May 22, 2025 • 56 mins
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Taryn Eyton joins Jennie and Craig to talk about her favorite trails on Vancouver Island and in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia as well as trail challenges to navigate on both sides of the border.
Happiest Outdoors - Taryn’s website and books
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennie Flaming (00:05):
Jennie, welcome to the Washington State hiking
podcast. I'm your host. JennieThwing Flaming,
Craig Romano (00:10):
and I'm your co host. Craig Romano, Craig
Jennie Flaming (00:12):
and I are happy to have you here. We provide
practical and timely, seasonalhiking advice for hikers, trail
runners and potential hikers andtrail runners of all skill and
ability levels that is helpful,accurate, fun and inclusive. Hi
everybody. Today, Craig and Ihave Taryn Eaton with us. She is
(00:34):
also a guidebook author. She'swritten several books about
backpacking in British Columbia.
And we're going to talk a littlebit about a variety of things
related to hiking today, andincluding some of her favorite
hikes that are kind of in oursort of area, close to
Washington. So Taryn, welcome tothe Washington State hiking
(00:57):
podcast. Thank you for
Taryn (01:01):
being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. So
Jennie Flaming (01:04):
to start us off, can you just introduce yourself
to everybody, let us know whoyou are, a little bit about your
business and your website andyour writing and how you came
into this type of work. Sure.
Unknown (01:18):
Yeah. So my name is Taryn. I live in Squamish, BC,
which is in between Vancouverand Whistler, if you don't know
it. I grew up in Vancouver, andI've been hiking my whole life
and backpacking for, I guess, alittle over 20 years now. About
10 or so years ago, I started alittle website called happiest
(01:41):
outdoors.ca to document myadventures, and over the years,
it grew into less of a traveldiary and more into a resource
for other hikers to kind ofreplicate the adventures I was
having. And then in 2021 myfirst guidebook was published
(02:02):
backpacking in southwestern BC,which covers the area near
Vancouver. And then last year,in 2024, my second guidebook was
published, which was backpackingon Vancouver Island. And they've
both, they've both done reallywell, which honestly is a bit of
a surprise to me. I wasn't surehow much of a market there'd be
for books that are about likeovernight and multi day
(02:22):
adventures, but people seemreally excited about them, which
I'm really pleased to see.
Craig Romano (02:28):
That's awesome.
And I have your second book,Taryn, as you know, and I used
it last summer, and it isfantastic. So I will have no
problem plugging that today totell, to tell our audience out
here if they're planning onspending any time on Vancouver
Island, the book is a must. Andeven though I know in my review,
it's called backpacking, itdefinitely can be used as a day
(02:50):
hiking guide too. So great,great guide to the island. Yeah,
Taryn (02:55):
that's a good point, that both of the books are are
backpacking books. The Islandbook has some day hikes in it,
but both books you could use forday hikes, because some of the
backpacking trips are quiteshort, so they're beginner trips
for backpackers, but that wouldmake them good day hikes,
Jennie Flaming (03:13):
totally. And I will add to that for folks
listening that your website,which will put links to both
your website and your books inthe show notes. But the your
website is an awesome resourcefor especially for BC hiking
too. So I keep it, yeah, so youknow, today we're talking about,
(03:37):
you know, a little bit about BC,but also about some other bigger
issues that impact all of us ashikers on both sides of the
border and in other states aswell. Craig, since this is
something that you've dealt withquite a bit as well, I'm gonna
let you take the lead in talkingabout gatekeeping. And
Craig Romano (03:58):
I know Taryn and I, we've talked about this in
the past, about, I know we bothhave been, have have dealt with
disgruntled people to say about,about gatekeeping, and it's an
interesting topic, because itkind of at the same time we're
trying to promote use, to getpeople to get out and enjoy our
(04:20):
natural resources and to be goodstewards of the land. And at the
same token, we're watchingunprecedented use. And this is
true both in British Columbiaand Washington, actually,
throughout both nations as well.
So Taryn, yeah, definitely. Iknow the Lower Mainland, in
particular. I know where youare, near garibaldi, and I mean,
the use is going record numberof people hitting the trails.
(04:43):
Are you seeing a lot ofgatekeepers and people that are
upset of what you're doing andif they're trying to keep their
secrets? And if so, how do youaddress those people?
Taryn (04:56):
Yeah, I think that it's really interesting to balance.
As you said. The, you know,getting people outdoors and, you
know, protecting these wildplaces that we love. And I think
that's something that's reallyimportant to remember when we
have this conversation, is thatone of the the real problems of,
you know, like overcrowding ontrails and increased people on
(05:18):
trails, is that what we need todo is shift some of those people
onto other trails, right? So I'msure, you know, I know in the
Seattle area there's a few,like, super popular trails that
everybody knows about, and thesame thing for Vancouver. So,
you know, we need to tell peopleabout there are other trails.
You could use them. They mighthave a different view than the
(05:39):
one you've seen on Instagram,but you might also appreciate
that view. So, you know what?
We're taking people off of, youknow, these really popular
trails, and directing them toless popular trails. The people
who were already on those lesspopular trails get upset because
they now have a differentexperience. Yes. So, you know, I
think that that that'sdefinitely part of it, and
(06:01):
that's that's really importantto recognize that, you know, the
nature belongs to everyone, andbecause, just because you've
been having a particularexperience on a less popular
trail for some period of timedoes not mean that you are
entitled or guaranteed thatexperience in perpetuity. So I
think that's, you know, like,that's really important to note.
The other thing that I thinkcomes up a lot when we talk
(06:22):
about gatekeeping is, you know,people say, Oh, I found this
place because I looked on maps,or I explored, or I was shown to
me by someone local, or someonewho, you know, has used This
place for generations. Thereforeit is somehow mine. This is
special. This is not for you.
(06:46):
And I think that I definitelyunderstand that sentiment when
people are coming from that theyfeel like they worked hard or
they have a legacy associatedwith the place. But the reality
is that that's it can be thatcan be really problematic,
right? Because that, in reallyis tied to a lot of issues
(07:07):
around privilege. And you know,if we think about the tradition
little base of the outdoorrecreation community, you know,
we're white and affluent andmale, and if we're saying that
we're not going to share ourplaces, that's really going to
keep the community in that sameplace. And you know, everybody
(07:29):
needs to start somewhere.
Everyone is new to somewhere, tosome place. And so by sharing
information about places wherewe're widening the scope of
who's welcome in the outdoors,
Craig Romano (07:40):
yeah, absolutely.
And what I'm finding inparticular is, and I had an
incident this fall with the Met,how Valley just nasty, nasty,
nasty, nasty, the attack justlike you. And I'm trying to get
people to use other trails, andI had all these people attack
me. And what's interesting, youknow, I did some sleuthing and
found in almost all cases of thepeople that were attacking me,
(08:00):
we're all transplants to theregion. They didn't even grow up
there, so they couldn't evenpull that. You know, I've been
here generations. Blah, blah,blah, which, again, is worthless
because we're talking aboutpublic lands that, and
especially this in the US. Inthis case, it was a national
forest. That means, I don't careif you're from Florida, Puerto
Rico, New Jersey, California,it's your land. These people who
live there don't have any moreright to have that land. So
(08:23):
there's this incredibleprovincialism and elitism that
that is taking place in some ofthese places, not all places.
And so, yeah, it's incredible.
And and then, you know, again,trying to address people about
that, about sharing, and theydon't even realize, sometimes
they'll wrap it up inenvironmentalism that they want
(08:44):
to protect, but you realizethey're doing all these things
out there, and it really isn't.
And if you're that concerned,are you involved in a lot of
these organizations? Because Iknow you do as well as I we try
to get people to to to give backto to belong to organizations
and to work to protect theselands. So how many of these
gatekeepers? It's just they wanttheir own little private retreat
there. So
Taryn (09:08):
I think you touched on a really important point there,
around how gatekeeping andenvironmentalism gets tied up.
So I've definitely seen a lot ofarguments, especially on social
media recently, about how youknow, really, you know, like,
well minded people will pointout to influencers when they are
(09:31):
sharing the location ofsomewhere that's very
environmentally sensitive, andsay, you know, like, please
don't share this information. Orif you're going to share
information about thisenvironmentally sensitive place,
please include information abouthow to respect it and how to
preserve it. And the peoplewho've shared the information in
the first place are saying like,I don't stand for gatekeepers.
(09:51):
Don't tell me what I can andcan't share. This place belongs
to everyone. And I think thatthat's really interesting and
nuanced line to walk. Yeah, andI so I think that definitely, on
the one hand, if you're going toshare about a place, any place,
whether it's environmentallysensitive or not, you should be
sharing information about how torespect it. You know, how to
(10:12):
preserve it, and how to respectthe people who were there before
you, whether those areindigenous people or local
people. You know, Trailheadparking is an issue, but you
should also look at the contextof the place that you're
sharing. So you know, if the youknow we're talking about public
lands, if the land manager,public land manager, has a
(10:35):
policy about that place, then Ithink that we should follow it
right. If they're asking peoplenot to publicize it because it
contains something veryenvironmentally sensitive or
contains like archeologicalthings that are archeologically
significant, then I think weshouldn't share it. But if the
public body that's in charge ofthat land doesn't have a policy
around it and isn't developingone that says people should stay
(10:58):
away, then I think as long asyou're sharing information
responsibly, then it's, it'sfair game, the idea that we
should, you know, we should notshare things, you know, like, I
don't think that I am thearbiter of what is and isn't a
safe place to share. I thinkthat the land manager of that
(11:20):
body is the one that is thearbiter of that? Yeah,
Craig Romano (11:23):
I agree. And in many cases, especially in the
US, and it's gonna even getworse now is that our lead
agencies are just there'sthey're being eviscerated, as
far as their staff and theirbudget, and in many cases now
it's up to people like you andme to to make sure if we are
going to share these places,that we absolutely talk about
(11:47):
the regulations and thesensitivities. And so even as
someone who writes books andworks on the web and tries to
get people out, this is where Itake issue with influencers and
a lot where I see photos beingshared, it's just, it's a free
for all of people saying, Go outand do this without saying, hey,
you know, there's archeologicalor cultural issues. Your dog
(12:07):
isn't allowed. All these thingsthat are not being shared, and
that's where we're creating alot of problems. So people are
just showing up from that photo,and it's creating all kinds of
issues. And then, of course, Iknow we've talked about this in
the past, too, and this isdefinitely an issue. Yeah, you
know, it always cracks me up inthese areas. I I've been here
for three generations, and I've,you know, what? About the
(12:29):
indigenous people have been heresince the beginning. None of
this three generation stuff,that's a crock. And I'm willing
to believe, maybe, prove mewrong, that many of these people
are pushing back on thegatekeeper and pulling that. You
know, I've lived here my entirelife. You're not. How sensitive
are you to, you know, indigenousissues? Are you allowing, are
you allowing traditional uses ofthe land, or is it just your
(12:50):
little background to go crosscountry skiing or or mountain
climbing? So, yeah, you know, Iknow you're involved in a lot of
especially, you know, my, mynewest book coming out is on
British Columbia, so I've beentrying to stay in tune with all
the reconciliation that's goingon. You guys are light years
ahead of us. And again, I thinkin our current administration
(13:11):
here, you will continue to belight years ahead of us on that
issue. It's kind of share thatwith some of our listeners about
what's going on with BritishColumbia and public lands and
indigenous rights andreconciliation and CO managing,
and take it from there. I mayjust break
Jennie Flaming (13:26):
in and say that was a very nice segue. Craig,
well
Taryn (13:31):
done. Thank you. Yeah. So if you're not familiar with the
sort of situation in BC, youknow, like most of Canada, when
it was settled by Europeans, hadtreaties signed between
indigenous people and thecolonial government, or later
the Canadian government. And youknow, the fairness of those
(13:56):
treaties, of course, isdefinitely suspect. But here in
BC, especially in western BC andcoastal BC, we don't have
treaties. They gave up anddecided that they had one, which
was, you know, not in line withinternational law. So, so the
treaty negotiation kind ofcontinues in BC, you know that
(14:19):
we have, like Washington, a hugenumber of different indigenous
groups in BC, you know, like,because of the terrain and the
sort of ecosystems here, they'relike, some of them are quite
small. So it's a lot ofdifferent nations to manage and
and work with. And ourgovernment here, for the most
(14:39):
part, is working with thesenations on a government to
government relationship, andBritish Columbians in general.
But of course, not all arefairly on board with the idea
that indigenous people deserverespect and. Acknowledgement,
(15:01):
and that the treatment of themhere was was not appropriate.
How we go forward is somethingthat almost no one agrees on.
But the way that it's affectingthe way that it's affecting
outdoor recreation, is fairlyinteresting. So, you know, on a
on a basic level, a lot ofpeople are beginning to
(15:21):
recognize and acknowledge thelands in which they travel on.
They're starting to accept andwelcome indigenous place names
being restored. There's placeswhere indigenous groups are co
managing back country or and,and, you know, provincial parks.
(15:44):
And one of the like, moreinteresting things that I'm kind
of involved with, because I do alot of outdoor advocacy work,
both with friends of garibaldiPark society and the umbrella
organization, the Federation ofmountain clubs of BC, is that
all of our provincial parks,which are basically like state
parks, are, you know, they havemanagement management plans
(16:06):
about what should be happeningin the park, what the policies
are around development andrecreation and hunting and
wildlife protection. And most ofthose management plans are very
out of date. And in order toupdate the management plans, the
that requires under the currentframework, the provincial
(16:26):
government to negotiate with theindigenous nation whose land
that's on. So while we reallywelcome reconciliation and want
indigenous people to have moreof a role in what's happening on
their land. It's also reallyhamstrung our provincial parks
to modernize and develop moretrails, develop more
(16:49):
campgrounds, because they'restuck in a consultation process
with the government andindigenous peoples and
indigenous peoples in BC, likemany in North America, are busy
worrying about getting cleandrinking water and secure
housing for their people, andthey're really less interested
in spending time negotiating onpark management plans unless
(17:09):
there's an economic benefit forthem. And of course, right, I
don't blame them. That's whatneeds to be their priority. So
it's an interesting politicalsituation here, for sure.
Craig Romano (17:21):
If you, and again, to a lot of our American
listeners here, which are themajority, if you go on to the BC
parks website and click onDecember, you're going to see,
in most cases, there's going tobe a reconciliation link there.
And I know in particular theMetro Vancouver Regional
District, and that would be theequivalent to a county here. So
(17:42):
to a county here. So that KingCounty, they, they've seemed to
be been on board with this a lotearlier, in particularly working
with some of the the FirstNations and and CO managing. And
again, I see, I mean, there arenation Well, you know, first of
all, people know that Canada is,I believe, one of the first
(18:02):
nations that actually has anentire territory that's that's
indigenous, run, none of it. AndI just found out there's
actually a Tim Hortons there. Icannot believe that
Unknown (18:15):
expensive. That means must be for anybody that know,
Jennie Flaming (18:18):
my husband Jay, has been to that Tim Hortons
Nunavut, and it's veryexpensive. Yeah, I can't
remember exactly, but, yeah,$10,000
Craig Romano (18:32):
to fly there. So a $20 cup of coffee is
Taryn (18:36):
flying only. There's no roads to Nunavut, so it's a very
expensive place to live, andthey have no agriculture.
Everything is flown in. All thefood is flown in. Yeah.
Jennie Flaming (18:47):
You know, one thing that I think is really
interesting just about thisconversation overall, is that
how how different and alsosimilar things are on both sides
of the border when it comes tothings like this. And I agree
with Craig that Canada, youknow, while having a very
similar history when it comes toindigenous people and
(19:12):
colonization has has moved a lotfurther than than we have, which
is really what's really greatfor us to see, even though I
love that, that you've you'vetalked Taryn about how it's not
just all roses and andbeautiful, like it's still very
challenging, but,
Craig Romano (19:30):
you know, yeah, what's interesting? And then,
and Terry brought this, I didn'teven realize this, you know, my
background is in history, and Istudied Northwest history and
Canadian history, and I didn'teven realize at the time that
correct me, if I'm wrong here,that in British Columbia, none
of the first nations signed atreaty, so it's all unseated. Is
(19:50):
that correct?
Taryn (19:52):
I I believe so I wouldn't confirm that for sure. There
might be some overlap with somepeople in East. Eastern BC or
Northeastern BC? I don't thinkso, though it's, it's very
treaty list here, for sure,
Craig Romano (20:07):
and see, and that's an important issue here
in the States people listening,that even though I think almost
all, all of our our tribes heredid sign treaties, of as we
know, 99.9% of them were brokenby, you know, by by by us, that
that still allows it illegalissues. And so in particularly
(20:29):
in Washington, one of thebiggest issues that that allowed
indigenous people the right toto fish on their under land was
the bolt decision in 1971 Ibelieve, was 771 or 73 and so
that we're able to use the lawin that case. But in BC case,
there was never even a treatysigned. So so it's in a totally
(20:49):
different area now, like yousaid, now you're sitting there,
in essence, kind of creatingsome type of legal framework to
go forward that in itself isvery different, and I believe
that it's different anywhereelse in Canada as well how
Quebec is dealing with theirfirst nations in Ontario and so
forth. So it's a definitelydifferent issue and also, but it
also gives lots of opportunitiesto go forward with. You know,
(21:11):
some of these places should beco managed. And I know we've,
we've thought about it here.
There's, there's a bill inGeorgia to get a to get a new
national park co manage with theMuskie people who were President
Jackson kicked out. But again, Idon't see that happening for at
least four more years. So yeah.
Jennie Flaming (21:34):
So Taryn, um, another thing we wanted to talk
about with you is Leave NoTrace, and I feel like that
really connects to this issue ofgatekeeping. I mean, I feel like
there's a lot of gatekeepingthat happens even with Leave No
Trace, like the idea that peopleshould just know what that
(21:55):
means, and also how that relatesto First Nations and indigenous
people and how they use theland, and how we can learn from
that. So I would love to to haveyou share a little bit about
that, and then we'll move intosome spots on Vancouver Island
(22:16):
and think,
Taryn (22:17):
sure, yeah, so I've been involved with Leave No Trace
Canada since 2006 first as atrainer, and then starting in
2019 as a master educator.
Although they've redone thelabels now I think it's level
one, level two and level three,something like that. I can't
remember. I haven't kept up.
(22:39):
Sounds right? Yeah, I also wason the board of directors for
Leave No Trace Canada for a fewyears. And yeah, leave no trace
Canada is just the Canadianbranch of the Leave No Trace
organization started in America.
And I think that once I firstheard about the concept of Leave
No Trace, I was like, Oh, thisis this. This is it. This is
(23:00):
great. It's a framework that Ican look to to understand the
best way to treat the, you know,these wild places around me. And
you know, like the sevenprinciples are a great way to
guide my actions. And I wasreally excited to learn about it
and to start teaching it. Andthroughout the years, I've
(23:22):
recognized that there are a lotof other perspectives on leave
no trace. And I think that partof the problem is that while a
lot of people have done a greatjob of publicizing what Leave No
Trace is it's by far widelymisunderstood. So a lot of
people, when you say Leave NoTrace to them, have a couple of
(23:47):
reactions that are not what thefounders of Leave No Trace
intended. So one of thosereactions is often, oh, yeah, I
pick up my garbage. I'm good,thanks. I don't need no more
information. And there are sevenprinciples of leave no trace.
There are many more things tolearn, and you don't know what
you don't know is one of thethings that I like to tell
people, you know, you don't youdon't know what you're missing.
(24:08):
The other reaction that I'veheard a lot is, oh, leave no
trace. Well, that's impossible,so why would I bother? I'm gonna
go there. I'm gonna step onthings. I might kill some ants.
So who gives it, you know? Like,yeah, who gives a crap? Like,
you know? Like, why you know?
(24:30):
Like, we are all gonna have animpact. So, like, all this BS
about minimizing my impact,like, yes, or whatever. And I
think that's definitely a prettycynical take on things. And I
think that once you start totalk to people about Leave No
Trace, one of the things that Ilearned when I was learning to
(24:52):
teach Leave No Trace issomething that is referred to as
authority of the resource, whichI really hate that term. Right?
But what it is is basicallylearning to talk to people and
explain the impact on the land.
And so instead of saying, Don'tlitter, you'll get a fine thing.
You know, did you know when youlitter, it harms wildlife, it
looks ugly, you know, all ofthese things explaining what
(25:18):
happens. You know, like, youknow, put your dog on a leash,
you'll get a fine. Instead ofsaying, Did you know that
wildlife are disturbed byanimals, and there are
endangered species here thatyou're scaring away? Or what
resonates more with dog owners?
Did you know there are dangerousanimals here, that bulb hurt
your precious fur baby?
Jennie Flaming (25:38):
Yes, I'm a dog owner, and I have to say, you
know, that before I had a dog ii was very much like, I've
always been really bothered byoff leash dogs on trails, and
this is something we have to doa whole other episode about. And
when I became a dog owner, I waslike, am I gonna change? And if
(26:03):
anything, I feel like I feelmore that way now that I have a
dog, and I know I'm in theminority of dog owners there.
But you know, when I was a kid,I was afraid of dogs. I know
that culturally, it not everyculture embraces dogs in the as
snugly family members in the waythat you know, kind of my
(26:27):
background does. And, yeah, sojust, we'll talk more about that
another time. But, yeah, I'mglad
Taryn (26:34):
that dogs are one. Dogs are really tricky. And I think
that the way that, the otherthing that I think that's really
interesting, that I haven'treally seen that much discussion
about, is the way that dogs, theposition of dogs in the North
American family, has changed inthe last generation or two. You
know, they were a possession,and they lived outdoors, and now
(26:59):
they are absolutely a familymember. And some people,
including my sister, would arguethat they have the same rights
as people. So, you know, like, Ithink, like, It's just we've
undergone this huge shift, andnot everyone is a dog owner. So
they haven't, they don't feelthe same way. They're still back
at a dog as a possession. Andyou should, you know, treat it
(27:21):
as such, maybe not, you know,leave it in the yard all night.
But you know, it doesn't get tohave as much free will and
choices as
Jennie Flaming (27:28):
a human Yeah.
Yeah. Cool. Okay. Um, well,let's transition to talking a
little bit about some of yourfavorite hikes, Terran, since we
have you here. So let's startwith Vancouver Island. I mean,
man, if you're listening to thisWashingtonians and you have a
(27:51):
bend of Vancouver Island, yougotta go. It's awesome.
Taryn (27:57):
And especially if you're like in the sort of like
Seattle, Puget Sound area. It'svery easy.
Craig Romano (28:02):
You know, I live, I live an hour from the border,
and getting to Vancouver Islandis not, is not difficult at all,
especially BC Ferries with greatreservation system and
everything else. So get outthere. People go,
Taryn (28:15):
yes. You can also go from Port Angeles. That's an option
too, absolutely. Yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah. So I guess favorite
hikes on Vancouver Island, Ihaving just talked about how
easy Vancouver Island was to getto my favorite part of Vancouver
Island is northern VancouverIsland, which is an eight hour
(28:35):
drive from Southern VancouverIsland. So I've now added a ton
of travel time for youWashingtonians, and it is for me
too, it's an all day trek to getthere, but I love the North
Island, so kind of a like, maybea similar vibe, a little bit to
the Olympic coast in that on theNorth Island, so lots of
(28:56):
beautiful rainforest andbeaches, but definitely a
different, a little bitdifferent feel. So Cape Scott,
which is the very northern tipof Vancouver Island, has some
really interesting history, bothboth settler history and
indigenous history in the like1800s late 1800s and early 1900s
(29:20):
a bunch of Danes tried to makefarms up there. And then during
World War Two, there were somemilitary installations. So
there's lots of kind ofinteresting historical stuff
that you can poke around therein the forest and see. And then,
of course, there are thebeautiful beaches. And then
there's lots of industry,interesting indigenous history
(29:41):
up there. The you know, people,of course, have been living
there since, as they say, timeimmemorial. So there are lots of
lots of things to see, if weknow where to look them, and
lots lots of history. Forexample, there's a village in
Cape Scott Park, a village site.
And. Um, that was actuallyshelled by the British during
colonial times. There wasdispute about someone who had
(30:05):
allegedly murdered a Britishperson, and the British sent the
Navy, which took years to getthere by the time everybody had
forgotten about it, and thenthey shelled the village. So
there's lots of, like, reallywacky, interesting, I guess they
wouldn't call it wacky theydied, but, like, kind of, really
interesting historical anomaliesup there.
Craig Romano (30:28):
Yeah, and it's, it's funny, you mentioned that
in your book, you have sidebarson that too. And again, you
could talk about VancouverIsland. A lot of people had no
idea that the Nuka sound was amajor crisis that almost brought
all these major powers togetherfor war. And if you look at
where NUCCA is today, and you'relike, what is up with that? So I
(30:49):
think people are going toexactly be amazed at some of the
history. One of the thingsSarah, you told me about when we
discussed last in Vancouver,last, last winter that
absolutely amazed me. And thisties into Jennie and I just did
a segment on incredible wildlifeencounters we've had. So this is
(31:09):
either going to scare people orattract them. Tell talk about
that wolf encounter again onVancouver Island. That just
blows me away.
Taryn (31:16):
Yeah. So the wolf population in BC, or coastal BC,
like in a lot of the US wasreally decimated by hunting and
bounties for predators, and it'scoming back. And so there are
places, you know, like like thecape Scott area at the northern
tip of Vancouver Island, orTofino on the West Coast, which
(31:38):
is a popular touristdestination, that are seeing
rebounding wolf populations. Butthese wolves are really
interesting because they're youmight have seen there's a
Netflix, Netflix documentary afew years ago. They're called
Sea Wolves, so they're agenetically distinct population.
They swim a lot, they eat a lotof marine life, and they they
(32:00):
live on the beaches and in therain forests. And so we were
hiking on nook Island, which isoff the west coast of Vancouver
Island, so a pretty remote placeto get there by a float plane or
water taxi. Although it's a it'sa, you know, fairly popular, I
mean, not super popular, butit's a well known backpacking
(32:20):
destination, the maucha mujanation manages the trail, and
are actually looking actively topromote it for tourism, to help
their their nation have some Ecotourism. But at the time that I
hiked it, it was just startingto be popular, so it was not
very busy. And one night, wewere doing our dishes on the
beach, and, you know, the sunwas just going down, there was a
(32:46):
little bit of light left in thesky, and we noticed there were
some animals on the beach, so weretreated back up the short hill
from the water to our campfire,and watched as half a dozen
wolves appeared, and then more,and then more. And I think in
the end, there were probablyabout 20 wolves, and the older,
(33:09):
larger males came quite close tous to see what we were. They
were very curious, and weshouted and threw rocks, and
they stayed right at the edge ofthe farthest place we could
throw rocks. And the youngerwolves played in the creek,
splashing each other andwrestling, and, you know, it
seemed like hours later, butprobably was five minutes. They
(33:30):
all trotted off and went downthe beach past us and went
wherever they went, and we wentto sleep, kind of wondering
what, what we should be doing ifwe were safe, but we didn't have
any further incidents. And thenat the end of the hike, we
walked into yuquot, which wasformerly a very large village
(33:51):
and is now seasonally home to afew people from the mawa chat
Bucha let nation. And we toldthem about our our encounter
with these wolves, and they saidthat's the most wolves they've
ever heard of. Anybody seeing itonce. So I think it must have
several packs together meeting.
For some reason, it wasdefinitely a lifetime highlight
for me. I love
Jennie Flaming (34:13):
that, and I love that you're like and then we
went to sleep. I know that'ssuch a relatable backpacking
story. This like an animalencounter that was awesome. Now
it's bedtime,
Taryn (34:30):
and I thought, I thought it would have have trouble
sleeping, but I think I justadrenaline crashed and just
passed out. Oh, we did see onewolf in the morning too.
Jennie Flaming (34:40):
Of course you did, and you're like, Okay, this
is fine.
Craig Romano (34:43):
Amazing story. It beats it beats all my wildlife
encounters. Let me tell you itdid. That's incredible.
Jennie Flaming (34:49):
So um, Taryn, what else, anything else for
Vancouver Island that you wantto share as a highlight? Yeah, I
Taryn (34:57):
mean, I think that Vancouver Island gets a lot of
press for their COVID. Hiking,and the coastal hiking is
beautiful and incredible, but Ithink that a lot of people don't
recognize that Vancouver Islandhas beautiful Alpine hiking as
well. So the center of theisland is Strathcona Provincial
Park. It's the oldest ProvincialPark in BC, and the mountains
(35:17):
are not exceptionally tall, butthey're the tallest ones on the
island. And the terrain in thereis really beautiful and rugged.
It's old, like ancient seafloor. So it's kind of this
interesting, weathered volcanicrock, you know, the sort of
classic pocket glaciers, scrubbytrees, pointy rocks situation.
(35:38):
But because you're in the middleof the island. Once you get up
there, the views are incredible.
Like you can get up and see theocean on both sides. So like the
Mount Washington area, which isa ski hill, is a great place to
explore, because you can driveall the way up thanks to that
Ski Hill Road, and then walkthrough the sub alpine meadows
and climb Mount Albert Edward,which is the sixth tallest
mountain on the on the island,and there's backcountry camping
(36:02):
there, some of which is quiteclose to the to the trailhead.
So really accessible forbeginners, really beautiful
place to explore.
Craig Romano (36:11):
You just I, and I was just that I've been to
Strathcona a couple of times.
It's wonderful. Matter of fact,it's the second place I ever
took my wife camping and hiking,and she got so hooked on the
back country. And then lastsummer, using your book, I went
to the forbidden plateau, whichis in the Strathcona. And again,
one of the amazing things, and Ijust wrote a feature on this for
Northwest travel magazine. Somaybe there's going to be some
(36:33):
more Americans up there this,this coming summer, the
accessibility that, as you said,you get this beautiful paved
road coming out of Comox Valleythat gets you up to where the
ski the ski areas you parkthere. You're already in the sub
Alpine. Beautiful trails,boardwalks. You've got 2020,
lakes out there, and thesewonderful back, back, back
country areas, platforms you cancamp. So again, your beginner
(36:56):
backpacker is absolutely it's areally well run part. It's
beautiful. And again, if peopleare unaware, it's it's over a
half million acres. I think it'sup to 600,000 it's huge. It's
the largest, largest park on theisland. And as Terence, it's the
oldest, the oldest of BC,amazing place.
Jennie Flaming (37:16):
Cool. Okay, so, Taryn, let's move over to the
mainland. Tell us about some ofyour favorite hikes over there.
Yeah.
Taryn (37:28):
So I live in Squamish, and one of the reasons we moved
here is because it's adjacent tomy favorite park, Garibaldi
Provincial Park, which is thesecond oldest Provincial Park in
BC. And Garibaldi is, I thinkif, if history had been
different, it would have been anational park like the the sort
(37:50):
of like scenery level is, isNational Park worthy? So huge
volcano, dormant volcano, MountGaribaldi and sky in the
Squamish language, and thengiant lava dammed lake below it,
glaciers. That's sort of thecore of the park. But then
(38:10):
there's lots of other areas ofthe park as well, accessed via
five different trail heads. Theentire park is back country.
There's there's no frontcountry, anything you have to
hike into the park at theshortest about three and a half
kilometers to get to anythinggood, but usually longer. So
(38:30):
Garibaldi Lake, with as a basecamp for backpacking, with day
hikes to the Black Tusk, whichis a big volcanic plug, or
panorama Ridge, which has anincredible view of the lake, are
sort of a classic trip. Butother parts of the park, like
elfin lakes, which is kind of aridge walk along an old road
(38:53):
with beautiful views down to theSquamish Valley, where I live on
one side, and the glaciers, themount quam ice field on the
other. And then you can do somehikes and scrambles past there
also great. But the you know,incredible scenery and proximity
to Vancouver has a drawback,which is that it's a very, very
(39:13):
popular and very busy Park. Soin all year round, you need
reservations to camp in the backcountry, which you can get
online four months to the datebefore your trip. And in the
summer, you also need a parkingpass to park at the trailheads,
and you have to reserve thoseonline two days before your trip
(39:34):
in the morning. And those arequite hard to get, especially on
weekends. So it's definitely,you know, a place where we're
seeing increased use andincreased pressure, but it's
also a place where we're reallybutting up against, you know,
(39:55):
like we talked about earliergovernment not having. Enough
Monday funding or a mandate todo things. So there are lots of
opportunities in the park toexpand things and and have more
access, or, you know, differentaccess. But unfortunately, BC
(40:16):
parks just doesn't have themanpower, the people power to
make that happen. So we're stuckwith the permit system for use
at the moment. That's
Craig Romano (40:28):
a good point you made, too. And garibal is
amazing. I've been to a lot ofthose places. You talked about
incredible place, about therestrictions, and if you know,
if you look at a map of theLower Mainland, you'll see these
huge provincial parks,garibaldi, golden ears, the pine
cone, Burke, huge. But then whenyou look at how much of it is
(40:49):
actually accessible with a road,it's, in some cases it, it's
less than a couple of percentum. And so again, as the Greater
Vancouver area has exploded, youknow, three and a half, 4
million people, and then peoplecoming from all over. Is there
room to develop more punching ina road, farther, more campsites,
(41:11):
more trails? Or do we just leaveit wild to some of these areas
and then just have the frontcountry stuff, incredibly,
increasingly get so, so crowded,so popular again, because all
those places you talk about itmoved here in 1989 I would I
went to Garibaldi on a whim. Icould just go up there and camp
and and same thing with goldenairs. And now everything is
(41:32):
permanent. We're having thesame, same issues here in
Washington and Oregon andCalifornia. You would think
there'd be a move to, again,increase some accessibility, you
know, barring going intosensitive lands and such. But
there, I think there's plenty ofareas, especially a lot of the
cutover areas, that are comingback at second, third growth
forest. Yeah, it's gonna, it'sgonna involve one. I mean, the
(41:55):
people are asking for it, butthe government has got to back
this and get behind this. Andwhat's it going to take to do
that we're not keeping up. Yeah.
Taryn (42:05):
I mean, I think that's a great point, and it's really
difficult. I think that the twomain things that are keeping
well, the three main things thatare keeping this from happening,
one is funding. So successiveprovincial governments in BC
have cut funding to BC parks,and we have a government in
power now that theoreticallywould be quite welcoming to
(42:29):
increasing funding to BC parks,but there are way more pressing
issues, right? We have an opioidcrisis. We have a housing
crisis, you know, like, thoseare absolutely first priority,
and BC parks doesn't even reallyshow up in in budget documents.
Much lately, it's not a prioritywhen new governments come in and
just, you know, announce theirnew plans. The second, the
(42:53):
second hurdle is that the BCparks ministry and management is
very conservation minded. And,you know, I guess rightly so. So
you know, Garibaldi Park and theparks close to BC, hold
endangered populations ofgrizzly bears and mountain
goats. Unlike your Washingtonmountain goats, ours are very
(43:13):
shy. I don't know what's goingon in Washington, especially
Eastern Washington, where yourgoats are just like coming up to
people, yeah, scary. Ours, oursare super shy. I don't know why.
Like, they see a helicopter, andthen they, like, leave an area
forever, which is concerning. Soa lot of the studies around
(43:36):
expanding recreationopportunities have been stymied
by goat, especially goat matingand birthing and, you know,
grounds, you know, that kind ofthing. And then the last one is,
one we've already discussed, isthat in order to put in anything
new, you need to negotiatenation to nation with indigenous
(43:56):
governments. And there, it's nota priority for them. And they
also, you know, have their ownthings they'd like to see in
parks. You know, they havetraditional hunting grounds they
haven't been able to access foryears. They have, you know,
sensitive cultural sites thatthey want protected, that they
don't want publicized. There'slots and lots of factors. So I
(44:18):
think it's really politicallycomplicated. And there are
outside of parks. There are, youknow, there has been some new
trail building in the Sea to Skycorridor between Vancouver and
Whistler, but not much. And weneed more.
Craig Romano (44:34):
What I'm seeing in in BC, in particular Vancouver,
and the same thing that'shappening here, I think our
glory days of the back country,and especially in the States,
when we had presidents likeRoosevelt in both of them, and
matter of fact, I always joke,nobody is in my lifetime. Nobody
has ever run for presidentsaying I'm going to make our
(44:55):
national park system greatagain. I would love that person
has my vote. Thank you. It'sjust not a priority, like you
said. But on the positive side,what I'm seeing is this
incredible increase of urbantrails and rail trails. And
again, I just wrote a book on onthe Greater Vancouver, on the
Metro Vancouver, regionaldistricts, urban trails. It
(45:16):
blows me away. It's anincredible trail system. It has
expanded so much so we can makethe argument too, that again,
for equity, you know, for beingtrails, being equitable and
everything we're building thetrails close to where the people
live. Because it requires, youknow, it requires some money to
get out to the Rockies and intothe interior and all these
(45:36):
places where where people live.
You can get on a get on a bus orthe sky train and have these
beautiful park systems. So maybethat, you know, maybe that seems
to be where we're emphasizing alot of our our trail building
right now. And of course,there's other issues too. You
deal with climate issues too,trying to get people you know,
to bike to work and and push alot of these things. So I think,
I think we can celebrate that,that we're making some amazing
(46:00):
progress. And even in placeslike in the Okanagan, Penticton,
some of those areas that theurban trail systems that are
growing there is incredibleplaces you wouldn't expect it.
So yeah,
Taryn (46:12):
and I think that is a function of funding. So Metro
Vancouver parks, which maintainsa lot of parks, a little bit
more like not wilderness parks,but wilderness adjacent parks in
the Vancouver area, theiroverall budget is larger than Bc
parks. BC parks manages 1000parks. Much of Vancouver has, I
think, two dozen.
Craig Romano (46:33):
It's the same thing the King County park
system, same which is Seattle.
And the King County Park Systemrivals a lot of our state parks.
They have an amazing park systemand a trail system. Yeah,
exactly, I guess you go wherethe money and where the people
are, yeah.
Jennie Flaming (46:48):
So Taryn, are there any other like, trails or
areas for hiking you want tohighlight? Obviously, like BC is
amazing, and there's like,unending amazing hikes. But are
there any others that you wantto call out today? Yeah.
Taryn (47:03):
So one of my favorite places east of Vancouver is
manning Provincial Park. So it'sabout three hours east of
Vancouver. I guess it's like,north of, like, north of, like,
the big Mount Baker area,farther
Craig Romano (47:20):
east, yeah, little farther east where the PCT comes
in, so north of Ross Lake andall that. Yeah,
Taryn (47:26):
right north of North Cascades. Ish, yeah. So it's,
it's a lot, it's over a mountainpass from Vancouver. So you're
kind of getting into thatEastern BC, Eastern Washington
climate, where things are alittle drier, a little less
rain, not, you know, totallyEastern, Eastern where you're
really dry, but it's a greatpark that has a lot of wonderful
(47:48):
campgrounds, like drivingcampgrounds and a lodge if you
want to stay inside, and youcould easily stay there for a
day and day hike. So like, thereare easier hikes, you know, down
in the valley bottom along thelakes. Or there are a couple
great hikes, the heather trailbeing one of them, where you
drive a scenic Road, which Idon't think would be built
(48:09):
today, up into the cell Alpineand you're immediately off the
pavement into alpine meadows.
Beautiful, beautiful, wild flow,wild flowers, sort of late July,
early August, depending justlike unending carpets of
wildflowers, my husband alwayssings the sound of music songs
when we go there. That's
Craig Romano (48:33):
awesome. And I have to vouch for Manning is
also one of my favorite I wentthere the first time in 1989
when I moved here. I've beenhooked. I have hiked almost
every trail there. It is anamazing park. And all the things
you said too, they have greatcampsites. They have cabins
going in the winter time too. Ithas downhill and cross country
skiing. And it's not that it's atwo hour drive from from most of
(48:56):
north of Seattle, where I live.
It's two hours. Seattle, it'sthree hours.
Jennie Flaming (49:00):
No, it's like five or six hours. It's awesome
and super worth it. But it'svery you could drive, you could
drive 110k
Craig Romano (49:08):
on the on the highway over there,
Jennie Flaming (49:11):
but on the way to Manning Park.
Craig Romano (49:16):
Yeah, I'm talking to hope. Okay, yeah, I know, I
know that Jennie didn't want totalk, and we won't talk, but
talk about some of your favoriteplaces in the interior too.
Because again, and it shouldemphasize that with the
highways. Again, once you getover the border, you can get to
Kamloops really quickly. Youknow, the roads are good. I love
(49:38):
rebel Stokes, one of my favoriteareas. What are what is I
Taryn (49:40):
was actually going to say Revelstoke. Revelstoke is my
favorite place. It's awesome.
It's not like like VancouverIsland or the coast. The
Revelstoke is a little mountaintown, originally a railway town
and now kind of a ski town, butin the summer, it's an amazing
place to go for hiking. It's inbetween the Monash and Purcell
(50:01):
mountains, so it's, you kind ofgot to go over a path to getting
there, out of town, which makesit pretty, pretty isolated. But
it's got a really vibrant littledowntown core with the great
farmers market and distilleriesand breweries like they're it's,
I mean, I guess kind ofLeavenworth vibes without the
German thing.
Craig Romano (50:20):
It's not, it's not, yeah, it's actually
authentic in amazing therestaurants and the beer, all
those things. She said, Yeah.
Taryn (50:29):
And then outside of town, you have Mount Revelstoke
National Park, which is anotherplace where you have a road
built up into the Alpine. So,you know, I took, took my mom
for a walk around the littlelake up there, you know, so she
could see the wildflowers andthe views. But then later, you
know, on a different trip, youknow, you can hike all the way
into the backcountry to Eva andJade lakes. There's lots of
(50:50):
there's actually even goodhiking at the ski resort. So the
Mount Revelstoke ski hill, youcan take the chair all the way
to the top, which they keep openin the summer for mountain
bikers, and then hike throughthe Alpine up there. Yeah, lots
of waterfalls near town, if youwant, like sort of lower
elevation hikes, one of myfavorite places to go hiking in,
BC, for sure. And then I alsolove northern BC. It's something
(51:14):
that not unless people knowabout and talk about, once you
get a couple hours north ofVancouver, the traffic thins
out. The roads are pretty goodand well maintained, and you can
drive pretty quickly. Ifanybody's driven to Alaska,
you've driven through a lot ofstuff you should have stopped
at, yes,
Jennie Flaming (51:32):
I'm so glad that you know Taryn, I should have
you come on the Alaska podcastand talk about that, because I'm
always telling people, like,Don't rest your way through, BC
it's amazing. Yeah, yeah.
Craig Romano (51:44):
Like, I drove the DC highway, the casr when it was
mostly dirt. Oh, my God, it wasawful. It's good thing. I had a
rental van, log, the air filterand everything. But unbelievable
territory, Anthony, I gotta getback here. I mean, you have
volcanic plateaus and all kindsof stuff. Yeah. I mean, BC,
(52:06):
again, for our American if youlook at a map, British Columbia
is huge. I mean, how many statesthey're Mike, East Coast states?
How many West Coast states wecan fit into it? It's huge. And
you can spend your entirelifetime seeing only a fraction
of it, yeah,
Taryn (52:21):
like, for reference, it would take like, maybe 10 or 11
hours non stop to drive east towest across BC, and maybe, like,
18 to 20 to drive north tosouth. Maybe even put
Craig Romano (52:36):
us in California from here. I mean, again, yeah,
perspective, yeah, exactly.
Unknown (52:39):
I mean, some of those numbers are because we have a
ton of mountains in the way, soour roads are not so straight.
But yeah,
Jennie Flaming (52:47):
so where should people go in northern BC? Taryn,
Taryn (52:51):
so I really recommend, and it's a bucket list trip for
most people, but Haida Gwaii,formerly known as the Queen
Charlotte island. So people callit the Galapagos of Canada, or
the Galapagos of the NorthPacific. It's a group of islands
off the coast of BC, northernBC, near the town of Prince
Rupert that were like they'revery ecologically different
(53:13):
because of the way thatglaciology or glaciation
happened. They're also reallyinteresting, because half the
population is Haida. The Haidanation and the indigenous
culture there is stronger thananywhere else I've, I've been in
BC so, like, you know, when yougo to Hawaii and people say
aloha to people like, you know,Hawaiians and and non native
(53:34):
Hawaiians, they Aloha. And it'sjust part of the culture to use
a Hawaiian word in Haida Gwaii,everyone says Hawa, which means
thank you. So with the grocerystore, you know, like you pay
for your groceries, andeverybody's the Hawa, have a
good day. Everybody says it. Soit's really, really part of a
cult. The culture there, there'ssome of the, like most classic
(53:54):
Northwest indigenous arthistorically, like all of the
big totem poles that were takenaway to museums. Were stolen
from Haida Gwaii. IncredibleHistory of carvers there. And
you can take boat tours throughthe National Park, wai Hanas
National Park, to see all ofthese village sites that are
(54:15):
still there, that some of theplaces that you can connect most
closely with pre contactindigenous cultural artifacts,
and be guided by contemporaryindigenous people who can tell
you about how their ancestors,recent ancestors, you know,
lived there in the ways thatthey lived, and the rainforest
(54:37):
is beautiful.
Jennie Flaming (54:40):
I I agree. I want to go there. So
Craig Romano (54:43):
it's on my bucket list, too, and
Taryn (54:46):
people also. The one thing I want to say about Haida
Gwaii is that the a lot of thesort of like tourism information
around Haida Gwaii really sellsit as a luxury destination, is
the place that you need to go on$10,000 a week sailing crew.
Shoes or a fishing go to aremote fishing lodge, or stay at
an all inclusive resort that'srun by the Haida nation. And
(55:07):
those are all great ways to, youknow, experience Haida Gwaii,
and in some cases, get a lot oftourism dollars into the pockets
of indigenous people who needit. But you can also absolutely
do Haida Gwaii in a budget. Youcan camp at the provincial park
or other places. You can take abudget Zodiac tour, like I did,
and stay in shared accommodationwith outhouses and shared
(55:30):
bathrooms. So, like, it's, Imean, it's, it's a budget tour
for Haida Gwaii. It's not abudget, you know, like, you're
still paying a lot of money, butyou definitely don't have to be
really wealthy to go to HaidaGwaii. And you know,
Jennie Flaming (55:43):
I'm so glad you said that, Taryn, and when I get
ready to plan my trip, I'm goingto ask you about those options.
I've
Taryn (55:50):
got some great information on my website about
perfect, awesome
Craig Romano (55:55):
and perfect segue to so anyone out there who's not
familiar with Terence work andher website, obviously, she's a
source for British Columbia.
Well,
Jennie Flaming (56:04):
Taryn, thank you so much for for joining us today
and sharing all of thesewonderful places in BC and about
some of the things that hikersand land managers are navigating
in BC, awesome. Well, thank youso much. Taryn,
Taryn (56:22):
yeah, thanks again for having me. It's been great to
talk to you both. Yeah,likewise.
Jennie Flaming (56:29):
Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed the show, Craig
and I would really love it ifyou could show your support, if
you are enjoying the show, byleaving us a rating or a review
and for both that really helpsother people find us. Thank you
so much for your support. You.
Jennie, welcome to the Washington State hiking
podcast. I'm your host. JennieThwing Flaming,
Craig Romano (00:10):
and I'm your co host. Craig Romano, Craig
Jennie Flaming (00:12):
and I are happy to have you here. We provide
practical and timely, seasonalhiking advice for hikers, trail
runners and potential hikers andtrail runners of all skill and
ability levels that is helpful,accurate, fun and inclusive. Hi
everybody. Today, Craig and Ihave Taryn Eaton with us. She is
(00:34):
also a guidebook author. She'swritten several books about
backpacking in British Columbia.
And we're going to talk a littlebit about a variety of things
related to hiking today, andincluding some of her favorite
hikes that are kind of in oursort of area, close to
Washington. So Taryn, welcome tothe Washington State hiking
(00:57):
podcast. Thank you for
Taryn (01:01):
being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. So
Jennie Flaming (01:04):
to start us off, can you just introduce yourself
to everybody, let us know whoyou are, a little bit about your
business and your website andyour writing and how you came
into this type of work. Sure.
Unknown (01:18):
Yeah. So my name is Taryn. I live in Squamish, BC,
which is in between Vancouverand Whistler, if you don't know
it. I grew up in Vancouver, andI've been hiking my whole life
and backpacking for, I guess, alittle over 20 years now. About
10 or so years ago, I started alittle website called happiest
(01:41):
outdoors.ca to document myadventures, and over the years,
it grew into less of a traveldiary and more into a resource
for other hikers to kind ofreplicate the adventures I was
having. And then in 2021 myfirst guidebook was published
(02:02):
backpacking in southwestern BC,which covers the area near
Vancouver. And then last year,in 2024, my second guidebook was
published, which was backpackingon Vancouver Island. And they've
both, they've both done reallywell, which honestly is a bit of
a surprise to me. I wasn't surehow much of a market there'd be
for books that are about likeovernight and multi day
(02:22):
adventures, but people seemreally excited about them, which
I'm really pleased to see.
Craig Romano (02:28):
That's awesome.
And I have your second book,Taryn, as you know, and I used
it last summer, and it isfantastic. So I will have no
problem plugging that today totell, to tell our audience out
here if they're planning onspending any time on Vancouver
Island, the book is a must. Andeven though I know in my review,
it's called backpacking, itdefinitely can be used as a day
(02:50):
hiking guide too. So great,great guide to the island. Yeah,
Taryn (02:55):
that's a good point, that both of the books are are
backpacking books. The Islandbook has some day hikes in it,
but both books you could use forday hikes, because some of the
backpacking trips are quiteshort, so they're beginner trips
for backpackers, but that wouldmake them good day hikes,
Jennie Flaming (03:13):
totally. And I will add to that for folks
listening that your website,which will put links to both
your website and your books inthe show notes. But the your
website is an awesome resourcefor especially for BC hiking
too. So I keep it, yeah, so youknow, today we're talking about,
(03:37):
you know, a little bit about BC,but also about some other bigger
issues that impact all of us ashikers on both sides of the
border and in other states aswell. Craig, since this is
something that you've dealt withquite a bit as well, I'm gonna
let you take the lead in talkingabout gatekeeping. And
Craig Romano (03:58):
I know Taryn and I, we've talked about this in
the past, about, I know we bothhave been, have have dealt with
disgruntled people to say about,about gatekeeping, and it's an
interesting topic, because itkind of at the same time we're
trying to promote use, to getpeople to get out and enjoy our
(04:20):
natural resources and to be goodstewards of the land. And at the
same token, we're watchingunprecedented use. And this is
true both in British Columbiaand Washington, actually,
throughout both nations as well.
So Taryn, yeah, definitely. Iknow the Lower Mainland, in
particular. I know where youare, near garibaldi, and I mean,
the use is going record numberof people hitting the trails.
(04:43):
Are you seeing a lot ofgatekeepers and people that are
upset of what you're doing andif they're trying to keep their
secrets? And if so, how do youaddress those people?
Taryn (04:56):
Yeah, I think that it's really interesting to balance.
As you said. The, you know,getting people outdoors and, you
know, protecting these wildplaces that we love. And I think
that's something that's reallyimportant to remember when we
have this conversation, is thatone of the the real problems of,
you know, like overcrowding ontrails and increased people on
(05:18):
trails, is that what we need todo is shift some of those people
onto other trails, right? So I'msure, you know, I know in the
Seattle area there's a few,like, super popular trails that
everybody knows about, and thesame thing for Vancouver. So,
you know, we need to tell peopleabout there are other trails.
You could use them. They mighthave a different view than the
(05:39):
one you've seen on Instagram,but you might also appreciate
that view. So, you know what?
We're taking people off of, youknow, these really popular
trails, and directing them toless popular trails. The people
who were already on those lesspopular trails get upset because
they now have a differentexperience. Yes. So, you know, I
think that that that'sdefinitely part of it, and
(06:01):
that's that's really importantto recognize that, you know, the
nature belongs to everyone, andbecause, just because you've
been having a particularexperience on a less popular
trail for some period of timedoes not mean that you are
entitled or guaranteed thatexperience in perpetuity. So I
think that's, you know, like,that's really important to note.
The other thing that I thinkcomes up a lot when we talk
(06:22):
about gatekeeping is, you know,people say, Oh, I found this
place because I looked on maps,or I explored, or I was shown to
me by someone local, or someonewho, you know, has used This
place for generations. Thereforeit is somehow mine. This is
special. This is not for you.
(06:46):
And I think that I definitelyunderstand that sentiment when
people are coming from that theyfeel like they worked hard or
they have a legacy associatedwith the place. But the reality
is that that's it can be thatcan be really problematic,
right? Because that, in reallyis tied to a lot of issues
(07:07):
around privilege. And you know,if we think about the tradition
little base of the outdoorrecreation community, you know,
we're white and affluent andmale, and if we're saying that
we're not going to share ourplaces, that's really going to
keep the community in that sameplace. And you know, everybody
(07:29):
needs to start somewhere.
Everyone is new to somewhere, tosome place. And so by sharing
information about places wherewe're widening the scope of
who's welcome in the outdoors,
Craig Romano (07:40):
yeah, absolutely.
And what I'm finding inparticular is, and I had an
incident this fall with the Met,how Valley just nasty, nasty,
nasty, nasty, the attack justlike you. And I'm trying to get
people to use other trails, andI had all these people attack
me. And what's interesting, youknow, I did some sleuthing and
found in almost all cases of thepeople that were attacking me,
(08:00):
we're all transplants to theregion. They didn't even grow up
there, so they couldn't evenpull that. You know, I've been
here generations. Blah, blah,blah, which, again, is worthless
because we're talking aboutpublic lands that, and
especially this in the US. Inthis case, it was a national
forest. That means, I don't careif you're from Florida, Puerto
Rico, New Jersey, California,it's your land. These people who
live there don't have any moreright to have that land. So
(08:23):
there's this incredibleprovincialism and elitism that
that is taking place in some ofthese places, not all places.
And so, yeah, it's incredible.
And and then, you know, again,trying to address people about
that, about sharing, and theydon't even realize, sometimes
they'll wrap it up inenvironmentalism that they want
(08:44):
to protect, but you realizethey're doing all these things
out there, and it really isn't.
And if you're that concerned,are you involved in a lot of
these organizations? Because Iknow you do as well as I we try
to get people to to to give backto to belong to organizations
and to work to protect theselands. So how many of these
gatekeepers? It's just they wanttheir own little private retreat
there. So
Taryn (09:08):
I think you touched on a really important point there,
around how gatekeeping andenvironmentalism gets tied up.
So I've definitely seen a lot ofarguments, especially on social
media recently, about how youknow, really, you know, like,
well minded people will pointout to influencers when they are
(09:31):
sharing the location ofsomewhere that's very
environmentally sensitive, andsay, you know, like, please
don't share this information. Orif you're going to share
information about thisenvironmentally sensitive place,
please include information abouthow to respect it and how to
preserve it. And the peoplewho've shared the information in
the first place are saying like,I don't stand for gatekeepers.
(09:51):
Don't tell me what I can andcan't share. This place belongs
to everyone. And I think thatthat's really interesting and
nuanced line to walk. Yeah, andI so I think that definitely, on
the one hand, if you're going toshare about a place, any place,
whether it's environmentallysensitive or not, you should be
sharing information about how torespect it. You know, how to
(10:12):
preserve it, and how to respectthe people who were there before
you, whether those areindigenous people or local
people. You know, Trailheadparking is an issue, but you
should also look at the contextof the place that you're
sharing. So you know, if the youknow we're talking about public
lands, if the land manager,public land manager, has a
(10:35):
policy about that place, then Ithink that we should follow it
right. If they're asking peoplenot to publicize it because it
contains something veryenvironmentally sensitive or
contains like archeologicalthings that are archeologically
significant, then I think weshouldn't share it. But if the
public body that's in charge ofthat land doesn't have a policy
around it and isn't developingone that says people should stay
(10:58):
away, then I think as long asyou're sharing information
responsibly, then it's, it'sfair game, the idea that we
should, you know, we should notshare things, you know, like, I
don't think that I am thearbiter of what is and isn't a
safe place to share. I thinkthat the land manager of that
(11:20):
body is the one that is thearbiter of that? Yeah,
Craig Romano (11:23):
I agree. And in many cases, especially in the
US, and it's gonna even getworse now is that our lead
agencies are just there'sthey're being eviscerated, as
far as their staff and theirbudget, and in many cases now
it's up to people like you andme to to make sure if we are
going to share these places,that we absolutely talk about
(11:47):
the regulations and thesensitivities. And so even as
someone who writes books andworks on the web and tries to
get people out, this is where Itake issue with influencers and
a lot where I see photos beingshared, it's just, it's a free
for all of people saying, Go outand do this without saying, hey,
you know, there's archeologicalor cultural issues. Your dog
(12:07):
isn't allowed. All these thingsthat are not being shared, and
that's where we're creating alot of problems. So people are
just showing up from that photo,and it's creating all kinds of
issues. And then, of course, Iknow we've talked about this in
the past, too, and this isdefinitely an issue. Yeah, you
know, it always cracks me up inthese areas. I I've been here
for three generations, and I've,you know, what? About the
(12:29):
indigenous people have been heresince the beginning. None of
this three generation stuff,that's a crock. And I'm willing
to believe, maybe, prove mewrong, that many of these people
are pushing back on thegatekeeper and pulling that. You
know, I've lived here my entirelife. You're not. How sensitive
are you to, you know, indigenousissues? Are you allowing, are
you allowing traditional uses ofthe land, or is it just your
(12:50):
little background to go crosscountry skiing or or mountain
climbing? So, yeah, you know, Iknow you're involved in a lot of
especially, you know, my, mynewest book coming out is on
British Columbia, so I've beentrying to stay in tune with all
the reconciliation that's goingon. You guys are light years
ahead of us. And again, I thinkin our current administration
(13:11):
here, you will continue to belight years ahead of us on that
issue. It's kind of share thatwith some of our listeners about
what's going on with BritishColumbia and public lands and
indigenous rights andreconciliation and CO managing,
and take it from there. I mayjust break
Jennie Flaming (13:26):
in and say that was a very nice segue. Craig,
well
Taryn (13:31):
done. Thank you. Yeah. So if you're not familiar with the
sort of situation in BC, youknow, like most of Canada, when
it was settled by Europeans, hadtreaties signed between
indigenous people and thecolonial government, or later
the Canadian government. And youknow, the fairness of those
(13:56):
treaties, of course, isdefinitely suspect. But here in
BC, especially in western BC andcoastal BC, we don't have
treaties. They gave up anddecided that they had one, which
was, you know, not in line withinternational law. So, so the
treaty negotiation kind ofcontinues in BC, you know that
(14:19):
we have, like Washington, a hugenumber of different indigenous
groups in BC, you know, like,because of the terrain and the
sort of ecosystems here, they'relike, some of them are quite
small. So it's a lot ofdifferent nations to manage and
and work with. And ourgovernment here, for the most
(14:39):
part, is working with thesenations on a government to
government relationship, andBritish Columbians in general.
But of course, not all arefairly on board with the idea
that indigenous people deserverespect and. Acknowledgement,
(15:01):
and that the treatment of themhere was was not appropriate.
How we go forward is somethingthat almost no one agrees on.
But the way that it's affectingthe way that it's affecting
outdoor recreation, is fairlyinteresting. So, you know, on a
on a basic level, a lot ofpeople are beginning to
(15:21):
recognize and acknowledge thelands in which they travel on.
They're starting to accept andwelcome indigenous place names
being restored. There's placeswhere indigenous groups are co
managing back country or and,and, you know, provincial parks.
(15:44):
And one of the like, moreinteresting things that I'm kind
of involved with, because I do alot of outdoor advocacy work,
both with friends of garibaldiPark society and the umbrella
organization, the Federation ofmountain clubs of BC, is that
all of our provincial parks,which are basically like state
parks, are, you know, they havemanagement management plans
(16:06):
about what should be happeningin the park, what the policies
are around development andrecreation and hunting and
wildlife protection. And most ofthose management plans are very
out of date. And in order toupdate the management plans, the
that requires under the currentframework, the provincial
(16:26):
government to negotiate with theindigenous nation whose land
that's on. So while we reallywelcome reconciliation and want
indigenous people to have moreof a role in what's happening on
their land. It's also reallyhamstrung our provincial parks
to modernize and develop moretrails, develop more
(16:49):
campgrounds, because they'restuck in a consultation process
with the government andindigenous peoples and
indigenous peoples in BC, likemany in North America, are busy
worrying about getting cleandrinking water and secure
housing for their people, andthey're really less interested
in spending time negotiating onpark management plans unless
(17:09):
there's an economic benefit forthem. And of course, right, I
don't blame them. That's whatneeds to be their priority. So
it's an interesting politicalsituation here, for sure.
Craig Romano (17:21):
If you, and again, to a lot of our American
listeners here, which are themajority, if you go on to the BC
parks website and click onDecember, you're going to see,
in most cases, there's going tobe a reconciliation link there.
And I know in particular theMetro Vancouver Regional
District, and that would be theequivalent to a county here. So
(17:42):
to a county here. So that KingCounty, they, they've seemed to
be been on board with this a lotearlier, in particularly working
with some of the the FirstNations and and CO managing. And
again, I see, I mean, there arenation Well, you know, first of
all, people know that Canada is,I believe, one of the first
(18:02):
nations that actually has anentire territory that's that's
indigenous, run, none of it. AndI just found out there's
actually a Tim Hortons there. Icannot believe that
Unknown (18:15):
expensive. That means must be for anybody that know,
Jennie Flaming (18:18):
my husband Jay, has been to that Tim Hortons
Nunavut, and it's veryexpensive. Yeah, I can't
remember exactly, but, yeah,$10,000
Craig Romano (18:32):
to fly there. So a $20 cup of coffee is
Taryn (18:36):
flying only. There's no roads to Nunavut, so it's a very
expensive place to live, andthey have no agriculture.
Everything is flown in. All thefood is flown in. Yeah.
Jennie Flaming (18:47):
You know, one thing that I think is really
interesting just about thisconversation overall, is that
how how different and alsosimilar things are on both sides
of the border when it comes tothings like this. And I agree
with Craig that Canada, youknow, while having a very
similar history when it comes toindigenous people and
(19:12):
colonization has has moved a lotfurther than than we have, which
is really what's really greatfor us to see, even though I
love that, that you've you'vetalked Taryn about how it's not
just all roses and andbeautiful, like it's still very
challenging, but,
Craig Romano (19:30):
you know, yeah, what's interesting? And then,
and Terry brought this, I didn'teven realize this, you know, my
background is in history, and Istudied Northwest history and
Canadian history, and I didn'teven realize at the time that
correct me, if I'm wrong here,that in British Columbia, none
of the first nations signed atreaty, so it's all unseated. Is
(19:50):
that correct?
Taryn (19:52):
I I believe so I wouldn't confirm that for sure. There
might be some overlap with somepeople in East. Eastern BC or
Northeastern BC? I don't thinkso, though it's, it's very
treaty list here, for sure,
Craig Romano (20:07):
and see, and that's an important issue here
in the States people listening,that even though I think almost
all, all of our our tribes heredid sign treaties, of as we
know, 99.9% of them were brokenby, you know, by by by us, that
that still allows it illegalissues. And so in particularly
(20:29):
in Washington, one of thebiggest issues that that allowed
indigenous people the right toto fish on their under land was
the bolt decision in 1971 Ibelieve, was 771 or 73 and so
that we're able to use the lawin that case. But in BC case,
there was never even a treatysigned. So so it's in a totally
(20:49):
different area now, like yousaid, now you're sitting there,
in essence, kind of creatingsome type of legal framework to
go forward that in itself isvery different, and I believe
that it's different anywhereelse in Canada as well how
Quebec is dealing with theirfirst nations in Ontario and so
forth. So it's a definitelydifferent issue and also, but it
also gives lots of opportunitiesto go forward with. You know,
(21:11):
some of these places should beco managed. And I know we've,
we've thought about it here.
There's, there's a bill inGeorgia to get a to get a new
national park co manage with theMuskie people who were President
Jackson kicked out. But again, Idon't see that happening for at
least four more years. So yeah.
Jennie Flaming (21:34):
So Taryn, um, another thing we wanted to talk
about with you is Leave NoTrace, and I feel like that
really connects to this issue ofgatekeeping. I mean, I feel like
there's a lot of gatekeepingthat happens even with Leave No
Trace, like the idea that peopleshould just know what that
(21:55):
means, and also how that relatesto First Nations and indigenous
people and how they use theland, and how we can learn from
that. So I would love to to haveyou share a little bit about
that, and then we'll move intosome spots on Vancouver Island
(22:16):
and think,
Taryn (22:17):
sure, yeah, so I've been involved with Leave No Trace
Canada since 2006 first as atrainer, and then starting in
2019 as a master educator.
Although they've redone thelabels now I think it's level
one, level two and level three,something like that. I can't
remember. I haven't kept up.
(22:39):
Sounds right? Yeah, I also wason the board of directors for
Leave No Trace Canada for a fewyears. And yeah, leave no trace
Canada is just the Canadianbranch of the Leave No Trace
organization started in America.
And I think that once I firstheard about the concept of Leave
No Trace, I was like, Oh, thisis this. This is it. This is
(23:00):
great. It's a framework that Ican look to to understand the
best way to treat the, you know,these wild places around me. And
you know, like the sevenprinciples are a great way to
guide my actions. And I wasreally excited to learn about it
and to start teaching it. Andthroughout the years, I've
(23:22):
recognized that there are a lotof other perspectives on leave
no trace. And I think that partof the problem is that while a
lot of people have done a greatjob of publicizing what Leave No
Trace is it's by far widelymisunderstood. So a lot of
people, when you say Leave NoTrace to them, have a couple of
(23:47):
reactions that are not what thefounders of Leave No Trace
intended. So one of thosereactions is often, oh, yeah, I
pick up my garbage. I'm good,thanks. I don't need no more
information. And there are sevenprinciples of leave no trace.
There are many more things tolearn, and you don't know what
you don't know is one of thethings that I like to tell
people, you know, you don't youdon't know what you're missing.
(24:08):
The other reaction that I'veheard a lot is, oh, leave no
trace. Well, that's impossible,so why would I bother? I'm gonna
go there. I'm gonna step onthings. I might kill some ants.
So who gives it, you know? Like,yeah, who gives a crap? Like,
you know? Like, why you know?
(24:30):
Like, we are all gonna have animpact. So, like, all this BS
about minimizing my impact,like, yes, or whatever. And I
think that's definitely a prettycynical take on things. And I
think that once you start totalk to people about Leave No
Trace, one of the things that Ilearned when I was learning to
(24:52):
teach Leave No Trace issomething that is referred to as
authority of the resource, whichI really hate that term. Right?
But what it is is basicallylearning to talk to people and
explain the impact on the land.
And so instead of saying, Don'tlitter, you'll get a fine thing.
You know, did you know when youlitter, it harms wildlife, it
looks ugly, you know, all ofthese things explaining what
(25:18):
happens. You know, like, youknow, put your dog on a leash,
you'll get a fine. Instead ofsaying, Did you know that
wildlife are disturbed byanimals, and there are
endangered species here thatyou're scaring away? Or what
resonates more with dog owners?
Did you know there are dangerousanimals here, that bulb hurt
your precious fur baby?
Jennie Flaming (25:38):
Yes, I'm a dog owner, and I have to say, you
know, that before I had a dog ii was very much like, I've
always been really bothered byoff leash dogs on trails, and
this is something we have to doa whole other episode about. And
when I became a dog owner, I waslike, am I gonna change? And if
(26:03):
anything, I feel like I feelmore that way now that I have a
dog, and I know I'm in theminority of dog owners there.
But you know, when I was a kid,I was afraid of dogs. I know
that culturally, it not everyculture embraces dogs in the as
snugly family members in the waythat you know, kind of my
(26:27):
background does. And, yeah, sojust, we'll talk more about that
another time. But, yeah, I'mglad
Taryn (26:34):
that dogs are one. Dogs are really tricky. And I think
that the way that, the otherthing that I think that's really
interesting, that I haven'treally seen that much discussion
about, is the way that dogs, theposition of dogs in the North
American family, has changed inthe last generation or two. You
know, they were a possession,and they lived outdoors, and now
(26:59):
they are absolutely a familymember. And some people,
including my sister, would arguethat they have the same rights
as people. So, you know, like, Ithink, like, It's just we've
undergone this huge shift, andnot everyone is a dog owner. So
they haven't, they don't feelthe same way. They're still back
at a dog as a possession. Andyou should, you know, treat it
(27:21):
as such, maybe not, you know,leave it in the yard all night.
But you know, it doesn't get tohave as much free will and
choices as
Jennie Flaming (27:28):
a human Yeah.
Yeah. Cool. Okay. Um, well,let's transition to talking a
little bit about some of yourfavorite hikes, Terran, since we
have you here. So let's startwith Vancouver Island. I mean,
man, if you're listening to thisWashingtonians and you have a
(27:51):
bend of Vancouver Island, yougotta go. It's awesome.
Taryn (27:57):
And especially if you're like in the sort of like
Seattle, Puget Sound area. It'svery easy.
Craig Romano (28:02):
You know, I live, I live an hour from the border,
and getting to Vancouver Islandis not, is not difficult at all,
especially BC Ferries with greatreservation system and
everything else. So get outthere. People go,
Taryn (28:15):
yes. You can also go from Port Angeles. That's an option
too, absolutely. Yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah. So I guess favorite
hikes on Vancouver Island, Ihaving just talked about how
easy Vancouver Island was to getto my favorite part of Vancouver
Island is northern VancouverIsland, which is an eight hour
(28:35):
drive from Southern VancouverIsland. So I've now added a ton
of travel time for youWashingtonians, and it is for me
too, it's an all day trek to getthere, but I love the North
Island, so kind of a like, maybea similar vibe, a little bit to
the Olympic coast in that on theNorth Island, so lots of
(28:56):
beautiful rainforest andbeaches, but definitely a
different, a little bitdifferent feel. So Cape Scott,
which is the very northern tipof Vancouver Island, has some
really interesting history, bothboth settler history and
indigenous history in the like1800s late 1800s and early 1900s
(29:20):
a bunch of Danes tried to makefarms up there. And then during
World War Two, there were somemilitary installations. So
there's lots of kind ofinteresting historical stuff
that you can poke around therein the forest and see. And then,
of course, there are thebeautiful beaches. And then
there's lots of industry,interesting indigenous history
(29:41):
up there. The you know, people,of course, have been living
there since, as they say, timeimmemorial. So there are lots of
lots of things to see, if weknow where to look them, and
lots lots of history. Forexample, there's a village in
Cape Scott Park, a village site.
And. Um, that was actuallyshelled by the British during
colonial times. There wasdispute about someone who had
(30:05):
allegedly murdered a Britishperson, and the British sent the
Navy, which took years to getthere by the time everybody had
forgotten about it, and thenthey shelled the village. So
there's lots of, like, reallywacky, interesting, I guess they
wouldn't call it wacky theydied, but, like, kind of, really
interesting historical anomaliesup there.
Craig Romano (30:28):
Yeah, and it's, it's funny, you mentioned that
in your book, you have sidebarson that too. And again, you
could talk about VancouverIsland. A lot of people had no
idea that the Nuka sound was amajor crisis that almost brought
all these major powers togetherfor war. And if you look at
where NUCCA is today, and you'relike, what is up with that? So I
(30:49):
think people are going toexactly be amazed at some of the
history. One of the thingsSarah, you told me about when we
discussed last in Vancouver,last, last winter that
absolutely amazed me. And thisties into Jennie and I just did
a segment on incredible wildlifeencounters we've had. So this is
(31:09):
either going to scare people orattract them. Tell talk about
that wolf encounter again onVancouver Island. That just
blows me away.
Taryn (31:16):
Yeah. So the wolf population in BC, or coastal BC,
like in a lot of the US wasreally decimated by hunting and
bounties for predators, and it'scoming back. And so there are
places, you know, like like thecape Scott area at the northern
tip of Vancouver Island, orTofino on the West Coast, which
(31:38):
is a popular touristdestination, that are seeing
rebounding wolf populations. Butthese wolves are really
interesting because they're youmight have seen there's a
Netflix, Netflix documentary afew years ago. They're called
Sea Wolves, so they're agenetically distinct population.
They swim a lot, they eat a lotof marine life, and they they
(32:00):
live on the beaches and in therain forests. And so we were
hiking on nook Island, which isoff the west coast of Vancouver
Island, so a pretty remote placeto get there by a float plane or
water taxi. Although it's a it'sa, you know, fairly popular, I
mean, not super popular, butit's a well known backpacking
(32:20):
destination, the maucha mujanation manages the trail, and
are actually looking actively topromote it for tourism, to help
their their nation have some Ecotourism. But at the time that I
hiked it, it was just startingto be popular, so it was not
very busy. And one night, wewere doing our dishes on the
beach, and, you know, the sunwas just going down, there was a
(32:46):
little bit of light left in thesky, and we noticed there were
some animals on the beach, so weretreated back up the short hill
from the water to our campfire,and watched as half a dozen
wolves appeared, and then more,and then more. And I think in
the end, there were probablyabout 20 wolves, and the older,
(33:09):
larger males came quite close tous to see what we were. They
were very curious, and weshouted and threw rocks, and
they stayed right at the edge ofthe farthest place we could
throw rocks. And the youngerwolves played in the creek,
splashing each other andwrestling, and, you know, it
seemed like hours later, butprobably was five minutes. They
(33:30):
all trotted off and went downthe beach past us and went
wherever they went, and we wentto sleep, kind of wondering
what, what we should be doing ifwe were safe, but we didn't have
any further incidents. And thenat the end of the hike, we
walked into yuquot, which wasformerly a very large village
(33:51):
and is now seasonally home to afew people from the mawa chat
Bucha let nation. And we toldthem about our our encounter
with these wolves, and they saidthat's the most wolves they've
ever heard of. Anybody seeing itonce. So I think it must have
several packs together meeting.
For some reason, it wasdefinitely a lifetime highlight
for me. I love
Jennie Flaming (34:13):
that, and I love that you're like and then we
went to sleep. I know that'ssuch a relatable backpacking
story. This like an animalencounter that was awesome. Now
it's bedtime,
Taryn (34:30):
and I thought, I thought it would have have trouble
sleeping, but I think I justadrenaline crashed and just
passed out. Oh, we did see onewolf in the morning too.
Jennie Flaming (34:40):
Of course you did, and you're like, Okay, this
is fine.
Craig Romano (34:43):
Amazing story. It beats it beats all my wildlife
encounters. Let me tell you itdid. That's incredible.
Jennie Flaming (34:49):
So um, Taryn, what else, anything else for
Vancouver Island that you wantto share as a highlight? Yeah, I
Taryn (34:57):
mean, I think that Vancouver Island gets a lot of
press for their COVID. Hiking,and the coastal hiking is
beautiful and incredible, but Ithink that a lot of people don't
recognize that Vancouver Islandhas beautiful Alpine hiking as
well. So the center of theisland is Strathcona Provincial
Park. It's the oldest ProvincialPark in BC, and the mountains
(35:17):
are not exceptionally tall, butthey're the tallest ones on the
island. And the terrain in thereis really beautiful and rugged.
It's old, like ancient seafloor. So it's kind of this
interesting, weathered volcanicrock, you know, the sort of
classic pocket glaciers, scrubbytrees, pointy rocks situation.
(35:38):
But because you're in the middleof the island. Once you get up
there, the views are incredible.
Like you can get up and see theocean on both sides. So like the
Mount Washington area, which isa ski hill, is a great place to
explore, because you can driveall the way up thanks to that
Ski Hill Road, and then walkthrough the sub alpine meadows
and climb Mount Albert Edward,which is the sixth tallest
mountain on the on the island,and there's backcountry camping
(36:02):
there, some of which is quiteclose to the to the trailhead.
So really accessible forbeginners, really beautiful
place to explore.
Craig Romano (36:11):
You just I, and I was just that I've been to
Strathcona a couple of times.
It's wonderful. Matter of fact,it's the second place I ever
took my wife camping and hiking,and she got so hooked on the
back country. And then lastsummer, using your book, I went
to the forbidden plateau, whichis in the Strathcona. And again,
one of the amazing things, and Ijust wrote a feature on this for
Northwest travel magazine. Somaybe there's going to be some
(36:33):
more Americans up there this,this coming summer, the
accessibility that, as you said,you get this beautiful paved
road coming out of Comox Valleythat gets you up to where the
ski the ski areas you parkthere. You're already in the sub
Alpine. Beautiful trails,boardwalks. You've got 2020,
lakes out there, and thesewonderful back, back, back
country areas, platforms you cancamp. So again, your beginner
(36:56):
backpacker is absolutely it's areally well run part. It's
beautiful. And again, if peopleare unaware, it's it's over a
half million acres. I think it'sup to 600,000 it's huge. It's
the largest, largest park on theisland. And as Terence, it's the
oldest, the oldest of BC,amazing place.
Jennie Flaming (37:16):
Cool. Okay, so, Taryn, let's move over to the
mainland. Tell us about some ofyour favorite hikes over there.
Yeah.
Taryn (37:28):
So I live in Squamish, and one of the reasons we moved
here is because it's adjacent tomy favorite park, Garibaldi
Provincial Park, which is thesecond oldest Provincial Park in
BC. And Garibaldi is, I thinkif, if history had been
different, it would have been anational park like the the sort
(37:50):
of like scenery level is, isNational Park worthy? So huge
volcano, dormant volcano, MountGaribaldi and sky in the
Squamish language, and thengiant lava dammed lake below it,
glaciers. That's sort of thecore of the park. But then
(38:10):
there's lots of other areas ofthe park as well, accessed via
five different trail heads. Theentire park is back country.
There's there's no frontcountry, anything you have to
hike into the park at theshortest about three and a half
kilometers to get to anythinggood, but usually longer. So
(38:30):
Garibaldi Lake, with as a basecamp for backpacking, with day
hikes to the Black Tusk, whichis a big volcanic plug, or
panorama Ridge, which has anincredible view of the lake, are
sort of a classic trip. Butother parts of the park, like
elfin lakes, which is kind of aridge walk along an old road
(38:53):
with beautiful views down to theSquamish Valley, where I live on
one side, and the glaciers, themount quam ice field on the
other. And then you can do somehikes and scrambles past there
also great. But the you know,incredible scenery and proximity
to Vancouver has a drawback,which is that it's a very, very
(39:13):
popular and very busy Park. Soin all year round, you need
reservations to camp in the backcountry, which you can get
online four months to the datebefore your trip. And in the
summer, you also need a parkingpass to park at the trailheads,
and you have to reserve thoseonline two days before your trip
(39:34):
in the morning. And those arequite hard to get, especially on
weekends. So it's definitely,you know, a place where we're
seeing increased use andincreased pressure, but it's
also a place where we're reallybutting up against, you know,
(39:55):
like we talked about earliergovernment not having. Enough
Monday funding or a mandate todo things. So there are lots of
opportunities in the park toexpand things and and have more
access, or, you know, differentaccess. But unfortunately, BC
(40:16):
parks just doesn't have themanpower, the people power to
make that happen. So we're stuckwith the permit system for use
at the moment. That's
Craig Romano (40:28):
a good point you made, too. And garibal is
amazing. I've been to a lot ofthose places. You talked about
incredible place, about therestrictions, and if you know,
if you look at a map of theLower Mainland, you'll see these
huge provincial parks,garibaldi, golden ears, the pine
cone, Burke, huge. But then whenyou look at how much of it is
(40:49):
actually accessible with a road,it's, in some cases it, it's
less than a couple of percentum. And so again, as the Greater
Vancouver area has exploded, youknow, three and a half, 4
million people, and then peoplecoming from all over. Is there
room to develop more punching ina road, farther, more campsites,
(41:11):
more trails? Or do we just leaveit wild to some of these areas
and then just have the frontcountry stuff, incredibly,
increasingly get so, so crowded,so popular again, because all
those places you talk about itmoved here in 1989 I would I
went to Garibaldi on a whim. Icould just go up there and camp
and and same thing with goldenairs. And now everything is
(41:32):
permanent. We're having thesame, same issues here in
Washington and Oregon andCalifornia. You would think
there'd be a move to, again,increase some accessibility, you
know, barring going intosensitive lands and such. But
there, I think there's plenty ofareas, especially a lot of the
cutover areas, that are comingback at second, third growth
forest. Yeah, it's gonna, it'sgonna involve one. I mean, the
(41:55):
people are asking for it, butthe government has got to back
this and get behind this. Andwhat's it going to take to do
that we're not keeping up. Yeah.
Taryn (42:05):
I mean, I think that's a great point, and it's really
difficult. I think that the twomain things that are keeping
well, the three main things thatare keeping this from happening,
one is funding. So successiveprovincial governments in BC
have cut funding to BC parks,and we have a government in
power now that theoreticallywould be quite welcoming to
(42:29):
increasing funding to BC parks,but there are way more pressing
issues, right? We have an opioidcrisis. We have a housing
crisis, you know, like, thoseare absolutely first priority,
and BC parks doesn't even reallyshow up in in budget documents.
Much lately, it's not a prioritywhen new governments come in and
just, you know, announce theirnew plans. The second, the
(42:53):
second hurdle is that the BCparks ministry and management is
very conservation minded. And,you know, I guess rightly so. So
you know, Garibaldi Park and theparks close to BC, hold
endangered populations ofgrizzly bears and mountain
goats. Unlike your Washingtonmountain goats, ours are very
(43:13):
shy. I don't know what's goingon in Washington, especially
Eastern Washington, where yourgoats are just like coming up to
people, yeah, scary. Ours, oursare super shy. I don't know why.
Like, they see a helicopter, andthen they, like, leave an area
forever, which is concerning. Soa lot of the studies around
(43:36):
expanding recreationopportunities have been stymied
by goat, especially goat matingand birthing and, you know,
grounds, you know, that kind ofthing. And then the last one is,
one we've already discussed, isthat in order to put in anything
new, you need to negotiatenation to nation with indigenous
(43:56):
governments. And there, it's nota priority for them. And they
also, you know, have their ownthings they'd like to see in
parks. You know, they havetraditional hunting grounds they
haven't been able to access foryears. They have, you know,
sensitive cultural sites thatthey want protected, that they
don't want publicized. There'slots and lots of factors. So I
(44:18):
think it's really politicallycomplicated. And there are
outside of parks. There are, youknow, there has been some new
trail building in the Sea to Skycorridor between Vancouver and
Whistler, but not much. And weneed more.
Craig Romano (44:34):
What I'm seeing in in BC, in particular Vancouver,
and the same thing that'shappening here, I think our
glory days of the back country,and especially in the States,
when we had presidents likeRoosevelt in both of them, and
matter of fact, I always joke,nobody is in my lifetime. Nobody
has ever run for presidentsaying I'm going to make our
(44:55):
national park system greatagain. I would love that person
has my vote. Thank you. It'sjust not a priority, like you
said. But on the positive side,what I'm seeing is this
incredible increase of urbantrails and rail trails. And
again, I just wrote a book on onthe Greater Vancouver, on the
Metro Vancouver, regionaldistricts, urban trails. It
(45:16):
blows me away. It's anincredible trail system. It has
expanded so much so we can makethe argument too, that again,
for equity, you know, for beingtrails, being equitable and
everything we're building thetrails close to where the people
live. Because it requires, youknow, it requires some money to
get out to the Rockies and intothe interior and all these
(45:36):
places where where people live.
You can get on a get on a bus orthe sky train and have these
beautiful park systems. So maybethat, you know, maybe that seems
to be where we're emphasizing alot of our our trail building
right now. And of course,there's other issues too. You
deal with climate issues too,trying to get people you know,
to bike to work and and push alot of these things. So I think,
I think we can celebrate that,that we're making some amazing
(46:00):
progress. And even in placeslike in the Okanagan, Penticton,
some of those areas that theurban trail systems that are
growing there is incredibleplaces you wouldn't expect it.
So yeah,
Taryn (46:12):
and I think that is a function of funding. So Metro
Vancouver parks, which maintainsa lot of parks, a little bit
more like not wilderness parks,but wilderness adjacent parks in
the Vancouver area, theiroverall budget is larger than Bc
parks. BC parks manages 1000parks. Much of Vancouver has, I
think, two dozen.
Craig Romano (46:33):
It's the same thing the King County park
system, same which is Seattle.
And the King County Park Systemrivals a lot of our state parks.
They have an amazing park systemand a trail system. Yeah,
exactly, I guess you go wherethe money and where the people
are, yeah.
Jennie Flaming (46:48):
So Taryn, are there any other like, trails or
areas for hiking you want tohighlight? Obviously, like BC is
amazing, and there's like,unending amazing hikes. But are
there any others that you wantto call out today? Yeah.
Taryn (47:03):
So one of my favorite places east of Vancouver is
manning Provincial Park. So it'sabout three hours east of
Vancouver. I guess it's like,north of, like, north of, like,
the big Mount Baker area,farther
Craig Romano (47:20):
east, yeah, little farther east where the PCT comes
in, so north of Ross Lake andall that. Yeah,
Taryn (47:26):
right north of North Cascades. Ish, yeah. So it's,
it's a lot, it's over a mountainpass from Vancouver. So you're
kind of getting into thatEastern BC, Eastern Washington
climate, where things are alittle drier, a little less
rain, not, you know, totallyEastern, Eastern where you're
really dry, but it's a greatpark that has a lot of wonderful
(47:48):
campgrounds, like drivingcampgrounds and a lodge if you
want to stay inside, and youcould easily stay there for a
day and day hike. So like, thereare easier hikes, you know, down
in the valley bottom along thelakes. Or there are a couple
great hikes, the heather trailbeing one of them, where you
drive a scenic Road, which Idon't think would be built
(48:09):
today, up into the cell Alpineand you're immediately off the
pavement into alpine meadows.
Beautiful, beautiful, wild flow,wild flowers, sort of late July,
early August, depending justlike unending carpets of
wildflowers, my husband alwayssings the sound of music songs
when we go there. That's
Craig Romano (48:33):
awesome. And I have to vouch for Manning is
also one of my favorite I wentthere the first time in 1989
when I moved here. I've beenhooked. I have hiked almost
every trail there. It is anamazing park. And all the things
you said too, they have greatcampsites. They have cabins
going in the winter time too. Ithas downhill and cross country
skiing. And it's not that it's atwo hour drive from from most of
(48:56):
north of Seattle, where I live.
It's two hours. Seattle, it'sthree hours.
Jennie Flaming (49:00):
No, it's like five or six hours. It's awesome
and super worth it. But it'svery you could drive, you could
drive 110k
Craig Romano (49:08):
on the on the highway over there,
Jennie Flaming (49:11):
but on the way to Manning Park.
Craig Romano (49:16):
Yeah, I'm talking to hope. Okay, yeah, I know, I
know that Jennie didn't want totalk, and we won't talk, but
talk about some of your favoriteplaces in the interior too.
Because again, and it shouldemphasize that with the
highways. Again, once you getover the border, you can get to
Kamloops really quickly. Youknow, the roads are good. I love
(49:38):
rebel Stokes, one of my favoriteareas. What are what is I
Taryn (49:40):
was actually going to say Revelstoke. Revelstoke is my
favorite place. It's awesome.
It's not like like VancouverIsland or the coast. The
Revelstoke is a little mountaintown, originally a railway town
and now kind of a ski town, butin the summer, it's an amazing
place to go for hiking. It's inbetween the Monash and Purcell
(50:01):
mountains, so it's, you kind ofgot to go over a path to getting
there, out of town, which makesit pretty, pretty isolated. But
it's got a really vibrant littledowntown core with the great
farmers market and distilleriesand breweries like they're it's,
I mean, I guess kind ofLeavenworth vibes without the
German thing.
Craig Romano (50:20):
It's not, it's not, yeah, it's actually
authentic in amazing therestaurants and the beer, all
those things. She said, Yeah.
Taryn (50:29):
And then outside of town, you have Mount Revelstoke
National Park, which is anotherplace where you have a road
built up into the Alpine. So,you know, I took, took my mom
for a walk around the littlelake up there, you know, so she
could see the wildflowers andthe views. But then later, you
know, on a different trip, youknow, you can hike all the way
into the backcountry to Eva andJade lakes. There's lots of
(50:50):
there's actually even goodhiking at the ski resort. So the
Mount Revelstoke ski hill, youcan take the chair all the way
to the top, which they keep openin the summer for mountain
bikers, and then hike throughthe Alpine up there. Yeah, lots
of waterfalls near town, if youwant, like sort of lower
elevation hikes, one of myfavorite places to go hiking in,
BC, for sure. And then I alsolove northern BC. It's something
(51:14):
that not unless people knowabout and talk about, once you
get a couple hours north ofVancouver, the traffic thins
out. The roads are pretty goodand well maintained, and you can
drive pretty quickly. Ifanybody's driven to Alaska,
you've driven through a lot ofstuff you should have stopped
at, yes,
Jennie Flaming (51:32):
I'm so glad that you know Taryn, I should have
you come on the Alaska podcastand talk about that, because I'm
always telling people, like,Don't rest your way through, BC
it's amazing. Yeah, yeah.
Craig Romano (51:44):
Like, I drove the DC highway, the casr when it was
mostly dirt. Oh, my God, it wasawful. It's good thing. I had a
rental van, log, the air filterand everything. But unbelievable
territory, Anthony, I gotta getback here. I mean, you have
volcanic plateaus and all kindsof stuff. Yeah. I mean, BC,
(52:06):
again, for our American if youlook at a map, British Columbia
is huge. I mean, how many statesthey're Mike, East Coast states?
How many West Coast states wecan fit into it? It's huge. And
you can spend your entirelifetime seeing only a fraction
of it, yeah,
Taryn (52:21):
like, for reference, it would take like, maybe 10 or 11
hours non stop to drive east towest across BC, and maybe, like,
18 to 20 to drive north tosouth. Maybe even put
Craig Romano (52:36):
us in California from here. I mean, again, yeah,
perspective, yeah, exactly.
Unknown (52:39):
I mean, some of those numbers are because we have a
ton of mountains in the way, soour roads are not so straight.
But yeah,
Jennie Flaming (52:47):
so where should people go in northern BC? Taryn,
Taryn (52:51):
so I really recommend, and it's a bucket list trip for
most people, but Haida Gwaii,formerly known as the Queen
Charlotte island. So people callit the Galapagos of Canada, or
the Galapagos of the NorthPacific. It's a group of islands
off the coast of BC, northernBC, near the town of Prince
Rupert that were like they'revery ecologically different
(53:13):
because of the way thatglaciology or glaciation
happened. They're also reallyinteresting, because half the
population is Haida. The Haidanation and the indigenous
culture there is stronger thananywhere else I've, I've been in
BC so, like, you know, when yougo to Hawaii and people say
aloha to people like, you know,Hawaiians and and non native
(53:34):
Hawaiians, they Aloha. And it'sjust part of the culture to use
a Hawaiian word in Haida Gwaii,everyone says Hawa, which means
thank you. So with the grocerystore, you know, like you pay
for your groceries, andeverybody's the Hawa, have a
good day. Everybody says it. Soit's really, really part of a
cult. The culture there, there'ssome of the, like most classic
(53:54):
Northwest indigenous arthistorically, like all of the
big totem poles that were takenaway to museums. Were stolen
from Haida Gwaii. IncredibleHistory of carvers there. And
you can take boat tours throughthe National Park, wai Hanas
National Park, to see all ofthese village sites that are
(54:15):
still there, that some of theplaces that you can connect most
closely with pre contactindigenous cultural artifacts,
and be guided by contemporaryindigenous people who can tell
you about how their ancestors,recent ancestors, you know,
lived there in the ways thatthey lived, and the rainforest
(54:37):
is beautiful.
Jennie Flaming (54:40):
I I agree. I want to go there. So
Craig Romano (54:43):
it's on my bucket list, too, and
Taryn (54:46):
people also. The one thing I want to say about Haida
Gwaii is that the a lot of thesort of like tourism information
around Haida Gwaii really sellsit as a luxury destination, is
the place that you need to go on$10,000 a week sailing crew.
Shoes or a fishing go to aremote fishing lodge, or stay at
an all inclusive resort that'srun by the Haida nation. And
(55:07):
those are all great ways to, youknow, experience Haida Gwaii,
and in some cases, get a lot oftourism dollars into the pockets
of indigenous people who needit. But you can also absolutely
do Haida Gwaii in a budget. Youcan camp at the provincial park
or other places. You can take abudget Zodiac tour, like I did,
and stay in shared accommodationwith outhouses and shared
(55:30):
bathrooms. So, like, it's, Imean, it's, it's a budget tour
for Haida Gwaii. It's not abudget, you know, like, you're
still paying a lot of money, butyou definitely don't have to be
really wealthy to go to HaidaGwaii. And you know,
Jennie Flaming (55:43):
I'm so glad you said that, Taryn, and when I get
ready to plan my trip, I'm goingto ask you about those options.
I've
Taryn (55:50):
got some great information on my website about
perfect, awesome
Craig Romano (55:55):
and perfect segue to so anyone out there who's not
familiar with Terence work andher website, obviously, she's a
source for British Columbia.
Well,
Jennie Flaming (56:04):
Taryn, thank you so much for for joining us today
and sharing all of thesewonderful places in BC and about
some of the things that hikersand land managers are navigating
in BC, awesome. Well, thank youso much. Taryn,
Taryn (56:22):
yeah, thanks again for having me. It's been great to
talk to you both. Yeah,likewise.
Jennie Flaming (56:29):
Hey everyone. I hope you enjoyed the show, Craig
and I would really love it ifyou could show your support, if
you are enjoying the show, byleaving us a rating or a review
and for both that really helpsother people find us. Thank you
so much for your support. You.
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