April 19, 2025 • 28 mins
The modern "church" no longer resembles the participatory gatherings of the first century, having replaced communal sharing with passive entertainment and one-way communication.
• Ancient synagogues were community centers where anyone could share insights after scripture readings
• First-century worship didn't center around sermons but allowed everyone to contribute
• The only detailed view of early church gatherings (1 Corinthians 11-14) shows shared participation, not one person doing all the speaking
• Modern church structure creates dormant members instead of an active body where every part functions
• Denominations and divisions flourish because we've abandoned communal discernment in favor of established doctrinal positions
• Paul warned against being "taken captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men"
• Church leaders today function more as celebrities than facilitators of community learning
• Resurrection Sunday reminds us that Christ's finished work eliminated the need for human intermediaries
This weekend, as more people attend church buildings than any other time of year, consider what true biblical community could look like if we returned to a model where every member contributed.
(This episode's content was extracted from throughout episode #034)
Share what's on your heart and enjoy free study resources on our Episodes Page at wakinguptograce.com: https://wakinguptograce.com/050-thinking-outside-of-the-box-church/
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Episode Transcript
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announcement (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Waking Up to Grace
podcast, where we celebrate andexplore the finished work of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
Tune in to the Waking Up toGrace podcast on every major
platform.
You can also listen to ourepisodes and read our full
transcripts atwakinguptogracecom.
And now here's Lenny.
Welcome to the podcast everyone.
Lenny (00:22):
And now here's Lenny.
Welcome to the podcast everyone.
I'm excited to announce that weare celebrating our 50th
podcast episode on the weekendof Resurrection, sunday.
The resurrection of our LordChrist Yeshua is something to
cherish and live thankful forevery single day of our
Christian lives.
The apostles taught us tomeditate regularly on the
(00:47):
finality of the cross of Christand the reality of his
resurrection.
The depth of this truth when westudy it is simply incredible.
You can't keep the finishedwork of Christ in a box.
Yahweh went way outside of thebox when he made his plan for
the salvation of mankind.
And speaking of outside of boxthis weekend, when more
Christians will attend a churchbuilding than on your average
(01:09):
weekend, I want to challenge youto think outside of the box for
a moment.
Today's episode is going to bethinking outside of the box
church.
In Paul's letter to theCorinthians, we see the best
example we have of what a churchgathering looked like for the
first century Christians.
But before we talk about that,I want you to see what gathering
(01:29):
looked like leading up to theearly church.
It is here that we will findjust how far we have drifted
from what was once considered tobe the way of gathering for
worship.
Let's begin with ancientsynagogues and sermons.
So I want to touch onsynagogues a little bit.
I'm going to be talking aboutsermons and synagogues, but
we'll start with synagogues.
(01:50):
We read in the New TestamentGospels that Yeshua taught in
synagogues.
One of them was Capernaum, andthen Paul, according to the book
of Acts, in chapter 17, he issaid to have taught in
synagogues.
They went around and they spokein synagogues.
They went around and they spokein synagogues.
How did they get allowed tospeak?
You're thinking?
You know, this is kind of weird.
(02:10):
They just what?
They just take the microphone.
Hey, this is me.
Get out of here to the whoeveris normally speaking on the
podium.
Well, it wasn't like that.
Synagogue in Greek is a wordthat literally means a gathering
of people, but it also refersto the place of assembly.
First century AD.
Synagogues were found in bothPalestine and Diaspora, where
(02:32):
they were used for a variety ofcommunal needs.
They would use them at schools,communal meals, hotels, courts
a place to collect anddistribute charity, political
meetings.
Courts a place to collect anddistribute charity, political
meetings.
All these usages can be sourcedfrom a combination of scripture
and writings from the jewishhistorian who was a pharisee,
(02:53):
josephus.
He's a first century phariseewho ended up being a historian
who also wrote about the eventsof 70 ad in the destruction of
jerusalem there's a lot ofwritings that we have and
they're very interesting.
Needless to say, we haverecorded history of these things
.
There's a lot of writings thatwe have and they're very
interesting.
Needless to say, we haverecorded history of these things
.
It's also said that worshiptook place in first century
synagogues, but it wasn'tworship like you saw in the
(03:14):
temple.
It wouldn't develop into whatyou see today in a Jewish
synagogue until much later, andthat would much later being
after the destruction of thetemple.
What we do see in thesynagogues in the first century
is that reading and interpretingthe Torah and the prophets was
happening, and we read aboutthis in Acts 15.
(03:35):
James is at the Jerusalemcouncil speaking At the end.
You know they were kind ofsumming up their decision and he
was talking about how great thelaw was at the end there.
And he closes by saying ForMoses from ancient generations
has in every city those whopreach him, since he has read in
the synagogues every Sabbath.
Right there in Acts we see thatMoses, which would have been
(03:57):
the law, was read in thesynagogues every Sabbath.
So once a week, yeah, so everyweek they'd be doing that.
Scholars disagree about theextent of the communal prayers.
It's said that prayers tookplace.
You know there's references tothat.
It's argued about how much andhow often that took place, but
we do see in Matthew chapter six.
(04:18):
That's when Christ Yeshua istalking about the Pharisees and
the synagogues puffingthemselves up and praying out
loud so that everybody can hearthem.
Was it really used for that orwere they just being Pharisees
and showing off?
I don't know if that was reallylike a custom, so much as it
was like hey, look at me in mycool outfit praying really loud.
Melissa (04:41):
They definitely had a reputation.
Lenny (04:43):
Yeah, it's not surprising that there's not a lot of
evidence about any kind ofcentralized group determining
what took place inside of thesesynagogues, because of the fact
that they were really nothingmore than local communal
institutions.
Most of the sources from thefirst century identify elders,
priests and then these certainofficials as the leaders of the
(05:05):
synagogues.
You would have had the leaderleading things but interestingly
there wasn't a hierarchystructure when it came to
speaking, and we'll talk aboutthat as we go.
But there are a few remains ofsome of the first century
synagogues in Israel andPalestine but unlike the
synagogues from the latercenturies, these ones didn't
have any Jewish features ordecor or any kind of furnishings
(05:27):
.
They were really just simplebuildings with benches along the
walls.
So that would have very muchreflected them being community
centers.
So next I'm going to hit onsermons a little bit.
I'm going to talk a little bitabout sermons, which ties into
the synagogues.
In Old Testament, temple worship, preaching was not a common
(05:49):
part of the experience.
So if you were expecting tohear a sermon, that didn't
happen regularly in the temple,that's not what it was, for the
temple would have been aboutsacrifices, rituals, prayers,
singing and then reading fromthe scriptures Reading no sermon
, wow, no sermon.
No tradition appears in the OldTestament as far as a sermon
(06:11):
being held in the temple ofworship, which is interesting,
most people think.
I know I used to think like, oh, that had to have been sermon
after sermon.
They're just teaching from apodium constantly, but it's not
what you see.
There's only actually onenoteworthy time when you even
see a podium constantly, butit's not what you see.
There's only actually onenoteworthy time when you even
see a podium being mentioned InEzra, chapter 8, verse 8, we
read about Ezra standing on ahigh platform that was built for
(06:34):
the occasion and he praised Godand read the book of Moses, and
then he had scribes with him,several scribes that were
explaining the meaning of Mosesto the people, and so this would
have been kind of theintroduction to the second
temple, the grand opening.
The first temple was destroyed.
They went in and they rebuiltit all, and it was this long
process getting ridiculed bypeople and everything else, and
(06:57):
they finished this temple.
That's right and the peopleasked Ezra to go up and read
from the law, bringing the lawback into their reality again.
Melissa (07:08):
It's their new temple.
Lenny (07:09):
And so they're finally focusing on God again, after God
literally had to wake them up.
They were so awful and theywere turning other gods,
rejecting God.
He's like, okay, you reject meand I'm just going to wipe
things out and you won't have me.
And then they startedappreciating again.
But this order of worship was,that wasn't the common thing.
(07:29):
That's not what always happened.
That was like a one-time thing.
Ezra, get up there and read,and we'll have people interpret
on a podium reading.
For that matter, that wasn'tthe structure.
Melissa (07:40):
Right, almost like a ribbon cutting for the temple.
Lenny (07:43):
Yeah, so it was a big event.
That's where we see a podium inscripture.
To recreate that in Christianchurch is a bit of a stretch.
It's kind of interesting.
Melissa (07:53):
Wow, and they're everywhere, they're in every.
I don't think I've been to achurch or seen one on TV, or
yeah.
I can't even picture onewithout a podium.
Lenny (08:03):
When we're reading scripture, when we're studying
scripture, like we're about todo, we're going to dive into
Romans, when we're going throughour notes, when we're learning,
I would say this is worship.
Melissa (08:13):
I like that.
Lenny (08:14):
We're learning about God's word, his truth, the
written word, about the livingword who is Christ.
This is worship.
So do you have to go to achurch to worship is the
question.
Melissa (08:26):
Absolutely not.
We're taking the time to sitdown.
Get to know our Lord.
Lenny (08:32):
Who's doing the worshiping in your church?
Who's speaking?
Who's studying?
Who's sharing?
Week after week when you go tochurch, who's doing all the
talking?
Who's doing all the sharing?
Somebody in the audience, or isit one person?
Melissa (08:46):
It's no one but the man behind the altar.
Lenny (08:49):
Who's sharing what they've learned, who's sharing
their insights and who's beinglistened to.
If you were going to go to yourchurch this week and you heard
your pastor speaking, if theysaid something that you didn't
agree with and you interjected,I don't agree with that.
What?
Melissa (09:07):
do you think would happen?
You'd be shown the door veryquickly, because it's not set up
for that.
Lenny (09:12):
You'd be a troublemaker.
That's not something you dohere.
You don't interject with thepastor.
You don't do that Just like ata study group.
If you're going to raise aruckus by trying to share
something that's not in linewith what they teach at that
institution, you're going to beasked to be quiet or leave.
If you don't believe me, try itsometime, but only if you're
(09:36):
willing to take that sacrifice.
What was going on in thesynagogues, you would think,
would resemble what we see inchurch today.
You would think, well, wheredid they get this from?
Probably the synagogues.
But this is what was happeningin the synagogues.
They started by repeating theShema of Deuteronomy, and so
that was Deuteronomy, chapter 6,verses 4 and 5.
And they would have expressionsof praise to God and then they
(09:57):
would read from the OldTestament.
Evidently they organized thereading systematically in order
to read through the whole Torahregularly.
So they'd be wanting to gothrough those first five books
of the Bible regularly.
But then what we could call thesermon followed.
I don't know if that's reallypolitically correct, but we're
just going to call it a sermon,and the sermon would have been a
(10:18):
simple explanation of themeaning and the application of
the text that was read and itwould have depended on the
ability and the training of theone speaking.
In other words, whatever theywere able to share and the way
they were able to share it.
That's how it was done.
Guests could come, people couldspeak.
Melissa (10:38):
Wow.
Lenny (10:39):
Anybody could take the floor.
Anybody could take the podium,so to speak.
If there was one Sounds morelike it was if you stood up,
people were sitting down.
If you stood up, you talked,anybody could come and share
their insight, and that's in asynagogue, that's in a Jewish
synagogue.
What do we see in our churchestoday?
It's like what is this?
(11:01):
What would the apostles say ifthey came into one of our
churches?
Interestingly, on top of that,the reading of the scriptures,
the preaching and the prayerofficials weren't appointed to
this.
So if there was officials, ifthere was leaders, they were
just kind of overseeing things,just like you see in the early
(11:21):
churches.
It's a parallel there.
You had leaders and overseers,elders.
They had Jewish elders, justlike they had Christian elders.
The structure seems prettysimilar when you actually
analyze it.
The early churches were likehuh, you know, we can kind of go
by this basic structure becauseit's fair People share, we all
(11:42):
partake, right.
Melissa (11:43):
Everybody's learning.
Lenny (11:45):
Yeah, so you just had people overseeing.
What would those people do?
Well, I'd have to say that ifyou were a leader in those days,
it might have been a littlemore challenging, because if you
were going to try to say as aleader, like, no, this is how it
is, you're going to have toprove your case to the people.
Melissa (12:03):
Yes, people have questions.
Lenny (12:06):
So if you took your pastor down from that podium and
put other people up therespeaking and they didn't agree
with him, and then he had tospeak, he'd have to prove his
case, wouldn't he Right?
No more Hollywood going on.
You know, he prepared hissermon.
He wasn't ready for this.
Now he's got to prove his casein scripture.
(12:26):
Now he's got to prove hispoints.
Now that's a more difficultposition, and so you can see why
a leader wouldn't want this.
A leader wants it easy, and I'mnot saying a good leader.
Those acts of worship that yousaw in the synagogues would have
been freely performed, takingturns.
For those in the assembly, justordinary people.
(12:47):
The sermon would have closedwith a blessing.
If somebody from the Leviticalclass, like a priest, was
present, they would perform thatclosing blessing.
Otherwise there would just be acommon prayer.
Melissa (12:57):
That sounds a lot more like church and less like the
world.
I like the sound of that.
Lenny (13:02):
Doesn't that sound nice?
I mean I'm thinking like youcan just go there and share.
If you learn something, you'dhave an opportunity to share
that.
If you learned something, you'dhave an opportunity to share
that If you had questions youcould get them answered, and I'm
not even an extrovert at alland I craved seeing something
like this in a church.
(13:22):
I might actually want to go toa church again if I saw these
things Be like whoa, I canactually share what I'm learning
.
Whoa.
Melissa (13:32):
What we have today is not church.
It's some kind of.
It's just some kind ofentertainment.
Honestly, it sounds more like acult.
Everybody just listens and nodstheir head and you don't get to
ask questions and deeply learn.
Lenny (13:47):
That's the definition of a cult.
What you just said One persondoing all the talking, everybody
else doing all the listeningand you just agree, or else
Everything's fine.
If you agree, Come back weeklyfor your programming.
Melissa (14:00):
I have a problem with that.
I hope other people have aproblem with that too.
The fact that the churchestoday don't look like the
fruitful churches we saw inearly history that bothers me.
Lenny (14:15):
And there was problems in all the churches, and there
always has been.
But the problem shouldn't beparticipation, Because without
participation there is no body.
Paul writes in Corinthians thatevery member of the body is
important.
Melissa (14:27):
So why are we going every week?
Lenny (14:29):
We go there because we want to be told what to believe,
what to think, what to do,Because it's difficult to be
free, it's difficult to havefreedom in Christ.
It's harder to be free andshift your paradigm to full
freedom than it is to just gosomewhere and follow the herd.
You just go there and what do Ido?
(14:51):
What's next?
Do I get plugged into a group?
What do I need to do next?
What do I need to believe?
How do I need to clean up mylife?
And what do you find the focusat most churches, what I found
was that the focus is on you.
You're focusing on cleaning upyourself, cleaning up your act,
being a better, this being abetter, that the whole thing is
like a self-development program.
(15:14):
The closest thing that we see toa Christian church in Scripture
is found in 1 Corinthians 11-14.
You look at that letter theCorinthians 11-14, you see this.
That's the only view of whatyou could say church.
A gathering, a structuredgathering, would look like, and
(15:34):
you had spiritual gifts.
So you got to take that out.
We don't.
Those things don't comenaturally.
We're not babbling and peopleinterpreting and none of this
kind of stuff.
We're not performing miracles.
So you take that out, butthat's okay.
But you still have sharing andencouragement.
You didn't have one personspeaking.
You don't see that.
You don't see a sermon.
You don't see the overseerdoing all the talking and put
(15:57):
himself on a podium.
You don't see it.
It's not present.
Where did they get it?
Not from these guys, it didn'tcome from the apostles, the
gathering of the Corinthians.
If you compare and contrast itto the synagogues what we were
just talking about it's actuallypretty similar.
There's a lot of similaritiesthere.
That's the way they did stuff.
Then you could openly share.
Melissa (16:18):
I just think that would make all the difference if we
did that today.
All the difference for people,for their growth, confidence.
Lenny (16:26):
People sharing A lot of the grace.
Teachers say using theirspiritual gifts and contributing
to the body, the supernaturalgifts.
No, but we do have the gift ofthe Spirit and we're all part of
the body.
It's still the same thing.
It's still the same.
It's just not charismatic gifts.
It's not those types of gifts.
Our gift is love through theSpirit and we all should be able
(16:47):
to share our love for Christand to share what we're learning
for Christ.
And if we're not doing that, ifwe're not allowed to do that,
where are we going?
What are we doing?
I don't see a point.
You have all these uselessmembers.
There's only like one part inthe body of Christ.
It's supposed to be a wholebody.
Melissa (17:01):
I don't see a point.
I just see people going to beentertained and paying the
salary of the pastor.
Lenny (17:06):
That's a talking head.
Melissa (17:08):
Yeah.
Lenny (17:09):
So we see that today's leaders are more like
celebrities.
Why is that the established way?
Because we're not looking forleaders.
We stopped looking.
We just want somebody to do allthe work for us, but we're
making ourselves dormant bydoing so.
There's all these differentdenominations.
Right, if you took twodifferent churches, two
(17:30):
different denominations thatdidn't agree on something, you
bring these two churchestogether, these two
congregations that are meeting,and you sit them down and say
you guys all have to workthrough your differences.
You need to prove your case,church A and Church B.
You need to prove your case andyour pastor is going to be
overseeing these pastors aregoing to be overseeing the
(17:51):
process.
Make sure it doesn't get ugly,stays peaceful, but you guys are
going to work out yourdifferences together.
We want to hear people sharing,we want to share your input.
We're going to try to come to aconclusion as a body as to
what's true Leader.
He can even prove his case ifhe wants to, but everybody
standing here is going to haveto discern for themselves what
they think is true.
(18:12):
What do you think would happen?
Melissa (18:14):
I think that would be amazing.
I would think that that wouldmake these denominations
dissolve and we'd be down to theone truth of scripture.
Lenny (18:25):
It could only help if people actually said you know
what?
Yeah, let's do this.
And they're digging in andthey're going to try to come to
a conclusion Truly, Not biased,you know, let's pray beforehand.
Even that we'd look at thiswithout bias.
I mean, imagine the world if wewere actually trying to come
together.
That would be amazing If weactually cared about truth
(18:47):
rather than just saying well,you know, truth is whatever we
take from it.
Melissa (18:51):
All the denominations are a stumbling block to
unbelievers.
To see that, because you don'tpick and choose what you want to
believe about Christ, there'sthe one truth in Scripture and
that's what Christians ought towant to learn and teach.
So it's, quite frankly, garbagehaving all these denominations,
(19:13):
and that's what we ought to dois come together and teach the
truth.
Lenny (19:17):
The denominations prove that there's a problem in the
church today, agreed, they'reall trying to say no, we did the
research, we established ourdoctrines, these are our
doctrines and this is what weteach, because it's sound and
we've reviewed it and looked atit.
But yet you go to every streetcorner and there's a different
view on something.
Melissa (19:37):
You're right.
That reveals there's a problemin the church.
We should see that as a problemthat needs to be corrected.
Lenny (19:42):
There again, we have Catholic and Protestant.
Why do I have to be aProtestant if I'm not a Catholic
?
Where does that even come from?
Melissa (19:57):
Oh, I have to proclaim that I believe everything the
Reformers said.
What does that mean?
I don't agree with everythingthe Reformers did the
denominations and the labelsit's no good.
Lenny (20:02):
Why don't we just look for truth?
If every church out therelooked like the synagogues even
just the synagogues in theJewish days of the first century
, where you could share, wherepeople would hear you and you
could share your insight onevery street corner, you could
go there and at some point you'dget a turn sharing something
(20:24):
that you know about Scripture.
What would church look like?
Just think about that.
Melissa (20:30):
I think it'd be so fruitful, be beautiful.
I don't know if we'll ever seethat, but there's no reason not
to have hope and to be certainlyno reason not to promote it
when you look at the history,yeah, you think like, oh, that
could never one of those things,like that might never happen.
Lenny (20:45):
But if you were in the days of the reformers and you
said, yeah, having a bible,that'll never happen for the
common folks, you would havebeen wrong, that's very god said
no, you're all gonna havebibles he controls the history
we don't know when there's goingto be another reformation, but
you see that there's one thatcould happen.
Melissa (21:07):
That would only benefit the entire world there are a
lot of people starting to speakout about this that notice that
problem with the denominationsand the structure of the church
and starting to speak out.
I'm thankful for that.
Lenny (21:19):
It always starts with knowledge.
It starts with people waking up.
It's just like with governmentthey're going to get away with
anything they want until peoplesay that's enough.
We don't need better government.
We need people to stand forwhat's right.
Say that's enough.
We don't need better government.
We need people to stand forwhat's right.
That's true.
So there's a passage inColossians, if you want to read
it, verse 2-8.
And I took all these from theNASB.
(21:41):
I wanted to read what Paul saidabout tradition.
We've been talking abouttradition.
What did he say?
Melissa (21:47):
Paul said see to it that no one takes you captive
through philosophy and emptydeception, according to the
tradition of men, according tothe elementary principles of the
world, rather than according toChrist.
Lenny (22:03):
That sounds kind of like church today, if you ask me.
Melissa (22:05):
Wow.
Lenny (22:07):
Think of all the traditions that Gentiles had,
that Romans and the Greeks.
Think of all the traditionsthat the Jews had, romans and
the Greeks.
Think of all the traditionsthat the Jews had.
All these traditions,traditions.
The Jews had, so manytraditions.
We have so many traditions whenwe're born into this world.
All these traditions.
Church is the way it is.
That's just the way it is.
(22:27):
But what did the Apostle Paulsay to the early church to that
effect?
In 2 Thessalonians 2.15, hesaid so then, brethren, stand
firm and hold to the traditionswhich you were taught, whether
by word of mouth or by letterfrom us.
Melissa (22:45):
The traditions according to Christ.
Lenny (22:47):
Exactly, and what were those according to?
They would have been accordingto the gospel, based on the
gospel, not traditions of man.
Melissa (22:58):
Amen.
Lenny (22:59):
You look at like today's house churches.
Some people say house churchesare the way to go, but if you
just turn it into a mini big boxchurch, how is that any more
biblical?
You're still following the sameformat One person talking,
everybody else listening andmaybe we'll call on you if you
have a question one persontalking, everybody else
listening and maybe we'll callon you if you have a question.
Melissa (23:20):
The common theme I'm hearing you saying is that the
whole body should beparticipating, because the whole
body is important Exactly.
Lenny (23:25):
Another thing I quickly wanted to mention is this view
of 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy andTitus being pastoral letters.
People refer to those as thepastoral letters.
Pastoral letters, people referto those as the pastoral letters
.
But have you ever looked atwhat scripture really says about
pastor, deacon, elder leader?
What are their roles?
Study them.
What are their roles, what arethe qualifications?
(23:46):
Do some studying on it?
But then, when you look at theCorinthian church and how the
church looked in those days,what do you see them doing?
As I mentioned in our lastepisode, pastor was a spiritual
gift.
There's no list ofqualifications.
It's not any kind of specialtitle.
(24:06):
It was some kind of spiritualgift that we really know nothing
about.
But either way, what did theydo?
What were they doing in thechurch Overseeing leading?
They were they doing in thechurch Overseeing leading.
They were not doing all thetalking.
Melissa (24:20):
How about that?
Lenny (24:21):
I just think it's important to realize those
things We've got to realize.
These are traditions and theseare not traditions that were
handed down to us by theapostles.
Melissa (24:31):
I think we should know why we're following a tradition.
If we are, why are we following?
Yeah?
So church has becomeTraditional Traditional With its
own set of expectations, andentertainment is usually
involved with tradition.
Lenny (24:49):
Yeah, a lot of the Greek stuff Theaters, rhetoric.
Melissa (24:54):
Yeah the music.
Not that there's anything wrongwith having some fun.
Theaters, rhetoric yeah themusic.
Not that there's anything wrongwith having some fun.
Lenny (25:00):
A lot of grace teachers and people in the grace
community, for example and bygrace I mean like they
understand forgiveness, theyunderstand the fullness of
forgiveness, which a lot oftimes I refer to as full grace.
They understand the fullness ofour forgiveness.
In that community it's kind ofdivided.
(25:22):
Some people and some differentteachers.
They see like, oh, the biggestproblem is what's being taught
in the churches.
It's not the church itself,it's what's being taught.
But then you're sustaining thatbroken church of the speaker up
front and what you see takingplace even in those grace
communities is dangerous,because they're all looking to
teacher, pastor, leader for allof their learnings, all of their
(25:44):
insights.
Melissa (25:45):
Instead of to Christ.
Lenny (25:47):
Right.
Melissa (25:47):
And then what does it do to that brother in Christ?
That's the leader.
It elevates him to a statusthat's not healthy.
Lenny (25:54):
And suddenly they have all the answers.
They're the place to go to forevery answer.
Status.
That's not healthy.
Suddenly they have all theanswers.
They're the place to go to forevery answer, and that is not
healthy.
Melissa (26:00):
Suddenly they're struggling to be humble.
Lenny (26:02):
Nobody has the market cornered on truth.
When we listen to some of ourfavorite teachers, we don't
agree with them on everything.
I don't think it's that we'rehard to agree with.
It's because we are not peoplethat just look at the surface.
But I also know that I'll bewrong about some things.
You have to have the rightfoundation.
If you don't have a foundationof understanding the fullness of
(26:24):
your forgiveness, what's yourteaching going to look like?
Melissa (26:27):
You're going to cause people to stumble, including
yourself.
Lenny (26:30):
Yeah, and those things need to be challenged.
What if people were evaluatingtheir pastor's teaching every
week Throughout the week?
They'd gather together and justgo through it with a fine-tooth
comb and challenge it.
That's what we should be doing,Like, okay, you put out that
message, we're going to talkabout that and we're going to
make sure you got it all right.
Are people doing that?
No, they're not doing that.
(26:51):
If they did, they would onlycome to a deeper knowledge of
Christ and realize there's a lotof error and that their pastor
needs some help.
Melissa (27:01):
That's what we should be doing Doing our own research
throughout the week, our ownreading, and then come together
and go through it with afine-tooth comb.
Lenny (27:10):
It would be challenging to be a church leader.
I'm not going to lie.
I mean, we have a Christianpodcast.
If we had a large group ofpeople you know that we're
meeting together you would haveyour hands full, but you would
also be relieved because otherpeople are sharing, right.
So it's like, okay, a littleharder on one hand, but you're
(27:30):
just not on a platform anymore.
You're not the most specialthing going on.
Melissa (27:34):
That's right.
Lenny (27:35):
You're not Mr Hollywood anymore, you're not the most
special thing going on, that'sright.
You're not Mr.
Melissa (27:40):
Hollywood anymore.
You know, that's it.
You just got to stand down.
I think anytime we look likethe world we got to really think
about that.
announcement (27:44):
Thank you for listening to the Waking Up to
Grace podcast, brought to you bythe finished work of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
If you enjoyed today's episode,we would love to hear from you.
You can send encouragement ourway right from our episodes and
transcripts page or reach Lennyprivately from the contact form
at wakinguptogracecom.
Hello and welcome to the Waking Up to Grace
podcast, where we celebrate andexplore the finished work of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
Tune in to the Waking Up toGrace podcast on every major
platform.
You can also listen to ourepisodes and read our full
transcripts atwakinguptogracecom.
And now here's Lenny.
Welcome to the podcast everyone.
Lenny (00:22):
And now here's Lenny.
Welcome to the podcast everyone.
I'm excited to announce that weare celebrating our 50th
podcast episode on the weekendof Resurrection, sunday.
The resurrection of our LordChrist Yeshua is something to
cherish and live thankful forevery single day of our
Christian lives.
The apostles taught us tomeditate regularly on the
(00:47):
finality of the cross of Christand the reality of his
resurrection.
The depth of this truth when westudy it is simply incredible.
You can't keep the finishedwork of Christ in a box.
Yahweh went way outside of thebox when he made his plan for
the salvation of mankind.
And speaking of outside of boxthis weekend, when more
Christians will attend a churchbuilding than on your average
(01:09):
weekend, I want to challenge youto think outside of the box for
a moment.
Today's episode is going to bethinking outside of the box
church.
In Paul's letter to theCorinthians, we see the best
example we have of what a churchgathering looked like for the
first century Christians.
But before we talk about that,I want you to see what gathering
(01:29):
looked like leading up to theearly church.
It is here that we will findjust how far we have drifted
from what was once considered tobe the way of gathering for
worship.
Let's begin with ancientsynagogues and sermons.
So I want to touch onsynagogues a little bit.
I'm going to be talking aboutsermons and synagogues, but
we'll start with synagogues.
(01:50):
We read in the New TestamentGospels that Yeshua taught in
synagogues.
One of them was Capernaum, andthen Paul, according to the book
of Acts, in chapter 17, he issaid to have taught in
synagogues.
They went around and they spokein synagogues.
They went around and they spokein synagogues.
How did they get allowed tospeak?
You're thinking?
You know, this is kind of weird.
(02:10):
They just what?
They just take the microphone.
Hey, this is me.
Get out of here to the whoeveris normally speaking on the
podium.
Well, it wasn't like that.
Synagogue in Greek is a wordthat literally means a gathering
of people, but it also refersto the place of assembly.
First century AD.
Synagogues were found in bothPalestine and Diaspora, where
(02:32):
they were used for a variety ofcommunal needs.
They would use them at schools,communal meals, hotels, courts
a place to collect anddistribute charity, political
meetings.
Courts a place to collect anddistribute charity, political
meetings.
All these usages can be sourcedfrom a combination of scripture
and writings from the jewishhistorian who was a pharisee,
(02:53):
josephus.
He's a first century phariseewho ended up being a historian
who also wrote about the eventsof 70 ad in the destruction of
jerusalem there's a lot ofwritings that we have and
they're very interesting.
Needless to say, we haverecorded history of these things
.
There's a lot of writings thatwe have and they're very
interesting.
Needless to say, we haverecorded history of these things
.
It's also said that worshiptook place in first century
synagogues, but it wasn'tworship like you saw in the
(03:14):
temple.
It wouldn't develop into whatyou see today in a Jewish
synagogue until much later, andthat would much later being
after the destruction of thetemple.
What we do see in thesynagogues in the first century
is that reading and interpretingthe Torah and the prophets was
happening, and we read aboutthis in Acts 15.
(03:35):
James is at the Jerusalemcouncil speaking At the end.
You know they were kind ofsumming up their decision and he
was talking about how great thelaw was at the end there.
And he closes by saying ForMoses from ancient generations
has in every city those whopreach him, since he has read in
the synagogues every Sabbath.
Right there in Acts we see thatMoses, which would have been
(03:57):
the law, was read in thesynagogues every Sabbath.
So once a week, yeah, so everyweek they'd be doing that.
Scholars disagree about theextent of the communal prayers.
It's said that prayers tookplace.
You know there's references tothat.
It's argued about how much andhow often that took place, but
we do see in Matthew chapter six.
(04:18):
That's when Christ Yeshua istalking about the Pharisees and
the synagogues puffingthemselves up and praying out
loud so that everybody can hearthem.
Was it really used for that orwere they just being Pharisees
and showing off?
I don't know if that was reallylike a custom, so much as it
was like hey, look at me in mycool outfit praying really loud.
Melissa (04:41):
They definitely had a reputation.
Lenny (04:43):
Yeah, it's not surprising that there's not a lot of
evidence about any kind ofcentralized group determining
what took place inside of thesesynagogues, because of the fact
that they were really nothingmore than local communal
institutions.
Most of the sources from thefirst century identify elders,
priests and then these certainofficials as the leaders of the
(05:05):
synagogues.
You would have had the leaderleading things but interestingly
there wasn't a hierarchystructure when it came to
speaking, and we'll talk aboutthat as we go.
But there are a few remains ofsome of the first century
synagogues in Israel andPalestine but unlike the
synagogues from the latercenturies, these ones didn't
have any Jewish features ordecor or any kind of furnishings
(05:27):
.
They were really just simplebuildings with benches along the
walls.
So that would have very muchreflected them being community
centers.
So next I'm going to hit onsermons a little bit.
I'm going to talk a little bitabout sermons, which ties into
the synagogues.
In Old Testament, temple worship, preaching was not a common
(05:49):
part of the experience.
So if you were expecting tohear a sermon, that didn't
happen regularly in the temple,that's not what it was, for the
temple would have been aboutsacrifices, rituals, prayers,
singing and then reading fromthe scriptures Reading no sermon
, wow, no sermon.
No tradition appears in the OldTestament as far as a sermon
(06:11):
being held in the temple ofworship, which is interesting,
most people think.
I know I used to think like, oh, that had to have been sermon
after sermon.
They're just teaching from apodium constantly, but it's not
what you see.
There's only actually onenoteworthy time when you even
see a podium constantly, butit's not what you see.
There's only actually onenoteworthy time when you even
see a podium being mentioned InEzra, chapter 8, verse 8, we
read about Ezra standing on ahigh platform that was built for
(06:34):
the occasion and he praised Godand read the book of Moses, and
then he had scribes with him,several scribes that were
explaining the meaning of Mosesto the people, and so this would
have been kind of theintroduction to the second
temple, the grand opening.
The first temple was destroyed.
They went in and they rebuiltit all, and it was this long
process getting ridiculed bypeople and everything else, and
(06:57):
they finished this temple.
That's right and the peopleasked Ezra to go up and read
from the law, bringing the lawback into their reality again.
Melissa (07:08):
It's their new temple.
Lenny (07:09):
And so they're finally focusing on God again, after God
literally had to wake them up.
They were so awful and theywere turning other gods,
rejecting God.
He's like, okay, you reject meand I'm just going to wipe
things out and you won't have me.
And then they startedappreciating again.
But this order of worship was,that wasn't the common thing.
(07:29):
That's not what always happened.
That was like a one-time thing.
Ezra, get up there and read,and we'll have people interpret
on a podium reading.
For that matter, that wasn'tthe structure.
Melissa (07:40):
Right, almost like a ribbon cutting for the temple.
Lenny (07:43):
Yeah, so it was a big event.
That's where we see a podium inscripture.
To recreate that in Christianchurch is a bit of a stretch.
It's kind of interesting.
Melissa (07:53):
Wow, and they're everywhere, they're in every.
I don't think I've been to achurch or seen one on TV, or
yeah.
I can't even picture onewithout a podium.
Lenny (08:03):
When we're reading scripture, when we're studying
scripture, like we're about todo, we're going to dive into
Romans, when we're going throughour notes, when we're learning,
I would say this is worship.
Melissa (08:13):
I like that.
Lenny (08:14):
We're learning about God's word, his truth, the
written word, about the livingword who is Christ.
This is worship.
So do you have to go to achurch to worship is the
question.
Melissa (08:26):
Absolutely not.
We're taking the time to sitdown.
Get to know our Lord.
Lenny (08:32):
Who's doing the worshiping in your church?
Who's speaking?
Who's studying?
Who's sharing?
Week after week when you go tochurch, who's doing all the
talking?
Who's doing all the sharing?
Somebody in the audience, or isit one person?
Melissa (08:46):
It's no one but the man behind the altar.
Lenny (08:49):
Who's sharing what they've learned, who's sharing
their insights and who's beinglistened to.
If you were going to go to yourchurch this week and you heard
your pastor speaking, if theysaid something that you didn't
agree with and you interjected,I don't agree with that.
What?
Melissa (09:07):
do you think would happen?
You'd be shown the door veryquickly, because it's not set up
for that.
Lenny (09:12):
You'd be a troublemaker.
That's not something you dohere.
You don't interject with thepastor.
You don't do that Just like ata study group.
If you're going to raise aruckus by trying to share
something that's not in linewith what they teach at that
institution, you're going to beasked to be quiet or leave.
If you don't believe me, try itsometime, but only if you're
(09:36):
willing to take that sacrifice.
What was going on in thesynagogues, you would think,
would resemble what we see inchurch today.
You would think, well, wheredid they get this from?
Probably the synagogues.
But this is what was happeningin the synagogues.
They started by repeating theShema of Deuteronomy, and so
that was Deuteronomy, chapter 6,verses 4 and 5.
And they would have expressionsof praise to God and then they
(09:57):
would read from the OldTestament.
Evidently they organized thereading systematically in order
to read through the whole Torahregularly.
So they'd be wanting to gothrough those first five books
of the Bible regularly.
But then what we could call thesermon followed.
I don't know if that's reallypolitically correct, but we're
just going to call it a sermon,and the sermon would have been a
(10:18):
simple explanation of themeaning and the application of
the text that was read and itwould have depended on the
ability and the training of theone speaking.
In other words, whatever theywere able to share and the way
they were able to share it.
That's how it was done.
Guests could come, people couldspeak.
Melissa (10:38):
Wow.
Lenny (10:39):
Anybody could take the floor.
Anybody could take the podium,so to speak.
If there was one Sounds morelike it was if you stood up,
people were sitting down.
If you stood up, you talked,anybody could come and share
their insight, and that's in asynagogue, that's in a Jewish
synagogue.
What do we see in our churchestoday?
It's like what is this?
(11:01):
What would the apostles say ifthey came into one of our
churches?
Interestingly, on top of that,the reading of the scriptures,
the preaching and the prayerofficials weren't appointed to
this.
So if there was officials, ifthere was leaders, they were
just kind of overseeing things,just like you see in the early
(11:21):
churches.
It's a parallel there.
You had leaders and overseers,elders.
They had Jewish elders, justlike they had Christian elders.
The structure seems prettysimilar when you actually
analyze it.
The early churches were likehuh, you know, we can kind of go
by this basic structure becauseit's fair People share, we all
(11:42):
partake, right.
Melissa (11:43):
Everybody's learning.
Lenny (11:45):
Yeah, so you just had people overseeing.
What would those people do?
Well, I'd have to say that ifyou were a leader in those days,
it might have been a littlemore challenging, because if you
were going to try to say as aleader, like, no, this is how it
is, you're going to have toprove your case to the people.
Melissa (12:03):
Yes, people have questions.
Lenny (12:06):
So if you took your pastor down from that podium and
put other people up therespeaking and they didn't agree
with him, and then he had tospeak, he'd have to prove his
case, wouldn't he Right?
No more Hollywood going on.
You know, he prepared hissermon.
He wasn't ready for this.
Now he's got to prove his casein scripture.
(12:26):
Now he's got to prove hispoints.
Now that's a more difficultposition, and so you can see why
a leader wouldn't want this.
A leader wants it easy, and I'mnot saying a good leader.
Those acts of worship that yousaw in the synagogues would have
been freely performed, takingturns.
For those in the assembly, justordinary people.
(12:47):
The sermon would have closedwith a blessing.
If somebody from the Leviticalclass, like a priest, was
present, they would perform thatclosing blessing.
Otherwise there would just be acommon prayer.
Melissa (12:57):
That sounds a lot more like church and less like the
world.
I like the sound of that.
Lenny (13:02):
Doesn't that sound nice?
I mean I'm thinking like youcan just go there and share.
If you learn something, you'dhave an opportunity to share
that.
If you learned something, you'dhave an opportunity to share
that If you had questions youcould get them answered, and I'm
not even an extrovert at alland I craved seeing something
like this in a church.
(13:22):
I might actually want to go toa church again if I saw these
things Be like whoa, I canactually share what I'm learning
.
Whoa.
Melissa (13:32):
What we have today is not church.
It's some kind of.
It's just some kind ofentertainment.
Honestly, it sounds more like acult.
Everybody just listens and nodstheir head and you don't get to
ask questions and deeply learn.
Lenny (13:47):
That's the definition of a cult.
What you just said One persondoing all the talking, everybody
else doing all the listeningand you just agree, or else
Everything's fine.
If you agree, Come back weeklyfor your programming.
Melissa (14:00):
I have a problem with that.
I hope other people have aproblem with that too.
The fact that the churchestoday don't look like the
fruitful churches we saw inearly history that bothers me.
Lenny (14:15):
And there was problems in all the churches, and there
always has been.
But the problem shouldn't beparticipation, Because without
participation there is no body.
Paul writes in Corinthians thatevery member of the body is
important.
Melissa (14:27):
So why are we going every week?
Lenny (14:29):
We go there because we want to be told what to believe,
what to think, what to do,Because it's difficult to be
free, it's difficult to havefreedom in Christ.
It's harder to be free andshift your paradigm to full
freedom than it is to just gosomewhere and follow the herd.
You just go there and what do Ido?
(14:51):
What's next?
Do I get plugged into a group?
What do I need to do next?
What do I need to believe?
How do I need to clean up mylife?
And what do you find the focusat most churches, what I found
was that the focus is on you.
You're focusing on cleaning upyourself, cleaning up your act,
being a better, this being abetter, that the whole thing is
like a self-development program.
(15:14):
The closest thing that we see toa Christian church in Scripture
is found in 1 Corinthians 11-14.
You look at that letter theCorinthians 11-14, you see this.
That's the only view of whatyou could say church.
A gathering, a structuredgathering, would look like, and
(15:34):
you had spiritual gifts.
So you got to take that out.
We don't.
Those things don't comenaturally.
We're not babbling and peopleinterpreting and none of this
kind of stuff.
We're not performing miracles.
So you take that out, butthat's okay.
But you still have sharing andencouragement.
You didn't have one personspeaking.
You don't see that.
You don't see a sermon.
You don't see the overseerdoing all the talking and put
(15:57):
himself on a podium.
You don't see it.
It's not present.
Where did they get it?
Not from these guys, it didn'tcome from the apostles, the
gathering of the Corinthians.
If you compare and contrast itto the synagogues what we were
just talking about it's actuallypretty similar.
There's a lot of similaritiesthere.
That's the way they did stuff.
Then you could openly share.
Melissa (16:18):
I just think that would make all the difference if we
did that today.
All the difference for people,for their growth, confidence.
Lenny (16:26):
People sharing A lot of the grace.
Teachers say using theirspiritual gifts and contributing
to the body, the supernaturalgifts.
No, but we do have the gift ofthe Spirit and we're all part of
the body.
It's still the same thing.
It's still the same.
It's just not charismatic gifts.
It's not those types of gifts.
Our gift is love through theSpirit and we all should be able
(16:47):
to share our love for Christand to share what we're learning
for Christ.
And if we're not doing that, ifwe're not allowed to do that,
where are we going?
What are we doing?
I don't see a point.
You have all these uselessmembers.
There's only like one part inthe body of Christ.
It's supposed to be a wholebody.
Melissa (17:01):
I don't see a point.
I just see people going to beentertained and paying the
salary of the pastor.
Lenny (17:06):
That's a talking head.
Melissa (17:08):
Yeah.
Lenny (17:09):
So we see that today's leaders are more like
celebrities.
Why is that the established way?
Because we're not looking forleaders.
We stopped looking.
We just want somebody to do allthe work for us, but we're
making ourselves dormant bydoing so.
There's all these differentdenominations.
Right, if you took twodifferent churches, two
(17:30):
different denominations thatdidn't agree on something, you
bring these two churchestogether, these two
congregations that are meeting,and you sit them down and say
you guys all have to workthrough your differences.
You need to prove your case,church A and Church B.
You need to prove your case andyour pastor is going to be
overseeing these pastors aregoing to be overseeing the
(17:51):
process.
Make sure it doesn't get ugly,stays peaceful, but you guys are
going to work out yourdifferences together.
We want to hear people sharing,we want to share your input.
We're going to try to come to aconclusion as a body as to
what's true Leader.
He can even prove his case ifhe wants to, but everybody
standing here is going to haveto discern for themselves what
they think is true.
(18:12):
What do you think would happen?
Melissa (18:14):
I think that would be amazing.
I would think that that wouldmake these denominations
dissolve and we'd be down to theone truth of scripture.
Lenny (18:25):
It could only help if people actually said you know
what?
Yeah, let's do this.
And they're digging in andthey're going to try to come to
a conclusion Truly, Not biased,you know, let's pray beforehand.
Even that we'd look at thiswithout bias.
I mean, imagine the world if wewere actually trying to come
together.
That would be amazing If weactually cared about truth
(18:47):
rather than just saying well,you know, truth is whatever we
take from it.
Melissa (18:51):
All the denominations are a stumbling block to
unbelievers.
To see that, because you don'tpick and choose what you want to
believe about Christ, there'sthe one truth in Scripture and
that's what Christians ought towant to learn and teach.
So it's, quite frankly, garbagehaving all these denominations,
(19:13):
and that's what we ought to dois come together and teach the
truth.
Lenny (19:17):
The denominations prove that there's a problem in the
church today, agreed, they'reall trying to say no, we did the
research, we established ourdoctrines, these are our
doctrines and this is what weteach, because it's sound and
we've reviewed it and looked atit.
But yet you go to every streetcorner and there's a different
view on something.
Melissa (19:37):
You're right.
That reveals there's a problemin the church.
We should see that as a problemthat needs to be corrected.
Lenny (19:42):
There again, we have Catholic and Protestant.
Why do I have to be aProtestant if I'm not a Catholic
?
Where does that even come from?
Melissa (19:57):
Oh, I have to proclaim that I believe everything the
Reformers said.
What does that mean?
I don't agree with everythingthe Reformers did the
denominations and the labelsit's no good.
Lenny (20:02):
Why don't we just look for truth?
If every church out therelooked like the synagogues even
just the synagogues in theJewish days of the first century
, where you could share, wherepeople would hear you and you
could share your insight onevery street corner, you could
go there and at some point you'dget a turn sharing something
(20:24):
that you know about Scripture.
What would church look like?
Just think about that.
Melissa (20:30):
I think it'd be so fruitful, be beautiful.
I don't know if we'll ever seethat, but there's no reason not
to have hope and to be certainlyno reason not to promote it
when you look at the history,yeah, you think like, oh, that
could never one of those things,like that might never happen.
Lenny (20:45):
But if you were in the days of the reformers and you
said, yeah, having a bible,that'll never happen for the
common folks, you would havebeen wrong, that's very god said
no, you're all gonna havebibles he controls the history
we don't know when there's goingto be another reformation, but
you see that there's one thatcould happen.
Melissa (21:07):
That would only benefit the entire world there are a
lot of people starting to speakout about this that notice that
problem with the denominationsand the structure of the church
and starting to speak out.
I'm thankful for that.
Lenny (21:19):
It always starts with knowledge.
It starts with people waking up.
It's just like with governmentthey're going to get away with
anything they want until peoplesay that's enough.
We don't need better government.
We need people to stand forwhat's right.
Say that's enough.
We don't need better government.
We need people to stand forwhat's right.
That's true.
So there's a passage inColossians, if you want to read
it, verse 2-8.
And I took all these from theNASB.
(21:41):
I wanted to read what Paul saidabout tradition.
We've been talking abouttradition.
What did he say?
Melissa (21:47):
Paul said see to it that no one takes you captive
through philosophy and emptydeception, according to the
tradition of men, according tothe elementary principles of the
world, rather than according toChrist.
Lenny (22:03):
That sounds kind of like church today, if you ask me.
Melissa (22:05):
Wow.
Lenny (22:07):
Think of all the traditions that Gentiles had,
that Romans and the Greeks.
Think of all the traditionsthat the Jews had, romans and
the Greeks.
Think of all the traditionsthat the Jews had.
All these traditions,traditions.
The Jews had, so manytraditions.
We have so many traditions whenwe're born into this world.
All these traditions.
Church is the way it is.
That's just the way it is.
(22:27):
But what did the Apostle Paulsay to the early church to that
effect?
In 2 Thessalonians 2.15, hesaid so then, brethren, stand
firm and hold to the traditionswhich you were taught, whether
by word of mouth or by letterfrom us.
Melissa (22:45):
The traditions according to Christ.
Lenny (22:47):
Exactly, and what were those according to?
They would have been accordingto the gospel, based on the
gospel, not traditions of man.
Melissa (22:58):
Amen.
Lenny (22:59):
You look at like today's house churches.
Some people say house churchesare the way to go, but if you
just turn it into a mini big boxchurch, how is that any more
biblical?
You're still following the sameformat One person talking,
everybody else listening andmaybe we'll call on you if you
have a question one persontalking, everybody else
listening and maybe we'll callon you if you have a question.
Melissa (23:20):
The common theme I'm hearing you saying is that the
whole body should beparticipating, because the whole
body is important Exactly.
Lenny (23:25):
Another thing I quickly wanted to mention is this view
of 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy andTitus being pastoral letters.
People refer to those as thepastoral letters.
Pastoral letters, people referto those as the pastoral letters
.
But have you ever looked atwhat scripture really says about
pastor, deacon, elder leader?
What are their roles?
Study them.
What are their roles, what arethe qualifications?
(23:46):
Do some studying on it?
But then, when you look at theCorinthian church and how the
church looked in those days,what do you see them doing?
As I mentioned in our lastepisode, pastor was a spiritual
gift.
There's no list ofqualifications.
It's not any kind of specialtitle.
(24:06):
It was some kind of spiritualgift that we really know nothing
about.
But either way, what did theydo?
What were they doing in thechurch Overseeing leading?
They were they doing in thechurch Overseeing leading.
They were not doing all thetalking.
Melissa (24:20):
How about that?
Lenny (24:21):
I just think it's important to realize those
things We've got to realize.
These are traditions and theseare not traditions that were
handed down to us by theapostles.
Melissa (24:31):
I think we should know why we're following a tradition.
If we are, why are we following?
Yeah?
So church has becomeTraditional Traditional With its
own set of expectations, andentertainment is usually
involved with tradition.
Lenny (24:49):
Yeah, a lot of the Greek stuff Theaters, rhetoric.
Melissa (24:54):
Yeah the music.
Not that there's anything wrongwith having some fun.
Theaters, rhetoric yeah themusic.
Not that there's anything wrongwith having some fun.
Lenny (25:00):
A lot of grace teachers and people in the grace
community, for example and bygrace I mean like they
understand forgiveness, theyunderstand the fullness of
forgiveness, which a lot oftimes I refer to as full grace.
They understand the fullness ofour forgiveness.
In that community it's kind ofdivided.
(25:22):
Some people and some differentteachers.
They see like, oh, the biggestproblem is what's being taught
in the churches.
It's not the church itself,it's what's being taught.
But then you're sustaining thatbroken church of the speaker up
front and what you see takingplace even in those grace
communities is dangerous,because they're all looking to
teacher, pastor, leader for allof their learnings, all of their
(25:44):
insights.
Melissa (25:45):
Instead of to Christ.
Lenny (25:47):
Right.
Melissa (25:47):
And then what does it do to that brother in Christ?
That's the leader.
It elevates him to a statusthat's not healthy.
Lenny (25:54):
And suddenly they have all the answers.
They're the place to go to forevery answer.
Status.
That's not healthy.
Suddenly they have all theanswers.
They're the place to go to forevery answer, and that is not
healthy.
Melissa (26:00):
Suddenly they're struggling to be humble.
Lenny (26:02):
Nobody has the market cornered on truth.
When we listen to some of ourfavorite teachers, we don't
agree with them on everything.
I don't think it's that we'rehard to agree with.
It's because we are not peoplethat just look at the surface.
But I also know that I'll bewrong about some things.
You have to have the rightfoundation.
If you don't have a foundationof understanding the fullness of
(26:24):
your forgiveness, what's yourteaching going to look like?
Melissa (26:27):
You're going to cause people to stumble, including
yourself.
Lenny (26:30):
Yeah, and those things need to be challenged.
What if people were evaluatingtheir pastor's teaching every
week Throughout the week?
They'd gather together and justgo through it with a fine-tooth
comb and challenge it.
That's what we should be doing,Like, okay, you put out that
message, we're going to talkabout that and we're going to
make sure you got it all right.
Are people doing that?
No, they're not doing that.
(26:51):
If they did, they would onlycome to a deeper knowledge of
Christ and realize there's a lotof error and that their pastor
needs some help.
Melissa (27:01):
That's what we should be doing Doing our own research
throughout the week, our ownreading, and then come together
and go through it with afine-tooth comb.
Lenny (27:10):
It would be challenging to be a church leader.
I'm not going to lie.
I mean, we have a Christianpodcast.
If we had a large group ofpeople you know that we're
meeting together you would haveyour hands full, but you would
also be relieved because otherpeople are sharing, right.
So it's like, okay, a littleharder on one hand, but you're
(27:30):
just not on a platform anymore.
You're not the most specialthing going on.
Melissa (27:34):
That's right.
Lenny (27:35):
You're not Mr Hollywood anymore, you're not the most
special thing going on, that'sright.
You're not Mr.
Melissa (27:40):
Hollywood anymore.
You know, that's it.
You just got to stand down.
I think anytime we look likethe world we got to really think
about that.
announcement (27:44):
Thank you for listening to the Waking Up to
Grace podcast, brought to you bythe finished work of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
If you enjoyed today's episode,we would love to hear from you.
You can send encouragement ourway right from our episodes and
transcripts page or reach Lennyprivately from the contact form
at wakinguptogracecom.
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