring I said it's about
relationship understanding andexpectation.
I think between the mentor andthe mentee that expectation has
to be clear, right?
If you're expecting me to giveyou advice, tell you what to do,
(07:13):
I would not be able to deliver.
Now that is not to say there arenot some time when I need to
give advice.
When sometimes I see someonegoing the wrong way, I may have
to say, but that's not whatmentoring is mainly about.
Giving advice and telling peoplewhat to do, giving warnings,
(07:33):
that will only be a small partof mentoring.
At times you need that, but itshould not be what mentoring is
about.
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
So do you mentor the way you were mentored or do you
mentor because you weren'tmentored well?
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
I think I have both.
I think I have both.
So maybe in my vocabulary, Iwould say I have both.
both excellent mentors whomentor the way I desire to
mentor, but I also have mentorswho tend to be more imperative.
You do this, you do that, right?
So, and most of the time, as Ithink about it, I did not follow
(08:11):
the instructions.
And I realized that that's notwhat mentoring should be.
And then you begin to feelfunny, right?
Should I still keep thatrelationship?
Did I offend that person?
It just would not work.
And
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
from the ego-driven model, yes, you did offend the
person when you didn't do whatthey told you to do.
SPEAKER_00 (08:31):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
And it's likely that they will terminate the
relationship so you don't haveto, right?
Because their contract is youwill do what I tell you to do.
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
If you don't listen to me, why am I mentoring you?
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
If there's a pattern, and there might not be,
Benny, if there's a pattern forearly career people or in your
mentoring, what kinds of thingsdo people get stymied by and
need you to listen to themabout?
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
I think a lot of things have to do some of it is
quite mundane and routine.
That would be less fun, at leastfor me, right?
Searching for jobs.
What should I do for aninterview?
How do I negotiate salary?
Those things are actually morelike advice and telling you do
(09:21):
this, don't do that, that kindof stuff.
The other big thing would berelational.
A lot of politics of theacademy.
People struggle with that.
How should I deal with this?
How should I deal with thatperson, that student?
And some of that, which is themost difficult one for me, would
(09:43):
be career orientation.
Should I stay in the field?
Should I do this kind ofscholarship?
should I pursue this kind ofcareer, like going to be
administrator or whatnot?
Those are the most difficultmentoring that I have
experienced because those arereally, you're just helping the
(10:03):
person to discern what do theywant.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
Yeah.
So the life decisions part,right?
I've taken the job now.
I don't know how to negotiatethe salary.
I still think that that is lifedecisions.
And I also wanna, I always wannatell people, go look at our,
blogs and our podcasts where wetell people how to negotiate
these things in a customconversation.
(10:27):
But I have similar experienceswith you that the more
interesting conversations andthe more challenging
conversations are about thepolitics of the institution
they're finding themselves in.
And sometimes that's relationaland it's always relational, but
sometimes it's so sharplypolitical.
Right.
And when people So I help peoplelearn to read their context, not
(10:48):
answer the question because Idon't know the context
SPEAKER_00 (10:51):
most of the time.
So I
SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
can't answer specifically, but I can tell
them what to look for, how todiscern, what kinds of questions
to ask.
But then also pushing past thattoo, people find themselves
making ethical decisions.
When the politics gets short andsharp, they move into ethical
decision-making, like what aretheir own values?
What's their own character?
(11:14):
Can their conscious let them dowhatever it is they're being
pressed upon to do?
Now, those are the mostdifficult conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
That's exactly why the kind of mentoring we talked
about as an unhealthy kind wouldnot work, right?
Because you have to rememberthat person is not you.
Your mentee is not you.
And there are so many factors inthat mentee's life that you may
not be aware of, and hence theneed to ask questions.
UNKNOWN (11:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So people are often surprised when, and I've heard
you say this, I've certainlysaid it, you need more than one
mentor,
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (11:52):
Even out of the model that we're espousing, you
should have more than one personwho's helping you navigate, say
more about why that's soimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
I think several reasons.
I think first of all, mentoringis really an organic
relationship, right?
People change, people change,you change, I change, we grow in
different ways.
So one mentor that works for youat one stage would not
necessarily work at anotherstage of your life and your
career.
(12:21):
That's one reason.
Another reason is every singlementor is limited by their
perspectives, by theirexperiences, by their way of
knowing how to ask questions.
So there may be questions Icannot think of that a person
who have different experiencesmay ask.
I do not even know how to ask.
(12:43):
So all of that is just helpfulto have more than one
perspective, have more than onementor.
And again, it also goes back towhat you talked about, that
mentoring is this communalnetwork thing.
It's not me as the sage, as theone who knows everything,
guiding you throughout yourlife.
(13:05):
It really is a group process.
And actually, in some ways, thebest kind of mentoring, I should
say one of the best kind ofmentoring actually is kind of
peer mentoring, right?
You mentor me, I mentor you,because we're just bouncing
ideas out of one another to helpeach other discern, to make the
(13:25):
right decision as we see it.
So that kind of mentoringactually is also very important.
And so you cannot just depend onone person.
Well, after all, don't forget,one day, every one of us will be
gone.
If you just have one mentor, itjust would not work.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
And even into retirement, right?
Are we going to ask mentors tocome out of retirement if you've
got that one mentor?
I have also begun to, because Iam getting closer and closer to
retirement, moving intomentoring relationships with
people, not who are my peers asin the stage of career, but
younger, early career peopleasking them for their
(14:07):
discernment for my work, right?
So that's still, that's a kindof mentoring as well.
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you really need a village ofmentors because again, no mentor
knows everything.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
And there's also a way that you cannot hear what is
always being said.
So I oftentimes look forpatterns about what is being
said.
That
SPEAKER_00 (14:34):
is a very good point.
If I'm
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
making big decisions, right?
It's not just the one lightningbolt moment.
But let me kind of ask severalwise people, regardless of where
they are in their careers, tohear how I might maneuver.
SPEAKER_00 (14:50):
That is a very good point because sometimes I may
resist hearing certain things.
But if Lin tells me this,another person tells me this,
another person tells me this, orthey keep on asking the same
kind of question, then I reallyknow, wow, I really have to
think about that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:08):
Yeah.
And maybe even do it, but atleast when I would resist
thinking about it before I heardit from several locations.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
Right.
So
SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
the person seeking mentoring has to be not
right-seeking, right?
So people will come for adviceto be mentored or to be listened
to, but already knowing whatthey think they're going to do
rather than being open tohearing what's possible right
it's hard to mentor a person whois closed
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
exactly i have i have experience with one person
in particular who basically isnot really open to what anybody
has to ask anybody has to sayand this is a situation actually
it's quite sad because there areAnd I was not the only person
(15:58):
who was working with thisperson, but everybody came to
the same conclusion.
This particular person reallywas not able to hear questions
or entertain differentpossibilities.
This person has the mind madeup, right?
So this clearly would not workin terms of mentoring
(16:20):
relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
I've had more than one time since directing the
center, getting what I wouldcall formal emails from people
asking to move into a mentoringrelationship.
And I've always turned thosedown because as you said, these
relationships are organic,right?
You don't kind of hire a mentor.
(16:42):
or a person that you don't bumpup against in some kind of way.
It's much more intimate thanthat.
There is an intimacy inmentoring, being mentored and
mentoring someone.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
I don't think there's a designated mentor.
I mean, it all depends on themoment, depends on the question.
The sad thing about this, nowthat we talked about it, the sad
thing about this particularperson I was thinking about, the
person is no longer in thefield.
no longer in the academy.
And it's not because I want thatperson to do what I think this
(17:19):
person should do.
It's that the person basicallyin some way, for lack of a
better term, self-destructbecause the inability to
consider other options, otherpossibilities.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
So I always trust people to get where they need to
go even if it's out of theacademy even if they bump their
way out you know what i meanlike in that scenario i would
say one of the reasons why theperson is trying not to take the
advice because they're trying toget out you know what i mean so
(17:59):
if that person ended up out ithink they were trying to figure
out a way to get out
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
It could be, it could be, yeah.
And again, it goes back to whatthat person really wants, at
least in rhetoric, that personcame across as really want to be
in the academy.
So maybe you were right, maybedeep down that person wanted out
and then they...
work it out in a way that theyare no longer there.
I have not been in touch withthe person now, but I hope the
(18:26):
person is happy.
SPEAKER_01 (18:28):
That's right, that's right.
So one of the questions I oftenask in mentoring is, in
different kind of ways, kind oflike, what do you want?
Invariably, the
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
person doesn't know.
Right, right.
But that is okay, that is okay.
I think then you just keep onraising different questions,
right?
but now that we talked about iwant to ask you a question yes
when would you know how wouldyou know that somebody should
not be your mentor have you hadexperience that somebody came
(19:03):
across as really wanting tomentor you and you kind of like
check no not you
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
So they wanted me to be the mentee or the mentor?
SPEAKER_00 (19:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They wanted me to be the mentee.
SPEAKER_01 (19:16):
Yes.
I've had that experience.
How would you know?
Because I didn't have aresonance with the person.
Because I didn't feel cared forby the person.
And it was somebody who I was inproximity with.
I was a colleague that I knew,but it was not a colleague that
(19:38):
I had a resonance with.
But we know when we feel caredabout, we know when we feel
seen, we know when we feelappreciated.
I didn't feel any of thosethings from the person who then
volunteered to mentor me.
To which case I said as politelyas my mother has taught me to
(20:00):
say, no, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (20:04):
Have you experienced people who come across as really
want to mentor you?
I think that would be my signal.
If someone came across toostrongly, like, you know, I can
mentor you.
I want to mentor you.
I often feel funny about that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
I don't think I've ever said that to anybody.
I've had that experience twicein my career.
And both times it was said, whatI heard was, I want something
from you.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
And
SPEAKER_01 (20:35):
both times I said, no, thank you.
You know what I mean?
Seriously, no.
Like I didn't, it wasn't, Iwasn't wondering, oh, what
should I do?
Oh, maybe I should considerthis.
Oh, this is a person of stature.
I trust my gut, right?
I trust my own intuition.
I trusted my experience of boththese people.
(20:57):
And they were not people who Itrusted.
So I don't need to like secondguess myself or wonder or even
check them out by other people,right?
You know, sometimes you do that.
You're not sure.
Let me ask other people whatthey, in both of these
instances, no, not for
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
me.
I asked that question because itwent back to what we talked
about earlier, right?
I think when people came acrosslike that, their understanding
of mentoring often was I was thesage.
I was the role model.
You do what I want you to do.
I kind of like take you underwell i would say his wings i had
experienced that once and irealized wow that from now on i
(21:38):
watch out for people they'recoming across too eagerly to
mentor me i was like no i'mgonna keep some distance
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
yeah yeah no it's never and i'm trying to think i
don't know that i've ever saidto anybody even though i thought
it I don't think I've said, letme tell this person I want to
mentor them.
You know what I mean?
I don't.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think that would beright.
It's all organic.
That's right.
That's right.
Actually, most of the time younever even use that term.
mentoring right so we go back tothat term you just have that
relationship that's it peoplemay come to you you talk you
both enjoy it and then you knowthe person may go to someone
(22:21):
else i may go to someone elseit's never like would you be my
mentor i mean i don't think iever asked that question
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
it's not something you put on your cv right mentor
entered by vinnie lou likenobody nobody does that
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
i do think it's important it does go back to
what you say about the communalpart, right?
I think you and I are bothinvested in changing the academy
and our discipline in some ways.
And if we're really going to dothat, it has to be a community.
Again, one of these days I willbe gone, but I want this kind of
(22:57):
minoritized theologicaltradition to continue.
And the only way it can continueis that we put different
generations together.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
we put them together and we have them listen to one
another right and like you saidnot the ego thing put them
together so the elders can tellthem how to continue the
traditions but we put themtogether so they can talk about
what's needed to build a betterfuture
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
yeah and that will be another term i think it's
important to keep in the mix thecommunal part should be
generational
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
yeah i absolutely agree with that So we've
started, you know, we do peermentoring grants, have done
those for years.
We also have started and willcontinue to do intergenerational
grants for the very reasons thatwe're talking about, that the
generations can't stay siloedaway from each other.
They have to be in conversationwith each other, in relationship
(23:50):
with each other.
And
SPEAKER_00 (23:52):
good mentors do a lot of things that mentees don't
know about.
Yeah.
I have, I know people who havehelped me.
They, Help me in different waysI simply do not know about.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
And you're not supposed to know because we're
in rooms that you don't knowabout.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
And we can mention your names in places that you
can't go.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
But that's one of the payoffs of being mentored.
But that's also one of theinvisible labors of being a
mentor, right?
That you're taking your menteesinto rooms where without those
relationships, they wouldn't beon the tip of your brain.
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
Exactly.
And that is another reason whymentoring really is about a
network, right?
I know I have networks and youhave network.
You might have helped me in someway that I never even knew
about.
And that's the precious thing.
I mean, because when you do thiskind of work, you really are not
looking for award, looking forrecognition.
(24:51):
You're really trying to buildthe other person up.
UNKNOWN (24:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:55):
And you're trying to build the person up, but you're
also trying to get the workdone, right?
You need certain people incertain places because the work
is important, right?
The work of scholarship and thescholarship of religion is
important to the larger society.
So we need good people in theright places to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
Yeah, it has to go to do with what I said earlier,
that kind of intellectualtradition, the theological
tradition that we want to build.
And that has to be generational.
That has to be a communaltradition.
than all of them.
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
Thank you, Dr.
Bu.
Come back anytime.
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
It has been fun.
I enjoy speaking with youalways.
So thank you for your time.
SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
To our listeners, the Wabash Center website is the
place.
Look on our website forinformation about our workshops,
for information about ourregranting program, as well as
information about oureducational resources.
A special thanks to our podcastproducer, Rachel Mills, and the
music which frames our podcastis the original composition of
Paul Myrie.
Wabash Center for more than 30years is exclusively funded by
(26:00):
Lilly Endowment Incorporated.
And we are out.
How was that, Paul?
UNKNOWN (26:11):
Bye.
Welcome to Dialogue on Teaching, Wabash Center's
podcast series.
I am Nancy Lynn Westfield,director of the Wabash Center.
Paul Myhre is our soundengineer.
It is my great pleasure towelcome to the conversation Dr.
Tatseon Benny Liu, class of 1956professor in New Testament,
College of Holy Cross inWorcester, Massachusetts.
Welcome, Benny, to theconversation.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
Great to be with you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
So we wanna talk about, particularly in this time
of high anxiety, right?
The notion of mentoring, right?
So we mentor early careerscholars, we mentor students, we
need to be mentored ourselves,right?
I'm gonna say as a late careerperson, I still have mentors.
So we're not just talking aboutthe issues and the networking
(00:53):
needs and the relational needsof early career people, we're
talking about at all the stagesof our careers.
I completely agree.
The need for mentors.
So tell me about your approachto mentoring.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
My approach to mentoring, I think it is mainly
about relationship.
It's mainly about understanding.
It's mainly about expectations.
I think for me, it's importantthat I don't assume that I know
everything.
That as a mentor, it's not justto give advice.
(01:25):
and to tell people what to do orto be, quote unquote, a role
model so they can follow yourfootsteps.
I think mentoring really isabout having that relationship
that you can have trust, thatyou can build space to help
people think about what theywant to be, who they want to be,
(01:50):
what they want to be.
That's mainly how I understandit.
And when I am mentored by othersmyself, at least that's also
what I would desire.
What about you?
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Well, I think one of the deadliest things we do to
ourselves and to other people isto think that the scholarship of
teaching is about isolation andindividualism.
So mentoring and the assumptionof the need for a mentor is you
know, flies in the face of allthis individualism.
And I did it myself.
I, you know, I make mycontribution too.
(02:28):
It moves closer to a we and anours and a more communal
understanding about whateffective scholarship is.
How do you teach effectively?
You stay in conversation.
You stay in dialogue.
You...
approach people who look likethey might be in need, because
I've had that experience.
You also seek out help frompeople who might have more
(02:50):
insight, more perspective, moreunderstanding about what's going
on.
When I took this job at Wabash,I actually called a senior
scholar and asked for mentoring,and I received it.
I also received a call from asenior scholar that said, In
effect, though she didn't saythese words, I know you're going
(03:11):
to need some help.
So I am here if you need me.
Both of those approaches werelife-saving to me.
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
Excellent.
So it's more like a communalnetwork of support.
I would add to that, in additionto the problem of individualism,
I am very worried about anunderstanding of mentoring that
is egoistic.
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
That
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
is to say that a mentor or I as a mentor or my
mentor thinks that I knoweverything or she knows
everything.
And the idea is simply, youknow, I'm telling you what to do
or you are telling me what todo.
I think that is also a very badunderstanding.
(03:57):
Well, maybe I should not saythat.
At least that's not myunderstanding of mentoring.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
I think when I'm looking for a mentor, the
primary thing I'm looking for isnot advice, but somebody to
listen to me.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:13):
So the egoistic thing is not helpful because I
actually know what my choicesare, right?
Because I've been in thebusiness long enough.
I know my choices.
I need you to listen to me whileI work some stuff through.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
But that is great because I have met some younger
people uh scholars when theystarted out they had that
understanding of mentoring rightyou have been there you know
what is the right way you tellme what to do what should i do
what should i do and you alwaysi always have to end up turning
it around and kind of like whatwould you want right i can ask
(04:49):
questions but i really love whatyou said about it is more about
answer listening than answering
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
So it's not, let's continue to talk about what it's
not.
It's not therapy.
It's not counseling.
It's not even pastoring people,right?
I'm not there as your mentor.
I'm not there as your pastor,right?
And in fields of religion,sometimes we can fall into or
blur those boundaries where webegin to pastor that person
(05:17):
under the guise of mentoring.
That's not our role either, thatmentoring is a discrete thing,
right?
It is its own thing.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Yeah.
It is interesting.
I don't know if you know this,Lynn, that there's a really
well-known feminist scholar whohas mentored many, many young
women scholars.
She does not like this termmentor at all.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
What does she use instead?
SPEAKER_00 (05:44):
I do not know what she used instead, but because
she's a New Testament, she wentback to Odyssey where this term
appeared.
It appeared because it's calledmentoring because Odysseus, when
he left to fight a Trojan war,he left his family, had a young
son, and he asked his friend totake care of his young son.
(06:07):
And his friend's name is Mentor.
And that's- So for her, this iswhere that term came from.
But it came from a situation ofa father abandoning the family
to fight a war.
That's why she does not like it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
So that makes sense to me.
I don't want it to be aboutpeople who have been abandoned
or bereft or left off somewhere.
So that's understandable.
I do think...
when we do challenge ourselvesto move past advice giving
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
that
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
it becomes more difficult.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
It does because again that's why I said when you
first asked me how I understoodmentoring I said it's about
relationship understanding andexpectation.
I think between the mentor andthe mentee that expectation has
to be clear, right?
If you're expecting me to giveyou advice, tell you what to do,
(07:13):
I would not be able to deliver.
Now that is not to say there arenot some time when I need to
give advice.
When sometimes I see someonegoing the wrong way, I may have
to say, but that's not whatmentoring is mainly about.
Giving advice and telling peoplewhat to do, giving warnings,
(07:33):
that will only be a small partof mentoring.
At times you need that, but itshould not be what mentoring is
about.
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
So do you mentor the way you were mentored or do you
mentor because you weren'tmentored well?
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
I think I have both.
I think I have both.
So maybe in my vocabulary, Iwould say I have both.
both excellent mentors whomentor the way I desire to
mentor, but I also have mentorswho tend to be more imperative.
You do this, you do that, right?
So, and most of the time, as Ithink about it, I did not follow
(08:11):
the instructions.
And I realized that that's notwhat mentoring should be.
And then you begin to feelfunny, right?
Should I still keep thatrelationship?
Did I offend that person?
It just would not work.
And
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
from the ego-driven model, yes, you did offend the
person when you didn't do whatthey told you to do.
SPEAKER_00 (08:31):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
And it's likely that they will terminate the
relationship so you don't haveto, right?
Because their contract is youwill do what I tell you to do.
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
If you don't listen to me, why am I mentoring you?
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
If there's a pattern, and there might not be,
Benny, if there's a pattern forearly career people or in your
mentoring, what kinds of thingsdo people get stymied by and
need you to listen to themabout?
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
I think a lot of things have to do some of it is
quite mundane and routine.
That would be less fun, at leastfor me, right?
Searching for jobs.
What should I do for aninterview?
How do I negotiate salary?
Those things are actually morelike advice and telling you do
(09:21):
this, don't do that, that kindof stuff.
The other big thing would berelational.
A lot of politics of theacademy.
People struggle with that.
How should I deal with this?
How should I deal with thatperson, that student?
And some of that, which is themost difficult one for me, would
(09:43):
be career orientation.
Should I stay in the field?
Should I do this kind ofscholarship?
should I pursue this kind ofcareer, like going to be
administrator or whatnot?
Those are the most difficultmentoring that I have
experienced because those arereally, you're just helping the
(10:03):
person to discern what do theywant.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
Yeah.
So the life decisions part,right?
I've taken the job now.
I don't know how to negotiatethe salary.
I still think that that is lifedecisions.
And I also wanna, I always wannatell people, go look at our,
blogs and our podcasts where wetell people how to negotiate
these things in a customconversation.
(10:27):
But I have similar experienceswith you that the more
interesting conversations andthe more challenging
conversations are about thepolitics of the institution
they're finding themselves in.
And sometimes that's relationaland it's always relational, but
sometimes it's so sharplypolitical.
Right.
And when people So I help peoplelearn to read their context, not
(10:48):
answer the question because Idon't know the context
SPEAKER_00 (10:51):
most of the time.
So I
SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
can't answer specifically, but I can tell
them what to look for, how todiscern, what kinds of questions
to ask.
But then also pushing past thattoo, people find themselves
making ethical decisions.
When the politics gets short andsharp, they move into ethical
decision-making, like what aretheir own values?
What's their own character?
(11:14):
Can their conscious let them dowhatever it is they're being
pressed upon to do?
Now, those are the mostdifficult conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
That's exactly why the kind of mentoring we talked
about as an unhealthy kind wouldnot work, right?
Because you have to rememberthat person is not you.
Your mentee is not you.
And there are so many factors inthat mentee's life that you may
not be aware of, and hence theneed to ask questions.
UNKNOWN (11:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So people are often surprised when, and I've heard
you say this, I've certainlysaid it, you need more than one
mentor,
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (11:52):
Even out of the model that we're espousing, you
should have more than one personwho's helping you navigate, say
more about why that's soimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
I think several reasons.
I think first of all, mentoringis really an organic
relationship, right?
People change, people change,you change, I change, we grow in
different ways.
So one mentor that works for youat one stage would not
necessarily work at anotherstage of your life and your
career.
(12:21):
That's one reason.
Another reason is every singlementor is limited by their
perspectives, by theirexperiences, by their way of
knowing how to ask questions.
So there may be questions Icannot think of that a person
who have different experiencesmay ask.
I do not even know how to ask.
(12:43):
So all of that is just helpfulto have more than one
perspective, have more than onementor.
And again, it also goes back towhat you talked about, that
mentoring is this communalnetwork thing.
It's not me as the sage, as theone who knows everything,
guiding you throughout yourlife.
(13:05):
It really is a group process.
And actually, in some ways, thebest kind of mentoring, I should
say one of the best kind ofmentoring actually is kind of
peer mentoring, right?
You mentor me, I mentor you,because we're just bouncing
ideas out of one another to helpeach other discern, to make the
(13:25):
right decision as we see it.
So that kind of mentoringactually is also very important.
And so you cannot just depend onone person.
Well, after all, don't forget,one day, every one of us will be
gone.
If you just have one mentor, itjust would not work.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
And even into retirement, right?
Are we going to ask mentors tocome out of retirement if you've
got that one mentor?
I have also begun to, because Iam getting closer and closer to
retirement, moving intomentoring relationships with
people, not who are my peers asin the stage of career, but
younger, early career peopleasking them for their
(14:07):
discernment for my work, right?
So that's still, that's a kindof mentoring as well.
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you really need a village ofmentors because again, no mentor
knows everything.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
And there's also a way that you cannot hear what is
always being said.
So I oftentimes look forpatterns about what is being
said.
That
SPEAKER_00 (14:34):
is a very good point.
If I'm
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
making big decisions, right?
It's not just the one lightningbolt moment.
But let me kind of ask severalwise people, regardless of where
they are in their careers, tohear how I might maneuver.
SPEAKER_00 (14:50):
That is a very good point because sometimes I may
resist hearing certain things.
But if Lin tells me this,another person tells me this,
another person tells me this, orthey keep on asking the same
kind of question, then I reallyknow, wow, I really have to
think about that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:08):
Yeah.
And maybe even do it, but atleast when I would resist
thinking about it before I heardit from several locations.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
Right.
So
SPEAKER_01 (15:16):
the person seeking mentoring has to be not
right-seeking, right?
So people will come for adviceto be mentored or to be listened
to, but already knowing whatthey think they're going to do
rather than being open tohearing what's possible right
it's hard to mentor a person whois closed
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
exactly i have i have experience with one person
in particular who basically isnot really open to what anybody
has to ask anybody has to sayand this is a situation actually
it's quite sad because there areAnd I was not the only person
(15:58):
who was working with thisperson, but everybody came to
the same conclusion.
This particular person reallywas not able to hear questions
or entertain differentpossibilities.
This person has the mind madeup, right?
So this clearly would not workin terms of mentoring
(16:20):
relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
I've had more than one time since directing the
center, getting what I wouldcall formal emails from people
asking to move into a mentoringrelationship.
And I've always turned thosedown because as you said, these
relationships are organic,right?
You don't kind of hire a mentor.
(16:42):
or a person that you don't bumpup against in some kind of way.
It's much more intimate thanthat.
There is an intimacy inmentoring, being mentored and
mentoring someone.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
I don't think there's a designated mentor.
I mean, it all depends on themoment, depends on the question.
The sad thing about this, nowthat we talked about it, the sad
thing about this particularperson I was thinking about, the
person is no longer in thefield.
no longer in the academy.
And it's not because I want thatperson to do what I think this
(17:19):
person should do.
It's that the person basicallyin some way, for lack of a
better term, self-destructbecause the inability to
consider other options, otherpossibilities.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
So I always trust people to get where they need to
go even if it's out of theacademy even if they bump their
way out you know what i meanlike in that scenario i would
say one of the reasons why theperson is trying not to take the
advice because they're trying toget out you know what i mean so
(17:59):
if that person ended up out ithink they were trying to figure
out a way to get out
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
It could be, it could be, yeah.
And again, it goes back to whatthat person really wants, at
least in rhetoric, that personcame across as really want to be
in the academy.
So maybe you were right, maybedeep down that person wanted out
and then they...
work it out in a way that theyare no longer there.
I have not been in touch withthe person now, but I hope the
(18:26):
person is happy.
SPEAKER_01 (18:28):
That's right, that's right.
So one of the questions I oftenask in mentoring is, in
different kind of ways, kind oflike, what do you want?
Invariably, the
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
person doesn't know.
Right, right.
But that is okay, that is okay.
I think then you just keep onraising different questions,
right?
but now that we talked about iwant to ask you a question yes
when would you know how wouldyou know that somebody should
not be your mentor have you hadexperience that somebody came
(19:03):
across as really wanting tomentor you and you kind of like
check no not you
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
So they wanted me to be the mentee or the mentor?
SPEAKER_00 (19:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They wanted me to be the mentee.
SPEAKER_01 (19:16):
Yes.
I've had that experience.
How would you know?
Because I didn't have aresonance with the person.
Because I didn't feel cared forby the person.
And it was somebody who I was inproximity with.
I was a colleague that I knew,but it was not a colleague that
(19:38):
I had a resonance with.
But we know when we feel caredabout, we know when we feel
seen, we know when we feelappreciated.
I didn't feel any of thosethings from the person who then
volunteered to mentor me.
To which case I said as politelyas my mother has taught me to
(20:00):
say, no, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (20:04):
Have you experienced people who come across as really
want to mentor you?
I think that would be my signal.
If someone came across toostrongly, like, you know, I can
mentor you.
I want to mentor you.
I often feel funny about that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
I don't think I've ever said that to anybody.
I've had that experience twicein my career.
And both times it was said, whatI heard was, I want something
from you.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
And
SPEAKER_01 (20:35):
both times I said, no, thank you.
You know what I mean?
Seriously, no.
Like I didn't, it wasn't, Iwasn't wondering, oh, what
should I do?
Oh, maybe I should considerthis.
Oh, this is a person of stature.
I trust my gut, right?
I trust my own intuition.
I trusted my experience of boththese people.
(20:57):
And they were not people who Itrusted.
So I don't need to like secondguess myself or wonder or even
check them out by other people,right?
You know, sometimes you do that.
You're not sure.
Let me ask other people whatthey, in both of these
instances, no, not for
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
me.
I asked that question because itwent back to what we talked
about earlier, right?
I think when people came acrosslike that, their understanding
of mentoring often was I was thesage.
I was the role model.
You do what I want you to do.
I kind of like take you underwell i would say his wings i had
experienced that once and irealized wow that from now on i
(21:38):
watch out for people they'recoming across too eagerly to
mentor me i was like no i'mgonna keep some distance
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
yeah yeah no it's never and i'm trying to think i
don't know that i've ever saidto anybody even though i thought
it I don't think I've said, letme tell this person I want to
mentor them.
You know what I mean?
I don't.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think that would beright.
It's all organic.
That's right.
That's right.
Actually, most of the time younever even use that term.
mentoring right so we go back tothat term you just have that
relationship that's it peoplemay come to you you talk you
both enjoy it and then you knowthe person may go to someone
(22:21):
else i may go to someone elseit's never like would you be my
mentor i mean i don't think iever asked that question
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
it's not something you put on your cv right mentor
entered by vinnie lou likenobody nobody does that
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
i do think it's important it does go back to
what you say about the communalpart, right?
I think you and I are bothinvested in changing the academy
and our discipline in some ways.
And if we're really going to dothat, it has to be a community.
Again, one of these days I willbe gone, but I want this kind of
(22:57):
minoritized theologicaltradition to continue.
And the only way it can continueis that we put different
generations together.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
we put them together and we have them listen to one
another right and like you saidnot the ego thing put them
together so the elders can tellthem how to continue the
traditions but we put themtogether so they can talk about
what's needed to build a betterfuture
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
yeah and that will be another term i think it's
important to keep in the mix thecommunal part should be
generational
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
yeah i absolutely agree with that So we've
started, you know, we do peermentoring grants, have done
those for years.
We also have started and willcontinue to do intergenerational
grants for the very reasons thatwe're talking about, that the
generations can't stay siloedaway from each other.
They have to be in conversationwith each other, in relationship
(23:50):
with each other.
And
SPEAKER_00 (23:52):
good mentors do a lot of things that mentees don't
know about.
Yeah.
I have, I know people who havehelped me.
They, Help me in different waysI simply do not know about.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
And you're not supposed to know because we're
in rooms that you don't knowabout.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
And we can mention your names in places that you
can't go.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
But that's one of the payoffs of being mentored.
But that's also one of theinvisible labors of being a
mentor, right?
That you're taking your menteesinto rooms where without those
relationships, they wouldn't beon the tip of your brain.
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
Exactly.
And that is another reason whymentoring really is about a
network, right?
I know I have networks and youhave network.
You might have helped me in someway that I never even knew
about.
And that's the precious thing.
I mean, because when you do thiskind of work, you really are not
looking for award, looking forrecognition.
(24:51):
You're really trying to buildthe other person up.
UNKNOWN (24:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:55):
And you're trying to build the person up, but you're
also trying to get the workdone, right?
You need certain people incertain places because the work
is important, right?
The work of scholarship and thescholarship of religion is
important to the larger society.
So we need good people in theright places to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
Yeah, it has to go to do with what I said earlier,
that kind of intellectualtradition, the theological
tradition that we want to build.
And that has to be generational.
That has to be a communaltradition.
than all of them.
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
Thank you, Dr.
Bu.
Come back anytime.
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
It has been fun.
I enjoy speaking with youalways.
So thank you for your time.
SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
To our listeners, the Wabash Center website is the
place.
Look on our website forinformation about our workshops,
for information about ourregranting program, as well as
information about oureducational resources.
A special thanks to our podcastproducer, Rachel Mills, and the
music which frames our podcastis the original composition of
Paul Myrie.
Wabash Center for more than 30years is exclusively funded by
(26:00):
Lilly Endowment Incorporated.
And we are out.
How was that, Paul?
UNKNOWN (26:11):
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.