June 26, 2025 • 23 mins
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Jennie and Craig discuss strategies and tools for finding your own hike and getting away from crowds.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennie Flaming (00:00):
Jennie, welcome to the Washington State hiking
(00:07):
podcast. I'm your host. JennieThwing Flaming,
Craig Romano (00:10):
and I'm your co host, Craig Romano, Craig
Jennie Flaming (00:12):
and I are happy to have you here. We provide
practical and timely, seasonalhiking advice for hikers, trail
runners and potential hikers andtrail runners of all skill and
ability levels that is helpful,accurate, fun and inclusive.
Craig Romano (00:32):
Hey, Craig, how's it going? Jennie, excellent.
Beautiful day out today. Thesunshine. I love this time of
year. The days are maximumdaylight right now, it's just my
favorite time. I say this abouteverything. It's my favorite
time. Like,
Jennie Flaming (00:49):
I say that a lot too. If people are
Craig Romano (00:51):
gonna think we're lying all the time, right?
Anybody who's ever, ever youknow, comedating my
presentations, right? Look, it'slike one of the continuous
things I say all the time. Isthis one of my favorites. I
would be wonderful if I had 12children, because I could never
be accused of having onefavorite. Yes, but I only have
one child, and he is myfavorite. So
Jennie Flaming (01:10):
you're kind of wasting that on being a parent
of an only child. Oh, that'shilarious. Okay. Well, it is
officially summer now, and so weknow that this means this the
next couple months are when ourhiking trails, especially the
most popular ones that you wouldsee on every like top 10 hikes
(01:31):
in Washington, um, are reallygoing to be slammed with people.
So today we're talking about howto help people find kind of
their own hike and, like, lookaround at what's out there and
just make some decisions about aplace to go that maybe will be
(01:53):
pretty far away from crowds. SoI know this is something both
you and I do. So what's youradvice about this
Craig Romano (02:00):
crowd? We're gonna say, with that said, the first
thing I want everybody out thereto do so that turn off Instagram
right now. Turn it off for thismonth. No, turn it off. You're
not going to look at Instagram.
Okay, yeah, um, so
Jennie Flaming (02:14):
because, just a obvious pro tip, if it's on
everybody's like, top 10 hikesthing, then it's going to be
crowded. If you like Google top10 hikes of in Washington and
get a bunch of whatever, thoseare going to be crowded. So,
yes, get away from that. Listento us instead.
Craig Romano (02:33):
No, I don't want to, you know, toot my own horn
here, because I am on Instagramas well as Jay. Yes, I, I tend
to post places that you mightnot have heard. So me too. You
can look at our Instagram. Yes,it's been nobody else's,
especially the ones that arebeing you know, they're being
paid to promote these popularplaces, which we are not. Yeah.
(02:55):
Anyhow, I'm old school. I'vebeen hiking for a long time,
well before there was any suchthing as the internet, and even
though I've embraced all thelatest gizmos and gadgets and
everything when it comes tofinding my own hike, I'm still
old school. Now, first of all,in the state of Washington, I
It's hard for me to find my ownhigh because I've written 27
(03:17):
books and I've found all thehikes. But yes, but I do travel
very frequently outside thearea, and I hike. And this may
come to a shock to a lot ofpeople, especially to the
younger sect. I don't go to alltrails. I i Lots of times. First
of all, like I spend a lot oftime in California, I look for
someone like me. I look for theguidebook author down there, who
(03:39):
really knows the material. Who'swritten a lot, knows the area's
been around for a while. I dothat a lot. But you know, even
before that, when I'm travelingplaces, what I love to do. And
again, this is becoming a lostart, with a lot of younger
people reading a map. Because,you know, Google Maps is
punching everything. I get mapswherever I go when I travel and
(04:01):
I it's like, it's likeChristmas. I open up a map, it's
like a gift. I open that thingup, put it on the table, and I
just look at it. And thingsstart popping up at me, state
parks, national parks, railtrip, and whatever picks my
interest on there, like, Ooh,that sounds kind of cool,
especially the ones that are farfrom the cities and kind of the
obscure places, and then I startdoing my research. And so this
(04:23):
is where the internet comes in.
I will go to the state park ofthat area, you know, the Kansas
Department of Parks, and findout what's there, you know, or
same thing for a rail trail. Andso I'm looking at the official
sources. I'm not looking for thecrowd based stuff that just
which is going to tell meanything. I'm looking for that.
And then if I want to go fartherand that look more, I'll seek
(04:43):
out if there's clubs, is there aclub in this area that that has
so here in Washington, we havegreat resources. We have the
Washington Trails Association.
So I look for equivalents likethat when I'm traveling to get
because I want reliableinformation. The trouble with.
With, with all trails and a lotof these other web based map
(05:06):
apps and everything, they arecrowdsource, and they're not
being monitored. And this is thething. So even though there's
good information on there,there's still a lot of garbage
on there. And if you're new toan area, you're not going to
know the difference. And so ifyou're new to hiking, you should
definitely go to reliablesources where all trails would
make sense. After you go throughall your reliable sources, now
(05:28):
you're ready to hit that maybelet's see if somebody's been on
this trail in the last couple ofweeks to see what the conditions
are like. That's where I'd findthat application good, but I
would never use it. I agree.
Primary Source never, ever usethat's my primary
Jennie Flaming (05:41):
source. Yeah.
And in Washington State, the WTAtrail or w the Washington Trails
Association trip reports areeven better. But, you know, not
every state has that, so I agreewith you about that current
Craig Romano (05:55):
condition. The biggest difference between the
WTA and their database and a lotof these web based mapping
there's a lot of them out there.
Is that WTA is actually anorganization that's devoted to
hikers. It's all about hikers,whereas a lot of these other
organizations, this is a bunchof techies just with their
algorithms making money. They'renot they're probably some
exceptions in there. So hear meout. But the thing is, a lot of
(06:18):
it is just make money, throw abunch of trails up there, get
people hooked, have them, havethem put their own data. So we
don't have to do that, get thealgorithms going in there and
just let it fly without payingattention. And that's why you're
going to have, you're going tohave trails showing up on these
things that aren't official,they're routes. They're getting
all kinds of trouble with that,because they could be
trespassing. And I've seen it.
(06:40):
It's crazy where a group likeWTA and your official websites
with clubs and park sites arenot going to have that on there.
They're going to have theofficial and they're also going
to have the official informationand the rules what needs to be
done. You're going to see thingson a lot of these dogs where
they shouldn't be. I mean, justrule breaking mountain, but
(07:00):
because there's no oversight toit, it's just let it go and let
the algorithms do their trick.
So that's my biggest problemwith those sites.
Jennie Flaming (07:09):
Yeah, I agree with you about that. Okay, well,
those are all really great tips.
Any others before I share a fewof mine, which are not
surprisingly, pretty similar.
Craig Romano (07:19):
Yeah, the other thing too, again, and this is
the other thing, which I findfascinating, again, from the old
school. And I it just blows meaway. When I'll be on on the web
and looking and people will justpop up. I'm coming out to
Washington for a week. Tell mewhere I should hike this. This
cracks me up. It's like I'mgoing to New York. Tell me how
(07:39):
to dress for this affair. Youhave no idea who I am, what I
what, and so I see the sametime, and then I watch people
chime in from like, the mostridiculous, oh, just do this
easy walk to the most crazy, youknow, rope. And not even knowing
what people are, know yourselfwhat you want in your own
interest, and realize that abunch of strangers are only
going to chime in about whatinterests them, yeah, um, and so
(08:03):
I see this stuff, and plus halfthe time, more than the majority
of time, they're going to tellyou to go to the most popular,
crowded places. Again, likeeverybody else, that's them,
yeah? So stop doing that.
That's, you know, the thing is,for me, half of the journey. And
again, I love, you know, I'm ahistory geek, you know, from I
love doing my own research,discovery. That sense of
discovery half the fun to mewhen I go to a new place is
(08:25):
finding it. I those maps, thosebooks, and then getting there
without seeing pictures on theinternet, without people telling
me how great it is, hitting himlike, Oh, my God, this place is
incredible. I can't even imagineit was like this. Um, so I know
my interests. I love, I love oldgrowth forests. I love the
obscure. Give me the mostobscure place, yeah. So, um,
absolutely, do this. What? Whatare you interested in, and then
(08:50):
cater your hikes. Don't, don'tlet other people decide where to
go and how to spend yourvacation. That's insane,
Jennie Flaming (08:59):
yeah. And I the one thing I would say about that
Craig is it definitely helps if,instead of saying I'm coming to
Washington, where should I hike,or I'm going to LA, where should
I hike, you can get betterinformation by asking something
more specific, right? So insteadof, hey, what's a great hike to
(09:24):
do with kids near Seattle, tosay, instead, I would love to do
a hike with my kids this summer.
It'd be great if it's not morethan an hour drive from where I
live in Bellevue, where I livein Lynwood, where I live in
Seattle, where I live in FederalWay, my child has never hiked
before. That's a differentquestion from I am looking for
(09:50):
some new hikes to do with mychild. He or she has done.
Several hikes, and they've gotabout two miles in them or five
miles in them, and they've donereally well with steep hikes. Or
steep hikes haven't been great,but like flat hikes, they can go
(10:10):
for a long time, right? So thatis a totally different question.
Both of those questions are,what's a great hike with kids
near Seattle, but you're goingto get a totally unhelpful
answer if you don't provide alittle more info, which I think
it's related to what you'resaying. But like, there's also
the I'm looking for a hike,because it's useless to say I'm
(10:35):
looking for an easy hike, or I'mlooking for any word like that.
We've talked about the wordeasy. It's a useless word when
it comes to hiking, because forsome people, I have heard people
say mailbox peak is easy.
Mailbox peak is not easy, likein no planet is it easy, right?
(10:58):
So, um, but I think a betterexample is a hike. I'm thinking
of a super popular hike nearSeattle, let's say rattlesnake
ledge, the I 90 corridor, yeah.
Is that an easy hike? Somepeople will say yes. Some people
will really struggle with thathike, right? So you kind of need
(11:19):
to know when you're askingsomeone for advice, what am I
looking for? Like you said, Ilike old growth forest, right? I
might so if, if I am like a viewperson or a waterfall person,
I'm always going to recommend awaterfall or a view hike to you,
but you really want to see somecool forests, like, how could I
(11:44):
know that if you didn't tell me?
So I think that's reallyimportant when looking for
advice, is to, instead of sayingI'm looking for an easy hike,
say I'm looking for a flat hike,or I'm looking for a hike that
is not more than three miles.
And the trouble
Craig Romano (12:03):
is, a lot of these posts, I see it just people are
lazy. If you're down like lazy,they're coming. I'm coming. You
know, let me think, Where do Ihike? I mean, you can't get any
more lazy than that. And so thatwould warrant the type of, well,
why put any effort into theresponse for that? But it's
always funny, because a lot ofpeople will chime in no matter
what, because they always wantto put their point in. But
again, you don't know whatyou're going to get so and
(12:24):
again, this is one of the thingsI'm constantly teaching my son
about anything about putting theeffort into something, and if
you're asking somebody to giveup some time and your expertise
to give you really goodinformation, yeah, have the
common courtesy to actually takethe time, and, you know, to ask
a really good question and thinkabout it, instead of just
shooting into the wind and, youknow, you'll hit something, but,
yeah, but you want to be morespecific, so you're same thing I
(12:47):
get, I get letters to mesometimes, you know, writer and
I will take an amazing amountsof time to respond back to one
of my readers who actuallywrites something that's taken
time and a lot of thought thansomeone who I can obviously see
is someone trying to getinformation out of me for
nothing. Probably doesn't evenbuy my books, doesn't even,
doesn't even address me. I mean,it's like, I mean, every three
(13:09):
days, why do I? Why am I goingto respond to that? So
Jennie Flaming (13:14):
yeah, that happens to me quite a bit too
typically when people areemailing me for advice that's
related to Alaska travel,because that's another part of
my business. And I haven'twritten 27 guidebooks about
hiking in Washington, like youhave. I haven't written any
guidebooks. Um, so, so ifsomeone emails me and they say
(13:35):
something like, where, whereshould I go in Alaska? Like,
well, I need you to give me alot more information. Who's
going, what do you like to dowhen you travel? What kind of
places? So if someone says, Whatshould I do, or is visiting a
glacier worth it? Impossiblequestion to answer. But if
(13:59):
instead they say, I really wantto see glaciers, but I I'm going
to be in this area, or I don'thave much time, or I don't want
to go on a flight scene trip.
Well, that gives me so much morethat I can use to give them an
answer. So kind of back tofinding our own hike. Listeners,
if you like me, have not written27 guidebooks like Craig has.
(14:24):
You know, you might be thinking,well, Craig, of course, you've
always got these unholyuncrowded hikes just in your
head. And you do that's one ofthe reasons we're doing this
podcast.
Craig Romano (14:37):
Find them when they hike in California, New
Hampshire, too. Exactly.
Methods, yeah,
Jennie Flaming (14:41):
yes. And you know, you found them to write
your guidebook. So if you arelistening to this and you're
like, Oh, I really want tofigure out how to find my own
hike, but I am, you know,working 50 hours a week in an
office job. How am I going to dothis? I want to just recommend a
couple shortcuts. One of them isCraig in your more recent books.
(15:05):
I don't know. Maybe you can tellus when you started doing this.
I love that you have a crowdrating for each hike. So if
you're listening and you haven'tread one of Craig's books, he's
got this thing that'll be likethis hike crowds, and it's like
a one through five rating, andfive is like, don't bother if
(15:27):
it's a weekend. And one is like,Good luck finding this. So that
is a fantastic shortcut forsomeone, say, like me that isn't
living and breathing trails asmy full time job, right? So I
want to throw that one outthere, and then the other one
(15:47):
Craig and I have both mentionedthis already, is Washington
Trails Association trip reports.
And not just trip reports, butalso the hiking guide. So you
can filter it by things like,I'm looking for a wildflower
hike, right? Or I'm looking fora fall color hike, or I'm
looking for a river hike, orwhatever. There are these
(16:10):
different features. And then youcan also filter it by how much
distance, like how long of ahike and how much elevation
gain, and it'll give you, youknow, a lot of different
options. And then from there,you can go and read the trip
reports, which is helpful toknow how accessible it is. But
if there's one trip report forthat trail in the last year,
(16:33):
it's not going to be crowded,right? So those are a couple
like shortcuts, hacks, that Iwould recommend people consider
it to you, right?
Craig Romano (16:43):
Jennie, I definitely talked about that's a
great way of seeing how populartrail is. The other thing too,
again, this is where you canpull in your all trails too.
When I am traveling in an areaand there aren't many sources at
all, and I find a trail that Imight be interested in, just
type in all trails. It'll beinteresting sometimes, because
it might not even show up on alltrails. And when that happens,
like, my god, it's not even onall. That means nobody's on this
(17:05):
trail. Bingo. And then, ofcourse, the other things to to
to look for just general rules,General, but not always. If
you're trying to find thosealternative if you if you're
trying to find the most popular,crowded places, well, that's
different. But if you're tryingto find a different experience
in general, you want to stayaway from the major metropolitan
areas, but not always, and fromthe major parks, the big
(17:27):
national parks, and lots oftimes, one of the things we've
talked about a lot trial, I likethe secondary parks, the parks
that that people aren't going toso last year, I spent a couple
days in Congre National Park inSouth Carolina. What it's one of
the least visited the NationalParks is amazing. I spent a day
kayaking there with the group,incredible, and a day hiking
(17:48):
there, and no crowds, and westayed in a hotel, but you could
have just showed up and campedif you wanted to. Yeah. So I've
had a lot of experiences likethat. Chiricahua National
Monument in Arizona is anotherone of my favorites. I've been
there several times. It's neverbeen crowded when I'm there. So
a lot. And I'll tell you what Ilove about a lot of these
secondary national I might callthem, say they're just, I mean,
(18:09):
they're not saying they arestill top notch and everything.
Alright, they're
Jennie Flaming (18:12):
not, they're not famous like Yosemite and Matt
Rainier and Olympic and Denali,right? And
Craig Romano (18:18):
in many respects.
So you're going to get a betterexperience, one you can even
get, you get to know a rangertalk you're going to have,
because the Rangers aren't goingto be, you know, just inundated
by people and questions and out,you know, telling people stop
picking the flowers. So I've hadsome amazing experiences at at
these other parks. I absolutelylove. Matter of fact. Same thing
as to take national wildlife,National Seashore. This is a
(18:41):
seashore that is two hours fromWashington, DC, in Baltimore. I
was there on a beautiful day inSeptember, walking the beach
with nobody. So they exist.
These places exist. So seek themout, yeah, and you'll get an
amazing experience. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming (19:01):
I totally agree.
And one more thing I want to addabout this, especially if you're
you know, we didn't reallyintend to do this, but I think
it's cool that we did where wetalked about how to find hikes
while you're traveling as well,because I'm sure many of our
listeners are going to betraveling somewhere, maybe in
Washington, but maybe outside ofWashington,
Craig Romano (19:23):
outside of Washington, yes in his podcast,
Jennie Flaming (19:26):
yeah. So another thing I want to just sort of
pull together here related towhat Craig was just saying
about, you know, less visitedplaces overall, and what I was
saying earlier about specificsin your questions, one wonderful
way that I have found to foundhikes, especially in national
(19:49):
parks or any public land with avisitor center that's open and
staffed. So we have a lot ofquestions around that in 2020,
Five right now. But if you canfind that asking, you know,
there's all kinds of peoplecoming in and saying to a
ranger, where can I hike? Rightbut if you come in and you say,
(20:15):
I would love to find a hike withsolitude, and I don't mind if it
doesn't have views of whatever,or I don't mind if it's not this
famous place, they'll tell you.
And you could even say, like,where would you go for a hike on
your day off? And they'll tellyou, right? And you could say,
Hey, I'm up for a hike that's,you know, up to five miles long,
(20:37):
or up to 10 miles long, and hasup to 2000 feet of climbing, or
500 feet of climbing, or noclimbing. These are people who
know this park intimately, andthey're going to have amazing
some of the best hikes I've donein national parks. I have found
that way. So I just want to knowyour Rangers do that
Craig Romano (20:59):
a lot of fun.
Years ago, I was in the AbruzziNational Park in the Apennines
of Italy. I spent a week there,and I stood out because I was, I
was the, I'm of Italian origin.
I was the only American there,but I got to wait. You're
Italian. I never told anybody
Jennie Flaming (21:17):
that you never came up before.
Craig Romano (21:20):
I tell you, it has its advantages when you're
traveling Italy. So I got toknow the ranger at the station.
We do espresso shots, doespresso shots in the morning
and talk, and I got so muchgreat information. Even towards
the end, you have to the pointwhere I do these one way hikes,
and people would pick me up tobring me back. Well, that's the
American who's hanging out inget to know your Rangers. And I
had this amazing and again,here's another thing. I was in
(21:42):
the happenings where noAmericans go because they're all
in the Alps, and that aloneitself. Again, I'm in this
national park that is wide openbecause the Americans, the
typical Americans, to do theirone Europe trip, is trying to do
all the famous places, one in arow, they're not going to go
there. I spent a week in thisobscure Park, yeah, which is out
(22:02):
of this world. Is bear, one ofthe few places where bears still
live in Italy. It's just anincredible place, yeah. So to
me, again, that's half, half thefun discovery. And how did I
find this place? I'm justintrigued by reading the map and
like, what is this mountainrange, and what is this national
park, and what's here? And youlearn, you know, again, have
(22:24):
that sense of discovery. It isso important to me. Half the fun
of again, of going someplace, isthe anticipation of getting
there. I spend months planningtrips and places, and I'm just
so excited, because I lovediscovery. It makes life, you
know, it's the spice of life. Itreally is, yeah,
Jennie Flaming (22:41):
love it cool.
Okay, everybody, well, hopefullywe have inspired you to find
some new places to hike thissummer, and if you find one you
love that you don't mindsharing, send us a text from the
show notes. And we love hearingfrom you, so please tell us your
thoughts. All right. Bye fornow. All right. Ciao, if you're
(23:03):
enjoying the podcast, we wouldlove to have you leave us a
rating or review wherever you'relistening that will really help
other people find us. And don'tforget, there's a link to
Craig's books and my email listin the show notes. If you'd like
to connect with us and supportus, you can always leave us a
tip in the show notes. You.
Jennie, welcome to the Washington State hiking
(00:07):
podcast. I'm your host. JennieThwing Flaming,
Craig Romano (00:10):
and I'm your co host, Craig Romano, Craig
Jennie Flaming (00:12):
and I are happy to have you here. We provide
practical and timely, seasonalhiking advice for hikers, trail
runners and potential hikers andtrail runners of all skill and
ability levels that is helpful,accurate, fun and inclusive.
Craig Romano (00:32):
Hey, Craig, how's it going? Jennie, excellent.
Beautiful day out today. Thesunshine. I love this time of
year. The days are maximumdaylight right now, it's just my
favorite time. I say this abouteverything. It's my favorite
time. Like,
Jennie Flaming (00:49):
I say that a lot too. If people are
Craig Romano (00:51):
gonna think we're lying all the time, right?
Anybody who's ever, ever youknow, comedating my
presentations, right? Look, it'slike one of the continuous
things I say all the time. Isthis one of my favorites. I
would be wonderful if I had 12children, because I could never
be accused of having onefavorite. Yes, but I only have
one child, and he is myfavorite. So
Jennie Flaming (01:10):
you're kind of wasting that on being a parent
of an only child. Oh, that'shilarious. Okay. Well, it is
officially summer now, and so weknow that this means this the
next couple months are when ourhiking trails, especially the
most popular ones that you wouldsee on every like top 10 hikes
(01:31):
in Washington, um, are reallygoing to be slammed with people.
So today we're talking about howto help people find kind of
their own hike and, like, lookaround at what's out there and
just make some decisions about aplace to go that maybe will be
(01:53):
pretty far away from crowds. SoI know this is something both
you and I do. So what's youradvice about this
Craig Romano (02:00):
crowd? We're gonna say, with that said, the first
thing I want everybody out thereto do so that turn off Instagram
right now. Turn it off for thismonth. No, turn it off. You're
not going to look at Instagram.
Okay, yeah, um, so
Jennie Flaming (02:14):
because, just a obvious pro tip, if it's on
everybody's like, top 10 hikesthing, then it's going to be
crowded. If you like Google top10 hikes of in Washington and
get a bunch of whatever, thoseare going to be crowded. So,
yes, get away from that. Listento us instead.
Craig Romano (02:33):
No, I don't want to, you know, toot my own horn
here, because I am on Instagramas well as Jay. Yes, I, I tend
to post places that you mightnot have heard. So me too. You
can look at our Instagram. Yes,it's been nobody else's,
especially the ones that arebeing you know, they're being
paid to promote these popularplaces, which we are not. Yeah.
(02:55):
Anyhow, I'm old school. I'vebeen hiking for a long time,
well before there was any suchthing as the internet, and even
though I've embraced all thelatest gizmos and gadgets and
everything when it comes tofinding my own hike, I'm still
old school. Now, first of all,in the state of Washington, I
It's hard for me to find my ownhigh because I've written 27
(03:17):
books and I've found all thehikes. But yes, but I do travel
very frequently outside thearea, and I hike. And this may
come to a shock to a lot ofpeople, especially to the
younger sect. I don't go to alltrails. I i Lots of times. First
of all, like I spend a lot oftime in California, I look for
someone like me. I look for theguidebook author down there, who
(03:39):
really knows the material. Who'swritten a lot, knows the area's
been around for a while. I dothat a lot. But you know, even
before that, when I'm travelingplaces, what I love to do. And
again, this is becoming a lostart, with a lot of younger
people reading a map. Because,you know, Google Maps is
punching everything. I get mapswherever I go when I travel and
(04:01):
I it's like, it's likeChristmas. I open up a map, it's
like a gift. I open that thingup, put it on the table, and I
just look at it. And thingsstart popping up at me, state
parks, national parks, railtrip, and whatever picks my
interest on there, like, Ooh,that sounds kind of cool,
especially the ones that are farfrom the cities and kind of the
obscure places, and then I startdoing my research. And so this
(04:23):
is where the internet comes in.
I will go to the state park ofthat area, you know, the Kansas
Department of Parks, and findout what's there, you know, or
same thing for a rail trail. Andso I'm looking at the official
sources. I'm not looking for thecrowd based stuff that just
which is going to tell meanything. I'm looking for that.
And then if I want to go fartherand that look more, I'll seek
(04:43):
out if there's clubs, is there aclub in this area that that has
so here in Washington, we havegreat resources. We have the
Washington Trails Association.
So I look for equivalents likethat when I'm traveling to get
because I want reliableinformation. The trouble with.
With, with all trails and a lotof these other web based map
(05:06):
apps and everything, they arecrowdsource, and they're not
being monitored. And this is thething. So even though there's
good information on there,there's still a lot of garbage
on there. And if you're new toan area, you're not going to
know the difference. And so ifyou're new to hiking, you should
definitely go to reliablesources where all trails would
make sense. After you go throughall your reliable sources, now
(05:28):
you're ready to hit that maybelet's see if somebody's been on
this trail in the last couple ofweeks to see what the conditions
are like. That's where I'd findthat application good, but I
would never use it. I agree.
Primary Source never, ever usethat's my primary
Jennie Flaming (05:41):
source. Yeah.
And in Washington State, the WTAtrail or w the Washington Trails
Association trip reports areeven better. But, you know, not
every state has that, so I agreewith you about that current
Craig Romano (05:55):
condition. The biggest difference between the
WTA and their database and a lotof these web based mapping
there's a lot of them out there.
Is that WTA is actually anorganization that's devoted to
hikers. It's all about hikers,whereas a lot of these other
organizations, this is a bunchof techies just with their
algorithms making money. They'renot they're probably some
exceptions in there. So hear meout. But the thing is, a lot of
(06:18):
it is just make money, throw abunch of trails up there, get
people hooked, have them, havethem put their own data. So we
don't have to do that, get thealgorithms going in there and
just let it fly without payingattention. And that's why you're
going to have, you're going tohave trails showing up on these
things that aren't official,they're routes. They're getting
all kinds of trouble with that,because they could be
trespassing. And I've seen it.
(06:40):
It's crazy where a group likeWTA and your official websites
with clubs and park sites arenot going to have that on there.
They're going to have theofficial and they're also going
to have the official informationand the rules what needs to be
done. You're going to see thingson a lot of these dogs where
they shouldn't be. I mean, justrule breaking mountain, but
(07:00):
because there's no oversight toit, it's just let it go and let
the algorithms do their trick.
So that's my biggest problemwith those sites.
Jennie Flaming (07:09):
Yeah, I agree with you about that. Okay, well,
those are all really great tips.
Any others before I share a fewof mine, which are not
surprisingly, pretty similar.
Craig Romano (07:19):
Yeah, the other thing too, again, and this is
the other thing, which I findfascinating, again, from the old
school. And I it just blows meaway. When I'll be on on the web
and looking and people will justpop up. I'm coming out to
Washington for a week. Tell mewhere I should hike this. This
cracks me up. It's like I'mgoing to New York. Tell me how
(07:39):
to dress for this affair. Youhave no idea who I am, what I
what, and so I see the sametime, and then I watch people
chime in from like, the mostridiculous, oh, just do this
easy walk to the most crazy, youknow, rope. And not even knowing
what people are, know yourselfwhat you want in your own
interest, and realize that abunch of strangers are only
going to chime in about whatinterests them, yeah, um, and so
(08:03):
I see this stuff, and plus halfthe time, more than the majority
of time, they're going to tellyou to go to the most popular,
crowded places. Again, likeeverybody else, that's them,
yeah? So stop doing that.
That's, you know, the thing is,for me, half of the journey. And
again, I love, you know, I'm ahistory geek, you know, from I
love doing my own research,discovery. That sense of
discovery half the fun to mewhen I go to a new place is
(08:25):
finding it. I those maps, thosebooks, and then getting there
without seeing pictures on theinternet, without people telling
me how great it is, hitting himlike, Oh, my God, this place is
incredible. I can't even imagineit was like this. Um, so I know
my interests. I love, I love oldgrowth forests. I love the
obscure. Give me the mostobscure place, yeah. So, um,
absolutely, do this. What? Whatare you interested in, and then
(08:50):
cater your hikes. Don't, don'tlet other people decide where to
go and how to spend yourvacation. That's insane,
Jennie Flaming (08:59):
yeah. And I the one thing I would say about that
Craig is it definitely helps if,instead of saying I'm coming to
Washington, where should I hike,or I'm going to LA, where should
I hike, you can get betterinformation by asking something
more specific, right? So insteadof, hey, what's a great hike to
(09:24):
do with kids near Seattle, tosay, instead, I would love to do
a hike with my kids this summer.
It'd be great if it's not morethan an hour drive from where I
live in Bellevue, where I livein Lynwood, where I live in
Seattle, where I live in FederalWay, my child has never hiked
before. That's a differentquestion from I am looking for
(09:50):
some new hikes to do with mychild. He or she has done.
Several hikes, and they've gotabout two miles in them or five
miles in them, and they've donereally well with steep hikes. Or
steep hikes haven't been great,but like flat hikes, they can go
(10:10):
for a long time, right? So thatis a totally different question.
Both of those questions are,what's a great hike with kids
near Seattle, but you're goingto get a totally unhelpful
answer if you don't provide alittle more info, which I think
it's related to what you'resaying. But like, there's also
the I'm looking for a hike,because it's useless to say I'm
(10:35):
looking for an easy hike, or I'mlooking for any word like that.
We've talked about the wordeasy. It's a useless word when
it comes to hiking, because forsome people, I have heard people
say mailbox peak is easy.
Mailbox peak is not easy, likein no planet is it easy, right?
(10:58):
So, um, but I think a betterexample is a hike. I'm thinking
of a super popular hike nearSeattle, let's say rattlesnake
ledge, the I 90 corridor, yeah.
Is that an easy hike? Somepeople will say yes. Some people
will really struggle with thathike, right? So you kind of need
(11:19):
to know when you're askingsomeone for advice, what am I
looking for? Like you said, Ilike old growth forest, right? I
might so if, if I am like a viewperson or a waterfall person,
I'm always going to recommend awaterfall or a view hike to you,
but you really want to see somecool forests, like, how could I
(11:44):
know that if you didn't tell me?
So I think that's reallyimportant when looking for
advice, is to, instead of sayingI'm looking for an easy hike,
say I'm looking for a flat hike,or I'm looking for a hike that
is not more than three miles.
And the trouble
Craig Romano (12:03):
is, a lot of these posts, I see it just people are
lazy. If you're down like lazy,they're coming. I'm coming. You
know, let me think, Where do Ihike? I mean, you can't get any
more lazy than that. And so thatwould warrant the type of, well,
why put any effort into theresponse for that? But it's
always funny, because a lot ofpeople will chime in no matter
what, because they always wantto put their point in. But
again, you don't know whatyou're going to get so and
(12:24):
again, this is one of the thingsI'm constantly teaching my son
about anything about putting theeffort into something, and if
you're asking somebody to giveup some time and your expertise
to give you really goodinformation, yeah, have the
common courtesy to actually takethe time, and, you know, to ask
a really good question and thinkabout it, instead of just
shooting into the wind and, youknow, you'll hit something, but,
yeah, but you want to be morespecific, so you're same thing I
(12:47):
get, I get letters to mesometimes, you know, writer and
I will take an amazing amountsof time to respond back to one
of my readers who actuallywrites something that's taken
time and a lot of thought thansomeone who I can obviously see
is someone trying to getinformation out of me for
nothing. Probably doesn't evenbuy my books, doesn't even,
doesn't even address me. I mean,it's like, I mean, every three
(13:09):
days, why do I? Why am I goingto respond to that? So
Jennie Flaming (13:14):
yeah, that happens to me quite a bit too
typically when people areemailing me for advice that's
related to Alaska travel,because that's another part of
my business. And I haven'twritten 27 guidebooks about
hiking in Washington, like youhave. I haven't written any
guidebooks. Um, so, so ifsomeone emails me and they say
(13:35):
something like, where, whereshould I go in Alaska? Like,
well, I need you to give me alot more information. Who's
going, what do you like to dowhen you travel? What kind of
places? So if someone says, Whatshould I do, or is visiting a
glacier worth it? Impossiblequestion to answer. But if
(13:59):
instead they say, I really wantto see glaciers, but I I'm going
to be in this area, or I don'thave much time, or I don't want
to go on a flight scene trip.
Well, that gives me so much morethat I can use to give them an
answer. So kind of back tofinding our own hike. Listeners,
if you like me, have not written27 guidebooks like Craig has.
(14:24):
You know, you might be thinking,well, Craig, of course, you've
always got these unholyuncrowded hikes just in your
head. And you do that's one ofthe reasons we're doing this
podcast.
Craig Romano (14:37):
Find them when they hike in California, New
Hampshire, too. Exactly.
Methods, yeah,
Jennie Flaming (14:41):
yes. And you know, you found them to write
your guidebook. So if you arelistening to this and you're
like, Oh, I really want tofigure out how to find my own
hike, but I am, you know,working 50 hours a week in an
office job. How am I going to dothis? I want to just recommend a
couple shortcuts. One of them isCraig in your more recent books.
(15:05):
I don't know. Maybe you can tellus when you started doing this.
I love that you have a crowdrating for each hike. So if
you're listening and you haven'tread one of Craig's books, he's
got this thing that'll be likethis hike crowds, and it's like
a one through five rating, andfive is like, don't bother if
(15:27):
it's a weekend. And one is like,Good luck finding this. So that
is a fantastic shortcut forsomeone, say, like me that isn't
living and breathing trails asmy full time job, right? So I
want to throw that one outthere, and then the other one
(15:47):
Craig and I have both mentionedthis already, is Washington
Trails Association trip reports.
And not just trip reports, butalso the hiking guide. So you
can filter it by things like,I'm looking for a wildflower
hike, right? Or I'm looking fora fall color hike, or I'm
looking for a river hike, orwhatever. There are these
(16:10):
different features. And then youcan also filter it by how much
distance, like how long of ahike and how much elevation
gain, and it'll give you, youknow, a lot of different
options. And then from there,you can go and read the trip
reports, which is helpful toknow how accessible it is. But
if there's one trip report forthat trail in the last year,
(16:33):
it's not going to be crowded,right? So those are a couple
like shortcuts, hacks, that Iwould recommend people consider
it to you, right?
Craig Romano (16:43):
Jennie, I definitely talked about that's a
great way of seeing how populartrail is. The other thing too,
again, this is where you canpull in your all trails too.
When I am traveling in an areaand there aren't many sources at
all, and I find a trail that Imight be interested in, just
type in all trails. It'll beinteresting sometimes, because
it might not even show up on alltrails. And when that happens,
like, my god, it's not even onall. That means nobody's on this
(17:05):
trail. Bingo. And then, ofcourse, the other things to to
to look for just general rules,General, but not always. If
you're trying to find thosealternative if you if you're
trying to find the most popular,crowded places, well, that's
different. But if you're tryingto find a different experience
in general, you want to stayaway from the major metropolitan
areas, but not always, and fromthe major parks, the big
(17:27):
national parks, and lots oftimes, one of the things we've
talked about a lot trial, I likethe secondary parks, the parks
that that people aren't going toso last year, I spent a couple
days in Congre National Park inSouth Carolina. What it's one of
the least visited the NationalParks is amazing. I spent a day
kayaking there with the group,incredible, and a day hiking
(17:48):
there, and no crowds, and westayed in a hotel, but you could
have just showed up and campedif you wanted to. Yeah. So I've
had a lot of experiences likethat. Chiricahua National
Monument in Arizona is anotherone of my favorites. I've been
there several times. It's neverbeen crowded when I'm there. So
a lot. And I'll tell you what Ilove about a lot of these
secondary national I might callthem, say they're just, I mean,
(18:09):
they're not saying they arestill top notch and everything.
Alright, they're
Jennie Flaming (18:12):
not, they're not famous like Yosemite and Matt
Rainier and Olympic and Denali,right? And
Craig Romano (18:18):
in many respects.
So you're going to get a betterexperience, one you can even
get, you get to know a rangertalk you're going to have,
because the Rangers aren't goingto be, you know, just inundated
by people and questions and out,you know, telling people stop
picking the flowers. So I've hadsome amazing experiences at at
these other parks. I absolutelylove. Matter of fact. Same thing
as to take national wildlife,National Seashore. This is a
(18:41):
seashore that is two hours fromWashington, DC, in Baltimore. I
was there on a beautiful day inSeptember, walking the beach
with nobody. So they exist.
These places exist. So seek themout, yeah, and you'll get an
amazing experience. Yeah,
Jennie Flaming (19:01):
I totally agree.
And one more thing I want to addabout this, especially if you're
you know, we didn't reallyintend to do this, but I think
it's cool that we did where wetalked about how to find hikes
while you're traveling as well,because I'm sure many of our
listeners are going to betraveling somewhere, maybe in
Washington, but maybe outside ofWashington,
Craig Romano (19:23):
outside of Washington, yes in his podcast,
Jennie Flaming (19:26):
yeah. So another thing I want to just sort of
pull together here related towhat Craig was just saying
about, you know, less visitedplaces overall, and what I was
saying earlier about specificsin your questions, one wonderful
way that I have found to foundhikes, especially in national
(19:49):
parks or any public land with avisitor center that's open and
staffed. So we have a lot ofquestions around that in 2020,
Five right now. But if you canfind that asking, you know,
there's all kinds of peoplecoming in and saying to a
ranger, where can I hike? Rightbut if you come in and you say,
(20:15):
I would love to find a hike withsolitude, and I don't mind if it
doesn't have views of whatever,or I don't mind if it's not this
famous place, they'll tell you.
And you could even say, like,where would you go for a hike on
your day off? And they'll tellyou, right? And you could say,
Hey, I'm up for a hike that's,you know, up to five miles long,
(20:37):
or up to 10 miles long, and hasup to 2000 feet of climbing, or
500 feet of climbing, or noclimbing. These are people who
know this park intimately, andthey're going to have amazing
some of the best hikes I've donein national parks. I have found
that way. So I just want to knowyour Rangers do that
Craig Romano (20:59):
a lot of fun.
Years ago, I was in the AbruzziNational Park in the Apennines
of Italy. I spent a week there,and I stood out because I was, I
was the, I'm of Italian origin.
I was the only American there,but I got to wait. You're
Italian. I never told anybody
Jennie Flaming (21:17):
that you never came up before.
Craig Romano (21:20):
I tell you, it has its advantages when you're
traveling Italy. So I got toknow the ranger at the station.
We do espresso shots, doespresso shots in the morning
and talk, and I got so muchgreat information. Even towards
the end, you have to the pointwhere I do these one way hikes,
and people would pick me up tobring me back. Well, that's the
American who's hanging out inget to know your Rangers. And I
had this amazing and again,here's another thing. I was in
(21:42):
the happenings where noAmericans go because they're all
in the Alps, and that aloneitself. Again, I'm in this
national park that is wide openbecause the Americans, the
typical Americans, to do theirone Europe trip, is trying to do
all the famous places, one in arow, they're not going to go
there. I spent a week in thisobscure Park, yeah, which is out
(22:02):
of this world. Is bear, one ofthe few places where bears still
live in Italy. It's just anincredible place, yeah. So to
me, again, that's half, half thefun discovery. And how did I
find this place? I'm justintrigued by reading the map and
like, what is this mountainrange, and what is this national
park, and what's here? And youlearn, you know, again, have
(22:24):
that sense of discovery. It isso important to me. Half the fun
of again, of going someplace, isthe anticipation of getting
there. I spend months planningtrips and places, and I'm just
so excited, because I lovediscovery. It makes life, you
know, it's the spice of life. Itreally is, yeah,
Jennie Flaming (22:41):
love it cool.
Okay, everybody, well, hopefullywe have inspired you to find
some new places to hike thissummer, and if you find one you
love that you don't mindsharing, send us a text from the
show notes. And we love hearingfrom you, so please tell us your
thoughts. All right. Bye fornow. All right. Ciao, if you're
(23:03):
enjoying the podcast, we wouldlove to have you leave us a
rating or review wherever you'relistening that will really help
other people find us. And don'tforget, there's a link to
Craig's books and my email listin the show notes. If you'd like
to connect with us and supportus, you can always leave us a
tip in the show notes. You.
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