February 16, 2025 • 29 mins
This episode explores the deep connection between obedience and faith, challenging common misconceptions taught within many religious circles. We discuss how true obedience flows from a gift of grace, emphasizing that it cannot be earned and is symbolic of belief.
• Defining obedience in terms of faith versus self-effort
• Analyzing Paul’s teachings regarding grace in Romans
• Challenging the conflation of obedience with legalistic practices
• Sharing a real-life story of renewal and commitment
• Distinguishing divine love from worldly interpretations of love
• Encouraging listeners to cherish the grace experienced at salvation
• Highlighting the promise of security in Christ for believers
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Episode Transcript
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announcement (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Waking Up to Grace
podcast, where we celebrate andexplore the finished work of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
Tune in to the Waking Up toGrace podcast on every major
platform.
You can also listen to ourepisodes and read our full
transcripts atwakinguptogracecom.
And now here's Lenny.
Lenny (00:22):
Welcome back to the podcast, everyone.
announcement (00:23):
Welcome back.
Today we will continue ourstudy on.
Melissa (00:25):
Welcome back to the podcast.
Everyone, Welcome back.
Lenny (00:26):
Today we will continue our study on Paul's letter to
the Romans.
When you think about obedience,what is the first thing that
comes to mind?
I think of someone with goodself-control, someone who has
practiced discipline in theirlife and conducts themselves in
a way that would display thesethings to others.
The question is can we applythese things to faith?
(00:47):
And an even greater questionwould be is the Apostle Paul
mixing self-effort with faith inthese first passages that we
read in Romans?
According to many who teachscripture, this is what Paul is
doing here.
Melissa has a quote fromsomeone she found that I would
like to share for the sake ofperspective.
Melissa (01:05):
Yes, I was looking up the topic of the obedience of
faith and I found this quotefrom a pastor who calls his
church the New Covenant BaptistChurch.
He says this belief and action.
It involves living out theteachings of Christ, following
(01:26):
his commandments and cooperatingwith the grace of God.
It is through this obedience offaith that one participates in
the saving work of Christ andgrows in holiness.
Lenny (01:40):
I don't see Paul teaching anything like this to his
church, despite how good itsounds to our ears.
Actually, it would be quite theopposite.
Melissa (01:48):
In Ephesians 2.8, Paul writes For by grace you have
been saved through faith, andthis is not your own doing, it
is the gift of God.
Lenny (01:58):
So Paul explains here that you've been saved by grace
and it was through faith.
When he says that it is notyour doing, did he mean one and
not the other?
I don't have any doubts that hemeant both faith and grace are
a gift from Yahweh and they'renot our doing.
Melissa (02:15):
And then later in Romans, paul writes in chapter
11, verse 6, but if it is bygrace, it is no longer on the
basis of works.
Otherwise grace would no longerbe grace.
This alone is a majorindication of what Paul will be
(02:43):
describing in our apostle setapart for the gospel of God,
which he promised beforehandthrough his prophets in the holy
scriptures, concerning his son,who was descended from David
according to the flesh and wasdeclared to be the son of God in
power according to the spiritof, by his resurrection from the
(03:06):
dead.
Jesus Christ, our Lord, throughwhom we have received grace and
apostleship to bring about theobedience of faith, for the sake
of his name, among all thenations, including you, who are
called to belong to Jesus Christ, to all those in Rome who are
(03:26):
loved by God.
So can the concept of obediencebeing a work that we perform be
justified in Scripture?
Lenny (03:42):
Or is it just a lack of studying scripture and a lack of
contextual awareness thatcauses this view to be presented
in churchianity today?
It shouldn't surprise us thattoday's churches are being fed
information from their go-tosources, and many even pay for
this content.
Your pastor may not even beputting together his or her own
messages, let alone concerningthemselves with the context.
(04:04):
It's sad but true.
You hear it from honest peopleon the inside of these places.
But getting back to the context, there are other places in
scripture that describeobedience.
I think if we look at a coupleof these, we can get a pretty
clear picture of what Paul meansabout the obedience of faith.
Melissa (04:22):
In John 3.36, john the Baptist declares Whoever
believes in the Son has eternallife.
Whoever does not obey the Sonshall not see life, but the
wrath of God remains on him.
Lenny (04:37):
I see this passage highlighting with clarity the
fact that obedience is belief.
Let's read it once more so itcan really saturate Obedience is
belief.
Melissa (04:45):
Let's read it once more so it can really saturate.
Whoever believes in the Son haseternal life.
Whoever does not obey the Sonshall not see life, but the
wrath of God remains on him.
Lenny (04:58):
Can you see what I mean?
Obedience can certainly meansomething else, but in the case
of faith it cannot be by oureffort.
It is not something we can earn.
Although we don't earn faith,we can be given it in different
measures, it would seem inScripture.
Melissa (05:13):
In Romans 12.3, we read For by the grace given to me, I
say to everyone among you notto think of himself more highly
than he ought to think, but tothink with sober judgment, each
according to the measure offaith that God has assigned.
Lenny (05:30):
Paul even reveals in his letter to Timothy that a
Christian can be faithless, andyet Yahweh remains faithful In 2
Timothy 2.13,.
Melissa (05:43):
So we always remain in his faith.
If we are faithless, he remainsfaithful, for he cannot deny
himself.
Lenny (05:46):
So we always remain in his faith.
He cannot deny himself asmaking reference to Christ
Yeshua dwelling in us.
Whose faith is bigger, ours orYahweh's?
Don't forget, we have beengiven his faith as a gift and he
promised not to take it back.
In John 10.
Melissa (06:04):
28, yeshua says I give them eternal life and they will
never perish and no one willsnatch them out of my hand.
Lenny (06:14):
That's our Lord, christ Yeshua, talking about those who
are his, those who the Fathergave him.
To be clear, we are his when webelieve at salvation.
You can't change that Aftersalvation.
Your faith doesn't reallychange anything.
In a sense, it doesn't reallymatter.
It can't change your salvation,it doesn't change who you are
(06:35):
in Christ.
Melissa (06:36):
In 1 Corinthians, 13, 2 , we read and if I have
prophetic powers and understandall mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have prophetic powersand understand all mysteries and
all knowledge, and if I haveall faith so as to remove
mountains but have no love, I amnothing.
Lenny (06:54):
Faith was a spiritual gift in those times.
This could be why Paul mentionsmeasures being given in Romans
12.
But it doesn't change that itis given to us.
It would be given to us in adifferent way now.
Yahweh will teach us how tobuild on our faith if we desire
that, rather than just giving itto us in miraculous measure
(07:14):
without any training or learningrequired, like as if it was a
spiritual gift.
How do we get more if we wantit?
We have to go to the vine.
Yeshua teaches that he is thevine.
We are the branches.
Is it based on our specialskills?
Not at all.
I believe it's based onhumbling ourselves before our
Lord.
(07:34):
It's about desire.
It's about understanding hislove and mercy.
As we begin to cherish his lovefor us in increasing measure,
our lives are transformed.
His love is not like the lovewe see in the world.
It's not worldly love, it'sdivine.
This kind of love can producesuffering.
As a Christian, you mightexpress your love to someone by
(07:55):
sharing Christ and receivepersecution in return.
You might be willing to acceptthat because of your love for
that person who now might hateyou.
When you hear today'sprosperity preachers teach on
love, they don't teach of thislove.
These types would never offendanyone.
With the cross of Christ, theyfeed off of good vibes.
If Christ, Yeshua and hisapostles taught that way, they
(08:18):
would have been loved.
They would not have beenpersecuted.
Think about this for a minute.
Did you ever read of theapostles telling a non-believer
that Jesus loves them?
Did you ever hear Jesus tellthe unfaithful I love you?
Show me one passage to justifythat attitude.
You can't because it's notthere.
It would be the equivalent ofNoah boasting a banner on his
(08:41):
ark for the drowning people thatsays God loves you.
Melissa (08:45):
Pretty ridiculous, isn't it?
Lenny (08:47):
Yeah, and I'm not saying that we have to attack those
views and make fun of people ortell people Yahweh hates you.
Yahweh can use these things toopen the eyes of others.
We should only realize thatYahweh does not love everyone.
We also have to admit that wedon't know who Yahweh loves,
because all of his elect havenot come to faith yet.
The invitation of Christ isavailable to all, but faith and
(09:10):
belief are a gift from Yahweh,and I know Melissa had looked up
several definitions of some keywords in our passage about
obedience to faith and I'd liketo hear some of those.
What do you got for us?
Melissa (09:23):
Well, I'm kind of on a roll with this.
Lenny (09:25):
You and Webster are getting along, aren't you?
Melissa (09:27):
I've found it very helpful, as I've mentioned
before, to look these words upin the English dictionary and
see what unfolds there.
I was particularly amazed tosee how much the word of had to
give.
We'll get to that in a minute.
I looked up obedient orobedience of, and faith, so
(09:50):
we'll start with the wordobedient.
As you might imagine, thismeans compliant, conformable,
submissive, submissive to therestraint or command of
authority, readily amendable orreadily brought to yield, easily
controlled or tractable.
Okay, so that's what Websterhas to say about to be obedient.
(10:15):
And then the word of from, soobedience, from faith.
As we were talking about, ourobedience comes from faith.
We're not obedient and then wereceive faith.
So, continuing with of havingas a significant background or
(10:35):
character element, having as asignificant background or
character element, and as saints, we know that we certainly have
a significant backgroundbecause we were chosen
beforehand, before the creationof the world.
Yahweh foreknew us and heforeloved us, we're told.
We have the mind of Christ.
He is in us and we are in him.
(10:55):
He will never leave us.
He will never forsake us.
No one can snatch us from theFather's hand.
We now have what it takes to beobedient in our Lord, the faith
that comes from Yeshua.
Lenny (11:08):
Amen.
Melissa (11:09):
So we certainly have a significant background and
character.
Element Of can mean by and fromthat, I thought, thought faith
makes us obedient, faithproduces belief.
We owe our obedience to thefaith given us by Jesus Christ,
our Lord, continuing on havingas component parts or material
(11:33):
contents or members, such as ahouse of brick, a glass of water
, and we've talked before how weare parts of the body of Christ
.
He is the head.
We come together, the saints,to make up the body right.
So we certainly have thecomponents and parts.
Lenny (11:53):
Yeah, and he's the cornerstone.
Melissa (11:55):
Right Christ being the cornerstone and the head.
Lenny (11:58):
He's the foundation of our faith.
He's the brick house.
He's a brick house.
Melissa (12:07):
He's mighty mighty he is.
Then we have belonging to orincluded by, such as the front
of the house, the son of adoctor, and my thinking went
here we, the church, the saintsagain, are the body of Christ
the father gave us to the son asa love gift for his sacrifice.
(12:29):
Of those that the father gavehim, he lost none.
He is in us and we are in him.
So we are certainly belongingto christ and included in the
church by the father.
That's what I have for of.
Lenny (12:44):
I thought that was pretty cool to show how obedience is
of faith yeah, I like how youtook a simple word and started
pulling up some meaning thatwouldn't just come to your mind
automatically.
Melissa (12:57):
It shows the depths of what's trying to be said here by
Paul.
Lenny (13:00):
Yeah.
Melissa (13:01):
And then we have faith, the gift that comes from God,
from his grace.
He gave us faith.
It's allegiance to duty or aperson, loyalty, belief and
trust in God.
And that's complete trust,constancy, dedication, devotion,
(13:22):
fastness.
We hear that a lot Paul sayhold fast, steadfastness,
confidence, conforming to thefacts or to an original,
conforming to the facts or to anoriginal.
So we're able to be all thesethings to Yahweh because of the
faith that he gave us.
Lenny (13:43):
Yeah, that happens at salvation.
All those things happen atsalvation.
You wouldn't have been saved ifyou didn't have that allegiance
.
That's how you were saved.
Melissa (13:55):
And that's how we're obedient.
Lenny (13:56):
You accepted Christ's offer of life.
How much more trust can youdisplay in somebody?
Melissa (14:03):
That's complete trust.
Lenny (14:05):
You trust them with your life.
You trust them to give you life, you trust that they are life.
I mean that's a big trust.
Melissa (14:11):
And that trust is how we are obedient.
Lenny (14:16):
So when we're given this great gift, we're immediately
consumed with joy and excitement, aren't we?
Yeah, we are.
What an amazing moment whenChrist Yeshua reveals himself to
us and we are saved.
But I think I'm not alone whenI say I've had times in life
where I felt less than excitedabout my faith.
It was always there, but theenthusiasm fizzled out and maybe
(14:38):
got set on the back burner fora time.
Difficult times can pull ustoward our Lord or can push us
away from Him, can't they?
Melissa (14:47):
This is true.
Lenny (14:48):
What a blessing when he sends us a wake-up call after
using our experiences todiscipline us and train us in
endurance.
In my experience, when we'refeeling like things are fizzled
out, when we're feeling like weneed more grace, we have to go
back to the beginning for amoment to consider where we've
gone wrong, where we're in errorand how to get back to the
(15:10):
place of joy and enthusiasm thatwe had in the beginning.
It makes me think of theexperience Melissa had with a
couple in our close circles.
You want to tell the story,melissa?
Melissa (15:21):
Yes, I'd love to.
We're going to call the coupleDavid and Joan.
David and Joan were a pillarcouple.
They were a couple we couldlook to when we were having our
struggles and we could modelourselves.
After and about a year after youand I got married and trying to
navigate through how to meshour personalities and have the
(15:43):
best marriage that we could andhaving our own struggles, I
received a call from Joan.
She divulged that she wasthinking about leaving David
because their marriage had beenstruggling for a long time now.
Because their marriage had beenstruggling for a long time now.
And I was blindsided.
I had no idea.
This couple is very faithful tothe Lord, fellow Christians,
(16:05):
and they were doing a good jobof not displaying the struggles
that they were having.
So it really took me bysurprise.
Joan was really beside herself,not knowing what to do, and I
could tell she was just graspingfor straws.
She was calling me because sheloved me and just hoping for
some kind of direction.
And here I am, this young,newly married Christian, and I'm
(16:28):
thinking what kind of advicecan I give to the very person
that I look up to?
But, being that I was still atthe beginning of our marriage
and very much overwhelmed withlove for Lenny, for you.
Lenny (16:45):
It's easy to do.
Melissa (16:46):
Yeah, you know how it is in the first, especially the
first year of marriage, not muchtakes your focus off of that
person, and as time goes on,there's so many other things to
focus on.
But at that time my focus wasvery much on Lenny and all I
could think about was how much Iloved him, and all I could
think about was how much I knewJoan loved David and how
(17:09):
frightening and tragic it wouldbe if the two of them weren't
together and how lonely shewould feel if she didn't have
him him and vice versa.
And so I asked her when shesaid what do you think if I were
to leave David?
And I said well, do you lovehim?
And she paused for a moment andsaid yes, confidently.
And she said you know, I justgot off the phone with my best
(17:37):
friend and she asked me the samequestion.
Now, her best friend is also aChristian with many years of
marriage behind her and the Lordguiding her marriage.
So the Lord was certainly atwork there.
But right away I could hear hervoice perk up and she seemed to
know exactly what she needed todo.
And this was over 20 years agoand I'm proud in Christ to say
that David and Joan are stillmarried and more in love and
(18:00):
happier than they've ever been.
Lenny (18:02):
The renewal came and I think maybe this is the reason
people get re-baptized.
You know you could look like.
Well, why would anybody getbaptized again?
Why don't anybody want todeclare and renew their love for
Christ again publicly, likesome people do?
Or maybe a renewing of vows in amarriage too, yeah it doesn't
have to mean all that person'sunder legalism Could just be
(18:22):
that they're feeling a renewedpower of grace working in them
because they went back to thebeginning again and realized
this is all I have to do is Ijust got to remember God's love
that happened at the beginning.
I got to remember that momentthat I had at salvation and
build on that.
And so David and Joan went backand they built on that, and
(18:42):
after that what they built justbecame stronger than ever.
Melissa (18:46):
Stronger than ever.
Lenny (18:47):
We don't necessarily have to look at it like starting all
over, but maybe it's just timeto kind of go back to the
beginning and build again.
Melissa (18:55):
I like how you said it to me this past week.
You said cherish the beliefthat we received at salvation.
Lenny (19:02):
Exactly so.
Are we living by the faith thatwe received at salvation?
Are we living by the love wefirst experienced when we came
to Christ, or have we falleninto traditions and
self-discipline?
Are we living a life guided bythe love of God or the love that
we learn from the world?
The world would have told Davidand Joan maybe you just need to
(19:25):
go your own way.
Worldly love will never teachyou to love your enemies.
Worldly love cannot teach youhow to love others as Christ
loved you.
As we heard earlier from thatquote Melissa found from a
pastor figure with mainstreamviews, churchianity is teaching
people that if you love Christ,you will keep his commandments.
They make his commandments aset of rules based on his
(19:48):
teachings that he made in thecontext of law.
Christ was in fact, a teacherof law.
He was the greatest teacher oflaw to ever walk the earth.
But we're not under law, we'reunder grace.
We're under his grace.
If we look for rules in theBible, we'll find them.
If we seek grace, the scripturewill set us free.
(20:10):
I've always said keeping thecommands of Christ is to cherish
and make precious the commandsof Christ.
This is not done throughkeeping the rules.
This is done freely by faith.
What would happen if we tookaway the rules of law and order
in our country?
Would people continue to followthem?
The will of Yahweh is for us toserve freely from the heart.
(20:31):
He took away the rules and puta counselor in their place.
A counselor does not punish.
A counselor is there to guideyou.
Christ Yeshua is your personalcounselor, and what would that
counselor be guiding us toward?
What did he teach his disciples?
Let's start with what John saidabout Christ Yeshua a short
(20:52):
time before he would handhimself over to be crucified.
In John 13,1 we read he lovedhis own who were in the world
(21:13):
and loved them to the end, thoseof little faith, as he called
them.
He cherished them as his own.
Nothing they could do wouldchange that.
Melissa (21:22):
In John 13, 34, we read A new commandment I give to you
that you will love one another.
Just as I have loved you, youalso are to love one another.
Lenny (21:34):
And he says this again later in chapter 15, verse 12.
Melissa (21:48):
And then again he says it in John 15, 14-17.
No longer do I call youservants, for the servant does
not know what his master isdoing, but I have called you
friends, for all that I haveheard from my Father, I have
made known to you you did notchoose me, but I chose you and
appointed you that you should goand bear fruit and that your
(22:10):
fruit should abide, so thatwhatever you ask the Father in
my name, he may give it to you.
These things I command you sothat you will love one another.
Lenny (22:21):
So how do we know if we are a friend of Christ?
How do we know if we love him?
What did he tell his disciples?
This is where people stopreading and start making their
rules.
This is where we are told bymany we don't love Christ if we
don't follow his rules.
We're not his friend if wedon't follow his rules.
(22:42):
Those, under this teaching,find themselves in and out of
love, in and out of fellowship,in and out of friendship.
What did John say about thelove Christ Yeshua had for his
disciples?
Melissa (22:55):
He loved them to the end.
Lenny (22:58):
I don't hear of anything that sounds like in and out of
love in this statement, do you?
Melissa (23:03):
No.
Lenny (23:04):
What we see here is a perfect love that was never
broken.
Melissa (23:08):
Amen.
Yeshua goes on to say but Ihave called you friends.
For all that I have heard frommy Father I have made known to
you.
Lenny (23:18):
Why did he call?
Melissa (23:18):
them friends.
Lenny (23:24):
So what was the command then?
It was believe.
It was believe in his love.
Have faith in his love, notyour own.
And he continues.
Melissa (23:35):
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed
you that you should go and bearfruit and that your fruit should
abide.
Lenny (23:45):
And then combine that with.
Melissa (23:47):
John 10, 28.
I give them eternal life andthey will never perish, and no
one will snatch them out of myhand.
Lenny (23:57):
Christians, you are not in and out of fellowship with
Yahweh.
In reality, if we want to feelclose to God, we need to desire
his fruit, not the fruit of theworld.
We need the counselor to teachus how to live by our new divine
nature.
Although we have a divinenature, living by it does not
seem to come naturally, but itdoes come spiritually.
(24:18):
We can trust Christ Yeshua.
We can trust that when wedesire to please him, we will
bear much fruit If we cherishhim.
We will not be led astray.
If we keep his commands, if wehold tightly to his commands, if
we cherish them and cling tothem tightly, we will be blessed
.
If someone gave you a great gift, would you toss it aside or put
(24:40):
it somewhere it could get lost,or would you cover it up?
Of course not, and we shouldkeep the commands of Christ safe
and secure and where we can bereminded of them regularly.
Let's not cover this up.
Let it shine in your life.
Don't close your eyes to it andact like those who walk in
darkness.
When we close our eyes, it getsdark, doesn't it?
(25:01):
We can be guided by Paul'sspiritual guidance.
Melissa (25:05):
Romans 12.2.
Do not be conformed to thisworld, but be transformed by the
renewal of your mind that bytesting you may discern what is
the rules and regulations.
Paul wrote In Romans 3.27,believers, we love Christ.
(25:30):
By what kind of law?
By a law of works, no, but bythe law of faith.
Lenny (25:38):
Believers, we love Christ .
We don't need rules from ourchurch to govern us.
Let's be guided by thecounselor.
We love Christ Yeshua, so let'sact like it.
We can sum up all the newcovenant teaching on sin in this
way.
This is what I believe Paulmade so much effort in teaching
his churches, and we will seethis beautiful message unfold
(25:59):
more and more as we go throughhis letter to the Romans.
We don't need better rulekeeping.
We need a genuine desire, adesire that does not come from
fear of punishment or some kindof special reward.
We have received our reward.
We just have to realize howgreat it is.
If we go back to the love wefelt from Yahweh when we first
(26:20):
believed and build on that, wecan live an abundant life in
Christ, a life that is alreadyours, but most have lost sight
of it.
And then there are those whocall themselves Christians, who
preach worldly love.
Those who teach worldly lovewill be embraced by the world.
Whatever those teachers aredoesn't mean anything to me.
They don't preach Christcrucified.
(26:40):
In 1 Corinthians 1.23, paulsaid but we preach Christ
crucified a stumbling block tothe Jews and folly to Gentiles.
Yeshua reminded his disciples ofwhat would happen to them and
can happen to us as well, whenwe share the love of Christ,
when we share the cross ofChrist and the resurrection life
(27:02):
of Christ, when we proclaimwhat Christ proclaimed in John
14 6.
Melissa (27:07):
Jesus said to him I am the way and the truth and the
life.
No one comes to the Fatherexcept through me.
Lenny (27:17):
If those prosperity preachers taught this before
their message every day, theywouldn't like the results, would
they?
Melissa (27:23):
Certainly not.
Lenny (27:25):
Yeshua told his disciples in John 15, 18,.
Melissa (27:29):
If the world hates you, know that it hated me before.
It hated you.
If you were of the world, theworld would love you as its own.
But because you are not of theworld but I chose you out of the
world, therefore the worldhates you.
Remember the word that I saidto you a servant is not greater
than his master.
(27:49):
If they persecuted me, theywill also persecute you.
If they kept my word, they willalso keep yours.
But all these things they willdo to you on account of my name,
because they do not know himwho sent me.
Lenny (28:07):
When we're overcome by troubles, we have to remember
that Christ did promise thatthese things would happen.
This only proves all the morethat we can trust him.
Many see this as a reason toquestion Yahweh.
We should be cautious whentaking this view, as tempting as
it might be.
Satan's view was that Yahwehwas not just.
Yahweh was not fair.
(28:27):
Yahweh was not loving.
He took pride in a differenttype of love, a worldly type of
love.
Melissa (28:35):
A bit later, yeshua adds in John 16.33, I have said
these things to you that in meyou may have peace In the world.
You will have tribulation, buttake heart, I have overcome the
world.
Lenny (28:51):
Yeshua promises that he has overcome the world.
We just have to trust him onthat.
He is the author of life.
Why would we want to follow theviews of Satan, who is no more?
Satan could not give life toothers and he couldn't raise
himself from the dead.
Yahweh is God Most High, andwhen you believe, you share in
his resurrection life.
(29:12):
Life is too short to live likethe dead.
Let's make the most of everymoment.
Amen.
I hope you have a great day outthere.
Melissa (29:21):
Until next time.
announcement (29:24):
Thank you for listening to the Waking Up to
Grace podcast brought to you bythe finished work of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
If you enjoyed today's episode,we would love to hear from you.
You can send encouragement ourway right from our episodes and
transcripts page or reach Lennyprivately from the contact form
at wakinguptogracecom.
Hello and welcome to the Waking Up to Grace
podcast, where we celebrate andexplore the finished work of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
Tune in to the Waking Up toGrace podcast on every major
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transcripts atwakinguptogracecom.
And now here's Lenny.
Lenny (00:22):
Welcome back to the podcast, everyone.
announcement (00:23):
Welcome back.
Today we will continue ourstudy on.
Melissa (00:25):
Welcome back to the podcast.
Everyone, Welcome back.
Lenny (00:26):
Today we will continue our study on Paul's letter to
the Romans.
When you think about obedience,what is the first thing that
comes to mind?
I think of someone with goodself-control, someone who has
practiced discipline in theirlife and conducts themselves in
a way that would display thesethings to others.
The question is can we applythese things to faith?
(00:47):
And an even greater questionwould be is the Apostle Paul
mixing self-effort with faith inthese first passages that we
read in Romans?
According to many who teachscripture, this is what Paul is
doing here.
Melissa has a quote fromsomeone she found that I would
like to share for the sake ofperspective.
Melissa (01:05):
Yes, I was looking up the topic of the obedience of
faith and I found this quotefrom a pastor who calls his
church the New Covenant BaptistChurch.
He says this belief and action.
It involves living out theteachings of Christ, following
(01:26):
his commandments and cooperatingwith the grace of God.
It is through this obedience offaith that one participates in
the saving work of Christ andgrows in holiness.
Lenny (01:40):
I don't see Paul teaching anything like this to his
church, despite how good itsounds to our ears.
Actually, it would be quite theopposite.
Melissa (01:48):
In Ephesians 2.8, Paul writes For by grace you have
been saved through faith, andthis is not your own doing, it
is the gift of God.
Lenny (01:58):
So Paul explains here that you've been saved by grace
and it was through faith.
When he says that it is notyour doing, did he mean one and
not the other?
I don't have any doubts that hemeant both faith and grace are
a gift from Yahweh and they'renot our doing.
Melissa (02:15):
And then later in Romans, paul writes in chapter
11, verse 6, but if it is bygrace, it is no longer on the
basis of works.
Otherwise grace would no longerbe grace.
This alone is a majorindication of what Paul will be
(02:43):
describing in our apostle setapart for the gospel of God,
which he promised beforehandthrough his prophets in the holy
scriptures, concerning his son,who was descended from David
according to the flesh and wasdeclared to be the son of God in
power according to the spiritof, by his resurrection from the
(03:06):
dead.
Jesus Christ, our Lord, throughwhom we have received grace and
apostleship to bring about theobedience of faith, for the sake
of his name, among all thenations, including you, who are
called to belong to Jesus Christ, to all those in Rome who are
(03:26):
loved by God.
So can the concept of obediencebeing a work that we perform be
justified in Scripture?
Lenny (03:42):
Or is it just a lack of studying scripture and a lack of
contextual awareness thatcauses this view to be presented
in churchianity today?
It shouldn't surprise us thattoday's churches are being fed
information from their go-tosources, and many even pay for
this content.
Your pastor may not even beputting together his or her own
messages, let alone concerningthemselves with the context.
(04:04):
It's sad but true.
You hear it from honest peopleon the inside of these places.
But getting back to the context, there are other places in
scripture that describeobedience.
I think if we look at a coupleof these, we can get a pretty
clear picture of what Paul meansabout the obedience of faith.
Melissa (04:22):
In John 3.36, john the Baptist declares Whoever
believes in the Son has eternallife.
Whoever does not obey the Sonshall not see life, but the
wrath of God remains on him.
Lenny (04:37):
I see this passage highlighting with clarity the
fact that obedience is belief.
Let's read it once more so itcan really saturate Obedience is
belief.
Melissa (04:45):
Let's read it once more so it can really saturate.
Whoever believes in the Son haseternal life.
Whoever does not obey the Sonshall not see life, but the
wrath of God remains on him.
Lenny (04:58):
Can you see what I mean?
Obedience can certainly meansomething else, but in the case
of faith it cannot be by oureffort.
It is not something we can earn.
Although we don't earn faith,we can be given it in different
measures, it would seem inScripture.
Melissa (05:13):
In Romans 12.3, we read For by the grace given to me, I
say to everyone among you notto think of himself more highly
than he ought to think, but tothink with sober judgment, each
according to the measure offaith that God has assigned.
Lenny (05:30):
Paul even reveals in his letter to Timothy that a
Christian can be faithless, andyet Yahweh remains faithful In 2
Timothy 2.13,.
Melissa (05:43):
So we always remain in his faith.
If we are faithless, he remainsfaithful, for he cannot deny
himself.
Lenny (05:46):
So we always remain in his faith.
He cannot deny himself asmaking reference to Christ
Yeshua dwelling in us.
Whose faith is bigger, ours orYahweh's?
Don't forget, we have beengiven his faith as a gift and he
promised not to take it back.
In John 10.
Melissa (06:04):
28, yeshua says I give them eternal life and they will
never perish and no one willsnatch them out of my hand.
Lenny (06:14):
That's our Lord, christ Yeshua, talking about those who
are his, those who the Fathergave him.
To be clear, we are his when webelieve at salvation.
You can't change that Aftersalvation.
Your faith doesn't reallychange anything.
In a sense, it doesn't reallymatter.
It can't change your salvation,it doesn't change who you are
(06:35):
in Christ.
Melissa (06:36):
In 1 Corinthians, 13, 2 , we read and if I have
prophetic powers and understandall mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have prophetic powersand understand all mysteries and
all knowledge, and if I haveall faith so as to remove
mountains but have no love, I amnothing.
Lenny (06:54):
Faith was a spiritual gift in those times.
This could be why Paul mentionsmeasures being given in Romans
12.
But it doesn't change that itis given to us.
It would be given to us in adifferent way now.
Yahweh will teach us how tobuild on our faith if we desire
that, rather than just giving itto us in miraculous measure
(07:14):
without any training or learningrequired, like as if it was a
spiritual gift.
How do we get more if we wantit?
We have to go to the vine.
Yeshua teaches that he is thevine.
We are the branches.
Is it based on our specialskills?
Not at all.
I believe it's based onhumbling ourselves before our
Lord.
(07:34):
It's about desire.
It's about understanding hislove and mercy.
As we begin to cherish his lovefor us in increasing measure,
our lives are transformed.
His love is not like the lovewe see in the world.
It's not worldly love, it'sdivine.
This kind of love can producesuffering.
As a Christian, you mightexpress your love to someone by
(07:55):
sharing Christ and receivepersecution in return.
You might be willing to acceptthat because of your love for
that person who now might hateyou.
When you hear today'sprosperity preachers teach on
love, they don't teach of thislove.
These types would never offendanyone.
With the cross of Christ, theyfeed off of good vibes.
If Christ, Yeshua and hisapostles taught that way, they
(08:18):
would have been loved.
They would not have beenpersecuted.
Think about this for a minute.
Did you ever read of theapostles telling a non-believer
that Jesus loves them?
Did you ever hear Jesus tellthe unfaithful I love you?
Show me one passage to justifythat attitude.
You can't because it's notthere.
It would be the equivalent ofNoah boasting a banner on his
(08:41):
ark for the drowning people thatsays God loves you.
Melissa (08:45):
Pretty ridiculous, isn't it?
Lenny (08:47):
Yeah, and I'm not saying that we have to attack those
views and make fun of people ortell people Yahweh hates you.
Yahweh can use these things toopen the eyes of others.
We should only realize thatYahweh does not love everyone.
We also have to admit that wedon't know who Yahweh loves,
because all of his elect havenot come to faith yet.
The invitation of Christ isavailable to all, but faith and
(09:10):
belief are a gift from Yahweh,and I know Melissa had looked up
several definitions of some keywords in our passage about
obedience to faith and I'd liketo hear some of those.
What do you got for us?
Melissa (09:23):
Well, I'm kind of on a roll with this.
Lenny (09:25):
You and Webster are getting along, aren't you?
Melissa (09:27):
I've found it very helpful, as I've mentioned
before, to look these words upin the English dictionary and
see what unfolds there.
I was particularly amazed tosee how much the word of had to
give.
We'll get to that in a minute.
I looked up obedient orobedience of, and faith, so
(09:50):
we'll start with the wordobedient.
As you might imagine, thismeans compliant, conformable,
submissive, submissive to therestraint or command of
authority, readily amendable orreadily brought to yield, easily
controlled or tractable.
Okay, so that's what Websterhas to say about to be obedient.
(10:15):
And then the word of from, soobedience, from faith.
As we were talking about, ourobedience comes from faith.
We're not obedient and then wereceive faith.
So, continuing with of havingas a significant background or
(10:35):
character element, having as asignificant background or
character element, and as saints, we know that we certainly have
a significant backgroundbecause we were chosen
beforehand, before the creationof the world.
Yahweh foreknew us and heforeloved us, we're told.
We have the mind of Christ.
He is in us and we are in him.
(10:55):
He will never leave us.
He will never forsake us.
No one can snatch us from theFather's hand.
We now have what it takes to beobedient in our Lord, the faith
that comes from Yeshua.
Lenny (11:08):
Amen.
Melissa (11:09):
So we certainly have a significant background and
character.
Element Of can mean by and fromthat, I thought, thought faith
makes us obedient, faithproduces belief.
We owe our obedience to thefaith given us by Jesus Christ,
our Lord, continuing on havingas component parts or material
(11:33):
contents or members, such as ahouse of brick, a glass of water
, and we've talked before how weare parts of the body of Christ
.
He is the head.
We come together, the saints,to make up the body right.
So we certainly have thecomponents and parts.
Lenny (11:53):
Yeah, and he's the cornerstone.
Melissa (11:55):
Right Christ being the cornerstone and the head.
Lenny (11:58):
He's the foundation of our faith.
He's the brick house.
He's a brick house.
Melissa (12:07):
He's mighty mighty he is.
Then we have belonging to orincluded by, such as the front
of the house, the son of adoctor, and my thinking went
here we, the church, the saintsagain, are the body of Christ
the father gave us to the son asa love gift for his sacrifice.
(12:29):
Of those that the father gavehim, he lost none.
He is in us and we are in him.
So we are certainly belongingto christ and included in the
church by the father.
That's what I have for of.
Lenny (12:44):
I thought that was pretty cool to show how obedience is
of faith yeah, I like how youtook a simple word and started
pulling up some meaning thatwouldn't just come to your mind
automatically.
Melissa (12:57):
It shows the depths of what's trying to be said here by
Paul.
Lenny (13:00):
Yeah.
Melissa (13:01):
And then we have faith, the gift that comes from God,
from his grace.
He gave us faith.
It's allegiance to duty or aperson, loyalty, belief and
trust in God.
And that's complete trust,constancy, dedication, devotion,
(13:22):
fastness.
We hear that a lot Paul sayhold fast, steadfastness,
confidence, conforming to thefacts or to an original,
conforming to the facts or to anoriginal.
So we're able to be all thesethings to Yahweh because of the
faith that he gave us.
Lenny (13:43):
Yeah, that happens at salvation.
All those things happen atsalvation.
You wouldn't have been saved ifyou didn't have that allegiance
.
That's how you were saved.
Melissa (13:55):
And that's how we're obedient.
Lenny (13:56):
You accepted Christ's offer of life.
How much more trust can youdisplay in somebody?
Melissa (14:03):
That's complete trust.
Lenny (14:05):
You trust them with your life.
You trust them to give you life, you trust that they are life.
I mean that's a big trust.
Melissa (14:11):
And that trust is how we are obedient.
Lenny (14:16):
So when we're given this great gift, we're immediately
consumed with joy and excitement, aren't we?
Yeah, we are.
What an amazing moment whenChrist Yeshua reveals himself to
us and we are saved.
But I think I'm not alone whenI say I've had times in life
where I felt less than excitedabout my faith.
It was always there, but theenthusiasm fizzled out and maybe
(14:38):
got set on the back burner fora time.
Difficult times can pull ustoward our Lord or can push us
away from Him, can't they?
Melissa (14:47):
This is true.
Lenny (14:48):
What a blessing when he sends us a wake-up call after
using our experiences todiscipline us and train us in
endurance.
In my experience, when we'refeeling like things are fizzled
out, when we're feeling like weneed more grace, we have to go
back to the beginning for amoment to consider where we've
gone wrong, where we're in errorand how to get back to the
(15:10):
place of joy and enthusiasm thatwe had in the beginning.
It makes me think of theexperience Melissa had with a
couple in our close circles.
You want to tell the story,melissa?
Melissa (15:21):
Yes, I'd love to.
We're going to call the coupleDavid and Joan.
David and Joan were a pillarcouple.
They were a couple we couldlook to when we were having our
struggles and we could modelourselves.
After and about a year after youand I got married and trying to
navigate through how to meshour personalities and have the
(15:43):
best marriage that we could andhaving our own struggles, I
received a call from Joan.
She divulged that she wasthinking about leaving David
because their marriage had beenstruggling for a long time now.
Because their marriage had beenstruggling for a long time now.
And I was blindsided.
I had no idea.
This couple is very faithful tothe Lord, fellow Christians,
(16:05):
and they were doing a good jobof not displaying the struggles
that they were having.
So it really took me bysurprise.
Joan was really beside herself,not knowing what to do, and I
could tell she was just graspingfor straws.
She was calling me because sheloved me and just hoping for
some kind of direction.
And here I am, this young,newly married Christian, and I'm
(16:28):
thinking what kind of advicecan I give to the very person
that I look up to?
But, being that I was still atthe beginning of our marriage
and very much overwhelmed withlove for Lenny, for you.
Lenny (16:45):
It's easy to do.
Melissa (16:46):
Yeah, you know how it is in the first, especially the
first year of marriage, not muchtakes your focus off of that
person, and as time goes on,there's so many other things to
focus on.
But at that time my focus wasvery much on Lenny and all I
could think about was how much Iloved him, and all I could
think about was how much I knewJoan loved David and how
(17:09):
frightening and tragic it wouldbe if the two of them weren't
together and how lonely shewould feel if she didn't have
him him and vice versa.
And so I asked her when shesaid what do you think if I were
to leave David?
And I said well, do you lovehim?
And she paused for a moment andsaid yes, confidently.
And she said you know, I justgot off the phone with my best
(17:37):
friend and she asked me the samequestion.
Now, her best friend is also aChristian with many years of
marriage behind her and the Lordguiding her marriage.
So the Lord was certainly atwork there.
But right away I could hear hervoice perk up and she seemed to
know exactly what she needed todo.
And this was over 20 years agoand I'm proud in Christ to say
that David and Joan are stillmarried and more in love and
(18:00):
happier than they've ever been.
Lenny (18:02):
The renewal came and I think maybe this is the reason
people get re-baptized.
You know you could look like.
Well, why would anybody getbaptized again?
Why don't anybody want todeclare and renew their love for
Christ again publicly, likesome people do?
Or maybe a renewing of vows in amarriage too, yeah it doesn't
have to mean all that person'sunder legalism Could just be
(18:22):
that they're feeling a renewedpower of grace working in them
because they went back to thebeginning again and realized
this is all I have to do is Ijust got to remember God's love
that happened at the beginning.
I got to remember that momentthat I had at salvation and
build on that.
And so David and Joan went backand they built on that, and
(18:42):
after that what they built justbecame stronger than ever.
Melissa (18:46):
Stronger than ever.
Lenny (18:47):
We don't necessarily have to look at it like starting all
over, but maybe it's just timeto kind of go back to the
beginning and build again.
Melissa (18:55):
I like how you said it to me this past week.
You said cherish the beliefthat we received at salvation.
Lenny (19:02):
Exactly so.
Are we living by the faith thatwe received at salvation?
Are we living by the love wefirst experienced when we came
to Christ, or have we falleninto traditions and
self-discipline?
Are we living a life guided bythe love of God or the love that
we learn from the world?
The world would have told Davidand Joan maybe you just need to
(19:25):
go your own way.
Worldly love will never teachyou to love your enemies.
Worldly love cannot teach youhow to love others as Christ
loved you.
As we heard earlier from thatquote Melissa found from a
pastor figure with mainstreamviews, churchianity is teaching
people that if you love Christ,you will keep his commandments.
They make his commandments aset of rules based on his
(19:48):
teachings that he made in thecontext of law.
Christ was in fact, a teacherof law.
He was the greatest teacher oflaw to ever walk the earth.
But we're not under law, we'reunder grace.
We're under his grace.
If we look for rules in theBible, we'll find them.
If we seek grace, the scripturewill set us free.
(20:10):
I've always said keeping thecommands of Christ is to cherish
and make precious the commandsof Christ.
This is not done throughkeeping the rules.
This is done freely by faith.
What would happen if we tookaway the rules of law and order
in our country?
Would people continue to followthem?
The will of Yahweh is for us toserve freely from the heart.
(20:31):
He took away the rules and puta counselor in their place.
A counselor does not punish.
A counselor is there to guideyou.
Christ Yeshua is your personalcounselor, and what would that
counselor be guiding us toward?
What did he teach his disciples?
Let's start with what John saidabout Christ Yeshua a short
(20:52):
time before he would handhimself over to be crucified.
In John 13,1 we read he lovedhis own who were in the world
(21:13):
and loved them to the end, thoseof little faith, as he called
them.
He cherished them as his own.
Nothing they could do wouldchange that.
Melissa (21:22):
In John 13, 34, we read A new commandment I give to you
that you will love one another.
Just as I have loved you, youalso are to love one another.
Lenny (21:34):
And he says this again later in chapter 15, verse 12.
Melissa (21:48):
And then again he says it in John 15, 14-17.
No longer do I call youservants, for the servant does
not know what his master isdoing, but I have called you
friends, for all that I haveheard from my Father, I have
made known to you you did notchoose me, but I chose you and
appointed you that you should goand bear fruit and that your
(22:10):
fruit should abide, so thatwhatever you ask the Father in
my name, he may give it to you.
These things I command you sothat you will love one another.
Lenny (22:21):
So how do we know if we are a friend of Christ?
How do we know if we love him?
What did he tell his disciples?
This is where people stopreading and start making their
rules.
This is where we are told bymany we don't love Christ if we
don't follow his rules.
We're not his friend if wedon't follow his rules.
(22:42):
Those, under this teaching,find themselves in and out of
love, in and out of fellowship,in and out of friendship.
What did John say about thelove Christ Yeshua had for his
disciples?
Melissa (22:55):
He loved them to the end.
Lenny (22:58):
I don't hear of anything that sounds like in and out of
love in this statement, do you?
Melissa (23:03):
No.
Lenny (23:04):
What we see here is a perfect love that was never
broken.
Melissa (23:08):
Amen.
Yeshua goes on to say but Ihave called you friends.
For all that I have heard frommy Father I have made known to
you.
Lenny (23:18):
Why did he call?
Melissa (23:18):
them friends.
Lenny (23:24):
So what was the command then?
It was believe.
It was believe in his love.
Have faith in his love, notyour own.
And he continues.
Melissa (23:35):
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed
you that you should go and bearfruit and that your fruit should
abide.
Lenny (23:45):
And then combine that with.
Melissa (23:47):
John 10, 28.
I give them eternal life andthey will never perish, and no
one will snatch them out of myhand.
Lenny (23:57):
Christians, you are not in and out of fellowship with
Yahweh.
In reality, if we want to feelclose to God, we need to desire
his fruit, not the fruit of theworld.
We need the counselor to teachus how to live by our new divine
nature.
Although we have a divinenature, living by it does not
seem to come naturally, but itdoes come spiritually.
(24:18):
We can trust Christ Yeshua.
We can trust that when wedesire to please him, we will
bear much fruit If we cherishhim.
We will not be led astray.
If we keep his commands, if wehold tightly to his commands, if
we cherish them and cling tothem tightly, we will be blessed
.
If someone gave you a great gift, would you toss it aside or put
(24:40):
it somewhere it could get lost,or would you cover it up?
Of course not, and we shouldkeep the commands of Christ safe
and secure and where we can bereminded of them regularly.
Let's not cover this up.
Let it shine in your life.
Don't close your eyes to it andact like those who walk in
darkness.
When we close our eyes, it getsdark, doesn't it?
(25:01):
We can be guided by Paul'sspiritual guidance.
Melissa (25:05):
Romans 12.2.
Do not be conformed to thisworld, but be transformed by the
renewal of your mind that bytesting you may discern what is
the rules and regulations.
Paul wrote In Romans 3.27,believers, we love Christ.
(25:30):
By what kind of law?
By a law of works, no, but bythe law of faith.
Lenny (25:38):
Believers, we love Christ .
We don't need rules from ourchurch to govern us.
Let's be guided by thecounselor.
We love Christ Yeshua, so let'sact like it.
We can sum up all the newcovenant teaching on sin in this
way.
This is what I believe Paulmade so much effort in teaching
his churches, and we will seethis beautiful message unfold
(25:59):
more and more as we go throughhis letter to the Romans.
We don't need better rulekeeping.
We need a genuine desire, adesire that does not come from
fear of punishment or some kindof special reward.
We have received our reward.
We just have to realize howgreat it is.
If we go back to the love wefelt from Yahweh when we first
(26:20):
believed and build on that, wecan live an abundant life in
Christ, a life that is alreadyours, but most have lost sight
of it.
And then there are those whocall themselves Christians, who
preach worldly love.
Those who teach worldly lovewill be embraced by the world.
Whatever those teachers aredoesn't mean anything to me.
They don't preach Christcrucified.
(26:40):
In 1 Corinthians 1.23, paulsaid but we preach Christ
crucified a stumbling block tothe Jews and folly to Gentiles.
Yeshua reminded his disciples ofwhat would happen to them and
can happen to us as well, whenwe share the love of Christ,
when we share the cross ofChrist and the resurrection life
(27:02):
of Christ, when we proclaimwhat Christ proclaimed in John
14 6.
Melissa (27:07):
Jesus said to him I am the way and the truth and the
life.
No one comes to the Fatherexcept through me.
Lenny (27:17):
If those prosperity preachers taught this before
their message every day, theywouldn't like the results, would
they?
Melissa (27:23):
Certainly not.
Lenny (27:25):
Yeshua told his disciples in John 15, 18,.
Melissa (27:29):
If the world hates you, know that it hated me before.
It hated you.
If you were of the world, theworld would love you as its own.
But because you are not of theworld but I chose you out of the
world, therefore the worldhates you.
Remember the word that I saidto you a servant is not greater
than his master.
(27:49):
If they persecuted me, theywill also persecute you.
If they kept my word, they willalso keep yours.
But all these things they willdo to you on account of my name,
because they do not know himwho sent me.
Lenny (28:07):
When we're overcome by troubles, we have to remember
that Christ did promise thatthese things would happen.
This only proves all the morethat we can trust him.
Many see this as a reason toquestion Yahweh.
We should be cautious whentaking this view, as tempting as
it might be.
Satan's view was that Yahwehwas not just.
Yahweh was not fair.
(28:27):
Yahweh was not loving.
He took pride in a differenttype of love, a worldly type of
love.
Melissa (28:35):
A bit later, yeshua adds in John 16.33, I have said
these things to you that in meyou may have peace In the world.
You will have tribulation, buttake heart, I have overcome the
world.
Lenny (28:51):
Yeshua promises that he has overcome the world.
We just have to trust him onthat.
He is the author of life.
Why would we want to follow theviews of Satan, who is no more?
Satan could not give life toothers and he couldn't raise
himself from the dead.
Yahweh is God Most High, andwhen you believe, you share in
his resurrection life.
(29:12):
Life is too short to live likethe dead.
Let's make the most of everymoment.
Amen.
I hope you have a great day outthere.
Melissa (29:21):
Until next time.
announcement (29:24):
Thank you for listening to the Waking Up to
Grace podcast brought to you bythe finished work of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
If you enjoyed today's episode,we would love to hear from you.
You can send encouragement ourway right from our episodes and
transcripts page or reach Lennyprivately from the contact form
at wakinguptogracecom.
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