January 19, 2025 • 32 mins
Discipleship is fundamentally a spiritual calling rooted in grace rather than human effort. This episode illuminates the nature of being a disciple, emphasizing that one is chosen by God, and highlights the importance of understanding one's identity in Christ.
• Clarification of forgiveness and grace
• Distinction between disciples and Christian believers
• Discussion on the cost of discipleship based on Luke 14
• Implications of the sparse use of ‘disciple’ in the epistles
• Analysis of the command to make disciples of all nations
• Grace as the foundation of true faith.
Share what's on your heart, and enjoy free study resources on our Episodes Page: https://wakinguptograce.com/can-we-be-disciples/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcement (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Waking Up to Grace
podcast where we celebrate andexplore the finished work of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
Tune in to the Waking Up toGrace podcast on every major
platform.
You can also listen to ourepisodes and read our full
transcripts atwakinguptogracecom.
And now here's Lenny.
Welcome back to the podcasteveryone.
Melissa (00:25):
Good morning, Welcome back to the podcast everyone.
Good morning, welcome back.
Lenny (00:27):
We are waking up to grace a little more each day and we
are complete in Christ the wholeway.
That's pretty cool, isn't it?
Melissa?
Melissa (00:34):
It's so cool.
It's something to look forwardto every single day for the rest
of our lives.
Lenny (00:39):
Exactly.
Christ is risen.
His holy blood shed on thecross has brought those who
believe into a perfect andunbreakable fellowship with our
Lord.
We're in union with him,salvation is secure and we've
been reconciled by a sacrificethat was fully satisfying to God
.
Yeshua gave us the spirit oflife.
It was a gift it is ours tokeep.
(01:02):
We have eternal life within usright now.
Our new life in Christ beginsnow, not later.
Don't get lost in your sin andmiss this amazing truth.
Melissa (01:12):
Amen Instead get excited.
Lenny (01:15):
Absolutely.
Our focus now can be on theLord and pleasing him.
We don't have to sit here andponder all the stuff that we
need to be forgiven for, becausewe're forgiven creatures.
Melissa (01:26):
It's a beautiful thing that is awesome.
Lenny (01:28):
We can pray for God to shape us the way he wants to,
for his will, but we don't haveto worry about forgiveness.
Melissa (01:35):
We do not.
We've been given his grace andthat defined, is a gift.
It's unearned approval andacceptance.
Lenny (01:43):
Absolutely.
Forgiveness was in Christ.
We have Christ in us.
Therefore, forgiveness is in us.
We are forgiven.
Melissa (01:52):
These are some important facts to realize.
Lenny (01:56):
Yeah, pretty cool.
Melissa (01:57):
Every day.
Lenny (01:58):
So lately we've been talking about apostles, haven't
we?
Melissa (02:01):
Yes.
Lenny (02:02):
When you think of apostle Melissa, what's the first thing
that comes to your mind?
Melissa (02:06):
When I think of apostle , I can't help but think of
disciple, and I found myselfneeding to be certain that I
understood the differencebetween the two.
Lenny (02:15):
The disciples were apostles and they kind of start
to merge into one another.
You're like well, what madethem disciples?
What made them apostles?
When did they switch?
What's the difference?
Is the main thing that we needto define in order to understand
any of those questions.
We already went throughapostleship recently and we were
talking about what makes anapostle an apostle.
What is an apostle?
(02:35):
And by definition, it'sbasically one sent out.
The apostles were sent out on aspecific mission.
They were chosen for thatmission and they completed it.
Christ gave them.
They were chosen for thatmission and they completed it.
Christ gave them everythingthey needed to fulfill that
mission and they fulfilled it.
So what's disciple?
If you were going to look it upin Webster's Melissa, I know
that you probably did.
Melissa (02:57):
I did.
Often when I've heard otherteachers or pastors describe
what a disciple is, I hear themsay it's one who accepts and
helps to spread the teachings ofanother, and that is one of the
definitions.
But I find that the otherdefinition I found tends to get
left out, and that's a convincedadherent or follower, believer,
(03:22):
advocate.
So simply someone who's aconvinced believer is a disciple
, and that says a lot to me,especially when you're hearing
someone say that a disciple isdifferent than simply a believer
.
Lenny (03:40):
So what you're saying is, the first definition was
basically somebody who's helpingspread this new message, but
then it can also mean justsomebody who really believes in
that message.
Yeah, so that would essentiallybe more like believing rather
than actually doing anything,and that is interesting.
Most of the time, I hear thefirst one that you mentioned.
(04:00):
Right, that's the most commonview, and so when we ask the
question that we're going to beasking in this episode can we be
disciples we're going to haveto factor that definition in.
Can we be disciples accordingto that first definition?
Can we be disciples accordingto that second definition?
Can we be disciples at all?
We're going to be looking atthat and, if we can, what are
(04:23):
the qualifications?
Melissa (04:25):
Exciting.
Lenny (04:26):
What are the qualifications of being a
disciple?
And then what is the purpose?
We want to see what the Biblesays.
You could be a disciple ofDavid Koresh.
You could.
He had disciples.
They all died and he died.
So it's a little bit differentstory when you're talking about
(04:46):
somebody who defeated death?
It certainly is, and rose fromthe dead and gave us their
spirit, and we read in scripturewe will make our dwelling
within them.
What is this all about?
Are we disciples?
Can we be disciples?
When you look at disciple inscripture, you find that the
word disciple is used around 250times or so throughout our
(05:08):
Bibles.
Only a few times in the OldTestament it's even mentioned.
Melissa (05:12):
Okay.
Lenny (05:13):
So your ancient Hebrews?
They weren't really goingaround saying we need to be
disciples.
Most of the time that it's usedis in the Gospels.
Almost all of that.
250 is all in the Gospels, butthere is around 25 or 30 times
it's used in the Book of Acts.
Melissa (05:30):
Okay.
Lenny (05:31):
Keep that in mind.
So you have the Gospels beforethe cross, and then you have the
Book of Acts, which is actuallya storyline of the Acts of the
Apostles, never meant to be awritten doctrine.
It wasn't a letter to thechurch on how to live by the
Spirit, for example.
Melissa (05:47):
Right.
Lenny (05:47):
It was Acts of the Apostles.
It was a storyline of what theydid.
You can learn from it, but itwas never meant to be an
apostolic letter.
Important to note.
How many times do you think theword disciple is used in our
letters from the apostles, inall the epistles?
How many times is the worddisciple used in those in the
writings of the apostles?
Melissa (06:09):
Well being that there's a discipleship doctrine out
there in the churches today, itwould seem that it would have to
be quite a bit.
Lenny (06:17):
You'd think it's got to be all over the place.
Right, you're going to say atleast it's got to be a handful
of times.
Melissa (06:23):
Paul would have had to have hammered it home.
Lenny (06:25):
Yeah, he would have to have, but similar to the whole
thing that we talk about with 1John, where we're supposed to
confess and ask for forgiveness,not mentioned in a single
epistle.
There's not one use of the worddisciple in our epistles.
Melissa (06:41):
That knocks my socks off.
Lenny (06:42):
Not one hint at being a disciple or discipling people or
making disciples of all nations.
Melissa (06:52):
So where is this doctrine coming from then?
Lenny (06:55):
Well Yeshua used the word all the time.
You see him using it all thetime, and so I think that's the
biggest argument that somebodywould have.
Well, Christ Yeshua uses theword all the time, and so I
think that's the biggestargument that somebody would
have.
Well, Christ Yeshua uses theword all the time, so we have to
honor that right.
Melissa (07:09):
Right.
Lenny (07:09):
But you hear that kind of lingo going on with people that
don't understand before andafter the cross as well.
So you have the time before thecross and after the cross and
you have to discern becauseChrist was under law, he was
teaching law, he was fulfillinglaw.
Discern because Christ wasunder law, he was teaching law,
he was fulfilling law, and wehave to be able to understand
what was law and what was gracewith what Christ said.
Melissa (07:31):
We do, or we will be very confused.
Lenny (07:33):
Yeah, so is discipling people.
Grace is the question.
So where does it come from?
Would this be more of a beforethe cross and resurrection or
more of a grace teaching?
That's what we have to look at.
That's what we have to figureout.
Is there context in the factthat Yeshua used the word all
the time for us under grace?
(07:54):
Okay, so what I see inscripture to paint a picture of
what I see is that he was usingthe word disciple to sway people
into the new covenant, becausewe never heard the word in the
old covenant when they had thelaw.
But then Christ came in with anew teaching, this new grace
(08:16):
teaching that was going tofulfill the law and reveal a
whole new view of the law, butalso fulfill it.
So essentially it was going tobe a new doctrine.
Melissa (08:28):
Yes.
Lenny (08:29):
So you have a new doctrine being established for
the new covenant age, and so theword disciple is going to be
being used.
So it doesn't surprise me thatwith a change of doctrine and
establishment of a new covenantage, you're going to hear that
word being used, right, right,what is the purpose of a
disciple?
What is the purpose?
(08:50):
Do we need to make disciples ofall nations?
You hear people say that.
So that's one of the primarycalls to action for discipleship
doctrine Go and make disciplesof all nations.
Our Lord told us this.
This is our mission.
We got to go out.
That means we got to go on amission trip, maybe.
So we got to go out into thesenations and there's a lot of
(09:12):
people that have that idea intheir mind when they go out on
missions trips all nations,right, right.
You hear that.
How do you think that appliesto us today?
Melissa (09:22):
I think that if you feel called to go and serve in
another country, serve somewhereother than right in your
hometown, go for it.
But I also believe that thatparticular mission was fulfilled
by the disciples at that time.
Lenny (09:38):
Yes, and specifically at Pentecost.
Amen, at Pentecost is wherethat mission was at least begun
and it would have been completed.
And I'm going to talk aboutPentecost, but at one point in
Paul's letter he mentions thatthe gospel has reached the ends
of the earth.
He says it in a way that it'salready happened.
Melissa (10:00):
That was the race he was running.
Lenny (10:02):
Yes.
Melissa (10:02):
So once it reached the ends, his race had been finished
, right yeah.
Lenny (10:06):
Yeah, and it sounds like I don't know which exact point
that he's referring to, but alot of people say that at
Pentecost this was fulfilled,Because if you look at Pentecost
, that was when the Holy Spiritcame upon everybody and other
nations were hearing them intheir language.
It doesn't even say they werespeaking another language.
It says the other nations werearound and heard them speaking
(10:28):
in their languages.
They were speaking and allthese people were hearing it in
their own languages.
Amazing.
But when you rewind back,Christ sent out the 12 and then
he sent out the 72.
Melissa (10:41):
Yes.
Lenny (10:42):
It's really the 70, but that's a whole nother topic.
So he sends out the 12, hesends out the 70.
What was their mission?
They were apostles at that timefor a message.
The message was the kingdom ofGod is here.
Messiah is here.
Melissa (10:56):
Yes.
Lenny (10:56):
But then what happened?
Cross happened, theresurrection happened, and then,
at Penteentecost, all thenations, just by chance,
happened to be, you know wherethey were gathering, and all of
a sudden peter's standing up.
He's declaring the gospel ofthe risen christ, the
forgiveness of sins and theresurrection of the dead, a
(11:20):
whole new addition to the gospelthat they were spreading before
.
This was reaching all thenations because they were all
there.
And they all went home withthat understanding.
Melissa (11:31):
Because they all heard it in their own language.
Lenny (11:34):
Yes.
Melissa (11:41):
I want to just quickly note.
Isn't that amazing that Peterwas the one to speak and deliver
that message because he haddenied Christ three times and he
was so sorrowful about it andthen he got to be the one to
make that declaration that'scool.
Lenny (11:54):
Yeah, for sure.
Melissa (11:55):
You know that Christ saved that special moment just
for him.
Lenny (12:00):
So you have the three passages.
You have Acts 1.8, mark 16.15,matthew 28, and they all read a
little bit differently.
But the one that uses the worddisciple says Go therefore and
make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of
the Father and the Son of theHoly Spirit.
This was right before Pentecost.
(12:21):
Then Pentecost happened.
You see Christ making a commandto them which he fulfilled in
them.
How hard did they have to workat that, think about that.
So he's telling them go out anddo this.
You know they're listening.
He tells them where to go andthey're there, they're present.
And then the Spirit comes withtongues of fire representing
(12:44):
God's presence.
And then, all of a sudden,they're preaching the gospel and
all the nations had beenscattered at Babel with
different languages, werehearing in one language.
Talk about a sign and wonder.
Melissa (12:55):
No kidding.
Lenny (12:57):
I think that kind of answers the question of what is
the purpose of the disciple,doesn't it?
Melissa (13:03):
Yeah, it does.
What was their?
Lenny (13:04):
purpose, fulfill the command of Christ.
Melissa (13:06):
And that happened.
Lenny (13:08):
Yeah.
Melissa (13:08):
So yeah.
Lenny (13:10):
But what was their purpose of being disciples all
that time?
It was learning, being taughtby Christ, and how much of that
did they really retain until theSpirit was given to them is the
question.
Melissa (13:22):
Well, Scripture shows us that they didn't understand
most of what christ was sayingyeah the whole time, those three
years, they were living withhim night and day, walking on
the earth.
Lenny (13:33):
They didn't understand what he was saying yeah, there's
a handful of passages, one ofthem specifically saying that
the truth was hidden from themand they didn't understand it
because they haven't been giventhe spirit Right.
You know, they're walkingaround, following him around,
he's teaching them.
So I guess, my point being,what did they do to become
(13:54):
disciples?
And even more so, the nextquestion I'm going to ask is can
we be disciples by our ownchoice or our own works?
Can we just say I'm going to bea disciple or I'm a disciple?
If we were going to say I'mgoing to be a disciple, then
we're going to talk about thediscipleship doctrine, because
that tells you salvation is here, but then discipleship is how
(14:18):
you achieve holiness, that's howyou achieve fellowship, that's
how you basically love god inreturn for his love, kind of
thing he'll be your friend he'llbe your friend.
Melissa (14:28):
He won't turn on you this is according to
discipleship doctor yeah, that'snot me saying this.
Lenny (14:34):
So can we be disciples by our own choice or our own works
?
I'm gonna spoil this.
We can't.
We can't choose to becomedisciples, can we?
No, we cannot okay, and we'regoing to get more into that, but
I want to see what scripturesays let's go for it so let's
see if we can support that viewin scripture all right if we
(14:56):
can't become a disciple by ourown works, then discipleship
doctrine doesn't even applyanymore, does it?
Melissa (15:05):
No.
Lenny (15:05):
Because that doctrine, as we're going to speak about, is
all based on works.
It's based on our works makingus holy.
So if we can prove that youcan't even become a disciple by
your own works, then we canprove that discipleship doctrine
is false.
Melissa (15:21):
Is it our works making us holy that they're saying, or
just our works making usobedient?
Lenny (15:29):
I've heard the word holy used specifically.
Melissa (15:33):
Oh, okay.
Lenny (15:34):
That's our way of achieving holiness.
We can achieve holiness.
I've heard it specifically saidthat way.
Melissa (15:39):
Okay.
Lenny (15:40):
By good teachers, ones that I hold in high regards, and
it makes me sad.
Melissa (15:44):
Yeah.
Lenny (15:45):
But I still regard them as brother.
They just don't see graceclearly.
Melissa (15:49):
Right.
Lenny (15:50):
Let's read scripture and see where they might be coming
from.
If there's any ground to standon, we're going to look at where
they're coming from so that wecan try to better understand it
rather than just throwing itunder the bus.
Melissa (16:01):
That's what spurred us to want to talk about this.
Yeah, just throwing it underthe bus, that's what spurred us
to want to talk about this.
Yeah, we have some favoriteteachers that we've learned a
lot from.
We have a lot of respect for,like you said, brothers in
christ, and we're trying tofigure out because we know that
they're genuine and we know thatthey are brothers in christ
where are they coming from?
Yeah, so we're trying to breakit down and more recently when
(16:22):
we were talking.
Lenny (16:23):
you know, as humans we get a little triggered,
sometimes get a little ampedwhen something is just not right
and you don't like it.
But you were mentioning earlierthis week when we were talking
about I'm starting to get alittle amped.
You were saying I'm just tryingto see where he's coming from
and I think that helps us alittle to understand people and
(16:43):
understand their error.
Like they are coming fromsomewhere.
We just have to help them getaway from.
That is the goal, not to tellthem they're not saved.
You're not my brother, youcan't be Christian.
If you believe that we shouldbe thinking of ways to try to
help them, Right.
Even if not them specifically,help others that might hear the
(17:05):
truth.
Melissa (17:06):
Amen.
Lenny (17:07):
Luke 14, 25 starts out.
Now great crowds accompaniedhim and he turned and said to
them If anyone comes to me anddoes not hate his own father and
mother and wife and childrenand brothers and sisters, yes,
and even his own life, he cannotbe my disciple.
Melissa (17:27):
Wow.
Lenny (17:29):
Ponder that for a minute.
Melissa (17:31):
Who could do that?
Lenny (17:32):
When you're thinking about yourself as a disciple.
Just ponder that a minute.
How did you get there?
How did you earn this?
Did you hate your mother?
Did you hate your own life?
Is that even possible?
Why would he say this Did?
Melissa (17:48):
you hate your mother, did you hate your own life?
Is that even possible?
Why would he say this and howcould he even want that?
He tells us to honor our fatherand mother.
Lenny (17:52):
It sounds like hypocrisy, right, but was it hyperbole?
Was it some kind of joke?
Was he just kidding around orwas he serious?
Are we to take this literally,figuratively?
I don't see any area where wecan make that discernment that
he was speaking figuratively.
I think he was dead serious.
I think, he was too.
(18:12):
Here's why I think that Becausethis is what he's trying to
tell you you want to be mydisciple?
You can't.
Melissa (18:20):
That's right, it's impossible.
Lenny (18:42):
You can't.
That doesn't mean that you'renot able to be, that's right.
He's saying hey, you, right now, you want to follow me.
Here's what you do.
Look at yourself right now, ifyou're out there, can you do
that?
You can't.
It's impossible and he's notasking you to.
He's not asking you to, he'sjust telling you this is what it
takes.
The heading on one of thetranslations says the cost of
(19:04):
being a disciple.
Melissa (19:05):
I like that.
Lenny (19:06):
That's the price you pay.
Are you willing to pay?
Can you pay that price?
Melissa (19:12):
So it's not that.
That's what it actually takes.
Lenny (19:15):
No, they didn't hate their families.
Peter had his wife with him.
Melissa (19:19):
Right, it's not that.
That's what it takes.
It was his way of showingpeople how impossible it was.
And you know.
Another part of that is that,for the Jewish people, they
would understand that they wouldhave to contradict the law in
order to do it, because you'resupposed to honor your father
and mother, love your neighborand love your neighbor.
It was a total contradiction tothe law.
Lenny (19:40):
It was a contradiction to all logic.
It just shatters your paradigmwhen he says that.
Melissa (19:46):
So in other words, it's unnatural.
Lenny (19:48):
Completely unnatural to be his disciple.
Melissa (19:53):
Unable to be done on your own accord.
Lenny (20:00):
Exactly so, then own accord, exactly so.
Then he continues, says and soyou've got to bear your own
cross.
Are you doing that?
Who out there is bearing theirown cross?
Was he talking to them?
I mean, are they bearing theirown cross to follow him?
For which of you desiring tobuild a tower does not first sit
down and count the cost,whether he has enough to
(20:20):
complete it?
Otherwise, when he has laid afoundation and is not able to
finish, all who see it begin tomock him, saying this man began
to build and was not able tofinish.
So he's talking about planning.
If you want to calculate thecost of being a disciple, think
about this, you guys, is whathe's saying.
Think about this, plan itcarefully.
And then he says or what kinggoing out to encounter another
(20:41):
king in war will not sit onfirst and deliberate whether he
is able, with 10,000, to meethim?
Who comes against him with20,000.
Think about this.
You're outnumbered here, guys,grossly outnumbered.
And then he says and if, if not, while the other is yet a great
way off, he sends a delegationand asks for terms of peace.
(21:02):
Who do you think that peace is?
Melissa (21:05):
none other than christ himself he's talking about
christ.
Lenny (21:09):
He's talking about himself.
He's saying you'd look forterms of peace.
It goes on to say so.
Therefore, any of you who doesnot renounce all that he has
cannot be my disciple.
So he's showing them they're upagainst an impossibility.
So what would they do?
According to what he said,they'd send out a delegation,
wouldn't they?
And ask for terms of peace.
He was already giving them alittle taste of what it means to
(21:33):
follow him.
I can't do it.
I need you.
Will you give me peace?
Would you expect that yourenemy owes you peace, or would
you be hoping that he gives youpeace because you didn't deserve
it?
You're his enemy.
Melissa (21:46):
You would be hoping.
Lenny (21:48):
So Christ was the peace.
What does it mean to be adisciple?
Sounds like belief for theirtime.
How are they even coming tothat belief?
So that brings you to the nextquestion.
If they can't do it by theirown works, all it is is a matter
of saying I can't do it, helpme.
If they can't do it, you can'teven become a disciple in the
(22:08):
first place.
That kind of messes up, thatdoctrine of discipleship.
But then let's take it a stepfurther.
What are the qualifications?
But then let's take it a stepfurther.
What are the qualifications?
So how do you do it?
So John, chapter 6, and theverse that Melissa is going to
read, right after those crazypassages where Christ Yeshua is
telling them they need to eathis flesh and drink his blood.
(22:31):
All these disciples there'smore than 12 around him.
Melissa (22:35):
Yes.
Lenny (22:36):
And all of a sudden they're all scattering Like.
This is creepy.
Eat his flesh, drink his blood.
I'm out of here.
Melissa (22:44):
I think he's a little cuckoo, cuckoo.
Lenny (22:45):
Yeah, and who wouldn't have thought he was crazy, right
?
I mean, let's face it.
There's no way you're notthinking this dude's out of his
mind.
Melissa (22:51):
No.
Lenny (22:52):
So this is what no avail.
Melissa (23:24):
The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and
life, but there are some of youwho do not believe, for Jesus
knew from the beginning whothose were that did not believe
and who it was who would betrayhim.
And he said this is why I toldyou that no one can come to me
unless it is granted him by theFather.
After this, many of hisdisciples turned back and no
longer walked with him.
So Jesus said to the twelve Doyou want to go away as well?
(23:49):
Simon Peter answered him.
(24:16):
Lord, to whom shall we?
Lenny (24:17):
go Okay, what are the qualifications?
The father has to grant it.
And then what happens when thefather grants you into the
kingdom?
You believe?
What was Peter's response, Lord?
But we believe.
So what made him a disciple?
What made all the otherso-called disciples scatter?
Melissa (24:37):
Unbelief.
Lenny (24:39):
They were really as Christ had said at one point.
They were there for the food.
Melissa (24:43):
Yes.
Lenny (24:44):
They called him disciples as they walked away.
That doesn't sound very closeto Christ, does it?
Melissa (24:49):
No, it does not.
Lenny (24:56):
Doesn't that sound more along the lines of somebody
who's following along with amessage and just kind of
following somebody?
They're following him, they'relistening, but does that make
you any more Christian?
Melissa (25:04):
No, it doesn't.
Lenny (25:05):
What made the disciples more Christian?
Melissa (25:09):
They've been chosen by God.
Lenny (25:11):
They were chosen.
And when they said Judas is adevil, we always think Satan.
And when they said Judas is adevil, we always think Satan.
And I know Satan entered hisheart.
It said but the word devilthere could actually be deceiver
, slanderer, false accuser it'sjust another word for that.
So it doesn't have to mean he'sSatan.
He was just, he was false.
And there again, he wasconsidered a disciple.
(25:33):
And so you're just thinking,okay, you know, you hear people
say like oh, we can just stopbeing a disciple anytime we want
.
And it's like well then, whatgood is it?
What's the point?
Why is it not used in theepistles?
On top of all that, in John 15,Christ goes on to say you did
not choose me, but I chose youand appointed you that you
(25:55):
should go and bear fruit andthat your fruit should abide.
I chose you, you did not chooseme.
He says we just have to believeit.
Melissa (26:04):
That's right.
Lenny (26:05):
We could argue that if we want to, but why?
What is there to argue?
Let's just be thankful for thatright.
Melissa (26:11):
That's right, right, so what I'm hearing you say is
that to believe, to be aconvinced believer of Christ, is
to be a disciple.
Lenny (26:25):
I don't see anything to build a doctrine called
discipleship where we achieveholiness and fellowship with God
.
You could say you're disciplingsomebody by teaching Christ.
You could say that it's notlike, it's inaccurate.
But how do you be a disciple?
If you were discipling somebody?
How do they become a disciple?
If you're going to use thatscenario, how would they become
one?
Melissa (26:45):
They would be chosen by God to believe.
Lenny (26:48):
I do know what the scripture tells us, how the
disciples became disciples andwhat the qualifications were it
was impossible for them to do inthe first place.
It's humanly impossible to be adisciple of Christ on your own
works.
He chose them, he enabled them.
They were able to believe,agreed, they believed because he
(27:09):
chose them for belief.
So all those things that he wassaying about hating your mother
, hating your father, he'ssaying you can't do it without
me.
The Father is going to grantyou discipleship.
If the Father has to grant itto you, how much can you work
for?
How much of that discipleship,if you're going to apply it to
today, are you working for?
(27:30):
How much have you earned?
How much of that are youcontributing to?
Zero that are you contributingto Zero?
See, this is wherepredestination helps grace along
, and this is why free will is aboon to grace.
In my opinion, it is when youunderstand that God's the one
choosing these guys.
We've got to step up our game.
(27:50):
If we're preachingpredestination and discipleship,
that's just a massive doubletalk, in my opinion.
I can't see it any other way.
What are you talking about?
Melissa (27:59):
I agree.
I think it's trying to blend inhuman understanding.
Shouldn't we be doing thesethings?
And yes, we should be doinggood things.
Lenny (28:09):
Well, what you're describing is you're saying that
people's motives.
They're trying to help people,they're trying to help people
understand in a human way, butthey're not accepting the
reality in scripture that Christjust told you you can't humanly
be a disciple, so why are youteaching in a human way, like
it's possible?
The discipleship we see inscripture is not worldly
discipleship, it's spiritualdiscipleship that is appointed
(28:33):
to us by the Father.
Melissa (28:35):
It is.
Lenny (28:36):
That wipes out discipleship, doctor.
And the funniest thing is isthat most of the preachers of
discipleship believe inpredestination.
I don't understand it.
Paul never taught how to be adisciple.
He taught that Christ Yeshua isour life force.
He is our fellowship, he is oursalvation, he is our
righteousness, he is ourholiness.
His work is finished.
(28:57):
You have been made perfect inhim.
You are as righteous as him nowand you are as holy as him now.
How many people understand thatyou're as righteous as Christ?
But the problem is is we getconfused because of positional
doctrines that divide that up.
It's the same thing asdiscipleship.
They're dividing it up.
They're slicing it intocategories.
(29:17):
Discipleship and fellowship arelike the same thing.
They make that same category.
Fellowship is basicallydiscipleship and you can be out
in and out in and out based onyour behavior.
Melissa (29:29):
According to that doctrine, According to that
doctrine.
Lenny (29:32):
But the problem is is that salvation when we read
scripture with properhermeneutics?
Salvation with Christ isfellowship with Christ, period.
There is no dividing categoryfor that.
Scripture doesn't teach us todivide that.
Melissa (29:46):
So would salvation be discipleship too.
Lenny (29:49):
You could look at it different ways.
I'd say, if you want to be adisciple, you can say well, yeah
, I mean, I'm a disciple byidentity.
You could say that because youare and you're always going to
be that way.
That's your identity now, justlike your fellowship with Christ
.
It's permanent.
You're not in and out every day.
You're not wondering if God'sholding something against you,
(30:12):
because punishment is based onthe past.
Punishment is payment andconsequence for something in the
past.
God doesn't punish, he doesn'twhip and scourge.
We've gone through thosepassages.
It's silly.
He disciplines, and disciplineis preparing us for the future.
Right, it may feel likepunishment, but it's not because
he's preparing us for thefuture and he's not mad, he's
(30:33):
not attacking us, he's notreleasing his wrath on us.
Those days are gone.
What is justification if it'snot being justified in your
worldly life now?
What good is it?
What good is it if it's acategory that only fits you in
heaven?
Well, we're heading into ournext part of the topic, which
(30:54):
was actually digging into thedoctrine of discipleship a
little bit, seeing what makes ittick, seeing what it's all
about and talking about it.
But we're out of time for today, so we'll actually be
continuing this one.
Next week Looks like there'sgoing to be a part two.
Melissa (31:11):
All right.
Lenny (31:11):
There's a lot to say about disciples and discipleship
.
In the beginning we asked thequestions what is the purpose of
a disciple?
What are the qualifications?
Can we be disciples?
I think we answered all thosepretty.
What is the purpose of adisciple?
What are the qualifications?
Can we be disciples?
I think we answered all thosepretty well.
A disciple of Christ was aspiritual thing.
It wasn't like being a discipleof anything else on this planet
, anything else in the world.
It was nothing like it.
True, it wasn't based on effort.
(31:32):
The qualification was that youwere chosen.
But we're going to see wherethey're coming from in that
doctrine and kind of dissect itnext week and talk some more
about this discipleship doctrine.
Yes, have a great week outthere.
Announcement (31:47):
Thank you for listening to the Waking Up to
Grace podcast brought to you bythe finished work of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
If you enjoyed today's episode,we would love to hear from you.
You can send encouragement ourway right from our episodes and
transcripts page or reach Lennyprivately from the contact form.
Hello and welcome to the Waking Up to Grace
podcast where we celebrate andexplore the finished work of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
Tune in to the Waking Up toGrace podcast on every major
platform.
You can also listen to ourepisodes and read our full
transcripts atwakinguptogracecom.
And now here's Lenny.
Welcome back to the podcasteveryone.
Melissa (00:25):
Good morning, Welcome back to the podcast everyone.
Good morning, welcome back.
Lenny (00:27):
We are waking up to grace a little more each day and we
are complete in Christ the wholeway.
That's pretty cool, isn't it?
Melissa?
Melissa (00:34):
It's so cool.
It's something to look forwardto every single day for the rest
of our lives.
Lenny (00:39):
Exactly.
Christ is risen.
His holy blood shed on thecross has brought those who
believe into a perfect andunbreakable fellowship with our
Lord.
We're in union with him,salvation is secure and we've
been reconciled by a sacrificethat was fully satisfying to God
.
Yeshua gave us the spirit oflife.
It was a gift it is ours tokeep.
(01:02):
We have eternal life within usright now.
Our new life in Christ beginsnow, not later.
Don't get lost in your sin andmiss this amazing truth.
Melissa (01:12):
Amen Instead get excited.
Lenny (01:15):
Absolutely.
Our focus now can be on theLord and pleasing him.
We don't have to sit here andponder all the stuff that we
need to be forgiven for, becausewe're forgiven creatures.
Melissa (01:26):
It's a beautiful thing that is awesome.
Lenny (01:28):
We can pray for God to shape us the way he wants to,
for his will, but we don't haveto worry about forgiveness.
Melissa (01:35):
We do not.
We've been given his grace andthat defined, is a gift.
It's unearned approval andacceptance.
Lenny (01:43):
Absolutely.
Forgiveness was in Christ.
We have Christ in us.
Therefore, forgiveness is in us.
We are forgiven.
Melissa (01:52):
These are some important facts to realize.
Lenny (01:56):
Yeah, pretty cool.
Melissa (01:57):
Every day.
Lenny (01:58):
So lately we've been talking about apostles, haven't
we?
Melissa (02:01):
Yes.
Lenny (02:02):
When you think of apostle Melissa, what's the first thing
that comes to your mind?
Melissa (02:06):
When I think of apostle , I can't help but think of
disciple, and I found myselfneeding to be certain that I
understood the differencebetween the two.
Lenny (02:15):
The disciples were apostles and they kind of start
to merge into one another.
You're like well, what madethem disciples?
What made them apostles?
When did they switch?
What's the difference?
Is the main thing that we needto define in order to understand
any of those questions.
We already went throughapostleship recently and we were
talking about what makes anapostle an apostle.
What is an apostle?
(02:35):
And by definition, it'sbasically one sent out.
The apostles were sent out on aspecific mission.
They were chosen for thatmission and they completed it.
Christ gave them.
They were chosen for thatmission and they completed it.
Christ gave them everythingthey needed to fulfill that
mission and they fulfilled it.
So what's disciple?
If you were going to look it upin Webster's Melissa, I know
that you probably did.
Melissa (02:57):
I did.
Often when I've heard otherteachers or pastors describe
what a disciple is, I hear themsay it's one who accepts and
helps to spread the teachings ofanother, and that is one of the
definitions.
But I find that the otherdefinition I found tends to get
left out, and that's a convincedadherent or follower, believer,
(03:22):
advocate.
So simply someone who's aconvinced believer is a disciple
, and that says a lot to me,especially when you're hearing
someone say that a disciple isdifferent than simply a believer
.
Lenny (03:40):
So what you're saying is, the first definition was
basically somebody who's helpingspread this new message, but
then it can also mean justsomebody who really believes in
that message.
Yeah, so that would essentiallybe more like believing rather
than actually doing anything,and that is interesting.
Most of the time, I hear thefirst one that you mentioned.
(04:00):
Right, that's the most commonview, and so when we ask the
question that we're going to beasking in this episode can we be
disciples we're going to haveto factor that definition in.
Can we be disciples accordingto that first definition?
Can we be disciples accordingto that second definition?
Can we be disciples at all?
We're going to be looking atthat and, if we can, what are
(04:23):
the qualifications?
Melissa (04:25):
Exciting.
Lenny (04:26):
What are the qualifications of being a
disciple?
And then what is the purpose?
We want to see what the Biblesays.
You could be a disciple ofDavid Koresh.
You could.
He had disciples.
They all died and he died.
So it's a little bit differentstory when you're talking about
(04:46):
somebody who defeated death?
It certainly is, and rose fromthe dead and gave us their
spirit, and we read in scripturewe will make our dwelling
within them.
What is this all about?
Are we disciples?
Can we be disciples?
When you look at disciple inscripture, you find that the
word disciple is used around 250times or so throughout our
(05:08):
Bibles.
Only a few times in the OldTestament it's even mentioned.
Melissa (05:12):
Okay.
Lenny (05:13):
So your ancient Hebrews?
They weren't really goingaround saying we need to be
disciples.
Most of the time that it's usedis in the Gospels.
Almost all of that.
250 is all in the Gospels, butthere is around 25 or 30 times
it's used in the Book of Acts.
Melissa (05:30):
Okay.
Lenny (05:31):
Keep that in mind.
So you have the Gospels beforethe cross, and then you have the
Book of Acts, which is actuallya storyline of the Acts of the
Apostles, never meant to be awritten doctrine.
It wasn't a letter to thechurch on how to live by the
Spirit, for example.
Melissa (05:47):
Right.
Lenny (05:47):
It was Acts of the Apostles.
It was a storyline of what theydid.
You can learn from it, but itwas never meant to be an
apostolic letter.
Important to note.
How many times do you think theword disciple is used in our
letters from the apostles, inall the epistles?
How many times is the worddisciple used in those in the
writings of the apostles?
Melissa (06:09):
Well being that there's a discipleship doctrine out
there in the churches today, itwould seem that it would have to
be quite a bit.
Lenny (06:17):
You'd think it's got to be all over the place.
Right, you're going to say atleast it's got to be a handful
of times.
Melissa (06:23):
Paul would have had to have hammered it home.
Lenny (06:25):
Yeah, he would have to have, but similar to the whole
thing that we talk about with 1John, where we're supposed to
confess and ask for forgiveness,not mentioned in a single
epistle.
There's not one use of the worddisciple in our epistles.
Melissa (06:41):
That knocks my socks off.
Lenny (06:42):
Not one hint at being a disciple or discipling people or
making disciples of all nations.
Melissa (06:52):
So where is this doctrine coming from then?
Lenny (06:55):
Well Yeshua used the word all the time.
You see him using it all thetime, and so I think that's the
biggest argument that somebodywould have.
Well, Christ Yeshua uses theword all the time, and so I
think that's the biggestargument that somebody would
have.
Well, Christ Yeshua uses theword all the time, so we have to
honor that right.
Melissa (07:09):
Right.
Lenny (07:09):
But you hear that kind of lingo going on with people that
don't understand before andafter the cross as well.
So you have the time before thecross and after the cross and
you have to discern becauseChrist was under law, he was
teaching law, he was fulfillinglaw.
Discern because Christ wasunder law, he was teaching law,
he was fulfilling law, and wehave to be able to understand
what was law and what was gracewith what Christ said.
Melissa (07:31):
We do, or we will be very confused.
Lenny (07:33):
Yeah, so is discipling people.
Grace is the question.
So where does it come from?
Would this be more of a beforethe cross and resurrection or
more of a grace teaching?
That's what we have to look at.
That's what we have to figureout.
Is there context in the factthat Yeshua used the word all
the time for us under grace?
(07:54):
Okay, so what I see inscripture to paint a picture of
what I see is that he was usingthe word disciple to sway people
into the new covenant, becausewe never heard the word in the
old covenant when they had thelaw.
But then Christ came in with anew teaching, this new grace
(08:16):
teaching that was going tofulfill the law and reveal a
whole new view of the law, butalso fulfill it.
So essentially it was going tobe a new doctrine.
Melissa (08:28):
Yes.
Lenny (08:29):
So you have a new doctrine being established for
the new covenant age, and so theword disciple is going to be
being used.
So it doesn't surprise me thatwith a change of doctrine and
establishment of a new covenantage, you're going to hear that
word being used, right, right,what is the purpose of a
disciple?
What is the purpose?
(08:50):
Do we need to make disciples ofall nations?
You hear people say that.
So that's one of the primarycalls to action for discipleship
doctrine Go and make disciplesof all nations.
Our Lord told us this.
This is our mission.
We got to go out.
That means we got to go on amission trip, maybe.
So we got to go out into thesenations and there's a lot of
(09:12):
people that have that idea intheir mind when they go out on
missions trips all nations,right, right.
You hear that.
How do you think that appliesto us today?
Melissa (09:22):
I think that if you feel called to go and serve in
another country, serve somewhereother than right in your
hometown, go for it.
But I also believe that thatparticular mission was fulfilled
by the disciples at that time.
Lenny (09:38):
Yes, and specifically at Pentecost.
Amen, at Pentecost is wherethat mission was at least begun
and it would have been completed.
And I'm going to talk aboutPentecost, but at one point in
Paul's letter he mentions thatthe gospel has reached the ends
of the earth.
He says it in a way that it'salready happened.
Melissa (10:00):
That was the race he was running.
Lenny (10:02):
Yes.
Melissa (10:02):
So once it reached the ends, his race had been finished
, right yeah.
Lenny (10:06):
Yeah, and it sounds like I don't know which exact point
that he's referring to, but alot of people say that at
Pentecost this was fulfilled,Because if you look at Pentecost
, that was when the Holy Spiritcame upon everybody and other
nations were hearing them intheir language.
It doesn't even say they werespeaking another language.
It says the other nations werearound and heard them speaking
(10:28):
in their languages.
They were speaking and allthese people were hearing it in
their own languages.
Amazing.
But when you rewind back,Christ sent out the 12 and then
he sent out the 72.
Melissa (10:41):
Yes.
Lenny (10:42):
It's really the 70, but that's a whole nother topic.
So he sends out the 12, hesends out the 70.
What was their mission?
They were apostles at that timefor a message.
The message was the kingdom ofGod is here.
Messiah is here.
Melissa (10:56):
Yes.
Lenny (10:56):
But then what happened?
Cross happened, theresurrection happened, and then,
at Penteentecost, all thenations, just by chance,
happened to be, you know wherethey were gathering, and all of
a sudden peter's standing up.
He's declaring the gospel ofthe risen christ, the
forgiveness of sins and theresurrection of the dead, a
(11:20):
whole new addition to the gospelthat they were spreading before
.
This was reaching all thenations because they were all
there.
And they all went home withthat understanding.
Melissa (11:31):
Because they all heard it in their own language.
Lenny (11:34):
Yes.
Melissa (11:41):
I want to just quickly note.
Isn't that amazing that Peterwas the one to speak and deliver
that message because he haddenied Christ three times and he
was so sorrowful about it andthen he got to be the one to
make that declaration that'scool.
Lenny (11:54):
Yeah, for sure.
Melissa (11:55):
You know that Christ saved that special moment just
for him.
Lenny (12:00):
So you have the three passages.
You have Acts 1.8, mark 16.15,matthew 28, and they all read a
little bit differently.
But the one that uses the worddisciple says Go therefore and
make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of
the Father and the Son of theHoly Spirit.
This was right before Pentecost.
(12:21):
Then Pentecost happened.
You see Christ making a commandto them which he fulfilled in
them.
How hard did they have to workat that, think about that.
So he's telling them go out anddo this.
You know they're listening.
He tells them where to go andthey're there, they're present.
And then the Spirit comes withtongues of fire representing
(12:44):
God's presence.
And then, all of a sudden,they're preaching the gospel and
all the nations had beenscattered at Babel with
different languages, werehearing in one language.
Talk about a sign and wonder.
Melissa (12:55):
No kidding.
Lenny (12:57):
I think that kind of answers the question of what is
the purpose of the disciple,doesn't it?
Melissa (13:03):
Yeah, it does.
What was their?
Lenny (13:04):
purpose, fulfill the command of Christ.
Melissa (13:06):
And that happened.
Lenny (13:08):
Yeah.
Melissa (13:08):
So yeah.
Lenny (13:10):
But what was their purpose of being disciples all
that time?
It was learning, being taughtby Christ, and how much of that
did they really retain until theSpirit was given to them is the
question.
Melissa (13:22):
Well, Scripture shows us that they didn't understand
most of what christ was sayingyeah the whole time, those three
years, they were living withhim night and day, walking on
the earth.
Lenny (13:33):
They didn't understand what he was saying yeah, there's
a handful of passages, one ofthem specifically saying that
the truth was hidden from themand they didn't understand it
because they haven't been giventhe spirit Right.
You know, they're walkingaround, following him around,
he's teaching them.
So I guess, my point being,what did they do to become
(13:54):
disciples?
And even more so, the nextquestion I'm going to ask is can
we be disciples by our ownchoice or our own works?
Can we just say I'm going to bea disciple or I'm a disciple?
If we were going to say I'mgoing to be a disciple, then
we're going to talk about thediscipleship doctrine, because
that tells you salvation is here, but then discipleship is how
(14:18):
you achieve holiness, that's howyou achieve fellowship, that's
how you basically love god inreturn for his love, kind of
thing he'll be your friend he'llbe your friend.
Melissa (14:28):
He won't turn on you this is according to
discipleship doctor yeah, that'snot me saying this.
Lenny (14:34):
So can we be disciples by our own choice or our own works
?
I'm gonna spoil this.
We can't.
We can't choose to becomedisciples, can we?
No, we cannot okay, and we'regoing to get more into that, but
I want to see what scripturesays let's go for it so let's
see if we can support that viewin scripture all right if we
(14:56):
can't become a disciple by ourown works, then discipleship
doctrine doesn't even applyanymore, does it?
Melissa (15:05):
No.
Lenny (15:05):
Because that doctrine, as we're going to speak about, is
all based on works.
It's based on our works makingus holy.
So if we can prove that youcan't even become a disciple by
your own works, then we canprove that discipleship doctrine
is false.
Melissa (15:21):
Is it our works making us holy that they're saying, or
just our works making usobedient?
Lenny (15:29):
I've heard the word holy used specifically.
Melissa (15:33):
Oh, okay.
Lenny (15:34):
That's our way of achieving holiness.
We can achieve holiness.
I've heard it specifically saidthat way.
Melissa (15:39):
Okay.
Lenny (15:40):
By good teachers, ones that I hold in high regards, and
it makes me sad.
Melissa (15:44):
Yeah.
Lenny (15:45):
But I still regard them as brother.
They just don't see graceclearly.
Melissa (15:49):
Right.
Lenny (15:50):
Let's read scripture and see where they might be coming
from.
If there's any ground to standon, we're going to look at where
they're coming from so that wecan try to better understand it
rather than just throwing itunder the bus.
Melissa (16:01):
That's what spurred us to want to talk about this.
Yeah, just throwing it underthe bus, that's what spurred us
to want to talk about this.
Yeah, we have some favoriteteachers that we've learned a
lot from.
We have a lot of respect for,like you said, brothers in
christ, and we're trying tofigure out because we know that
they're genuine and we know thatthey are brothers in christ
where are they coming from?
Yeah, so we're trying to breakit down and more recently when
(16:22):
we were talking.
Lenny (16:23):
you know, as humans we get a little triggered,
sometimes get a little ampedwhen something is just not right
and you don't like it.
But you were mentioning earlierthis week when we were talking
about I'm starting to get alittle amped.
You were saying I'm just tryingto see where he's coming from
and I think that helps us alittle to understand people and
(16:43):
understand their error.
Like they are coming fromsomewhere.
We just have to help them getaway from.
That is the goal, not to tellthem they're not saved.
You're not my brother, youcan't be Christian.
If you believe that we shouldbe thinking of ways to try to
help them, Right.
Even if not them specifically,help others that might hear the
(17:05):
truth.
Melissa (17:06):
Amen.
Lenny (17:07):
Luke 14, 25 starts out.
Now great crowds accompaniedhim and he turned and said to
them If anyone comes to me anddoes not hate his own father and
mother and wife and childrenand brothers and sisters, yes,
and even his own life, he cannotbe my disciple.
Melissa (17:27):
Wow.
Lenny (17:29):
Ponder that for a minute.
Melissa (17:31):
Who could do that?
Lenny (17:32):
When you're thinking about yourself as a disciple.
Just ponder that a minute.
How did you get there?
How did you earn this?
Did you hate your mother?
Did you hate your own life?
Is that even possible?
Why would he say this Did?
Melissa (17:48):
you hate your mother, did you hate your own life?
Is that even possible?
Why would he say this and howcould he even want that?
He tells us to honor our fatherand mother.
Lenny (17:52):
It sounds like hypocrisy, right, but was it hyperbole?
Was it some kind of joke?
Was he just kidding around orwas he serious?
Are we to take this literally,figuratively?
I don't see any area where wecan make that discernment that
he was speaking figuratively.
I think he was dead serious.
I think, he was too.
(18:12):
Here's why I think that Becausethis is what he's trying to
tell you you want to be mydisciple?
You can't.
Melissa (18:20):
That's right, it's impossible.
Lenny (18:42):
You can't.
That doesn't mean that you'renot able to be, that's right.
He's saying hey, you, right now, you want to follow me.
Here's what you do.
Look at yourself right now, ifyou're out there, can you do
that?
You can't.
It's impossible and he's notasking you to.
He's not asking you to, he'sjust telling you this is what it
takes.
The heading on one of thetranslations says the cost of
(19:04):
being a disciple.
Melissa (19:05):
I like that.
Lenny (19:06):
That's the price you pay.
Are you willing to pay?
Can you pay that price?
Melissa (19:12):
So it's not that.
That's what it actually takes.
Lenny (19:15):
No, they didn't hate their families.
Peter had his wife with him.
Melissa (19:19):
Right, it's not that.
That's what it takes.
It was his way of showingpeople how impossible it was.
And you know.
Another part of that is that,for the Jewish people, they
would understand that they wouldhave to contradict the law in
order to do it, because you'resupposed to honor your father
and mother, love your neighborand love your neighbor.
It was a total contradiction tothe law.
Lenny (19:40):
It was a contradiction to all logic.
It just shatters your paradigmwhen he says that.
Melissa (19:46):
So in other words, it's unnatural.
Lenny (19:48):
Completely unnatural to be his disciple.
Melissa (19:53):
Unable to be done on your own accord.
Lenny (20:00):
Exactly so, then own accord, exactly so.
Then he continues, says and soyou've got to bear your own
cross.
Are you doing that?
Who out there is bearing theirown cross?
Was he talking to them?
I mean, are they bearing theirown cross to follow him?
For which of you desiring tobuild a tower does not first sit
down and count the cost,whether he has enough to
(20:20):
complete it?
Otherwise, when he has laid afoundation and is not able to
finish, all who see it begin tomock him, saying this man began
to build and was not able tofinish.
So he's talking about planning.
If you want to calculate thecost of being a disciple, think
about this, you guys, is whathe's saying.
Think about this, plan itcarefully.
And then he says or what kinggoing out to encounter another
(20:41):
king in war will not sit onfirst and deliberate whether he
is able, with 10,000, to meethim?
Who comes against him with20,000.
Think about this.
You're outnumbered here, guys,grossly outnumbered.
And then he says and if, if not, while the other is yet a great
way off, he sends a delegationand asks for terms of peace.
(21:02):
Who do you think that peace is?
Melissa (21:05):
none other than christ himself he's talking about
christ.
Lenny (21:09):
He's talking about himself.
He's saying you'd look forterms of peace.
It goes on to say so.
Therefore, any of you who doesnot renounce all that he has
cannot be my disciple.
So he's showing them they're upagainst an impossibility.
So what would they do?
According to what he said,they'd send out a delegation,
wouldn't they?
And ask for terms of peace.
He was already giving them alittle taste of what it means to
(21:33):
follow him.
I can't do it.
I need you.
Will you give me peace?
Would you expect that yourenemy owes you peace, or would
you be hoping that he gives youpeace because you didn't deserve
it?
You're his enemy.
Melissa (21:46):
You would be hoping.
Lenny (21:48):
So Christ was the peace.
What does it mean to be adisciple?
Sounds like belief for theirtime.
How are they even coming tothat belief?
So that brings you to the nextquestion.
If they can't do it by theirown works, all it is is a matter
of saying I can't do it, helpme.
If they can't do it, you can'teven become a disciple in the
(22:08):
first place.
That kind of messes up, thatdoctrine of discipleship.
But then let's take it a stepfurther.
What are the qualifications?
But then let's take it a stepfurther.
What are the qualifications?
So how do you do it?
So John, chapter 6, and theverse that Melissa is going to
read, right after those crazypassages where Christ Yeshua is
telling them they need to eathis flesh and drink his blood.
(22:31):
All these disciples there'smore than 12 around him.
Melissa (22:35):
Yes.
Lenny (22:36):
And all of a sudden they're all scattering Like.
This is creepy.
Eat his flesh, drink his blood.
I'm out of here.
Melissa (22:44):
I think he's a little cuckoo, cuckoo.
Lenny (22:45):
Yeah, and who wouldn't have thought he was crazy, right
?
I mean, let's face it.
There's no way you're notthinking this dude's out of his
mind.
Melissa (22:51):
No.
Lenny (22:52):
So this is what no avail.
Melissa (23:24):
The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and
life, but there are some of youwho do not believe, for Jesus
knew from the beginning whothose were that did not believe
and who it was who would betrayhim.
And he said this is why I toldyou that no one can come to me
unless it is granted him by theFather.
After this, many of hisdisciples turned back and no
longer walked with him.
So Jesus said to the twelve Doyou want to go away as well?
(23:49):
Simon Peter answered him.
(24:16):
Lord, to whom shall we?
Lenny (24:17):
go Okay, what are the qualifications?
The father has to grant it.
And then what happens when thefather grants you into the
kingdom?
You believe?
What was Peter's response, Lord?
But we believe.
So what made him a disciple?
What made all the otherso-called disciples scatter?
Melissa (24:37):
Unbelief.
Lenny (24:39):
They were really as Christ had said at one point.
They were there for the food.
Melissa (24:43):
Yes.
Lenny (24:44):
They called him disciples as they walked away.
That doesn't sound very closeto Christ, does it?
Melissa (24:49):
No, it does not.
Lenny (24:56):
Doesn't that sound more along the lines of somebody
who's following along with amessage and just kind of
following somebody?
They're following him, they'relistening, but does that make
you any more Christian?
Melissa (25:04):
No, it doesn't.
Lenny (25:05):
What made the disciples more Christian?
Melissa (25:09):
They've been chosen by God.
Lenny (25:11):
They were chosen.
And when they said Judas is adevil, we always think Satan.
And when they said Judas is adevil, we always think Satan.
And I know Satan entered hisheart.
It said but the word devilthere could actually be deceiver
, slanderer, false accuser it'sjust another word for that.
So it doesn't have to mean he'sSatan.
He was just, he was false.
And there again, he wasconsidered a disciple.
(25:33):
And so you're just thinking,okay, you know, you hear people
say like oh, we can just stopbeing a disciple anytime we want
.
And it's like well then, whatgood is it?
What's the point?
Why is it not used in theepistles?
On top of all that, in John 15,Christ goes on to say you did
not choose me, but I chose youand appointed you that you
(25:55):
should go and bear fruit andthat your fruit should abide.
I chose you, you did not chooseme.
He says we just have to believeit.
Melissa (26:04):
That's right.
Lenny (26:05):
We could argue that if we want to, but why?
What is there to argue?
Let's just be thankful for thatright.
Melissa (26:11):
That's right, right, so what I'm hearing you say is
that to believe, to be aconvinced believer of Christ, is
to be a disciple.
Lenny (26:25):
I don't see anything to build a doctrine called
discipleship where we achieveholiness and fellowship with God
.
You could say you're disciplingsomebody by teaching Christ.
You could say that it's notlike, it's inaccurate.
But how do you be a disciple?
If you were discipling somebody?
How do they become a disciple?
If you're going to use thatscenario, how would they become
one?
Melissa (26:45):
They would be chosen by God to believe.
Lenny (26:48):
I do know what the scripture tells us, how the
disciples became disciples andwhat the qualifications were it
was impossible for them to do inthe first place.
It's humanly impossible to be adisciple of Christ on your own
works.
He chose them, he enabled them.
They were able to believe,agreed, they believed because he
(27:09):
chose them for belief.
So all those things that he wassaying about hating your mother
, hating your father, he'ssaying you can't do it without
me.
The Father is going to grantyou discipleship.
If the Father has to grant itto you, how much can you work
for?
How much of that discipleship,if you're going to apply it to
today, are you working for?
(27:30):
How much have you earned?
How much of that are youcontributing to?
Zero that are you contributingto Zero?
See, this is wherepredestination helps grace along
, and this is why free will is aboon to grace.
In my opinion, it is when youunderstand that God's the one
choosing these guys.
We've got to step up our game.
(27:50):
If we're preachingpredestination and discipleship,
that's just a massive doubletalk, in my opinion.
I can't see it any other way.
What are you talking about?
Melissa (27:59):
I agree.
I think it's trying to blend inhuman understanding.
Shouldn't we be doing thesethings?
And yes, we should be doinggood things.
Lenny (28:09):
Well, what you're describing is you're saying that
people's motives.
They're trying to help people,they're trying to help people
understand in a human way, butthey're not accepting the
reality in scripture that Christjust told you you can't humanly
be a disciple, so why are youteaching in a human way, like
it's possible?
The discipleship we see inscripture is not worldly
discipleship, it's spiritualdiscipleship that is appointed
(28:33):
to us by the Father.
Melissa (28:35):
It is.
Lenny (28:36):
That wipes out discipleship, doctor.
And the funniest thing is isthat most of the preachers of
discipleship believe inpredestination.
I don't understand it.
Paul never taught how to be adisciple.
He taught that Christ Yeshua isour life force.
He is our fellowship, he is oursalvation, he is our
righteousness, he is ourholiness.
His work is finished.
(28:57):
You have been made perfect inhim.
You are as righteous as him nowand you are as holy as him now.
How many people understand thatyou're as righteous as Christ?
But the problem is is we getconfused because of positional
doctrines that divide that up.
It's the same thing asdiscipleship.
They're dividing it up.
They're slicing it intocategories.
(29:17):
Discipleship and fellowship arelike the same thing.
They make that same category.
Fellowship is basicallydiscipleship and you can be out
in and out in and out based onyour behavior.
Melissa (29:29):
According to that doctrine, According to that
doctrine.
Lenny (29:32):
But the problem is is that salvation when we read
scripture with properhermeneutics?
Salvation with Christ isfellowship with Christ, period.
There is no dividing categoryfor that.
Scripture doesn't teach us todivide that.
Melissa (29:46):
So would salvation be discipleship too.
Lenny (29:49):
You could look at it different ways.
I'd say, if you want to be adisciple, you can say well, yeah
, I mean, I'm a disciple byidentity.
You could say that because youare and you're always going to
be that way.
That's your identity now, justlike your fellowship with Christ
.
It's permanent.
You're not in and out every day.
You're not wondering if God'sholding something against you,
(30:12):
because punishment is based onthe past.
Punishment is payment andconsequence for something in the
past.
God doesn't punish, he doesn'twhip and scourge.
We've gone through thosepassages.
It's silly.
He disciplines, and disciplineis preparing us for the future.
Right, it may feel likepunishment, but it's not because
he's preparing us for thefuture and he's not mad, he's
(30:33):
not attacking us, he's notreleasing his wrath on us.
Those days are gone.
What is justification if it'snot being justified in your
worldly life now?
What good is it?
What good is it if it's acategory that only fits you in
heaven?
Well, we're heading into ournext part of the topic, which
(30:54):
was actually digging into thedoctrine of discipleship a
little bit, seeing what makes ittick, seeing what it's all
about and talking about it.
But we're out of time for today, so we'll actually be
continuing this one.
Next week Looks like there'sgoing to be a part two.
Melissa (31:11):
All right.
Lenny (31:11):
There's a lot to say about disciples and discipleship
.
In the beginning we asked thequestions what is the purpose of
a disciple?
What are the qualifications?
Can we be disciples?
I think we answered all thosepretty.
What is the purpose of adisciple?
What are the qualifications?
Can we be disciples?
I think we answered all thosepretty well.
A disciple of Christ was aspiritual thing.
It wasn't like being a discipleof anything else on this planet
, anything else in the world.
It was nothing like it.
True, it wasn't based on effort.
(31:32):
The qualification was that youwere chosen.
But we're going to see wherethey're coming from in that
doctrine and kind of dissect itnext week and talk some more
about this discipleship doctrine.
Yes, have a great week outthere.
Announcement (31:47):
Thank you for listening to the Waking Up to
Grace podcast brought to you bythe finished work of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
If you enjoyed today's episode,we would love to hear from you.
You can send encouragement ourway right from our episodes and
transcripts page or reach Lennyprivately from the contact form.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.